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Oracle's Java Policies Are Destroying the Community

Unknown Lamer posted more than 3 years ago | from the shares-in-haskell-inc-up-ten-points dept.

Java 314

snydeq writes "Neil McAllister sees Oracle's buggy Java SE 7 release as only the latest misstep in a mounting litany of bad behavior. 'Who was the first to alert the Java community? The Apache Foundation. Oh, the irony. This is the same Apache Foundation that resigned from the Java Community Process executive committee in protest after Oracle repeatedly refused to give it access to the Java Technology Compatibility Kit,' McAllister writes. 'It seems as if Oracle would like nothing better than to stomp Apache and its open source Java efforts clean out of existence.'"

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Oracle is awesome (0, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#36985898)

Die, Java, die!

Java, truley an American icon (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#36985934)

Java is dead, and nothing of value was lost.

Re:Java, truley an American icon (2)

fuzzytv (2108482) | more than 3 years ago | (#36986096)

Java is not dead. Maybe it's not the hip language anymore, but it definitely is not dead.

Re:Java, truley an American icon (2)

jojoba_oil (1071932) | more than 3 years ago | (#36986228)

Java is not dead. Maybe it's not the hip language anymore, but it definitely is not dead.

Just like COBOL is not dead. Sure, it's not the hip language, but so many legacy systems are built on it that it's basically guaranteed to live for quite a while longer. I suspect Java will have the same fate.

Re:Java, truley an American icon (1)

Hylandr (813770) | more than 3 years ago | (#36986326)

OP didn't claim it was dead. It sounded to me like he *wanted* it dead. Add me to that list please.

Wait, this is America, and people spent money in College learning it. Perhaps the government should subsidy the language and offer incentives to companies that hire these people...

- Dan.

Re:Java, truley an American icon (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#36986434)

Wait, this is America, and people spent money in College learning it. Perhaps the government should subsidy the language and offer incentives to companies that hire these people...

Wow. Where the hell did that come from? Your guy on the radio got you all worked up again?

Re:Java, truley an American icon (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#36986540)

Wait, this is America, and people spent money in College learning it. Perhaps the government should subsidy the language and offer incentives to companies that hire these people...

Subsidy is a noun. Please try to look less retarded while saying retarded things.

Re:Java, truley an American icon (5, Insightful)

Applekid (993327) | more than 3 years ago | (#36986544)

OP didn't claim it was dead. It sounded to me like he *wanted* it dead. Add me to that list please.

Wait, this is America, and people spent money in College learning it. Perhaps the government should subsidy the language and offer incentives to companies that hire these people...

- Dan.

My sarcasm detector needs calibration, but, in the meantime, those who spent money in college learning a language and not the concepts behind the language got ripped off. Give fish vs teach fishing and all that jazz.

Re:Java, truley an American icon (1)

Hylandr (813770) | more than 3 years ago | (#36986642)

Someone Mod this guy up...

- Dan.

Re:Java, truley an American icon (1)

dougmc (70836) | more than 3 years ago | (#36986362)

> but so many legacy systems are built on it [Java] that it's basically guaranteed to live for quite a while longer

I imagine that nobody is writing new applications in COBOL. New applications are written in Java every day.

Java may not be the hip new thing anymore, but it's being developed for heavily.

It took COBOL over 30 years to reach this point. Perhaps Java will reach the same point, but I'll bet it takes decades ... for now, it's alive and well. (Perhaps there's been a buggy new release, but all the applications using older releases are fine, with new applications made all the time.)

Re:Java, truley an American icon (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#36986458)

My company IS writing new COBOL apps, it makes me sad.

Re:Java, truley an American icon (1)

fuzzytv (2108482) | more than 3 years ago | (#36986516)

Yes, that's the fate of all languages. But the fact that you know how to build a rocket engine does not make combustion engines immediately dead.

COBOL is dead, or maybe in coma - it's not used for development any more, except for maintenance of legacy systems.

Java is probably the most used language of today. There are other popular languages - some older than Java (e.g. C), some younger (Python, Ruby) - but none of them is used as often as Java. This is not going to change in the near future (say 10 years), because the companies have invested so much into the whole ecosystem and there's no reason to ditch Java. Moreover there's no other language with a comparably rich ecosystem.

But I admit that with enough stupid steps from Oracle, this can change pretty fast.

Re:Java, truley an American icon (1)

DrXym (126579) | more than 3 years ago | (#36986530)

Just like COBOL is not dead. Sure, it's not the hip language, but so many legacy systems are built on it that it's basically guaranteed to live for quite a while longer. I suspect Java will have the same fate.

Java is not remotely in anywhere the same situation as Cobol. Java jobs are plentiful as is the development scene which covers everything from Android all the way up to big iron. There really isn't much to challenge the language at present though given Oracle's pathetic stewardship perhaps there should be.

Re:Oracle is awesome (1)

Mordok-DestroyerOfWo (1000167) | more than 3 years ago | (#36986524)

Die, Java, die!

It is German for The, Java, the. And as we all know, nobody who speaks German can be evil.

Re:Oracle is awesome (1)

pooh666 (624584) | more than 3 years ago | (#36986688)

heh, you beat me to it!!

This is Oracle we are talking about.... (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#36985914)

Really, who didn't see this coming?

Re:This is Oracle we are talking about.... (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#36986030)

Really, who didn't see this coming?

Yes, there are many analogies to be made.

Oracle are like niggers because they are needlessly aggressive and destructive and oppose even people who like them and tend to abandon their bastard children leaving them fatherless. Microsoft is like the rich evil oppressive white guy, The Man who drags you down by being a damned monopolist. Apple is like a bunch of Scientologists, mostly just a bunch of really annoying guys who love the spotlight and set a lot of trends but aren't really a problem for anyone smart enough not to enter the walled garden (ppl who can read a manual and comprehend what they read don't need dumbed down products). Linux is like a bunch of Canadians, eh, they mostly just do their thing and don't bother anybody, they don't go around looking to control shit or using patents and copyrights as a weapon, you're welcome to join them if you want.

Re:This is Oracle we are talking about.... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#36986098)

In all fairness, isn't that what the release candidate is for? Oracle definitely should have tested more thoroughly, but Apache did have the opportunity to test their projects with the release candidate as well. Some bugs are particularly hard to trigger and I can imagine this is one of those, as it may have slipped through the net (both from Oracle and Apache).

Re:This is Oracle we are talking about.... (3, Informative)

mzs (595629) | more than 3 years ago | (#36986702)

Apache did, in fact they reported the trouble five days before the deadline. This was a show stopper, Oracle did not treat it as such, Oracle has a habit of this. What they should have done (keeping in mind how they treat bugs) is released on schedule but with the option disabled. But no this would have been too much of a performance regression, again Oracle has made crazy decisions in the past where they value perceived performance in some benchmark above all other sane reasoning. But really they could have in this case, then around the second or third update have this fixed and it would have been another great release all about improved performance. That would look pretty dang good in comparison to the current situation. It is just that there is clearly some disease that has spread at Oracle, and they can't think things through clearly enough when there is a deadline or benchmark involved.

This isn't a news article. (4, Insightful)

Short Circuit (52384) | more than 3 years ago | (#36986172)

Really, who didn't see this coming?

This isn't a news article. This is an article about two previous [slashdot.org] news articles [slashdot.org] . There's nothing to see coming. Submitted by the author of an article about the two previous stories. Slow news day, I hope; this is just a group-think trajectory thing.

Good, let Java die. (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#36986450)

Java kinda sucks as a language.

Google should designe a better high level language around the LLVM stack while improving the LLVM stack itself.

Boom! Headshot! Java dies!

Look out! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#36985916)

The Java Polices are coming to arrest yous!

Re:Look out! (1)

JamesP (688957) | more than 3 years ago | (#36986268)

Java Police, arrest this man
he talks in NET
He buzzes like C
He's like a detuned VM

This is what you get when you mess with us

Round 1. Fight. (4, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#36985932)

We have the last Java 7 preview (GPL).

Fork the darn thing and see who lives.

Re:Round 1. Fight. (1)

GameboyRMH (1153867) | more than 3 years ago | (#36985992)

+1 for this!

Re:Round 1. Fight. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#36985996)

We could call it coffee!

Re:Round 1. Fight. (2)

hal2814 (725639) | more than 3 years ago | (#36986180)

Coffee? I like it. Java minus the pretentiousness.

Re:Round 1. Fight. (1)

Windwraith (932426) | more than 3 years ago | (#36986022)

It's working for LibreOffice so why not.

Re:Round 1. Fight. (1)

Richard_at_work (517087) | more than 3 years ago | (#36986154)

Is it? I haven't heard much from LibreOffice since they finished merging in the pre-existing patches that Sun weren't willing to accept for OpenOffice.org. Have they actually done much more since then?

Re:Round 1. Fight. (1)

archen (447353) | more than 3 years ago | (#36986590)

It's early to say that LibreOffice isn't going anywhere, when they have years of stagnation to clean up. They've already merged features which never got into OpenOffice and there does appear to be a lot of code cleanup. The changelog does show real improvements, but I can't say if they're going faster than OO ever did since OO tended to be really vague on their development. They do seem to be fairly quiet considering they're picking up the mantle of a pretty significant project.

Re:Round 1. Fight. (3, Informative)

TheEyes (1686556) | more than 3 years ago | (#36986648)

They released version 3.4.2 three days ago [documentfoundation.org] . As I understand it they're mostly working on bug fixes for now--lord knows they need it--and removing as much Java dependence as possible.

Re:Round 1. Fight. (1)

afidel (530433) | more than 3 years ago | (#36986060)

Doesn't help since Oracle owns both the patents and the trademarks on the JAVA brand.

Re:Round 1. Fight. (2)

neokushan (932374) | more than 3 years ago | (#36986066)

That wont work because Oracle will still sue you for patent infringement (See Oracle v. Android).

Re:Round 1. Fight. (1)

Richard_at_work (517087) | more than 3 years ago | (#36986170)

Only if you claim its not Java...

Re:Round 1. Fight. (2)

rvw (755107) | more than 3 years ago | (#36986672)

Only if you claim its not Java...

Just turn it upside down and it becomes "enef", which could be pronounced "enough". That would fit the situation quite well I think.

Re:Round 1. Fight. (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#36986656)

Not if you stick to GPL, unlike MIT or Apache licences the GPL implicitly (GPL2) or explicitly (GPL3+) licences any patents that you own on code that you distributed under that licence to anyone else under the same licence. So if they stick to (L)GPL2 they are safe, for android Goggle chose Apache, but if they created a (L)GPL version it would be immune to the Java patents (but not others).

Re:Round 1. Fight. (1, Insightful)

Anrego (830717) | more than 3 years ago | (#36986138)

Fork the darn thing and see who lives.

With their war chest of patents.. they could litigate any serious competitor into the ground.

Now whether they have any reason to do so is another question.

Personally I'd start transitioning away from Java at this point if possible/practical. It's a shame because it worked really well in a lot of situations :(

Re:Round 1. Fight. (1)

WrongSizeGlass (838941) | more than 3 years ago | (#36986218)

Now whether they have any reason to do so is another question.

They are Oracle and they own the patents & trademarks. Those are the only reasons they need (and frankly, the first one is probably enough for them).

Re:Round 1. Fight. (1)

dAzED1 (33635) | more than 3 years ago | (#36986446)

Microsoft lost on the .NET battle because their efforts were commercial. Quite a lot of things in the OSS community survive (this type battle) based on the fact that they are not commercial - they're community-driven.

Also in the news (4, Funny)

Chrisq (894406) | more than 3 years ago | (#36985944)

It seems as if Oracle would like nothing better than to stomp Apache and its open source Java efforts clean out of existence.

Also in the news. It seems that water makes things wet.

Re:Also in the news (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#36986058)

MySQL, you're next!

Re:Also in the news (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#36986436)

that worries me more than java frankly. I can lose Java, I wouldn't be happy to lose mysql.

Re:Also in the news (1)

cpricejones (950353) | more than 3 years ago | (#36986456)

The guys at Oracle are finally fed up with the constant stream of Java updates.

Oracle damaging the open-source community! GASP! (1)

GameboyRMH (1153867) | more than 3 years ago | (#36985978)

They're Oracle, that's their business model, it's what they do. Convert the goodness of open source communities into money, like a software Gargamel.

What's the next article going to be? Facebook eroding society's expectations of privacy? BP moving fossil carbon into the biosphere?

Re:Oracle damaging the open-source community! GASP (2)

DaleGlass (1068434) | more than 3 years ago | (#36986302)

Except the post is wrong, the article isn't about Oracle damaging the OSS community, it's about them damaging Java.

Releasing a JVM with a serious bug doesn't damage the OSS community. In fact it's an excellent way to give it more influence. Issues like these provide plenty incentive to fork.

The worst case for Oracle would be it goes the way it happened with XFree86: every distribution ships the Apache version, and everybody stops caring about the original project's existence.

Re:Oracle damaging the open-source community! GASP (1)

webheaded (997188) | more than 3 years ago | (#36986382)

It's amazing they took something that was so championed by the open source community and are now driving it into the ground. Do they honestly think people are going to give a shit anymore if they keep trying to screw the community? They're either going to fork it or they're going to move on to something completely different and then Oracle can go fuck themselves. Either way, they really need to learn how to place nice. It's getting ridiculous now.

Re:Oracle damaging the open-source community! GASP (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#36986522)

Wiki sez: In the fictional world of the Smurfs, Gargamel the sorcerer is the sworn enemy of the Smurfs and the principal antagonist in the show and comic books.

Watch me falling asleep over Javatalk (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#36985994)

What uses Java?

1) Minecraft

Meh... I still play Quake III: Arena... like the many years before.. I heard Terraria kicks the shit out of Minecraft...

2) Libreoffice

I rather run Microsoft Office in a Virtual Machine because I just love my Linux so much I don't want to install Java on it.

The End

Re:Watch me falling asleep over Javatalk (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#36986074)

You can use LibreOffice without java. It's just missing a couple features, barely noticeable.

Re:Watch me falling asleep over Javatalk (4, Informative)

pavon (30274) | more than 3 years ago | (#36986258)

And LibreOffice is working on reimplementing many of those features without Java.

Re:Watch me falling asleep over Javatalk (2)

Anrego (830717) | more than 3 years ago | (#36986236)

Slashdot loves to rake on java.. but I always liked it. I don't work with it much any more, but I have fond memories.

Specifically I liked developing with it. Using it is an entirely different matter.. swing based UIs are still generally terrible. From the code side it was nice.

Re:Watch me falling asleep over Javatalk (2)

DrXym (126579) | more than 3 years ago | (#36986640)

Java is fine to develop with but it hasn't kept up with either .NET, nor developments which demand a more modern language. It doesn't support domain specific languages, it's got half baked solutions for generics and other language extensions too fearful to embed stuff in class files. Java 7 is massively overdue and gimped.

Biggest issue for the amount of boiler plate crap. Things like anonymous classes where proper closures would make the code a lot cleaner. Eclipse takes care of a lot of refactoring and cleanup but it's still dealing with a lot of bloat. Other issues would be the heavy reliance on XML for control & configuration of apps. Often times you'll spend more time worrying about configuration than code.

In summary I like Java but it's not improving fast enough.

Re:Watch me falling asleep over Javatalk (2)

lowlymarine (1172723) | more than 3 years ago | (#36986414)

You forgot "two-thirds of the world's smartphones." Android and BlackBerry OS are both heavily dependent on Java.

Maybe I'm just being an idiot... (1)

neokushan (932374) | more than 3 years ago | (#36986050)

...but why is it Ironic that the Apache foundation were the first to warn the community? From reading the summary, it seems highly appropriate that Apache were the first ones to warn the community, not Ironic at all. Unless, of course, I'm missing something (which I suspect I am).

Re:Maybe I'm just being an idiot... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#36986136)

Irony is stated in sentence following "Oh, the irony". "This is the same Apache Foundation that resigned from the Java Community Process executive committee in protest after Oracle repeatedly refused to give it access to the Java Technology Compatibility Kit,' McAllister writes."

Re:Maybe I'm just being an idiot... (1)

neokushan (932374) | more than 3 years ago | (#36986474)

Once again, why does that make it Ironic? Apache had good reason to warn everyone, they got shafted by Oracle. In that instance, it seems highly appropriate that Apache warned the community.

Irony, as defined by http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Irony [reference.com]

an outcome of events contrary to what was, or might have been, expected.

Why would it be unexpected of Apache to warn the community after they resigned from the Java Community Process committee? Surely that's the exact opposite, surely it's expected that Apache would warn the community since they resigned for a reason.

Re:Maybe I'm just being an idiot... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#36986520)

If it makes you feel any better, I was wondering the exact same thing..

Re:Maybe I'm just being an idiot... (2)

Anrego (830717) | more than 3 years ago | (#36986278)

Unless, of course, I'm missing something (which I suspect I am).

Unless I'm missing something also, it's probably the fact that a large majority of the population doesn't actually understand what the the word irony actually means.

Re:Maybe I'm just being an idiot... (1)

softWare3ngineer (2007302) | more than 3 years ago | (#36986342)

I thought the same thing after reading the article. It was their modules that were broken in the release so you would expect them to have more specific automated testing for these areas.

Did anyone else notice... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#36986054)

Larry Ellison is one rich asshole?

Re:Did anyone else notice... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#36986156)

Nah, there's enough hole there for him being at least 3.

Re:Did anyone else notice... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#36986210)

Larry Ellison is one rich asshole?

its:

One
Rich
Asshole
Called
Larry
Ellison

Re:Did anyone else notice... (1)

dr-suess-fan (210327) | more than 3 years ago | (#36986324)

O ne
R ich
A sshole
C alled
L arry
E llison

Re:Did anyone else notice... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#36986628)

yeah from the person who posted the same thing 8 minutes before you plagiarist!!

Isn't most of Java open source? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#36986076)

Didn't Sun open source a HUGE chunk of Java just not long before they collapsed and got revived by the devil, Oracle?

Wouldn't it be easier for the community to just tell Oracle to fork off?

Re:Isn't most of Java open source? (2)

VGPowerlord (621254) | more than 3 years ago | (#36986182)

That entirely depends on how well the GPLv2 protects you from their patents.

Oh, and you can't use the name Java because Sun has it trademarked.

Oh, and no clue what'll happen related to trademarks if you continue to use the word "java" in the various namespaces in the language.

Spelling or word choice? (1)

srg33 (1095679) | more than 3 years ago | (#36986150)

Shouldn't it be "Oracle's Java Policies Are Destroying the Community"?

Java and .NET falling by the wayside? (3, Interesting)

Virtucon (127420) | more than 3 years ago | (#36986166)

It seem strange that Oracle would push people away from Java, especially since Sun spent a great deal of time getting people to adopt it. Now Microsoft seems to have gone soft on .NET which was that technology to compete with Java. Did Oracle somehow make a backroom deal with Microsoft? As I recall the Sun/Microsoft suit prohibited Microsoft from having their own Java implementation, is Microsoft now going to license Java from Oracle as the .NET replacement? This is all speculation but Oracle hasn't done anything good for the things they received in the Sun acquisition, Solaris, Java and SPARC. I realize that Oracle is a big company that likes lots of revenues but it seems to me that Sun market share was on the decline and now Oracle is just shutting the door on what remaining customers they had.

   

Re:Java and .NET falling by the wayside? (1)

characterZer0 (138196) | more than 3 years ago | (#36986390)

Java would not be a suitable replacement for .NET. The purpose of .NET is to keep people on Windows, not give them a migration path away from it.

Re:Java and .NET falling by the wayside? (1)

Richard_at_work (517087) | more than 3 years ago | (#36986538)

Given how well the "write once run anywhere" marketing aspect of Java has basically failed, its no more a migration path than .Net is these days.

Re:Java and .NET falling by the wayside? (1)

0123456 (636235) | more than 3 years ago | (#36986650)

Given how well the "write once run anywhere" marketing aspect of Java has basically failed, its no more a migration path than .Net is these days.

What things won't Java run on? We routinely run the same Java code on Windows and Linux.

Re:Java and .NET falling by the wayside? (1)

medv4380 (1604309) | more than 3 years ago | (#36986554)

Now now, if java is used to replace .net we all know that MS will put back in all the Direct X api's and stuff that got them in trouble with Sun in the first place, and that would keep Java developers and users on Windows.

Re:Java and .NET falling by the wayside? (1)

Svartalf (2997) | more than 3 years ago | (#36986564)

For Microsoft it wouldn't be. For Oracle, it would. :-D

Re:Java and .NET falling by the wayside? (1)

fyndor (895340) | more than 3 years ago | (#36986748)

Java would not be a suitable replacement for .NET. The purpose of .NET is to keep people on Windows, not give them a migration path away from it.

This statement makes no sense given the fact that by the very nature of the .Net, it is cross-platform capable. There seems to be only a small portion of the framework that the Mono crew couldn't move to their platform. Microsoft hasn't done the best job to spread it to other OSes, but if it was meant to keep people on Windows then it was really a poor business decision to make a VM style language framework. .

Re:Java and .NET falling by the wayside? (1)

Anrego (830717) | more than 3 years ago | (#36986462)

It wouldn't surprise me in the least if oracle bought sun just for their IP .. so the could sue the shit outa google.

Java and soon MySQL are just collateral damage.

Re:Java and .NET falling by the wayside? (2)

drolli (522659) | more than 3 years ago | (#36986468)

As I recall the Sun/Microsoft suit prohibited Microsoft from having their own Java implementation,

Wrong. It prohibited them from having an incompatible implementation and calling it java, very similar the current case of oracle vs. google.

in the process against ms it was about the name. in the process against google its about the patents. However the core of both is: work for the platform and fall under special regulations for the platform or not.

Re:Java and .NET falling by the wayside? (1)

Svartalf (2997) | more than 3 years ago | (#36986584)

It's not really analogous for the Java/Android story... If you wanted to reach for an analogy, it'd be Oracle suing Microsoft over .Net.

Re:Java and .NET falling by the wayside? (1)

tlhIngan (30335) | more than 3 years ago | (#36986782)

It's not really analogous for the Java/Android story... If you wanted to reach for an analogy, it'd be Oracle suing Microsoft over .Net.

Except Microsoft licensed Java VM patents for .Net. Oracle can't sue Microsoft for infringement because they've already got a licensing agreement in place.

So the situation's the same, just the Microsoft-Sun (now Oracle) deal would've been the path had Google licensed the patents as well. One licensed the stuff, the other didn't.

Re:Java and .NET falling by the wayside? (3, Insightful)

Richard_at_work (517087) | more than 3 years ago | (#36986510)

Its amazing how far a single article of FUD goes these days - Microsoft is not "going soft" on .Net, they just weren't willing to discuss it during a talk about something else entirely, while in Windows 8, .Net is still there and stronger than ever.

As I recall the Sun/Microsoft suit prohibited Microsoft from having their own Java implementation, is Microsoft now going to license Java from Oracle as the .NET replacement

Microsoft already have a licensing deal with Sun/Oracle in place for .Net - it was pursued years ago, at the very birth of .Net. And besides, what would Microsoft gain from going to Java? Functionality wise, .Net is better featured so what would Microsoft gain from switching ecosystems? Not a whole lot.

Microsoft don't want Java, they already made their version of it and are quite happy with it.

Re:Java and .NET falling by the wayside? (2)

Svartalf (2997) | more than 3 years ago | (#36986548)

Actually, they've done pretty good with one and only ONE item they got... VirtualBox. I'm kind of waiting for the other shoe to drop on that one as well, thought.

Re:Java and .NET falling by the wayside? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#36986598)

Oracle is running full page ads for sparc machines on back of economist. I think they are using sparc and solaris that way. And oracle itself was a big java shop (E-business suite)

Re:Java and .NET falling by the wayside? (1)

wasabii (693236) | more than 3 years ago | (#36986614)

I really wish I knew what you meant by "go soft on .Net". It's the premier development platform for the most widely distributed desktop and server OS on the planet. And their new phones use it.

Yeah. I don't know what you mean.

Sounds more like a witchhunt (2)

C_Kode (102755) | more than 3 years ago | (#36986192)

I'm not Oracle fan (actually, I'm a hater), but this seems more like a witch hunt. I mean, the title "Oracle's Java Polices Are Destroying the Community", sounds a little harsh considering you only said that Oracle released a buggy version of Java and they were not the first to report it. ...not that I'm against an Oracle witch hunt. ;)

Some of Oracle is working with Apache (1)

Sits (117492) | more than 3 years ago | (#36986284)

Re:Some of Oracle is working with Apache (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#36986682)

Nonono... they just don't want to mess with that project (OpenOffice) since they can not make money and it has already been forked (LibreOffice, because they didn't do sh*t about it). So if they can not make money, destroy it, but if it will lead to negative PR (Like destroying OpenOffice will lead to many companies to question/abandon Oracle's other products) pretend to donate it to the community for good PR. All in all, since the acquisition of Sun, I am avoiding Oracle's products like the plague (or as much as I can - no Java, no OpenOffice, and I am not using VM much - maybe once every 3 months)...

Former Sun Employees; Condolences (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#36986290)

It must be a terrible feeling to watch someone kill your baby.

Irony (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#36986318)

irony1 [ahy-ruh-nee, ahy-er-]
noun, plural -nies.

1. the use of words to convey a meaning that is the opposite of its literal meaning: the irony of her reply, “How nice!” when I said I had to work all weekend.

2. Literature .
a. a technique of indicating, as through character or plot development, an intention or attitude opposite to that which is actually or ostensibly stated.
b. (especially in contemporary writing) a manner of organizing a work so as to give full expression to contradictory or complementary impulses, attitudes, etc., especially as a means of indicating detachment from a subject, theme, or emotion.

3. an outcome of events contrary to what was, or might have been, expected.

Re:Irony (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#36986494)

Heh, you missed the irony.

Example 1: Jane says, "The toilet is overflowing!" Dick says, "Excellent. Wonderful. Great." Dick is using irony.

Example 2: Jane says, "The sun has set, as predicted." Dick says, "Oh, the irony." Dick is using irony.

In other words it is irony to claim irony when there is none.

Re:Irony (1)

lowlymarine (1172723) | more than 3 years ago | (#36986536)

3. an outcome of events contrary to what was, or might have been, expected.

How does that not fit in this case? Did you even read the next line in the summary?

non issue again. (1)

bobaferret (513897) | more than 3 years ago | (#36986348)

Most production work will remain at java 6 for a while, until everyone makes their versions of java 7 available, Apple and IBM in particular. RHEL doesn't ship with the openjdk-1.7.0 yet. It's just not available in enough places to be worth developing against yet. Oracle knows that Apache is one of the major reasons that java is a popular as it is. They did give the Apache foundation, all of OpenOffice you know. Some idiot made a bad call and told management, that the error was just a corner case, and management said were not going to miss our deadline for a corner case. Oracle knows that the enterprise market will buy Oracle and Oracle services. It's not worried about software that's not in its market space.

Java sucks (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#36986374)

Good riddance.

Where To? (1)

DocDyson (2429538) | more than 3 years ago | (#36986386)

I am a long-time Windows/.NET developer, but have reached a point where I want to become part of the much stronger, more vibrant open-source community that has developed around Linux, Java, Apache, MySQL, etc. Just as I started making this transition, Oracle's acquisition of two of the key pieces of this ecosystem (Java and MySQL) seems to be disrupting this (comparative) paradise. What's the consensus of the hive-mind on the future? Can the Linux vendors, the Apache Foundation, and their alies sustain the Java ecosystem without/in spite of Oracle? If not, where do we go from here? Dust off our old C++ skills? Adopt Google Go, Haskell, or some other next-generation language and re-build the ecosystem around it? Or are we collectively doomed to fragmentation again?

When you find out, let me know. (1)

Benanov (583592) | more than 3 years ago | (#36986448)

When you find out, let me know too. I think we're riding the same ship.

FIvRST (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#36986464)

World wiLl h4ve

Alternatives? (1)

softWare3ngineer (2007302) | more than 3 years ago | (#36986486)

I've been looking for an alternative to Java for some time. Java was appealing because of it cross-platform compatibility, and relatively easy to use GUI classes. Anyone have any suggestions?

Usual Oracle bashing (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#36986502)

It is very easy to bash Oracle for all that. Yes, they should probably delay the release. Yes, they should not make that bug in first place. Said that,
- would the bug not happen if Apache foundation got the TCK for Harmony ?
- would this jvm implementation bug not happen if Apache stayed in JCP and contribute to JDK _specification_ ?
- all the talk about 'trivial' bug - Hotspot is way more complicated code that anything Apache has produced. Harmony/core lib is a lot of work, code-wise, but complexity is a lot smaller. Hotspot is probably one of the most complicated open source projects out there. Most bugs are trivial after you find them out - but please, do not underestimate the complexity of state-of-art jvm implementation. And, to be honest, I don't think that Neil really understand the details of the bug, except that is has something to do with loop optimalization. This is way beyond normal 'forgotten to zero-delimit string' type of things.
- how releasing jvm with that bug is affecting the 'community' ? it does reduce the Oracle credibility in eyes of big commercial players (big companies will be now a lot more wary with adopting java 7), but community?
- regarding 'openess' of java. Yes, it is not perfect. But please compare it with .NET. All the people shouting how open C#/.NET was because of ECMA standarization. Now, we are around C# 4.0, how much of that is in control of ECMA or open bodies? Can I browse MS CLR implementation? Can I fork my own implementation of it for research purposes? Please take things into perspective. Oracle is not Richard Stallman, but it is still light years ahead of MS as far as VM platform openess is concerned.
I find it unfair that java/Oracle gets so much bashing for not being open, while .NET/C#/MS is ok. And java implementation from Oracle is about as open as it can be - even if control over specification is tighter than Apache crowd would like.

Major f*ckup, Oracle (2)

PPH (736903) | more than 3 years ago | (#36986512)

A couple of factors motivating users to seek open solutions are: The proprietary vendor screws a product up and then doesn't fix it[1]. The vendor starts withholding necessary documentation or other support from the software community[2]. When will my product become competition for the vendor and I too will get buggered?

I can't think of a faster way for developers to jump ship to an open version of Java. And perhaps begin to fear other Oracle products as well.

[1] Heck, enough screw-ups and I'll start looking for a competent alternative. Never mind timely patches.

[2] Its called 'cutting off their air supply' and was made famous by a little outfit in Redmond.

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