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Nokia Killing Symbian and S40 In North America

Unknown Lamer posted more than 3 years ago | from the build-your-own-coffin dept.

Cellphones 148

In an interview with AllthingsD, the head of Nokia's US operations declared that Nokia will be focusing exclusively on Windows Phone devices in North America. Reasons cited include the low profit margins of the ubiquitous low-end Series 40 devices and lackluster sales of Symbian based devices. This also means that the N9 won't be making it to North America either.

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Nokia is still in business? (2, Funny)

vlm (69642) | more than 3 years ago | (#37036922)

Nokia is still in business?

Re:Nokia is still in business? (5, Insightful)

mickwd (196449) | more than 3 years ago | (#37036962)

Apparently so. But their new CEO appears to be doing everything he can to change this.

Quite what the major shareholders think about it, I'd love to know.

Re:Nokia is still in business? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#37037534)

Apparently so. But their new CEO appears to be doing everything he can to change this.

Quite what the major shareholders think about it, I'd love to know.

Nokia changed their moto to copy Apple's but with a twist. Instead of "Think Different" it's "Don't Think".

Re:Nokia is still in business? (1)

Mister Liberty (769145) | more than 3 years ago | (#37037186)

NO KIA.

Re:Nokia is still in business? (2)

Luckyo (1726890) | more than 3 years ago | (#37037614)

No, the new brand of phones is called NoWin.

Re:Nokia is still in business? (1)

IDK (1033430) | more than 3 years ago | (#37037240)

It's hard going from the biggest company to nothing. They may not be biggest in the smartphone industry, but is still the biggest mobile phone industry, as I haven't heard otherwise. That may not last long though...

Re:Nokia is still in business? (3, Insightful)

UnknowingFool (672806) | more than 3 years ago | (#37037582)

The problem is that while they make the most number of mobile phones the larger numbers don't translate into higher profits. In the feature phone market, Nokia is competing against others for razor-thin to no profit. This was evident in their last quarterly.

Re:Nokia is still in business? (2)

Luckyo (1726890) | more than 3 years ago | (#37037654)

The last quarterly was a great example of your CEO deciding to scuttle the company, and how long it takes from him blowing up scuttling charges placed in all the right places to ship actually starting to sink.

Funnily, I've played with N9, and it feels superior on W7 HTC phones that nokia design guys had in may in about every way. The old pre-Elop strategy of symbian for low end and meego/harmattan for high end would have likely meant nokia would have been still very much #1 and head and shoulders above everyone else in mobile phone market. But that's all water under the bridge now.

Re:Nokia is still in business? (2)

Darinbob (1142669) | more than 3 years ago | (#37037804)

And the basic non-smart phones wont' have symbian or windows either way. So a non issue there. What make Nokia huge in the past was that their core business was also very well designed and everyone wanted one from the basic user to the high end yuppie moron. So Nokia has lost the highest end market but that's to be expected as they're fickle and will chase whatever new lust object comes along. The real problem is that they're losing out on their core business from cheaper dumb phone alternatives, having a great well built phone with a nice design doesn't influence people who only want the cheapest ones available. So they're losing the market at both ends.

Personally I don't care what idiocy Elop does with the high end phones since that will never be their bread and butter. But they need to recover the basic phone market somehow. They've spent too much time riding high on success that they've lost sight of where their business should be. Their re-org several years back into a matrix made them lose a lot of focus too, dumping telecom division off to partner with siemens, splitting up the phones division into competing subdivisions, etc.

Meanwhile I still have a basic dump Nokia phone. I would upgrade but I see no replacement. I go to AT&T and the only offerings are either really really low end cheap junk or top tier smart phones.

Re:Nokia is still in business? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#37037540)

Of course they are - despite their non-existent position in the smartphone market, they still sell so many simple feature phones that they... oops.

Re:Nokia is still in business? (1)

llZENll (545605) | more than 3 years ago | (#37037824)

Nokia may be poised for the turnaround of this decade, Apple was clearly the biggest turnaround in the last 20 years, from 90 days to bankruptcy to the largest market cap company in the world. I have no doubt your comment when Apple was in the news 15 years ago would be: Apple is still in business?

Which do you think is a better growth investment and more likely, Apple will further grow 1000x its size and revenues from its _current_ position, or for Nokia to make a comeback? Clearly the safer bet is on Nokia for extreme potential growth, granted they have obstacles to overcome, many unknowns, and have to define a new technology or segment like Apple did with the iPod, which seems rather unlikely but is possible.

Re:Nokia is still in business? (1)

gbjbaanb (229885) | more than 3 years ago | (#37038034)

or, the much more likely position, Apple continues to sell all kinds of stuff that people rush out to buy while Nokia slides into bankruptcy.

That's the problem with recovery plays, quite often they just don't. The safer bet is on 'boring' old Apple.

Re:Nokia is still in business? (1)

antifoidulus (807088) | more than 3 years ago | (#37038202)

The difference is Apple re-invented itself with new product lines and markets, Nokia is doing the exact opposite, it's killing pretty much everything it makes and just repackaging stuff made by another company. What Nokia is doing is much more akin to what SGI did in it's last days before bankruptcy(adopted a Wintel platform) than what Apple did. And guess what, it didn't work out for SGI, it won't work out for Nokia either.

Re:Nokia is still in business? (1)

tp_xyzzy (1575867) | more than 3 years ago | (#37039232)

" it's killing pretty much everything it makes and just repackaging stuff made by another company."

If it's so easy that just repackaging someone elses work, why wouldn't microsoft do it themselves? There would be no reason for microsoft to play this game, if your theory is correct.

Nokia being "right-sized"? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#37038434)

Except that it's highly possible that Nokia might be in the process of being "right-sized" for a sale (probably to microsoft).

I think it's a safe bet that Pepsi-cola was NOT thinking about "right-sizing" a company for takeover when they unleashed John Sculley on Apple...

On the other hand, Stephen Elop has a history of being a CEO (at Macromedia) just before it was purchased (by Adobe). Admittedly not the same situation, but one of Mr. Elop's first actions as CEO was to sign a deal with MSFT (his ex-employer) effectively orphaning SymbianOS... I don't know about you, but this whole thing seems mighty suspicious...

Open Source to clenched-fist model. (4, Insightful)

operator_error (1363139) | more than 3 years ago | (#37036950)

Dear Nokia, I love your engineers. But please ditch your marketing department, just soon as you fire your CEO Stephen Elop, the $hill from Micro$oft. I miss you lots.

Re:Open Source to clenched-fist model. (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#37037064)

the $hill from Micro$oft

Ah yes, I remember when I was 12 years old.

Re:Open Source to clenched-fist model. (2)

guises (2423402) | more than 3 years ago | (#37037232)

It's an old meme, but never more appropriate than here.

Re:Open Source to clenched-fist model. (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#37037402)

the $hill from Micro$oft

Ah yes, I remember when I was 12 years old.

Last week, right?

Re:Open Source to clenched-fist model. (1)

Kjella (173770) | more than 3 years ago | (#37037716)

Dear Nokia, I love your engineers. But please ditch your marketing department, just soon as you fire your CEO Stephen Elop, the $hill from Micro$oft. I miss you lots.

Please. In all honestly, Nokia was in deep trouble long before he took over in September 2010. Android and iPhone was and still is eating them for lunch while the precious engineers never managed to make anything out of Symbian/Qt/Maemo/MeeGo so they'd have a competitive smartphone. Elop took over a company that was already driving off the road, he might have panicked and sent them head-first into the ditch rather than back on the road, but it was far from flowers and sunshine before he took over.

Re:Open Source to clenched-fist model. (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#37038016)

The engineers weren't at fault, management was. Maemo was a beautiful phone, then they decided to scrap it and redesign with MeeGo after they bought Qt. This made *some* sense because they came up with the very clean development strategy with Qt compiling to both Symbian and MeeGo so they could slowly phase it out, but it came at the high price of having nothing to compete with Android/iOS.

Now MeeGo is ready and they're throwing it out for Windows Phone 7, the worst of all of the modern smartphone OSes which is starting from scratch since Microsoft dumped all over their Windows Mobile 6.5 developers. Even MeeGo would have had the advantage of being compatible with the newer Qt-based Symbian applications.

The engineers did what they were told. Not their fault management is brain damaged.

Re:Open Source to clenched-fist model. (1)

Kjella (173770) | more than 3 years ago | (#37038302)

Now MeeGo is ready

That's hardly what this article [businessweek.com] says.

At its current pace, Nokia was on track to introduce only three MeeGo-driven models before 2014â"far too slow to keep the company in the game. Elop tried to call OistÃmÃ, but his phone battery was dead. "He must have been trying an Android phone that day," says Elop. When they finally spoke late on Jan. 4, "It was truly an oh-s--t momentâ"and really, really painful to realize where we were," says OistÃmÃ. Months later, OistÃmà still struggles to hold back tears. "MeeGo had been the collective hope of the company," he says, "and we'd come to the conclusion that the emperor had no clothes. It's not a nice thing."

Personally I don't understand how they could screw that up so royally, but it seems they did.

Re:Open Source to clenched-fist model. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#37039306)

Is "Micro$oft" a retarded as fuck way to write Microsoft? Because I think you meant not to look like a total childish retard and type it the way I typed it. Might be wrong, though.

Decent kit is going away :( (5, Insightful)

semi-extrinsic (1997002) | more than 3 years ago | (#37036958)

It's a shame, really. My wife's 4 year old Nokia E65 is still doing its thing, with an OK web browser, wifi etc., and the battery life is roughly 5x what my LG Optimus gets. Nokia used to make some great kit if you weren't the type that had to have "Apps" that were just repackaging of websites or farting noises.

Re:Decent kit is going away :( (1)

gstoddart (321705) | more than 3 years ago | (#37037004)

Nokia used to make some great kit if you weren't the type that had to have "Apps" that were just repackaging of websites or farting noises.

But ... but ... (butt ... butt ... ;-)

What would I do without farting noises? That's the pinnacle of funny. The acme of funny even. How can you not have farting noises?

Re:Decent kit is going away :( (5, Funny)

maxwell demon (590494) | more than 3 years ago | (#37037210)

What would I do without farting noises? That's the pinnacle of funny. The acme of funny even. How can you not have farting noises?

Learn to make farting noises yourself. Be a producer, not a consumer!

Re:Decent kit is going away :( (1)

gstoddart (321705) | more than 3 years ago | (#37037312)

Learn to make farting noises yourself. Be a producer, not a consumer!

Dude, I've been a vegetarian for over a decade, and I eat a fair amount of beans and legumes ... I know how to make my own.

The idea is to make fart noises without the accompanying gaseous emissions -- it's generally safer for those around me. ;-)

Re:Decent kit is going away :( (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#37037770)

I've had a theory for a while that people who start sentences with "dude" are deviant in some way.
Thanks for confirming!

Re:Decent kit is going away :( (4, Informative)

syousef (465911) | more than 3 years ago | (#37037300)

It's a shame, really. My wife's 4 year old Nokia E65 is still doing its thing, with an OK web browser, wifi etc., and the battery life is roughly 5x what my LG Optimus gets. Nokia used to make some great kit if you weren't the type that had to have "Apps" that were just repackaging of websites or farting noises.

Nokia also use to let you install apps without having to buy certificates until Symbian Signed came along. The apps just weren't as sophisticated. A change in June means even getting a dev cert costs $$$, so they can go to hell now. There are some very useful applications for customising your phone out there - it's not just fart apps. For example Nokia doesn't do an auto answer to speakerphone app (which would essentially do away with the need for a hands free unit). But you can get an app for that. Before they killed off the freeware community there use to be a lot of good stuff for free for their candybar phones.

Re:Decent kit is going away :( (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#37037304)

It's a shame, really. My wife's 4 year old Nokia E65 is still doing its thing, with an OK web browser, wifi etc., and the battery life is roughly 5x what my LG Optimus gets. Nokia used to make some great kit if you weren't the type that had to have "Apps" that were just repackaging of websites or farting noises.

Why don't wait to say it is a shame until you actually see what they are cooking up with their big switch? Reviewers who have seen it seem quite impressed by Windows Phone 'Mango', and Nokia do make amazing hardware.

Re:Decent kit is going away :( (1)

Osgeld (1900440) | more than 3 years ago | (#37038404)

I have seen a many amazing chunks of hardware to be instantly crippled by windows implementation

we will see what happens this round

Re:Decent kit is going away :( (1)

shutdown -p now (807394) | more than 3 years ago | (#37039474)

Mango is not going to magically give you 3x battery life compared to iOS or Android. It's still a smartphone OS, that requires beefy hardware and sucks battery like there's no tomorrow. GP is right - S40 devices absolutely have their niche, which is quite different from smartphones. I carry a high-end Android smartphone daily, but I also do take my old Nokia with me when travelling - just in case I don't find place or time for that daily charge of my 'droid.

Re:Decent kit is going away :( (2)

CastrTroy (595695) | more than 3 years ago | (#37039386)

I just got a Nokia a couple months ago. For the price, it's a really good unit. I'm with a cell phone company that doesn't do subsidized phones (and in the process have much cheaper rates). So I could spend $400 on a nice Android phone, or $150 on a great Nokia Symbian phone. There's $150 Android phones, but I haven't heard anything but terrible reviews about them. I think this is the reason that they've given up on the American market for Symbian. Almost everyone is on a subsidized plan, and therefore don't see the full price of your phone. When a $400 phone only costs $50 (plus huge monthly bill). You can't sell "cheap" smart phones, because people aren't paying money for them anyway.

In related news... (1)

SpongeBob Hitler (1848328) | more than 3 years ago | (#37037140)

Stupidity and lame stories have killed slashdot all over the world.

Re:In related news... (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#37037174)

Agreed.

N9 is pretty good... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#37037144)

It is pity, that North America will miss all these great smart phones, which are even running linux (MeeGo), with all the benefits of it.
On a second thought, no, it is actually good. Go Go americans, enjoy your funny iShit, iFart, i am F....... phones.

Re:N9 is pretty good... (1)

JBMcB (73720) | more than 3 years ago | (#37039290)

I'm sure the N9 will be a great investment in an already dead platform.

WP7 is a flop. (1)

glrotate (300695) | more than 3 years ago | (#37037164)

Nokia going all-in with WP7 is about as dumb as HP buying Palm.

What makes the writer think no N9 for USA? (2, Informative)

Keruo (771880) | more than 3 years ago | (#37037166)

N9 is not symbian, its not S40 either. S40 is market segment of budget phones, which you can buy $20/device
Those devices are popular in africa and india etc developing markets.
The OS in N9 is Harmattan aka Maemo 6, you know one of the linux based Nokia phones. (No, not Meego)
It has nothing to do with symbian.

Only problem with N9 is, that it's 4 years too late.

The fact that Nokia said so. (2)

pavon (30274) | more than 3 years ago | (#37037258)

Nokia said straight out that the N9 isn't coming to the US. The writer wasn't inferring anything. RTFA.

Re:The fact that Nokia said so. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#37037420)

Nokia said straight out that the N9 isn't coming to the US. The writer wasn't inferring anything. RTFA.

when where was this said?

  (really, i'd like to know)

Re:What makes the writer think no N9 for USA? (1)

BJ_Covert_Action (1499847) | more than 3 years ago | (#37037334)

Who gives a shit? If you want one, buy it unlocked on Newegg or eBay. Problem solved.

Re:What makes the writer think no N9 for USA? (1)

Microlith (54737) | more than 3 years ago | (#37038772)

You assume it will be available via retail channels. Elop is gunning hard to make sure the N9 is difficult to get.

Re:What makes the writer think no N9 for USA? (2)

Luckyo (1726890) | more than 3 years ago | (#37037688)

If you ever had N9 in your hands, you'd know that no, it's not. Hardware needed to make N9 run like it does didn't exist four years ago and neither did software stack that advanced.

Seriously, find a friend with the said phone and try it before you moan about it being late.

Re:What makes the writer think no N9 for USA? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#37037918)

ummm, millions of folks who bought the original iPhone 4 years ago disagree with your comment.

Re:What makes the writer think no N9 for USA? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#37038470)

Is that the same iPhone that couldn't multitask, couldn't install apps, couldn't record video, couldn't (and still can't) do bluetooth file transfer,how many more can'ts do you want added?

Re:What makes the writer think no N9 for USA? (1)

Luckyo (1726890) | more than 3 years ago | (#37038900)

Apple fanboys disagree with a lot of things. Many of these disagreements make no sense whatsoever. This would be one of them.

Re:What makes the writer think no N9 for USA? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#37038698)

The N9 is not for sale for another 1.5 months; I believe some reviewers may have them. Perhaps you are talking about the N900? That doesn't disagree with your point though: the N9 will be far more powerful than the N900, which should hopefully make it a more useable device.

It will be missed... (3, Interesting)

rhavenn (97211) | more than 3 years ago | (#37037202)

I just bought a Nokia C3-00 unlocked and for what I want to do with a phone (phone calls and texting) it works perfectly, plus I get a good week+ of battery life. It isn't glitzy, the UI isn't the flashiest, but the hardware is solid, the keyboard feels good and it just works.

Far, far too many of the android and Apple products are going for glitz and glamour and eschewing the basics of what a phone should be. That is to say, a phone. In addition, they get crap battery life.

Re:It will be missed... (3, Interesting)

idontgno (624372) | more than 3 years ago | (#37037550)

Far, far too many of the android and Apple products are going for glitz and glamour and eschewing the basics of what a phone should be. That is to say, a phone. In addition, they get crap battery life.

Well, it kinda depends. For me, an android isn't a phone with crap battery life. It's an ultraportable computer with good battery life and telephony tossed in for free.

Telephony is almost useless to me, since all you can do with it is talk to people, and that's no fun. But computing on the go... oh yeah, that's where it's at.

But if you're in the place of "gotta have a phone, can't be cut off from the crowd", yeah, smartphones are neither smart nor phone.

BTW, in my case also, glitz is irrelevant. It's an HTC Desire, possibly the least glitzy android phone ever made with adequate capability. So, the glitz argument isn't universal either.

Re:It will be missed... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#37038346)

I have the same phone. Two of them, in fact. Great battery life, tons of functionality for what it is (if you can get the WiFi to work). I was assured by several people in the Nokia community that S40 wasn't going anywhere...only Symbian would be replaced with WP7.

My next phone will probably be a Samsung Bada-based phone, but that's still several years out. Nokia is dead. And I have probably purchased a dozen S40 phones in the past 5 years.

In other words (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#37037222)

'Microsoft to sell only Windows Phone devices under the acquired Nokia brand'. News at 11.

Re:In other words (1)

NoNonAlphaCharsHere (2201864) | more than 3 years ago | (#37037462)

We have a winner. Cynical, but almost true.

Might work (3, Interesting)

fyoder (857358) | more than 3 years ago | (#37037226)

They've failed from a marketing perspective in the North American market. Partnering with a large US corporation which seems to know a thing or two about marketing could work out for them. Though it would be more reassuring if they partnered with someone who didn't define 'partner' as 'someone you work with until you eat them'.

Re:Might work (1)

gbjbaanb (229885) | more than 3 years ago | (#37038154)

If you meant Microsoft as the 'large US corporation which seems to know a thing or two about marketing" I can only refer you to the doctors who have a nice white coat with long arms for you.

This is the company that did the Bill Gates/Seinfeld wiggle advert.

Windows 7 parties.

The 'get teens to text nude pics of themselves" Kin adverts.

The 'really?' advert for WinPh7 that said everyone else's phones were so great you'd pick them up out of a puddle of piss but you wouldn't bother using your windows phone.

"Cloud Power"

and the infamous "racist" [bbc.co.uk] advert in Poland.

and what about N900? (1, Interesting)

KiloByte (825081) | more than 3 years ago | (#37037228)

Does this mean they're dropping their smartbooks as well? N900 is worlds better than anything iOS/Android-laden: instead of a limited toy OS with a browser, media player and fart apps, it has a general purpose operating system in a smartphone-sized form -- effectively a very, very small laptop. Nokia failed to polish it so for ordinary users it doesn't have so much appeal, but for hardcore programmers and sysadmins it's godsent.

Re:and what about N900? (1)

SuperKendall (25149) | more than 3 years ago | (#37037310)

Nokia failed to polish it so for ordinary users it doesn't have so much appeal, but for hardcore programmers and sysadmins it's godsend.

Just get an iPad, a keyboard case, and buy one of the MANY VNC / SSH applications for the iPad.

Or an iPhone and a small foldable Bluetooth keyboard...

Re:and what about N900? (3, Interesting)

Keruo (771880) | more than 3 years ago | (#37037418)

> Just get an iPad, a keyboard case, and buy one of the MANY VNC / SSH applications for the iPad. You cannot put iPad in your pocket.
You don't need to pay extra for a proper keyboard on N900.
You have MANY VNC/RDP to choose from and ssh application for free on N900.
You can get N900 for $200 used.
Those two devices are worlds apart.

Re:and what about N900? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#37037850)

Don't like the iPad? Good. Like the N900? Great for you. Integrated keyboard is an iron clad requirent for you? Great. Enjoy a ZX80 while you're at it. Now honestly, could you shut up about it?

Re:and what about N900? (1)

Osgeld (1900440) | more than 3 years ago | (#37038428)

There's the scared little apple fan who just about had an aneurysm cause someone does not NEED the new SJ toy!

I was starting to worry

Re:and what about N900? (1)

Microlith (54737) | more than 3 years ago | (#37038858)

Or worse, has the temerity to consider a non-Apple solution!

Apple fans can go on and on about their stuff, but dare suggest something not from them, Google, or MS and you get chewed out.

Re:and what about N900? (1)

KiloByte (825081) | more than 3 years ago | (#37037512)

Uhm, VNC/SSH stops working the very second you get away from a reliable network connection. Which usually means going out of home.

Do you want a computer on the train, bus, plane? Or one when going in the boonies? Or in the middle of a freaking city but somehow with no network coverage at all (my uncle's house, 500m from the center of a population:50k town)? Or near a thick concrete wall?

Not to mention phone companies claiming that $150 for 3MB of data is a fair price -- this is what roaming costs these days.

Sorry, but comparing a full Pentium3-class machine (Pentium4 for N950) to a dumb thin client is a joke.

Re:and what about N900? (1)

gmhowell (26755) | more than 3 years ago | (#37038456)

Do you want a computer on the train, bus, plane? Or one when going in the boonies? Or in the middle of a freaking city but somehow with no network coverage at all (my uncle's house, 500m from the center of a population:50k town)? Or near a thick concrete wall?

I do not like them
in a train.
I do not like them
with a plane.
I do not like them
here or there.
I do not like them
anywhere.

Re:and what about N900? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#37037602)

Nokia failed to polish it so for ordinary users it doesn't have so much appeal, but for hardcore programmers and sysadmins it's godsend.

Just get an iPad, a keyboard case, and buy one of the MANY VNC / SSH applications for the iPad.

Yeah, I'll get right on stuffing my iPad in my pocket. Or the handlebar mount on my bike. Your other suggestion at least kinda made sense, why do you even mention the iPad?

Or an iPhone and a small foldable Bluetooth keyboard...

And being a hardcore sysadmin, I'll be glad that whenever the iStuff doesn't do something I want, let's say bluetooth mouse support, I can install gcc, make an event redirector to pipe mouse input from the device into XTEST (kdrive-based X server doesn't know about anything but the touchscreen), a couple scripts to handle the pairing and connecting side, plus load a visible cursor, and have the whole thing work, just like I did on the N800/810/900. Oh, you mean I can't do that? Well then fuck you, clueless person who makes idiotic recommendations with no clue what UNIX is even about.

What is possible is more than you think (1)

SuperKendall (25149) | more than 3 years ago | (#37037860)

Yeah, I'll get right on stuffing my iPad in my pocket.

I've never seen a sysadmin without a bag or briefcase.

Or the handlebar mount on my bike.

OK [seidioonline.com]

why do you even mention the iPad?

Admins like large screens.

And being a hardcore sysadmin, I'll be glad that whenever the iStuff doesn't do something I want, let's say bluetooth mouse support, I can...

Why would you do all that instead of simply installing BTStack Mouse app [iphonehacks.com] ?

Sysadmins supposedly being technical and all...

Well then fuck you, clueless person who makes idiotic recommendations with no clue what UNIX is even about.

I've programmed more UNIX (or near UNIX, like MPE) systems than you can even dream of, clueless idiot too stupid to use Google before planting foot firmly in mouth.

Perhaps from now on you'll listen to those who know more than you before proving your level of inexperience. Oh, but that's why you posted AC, I dub you Clueless Coward. Sure no-one else knows it's you who are an idiot, but now YOU know... and that private shame will stay with you for some time.

Re:What is possible is more than you think (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#37038312)

Yeah, I'll get right on stuffing my iPad in my pocket.

I've never seen a sysadmin without a bag or briefcase.

Or the handlebar mount on my bike.

OK [seidioonline.com]

why do you even mention the iPad?

Admins like large screens.

OK, but the person you were replying to mentioned N900, not any number of big-screen tablets, so maybe he doesn't like big screens enough to compromise portability? Anyway, I'm glad you mentioned the iPad, else I wouldn't have a good laugh over that iPad mount. Proof that just because something's a bad idea doesn't mean nobody will make it.

And being a hardcore sysadmin, I'll be glad that whenever the iStuff doesn't do something I want, let's say bluetooth mouse support, I can...

Why would you do all that instead of simply installing BTStack Mouse app [iphonehacks.com] ?

Sysadmins supposedly being technical and all...

Because there wasn't one of those at the time; I believe I was the fourth person to get a mouse working at all -- and I did it without paying Nokia $100 for a license to program my own hardware, without having to exploit bugs to assert my ownership, and without using a desktop to do the programming. These days, thanks in a small measure to my work, there's an implementation in the community repository, though I doubt any of my code remains (been through a couple rewrites under Qole's competent maintainership).

Well then fuck you, clueless person who makes idiotic recommendations with no clue what UNIX is even about.

I've programmed more UNIX (or near UNIX, like MPE) systems than you can even dream of, clueless idiot too stupid to use Google before planting foot firmly in mouth.

To use is not to understand. If you think an iPhone is equivalent to an N900, you do not understand.

You've programmed UNIX, and yet one cannot program an iCrap which proudly proclaims its direct lineage from Bell Labs by way of BSD; does that seem right to you?

When one system is derived from UNIX code, yet you can neither write shell script nor compile C code, is it UNIX?
When another system has no UNIX code, relying on some wierd Finnish kernel and GNU libc + utilities, with a dash of busybox, x.org's kdrive and various Gnome components, yet behaves in every way more like UNIX than the first, is it UNIX?

FYI, the answer to the first is "not even a little" and the second is "hell yes, even though it is a messy patchwork UNIX", trademark law be damned.

Perhaps from now on you'll listen to those who know more than you before proving your level of inexperience. Oh, but that's why you posted AC, I dub you Clueless Coward. Sure no-one else knows it's you who are an idiot, but now YOU know... and that private shame will stay with you for some time.

As it happens, I posted AC, as I always do, because I believe words should be able to stand on their own merit, and if they cannot, they should be refuted, rather than accepted as true, covered over as it were by the speaker's good reputation. You've made it plain you assign respect to people, not arguments -- I guess it saves you the trouble of questioning what you hear. I leave it to bystanders to judge for themselves who's wrong here, but I assure you, I feel no "private shame" from this exchange.

Re:and what about N900? (1)

Microlith (54737) | more than 3 years ago | (#37038756)

Yeah, don't buy the device that readily acknowledges you as the owner, buy the one that presumes you are a hostile to be contained.

Re:and what about N900? (1)

talmage (223926) | more than 3 years ago | (#37037618)

I love my N900. It took me a while to understand that the N900 was never intended to be a phone for most users. It was a platform for hackers and early adopters to play with and teach Nokia about FOSS. I was plenty disappointed when I figured this out about Nokia. If Nokia had made it a product for consumers, I'd have bought one for my elderly father.

Die Nokia! Die! (4, Informative)

syousef (465911) | more than 3 years ago | (#37037246)

Nokia have turned Symbian OS into a joke. Every application you install including any freeware must be signed or your phone must be hacked. You also need a developer certificate - specific to the phone's IMEI to hack your phone. Ever since this June when Nokia changed Symbian Signed so that getting a developer certificate software for free is no longer possible, Way to turn a smart phone into a dumb phone. I'm locked into a contract until November. After that I'll never buy anything Nokia or Microsoft again. I am not big on brand loyalty but I have been using Nokia phones exclusively since 1998, and now I can't wait to ditch them. Up until a couple of years ago I was able to get good battery life and install the odd app to customise my phone without too much drama. Sure PC suite was buggy and made teathering difficult when it crashed (requiring phone or PC or both to be rebooted) and instead of fixing it it seemed to get buggier with every generation but I could live with that. For the most part the phones were just the right balance of smart phone at a good price. Now they are overpriced pieces of junk - you'd almost be better off with one of those crappy throwaway GSM only phones for all the capability the latest gen of phone give you. Bye bye Nokia, don't let the door hit your arse on the way out and take Symbian Signed with you.

Re:Die Nokia! Die! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#37037880)

I knew about the Symbian Signed thing, and while it's a little hacker--unfriendly, with free certificates it was acceptable; I do understand the problems they were aiming to fight, and a little hassle could be worth it.

I didn't know they went all Apple and made you pay them for the "privilege" of running your own software on your own hardware. That fries my gizzard. I'm still buying an N9 (practically all the investment in that was before Elop took over anyway, though it still bothers me...), but I doubt I'll ever buy a Nokia product after that. The railroading of WinPhone over MeeGo rubs me wrong, but that's just business; this anti-ownership shit is pure evil.

Re:Die Nokia! Die! (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#37038022)

Nonsense. I write Java apps, and I don't need any signing to use all the hardware APIs, including awesome EAX-HD-like audio effects, OpenGL ES, phone and messaging services and just about every piece of hardware and functionality they have in there.

Other than Crapdroid or iFagOS, where you can't even write a fuckin' answering machine with the official SDK. Let alone GPS-position-dependent augmented acoustics. (Nope, all those "answering machines" turn out to be using external servers and call redirection if you look closely

Nokia killed it ? (2)

Chuby007 (1961870) | more than 3 years ago | (#37037288)

They wrote the article as if Nokia decided to kill the phones... it should be more like, AT LAST, Android and Iphone Completly crushed Nokia, or, Nokia resigned game over.. BTW this "news" have to be cloned, for blackberry in a few months... ( unless they start shipping their stuff with android ) anyhow Bye Bye S40 ! it was good while it lasted !

Alas poor Symbian! I knew him.... (1)

tverbeek (457094) | more than 3 years ago | (#37037292)

This is a sad day for me. I was an early adopter and huge fan of SIBO and EPOC, the predecessors to Symbian, when they were developed by Psion UK. Aside from the lack of a phone and wireless networking, the Series 3 family of devices were essentially the smartphones of the 1990s, a bit like like the Sharp Wizard or Casio Boss of their day... only much more useful. They were handheld computers that didn't even crash, which was something handheld OSes had a lot of trouble with in those days.

But Psion's inability to get a marketing beachhead in North America (thanks in part to the barrier tactics which 1990s Microsoft is so well known for), followed by a whole bunch of missteps in their partnering with Nokia and other companies in getting the OS into the phone market.... well, this is the result. It was really good software. I held onto my 1999-vintage Psion Series 3a, nursing it along with battery replacements and epoxy, until the iPod Touch came along, which was the first handheld computer I'd seen that I could switch it. It wasn't the same, but at least it wasn't a huge step backward in one way or another (yes, I'm looking at you, Palm and Microsoft).

Well, there's one brand I'll never be buying again (1, Interesting)

sremick (91371) | more than 3 years ago | (#37037416)

I've owned Nokia phones in the past, and have always considered them when it came time to buy a new one. But they just ensured that will never happen again. I can see maybe dabbling with Windows Phone and offering a few sets for variety... but when the news keeps showing that Windows Phone is DoA [eweek.com] , I don't get why Nokia would bet everything on a sinking ship. Are they truly that suicidal?

Re:Well, there's one brand I'll never be buying ag (2)

Keruo (771880) | more than 3 years ago | (#37037554)

The interesting thing about Nokia today seems to be their patent portfolio.
They own 70% of relevant mobile patents.
You need to license them if you want to manufacture/sell mobile phones.
Their stock is extremely undervalued and even with the 12-month high/average(which is higher) takeover-protection, Nokia might be target for corporate takeover soon.

Re:Well, there's one brand I'll never be buying ag (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#37037556)

I've owned Nokia phones in the past, and have always considered them when it came time to buy a new one. But they just ensured that will never happen again. I can see maybe dabbling with Windows Phone and offering a few sets for variety... but when the news keeps showing that Windows Phone is DoA [eweek.com] , I don't get why Nokia would bet everything on a sinking ship. Are they truly that suicidal?

And before making that choice you are not at all interested in seeing what they might come up with? Windows Phone isn't selling today precisely because of lack of serious handset maker support. But the next update that Nokia will use have got nothing but praise from people and reviewers who have actually seen it. And Nokia still knows a thing or two about selling mobile phones.

Re:Well, there's one brand I'll never be buying ag (2, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#37037702)

And Nokia still knows a thing or two about selling mobile phones.

Bullshit. Their phones are not selling, even here in Finland. Consumers no longer want anything to do with their products.

Re:Well, there's one brand I'll never be buying ag (3, Informative)

recoiledsnake (879048) | more than 3 years ago | (#37037666)

I've owned Nokia phones in the past, and have always considered them when it came time to buy a new one. But they just ensured that will never happen again. I can see maybe dabbling with Windows Phone and offering a few sets for variety... but when the news keeps showing that Windows Phone is DoA [eweek.com] , I don't get why Nokia would bet everything on a sinking ship. Are they truly that suicidal?

The article you quoted is rubbish. Here's a comment from there:

One should invest in a little research before writing.

1) The 38% drop stems almost entirely from users moving from Windows Mobile to another platform. Windows Mobile is to Windows Phone 7 what the Newton is to the iPhone. Yes, Microsoft is losing to Android but so is Apple. And it is misleading to imply, as you did, that customers are leaving Windows Phone 7. This just isn't the case.

2) Mango was released to manufactures last month. This was reported by this same outlet that allowed you to publish such drivel. On second thought, you were right to ignore it. I wouldn't trust eWeek as a source either.

As to why Nokia switched: http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/11_24/b4232056703101.htm [businessweek.com]

Key takeaway is that hiring open source evangelists to design a mobile OS(i.e Meego) failed and they wouldn't have had enough devices running it. After the board realized that, they jettisoned the CEO and brought in Elop to get alternatives. Blackberry, HP and Google told him to take a hike so the only credible option left was WP7. Interesting angles that you don't see when you read Slashdot comments.

Re:Well, there's one brand I'll never be buying ag (1)

0123456 (636235) | more than 3 years ago | (#37037894)

And it is misleading to imply, as you did, that customers are leaving Windows Phone 7. This just isn't the case.

Surely before customers can leave Windows Phone 7 they need to actually have some customers?

Re:Well, there's one brand I'll never be buying ag (1)

ponchietto (718083) | more than 3 years ago | (#37038200)

>After the board realized that, they jettisoned the CEO and brought in Elop to get alternatives. I think you got it reversed, when Elop arrived the path was already chosen.

Re:Well, there's one brand I'll never be buying ag (2)

ras (84108) | more than 3 years ago | (#37038224)

Key takeaway is that hiring open source evangelists to design a mobile OS(i.e Meego) failed and they wouldn't have had enough devices running it.

That is clearly bullshit. They didn't fail, as they have now delivered the N9.

They were late. They weren't late because of open source, they were late because the changed higher ups changed direction one too many times with the dropping of Maemo for MeeGo. But nonetheless they delivered. And they delivered long before Microsoft. They had a working Maemo based phone ready for the market place before Mango was Released To Manufacturing. If they wanted to ship a fleet of new phones ASAP, they should have done it using their home grown Maemo platform.

People from Microsoft understand the meaning of the term late better than most because they are familiar with Vista. It is a setback, not a disaster. What changed it from a setback to a disaster wasn't open source or engineering decisions, it was the board loosing their faith in the own company's engineering culture - something that Microsoft would never do. They hired a CEO that reflected that opinion and promptly declared declared all their products to be shit. Guess what? Their customers believed them.

It will be a great a lesson for business schools: it is indeed possible to destroy one of the worlds largest tech companies in 24 months or so. All it takes is a board consisting entirely of spineless, risk adverse morons who are willing to abandoning everything their company is built on and flee to the first exit offered as soon as the going gets tough.

Re:Well, there's one brand I'll never be buying ag (1)

Microlith (54737) | more than 3 years ago | (#37038848)

the changed higher ups changed direction one too many times with the dropping of Maemo for MeeGo.

The introduction of MeeGo had no impact. If it did, the N9 would be running MeeGo, instead it runs a descendant of Maemo with Qt APIs which were planned since 2009. It likely would have been delayed further had they switched to MeeGo proper, but the bureaucracy internal to the company is to blame for the N9 and N950's extreme lateness.

Re:Well, there's one brand I'll never be buying ag (1)

ras (84108) | more than 3 years ago | (#37038928)

If it did, the N9 would be running MeeGo

The N9 was "running" MeeGo when it was due to be released in September 2010. Running is in quotes because it started swapping before it got to run a line of Qt code.

The introduction of MeeGo had no impact.

The MeeGo base it was standing on had to be thrown away. These one step forward two steps back manoeuvres take time to execute.

Re:Well, there's one brand I'll never be buying ag (1)

Microlith (54737) | more than 3 years ago | (#37039102)

The N9 was "running" MeeGo when it was due to be released in September 2010.

No, it wasn't. Then as now it was running Harmattan, which had been in planning since 2009. MeeGo was barely out of the gate in early 2010 and ticking with Xorg by September 2010. But I don't get your point regarding swap, and I doubt you can make it either.

The MeeGo base it was standing on had to be thrown away. These one step forward two steps back manoeuvres take time to execute.

I see you stating conjecture as fact. Do you have any evidence for the wild claims you are making?

Re:Well, there's one brand I'll never be buying ag (1)

Microlith (54737) | more than 3 years ago | (#37038840)

Key takeaway is that hiring open source evangelists to design a mobile OS(i.e Meego) failed

I don't think that's the key takeaway. The key takeaway is that Nokia had a winner on their hands but their own internal battles kept it from ever getting the focus it needed until now. Harmattan is the end result that finally had them taking what was growing since 2005 and turned it into a smartphone OS. It should have been done years ago, but it was never allowed to happen.

Your point comes across as someone looking for something to point at and blame on FOSS.

After the board realized that, they jettisoned the CEO and brought in Elop to get alternatives.

Actually, it sounded like they wanted different management who could cut through the stupid bureaucracy, not a wholesale abandonment of everything that made them what they were. But it looks like that bureaucracy was retained and the software outsourced.

Blackberry, HP and Google told him to take a hike so the only credible option left was WP7.

Wait, do you have inside information no one else does? Links?

Nothing on what was wrong with MeGOO (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#37039070)

I skimmed the article looking for something concrete about MeeGo being a non-starter. The only thing I found was "too slow". That's not enough to convince me. There are proprietary software nutcases that are the equal and opposite of the ever faithful Richard Stallman.

Some basic facts or the situation:

+ Nokia did not have to develop either Qt or Linux from scratch. On the other hand, a lot of serious development resources went into Android, iOS and the Cocoa framework.

+ Nokia had already released a very nice MeeGo based smart phone: the N900.

I doubt there were serious technical issues with a MeeGo based mobile platform, and too "slow" could be code for "not my cup of tea".

Re:Well, there's one brand I'll never be buying ag (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#37038416)

There's been a few of these kinds of stories of Nokia actively sinking N9/Meego in public.

Why come out and say the N9 will be the last? Even if Nokia thought/knew so, why say it to the media just as they release it?

Elop has said other similarly odd things, as if trying to get people to not buy the N9.

It doesn't make sense to me, unless they feel they should be saying these things to appease Microsoft, for some reason.

  We still can't know, if Elop is a mole for real. Maybe he's just lying to Microsoft and they plan to milk the MS deal until Meego is doable?

Anyway, for the time being, getting the N9 (even if I had the money) would be out of the question for me, a supporter of world domination by Free software, since they may well be (and not terribly unlikely, either) siphoning whatever scraps the sales will generate into the pockets of the old Beelzebub.

Headline: Nokia Elops with Microsoft (1)

Daniel Phillips (238627) | more than 3 years ago | (#37037526)

Nokia spurns sanity, Elops with Microsoft. First thing that has to go: all low end phones where Nokia currently dominates. Search continues for shortest path to cliff edge.

Re:Headline: Nokia Elops with Microsoft (1)

jonwil (467024) | more than 3 years ago | (#37039168)

In America Nokia does not dominate.
I cant find a single Nokia phone (dumb or smart) listed on the web page for Tracfone, Verizon, T-Mobile or Sprint.
The AT&T page lists ONE, the Nokia 6350. Thats ONE nokia phone across all 4 major carriers plus the largest seller of prepaid dumbphones.

Nowhere does it say Nokia is killing off the dumbphones in those markets where Nokia dumbphones actually make money...

There's only one question left here (2)

pablodiazgutierrez (756813) | more than 3 years ago | (#37037650)

How much lower will NOK shares sink before MS finally buys out the pieces left? They're now trading at 11 PE ratio, or $5.20 a share. They're valued at about $20B, and they have some $7B net cash. Any financial expert in the room who can advise us when to start buying?

Goodbye, Nokia (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#37037822)

It's right there in "the low profit margins of the /ubiquitous/ low-end Series 40".

The 'high' profit margin from S40 is the daily association people make between Nokia and good little phones. Makes people consider Nokia's upper-end when shopping in a way no other PR campaign can match.

Goodbye, Nokia. Dropping that foundation is like MS dropping bundled OEM Windows.

Asymptotically circling the drain... (4, Insightful)

xeno (2667) | more than 3 years ago | (#37038046)

Talk about the walking dead... wow.
Nokia dumping Symbian in an age when lo-end CN knockoffs come with Android 2.x, and HP is putting WebOS on printers... actually makes a little sense.
Nokia dumping Harmattan/Maemo6, an in-house controlled solid full-scale OS with a UI that's 4 years too late.. seems lazy or poor judgement.
Nokia jumping on WinPhone7, with zero control of a third-party franchised OS that has a great UI but functionality 4 years behind the curve... seems genuinely self-destructive.

Bye, Nokia. Nice knowing you.

Never figured it out (1)

jsm18 (1317959) | more than 3 years ago | (#37038050)

I had a Nokia 5230 for while. It was a great low end smartphone: high res screen, battery that lasted forever, GPS with all the map data local. The only two flaws were no wifi, and a underwhelming app store. I never really understood what OS I was using. S40? S60? Symbian^3? Nokia really does a lousy job of marketing their brand.

Re:Never figured it out (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#37038296)

S60.

I miss my 3310. The last "just a phone" I had. Now I have an overhyped Android smart phone. Bleh.

what is this I don't even... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#37038112)

how do they expect to increase sales in american markets...if they don't allow their product to be sold in american markets?

Stick the fork into Nokia (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#37038344)

Stick the fork into Nokia, and then pull it out again. Goes in easily, nothing sticking to the fork on removal. Its done. Summary: stick a fork in Nokia, its done! Windblows Fone 7, isn't that the system thats the *least popular* because it kinda sucks bigtime? And since there is no "office" to tie it to anything, then it has to win on its own merits. And Nokia is *moving toward* this technology? Are the shareholders *hoping* to have a major loss? I know if a major corporation has one division of something that is experiencing *major profits* and they wish to minimize their tax burden, then they will buy a dog of a company, and run it so that it burns up some of the excess profit, and they can custom tune their profits against their losses to minimize their tax burden (maximizing profits). I think Nokia is that dog.

Rooting for Nokia and Microsoft (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#37038436)

posting as a coward because I value my Karma.

But lets be serious here. Windows Phone 7 is a great phone with obvious potential as long as they keep the updates coming but it doesn't have the early-adopter appeal that Apple does or the massive hardware support that Android does.

Its a tough road ahead for Nokia, but I think they can pull it off. Ironically the thing that is keeping me attached to my iPhone is a free app from Microsoft that isn't on WP7. I hope they fix that soon. I can't wait to ditch this thing.

the end! (1)

ruthless reader (1892470) | more than 3 years ago | (#37038572)

RIP Nokia!

Wanted the N8...oh well. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#37038826)

This is too bad...I was interested in the N8 except that:

1) It is GSM-only, so I really only have 2 choices for carrier (unless I go with Revol or some other small-time carrier). Would it be possible to make it CDMA/GSM so that I could switch from Verizon to AT&T or vice-versa without paying $400 for a new phone? (Maybe that would bring the cost up beyond what most people could swallow.)

2) Everything that I read said that Symbian felt clunky. Also, there is no cyanogenmod-like replacement firmware.

3) I couldn't get a Rockbox app for it so it could replace my 5th gen iPod video.

Oh well.

Lose the developers and you lose the market (3, Insightful)

ripdajacker (1167101) | more than 3 years ago | (#37039436)

Nokia has made some fundamental errors in their business strategy the last couple of years. Around 01/02 (correct me if I'm wrong) they were the largest manufacturer of mobile phones, they had the largest market share on the mobile phone market, AND they had the largest global market share on the GSM technology market. The GSM department is still thriving, but their focus on the mobile devices market is somewhat shaky.

They had a good run with Symbian, but they got "too comfortable" in the leading position. The iPhone came in 2007 along with Android in 2008 and the market showed that the following years. Their crisis they face now is economically comparable to the one the whole industry was facing in 1995/6 when there was a shortage of semiconductors.

The failing of their strategy is seen in a few places:
1) The high entry barrier for developing for Symbian: license fees, tools, lack of freely available frameworks
2) The rather rough UI compared to iPhone/Android: the menus are not intuitive, the applications are inconsistent in UI, the whole thing runs rather slow
3) Failure to adopt higher-end technology: They had only resistive screens until 2010 afaik even though their phones cost the same as competitors with capacitive.
4) Failure to address the lacking application support: They should have reacted WAAY faster and more aggressive. They should have brought more innovation to the platform, made the tools freely available including the certificates (or for a nominal fee), implemented an appstore AND made the developing environment attractive.

They lost the developers, therefore they lost the applications. With the applications the content soon followed, and without the ability to consume content your smartphone is not a smartphone; it's a paper-weight that happens to have the ability to call people.

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