Beta
×

Welcome to the Slashdot Beta site -- learn more here. Use the link in the footer or click here to return to the Classic version of Slashdot.

Thank you!

Before you choose to head back to the Classic look of the site, we'd appreciate it if you share your thoughts on the Beta; your feedback is what drives our ongoing development.

Beta is different and we value you taking the time to try it out. Please take a look at the changes we've made in Beta and  learn more about it. Thanks for reading, and for making the site better!

Right-Wing German Extremists Tricked By Trojan Shirts

samzenpus posted more than 3 years ago | from the rinse-relax-repeat dept.

Idle 457

gzipped_tar writes "Fans at a recent right-wing extremist rock festival in Germany thought they were getting free T-shirts that reflected their nationalistic worldview. But after the garment's first wash they discovered otherwise. The original image rinsed away to reveal a hidden message from an activist group. It reads: 'If your T-shirt can do it, so can you. We'll help to free you from right-wing extremism.'"

cancel ×

457 comments

Sorry! There are no comments related to the filter you selected.

how big is the movement? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#37052566)

how many neo nazis are there in Germany, about?

Re:how big is the movement? (3, Interesting)

Opportunist (166417) | more than 3 years ago | (#37052592)

As long as there's one, there's at least one too many.

I guess it depends on what you'd count towards "Neo Nazis". Just those that actually believe the bull, or generally everyone who enjoys freezing their brains and beating up people who look different?

Re:how big is the movement? (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#37053044)

Nah, you gotta keep at least one around to look at, as a sort of specimen. If at least so you can occasionally observe it and think, "Oh wow, people really can get that batshit crazy."

Re:how big is the movement? (1)

Penguinisto (415985) | more than 3 years ago | (#37052608)

I'm guessing that, since NSDAP symbology and speech is illegal in Germany, it would be slightly hard to tell. They couch it into as many subtleties as they can for the most part. Aside from the occasional concert or march, you'd likely have an easier time finding neo-nazis in Idaho than you would in Germany.

Re:how big is the movement? (3, Funny)

mosb1000 (710161) | more than 3 years ago | (#37052744)

you'd likely have an easier time finding neo-nazis in Idaho than you would in Germany

Woah, you set the bar pretty high there.

Re:how big is the movement? (1)

Eraesr (1629799) | more than 3 years ago | (#37053006)

If I understand correctly, nazi symbols (like the swastika) aren't illegal per se in Germany, as long as they're used in the proper context. Used in entertainment or as a way to promote the nazi ideology is forbidden, but in a historical documentary about what happened in WW2, I don't believe the symbol necessarily need to be blurred out or removed from footage from that era for example.
I'm not German though so I'm not entirely sure about the rulings surrounding such symbols.

Re:how big is the movement? (1)

Kokuyo (549451) | more than 3 years ago | (#37053132)

It does boil down to this, yes.

As an example, take the Lucas Arts Indiana Jones adventures. In those, the Svastika was colored black, resulting in a misshapen square.

On the other hand, Nazi uniforms in movies are not really censored so go figure. I guess back then Lucas Arts was just very careful and decided to err on the side of caution.

On the other hand, Wolfenstein was on the index I believe, but you decide whether it's because of the brutality or the Svastika ;)

Re:how big is the movement? (2)

Canazza (1428553) | more than 3 years ago | (#37053228)

I think you mean Illinois, not Idaho.

Re:how big is the movement? (3, Interesting)

rbrausse (1319883) | more than 3 years ago | (#37053144)

according to a pre-release of the 2010 statement [verfassungsschutz.de] of the Verfassungsschutz [wikimedia.org] (German domestic intelligence service) we have a headcount of 5600 neo nazis.

Take this with a grain of salt, like most government agencies the Verfassungsschutz has a political agenda - every publication is announced by the far-(left||right) wing* with "the data is biased"

*) and everyone else...

Make all the t-shirts you want (2, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#37052574)

This [youtube.com] isn't going to work.

Re:Make all the t-shirts you want (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#37052642)

Just a reminder to moderators that the downvoting options are not in place for the purpose of silencing opinions just because you disagree with them.

Re:Make all the t-shirts you want (1)

AvitarX (172628) | more than 3 years ago | (#37052724)

The only violence in that video was done by swedes, I find that interesting.

Re:Make all the t-shirts you want (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#37052864)

Swedes are the only one's losing anything. Too obvious to be at all interesting.

Re:Make all the t-shirts you want (1)

Hognoxious (631665) | more than 3 years ago | (#37053218)

It wasn't Swedes rioting and attacking ambulance and fire crews. You're either stupid or a liar.

Genius. (3, Funny)

mirix (1649853) | more than 3 years ago | (#37052582)

Too bad they didn't have cameras to record the nazi-rage reaction face.

Actually, since they're probably children, it would end up being their mom's reaction face when she is doing the laundry. Ah well.

Re:Genius. (3, Interesting)

Q-Hack! (37846) | more than 3 years ago | (#37052694)

Too bad they didn't have cameras to record the nazi-rage reaction face.

Actually, since they're probably children, it would end up being their mom's reaction face when she is doing the laundry. Ah well.

While this is probably the most probable scenario, It does give the parents an eye on what their kids are doing and will thus cause them to consider intervening in their development. If it causes at least one parent to positively change a kids direction in life, then it was well worth the money spent.

Re:Genius. (0, Troll)

cheekyjohnson (1873388) | more than 3 years ago | (#37052748)

If it causes at least one parent to positively change a kids direction in life, then it was well worth the money spent.

What does "positively" mean? Changing the direction of their life in a way that you or their parents like?

Re:Genius. (4, Insightful)

phantomfive (622387) | more than 3 years ago | (#37052766)

Becoming a neo-nazi is considered a negative thing by everyone, except neo-nazis and morally impaired monkeys. Really, there are some things in life that are unambiguously, morally good.

Re:Genius. (1)

mjwx (966435) | more than 3 years ago | (#37052858)

Becoming a neo-nazi is considered a negative thing by everyone, except neo-nazis and morally impaired monkeys. Really, there are some things in life that are unambiguously, morally good.

Surely you mean "unambiguously, morally bad" as I think it's pretty clear that Neo-Nazism is not a good thing(TM).

Re:Genius. (1)

phantomfive (622387) | more than 3 years ago | (#37052878)

oh, come on, don't be a hater! My sentence was clear!

Re:Genius. (2)

Barsteward (969998) | more than 3 years ago | (#37052966)

"morally impaired monkeys. "

don't slander the monkeys as they have more intelligence than a neo-nazi and look a lot cuter

Re:Genius. (2, Insightful)

cheekyjohnson (1873388) | more than 3 years ago | (#37052998)

Becoming a neo-nazi is considered a negative thing by everyone

That doesn't mean that it is negative.

Really, there are some things in life that are unambiguously, morally good.

To know that, you'd probably have to be able to prove the existence of absolute morals.

Re:Genius. (1)

artor3 (1344997) | more than 3 years ago | (#37053040)

I'll tell you what. I'll waste time arguing with Nazis and proving them wrong just as soon as you prove that the moon is not made of cheese.

Re:Genius. (1)

phantomfive (622387) | more than 3 years ago | (#37053050)

See, once upon a time, there was a guy named Zenos who proved that an arrow would never hit its target. And yet he would have been an idiot to stand in front of a flying arrow, because back in the real world, arrows hit their targets.

You can philosophize, write your nihilistic volumes showing whatever you want about morals, and yet back in the real world, neo-nazism will still be bad. Trying to argue otherwise makes you look silly. Or gets you modded down.

Re:Genius. (2)

sg_oneill (159032) | more than 3 years ago | (#37053056)

You cant prove the existance of moral laws (they dont exist), but you can derive them via solid logic if you accept a couple of limited precepts. Kant for instance more or less derived an entire moral code from logically mapping the implications of the idea that the law of non-contradiction should apply to morals by arguing that it meant roughly "If you think its good for others then its good for yourself since a good thing cant be an evil thing and an evil thing cant be a good thing". And thats just one code. Benthem derived a compltely different set of moral laws by starting from "your actions ought maximise utility and not decrease it" more or less.

This is where people get confused. There are actually many moral codes, and many can be "proved". But sometimes those moral codes contradict each other and you have to evaluate them on their merits or argumentation to see who's moral claim seems most able to withstand scrutiny. Very few except those of the religionists are just plucked out of the air.

Re:Genius. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#37052782)

It means positively, in the direction of not being total tools. While there is a gray area, generally ethical behavior is not in the eye of the beholder.

Re:Genius. (2)

Belial6 (794905) | more than 3 years ago | (#37052838)

That isn't even close to true. Whether you are talking about slavery in the past, the destruction of entire cultures, refusing groups the right to vote, or letting murders walk free just because they have vaginas, ethical behavior is heavily in the eye of the beholder. In fact, hating people for being different has only been considered bad very recently in history. Just a couple of generations ago, it was just a given, and it was a given to virtually every culture on the planet.

Give in to your hate. (-1, Troll)

r00t (33219) | more than 3 years ago | (#37052920)

In fact, hating people for being different has only been considered bad very recently in history. Just a couple of generations ago, it was just a given, and it was a given to virtually every culture on the planet.

It's still a given in any culture with a hope of long-term survival. Without this, a culture lacks the cohesion required to prevent being overrun by others. (other things are required too of course, like a decent birth rate and the ability to defend land)

You OK with outsiders moving in and bringing their own culture? Fine, kiss your own culture bye-bye. Soon enough **you** get to be the minority and maybe the newcomers don't have such welcoming views of your ways. With a bit of bad luck, you find yourself living in a Taliban-like world or worse.

Re:Give in to your hate. (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#37053102)

They'll win in the end anyway. You lost this war the moment you lost the war on miscegeny. You can't win. It's better if you just kill yourself. Come on, Nazi scum. Do it. It's the one way you can finally escape the horrors of multiculturalism. Go out like a man and eat one of the dozens of barrels that adorn the walls of your squalid little shack.

Re:Give in to your hate. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#37053130)

There is a distinction between "hating people for being different" and claiming superiority for your culture (and enacting immigration policies reflecting that).

It's true that this distinction is lost on many people, whether through stupidity, or willful blindness -- because when your birthrates are going down, the only way to keep the productive population at levels to support the Ponzi-scheme that is a modern state is through wide-scale immigration, and it's much harder to get that scale of immigration from compatible cultures (who mostly share the same problems of birthrate decline and burgeoning deadweight) or with effective assimilation of immigrants from incompatible cultures than to simply ignore the culture problem and hope it blows up after you're gone.

Re:Genius. (1)

Your.Master (1088569) | more than 3 years ago | (#37052792)

Yes, that's what positively means. Although also ideally it would change the direction of their life in the way they like -- changing your mind doesn't mean permanent unhappiness.

I don't mean to be glib, but is there some problem with viewing changing kids' lives from neo-nazism as a good thing? It's not like this is a government fiat where they hold a gun to your head and tell you to believe; it's a charity advertising campaign.

I'm unclear what your position is. My guesses:

- A philosophical stance of non-interventionism under any circumstances? That seems to contradict you posting any argument.
- Neo-nazism sympathy?
- An irrelevant philosophical point that boils down to how morality cannot be derived from provable facts?
- Trolling?

Re:Genius. (1)

cheekyjohnson (1873388) | more than 3 years ago | (#37053024)

but is there some problem with viewing changing kids' lives from neo-nazism as a good thing?

That would depend on who you ask. If you're asking me, then I'd say no.

- An irrelevant philosophical point that boils down to how morality cannot be derived from provable facts?

Well, there's no evidence of absolute morals (that I know of). It appeared as though he stated something subjective (or, at least, I believe it to be subjective) as a fact, so I replied to it.

Re:Genius. (4, Insightful)

martin-boundary (547041) | more than 3 years ago | (#37052806)

Let me get this straight: you're arguing that when a mom washes her kid's T-shirts that happen to have extremist slogans on them, she's totally oblivious. But if she washes one T-shirt that has the message "We'll help to free you from right-wing extremism.", then suddenly she's going to wonder what her kid is up to these days?

Have you thought any of this through?

Re:Genius. (2)

Pieroxy (222434) | more than 3 years ago | (#37052860)

Have you thought any of this through?

First posts rarely think their post through.

Re:Genius. (1)

Joce640k (829181) | more than 3 years ago | (#37052952)

Why would a hardcore extremist be living with mommy?

Are hardcore extremists actually washing their t-shirts...?

Re:Genius. (1)

artor3 (1344997) | more than 3 years ago | (#37052752)

While some neo-Nazis are self-radicalized, most are raised that way. That's the point of these shirts. To try to sneak a message through to the kids and get them to reconsider whether they really want to follow in their parents' footsteps. With the adults, it's likely too late -- they're too set in their ways. Kids can still change.

Re:Genius. (5, Insightful)

antifoidulus (807088) | more than 3 years ago | (#37052840)

Its really hard to pinpoint an exact cause, but it should be noted that neo-nazism is much more prevalent in the former East Germany, with its much higher unemployment, than west, which is considerably richer. Furthermore its quite popular among young men without university educations, who get royally fucked over in Germany(not as bad as in the states, but still). All the strikes work out great for the older people who have jobs, but they make it much more unlikely the companies are going to hire any more people, which sucks hard for the young Germans.....

I also guess it really depends on what you define neo-nazism as, to some Germans doing anything that vaguely takes pride in some sort of German cultural identity is neo-nazisism, and to an extent I think the whole movement is just a response to that.....

But ultimately the extremists in Germany are largely comprised of the same types of people, those who cannot get meaningful jobs/work, as it is anywhere else in the rich world. You arent likely to see a lot of engineers in the hard core Japanese right wing socities, but you do see people who 30 years ago probably would have ended up in a factor with a decent middle class lifestyle. Likewise you arent going to see a lot of scientists in the religious right, but what you will see are people whose best hope in life is to get a job working at Wal-Mart for low pay and no benefits, people who again 30 years ago probably would have had a comfortable middle class lifestyle with a job that actually had at least some, maybe not a lot, but some significance. People need meaning in their lives, if they cannot find it at work, they are going to find some other cause to get behind, and the results are rarely pretty.

Re:Genius. (1)

Alex Belits (437) | more than 3 years ago | (#37053016)

30 years ago probably would have ended up in a factor with a decent middle class lifestyle.

Why? If they are poor now, there is no reason to expect that they would fare any better in 80's (or at any other point in history). You are trying to make parallels with post-WWI Germany where EVERYONE was worse off than before the war, but this just isn't the case. Poor and ignorant people are likely to blame other races and ethnicities for their misfortune regardless of any facts.

Re:Genius. (3, Informative)

antifoidulus (807088) | more than 3 years ago | (#37053090)

You might want to revisit your history before commenting. I wasnt trying to draw parallels to right after the war, I was trying to draw parallels to peak factory employment. Hell through the 50s and 60s Germany had so few young male workers that they had to import them "temporarily" from abroad. Thats part of how the whole immigration mess got started, at least there. From pretty much the early 50s to about 30 years ago factory jobs were plentiful, pretty much any (male) that wanted one could get one and could enter the middle class. Not to mention they were a hell of a lot more meaningful then walking around in a smock all day listening to people bitch you out.

Now unless you have an education, and sometimes even then, the # of jobs that are open to you that will provide a middle class lifestyle are almost non-existant if you dont already have one. Germanys GINI coefficient is rising, especially among the young.

Re:Genius. (1)

cheekyjohnson (1873388) | more than 3 years ago | (#37052756)

Actually, since they're probably children

How do you know this?

Re:Genius. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#37052904)

*ahem* From TFA:

The group's main goal was to reach young right-wing extremists "in a situation where they would hopefully be alone at home."

Re:Genius. (0)

the_Bionic_lemming (446569) | more than 3 years ago | (#37052828)

I doubt there was any reaction face.

If I showed up to a pro-obama fanfest and got a t-shirt for free that washed out and advertised for gay something, i'd just use the free t-shirt to wipe my ass. Which wouldn't of changed the use of the shirt in any way, shape or form from the original logo.

Re:Genius. (5, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#37053074)

... that washed out and advertised for gay something, i'd just use the free t-shirt to wipe my ass...

So the moral is that when you get gay propaganda you stick it up your arse?

why attack them? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#37052634)

I prefer right-wing extremists over people who attack others because of their political views.

Re:why attack them? (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#37052668)

I prefer...extremists over people who attack others because of their political views.

I don't believe you understand how extremists work.

Re:why attack them? (5, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#37052670)

Yes, right-wing extremists are known worldwide for their tolerance and inclusive rhetoric.

Why dramatize it? (1)

MokuMokuRyoushi (1701196) | more than 3 years ago | (#37052688)

I prefer political assailants over people who exaggerate to enforce a weak point. Let's be straight though. This isn't an attack. A sneaky(also clever) campaign, for sure, and I'm sure it caused some emotional distress. But there was no physical harm, no substantial mental scarring or emotional hurt. If this ingenious and devious advertisement is to be called an attack, it was a harmless one.

Re:Why dramatize it? (1)

Belial6 (794905) | more than 3 years ago | (#37052812)

Except that it gives them a reason to rationalize that [Group of Choice] are shifty, deceitful, and can't be trusted.

Re:why attack them? (2)

AvitarX (172628) | more than 3 years ago | (#37052732)

I prefer harmless attacks on political views over those that would use politics to interfere with my life.

Re:why attack them? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#37052816)

I see where you're coming from. There are two kinds of people I hate in the World: people who are intolerant of other cultures and the Dutch.

I think we should hang ....

Re:why attack them? (1)

FunkSoulBrother (140893) | more than 3 years ago | (#37052884)

Jesus man, I mean it would suck pretty bad to hate the Dutch and all, but no need to kill yourself!

Re:why attack them? (2)

sjames (1099) | more than 3 years ago | (#37052846)

Attack?

A trick tee-shirt that reveals it's message in a quiet moment at home is an attack now?

An attack would be if it used a small explosive charge to tattoo rainbow brite on their chests.

That is awesome (4, Interesting)

KingSkippus (799657) | more than 3 years ago | (#37052646)

That is one of the most awesome ideas I've read about. I especially liked the part where they acknowledged that it probably won't do any good now, but it plants the name in their heads for when they're ready to get out of their extremist organization.

Say, anyone want to chip in for some t-shirts to give away at the next Tea Party convention?

Re:That is awesome (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#37052660)

You know, you could double a Tea Partyer's knowledge of economics with a message printed on a t-shirt.

Re:That is awesome (0)

phantomfive (622387) | more than 3 years ago | (#37052916)

Or a liberal's. Take the quiz and see if you're better [wsj.com] . Stupidity and demagoguing all around!

Seriously, the average American learned about economics in High School, and that's it. A good portion of people who THINK they know about economics learned about it from partisan blogs/TV/radio, and end up believing that 'government spending destroys jobs' or that 'the US has never defaulted.'

Re:That is awesome (2)

rolfwind (528248) | more than 3 years ago | (#37052996)

'government spending destroys jobs'

It can. The money has to come from somewhere. It all depends on how much. And it also depends what it is spent on. This all harkens back to the broken window fallacy:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parable_of_the_broken_window [wikipedia.org]

But it's not a hard and fast rule. But 3-second soundbites rule the day. But not all jobs are good either. Toll booths collectors are jobs. But they add nothing to anybody's standard of living (decrease it actually, except their own, and those above in the bureacratic structure they support) nor make anything of benefit to anybody.

Re:That is awesome (1)

phantomfive (622387) | more than 3 years ago | (#37053026)

In some places that might make sense, but when Boehner talked about Obama's "Job destroying spending" he was using a rhetorical trick, and he was completely wrong. The spending Obama did was in the present, and it most certainly created jobs, and the money to do so came from China and from the Federal Reserve. At some time in the future it might hurt, but right now it certainly did not.

Re:That is awesome (1)

rolfwind (528248) | more than 3 years ago | (#37053202)

The spending Obama did was in the present, and it most certainly created jobs, and the money to do so came from China and from the Federal Reserve. At some time in the future it might hurt, but right now it certainly did not.

How can that be said when days ago we just had a downgrade in credit and the market is bleeding?

The stimulus may have cost $278k per job, some of that analysis though is handwaving and ignoring the value of the few infrastructure investments themselves (hardly hoover dam projects though, bunch of little meaningless crap), but there is some ugly truth to that. Maybe, as a nation, we should be asking "Did we gain productivity" or something.

We always use the wrong metrics to measure the health of the economy. In the mid-00s, it was all about rising home values. That was kinda ignoring the downside to that besides the craziness of the values themselves. Namely expensive homes = expensive housing. This hearken back to the 1920-30s where Government started tax benefits to make everyone a home owner and setting off the 1950s suburban craze... which is a f-ing inefficient model for an entire nation's use of various resources but I digress....

Or maybe forgo stimulus packages altogether. I think Japan had at least a dozen since it's slump in the early 90s, and all it got for its efforts is a massive debt. IIRC, Bush did 5 of them, 3 of them in his last two years, and it didn't do squat as far as warding off the economic slump near the end of his term.

Corrections have to happen. I would almost rather give welfare to out of work people for a year or two to tide them over until the bottom passes rather than make stimulus packages where some of that money goes to "jobs"/"wages" and the rest to Corps building worthless shit. From what I have seen, wages of the middle classe and lower have stagnated since the 1970s, and CEOs/VPs and the like certainly don't need the taxpayer's help.

Re:That is awesome (2, Insightful)

glodime (1015179) | more than 3 years ago | (#37053066)

That survey is bias and very uninformative. I would bet that your answer would be scored as incorrect even though you recognize that there is a conditional answer. You would be forced choose between 1) strongly agree; 2) somewhat agree; 3) somewhat disagree; 4) strongly disagree; 5) are not sure, you might be tempted to choose 3. I would argue that the correct answer to many of the survey questions is 5 due to lack of information or ambiguity in the questions.

For example:

5) Third World workers working for American companies overseas are being exploited (unenlightened answer: agree).

So I'm supposed to agree that there are no such workers being exploited; there is no undocumented slavery connected to any American company? I'm supposed to agree on the surveyor's definition of exploitation?

This is not to say that self identified liberals aren't less knowledgeable of economic theory or data. I'm simply saying that the survey is poorly designed.

Re:That is awesome (1)

glodime (1015179) | more than 3 years ago | (#37053094)

Also the survey was only given to actively enrolled college students. Without looking, I assume that the majority are freshmen and self identify as liberal.

Re:That is awesome (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#37053080)

The money has to come from somewhere.

Fiat currency is created ex nihlo.

Re:That is awesome (5, Insightful)

artor3 (1344997) | more than 3 years ago | (#37053032)

What a load of crap. A conservative, writing for a conservative paper, looks at some polls. He labels the answers he disagrees with as "unenlightened" and then feigns surprise when the people he disagrees with are most likely to choose the "unenlightened" answers. Therefore, anyone who disagrees with him is "dumber than a fifth grader". Ironically, a fifth grader could probably see the flaw in his logic.

And it's not like these questions have hard and fast answers. Let's look at some examples:

"Overall, the standard of living is higher today than it was 30 years ago (unenlightened answer: disagree)"

Excuse me, but whose standard of living is he talking about? For the bottom sixty percent of Americans (also known as "the majority"), their inflation adjusted income has declined over the past thirty years. And meanwhile the safety nets meant to keep them out of the gutter have been systematically shredded. Welfare is gone, the current batch of Republicans already voted to end Medicare and will do so if they ever get a majority, and Social Security is undoubtedly next on the hit list. Of course, if you're talking about the looters in the top 1%, they're doing great.

"Third World workers working for American companies overseas are being exploited (unenlightened answer: agree)"

Are you fucking kidding me? I, personally, have see my overseas coworkers get exploited. The statement wasn't that every third world worker gets exploited. This guy's an absolute hack. But what else could one expect from a Murdoch-owned rag like the Wall Street Journal?

Re:That is awesome (0, Troll)

phantomfive (622387) | more than 3 years ago | (#37053088)

Heh, next are you going to tell me that minimum wages don't increase unemployment? Your entire post is basically showing that you've let partisan politics get in your way of seeing reality. You have choice now: you can either choose to reassess your position, and figure out how things really are, or you can pretend this didn't happen and go on blindly.

Your standard of living statistics read like you got them from some leftist propaganda website. Measuring standard of living is difficult of course, for example the French have a different way of measuring it, but check out this graph for one counterpoint [google.com] . Any serious analysis (read: not partisan) of standard of living will show that for most people in the US in the last 30 years, it's gotten better.

Now go and enlighten yourself.

Re:That is awesome (4, Insightful)

artor3 (1344997) | more than 3 years ago | (#37053152)

You arrogant twit. I get my data directly from the Bureau of Labor Statistics, same as your graph. But unlike you, I restricted the query to wage earners, instead of letting executives and wall street looters pull up the average.

Stop repeating the drivel you heard from Lord Murdoch and get your own facts.

Re:That is awesome (1)

pecosdave (536896) | more than 3 years ago | (#37053092)

People think I'm stupid for being a Libertarian. I've never taken them seriously, because look at the source. I like the article, thanks.

Parent summary is biased (3, Insightful)

lavagolemking (1352431) | more than 3 years ago | (#37053166)

Ok, I'll bite. Those questions are heavily weighted to someone's political beliefs, in an apparent attempt to confirm right-wing ideologies, and paint liberals as ignorant about the economy with conservatives being the guys with an educashun. Not surprising, given that it's published by a company owned by Rupert Murdoch (who also owns Fox News). Basically, if you disagree with their viewpoints, you're "unenlightened". Let's take a look at the questions:

  • 1) Mandatory licensing of professional services increases the prices of those services (unenlightened answer: disagree). Liberals generally support licensing of professional services, while conservatives support deregulation. Aside from direct economic consequences, the question doesn't account for consequences of unqualified professional services, such as medical complications from an unlicensed doctor operating on you.
  • 2) Overall, the standard of living is higher today than it was 30 years ago (unenlightened answer: disagree). This is a matter of perspective; conservatives are often of a higher socio-economic class, while liberals (who unsurprisingly support welfare/entitlement programs) are more commonly of a lower class. Additionally, since conservatives are also commonly older, many liberals were not around 30 years ago, and have only seen the economic decline.
  • 3) Rent control leads to housing shortages (unenlightened answer: disagree). Another loaded deregulation argument. Although true, lack of rent control leads to high rent prices, and a higher rate of homelessness among those who cannot afford high rent. A lot of conservatives believe in leaving free-market economics to treat basic essential needs such as food, water, and shelter as a commodity, while liberals are more likely to believe in guaranteeing such "commodities" to underprivileged citizens. It is not a farfetched mistake to confuse increased homelessness with housing shortages, and this type of question almost seems to imply a housing "shortage" is somehow worse than those houses being empty with people living on the streets.
  • 4) A company with the largest market share is a monopoly (unenlightened answer: agree). Although by no means the definition of a monopoly, anybody here can agree that companies in a given sector with the largest market share (Microsoft, etc.) probably has the largest market share because of their monopoly. Correlation vs. Causation: a lot of people without a background in statistics miss that. Conservatives or libertarians who believe monopolies don't exist will probably say false for that reason.
  • 5) Third World workers working for American companies overseas are being exploited (unenlightened answer: agree). This one is just outright wrong. Free-market economics lead to large multinationals (Apple, Nike, etc.) outsourcing labor and production to the country with the cheapest rates. This, in turn, leads to companies who pay the lowest sweatshop-level wages with no benefits, ludicrous requirements on things like bathroom breaks, and anti-unionizing intimidation, getting all the bids. Basically, third world countries cutting costs at the expense of workers, where minimum wage laws and other worker-protection laws don't apply. I guess if you disagree on principles of exploitation and human rights, or on the definition of third world workers, as many conservatives I've spoken with seem to, then you could consider this false, but that's definitely not how a liberal will see it. I've met a lot of conservatives who think that there is nothing morally wrong with sweatshops, which are a boon to their workers.
  • 6) Free trade leads to unemployment (unenlightened answer: agree). Looks a lot more like a conservative talking point than a scientific economic question to me. Interesting that it appears close to the end of the survey, after all those loaded questions. In some cases, yes it does; look at what is happening in the U.S. economy as a result of a deregulated (or self-regulated) financial sector, look at what happened with Enron, look at what is happening with support and programming jobs in the U.S. (outsourced to third world countries). Granted, certain types of restrictions on free trade, particularly those which favor larger multinational corporations, do lead to unemployment, but a "free market" (TM), as in lack of regulation, can often lead to unemployment, along with a number of other social issues.
  • 7) Minimum wage laws raise unemployment (unenlightened answer: disagree). Last economic textbook I read seemed to describe this as controversial and not universally agreed upon by economists. Generally speaking, if you need workers, then you will hire workers, so I'd tend to disagree. This in turn will lead to unemployment as consumers who have money to buy your product fade out of the picture. On one hand, it is believed companies will pay a set amount for employees, regardless of how many man-hours they get, so while the workers who have the jobs may be better off, there will be fewer. On the other hand, if you can get away with paying a quarter per day, and everybody else is doing it, then you will probably do just that. As consumers (who are also workers) get paid less, they will buy fewer commodities, in turn leading to a decreased demand. Naturally, liberals who believe in protecting the poor and working class, or in workers' rights and labor unions, favor higher working/living standards and will probably side with the later argument about minimum wage laws.

In summary, the entire linked article is just a conservative cherry-picking economic talking points to give liberals and conservatives in a scientific-looking survey, then present anybody who disagrees with his beliefs as uninformed.

Re:That is awesome (0)

lexsird (1208192) | more than 3 years ago | (#37053030)

Double it? That is a conservative number. (no pun intended)

I don't know what Germany's Rightwingers are like, but I know ours have lost their minds. The rich here have done their homework and have been running a very twisted nationalism/religion campaign that has them dancing like puppets. We are being pillaged in the mean time, and being slowly eased into a police/prison state second to none in history.

Our so called "left" really isn't very "left" at all. It's like watching Pro Wrestling, you see the star come out and then some schmuck comes out to be a chew toy for him. Think of American politics as a semi intellectual version of professional wrestling. They take turns playing straw man for each other, keeping the dullards engaged. All the while, everyone dances on their puppet strings. If you can mentally disengage from it, perhaps on an emotional level, you can draw far enough back hopefully to see the big picture of it objectively. Always zoom out to the big picture whenever you can, I say. Things make more sense.

What I find amazing is how people think their opinions are their own. Like these Teabaggers for example. They really think they are cutting edge stuff. But in fact, they are a bunch of fucking retards. They being 99% of them work for a paycheck are protesting to protect those who are so above them on the financial ladder it's comical. It's like the homeless in America having a protest because Donald Trump didn't make a few extra millions last year. Only this isn't comical, because they extorted us to the extent the whole world considers us a financial problem. Christ, when you have China bitching we are politically unstable, how low can we sink?

I was looking into something someone posted, about Cargo Cults, and I will be damned if it doesn't fit America right now. We literally worship the rich and think they will let us have some more crumbs from their tables. They aren't going to do no such thing. First, they have decimated the American work force by either outsourcing it, or using illegal aliens if they can't move their industry. Both parties let them get away with it, because both parties are fucking puppets. Until we rip the control over this situation from their hands, they are going to keep fucking us with it.

First we need to pull our military back out of EVERYWHERE. Then we need our military to round up every God damned illegal alien in the country from top to bottom, and kick them to the curb. We also need to imprison anyone who hires them. Not only imprison them, but seize every fucking asset they have. They made this money at the expense of Americans, now we take it back with interest.

Secondly fuck you and your treasonous trade agreements. Imports will be once again a luxury. We need to tariff the fuck out of anything that competes with us here at home. Everyone else does it to us, so it's high time we say fuck you back. This forces industry to start back up in America, because it creates an environment of not only demand, but a chance to actually make a profit HERE, not by fucking labor here by having it made THERE. If the world doesn't like it, they can go fuck themselves. Come up with a FAIR trade agreement that doesn't fuck our workers and we can have a dialog. Until then, fuck off or eat some nukes.

Third, we need a Fair Tax system that is etched in fucking stone. This would be a flat tax that gets money from everyone and there are no loop holes. This means that politicians will have one less thing to be bribed over. And FUCK CORPORATE loopholes that let them fuck the system over. These multinational corporations that duck into punk assed countries that lure them in with tax breaks. FUCK YOU. We burn your asses for tax evasion and seize every fucking dime you have in America, bar you from ever doing business here, and if you fucked us hard enough, we send Black Ops to hunt you down in whatever country you are hiding in and we kill your ass. Then piss on your corpse, dance on your grave and make a film about it bragging how we will keep doing it and if nobody likes it, they can go fuck themselves or eat nukes.

Fourth, The middle east. Fuck all of you cocksuckers! First, we are taking FREE OIL for our troubles. Gas should be a dollar a gallon for a long time, we need to pay our road taxes, because frankly our roads are turning to shit. Oil companies? Fuck you! You have just been nationalized. How do you like them apples? I guess you shouldn't cock around and get greedy, huh?

While we are at it, The Medical Industry, Education, Pharmaceuticals, NATIONALIZED! Ha! These greedy fuckers shouldn't be in it to get rich off of us anyway. Think about it for a second or two before the propaganda conditioning kicks in and makes you scream socialist/communist. Just how great would it be for the rest of industry if they didn't get fucked with high bills in health, education and power? Holy fucking cow!

People love to bitch about Obamacare and they are right. You can't fix this by placating this fucked in the head system. You have to shoot it in the fucking head and start with something that makes sense. Right now our health care is tripped up with scumbag lawyers and insurance companies, AND corporations setting on top of it all worshiping the bottom line. That serves NOBODY, but the rich and even then, it fucks them too, not to mention, they can end up poor like everyone else and be just as fucked. If we try to shoehorn the average American into this fucked system, it's not going to work. Trash it. We need to run the medical industry like the military. We have the world's greatest military and it's a social program if there ever was one. It sure as fuck isn't privatized, again, stop and think a second or two before your propaganda conditioning kicks in.

People bitch about taxes, but want to live in "The greatest nation on Earth". Well, nations don't grow up out of the weeds. They take care and tending to and there has to be a sense of community to them. They need national pride, and their own culture to embrace. They need structure that benefits the whole, not the few.

Lastly we need to fix our safety net so that it bounces people back up on their feet and into life. The current one we have is fucking retardedly expensive because it doesn't work towards helping people UP, it just lets them stagnate and rot. This ties into our sorry as fuck education system. We need to cycle people into happy productive jobs. We need industry to be able to have educated productive workers that they can pay a fair wage to and not feel butt fucked by their labor costs. Living in America shouldn't take a household 2 or more jobs to support it. When is it going to bite us on the ass for letting kids raise themselves on the Internet?

Re:That is awesome (1, Troll)

dunkelfalke (91624) | more than 3 years ago | (#37053118)

I don't know what Germany's Rightwingers are like, but I know ours have lost their minds.

The summary was somewhat misleading. In Germany, there is nothing similar to the tea party kind of right wing nutters, just more or less openly radical neo-nazis. And exactly that kind of people was tricked by that awesome t-shirt.

Re:That is awesome (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#37052982)

mindshare really works, why do you think advertisers hype junk so much...

Re:That is awesome (1)

rolfwind (528248) | more than 3 years ago | (#37053012)

Say, anyone want to chip in for some t-shirts to give away at the next Tea Party convention?

I met a lot of ignorant Tea Partiers, but they seem to be at the bottom level. But many of the upper level people have a grasp.

The thing is, on the Democratic side, I have seen much of the same thing. The average voter is pretty ignorant, period.

Now, I know it went from a Ron Paul/Libertarian founded group to a Fox News/GOP overtaken "organization", but honestly, I find the heaps of scorn it recieves a bit ironic, as most Democrats (and the mainstream Democratic, and Republican Party) are just as bad.

Voodoo economics all around.

Re:That is awesome (4, Interesting)

artor3 (1344997) | more than 3 years ago | (#37053208)

The difference is that the wacko left-winger Democrats are kept out in the fringe, whereas the wacko Tea Party types have essentially taken over the Republican party. This situation is made worse by the fact that those same nitwits who control the GOP are receiving their marching orders from Fox News, as you said. So nearly half the government of the United States is now directly controlled by a single corporation. If that doesn't terrify you, it should.

Re:That is awesome (1)

drolli (522659) | more than 3 years ago | (#37053162)

Just sent one to everybody who owes more than one months salary to the the credit card companies.

Good thing... (3, Funny)

abednegoyulo (1797602) | more than 3 years ago | (#37052648)

it was not one of those gathering that simulates rain. Imagine their reaction if the artificial rain washes away the external print exposing the message hidden beneath. That would not be a party, would it..

Re:Good thing... (1)

maxwell demon (590494) | more than 3 years ago | (#37052868)

Of course, the watering in a washing machine is more intensive than any artificial rain could be (or otherwise you'd have to deal with drowning victims at the festival). Moreover, when washing, you are adding detergents to the water. Therefore it should well be possible to design a colour which keeps sufficiently stable under normal rain (natural or artificial), but not when washing.

Typical (1)

JumperCable (673155) | more than 3 years ago | (#37052682)

So what? Are they trying to white wash the issues?

Arguments? (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#37052690)

Arguments would have been better than shirts.
This is nothing but a confession of incapacity.

LOL (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#37052742)

Those Germans and their sense of humor...

In other news, hippy leftist faggots tricked by application of boot to head.

Kind of a stretch to say they were "tricked" (2)

Dachannien (617929) | more than 3 years ago | (#37052754)

I give you free stuff and it turns out to be unsuitable for its apparent purpose. Wow, I really tricked you there.

Still, it's kind of amusing.

Re:Kind of a stretch to say they were "tricked" (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#37053014)

I give you free stuff and it turns out to be unsuitable for its apparent purpose. Wow, I really tricked you there.

Still, it's kind of amusing.

You're the fucking asshole parents warned us about just before we went out on Halloween night, admit it.

This would only work on imposters anyway (1)

B1oodAnge1 (1485419) | more than 3 years ago | (#37052776)

everyone knows that if you're hardcore enough your clothes never get dirty.

Re:This would only work on imposters anyway (2)

Lisias (447563) | more than 3 years ago | (#37052836)

everyone knows that if you're hardcore enough your clothes never get laundered.


I fixed that for you.

That's retarded (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#37052824)

These idiots spent a bunch of their own money to give away something that their opponents enjoyed for a little while then were forced to throw out. The only people they tricked were themselves.

Become Neo-Nazi, get Free T-Shirt (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#37052896)

I want to become a Neo-Nazi now. You get all cool free T-Shirts and stuff.

I guess... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#37052976)

Neo-nazis was to long for the title so they had to type out Right-wing and extremists instead

Security through obscurity? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#37052978)

Why is it so f**king hard to find the name of the festival instead of just vague references?

For the record for anyone else interested: "Rock für Deutschland".

Brilliant! (1)

mSparks43 (757109) | more than 3 years ago | (#37052994)

Brilliant, just brilliant. Where can I buy them, I know a few people who could benefit from this.

What is Right Vs. Left in the German context? (0, Troll)

pecosdave (536896) | more than 3 years ago | (#37053028)

The definition of Right and Left is obviously blurred in the U.S., and I'm sure it is elsewhere, especially when statist/socialist type movements like Hitlers and Mussolini's are branded as Right Wing in places like Wikipedia, but statist/socialist movements like FDR's and Obama's (the former of which got fan mail from Mussolini who is branded Right Wing) are labeled Left Wing.

I can't stand when people talk politics and bust out left vs. right wing, when the definitions are blurred, especially when the guardians of Wikipedia use selective reference approval, brand anything negative Right and anything positive Left, and guard the articles with the iron fist of tenure.

If they're Neo-Nazi's please call them Neo-Nazi's. If they're something else, please call them something else, Left and Right labels are misused on such a frequent basis they're almost useless anymore. From what I've seen in Germany recently the "real" Neo-Nazi's are people who in power under other labels, and one of they ways they act like Nazi's is by quashing all reference to Nazi's and outlawing every video game they can. From what I can tell modern Neo-Nazi's are mostly punk anarchist in Germany, and in the U.S. they're usually ignorant racist rednecks. In any case they're the equivalent to every other racist extremist groups akin to MS-13, Triads, Black Panthers, etc..... Since when does a crime syndicate/gangster group really deserve a Left Vs. Right label?

Re:What is Right Vs. Left in the German context? (2)

artor3 (1344997) | more than 3 years ago | (#37053082)

Stop listening to Fox "News". There is no relationship between Nazis and socialism. The Nazis hated socialists. They simply co-opted the word for their name as a little trick to steal supporters. The Nazis were right-wing by all standards. I know it makes you sad that there have been bad people on your "team". Life is so much easier when you can see in black and white. The professional liars know this, and so they carefully craft their lies to let you think that way. They take every bad person in history, mix them all together, and then mix in their current victims (i.e. Obama) and you drink it all down.

It's poison, and you will never be able to think for yourself as long as you keep exposing yourself to it.

Re:What is Right Vs. Left in the German context? (1)

pecosdave (536896) | more than 3 years ago | (#37053160)

Nazi's hated communist, Hitler did what he could to dissociate the similarities between Socialism and Communism, much as today's Progressives try to disassociate social programs from socialism. I actually have a little admiration for people who call themselves Socialist, it beats the deniers who call themselves Progressives and Liberals (Liberal being a term corrupted to a point that makes it's real/original meaning unusable). Under the Nazi regime nearly every facet of life was controlled by the state, education, raising for children, employment, etc... Many businesses were "privately owned" but the ownership was little more than a shell in name and the companies were still mostly run by the party if they were allowed to continue to exist (think FDR's NRA and the Blue Eagle). To acquire new employment permission of the previous employer had to be obtained, most employment went into supporting the war (much like what happened in the U.S. only more regulated). Hitler had a diet plan in place he planned to slowly impose on his people, he had homedic medical plans he intended to impose and only got the first parts of most of his plans out the door before the war ended. Hitlers Germany was very much a socialist construct and was increasingly so as time progressed.

As for the rest of your comments - what team are you talking about as my team? I don't watch TV, nor do I intentionally listen to it, though it is often on in my work environment. Your Fox News references are invalid as I don't watch TV.

Are you calling me a Republican? If so I feel insulted. I do not play for either team in the Republicrat league.

I've dealt with many professional liars, company management, lawyers, police, and salesmen, you come across to me as an extremest team player on the Democrat side of the Republicrat league. FYI, it doesn't matter which side in that league wins, it's a win for the league and loss for the rest of us and pretty much the same garbage gets enacted.

Re:What is Right Vs. Left in the German context? (4, Insightful)

artor3 (1344997) | more than 3 years ago | (#37053174)

You can pretend to ignore the liars all you like. But the whole "Obama = Nazi Socialist!" tripe is a right-wing talking point that no intelligent, free-thinking person would believe. You've already revealed yourself to be poisoned. Maybe it was by Beck or Limbaugh or Free Republic, instead of Fox. But you're poisoned all the same. Try to cure yourself, instead of striking out at me.

Re:What is Right Vs. Left in the German context? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#37053182)

How are Nazi views anything but socialist? And as for hating socialists, they were eliminated due to competition for power, as Nazis were not interested in sharing the government with anyone.

Re:What is Right Vs. Left in the German context? (1)

sourcerror (1718066) | more than 3 years ago | (#37053194)

Hitler had socialistic policies for the preferred race. (See Lebensborn camps.)

"Private property rights were conditional upon the economic mode of use; if it did not advance Nazi economic goals, the state could nationalize it.[182] Nazi government corporate takeovers, and threatened takeovers, encouraged compliance with government production plans, even if unprofitable for the firm."

Re:What is Right Vs. Left in the German context? (3, Insightful)

cbope (130292) | more than 3 years ago | (#37053138)

Please do some research before you imply Hitler and Mussolini are not right-wing. Contrary to popular believe in the US, they were NOT leading socialist movements in any shape or form although they tried to disguise some of their activities under that false banner. They were nationalist right-wing extremists and fascists. They were absolutely not left-wing or socialist in any tangible way.

In the US it's more accurate to label politics as far right (republicans) or center right (democrats). There is no true left in popular US politics, even democrats are more right of center than in many other progressive countries (including many EU and all Nordic countries).

Re:What is Right Vs. Left in the German context? (1)

dunkelfalke (91624) | more than 3 years ago | (#37053154)

WTF? German neo-nazis are never punk anarchists. In fact, they beat up or even kill punks.

Also, get your other facts straight. In Germany, swastika is only allowed in the historical context because this law was dictated by the allied control council after the end of WW2.

more nazi's in america (2)

maverickjesterx (2434230) | more than 3 years ago | (#37053042)

I am an American that has lived in Germany for some time. Most of these people are not "children" and the definition of a "child" is quite different here than back home. Also to wear, own or display anything from the Nazi era will land you in jail unlike back home in America where you are free to where Nazi uniforms, fly their flags (I can think of one instance lately where a guy in Michigan flew a Nazi flag to celebrate his grandmothers birthday as he put it). Don't get me wrong there are still extremist here that want all Auslanders OUT. For Germans this is in the news for the humor of it, not like OMG the Nazi's are rallying.

Nazi views right-wing? (0, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#37053100)

Since when are fascist views right-wing? Nationalization of industry, forced labor, ousting of religion -- all are extremist left-wing views.

Not rightists... (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#37053110)

While Liberals today like to pretend otherwise, the Nazi's were the National Socialist Party and were, therefore, leftist by definition. That doesn't fit their modern narrative, of course, but what's a little rewriting of history in a good cause? Oh, yes - 1984.

Let us brasin wash you, shirt or slip? (0)

frovingslosh (582462) | more than 3 years ago | (#37053148)

So the message is "We don't like your right wing views, let us brain wash you and change you like this shirt was changed when it was washed". Doesn't seem likely that someone who wants to favor the right politically is going to see that and decide "neat, I'll have them brain wash me so that I can be a liberal." Maybe some of the left should have avoided their own brain washings. You have to wonder when a political group equates their belief with being brain washed. Freudian slip?
Load More Comments
Slashdot Login

Need an Account?

Forgot your password?

Submission Text Formatting Tips

We support a small subset of HTML, namely these tags:

  • b
  • i
  • p
  • br
  • a
  • ol
  • ul
  • li
  • dl
  • dt
  • dd
  • em
  • strong
  • tt
  • blockquote
  • div
  • quote
  • ecode

"ecode" can be used for code snippets, for example:

<ecode>    while(1) { do_something(); } </ecode>