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Pakistan Lets China View US Stealth Technology

Soulskill posted more than 2 years ago | from the probably-made-there-anyway dept.

The Military 297

Oswald McWeany writes "Tensions between the U.S. and Pakistan have moved up a notch in light of news that Pakistan allowed China to examine the downed stealth helicopter used in the operation to kill Osama bin Laden. Pakistan also provided Chinese intelligence with samples of the 'stealth skin.' 'Pakistan enjoys a close relationship with China, which is a major investor in telecommunications, ports and infrastructure in the country.'"

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297 comments

Oh boo hoo (1, Flamebait)

zget (2395308) | more than 2 years ago | (#37099692)

Did US and Pakistan have some kind of deal where they are not allowed to improve their technology with their friends if US happens to dump their trash all over the country? US would do exactly the same with UK or their other girlfriends.

Re:Oh boo hoo (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37099832)

No the US had the deal to tell the Pakistan government before shooting someone. And from the Pakistani position it makes no difference when the person is a wanted criminal or not. And BTW the US does a lot of technology spying in Europe. Nowadays the Chinese do the same shit. And now it is so bad.

Re:Oh boo hoo (4, Insightful)

YrWrstNtmr (564987) | more than 2 years ago | (#37100146)

No the US had the deal to tell the Pakistan government before shooting someone.

And the deal going the other way was to A) not harbor a wanted criminal, and B) assist in finding said criminal. They failed on both counts.

Propaganda Bullshit Disinfo (1, Troll)

Jeremiah Cornelius (137) | more than 2 years ago | (#37100196)

The "copter" was such a setup. Look at the photos. A prop.

Also supposedly, bin Laden had no radio or Internet communications - not even TV! But half of the early photos show a huge dish - later removed.

There is nothing about that story that has any truth in it. They even "ditched" the body before any validation.

Then the once trustworthy New Yorker publishes a "real narrative" of the mission - written by an intelligence operative, who's the son of a former CIA official.

There is nothing here but lies. The only thing you can KNOW FOR SURE is that NONE of this is true.

Re:Propaganda Bullshit Disinfo (2)

icebike (68054) | more than 2 years ago | (#37100432)

The copter was not a prop. So I stopped reading the rest of your drivel right there.

Re:Propaganda Bullshit Disinfo (1, Troll)

Jeremiah Cornelius (137) | more than 2 years ago | (#37100590)

Yes. My mistake.

The CIA earns its check by telling you the truth.

Question: Do you believe the US to be a covert police state? If you answer "No", is this based on verified independent observation, historic reputation or emotional reaction?

I submit that it IS a covert police state, operating extra-legally with regards to its foreign relations and its internal policy.

Why not read something you might disagree with? Or is that "not the American way"?
http://dissidentvoice.org/2011/08/as-economy-tanks-new-normal-police-state-takes-shape/ [dissidentvoice.org]

The US has the largest per-capita prisoner population in world history. You can say they broke the law. But what is "law" without the informed consent of the governed? Re-read the link, and ask if such a condition exists in the secret police state of America.

Not exactly "home of the free" now, is it?

Re:Propaganda Bullshit Disinfo (1)

brit74 (831798) | more than 2 years ago | (#37100446)

Your comment assumes that the dish was working. It looks like a very old dish, perhaps 1980s-era, so it's not unreasonable that it no longer worked. Maybe it was used by the previous owners until it fell into disrepair. Also, the pictures I saw of the dish showed the dish pointing almost at the horizon (not up in the sky), which also hints that it might not have been in working condition.

Re:Propaganda Bullshit Disinfo (2)

Jeremiah Cornelius (137) | more than 2 years ago | (#37100516)

The story has a compound built for bin Laden.

You assume that there is a benefit or obligation of intelligence agencies and "secret operations teams" in supplying you with facts.

You are like a peasant, regarding the mediaeval church.

Re:Oh boo hoo (1)

Jeremiah Cornelius (137) | more than 2 years ago | (#37100252)

Oceania has always been at war with East Asia.

Re:Oh boo hoo (1)

sortius_nod (1080919) | more than 2 years ago | (#37100408)

say what?

I don't recall Australia or New Zealand always being at war with East Asia...

I don't think Oceania means what you think it means.

Re:Oh boo hoo (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37100546)

do you think you might know what "WHOOSH" means?

Re:Oh boo hoo (0, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37099842)

heh, and I love when the US show their stupidly high elitist ego by saying they created every technology they use.

Re:Oh boo hoo (5, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37099858)

Boo hoo, indeed.

There is no need for the US to keep financing the Pakistani military. The upper echelons of their military is living high on the hog, based on the US aid, and and as result has no incentive to end the war. The upper echelons are not suffering any pain, it's the lower echelons and the normal people that are paying the price. And since they know what the upper echelons are doing, they hate them (and the US) for that. Nukes or no nukes, there is no reason for the US to keep the river of money flowing, certainly not in these times. Leave Pakistan to its own devices. Their military knows what the Mossad, the Indians and their proxies will do them and their families if they let things get out of hand.

Re:Oh boo hoo (3, Interesting)

sortius_nod (1080919) | more than 2 years ago | (#37100438)

The US funds the Pakistani military for their OWN benefit, not for Pakistan's. It's leverage, same as China.

US already knew China had huge investment in Pakistan so they have no one to blame but themselves. They know Pakistan is of higher strategic importance than China knowing how a stealth chopper was built.

Re:Oh boo hoo (3, Interesting)

Rob the Bold (788862) | more than 2 years ago | (#37100044)

Did US and Pakistan have some kind of deal where they are not allowed to improve their technology with their friends if US happens to dump their trash all over the country? US would do exactly the same with UK or their other girlfriends.

Well, Pakistan does have an "accept several hundred billion dollars a year from the US" deal. If China's making them a better offer, then Pakistan's actions make sense.

Re:Oh boo hoo (2)

Oxford_Comma_Lover (1679530) | more than 2 years ago | (#37100118)

Did US and Pakistan have some kind of deal where they are not allowed to improve their technology with their friends if US happens to dump their trash all over the country? US would do exactly the same with UK or their other girlfriends.

Well, Pakistan does have an "accept several hundred billion dollars a year from the US" deal. If China's making them a better offer, then Pakistan's actions make sense.

You are assuming short-term monetary gain is the most important factor in the deal.

At the time, it was an expected reaction.

The rational thing to do for monetary gain would have been to offer the stealth tail to the highest bidder, with a higher premium required if someone wants no photographs.

But Pakistan was really pissed at the US. Think how we would feel if the Mexican or Canadian army send a special forces team into West Point or Fort Worth to arrest a drug kingpin without our consent. Now multiply it by at least ten (due to more anti-American sentiment in Pakistan to begin with).

Re:Oh boo hoo (2)

Archangel Michael (180766) | more than 2 years ago | (#37100266)

Your assumptions are all wrong.

First off, if Mexico or Canada knew a Drug kingpin was hiding in the US, and told the US, the US would have apprehended the guy/gal. This is NOT the case in Pakistan, where people in the government were and ARE actively helping Taliban and most likely even Bin Ladin.

This is more like the US under Obama and Holder supplying guns to Mexican Drug Lords, and not letting Mexico know we are doing it. Mexico should be pissed, but we're bigger and more organized so they just send patrols "off course" into US territory occasionally.

The reason we give tons of money to Pakistan's Military is to keep the NUKES out of Al Queda's hands, assuming they don't already have any. Pakistan is not our friend.

Re:Oh boo hoo (1)

Oxford_Comma_Lover (1679530) | more than 2 years ago | (#37100336)

We don't know it's not the case in Pakistan, because we didn't try it. If it makes you feel better, pretend the Drug Kingpin was bribing the feds to tip him off.

Re:Oh boo hoo (4, Informative)

Dahamma (304068) | more than 2 years ago | (#37100200)

Well, Pakistan does have an "accept several hundred billion dollars a year from the US" deal. If China's making them a better offer, then Pakistan's actions make sense.

You put that in quotations as if it was a quoted fact... but several hundred billion dollars a year? The US yearly defense budget is a bit over $600B, Pakistan doesn't get half of that. The real number is $1-2B. Still a lot, but off by a couple orders of magnitude there ;)

Though to your point, the US just withheld $800M of that yearly aid last month after the latest concerns about Pakistan's military allegiances. Looks like that might backfire if they just get money from China instead.

Dealing w/ Pakistan: More trouble than it's worth. (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37099760)

Pakistan is really just one of those countries we either shouldn't have pissed off or should've just done away with.

No surprise. (2, Insightful)

wsxyz (543068) | more than 2 years ago | (#37099764)

I would say that's just what you get for leaving your stuff in someone else's house.
I'm sure this wasn't really a surprise to the US. That's why the seals spent valuable time doing their best to destroy the helicopter.

Re:No surprise. (4, Insightful)

grimmjeeper (2301232) | more than 2 years ago | (#37099960)

I'm sure the SEALs destroyed the stuff that really matters. Stealth technology is not new. China has already started testing their own prototype of a stealth plane [wsj.com] . Will the Chinese learn something from what was left behind? Maybe. Maybe not.

I suspect that if this technology was so uber-secret, we would have saturated the place with enough ordinance to blow it into dust. So either it's not so terribly secret (the SEALs destroying what needed to be destroyed) or there was a plan to leave it behind specifically to mislead. Either way, I'd suggest this is a tempest in a teacup.

Re:No surprise. (4, Interesting)

ElectricTurtle (1171201) | more than 2 years ago | (#37100084)

Your surmise is correct. That's what happened when the Chinese embassy was 'accidentally' bombed during the conflict in the Balkans. A stealth aircraft had recently been shot down and the Chinese were known to have collected a ton of parts from the wreckage, and they were being held in the embassy awaiting extraction to China. Whoops, a whole ton of precision guided ordnance accidentally wiped it out. Fancy that.

Re:No surprise. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37100206)

That's really interesting. Even more so if it's true.

Re:No surprise. (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37100384)

Except it was not, it was out of Serbia by the time the misguided missile hit the embassy. The result is the new Chinese stealth fighter that scared the Washington post some months ago.

Re:No surprise. (1)

ElectricTurtle (1171201) | more than 2 years ago | (#37100458)

The current Chinese stealth aircraft is obviously a copy of the F-22, whereas the aircraft downed in the Balkans is believed to have been a F-117. F-22s were not operationally deployed at that time. So unless the Chinese really sculpted the lion from the paw, you are solidly mistaken.

Re:No surprise. (1)

mirix (1649853) | more than 2 years ago | (#37100532)

The way I remember it, the Russians got the skin of the plane for analysis, though.

Part of the plane is in the museum just outside Belgrade, though.

Re:No surprise. (1)

Oxford_Comma_Lover (1679530) | more than 2 years ago | (#37100174)

Yes, they will learn what shape to fabricate a helicopter stealth rotor in in order to build their own stealth aircraft or to test their high-power radar. Unless, of course, they already have the plans, which is entirely possible because China seems to routinely steal US Stealth plans (I've heard this from nonclassified sources and don't know if it's true but suspect there's at least some truth to it). AFAIK, we have much better sigint but they have much better cyber offensive units. I'm not sure how human intelligence assets play out, but I'd expect them to have an advantage. (But maybe not.)

Re:No surprise. (1)

petes_PoV (912422) | more than 2 years ago | (#37100478)

So either it's not so terribly secret ...

I doubt that there's much in the way of real secrets that the US has that the chinese and every other country with a significant ethnic presence in the USA don't already know about. Having samples and knowing its capabilities (and what its weakness are) is one thing - needing to use it yourself and developing the ability to produce it is another.

After all, it's not as if the chinese feel threatened by american military might.

Re:No surprise. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37100060)

The Chinese just wanted to know if the helicopter failed due to one of the parts manufactured in China. As they use it in their stuff too.

Re:No surprise. (2)

im_thatoneguy (819432) | more than 2 years ago | (#37100256)

Then again when you're harboring a felon in your basement "OMG how did he get there?" and your uncle is a cop and paying your rent, best not to sell one of the cop's guns accidentally left behind during the bust on ebay .

So China has samples of the stealth skin? (1)

arcite (661011) | more than 2 years ago | (#37099782)

It's useless without the formula for the secret serum! It'll make a nice paperweight though...

Re:So China has samples of the stealth skin? (1)

pastyM (1580389) | more than 2 years ago | (#37099878)

Have you ever heard of revers engineering?

Re:So China has samples of the stealth skin? (1)

p0p0 (1841106) | more than 2 years ago | (#37099932)

That helicopter must have been carrying the joke as it whooshed past your head.

Re:So China has samples of the stealth skin? (4, Insightful)

tloh (451585) | more than 2 years ago | (#37100178)

Years ago, we discussed this in my organic chemistry class during a lab exercise using GC-MS (gas chromatography - mass spectrometry). Just because you know what something is made of does not mean you can replicate the process that makes it. That is why things that matter a great deal of money to certain businesses such as the formula for coca-cola or the colonel's 11 special spices are still secure despite their wide-spread availability. Things may have changed, but it still seems like most of material science can be compared to one way functions so widely used in cryptography. It is relatively easier to make something by putting things together than it is to reverse the process in a meaningful way.

Re:So China has samples of the stealth skin? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37099910)

You're thinking too offensively. They also need to study it for defensive purposes. Even if they can't replicate the technology, there is much to be learned of it from a defensive perspective.

Re:So China has samples of the stealth skin? (1)

Oxford_Comma_Lover (1679530) | more than 2 years ago | (#37100182)

You're thinking too offensively.

That's every American's God Given Right!

Re:So China has samples of the stealth skin? (1)

tloh (451585) | more than 2 years ago | (#37100242)

Well done! It is just as useful for an adversary to study how a weapon fails or doesn't work as the whole point of defense is to induce failure in said weapon or render it useless. How successful were the SEAL teams were at destroying the critical tech in the chopper? If I'll be fighting against this weapon in the foreseeable future, I want to be able to render such destruction on the battlefield.

Re:So China has samples of the stealth skin? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37099934)

It's useless without the formula for the secret serum!

You know these shitty times and everything ....

I have fantasized about creating a fake Lockheed badge, mixing black paint, tire patching cement and some Gorilla Glue, and then trying to sell the "stealth coating" to the Chinese for MILLIONS. And then hiding like a coward somewhere with what's left after paying my student loans.

That's right, I'm more afraid of my student loan lender than I am about a Chinese hit squad.

Re:So China has samples of the stealth skin? (1)

phobos512 (766371) | more than 2 years ago | (#37100022)

"They wanted me to build them a bomb, so I took their plutonium and, in turn, gave them a shoddy bomb casing full of old used pinball machine parts!"

Re:So China has samples of the stealth skin? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37100034)

I work for Lockheed. How did you get our secret stealth formula???

You might need to worry more about us now.

Re:So China has samples of the stealth skin? (1)

Oxford_Comma_Lover (1679530) | more than 2 years ago | (#37100194)

I work for Lockheed. How did you get our secret stealth formula???

You might need to worry more about us now.

The guy at your gate sells it for $10.99 to use in roofing shingles.

Re:So China has samples of the stealth skin? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37100430)

The guy at your gate sells it for $10.99 to use in roofing shingles.

Cool, so now we can hide our house from Google Earth!

the pinball factory was looking for some older par (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37100440)

the pinball factory was looking for some older parts to try to remake some old games.

Made in China? (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37099798)

Parts for the helicopter were probably made in China anyway.

Made in China (3, Funny)

CHK6 (583097) | more than 2 years ago | (#37099812)

{tongue and check}Chinese engineers were shocked to learn that many of the components uncovered from the wreckage were stamped with "Made in China."

Re:Made in China (2)

CrimsonAvenger (580665) | more than 2 years ago | (#37100294)

{tongue and check}

Tongue in cheek.

Red Herring? (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37099824)

Is it possible that the US left that helicopter there in order to mislead interested parties on stealth countermeasures and development?

Might that helicopter be, in essence, a doomed spy?

Re:Red Herring? (1)

Oxford_Comma_Lover (1679530) | more than 2 years ago | (#37100244)

Is it possible that the US left that helicopter there in order to mislead interested parties on stealth countermeasures and development?

Might that helicopter be, in essence, a doomed spy?

Not really, no. This was a raid against Osama. They would have gone with the simplest and most effective plan. Get in. Kill Osama. Gather hardware. Get out before Pakistan shows up.

Besides, they would not have wanted to use stealth tech that didn't work, assuming they have tech that did. It would be a career-ender for whoever came up with the idea if Pakistan detected it.

No shit, sherlock? (4, Interesting)

NeutronCowboy (896098) | more than 2 years ago | (#37099830)

I'm not sure why anyone didn't see this coming.... I was actually surprised they didn't send some locals to clean up the chopper rests. Either that, or it's really not that advanced. Radar-reducing skins are known, and the shape didn't seem that out of the ordinary. Oh look, a cover over the tail rotor to reduce radar signature. The biggest deal would be the electronics. I can only hope they were reduced to dust.

Re:No shit, sherlock? (1)

MozeeToby (1163751) | more than 2 years ago | (#37099876)

Important electronics would have been fused into oblivion long before they dropped the thermal charges in. At least, if everyone did their job they should be.

300 million dollar helicopter (0, Troll)

assemblerex (1275164) | more than 2 years ago | (#37099834)

Anyone else find it stupid we would spend so much on a helicopter? Only the U.S....

Re:300 million dollar helicopter (4, Informative)

afidel (530433) | more than 2 years ago | (#37099948)

It's only $300M because there was an entire multidecade R&D program behind it and there have only been a few units produced, the marginal cost of a unit is probably no more than $60-70M (base unit is $44M, add 50% for materials and advanced electronics). Heck they might also be assigning the cost of the Comanche program to those few units since to my eye it looks like the took the Comanche tech and applied it to a Black Hawk.

Re:300 million dollar helicopter (1)

Oxford_Comma_Lover (1679530) | more than 2 years ago | (#37100258)

Keep in mind that the actual cost per unit will also be significantly higher than the projected cost per unit--this is a truism in military hardware that stems from the fact that they cancel most programs far before the projected unit count is reached to amortize the R&D costs the way that the projections are given to Congress.

Re:300 million dollar helicopter (1)

afidel (530433) | more than 2 years ago | (#37100342)

Yep, Congress always decide that spending the last 10-20% of the total budget to actually get the hardware is too expensive for some reason. This phenomenon is particularly perplexing to me since the actual manufacturing jobs are the ones that tend to best spread the money among the different states, the R&D jobs tend to be more concentrated. I was very pissed when they cancelled the F-22 program so early, spending another 10% would have meant we had a nice reserve of airframes instead of having another B1 program where any crash is so catastrophic that it risks the entire program, then again with what retrofits end up costing perhaps it's for the best.

Re:300 million dollar helicopter (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37100370)

I'm sure if they ran an audit on the use of funds of the Air Force and it's suppliers those costs would go down even more, a lot more.

Re:300 million dollar helicopter (1)

sixsixtysix (1110135) | more than 2 years ago | (#37100080)

because instead of having the military do their own r&d in-house and at cost, we waste billions on these third party crooks who are getting fat suckling the teet of our government. lockheed-martin, boeing, raytheon, et. al. can all die in a fire.

Re:300 million dollar helicopter (1)

wozzinator (1079319) | more than 2 years ago | (#37100192)

You realize that not every good engineer goes into the military right? If they only let the militaries corp of engineers do research we would've been destroyed as a country a long time ago (since there aren't enough good engineers in the military). The USAF didn't even want to pursue stealth technology at first because they wanted to push for faster and farther flying missiles. Now look at how much stealth has done for us in terms of reconnaissance and bombing. It took Ben Rich at Lockheed Skunk Works to convince them. Yeah the projects go overpriced often, but if it wasn't for defense contracting companies the US would be defenseless.

Re:300 million dollar helicopter (1)

poity (465672) | more than 2 years ago | (#37100122)

Not stupid at all. This is economies of scale. There's no assembly line churning out stealth helicopters with customers down the line buying them up by the thousands, so what do you expect these to be other than expensive? Most of the parts are probably machined and assembled by hand by a team of engineers/mechanics with secret clearance -- they're not Foxconn workers getting $2/day.

Re:300 million dollar helicopter (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37100388)

Not stupid at all. This is economies of scale. There's no assembly line churning out stealth helicopters with customers down the line buying them up by the thousands

If buyin' bulk gets the price down far enough, sign me up for 2 of 'em.

Re:300 million dollar helicopter (1)

couchslug (175151) | more than 2 years ago | (#37100314)

Aircraft are like computer processors. It's the design and fab equipment that costs, then economies of scale (can) happen.

The F-4 Phantom was a very complex aircraft, but thousands were built so sprinkling several hundred (yes, really) of them all over Viet Nam/Laos/Cambodia was no big deal.

What did the US expect? (4, Interesting)

couchslug (175151) | more than 2 years ago | (#37099840)

The "Fundamental" law of religion is that the more Fundmentalist one is the more literally religious one is.

Pakistan was founded as a Muslim state, and it is not a reasonable expectation for it to work against Islam in Afghanistan by supporting the heretical idea of secular government. The only reason Islamabad gave the US the time of day in the past was to obtain arms to use against its mortal enemy India which was buddies with the Soviets during the Cold War.

The Cold War is finished, and Islamabad has everything to gain from a Talibanistan protecting its flank so it can prepare for war with India.
As Uncle Sugar wises up under pressure, Islamabad must suck up to China.

India would be wise to make buddies with the US after the US-Pak relationship collapses. If it comes to war, US assets could help India take out Pak nukes which are a menace to civilization. China would have no interest in intervention since its own Muslims are a problem more easily dealt with if Pakistan becomes an ashtray.

India is already buddy buddy with US (1)

arcite (661011) | more than 2 years ago | (#37099906)

They have the nuclear technology agreements and other cooperative agreements. It's all good. China, Iran, N. Korea are the REAL future threats -- and India just so happens to be stuck in the middle.

Re:India is already buddy buddy with US (1)

h4rr4r (612664) | more than 2 years ago | (#37100008)

N Korea is only a threat to themselves really. Sure they could give someone a bloody nose, but they would be only sealing their own fate.

Re:What did the US expect? (1)

ElectricTurtle (1171201) | more than 2 years ago | (#37100170)

Pakistan is courting China not just for ongoing material support but as a real and dedicated regional ally against India. China has nearly as bad a relationship with India as Pakistan does, because just as Pakistan has Kashmir in dispute, China has Arunchal Pradesh in dispute. China is merely biding its time to make the most of a future circumstance where it could annex all the territory it has disputed with India without necessarily catalyzing a long term conflict and/or unified international military backlash. China does not, under nearly any circumstance, want to be drawn into a conflict that results in having to occupy more of India than its immediate geopolitical goals.

Re:What did the US expect? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37100246)

> Pakistan was founded as a Muslim state, and it is not a reasonable expectation for it to work against Islam in Afghanistan by supporting the heretical idea of secular government

Which makes supporting China even weirder. Unlike the West, China's government has no problem with nationalizing a territory's entire religious structure and killing anyone who disagrees. No problem at all. It's practically their written formal doctrine. And they've had plenty of crackdowns on their current muslim population.

Re:What did the US expect? (1, Interesting)

couchslug (175151) | more than 2 years ago | (#37100356)

"Unlike the West, China's government has no problem with nationalizing a territory's entire religious structure and killing anyone who disagrees"

That, as history demonstrates, is only bad depending on whose superstition is being taken out. All superstitions being worse than mere Chinese capitalism, I approve of Beijings efforts to limit religious damage in China. Seen in the Chines context, religion was among the backward traditions which hobbled China and facilitated its onetime colonial prostration before foreign powers. It is perfectly reasonable for modern people to oppose religion and to use any force they can bring to bear against all of them. China has a unique opportunity to gradually build a less-superstitious future and should take it by force if necessary.

Re:What did the US expect? (1)

CrimsonAvenger (580665) | more than 2 years ago | (#37100500)

China has a unique opportunity to gradually build a less-superstitious future and should take it by force if necessary.

Lenin? Is that you?

Seriously, it's been tried. And the cure was worse than the disease....

Re:What did the US expect? (2)

ElectricTurtle (1171201) | more than 2 years ago | (#37100564)

Your opinion is greatly misinformed. While I too am no fan of religion, to say that it was the catalyst for the colonial oppression of China is woefully ignorant both of that history and the reality of other nations in Asia. Shinto Japan was not colonized. Buddhist Thailand was not colonized. China was weak not because it was religious (which, by most measures, it really wasn't), but because it was dealing with the collapse of a dynasty which had squandered its wealth through corruption and had no military strength or popular support to resist the Europeans. Most Chinese didn't want to fight and die for their foreign oppressors (the Manchus), and so whenever the Europeans came around and said 'give us stuff or else' the government had to acquiesce, because otherwise they would lose face (and even MORE popular support) on the battlefield trying to coax an army that didn't want to fight against a more organized, more loyal, and better equipped force. That's why the Boxer Rebellion was such a boon, because it was a movement that could be manipulated by the Qing without actually *being* the Qing, so when the boxers lost, it didn't directly hurt the image of the Qing, or so they thought. Though of course when the boxers ultimately failed to eject the foreigners, the dynasty crumbled anyway when the popular support shifted to the republican movement (which collapsed into the warlord period... etc. etc.).

Re:What did the US expect? (2)

ElectricTurtle (1171201) | more than 2 years ago | (#37100386)

They have cracked down on the Uighurs, but that's because the Uighurs are in armed resistance. The Chinese do not harass Muslims across the board, the Hui population is pretty much left alone, and, unlike so many other Muslim populations, the Hui keep very much to themselves and don't make any waves. That's why the CCP doesn't harass them.

China today is not the China of the 50s and 60s. They are quite willing to let people be religious so long as in being religious they don't agitate/militate against the state (which includes being the least bit critical).

Crapistan will do Anything To Anyone. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37099848)

Their current president was actually convicted with solid evidence of a bank bombinng extortion attempt and it says a lot about the country that we'd rather have this sort of lunatic controlling the nukes than somebody else. In all probability unless you're Israeli someone in the Pakistani gov would sell information about this helicopter to anyone on Earth.

Of course some idiot will say how Bush/Obama is no different and that they control nukes... but they didn't personally strap a bomb to someones leg in a bank robbery so it figures that they had a good sense of self preservation which is important in a leader. This is also why India doesn't need birth control so much, overpopulation will be solved because it's a ticking time bomb that all hell will break loose eventually when you consider that Crapistan has hundreds of nukes controlled by lunatics with terrorists controlling their intelligence services and all the rest.

Re:Crapistan will do Anything To Anyone. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37100444)

lol why would we use one of our own patriot to do that job ? We would just use someone from another religion to do it lol

I'm all with you bro! USA USA!

That's what you get... (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37099894)

When you're "allies" with a country with 200 million pakis in it.

I say cut them loose and let the Chinese have their wicked way with them. They truly deserve each other.

Somewhat expected? (1, Flamebait)

cant_get_a_good_nick (172131) | more than 2 years ago | (#37099902)

I mean, the US did come in on a raid and killed a resident of a sovereign nation. I'm not sure how much Pakistan knew ahead of time; between information leaks in the Pakistan chain of command, and the need for plausible deniability to a populace that doesn't love the US, we will never know.

And didn't they buy the F117 Nighthawk wings that the Yugoslavs shot down? Again, this new sale is possibly disturbing, but not surprising.

Which is why (2, Interesting)

WindBourne (631190) | more than 2 years ago | (#37099920)

Pakistan's and America's relationship is faltering. The fact is, that pakistan is harboring terrorists PURPOSELY.

To be honest, part of the issues belong to us. W/neo-cons gave India access to 'civil' nuke tech, but not to pakistan. Once we opened that up, we basically told pakistan that we did not trust them. Of course, that was true. We don't. And we are helping what they consider their mortal enemy (even though it is also their 'brother').

Re:Which is why (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37100164)

The assertion that Pakistan is harboring terrorists purposely is speculation.

You have to be kidding. (1)

WindBourne (631190) | more than 2 years ago | (#37100368)

There is nothing speculative about it. Lets assume for a second that NOBODY knew about OBL (yeah, right). It is well known that they are in FATA, but it was LET that attacked in mumbai with help of the paki military. All sorts of proof of the above. In addition, we CONSTANTLY kill terrorists all over pakistan via bombs. At this point, I think that we should drop a few MOABs on various places of FATA. We know a number of the caves. Drop these in, and simply take them out. Issue solved.

Re:Which is why (1)

Oxford_Comma_Lover (1679530) | more than 2 years ago | (#37100308)

We will never really trust Pakistan--not until the women of Pakistan are treated as equals, the military hasn't taken over the government in recent history, and a Jew can walk around the place without facing discrimination. The biggest thing it has going for it is a fairly reputable judiciary and an active bar that cares about things like military takeovers of the government. In time, that may lead to more open-mindedness and reform. But it may take another century.

Re:Which is why (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37100588)

And I'll hold my breath for proper democracy in "The Land of The Free".

Re:Which is why (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37100360)

India tested its first nuclear weapon in the 70s. What the fuck does that have to do with GWB or "neo-cons"?

Honestly this right/left-wing nonsense has got to stop or there will be a fucking civil war.

Consequences (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37099964)

That's what one gets from threats of bombing a country into stone age..

This can only mean one thing... (5, Funny)

SoTerrified (660807) | more than 2 years ago | (#37099968)

Yay! Cheap knock-off stealth choppers for everyone!!

that fail part at high speed or stop lightning str (1)

Joe_Dragon (2206452) | more than 2 years ago | (#37100010)

that fail part at high speed or stop working after lightning strikes .

Re:that fail part at high speed or stop lightning (3, Insightful)

Riceballsan (816702) | more than 2 years ago | (#37100120)

Well every machine has some point at which it will fail. If ours were indestructible/undetectable, it wouldn't be laying in the middle of Pakistan

Re:This can only mean one thing... (1)

couchslug (175151) | more than 2 years ago | (#37100372)

Stealth is only temporary, so todays "stealth" is tomorrows easy target.

Re:This can only mean one thing... (1)

QuasiSteve (2042606) | more than 2 years ago | (#37100598)

Yay! Cheap knock-off stealth choppers for everyone!!

Actually, not at all surprisingly, Chinese model kit maker Dragon released their vision(1) of the 'stealth helicopter' not too long after the pictures surfaced and others made mock-up images(2);
1) http://www.scale-rotors.com/news-reviews/dragon/stealth-black-hawk-operation-geronimo-4628 [scale-rotors.com]
2) http://cencio4.wordpress.com/category/stealth-black-hawk/ [wordpress.com]

Though I'm not sure a 1:144 scale model counts as a knock-off per se :)

Suprising (0)

jgdobak (119142) | more than 2 years ago | (#37100006)

If we don't want our allies showing our technology to other nations, we probably shouldn't be using it in unsanctioned murder missions within their borders.

Just saying.

Re:Suprising (1)

jedidiah (1196) | more than 2 years ago | (#37100138)

We already had an agreement in place with them that covered the mission in question.

Nice try though. Please play again.

Re:Suprising (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37100220)

If you don't want your borders violated, you probably shouldn't be having known terrorists living in an army town where your trustworthiness as an ally gets called into question.

Re:Suprising (1)

KiloByte (825081) | more than 2 years ago | (#37100310)

Except that the whole war was about folks harboring uncle Osama and refusing to hand him over. Which makes any claim for Pakistan to be "allies" pretty dubious.

Caveats (5, Insightful)

jdkramar (803337) | more than 2 years ago | (#37100088)

TFA is full of caveats. How is something that is riddled with caveats (and therefore not facts) considered news?
  • "Pakistan’s intelligence service probably allowed Chinese military engineers"
  • "American spy agencies have concluded that it is likely that Chinese engineers"

Re:Caveats (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37100184)

Yep, intelligence gathering isn't quite as concrete as physics.

China's more effective approach (2)

Device666 (901563) | more than 2 years ago | (#37100210)

It's China's soft diplomacy backed by hard currency (artificially weakened) versus US hard diplomacy by weak currency (artificially pimped and by count on the advantage of world reserve currency and unrivaled military and technological advance). But it's working for China.

China's huge dollar position is both it's strength as it's weakness, as value deteriorates. China is trying to put their money in foreign investment and soft diplomacy to gain influence in Africa, weak economies of some European countries (for example Greece) and now also Pakistan, openly, without any worries knowing it is crossing US interest. Outsourcing productivity is followed by knowledge, science and technology, in contrast with popular belief that such follow up doesn't occur. It's starts with shameless copying is the prerequisite of understanding and improvement, this is the present case for China much as it was for Japan in the past. With the only difference that it is maybe even more easy for Chinese companies, as the state is shareholder. The Chinese does business with everyone, not asking too many questions or human right issues. For those who not know, China has been most of her existence been the world power state. They have a great history in diplomatic cases.

Re:China's more effective approach (2)

poity (465672) | more than 2 years ago | (#37100418)

That doesn't seem like the correct assessment, your post has too many stereotypes trying to qualify themselves as facts, though I do agree somewhat with the ending that China historically tends to tread lightly outside of her backyard (inside is another story). US and China both rely heavily on soft diplomacy, so the soft/hard dichotomy has no bearing here. It seems the outcome we see here is more due to the fact that Pakistan shares more common goals with China than with the US -- primarily among them, the future containment of India, and a mutual rejection of the regional encroachment of US bases and NATO influence.

Re:China's more effective approach (1)

couchslug (175151) | more than 2 years ago | (#37100464)

Chinese diplomacy in Africa, OTOH, is advantageous to consumers worldwide.
Western governments must stay away for obvious ("Blackhawk Down") reasons, so I argue we are better off letting other countries play in that particular sandbox.

Let the Chinese have at it. They are tough and smart enough to cut deals to extract resources the civilized world must have from Africa and aren't hobbled by trying to apply alien ethical constructs to tribal groups who don't care for the preaching of foreigners.

The US doesn't have to meddle everywhere. Let someone ELSE piss off the world for a change!

CHINA IS GONNA PWN US ALL (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37100272)

RUN FOR THE HILLS!

Serves them right. (1)

Foxhoundz (2015516) | more than 2 years ago | (#37100380)

What did you expect to happen when you leave top-secret military hardware after forcing yourself into a sovereign nation?

Just one more betrayal by Pakistan. (1)

humblepie (650771) | more than 2 years ago | (#37100570)

USA has made a deal with the devil, and is betrayed one more time. Leave Pakistan to their own devices, and get out of the arena. Bin Laden is no longer an excuse for American occupation. The generals led in Viet Nam, and Afghanistan, with the same results. History has repeated itself - enough.
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