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Rage and the Tech Behind id Tech 5

Soulskill posted more than 2 years ago | from the next-gen-rocket-launchers dept.

First Person Shooters (Games) 172

MojoKid writes "id Software's long-awaited FPS, Rage, is set to ship in October. When it launches, Rage will be the first game to feature id's newest graphics engine, dubbed id Tech 5. id Tech 5 has evolved considerably since the company started talking about it four years ago, however. While it contains a number of additional features, MegaTexturing remains one of the game's most visible advances. MegaTexturing uses a single large texture to map the terrain of an entire area. Data from that texture is streamed in depending on where the player is standing and what's visible. Effects that would normally be blended in traditional tiled texturing can be baked into the megatexture and streamed off disc when needed. The advantage of megatexturing is that it allows artists to create unique environments rather than resorting to a variety of tricks to hide repetitive texture tiles." id's Tim Willits spoke with Eurogamer about Rage's development, explaining how their goal of fast-paced action dictated certain design decisions. Rage will make use of Steamworks, but won't require a persistent connection for offline play. However, small parts of optional single-player content will only be available to players who buy the game new. Willits said, "Most people never find them. But as soon as you do, you're like, oh. And then you start to look for it. That's our first-time buyer incentive."

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iPad (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37122026)

Is this game for iPad?

Re:iPad (1, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37122096)

No. This requires a real computer not some "OOH SHINY!!!" piece of shit shat out by sweatshop workers and sold at 500% markup by our fine friends in Cupertino.

Re:iPad (1, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37122128)

Wrong. There is an iOS version. See the Wikipedia article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rage_(video_game) [wikipedia.org]

Re:iPad (3, Informative)

Beelzebud (1361137) | more than 2 years ago | (#37122154)

You do realize that they're not the same game at all, and that the phone version was made just for phones, right?

Re:iPad (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37122208)

You do realize that I said "version" and not "direct identical port" and that the AC is still wrong when he flat-out said "No" and that a "real computer" is required, because, in one form or another, Rage is available for iOS, right?

Re:iPad (1)

Beelzebud (1361137) | more than 2 years ago | (#37122250)

No, Rage HD is available for IOS, and it's not the same game at all. Rage isn't going to be a gallery shooter like the phone game was.

Re:iPad (1)

PC and Sony Fanboy (1248258) | more than 2 years ago | (#37122990)

You do realize that I said "version" and not "direct identical port" and that the AC is still wrong when he flat-out said "No" and that a "real computer" is required, because, in one form or another, Rage is available for iOS, right?

In the same way that the "full web browsing experience" is available on your iphone AND your computer... but only if your computer does NOT have flash installed.

wait, am I arguing with an AC? *doh!*

Re:iPad (0, Troll)

bonch (38532) | more than 2 years ago | (#37122178)

There's already an iOS version, you creepy troll who will die alone.

Re:iPad (-1, Offtopic)

webmistressrachel (903577) | more than 2 years ago | (#37122398)

Oh, the irony of the mods - you're currently at 0, Troll. Your UID alone should have told the mods you're a bit more mature than the average troll, but hey, this is /.!

Re:iPad (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37122180)

You dumb shit geek filth will never get it, will you? Oh, BTW, your god John Carmack has discussed porting the Rage engine to the iPad, and he really likes the device. Does that make your laughably infinitesimal speck of a blinkered world view explode? Now do the world a favor and die.

Re:iPad (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37122238)

Hey cumstain, I don't give a shit about how you and John Carmack wish they could be Steve Jobs' personal blowjob giver. You're still buying cheap, shiny junk made from overworked sweatshop workers who end up committing suicide all so you can buy something at 500% markup so your hipster friends think you're cool and "geeky". Learn to use a real operating system like Linux and then come back to me about how awesome you are you fucking useless queef.

Re:iPad (1)

allanw (842185) | more than 2 years ago | (#37122358)

You do realize that all computer companies outsource their manufacturing work to the likes of Foxconn, not just Apple right?

On the suicide note from your other troll post: the suicide rate at the Foxconn factories are less than the suicide rate at US universities.

Re:iPad (1)

PC and Sony Fanboy (1248258) | more than 2 years ago | (#37123032)

On the suicide note from your other troll post: the suicide rate at the Foxconn factories are less than the suicide rate at US universities.

Yeah, no nets to catch jumpers at US institutions. Or maybe it's because students at US institutions realize that there is no hope for them, since they weren't born wealthy, and the chinese aren't quite so dis-illusioned with their chances.

... or maybe paying someone for the privilege of wasting your time is more depressing than getting paid for it? No matter what, you're comparing apples to oranges... but nice try. You know there's a journal article being reported on that talks about fanbois taking criticism personally when people attack their company of choice?

Re:iPad (1)

synthesizerpatel (1210598) | more than 2 years ago | (#37122702)

Well, we have confirmation that Steve Balmer reads slashdot at least.

Re:iPad (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37122106)

iPuked when you said that.

Long term Id fan here... (4, Interesting)

mfh (56) | more than 2 years ago | (#37122090)

I'm a long term Id fan here. Let me start by saying the latest id-Tech engine looks awesome, but the buck stops there. The story and the characters look pretty cardboard, when they should be amazing if we're applying the technology uniformly over every possible realm of creativity.

There's a kind of goofy appearance to things, and you can see the split-second jitter when scripted sequences switch between one sequence and the next.

Also this looks too campy. It seems like Id is really missing some of the grit that it had back when it was released Quake. They had Nine Inch Nails do the soundtrack and a lot of the sounds were created by Trent Reznor. All that stuff went away when John Romero left, or at least most of it just fell by the wayside when John Romero forgot he was a cool kid and started making cellphone games instead of gritty grindhouse type stuff.

This appears to be nothing more than an engine release that is dressed up a bit in order to sell the technology.

Look at Battlefield 3; that is the kind of game I expect from Id Software, but we get something kinda goofy.

I'd like to see what Valve would do with this engine if they licensed it -- but I'm not convinced Valve needs it.

Re:Long term Id fan here... (2)

Pino Grigio (2232472) | more than 2 years ago | (#37122132)

Has there ever been an ID game that wasn't kind-of "goofy"? Ok, their early stuff like Doom and Quake were genuinely great fun to play, but ID don't do narrative, story-telling or anything like that and never have. Doom 3 was the last ID game I played. As I've got older, I've started needing some interest other than flashy graphics to attract me to play.

Anyway as a software developer who works in graphics, I'll be interested to see the meta-texture demo.

Re:Long term Id fan here... (1)

mfh (56) | more than 2 years ago | (#37122186)

Quake was cool. It was simple.

It had a silent story and that made it better in many ways, more enthralling as a result.

Anyway as a software developer who works in graphics, I'll be interested to see the meta-texture demo.

As a gamer, I'd like to see a Quake TC come out of this game.

Re:Long term Id fan here... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37122286)

Meh... "silent story", to me, frequently means "blow lots of shit up first; we were too bored to make a story, so our fans will do that work for us".

Not always, but frequently. And given id's history of "storytelling" in games, I'm not holding up particularly high hopes that this'll be anything more than "blow lots of shit up MORE PRETTY-LIKE THAN LAST TIME!!!!1!1!!". Once companies with competent writers get hold of the engine, maybe. But id? Not a chance in whatever version of hell you'll be blowing the shit out of this time around.

Re:Long term Id fan here... (1)

mfh (56) | more than 2 years ago | (#37122330)

Meh... "silent story", to me, frequently means "blow lots of shit up first; we were too bored to make a story, so our fans will do that work for us". Not always, but frequently.

I tend to disagree. Some of the best games have no talking at all in them. Video game designers aren't that good at Hollywood scripts. If you look carefully at Rockstar Games... these guys KNOW how to do it. They know how to make a game feel like you're right there and you can get right into the story. The technology is there also, but it's riding back-seat where it belongs.

The story and the entertainment is what's worth paying for, not technology. I mean give me another game that looks the same as all the others and I'll play it for weeks and weeks... years even if it has some hook for me. Some reason to play.

Here is what I'm looking forward to and I hope it doesn't suck:

http://survivorzero.com/ [survivorzero.com]

Re:Long term Id fan here... (2)

0123456 (636235) | more than 2 years ago | (#37122578)

If you look carefully at Rockstar Games... these guys KNOW how to do it. They know how to make a game feel like you're right there and you can get right into the story.

I totally disagree. In the GTA games I find the 'story' is mostly just an annoying means of preventing me from doing what I want to do.

"Go to the other side of the map to start the mission. Watch a cutscene. Go back to the side you started on to get a car. Go back to the other side again to pick up a passenger. Get chased by a dozen bad guys as you drive back to the side of the map you started on. Oh dear, you got there five seconds too late. Go back and start again. But first, your cousin wants to play darts."

That's what I see as the 'story' in a typical GTA game. I'd much rather they just forgot the 'story' and let me play the actual game.

Re:Long term Id fan here... (1)

mfh (56) | more than 2 years ago | (#37123348)

I heard LA Noire was awesome. The youtube vids look pretty sweet.

I'm gonna buy it in the fall when it ships for PC.

Re:Long term Id fan here... (1)

PC and Sony Fanboy (1248258) | more than 2 years ago | (#37123058)

Meh... "silent story", to me, frequently means "blow lots of shit up first; we were too bored to make a story, so our fans will do that work for us". Not always, but frequently.

I tend to disagree. Some of the best games have no talking at all in them. Video game designers aren't that good at Hollywood scripts.

Dragon age : Origins + NO Hero talking = Awesome.
Dragon Age 2 + Hero who talks = Not as good as the original.
SurvivorZero + Shameless plug for a game that only 4 people will play (and 3 of which are the creators) = laaaame.

Re:Long term Id fan here... (1)

mfh (56) | more than 2 years ago | (#37123318)

SurvivorZero + Shameless plug for a game that only 4 people will play (and 3 of which are the creators) = laaaame.

I'm not developing this game and I have no affiliation with the team. You don't want to play a game where you are surrounded by zombies and you have to hack your way through it? It's gonna be fun! And I think it's gonna be free to download, but I could be mistaken.

Re:Long term Id fan here... (2, Informative)

h4rr4r (612664) | more than 2 years ago | (#37122152)

This is a Tech Demo for the engine. Just like DOOM3 was. Id does not really make amazing games. They make amazing engines and decent games as tech demos for the engines.

Re:Long term Id fan here... (1)

VGPowerlord (621254) | more than 2 years ago | (#37122214)

This is a Tech Demo for the engine. Just like DOOM3 was. Id does not really make amazing games. They make amazing engines and decent games as tech demos for the engines.

Sadly, that could cause them problems.

Likely, even now, the most widely used game engine developed by someone other than the developers of the game in question is the Unreal Tournament 3 engine from 2007.

Re:Long term Id fan here... (1)

h4rr4r (612664) | more than 2 years ago | (#37122280)

Might not be the most widely used, but Id engines see a good bit of use. Prey and Prey 2 are both DOOM3/QUAKE4(IdTech4) engine based

Re:Long term Id fan here... (1)

Yuioup (452151) | more than 2 years ago | (#37123434)

Ok, but honestly, how many people have played Prey or are still playing it?

Re:Long term Id fan here... (2)

Pino Grigio (2232472) | more than 2 years ago | (#37123474)

I played it. Quite enjoyed it actually (was a surprise).

Re:Long term Id fan here... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37122308)

This is not a tech demo for the engine. It is a game they have spent six years working on.

And Bethesda has made it clear they will not be licensing this engine to third parties.

Re:Long term Id fan here... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37122410)

If Bethesda uses the engine for an Elder Scrolls game instead of the shittastic engine they've been using since Morrowind, I'll consider it all worth it.

Re:Long term Id fan here... (1)

pavon (30274) | more than 2 years ago | (#37122360)

The problem is that they refuse to accept that fact [gamasutra.com] . They deliberately decided not to license out their idTech 5 engine. Then they spent more than four years creating content for their new engine. But by all accounts this content isn't any good, and the engine that looked amazing when it was first demoed, is now not so impressive. They really need to learn how to leverage their strengths or they won't survive another release.

Re:Long term Id fan here... (1)

Surt (22457) | more than 2 years ago | (#37122512)

They will survive as long as they want, they have plenty of cash to survive several flops in a row.

Re:Long term Id fan here... (1)

xhrit (915936) | more than 2 years ago | (#37123230)

>They really need to learn how to leverage their strengths or they won't survive another release.

I am pretty sure they already sailed past that point a long time ago. The last few projects such as quake live have been failures and ID has ceased to an independent entity. I am fully expecting Carmack to retire or be laid off soon, then all that will be left of ID a tech engine that is "a completely unacceptable engine to do Skyrim in", and some old used up IP that no one really cares about anymore.

Re:Long term Id fan here... (2)

mobby_6kl (668092) | more than 2 years ago | (#37122412)

>This is a Tech Demo for the engine.

Oh, then it makes perfect sense that they aren't going to be licensing the engine [rockpapershotgun.com] to anyone!

Re:Long term Id fan here... (1)

h4rr4r (612664) | more than 2 years ago | (#37122436)

Bethesda will be using it. They make some games like Elder Scrolls and a little thing called Fallout.

Re:Long term Id fan here... (3, Insightful)

pavon (30274) | more than 2 years ago | (#37122486)

Except John has already said the engine is not suitable for those sorts of games:

He added that id Tech 5 is "not magic," and the engine is good for certain kinds of games such as Rage, but not as much for games such as Grand Theft Auto that render cities with lots of surface area.

"The megatexture direction [in id Tech 5] has some big wins, but it's also fairly restrictive on certain types of games," he said. "It would be a completely unacceptable engine to do [Bethesda's Elder Scrolls V:] Skyrim in, where you've got the whole world, walking across these huge areas."

Re:Long term Id fan here... (1)

Desler (1608317) | more than 2 years ago | (#37122670)

Bethesda will be using it. They make some games like Elder Scrolls and a little thing called Fallout.

Okay, and how does that contradict anything? Bethesda isn't a 3rd party company and isn't licensing the engine. Bethesda and id are both studios under the same parent company.

Re:Long term Id fan here... (1)

Beelzebud (1361137) | more than 2 years ago | (#37122218)

Well to be fair Reznor started out working on the sounds for Doom3 (which can be heard in the "leaked" E3 Doom3 alpha). He dropped out of the project because it was just taking too long.

Re:Long term Id fan here... (2)

mfh (56) | more than 2 years ago | (#37122294)

Well to be fair Reznor started out working on the sounds for Doom3 (which can be heard in the "leaked" E3 Doom3 alpha). He dropped out of the project because it was just taking too long.

I have it on good authority he dropped out because he wasn't that much into it. Doom 3 was pretty bad, tbh.

Doom 1 & 2: technologically amazing, creative, dark and scary... total game changers.
Quake: Flipped the industry in its ear. Half Life 2, created much later, was the only game that could replace Quake, and it was built originally around Id's Quake engine.
Quake 2: colored lighting, easier implementations of sounds and better models. Kinda cool story but sort of lame too. Rubbery physics. Better networking.
Quake 3: Popcorn baby. Popcorn game. Slick looking but zero nutrition. Awesome networking.
Doom 3: Scary at times, but slow as fuck and boring in parts. Terrible acting.
Quake 4: lol just bad. Looked good but pretty boring.

See the downward trend here? Yeah that started when Romero left and stopped caring about making good games.

Also iD Tech 4 blows (4, Informative)

Sycraft-fu (314770) | more than 2 years ago | (#37122460)

One of the big things with previous iD games is their engines were amazing. They were some of the best things you'd ever seen. Good looking, ran well, etc, etc.

Then we get Doom 3. While the realtime lighting was nifty, after you played a bit it got annoying because everything was overly dark since there was no radiosity or other global illumination. It was also extremely resource intensive, you had to have a really hot computer to run it. Compared to Unreal Engine 2.5, it really wasn't that great. UE 2.5 looked nicer over all, despite not being as "advanced" and scaled much better.

Of course they've then been stuck on that for a long time. UE3 came out and was a far better engine, and we are now on UE3.5, and still nothing new from iD yet. iD Tech 4 has not aged gracefully at all. Brink is a wonderful example. Never mind the gameplay problems, it just doesn't look very good and doesn't run well given how it looks because of the engine.

You can see it in terms of licenses too. iD Tech 4 has a total of 6 games out, almost all of them either iD themselves, or Raven (who has always liked to make games using iD's stuff). UE3 has near 200, and it was released later.

We'll see how iD Tech 5 does.

Re:Long term Id fan here... (1)

Yuioup (452151) | more than 2 years ago | (#37123478)

Quake3 is hands down the best arena shooter out there and I don't think anything will replace it ever.

Rage Looked Like Crap At E3 (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37122288)

The game itself is bargin bin material.

But the graphics were utterly mediocre when I saw it at E3. Which was shocking given how some people are desperately trying to hype the game's graphics.

There is no way in hell any other game developer would license the Rage engine.

Re:Rage Looked Like Crap At E3 (1)

mfh (56) | more than 2 years ago | (#37122382)

There is no way in hell any other game developer would license the Rage engine.

Why would they? There are a bunch of other engines around that do the job at way cheaper rates. I don't think one developer has licensed Idtech5 as of right now, although I could be mistaken.

Re:Rage Looked Like Crap At E3 (2)

Desler (1608317) | more than 2 years ago | (#37122690)

There is no way in hell any other game developer would license the Rage engine.

They wouldn't be able to anyway. It's already been stated that id Tech 5 will not be licensed to 3rd parties.

Re: More washed up than a dead man on the beach. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37123064)

Honestly my take on it is that they just bought id for patent coverage and we'ree going to see them f-us in the A with patent litigation in the near future. Id has been washed up for a while, what with Carmack more interested in rockets than graphics engines, and the sellout to ZeniMax was just the last nail in the coffin. Much like the music industry the indie movement which started it got sucked up by the same bunch of publishing douchebags who should never has been allowed near the money. But that is the way of life.

Re:Long term Id fan here... (1)

bananaquackmoo (1204116) | more than 2 years ago | (#37122618)

Look at Battlefield 3? Really? Yes its pretty, but its not a game I want to play. Rage is definitely something I will play. To each their own...

Re:Long term Id fan here... (1)

antdude (79039) | more than 2 years ago | (#37123558)

Aren't most of their games like that? They do great engines. Other companies license their engines to make better games!

Will it run in linux? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37122104)

A la quakewars?

Re:Will it run in linux? (0)

Beelzebud (1361137) | more than 2 years ago | (#37122160)

Unfortunately they seem to be backing off from Linux support. One of their coders said he'd like to do a port, but it would have to be on his own time... Hopefully we'll see it happen, and it won't turn out like the promised UT3 Linux version that Epic abandoned.

Re:Will it run in linux? (2)

X0563511 (793323) | more than 2 years ago | (#37122192)

Hasn't it been this way for a long time? I thought all of the pre-GPL ports were done like that.

Re:Will it run in linux? (2)

Beelzebud (1361137) | more than 2 years ago | (#37122314)

No, their past games have shipped with Linux binaries, or had binaries available on the internet at release time. Even Quake 4 had a Linux client on release. They've never pushed if off like this. What you might be thinking of is the GPL source code releases.

Megatexture is asinine. (0, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37122144)

MegaTexture is utterly asinine. Rather than doing anything to ensure quality, it simply shifts all responsibility to the artists. It is a make-work project for artists and serves mainly to raise the cost of making a game.

Re:Megatexture is asinine. (3, Insightful)

X0563511 (793323) | more than 2 years ago | (#37122224)

Guess what? The vast majority of making something look good lies in the artists' realm.

You can put as many polygons onto the screen as you wish, but if you don't have someone competent painting them with the appropriate colors and putting them in the right place it's going to look bad.

What An Idiot (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37122610)

Wow, some karma whoring moron spewing crap about art over lots of polys.

What a fucking joke.

Thank you for making the Internet suck just a tiny bit more.

What A Troll (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37123040)

Wow, some dumbass moron spewing crap about polys over talented art.

What a fucking shame!

Thank you for making the Internet suck just a whole lot more.

Re:Megatexture is asinine. (2, Insightful)

bonch (38532) | more than 2 years ago | (#37122242)

It's a streaming system that lets artists paint unique textures rather than today's tiled patterns. That's a bad thing how? What exactly is it shifting responsibility for? Engines don't create the texture assets.

The key to good trolling is to sound just rational enough that a large swath of people won't dismiss you outright. Try again, anonymous coward.

Re:Megatexture is asinine. (1)

X0563511 (793323) | more than 2 years ago | (#37123118)

Woo! Mods on crack!

Re:Megatexture is asinine. (1)

Splitterside (1983872) | more than 2 years ago | (#37122258)

I will give you the benefit that you probably have not made a game before, so you probably dont understand what MegaTextures really mean to an artist. Your statement is incorrect and too bad comments like these go out everywhere before actually doing some research into the topic. It may be slightly more work for an artist to pull off, but it also gives the artist more freedom to shape the game world that many of us will be spending hours in. Thank you Id Tech 5!

But does it look like crap? (1)

RobinEggs (1453925) | more than 2 years ago | (#37122230)

All I really know about id Tech 5 is that many posters here on slashdot claim to have seen previews and tech demos already, and they say it absolutely sucks.

I recall people saying it pales in comparison to any modern game engine, and in fact doesn't even hold up against Source, which is now 7 years old. Specifics included complaints about the polygon count being so low that you could see visible spikes on the heads, shoulders, etc. of characters and such.

Maybe that was just demos; maybe id is the only company in the world to demo the relevant rendering advances without obsessing over technically trivial things like polygon count in non-production projects. Nevertheless, usually the demos and gameplay movies look way *better* than production product, so this seems like a serious concern.

In fact, if these complainers are truthful and accurate, id Tech 5 is truly nothing more than a very early April Fool's joke.

Anti-John Carmack Heretic - Burn Him! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37122336)

What the fuck are you babbling about?

This is John Carmack!

John Carmack could code an graphics engine that blows away everything else ever made locked room with 10 ravenous Lions with both hand tied behind his back!

Rage uses megatextures! MEGATEXTURES!

Get a fucking clue and stop trolling THE MASTER and his AMAZING WORK!!!

Look for yourself (1)

phorm (591458) | more than 2 years ago | (#37122386)

There's a video on steam that you can view. It looked good enough to me, but how it actually pans out on your home system may be subject to change/hardware.

Re:But does it look like crap? (0)

h4rr4r (612664) | more than 2 years ago | (#37122390)

Considering IdTech 4 the previous engine beats Source, I am going to call Troll on you.

Re:But does it look like crap? (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37122738)

You and every other idiot on slashdot really need to revisit the definitions of "troll" and "flamebait". Those designations are reserved for people who say things *excslusively* to start arguments and piss people off, not for merely controversial, unsubstantiated, or contrary statements.

Not even half the things called troll on slashdot are anywhere near it. I have way too much personal experience with this.

Re:But does it look like crap? (1)

h4rr4r (612664) | more than 2 years ago | (#37123066)

My meaning was that his statements only purpose was to start an argument.

Re:But does it look like crap? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37122400)

Specifics included complaints about the polygon count being so low that you could see visible spikes on the heads, shoulders, etc. of characters and such.

Don't know where that came from, but this screenshot [actiontrip.com] looks good to me.

Re:But does it look like crap? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37122912)

Go back 2 screens: jagged skull, painted-on bullets and clothes... Ouch ! This mix of hi-res and low-res ain't pretty!

Re:But does it look like crap? (3, Informative)

VGPowerlord (621254) | more than 2 years ago | (#37122682)

I recall people saying it pales in comparison to any modern game engine, and in fact doesn't even hold up against Source, which is now 7 years old.

Source is iteratively updated. There have been at least 8 major versions of Source, although I'm not going to list the changes to each one.

  • Original. Launched with HL2. No longer in use by any Valve games. Client is Windows only.
  • Episode 1. Launched with HL2: Episode 1. Currently used by Half-Life: Source and Half-Life: Source Deathmatch. Client is Windows only. Server is Windows and Linux.
  • Orange Box. Launched with HL2: Episode 2. Currently used by Half-Life 2, Half-Life 2: Episode 1, Half-Life 2: Episode 2, and Portal. Client is Windows and Mac.
  • Orange Box 2009. A fork of Orange Box for multiplayer games. Currently used by Half-Life 2: Deathmatch, Day of Defeat: Source, Counter-Strike: Source, and Team Fortress 2. Client is Windows and Mac. Server is Windows, Mac, and Linux.
  • Left 4 Dead. Currently used by Left 4 Dead. Client is Windows and Mac. Server is Windows, Mac, and Linux.
  • Left 4 Dead 2. Currently used by Left 4 Dead 2. Client is Windows and Mac. Server is Windows, Mac, and Linux.
  • Alien Swam. Currently used by Alien Swarm. Client is Windows. Server is Windows.
  • Portal 2. Currently used by Portal 2. Client is Windows and Mac. No standalone server.

Re:But does it look like crap? (1)

twokay (979515) | more than 2 years ago | (#37123674)

Well if its not as good as Source then i guess i will spend more time looking at a loading screen than playing the game. Portal 2 worked out about 50/50 from what i remember... ^^

Evolved? only if ID was a pokemon... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37122246)

More graphics, gimmicks and no damn innovation. And I just had a thought. There are actually TWO video game markets: Those who thought Doom/whatever age appropriate FPS was the only game they could ever love when it first came out, and those that played other things after getting bored.
There's just a lot more "Shooter" fans out there.

No custom maps (4, Interesting)

PhrostyMcByte (589271) | more than 2 years ago | (#37122264)

The unfortunate consequence of megatexturing is that nobody will be able to make custom maps for this. Carmack talked about needing an expensive server with 192GiB of RAM to compile the maps.

The technology is really impressive, but I can't imagine it being worth this. id has always been very friendly to the map/mod community—they're the last company I'd have expected this from.

Re:No custom maps (1)

backslashdot (95548) | more than 2 years ago | (#37122324)

you have a citation for this? Also what about using something like Amazon Ec2 to compile the maps?

Re:No custom maps (2)

PhrostyMcByte (589271) | more than 2 years ago | (#37122354)

It's in his QuakeCon keynote [youtube.com] . I don't remember at what point, though.

Re:No custom maps (5, Informative)

UnknownSoldier (67820) | more than 2 years ago | (#37122790)

He said it three times... I just listened to this last week, so it was still fresh, and relatively easy to find. :-) Here is a partial transcript. In-Joy!

@42:36 One of the things that we were doing in our production side of things for cranking out our build games to rebuild all the games.
@42:44 when we build our virtual textures for the dynamic stuff, it is this process that
@42: 49 at one point it just took hours. I rewrote it to be such a way that it used huge amounts of memory mapped files and it got down much much faster
@42:59 but it really started swapping on any system that we had.
@43:02 So we said "Well let's find out what the actual limitations here are."
@43:07 So we took one of our servers and we put 192 gigabytes of ram in it
@43:12 And it, so [it] was like $5000. We used to spend more then $5000 on a desktop PC. You know we had $10,000 workstations back in the day.
@43:22 But 192 _gigabytes_ of ram. And, I think back, OK 128 _bytes_ of RAM in the Atari 2600; 192 _gigabytes_ of RAM being used to build this. You know, greater then a factor of a billion. Now that is stretching from before my time to a server grade system here. That is 9 order of magnitude.

Re:No custom maps (1)

amicusNYCL (1538833) | more than 2 years ago | (#37122334)

Isn't that jumping the gun just a little bit? Have you seen any statements from id that custom maps will be impossible? Don't you think they would put some sort of effort into making their games easy to make content for?

Re:No custom maps (3, Informative)

Jonner (189691) | more than 2 years ago | (#37122760)

Isn't that jumping the gun just a little bit? Have you seen any statements from id that custom maps will be impossible? Don't you think they would put some sort of effort into making their games easy to make content for?

This interview with Carmack [pcper.com] :

For modders, Carmack stated that they were going to release the 64-bit version of tools though there is going to be a limit to what people can do with it because there is a lot of infrastructure involved with the mega-textured worlds. Expect to build new gaming characteristics and multiplayer modes, but not much more than that for now. Keeping in mind there is over a 1TB of source material to build RAGE, they can’t possibly put that all up for download.

Re:No custom maps (1)

xhrit (915936) | more than 2 years ago | (#37123376)

Rage is not the first game with megatexturing. Enemy Territory: Quake Wars uses an enhanced version of ID Tech4 with megatexture support. There are custom maps but the only options are for the ground to look like shit, or to use one of the megatextures that come with the default maps. As a result the modding community for ET:QW is almost non-existent.

Re:No custom maps (1)

xhrit (915936) | more than 2 years ago | (#37123516)

I hate to double post, but I would like to point out that the megatextures in et:qw are around 500 megs each compressed. That is just the textures, not including any geometry. At that size it is quite prohibitive for the community to store and transfer mods... wolf:et maps were 10 to 20 megs in size and could be downloaded while you waited in que for the match to begin.

Re:No custom maps (1)

omnichad (1198475) | more than 2 years ago | (#37122446)

It takes longer, but for a few years now, we've had the ability to page memory to disk.

Re:No custom maps (1)

Mia'cova (691309) | more than 2 years ago | (#37122900)

Perfect excuse for an SSD.

Re:No custom maps (2)

FrozenFOXX (1048276) | more than 2 years ago | (#37122458)

The unfortunate consequence of megatexturing is that nobody will be able to make custom maps for this. Carmack talked about needing an expensive server with 192GiB of RAM to compile the maps.

The technology is really impressive, but I can't imagine it being worth this. id has always been very friendly to the map/mod community—they're the last company I'd have expected this from.

A couple of years ago at QuakeCon John Carmack actually talked a bit about this and it's not at all surprising. He talked about how the problem for the mapping/modding community is that the games are so massively complex now it's nearly impossible to make anything of note without a software development team of your own. And he's right. Go back to the days of Doom, Duke Nukem 3D, and Quake and you've got HUGE volumes of mods, maps, and so forth. You could actually bang out a fairly interesting little map for Doom in an afternoon, then tweak it the following day.

Now fast forward to something like Far Cry or Doom 3. Modding these with anything even HALFWAY to the degree of those older games is nearly impossible. Replacing models with your own requires huge expenditures of time, talent, and skills that most people flat-out don't have (when's the last time you built a 3D rendered model on par with a character from Gears of War?). Instead, John saw that cell phones and other smaller games were where all the creativity was going. After all, pulling down the Android Dev kit is free, banging out a little game or modding someone else's isn't too terribly difficult by comparison and you've got a lot of examples to go off of.

Where John is seeing the "modding/mapping" community going is starting small. You start with smaller modifications, indie games, and other such things. When these are popular enough you attract more people and can start working on larger projects. Eventually you roll this up into a larger group that IS capable of modding the complicated titles in a tractable period of time (or just start your own studio, like with Splash Damage).


But hey, that's just what the man said. I think he's right and I think he knows a lot more about the topic than I do, but it's just his opinion. I guess they could be willingly spurning communities en masse as well. Which reminds me, id Tech 4 is due to be released open source soon...

He's fully of shit (2)

Sycraft-fu (314770) | more than 2 years ago | (#37122656)

Modding is still extremely popular, the problem is just that many game engines have poor, if any, tools for modding them. The ones that do have good tools, they get mods a plenty. Have a look at the Nexus sites, Elder Scrolls Nexus, Dragon Age Nexus, and so on to see the massive amount of mods out there.

Likewise, look at Epic. They ran the "Make something Unreal," contest. Tons of mods came out of that, some fairly amazing done by small teams, but also plenty of good maps often done by a single guy. That is using Unreal Engine 3, which is newer and more advanced than Doom 3/iD Tech 4, but just has some top notch tools including an extremely powerful map editor.

Seems to me like maybe just the road he has chosen to take his engine down is not friendly to modders. Not everyone has taken that same road. Yes, it does mean more work on the developer's part. I mean Epic's map editor is just legendary. That thing is as advanced as many 3D renderers. I'm sure it took a lot of work to polish like that, never mind all the tutorials they made. However, against that there is the fact that they've licensed like 200 copies of Unreal Engine 3. Part of that is the high grade tools. If you are a company looking at making a game, maybe you decide to license an engine to save on development effort. Well makes sense to license one with really good tools, since that saves more time.

Re:No custom maps (1)

jandrese (485) | more than 2 years ago | (#37122514)

Isn't the megatexturing feature optional? Couldn't you break up your texture into 16 "mini-megatextures" or something to cut down on the amount of memory you need for the compile? Or you can just buy a reasonably beefy machine with 16GB or 32GB with a fast SSD and simply accept that it will take you longer to compile the maps. Depending on what "compiling" them requires, it might not even be that bad. Carmak tweeted awhile back that the 192GB monster they built cut their compile times down a lot, but he didn't make it sound like the original compiles were mathematically impossible or anything.

I remember when Quake first came out and people building their own maps spent hours on the compile step. A few years later computers got a lot faster (and more memory) and it wasn't really an issue anymore.

Re:No custom maps (1)

Surt (22457) | more than 2 years ago | (#37122590)

But now that it's (finally) coming out, a server with 192GiB of ram is pretty cheap. There are plenty of gamers with access or who can even afford a $15k box.

Re:No custom maps (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37123110)

Or someone could come out with a distributed network client.

Re:No custom maps (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37123130)

in the keynote for quakecon2011 he mentioned that it would be interesting to try to max out the engine capabilities using a backend like that...

having such a deveklopment machine is not a requirement at all...

being able to understand english is

Re:No custom maps (1)

Luckyo (1726890) | more than 2 years ago | (#37123320)

He didn't. He said that it was too slow due to swapping, so they built a server with 192GB of RAM. The reference wasn't about how slow building maps is, but relation to an old system that had 128 bytes of ram, and the fact that they can now build a system for less money that has over 9 orders of magnitude more of RAM.

It had nothing to do with actual efficiency, and I suspect that they will optimize the code (or you will just have to build it slowly with swapping).

You can find the statement yourself at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4zgYG-_ha28 [youtube.com] he talks about it around 43 minute mark.

Re:No custom maps (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37123404)

I'm pretty sure if the engine can handle megatexturing, it can also handle standard tiled textures where they prove more convenient.

Re:No custom maps (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37123722)

You completely misinterpreted what he was saying. It's not impossible to make maps without the uber-server that they used, it'll just take awhile.

However, he DID say that, practically-speaking, no one is going to be making a megatexture because it's a lot of work, not because it requires a high-end machine.

and yet another game. (3, Insightful)

Truekaiser (724672) | more than 2 years ago | (#37122402)

gets sucked into steam.. sorry but i rather not be treated as a pirate first and a customer second. sadly most games including many indie titles have now jumped onto this bandwagon.
used to be a pretty avid gamer, not so much anymore. steam pushed me away because i did not want to trade being treated well as a customer for the 'oh shiny' aspect of being able to piss off my isp for downloading multi-gig games and a in game chat function with other people playing other games.

Sadly though this also means that the release of the doom3 source code will most likely be the last time id releases their engine source code to the community. like it or not steam is a drm platform first and foremost. So by tying in steam into id tech 5 means that the release of the source code will be a no go because it might allow others to de-steam other titles easier.

Re:and yet another game. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37122586)

gets sucked into steam.. sorry but i rather not be treated as a pirate first and a customer second. sadly most games including many indie titles have now jumped onto this bandwagon.
used to be a pretty avid gamer, not so much anymore. steam pushed me away because i did not want to trade being treated well as a customer for the 'oh shiny' aspect of being able to piss off my isp for downloading multi-gig games and a in game chat function with other people playing other games.

Sadly though this also means that the release of the doom3 source code will most likely be the last time id releases their engine source code to the community. like it or not steam is a drm platform first and foremost. So by tying in steam into id tech 5 means that the release of the source code will be a no go because it might allow others to de-steam other titles easier.

So you're saying Ideology and dogma trump practicality and gameplay every time for you? Pity shame.

You can keep going with that. Please, feel free to add in a few quotes from Nineteen Eighty-Four or an adage about a frog and a pot of boiling water while you're at it. Meantime, I'll go play games with people who've grown up and realized Steam's implementation of all this isn't bad at all. Games which are being released by developers who ALSO release non-Steam versions, and they don't seem to mind, either.

Now, you may bring around the entire "The People(tm) will revolt against this madness" line, of course, and you're well within your right to do so. Just remember that I've had this exact same argument with people like you before, if not you exactly, and Steam is still, well, steaming ahead, with or without you.

Re:and yet another game. (1)

adeft (1805910) | more than 2 years ago | (#37122606)

Don't like steam? Don't support it, but it is DRM done mostly right. The positives/negatives have been discussed on this site to death. As for "de-steaming" a game, it is done and will continue to be done. No 10 year old source code is going to change what hackers are doing right now.

Re:and yet another game. (1)

Jonner (189691) | more than 2 years ago | (#37122876)

gets sucked into steam.. sorry but i rather not be treated as a pirate first and a customer second. sadly most games including many indie titles have now jumped onto this bandwagon.
used to be a pretty avid gamer, not so much anymore. steam pushed me away because i did not want to trade being treated well as a customer for the 'oh shiny' aspect of being able to piss off my isp for downloading multi-gig games and a in game chat function with other people playing other games.

Sadly though this also means that the release of the doom3 source code will most likely be the last time id releases their engine source code to the community. like it or not steam is a drm platform first and foremost. So by tying in steam into id tech 5 means that the release of the source code will be a no go because it might allow others to de-steam other titles easier.

Do you have any basis for such broad assumptions? All of the games which Id has already released source for are available on Steam, which debunks your conspiracy theory immediately. Though Steam does include DRM, it's the least intrusive type I've encountered. It has never added any restrictions on what I want to do with a game beyond the restrictions inherent in them being distributed only as binaries.

One thing it does prevent is easily transferring a game you've paid for to someone else, though I haven't wanted to do that so far. OTOH, I have installed many mods on games in Steam, including ones that change the main executable and haven't had any interference from Steam. Also, just because a game uses Steam doesn't prevent it from being distributed on DVDs, which would keep your ISP happy (though I'm not sure why that's such a concern to you). I'm not happy that Steam has DRM, but I'm also not happy that the games are proprietary and I don't have the source for them (except the older Id ones obviously). In my experience, Steam doesn't practically reduce my freedom beyond the games' proprietariness.

I don't like DRM... (5, Informative)

SanityInAnarchy (655584) | more than 2 years ago | (#37123278)

...but I do like Steam.

sorry but i rather not be treated as a pirate first and a customer second.

You say that, but you then admit a few things Steam does, which you just don't care about:

i did not want to trade being treated well as a customer for the 'oh shiny' aspect of being able to piss off my isp for downloading multi-gig games and a in game chat function with other people playing other games.

Well, I do like those things, except my current ISP doesn't suck.

I like being able to buy a game, go do something for 15 minutes, and then have it ready to play, without having to leave the house. At the moment (for the next few days, at least), I'm in a small enough town that the only other real option is buying discs from, say, Wall-Mart -- which isn't exactly convenient, considering I'd then need to do some research and find out if I need to keep the disc around, how I can make backups of that game, etc.

I like being able to buy a new computer, type my Steam username and password, and within a few hours, have all the games I care about installed -- and, surprisingly, with my savegames, keybindings, and other settings included.

I like being able to message a friend, in or out of game, and just jump into whatever game they're playing (assuming we both own the same game), or invite them into mine. For that matter, I like that the Steam dashboard seems to apply to most Steam games, even the ones which (thanks, EA) try to get me to sign up for their own competing service -- I can instantly pull that up and see the current time, a web browser, etc. I can click a player's name from an in-game menu and have it pop the browser open to their Steam profile. All this without alt-tabbing, in a nice translucent overlay so I can see what's happening in-game.

I like that all my games stay patched without me having to check them individually, and I've known Steam to even bother me to update my video drivers occasionally. If I could do everything through a similar package manager (like Windows Update, maybe), I would, but better a unified platform like Steam than each game adding something to my system tray, or having to check each game's website for updates.

If I can find a game without DRM, I'll buy it over Steam any day -- but, surprisingly, the Humble Indie Bundle included Steam activation anyway. If a game includes extra DRM on top of Steam, I won't buy it, which means I still have to pay attention -- I was a hair away from buying Arkham Asylum when I realized it had SecuROM on top of Steam -- and I think Steam itself warned me about this. Most of the time, I'll stick to indie games with Linux ports.

But Portal 2 was one of the best games I've ever played, and I'm not going to miss out on that experience because I can't play it on Linux, or... wait, is there anything else I actually want to do with a game that Steam prevents me from doing?

Sadly though this also means that the release of the doom3 source code will most likely be the last time id releases their engine source code to the community. like it or not steam is a drm platform first and foremost.

Bullshit. Again, the Humble Indie Bundle (at least the latest one) includes Steam activation codes. If you remember, almost all of the original Humble Indie Bundle games released their source. For that matter, you can buy Quake 3 Arena on Steam, and its source is released -- and I seem to remember that id games have included things like CD checks in the past. I much prefer Steam to putting a CD in the drive every time I play -- I've got a terabyte hard drive in my gaming rig, there's no excuse for that.

So by tying in steam into id tech 5 means that the release of the source code will be a no go because it might allow others to de-steam other titles easier.

If so, why wouldn't they have the same problem have existed with other engines? Quake 4 shipped with a CD check. Later, an official patch removed it. Now the doom 3 source (at least, if not also quake 4) is going to be released with Rage. While I don't know how long id will keep it up, I see no reason Steam would make this more difficult than a CD key, especially given the number of games which are already available with and without Steam.

Borderlands Similarity? (2)

FFCecil (623749) | more than 2 years ago | (#37122526)

Am I the only one who thinks that Rage looks a lot like Borderlands, but without the variation in weapons? I haven't come across such a comparison yet, but it was the first (and still prevalent) thought I had upon seeing the trailer.

Re:Borderlands Similarity? (1)

The Great Pretender (975978) | more than 2 years ago | (#37123190)

I was reading down the replies wondering the same thing. Borderlands was the first thing that came to mind. I also don't see the WOW factor in the landscape, perhaps I've been watching too many BF3 trailers.

Re:Borderlands Similarity? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37123448)

I actually thought Rage had been released as Borderlands when I saw the screenshots, and honestly just thought Rage was a lame competitor to Fallout 3. It might've been nice 2-4 years ago, but it's really been passed by in the meantime.

Wow, what a great-loking boring-ass game! (2)

elrous0 (869638) | more than 2 years ago | (#37122812)

I can see every little detail of the textures in the lame fucking grindfest! Look at the incredible lighting as I fight the same shitty enemies as in every other goddamned FPS! This millionth hall that I'm running looks INCREDIBLE!

selling point to the player? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37123002)

I'm really not too excited about megatexturing from a player's perspective. It seems to me like everything that's ever been said about it has praised it from the standpoint of development, rather than how it changes the experience of the player. Most of the modern AAA games that I've seen lately don't exactly have jarringly bad repeating textures, with the same scrap of paper or broken tile baked-in and repeating every five feet. The fact that they're still going to end up using stamps and other repeating elements to bake into their megatexture also makes that point a bit moot anyways. From a visual/player's perspective the one thing that keeps jumping out at me is the fact that the quality of the textures probably won't be that great, and the fact that they're having to be extremely cautious as to how and where they allocate their texture resources on a map. Perhaps this is largely due to the RAM and media budget on the present console systems, but at least with past titles that were hampered by poor textures, it was probably the simplest and easiest issue to address when modding a game that was ported to the PC.

Graphics vs Art (1)

Nanosphere (1867972) | more than 2 years ago | (#37123412)

Call me old fashioned but if they still made games based off the Doom 1&2 engines that had the same quality of artwork, I'd still buy and play them.
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