Beta

×

Welcome to the Slashdot Beta site -- learn more here. Use the link in the footer or click here to return to the Classic version of Slashdot.

Thank you!

Before you choose to head back to the Classic look of the site, we'd appreciate it if you share your thoughts on the Beta; your feedback is what drives our ongoing development.

Beta is different and we value you taking the time to try it out. Please take a look at the changes we've made in Beta and  learn more about it. Thanks for reading, and for making the site better!

Warrantless Wiretapping Cases At the 9th Circuit

Unknown Lamer posted more than 2 years ago | from the no-good-peaceniks-causing-trouble dept.

Electronic Frontier Foundation 126

sunbird writes "The EFF argued several critical cases yesterday before the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals. Both Hepting v. AT&T and Jewel v. National Security Agency raise important questions regarding whether the NSA's warrantless wiretapping program (pdf summary of evidence), disclosed by whistleblower Mark Klein and implemented by AT&T and other telecoms, violates the Fourth Amendment to the U.S. Constitution. The full text of the Klein declaration and redacted exhibits are publicly available (pdf). ... The Klein evidence establishes that AT&T cut into the fiber optic cables in San Francisco to route a complete copy of internet and phone traffic to the 'SG3' secure room operated by the NSA. The trial court dismissed the Hepting lawsuit (pdf order) based on the 2008 Congressional grant of immunity to telecoms. Similarly, the trial court in Jewel dismissed (pdf order) the lawsuit against the government agencies and officials based on the state secrets privilege. Both cases were argued together before the same panel of judges. The audio of the oral argument will be available after noon PDT [17:00 GMT] today."

cancel ×

126 comments

Sorry! There are no comments related to the filter you selected.

The TLAs and Corporate Lackeys (1)

Jeremiah Cornelius (137) | more than 2 years ago | (#37276032)

Are at war with the people of the US. The lickspittle courts are their puppets.

End allegiance to this so called "America" right now. It's like a being a convict, with allegiance to his penitentiary.

Re:The TLAs and Corporate Lackeys (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37276090)

Not that the Democrats are much better, but if we elect a Republican president next year we are completely at the mercy of corporate America. Even the small privacy protections we have now will be gone, a victim of the quest to control and profit from all data.

Re:The TLAs and Corporate Lackeys (3, Insightful)

SilverHatHacker (1381259) | more than 2 years ago | (#37276150)

but if we elect a president next year we are completely at the mercy of corporate America.

FTFY. Unfortunately, the only viable form of government I can think of that's not subject to human corruption is SkyNet.

I want your clothes your boots and your motorcycle (1)

Tsingi (870990) | more than 2 years ago | (#37276238)

but if we elect a president next year we are completely at the mercy of corporate America.

FTFY. Unfortunately, the only viable form of government I can think of that's not subject to human corruption is SkyNet.

ROFL! We all know how that ends up.

Still, it might be the better choice.

Re:I want your clothes your boots and your motorcy (1)

X0563511 (793323) | more than 2 years ago | (#37276392)

Stepping back from the sillyness, it's a scary idea. That said, it's scary because it's an unknown. It may well actually be the best choice!

Re:The TLAs and Corporate Lackeys (1)

Jeremiah Cornelius (137) | more than 2 years ago | (#37276272)

The Matrix.

Re:The TLAs and Corporate Lackeys (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37276328)

You clearly don't get it. There are no Republicans or Democrats in politics. Those are farcical institutions designed to keep the populace at each other's throats.

Re:The TLAs and Corporate Lackeys (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37276670)

You don't get it. There's not 2 parties dismantling government infrastructure and intentionally bleeding our finances in order to raise the gap between rich and poor. There is only 1 party doing any serious attempt at that. Dems will sometimes acquiesce or contribute to that problem but the scale is not nearly as grand. Your explanation is a weak excuse for not having paid attention. Look at the voting records, what Congress does and who votes for and against before making these lazy comments.

The Dems are not nearly the leftist iconoclasts that I wish they were, but they are more reasonable than what you see on the other side by far. The Republicans are harrrrrrd right. They have become more so with every election since I've been paying attention to politics. Maybe what you're saying could have been said decades ago -- that the parties were essentially the same. But today there are huge differences in terms of positions on economics and income distribution. Huge. You can say they're not there but that just tells me you haven't been paying attention to the last few decades of US politics.

Re:The TLAs and Corporate Lackeys (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37277192)

You can say they're not there but that just tells me you haven't been paying attention to the last few decades of US politics.,

Newsflash: Paying attention does not inevitably lead to agreement with you.

Re:The TLAs and Corporate Lackeys (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37277382)

Newsflash: Paying attention inevitably leads to an informed opinion.

Re:The TLAs and Corporate Lackeys (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37277736)

Yes, but "informed opinion" does not mean "identical to my opinion". And yes, that IS what you're saying.

Re:The TLAs and Corporate Lackeys (1)

imric (6240) | more than 2 years ago | (#37277982)

Nah you are just looking for an excuse not to vote.

Re:The TLAs and Corporate Lackeys (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37278736)

I do vote, and nothing that I said gave you the impression that I don't. You made that up.

Re:The TLAs and Corporate Lackeys (3, Insightful)

element-o.p. (939033) | more than 2 years ago | (#37278832)

What, exactly, have you been smoking for the last three years? The Dems are no different than the Neo-Cons. Both sides lie, cheat and steal to hold on to their power. Obama campaigned on "Hope and Change", but what, exactly, has he done differently than his predecessor? Bush authorized warrantless wiretapping and Obama promised to vote against telecom immunity for that...until he was elected president, and then, as one of his last actions while still he senator, he voted for the very bill he promised to oppose. Bush (rightfully) got raked over the coals for the Iraq War; Obama now is dodging the War Powers Act so we can get involved in Libya. Under Bush, TSA/DHS was created; under Obama, TSA initiated the AIT scanners/pat-downs at the airports.

Yeah, you can nitpick social issues like abortion and stem-cell research, but when push comes to shove, there really isn't a lot of difference between the two parties. Both of them are eager to drive the country to insolvency. Both endorse handouts to their corporate backers. Neither one is willing to make the hard choices that will get this country out of the hole we have dug for ourselves. Both parties are busy wiping their backsides with the Constitution while making the federal bureaucracy as bloated as possible, and neither party really gives a rip about how badly they trample the average joes like you and me in the mean time. If you think the Democrats are even remotely interested in making your life better, then, my friend, YOU are the one who hasn't been paying attention lately.

Re:The TLAs and Corporate Lackeys (2)

GameboyRMH (1153867) | more than 2 years ago | (#37278918)

Good points about the difference in policies between the two, however it seems that having the Dems in power doesn't stop the Republicans from doing exactly what they want, it only slows them down slightly.

Re:The TLAs and Corporate Lackeys (1)

nog_lorp (896553) | more than 2 years ago | (#37280724)

Where are the mod points!? Sad that spot-on comments like this get no points and only get troll replies.

Anyways... they aren't just there to keep people fighting and distracted, but also to exploit basic human nature. Sectarianism is always a powerful tool - you can't get a leg up by telling people to vote for the other guy, or to be unified.

Re:The TLAs and Corporate Lackeys (4, Interesting)

KiloByte (825081) | more than 2 years ago | (#37276474)

Dubya at least tried to hide his treason (hard to call that a different name), Barrack Hussein says wiretapping is the right thing to do.

But hey, they're respectively 2nd worst and the worst US president in history. Look at other pretenders to these titles: Nixon, almost impeached for wiretapping a single freaking hotel while Dubya and Barrack H. do this to the whole nation. Buchanan who screwed an important task but at least tried. Harding, whose biggest sin was giving an oil company preferential access to a single facility. On the other hand, our present heroes went to multiple wars under knowingly false pretenses, threw away more taxpayer money than all other presidents in history and ensured a dominance of their buddies at Big Finance.

Re:The TLAs and Corporate Lackeys (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37276592)

But hey, [W and Obama are] respectively 2nd worst and the worst US president in history.

Obviously you're too young to remember Carter.

Re:The TLAs and Corporate Lackeys (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37276848)

But hey, [W and Obama are] respectively 2nd worst and the worst US president in history.

Obviously you're too young to remember Carter.

And Harding.

Re:The TLAs and Corporate Lackeys (1)

Nadaka (224565) | more than 2 years ago | (#37277104)

And Garfield.

Re:The TLAs and Corporate Lackeys (1)

said213 (72685) | more than 2 years ago | (#37277654)

And Odie.

Re:The TLAs and Corporate Lackeys (1)

Jeremiah Cornelius (137) | more than 2 years ago | (#37278220)

Jon was the power behind the throne.

Re:The TLAs and Corporate Lackeys (1)

element-o.p. (939033) | more than 2 years ago | (#37279068)

...and Odie?

Re:The TLAs and Corporate Lackeys (2)

digitig (1056110) | more than 2 years ago | (#37276908)

Re:The TLAs and Corporate Lackeys (1)

LibRT (1966204) | more than 2 years ago | (#37277292)

That was just a payoff to brother Billy...

Re:The TLAs and Corporate Lackeys (1)

mikelieman (35628) | more than 2 years ago | (#37280292)

"History's Greatest Monster!"

Re:The TLAs and Corporate Lackeys (1)

element-o.p. (939033) | more than 2 years ago | (#37278940)

Carter may have been a screw-up, but he, at least, wasn't flat out evil. On the worst-presidents-of-all-time scale, I'd say Nixon, Bush and Obama easily surpass Carter.

Re:The TLAs and Corporate Lackeys (1)

ShakaUVM (157947) | more than 2 years ago | (#37279694)

>>Carter may have been a screw-up, but he, at least, wasn't flat out evil. On the worst-presidents-of-all-time scale, I'd say Nixon, Bush and Obama easily surpass Carter.

You're forgetting Martin Van Buren.

Re:The TLAs and Corporate Lackeys (1, Informative)

cforciea (1926392) | more than 2 years ago | (#37277004)

FYI, bringing up that Obama's middle name is Hussein at every opportunity makes you sound like a racist cunt and probably goes a long way towards making people not listen to you.

Re:The TLAs and Corporate Lackeys (1)

Megane (129182) | more than 2 years ago | (#37277664)

Indeed. I suggest "Barack Dubya Carter" instead, since he's so full of the chewy goodness of both of those other two presidents.

Re:The TLAs and Corporate Lackeys (0)

edt12345 (603677) | more than 2 years ago | (#37279750)

FYI, your whining about someone using BHO's name makes you look like a liberal douche whose love for the One is beyond bounds and no one will listen to you either.

Re:The TLAs and Corporate Lackeys (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37280314)

Browser Helper Object? Probably malware, better delete it.

Re:The TLAs and Corporate Lackeys (1)

KiloByte (825081) | more than 2 years ago | (#37280242)

I intentionally insulted both bozos. And note that "Barrack Hussein" is the unmodified first and middle name, way more respectful than "Dubya" -- a corruption of the middle name only, which somehow did not cause you to protest. Perhaps you're irrationally biased towards a representative of one wing of the NeoCon party but not the other?

Speaking of insults, I resent being called "racist", as that's a specific allegation. You can call me a "cunt" all you want, it's a pure insult, no one is going to assume I'm an organ I happen to not possess.

Re:The TLAs and Corporate Lackeys (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37280434)

I still think you're a cunt. Pics or you still have one.

Re:The TLAs and Corporate Lackeys (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37280522)

FTFY: He/It/She is a rascist mouthbreathing koolaid drinking cunt.

Re:The TLAs and Corporate Lackeys (1)

betterunixthanunix (980855) | more than 2 years ago | (#37277026)

Clearly we are doomed, since we don't have any choice other than "democrats" or "republicans."

Re:The TLAs and Corporate Lackeys (1)

Kjella (173770) | more than 2 years ago | (#37276092)

The TLAs and Corporate Lackeys are at war with the people of the US

That TLA is taken by another TLA, try again.

Re:The TLAs and Corporate Lackeys (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37276282)

That TLA is taken by another TLA, try again.

Yeah... But technically, that should be TLI.

It's an initialism unless you pronounce the letters together as a word.

Re:The TLAs and Corporate Lackeys (1)

Nadaka (224565) | more than 2 years ago | (#37276178)

America has never really lived up to its ideals, but we have worked hard to make progress in that direction against enemies both foreign and domestic. We are currently loosing that battle against the corporatists, classists and authoritarians. Why do the American patriots have to abandon our country to those who have corrupted it and blasphemed against liberty and justice? Why not fight back, and put our nation back on the path towards a better America?

Re:The TLAs and Corporate Lackeys (1, Informative)

Jeremiah Cornelius (137) | more than 2 years ago | (#37276226)

That is exactly the game they will have you play, to keep you unempowered and in stasis.

The first President was a Freemason. His Treasury Secretary was an Agent of The Bank of England. This has ALWAYS been a puppet-show.

Wake up.

Re:The TLAs and Corporate Lackeys (1)

said213 (72685) | more than 2 years ago | (#37277774)

Please tell me that you are aware that virrtually anyone can become a freemason.
It's not some super-exclusive-secretive-conspiracy group.

Wake up.

Re:The TLAs and Corporate Lackeys (1)

Jeremiah Cornelius (137) | more than 2 years ago | (#37278140)

There are Catholic churches everywhere. It's easy to be confirmed, and take regular communion.

There's also a Vatican, a Vatican bank - and circles-within-circles of secret initiation and lineage, some with "occult pretensions".

The presence of the former is not a disqualifier of the latter, nor does it dilute - but rather conceals.

If you can't tell the difference, or don't wish to investigate the difference between the neighbourhood ring-and-fez lodge from, say "Propaganda Due" - then you are perfectly within your rights.

And the top-level aprons are pleased with you exercising them.

I think that it is at least worthy of consideration, the historical connection that people like MacGregor Mathers and Aleister Crowley made, between the Golden Dawn, OTO and freemasonry.

This guy was probably just looking for better connections with local business leaders, and a sense of belonging with purpose:
http://img.ibtimes.com/www/data/images/full/2011/07/23/136344-anders-behring-breivik.jpg [ibtimes.com]

Re:The TLAs and Corporate Lackeys (1)

said213 (72685) | more than 2 years ago | (#37278346)

You pointed out a visible boogeyman... it looked like an "OMGPONIES" moment... And, while I understand the point you were out to make, that point doesn't really accomplish much of a constructive nature. Fingers can be used to point, but they can also be used to secure things worth holding on to. The thing worth pointing at is rarely worth holding on to.

Mostly, though; I'm just feeling ornery. Thanks for sharing!

Re:The TLAs and Corporate Lackeys (1)

Pharmboy (216950) | more than 2 years ago | (#37279766)

here are Catholic churches everywhere. It's easy to be confirmed, and take regular communion.

Not to nitpick, but you can't just get confirmed and be instantly converted to Catholic, at least in the eyes of the Church. You become a Catechumen to convert to Catholocism. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catechumen [wikipedia.org] for starters.

Re:The TLAs and Corporate Lackeys (1)

Jeremiah Cornelius (137) | more than 2 years ago | (#37279900)

Yes. But it's a private ritual, not heavily vetted or gate-kept, especially with a sponsorship or introduction.

As a 35-year lapsed Catholic, without confirmation, I could easily take communion in this city. I will never get an invitation to see the Pope, or witness the real dealings of the Vatican bank.

Likewise, because there are garden variety freemasons, that doesn't disprove the secret society as an actor in crypto-politics and crypto-economics. In fact, these things are a part of established record.

Re:The TLAs and Corporate Lackeys (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37280698)

Likewise, because there are garden variety freemasons, that doesn't disprove the secret society as an actor in crypto-politics and crypto-economics.

No, but it does undermine your earlier statement, "The first President was a Freemason". The fact that he was a Freemason (assuming he was) doesn't prove that he was part of some kind of conspiracy. Your analogy to the Catholic church only serves to further demonstrate that point.

Re:The TLAs and Corporate Lackeys (1)

gknoy (899301) | more than 2 years ago | (#37279906)

On the other hand, you can do it by the simple act of being born, too.

Re:The TLAs and Corporate Lackeys (1)

Pharmboy (216950) | more than 2 years ago | (#37280594)

Sort of correct, but that isn't the same at converting. Even being born a Catholic (as I was) you must be Baptized, receive Communion and Confirmation to "be" Catholic as an adult. You are welcome to hang out in the pews, but you aren't officially a part of the Church. Can you lie? Sure, but that's not the point. The point is you don't just sign up, go to a couple weeks of Confirmation classes and "become" Catholic, according to the dogma of the church.

I know many people who went through being Catechumen to become Catholic. It took a lot of classes and a several months. Of course, this was almost 20 years ago, back when I was a Catholic. Leaving the Catholic Church was much easier than joining it.

Re:The TLAs and Corporate Lackeys (3, Insightful)

dkleinsc (563838) | more than 2 years ago | (#37276470)

Why do the American patriots have to abandon our country to those who have corrupted it and blasphemed against liberty and justice? Why not fight back, and put our nation back on the path towards a better America?

The major reasons this doesn't happen are closely related to characteristics of true patriots that differ heavily from corporatists, classists, and authoritarians. Here are some of the bigger ones:
1. The patriots aren't willing to completely wreck the country if they don't get what they want.
2. The patriots aren't willing to cheat, and in most cases aren't willing to commit violent or property crime, in order to gain power.
3. Patriots who are not authoritarian are much less organized than authoritarians, who by their very nature are able to move in lock-step.
4. Patriots are aware that if the authoritarians turned the US military, or military contractors like Xe, on the US citizenry, the authoritarians would likely win, even if they lost would wreck the place in the process (see point 1).

Re:The TLAs and Corporate Lackeys (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37277112)

Uh.. If (1) is true, the "patriots" you are speaking of are not patriotic. Rebellion that has any chance of success also risks completely wrecking the country. This is an unavoidable risk of rebellion, even when the rebels are strictly non-violent. It may be a small risk, and they may work to minimize the risk, but it exists. If they are unwilling to take it, they cannot succeed.

If (2) is true, you are again not speaking of patriots. They have not learned the lessons that the populace of this country taught when creating this country. Violent overthrow is, a last resort to be sure, sometimes necessary. If you are unwilling to go to this extreme, you are willing to suffer the atrocities of a government that is happy to use violence to maintain the status quo. They may "work within the system" to try to stop abuses of government power; but even if they never succeed, your "patriots" will never be willing to go to the mat for what is right. And I cannot in good conscience blame them. People have children to look after, lives to live. But they are not patriots.

(4) may be partly true. But it is also partly false. There is no guarantee, or even any real indication that any "authoritarian" move to turn federal military or domestic mercenaries on the citizenry would result in an authoritarian win. In the first place, the federal military is a cross-section of the US populace. If it comes to civil war, the military is going to split heavily. In the second place, not even authoritarians want to end up ruling the trash heap. You can't drink your $5 lattes when Starbucks is a smoking ruin courtesy of the tank batallion that rolled through.

Re:The TLAs and Corporate Lackeys (2)

Hatta (162192) | more than 2 years ago | (#37276860)

Why do the American patriots have to abandon our country to those who have corrupted it and blasphemed against liberty and justice? Why not fight back, and put our nation back on the path towards a better America?

How? What can anyone do that has a chance of turning this country around? Anyone with radical enough ideas to really change this country will never be taken seriously by the media. Therefore you will never have a chance of getting elected, and never have a chance to make a change working with the system.

The other alternative is to work outside the system. Revolution. I'm ready today, but we can't pick up arms until we have a realistic chance of winning. Otherwise we'll just be treated like Loughner. Of course, we can't build a revolutionary army without getting our message out there. So we run into the same problem we see above.

Anyway you look at it, I see no light at the end of this tunnel.

Re:The TLAs and Corporate Lackeys (1)

jafiwam (310805) | more than 2 years ago | (#37277268)

There IS light at the end of the tunnel, we as a nation as a whole and singly just need to realize it is us. The country does not need "turning around", it needs a few adjustments in some very important areas that is all.

Taking up arms in revolution is only legit if the means to change from within through the normal process are no longer valid. You can't just "disbelieve" in those means and gain validity for your revolution.

You will gain no friends with that type of talk, you sound like an embittered old bible thumping douchebag with it.

If it comes to revolution, you'll find me, a Constitutionalist (and therefore both conservatively and liberally bent) willing to pretend to take up arms with you, but then proceeding to shoot you in the back with them. Revolution would lose us the Constitution, bank on it. If we cannot change from within, then we have already lost the Constitution.

Re:The TLAs and Corporate Lackeys (1)

flaming error (1041742) | more than 2 years ago | (#37277638)

> Revolution would lose us the Constitution
The Constitution was lost long ago. It has become glaringly obvious since 9/11, to anybody who reads it.

> shoot you in the back
You will gain no friends with that type of talk

> bank on it
An ironic recommendation, given that our fractional reserve banks are hardly a dependable bastion of security

Re:The TLAs and Corporate Lackeys (1)

Hatta (162192) | more than 2 years ago | (#37278460)

If we cannot change from within, then we have already lost the Constitution.

Yes, that's my point. The US government is wholly illegitimate, and has been for years. You simply haven't been paying attention.

Re:The TLAs and Corporate Lackeys (1)

imric (6240) | more than 2 years ago | (#37278604)

Hatta - is that for the Palestinian village? Or Mohammad Hatta? Or Hatta in the United Arab Emirates?

Just curious.

Re:The TLAs and Corporate Lackeys (1)

Hatta (162192) | more than 2 years ago | (#37280706)

No, it's a literary reference.

Re:The TLAs and Corporate Lackeys (2)

element-o.p. (939033) | more than 2 years ago | (#37279252)

For the most part, I agree with you. However, there is one thing that trumps the Constitution on my list of priorities. When the government, whether democratically elected or not, begins to sufficiently persecute my family and loved ones unjustly, I will take whatever action I can to put an end to it, including, if need be, violent revolution.

The Constitution is indeed very, very important to me, but ultimately it is only a means to an end (namely, justice and liberty).

Re:The TLAs and Corporate Lackeys (2)

Omestes (471991) | more than 2 years ago | (#37279194)

Judging from 99% of of people I've heard bandying about the term "revolution", I'd probably be on the street fighting against you, an in favor of our absolutely corrupt, somewhat evil, ELECTED, representative government. You might be a different type of revolutionary than most, for all I know, so don't take it personally.

Most of the would-be revolutionaries I've mean, read about, etc... fall into two camps. Lunatics or Authoritarians who are mad that things aren't they way they perceive as the singular, a priori, truth. Most of the lunatics are white-supremacy types, and i sure as well would fight to keep them from recieving any small modicum of control. The latter bit are mostly (these days) Libertarian Utopians, and Tea partiers, and both of their versions of Utopia sound more like hell to me (and probably around 50% of everyone else). In the 60's 70's, this also included the far-left lunatic fringe, but they've all pretty much died off now. I say authoritarian, for these two groups, since they have their panties in a twist because voters voted for people who don't agree with their personal philosophy (as such) of governance. So it would be okay to force their views on people, but not for others to do the same to them. Worse, they (and the lunatics) hold ideals above the real world, and real people, and are will to make people suffer for mere subjective ideas. They, in other words, know better.

Nothing good has ever come from people who claim to "know better", who subsequently force their will on others. Right now, in America, to be a "revolutionary", is actually just wanting to be a tyrant.

No, we are not perfect. Yes, there are tons of things I would change. Yes, we're probably at the brink of decline. Yes, we have TONS of things to be ashamed of. But... All of our faults fall onto the people. Sure, politicians are the people who do the actions, but we voted them in, watch as they do evil, and then, this is the important bit, vote them in again. We, the people, willfully refuse to acknowledge third parties or affiliated candidates. We the people listen to the media uncritically, and always vote for whoever spent the most money on advertising. We the people hate the educated ("damn elitists"), we hate intellectuals (to the point of making it an inexplicable slander), we want to vote for "normal" people who are as moronic, myopic, and uneducated, as us. Hell, we would NEVER even vote for a person who doesn't look good on T.V., they have to look like they escaped from a daytime soap opera.

We have the government we deserve. If you don't like it, become an activist. If it really looks like a tyranny (which would be ironic, since we're talking of revolution without the fear of ours doors being kicked in, or disappearing in the night), then pick up arms. But only if all other non-violent options have been exhausted. And after you evaluate WHY yu want to rain misery down on the innocent, non-caring, civilians of our country... is it because your not getting your way, or because we're living in a genuine (thing chunks of Africa) tyranny.

Re:The TLAs and Corporate Lackeys (1)

Hatta (162192) | more than 2 years ago | (#37279832)

Most of the would-be revolutionaries I've mean, read about, etc... fall into two camps. Lunatics or Authoritarians who are mad that things aren't they way they perceive as the singular, a priori, truth.

I agree with you actually. This is why I'm not in favor of revolution at the moment. There's no popular movement in any direction that would make us more free. This makes me equally pessimistic about our chances for change inside and outside the system.

Nothing good has ever come from people who claim to "know better", who subsequently force their will on others.

I agree. But this is what our government seems to think it's supposed to do.

But... All of our faults fall onto the people. Sure, politicians are the people who do the actions, but we voted them in, watch as they do evil, and then, this is the important bit, vote them in again

Have you considered that maybe, we can't help it? That the system is rigged to produce a predetermined outcome? For instance, it's not "the people's" fault that we have a two party system. It's an inevitable mathematical consequence of the winner take all electoral system we have. In other countries with proportional representation third parties have a lot more influence.

American politics is a lot like a card trick. When a magician asks you to "pick a card, any card", do you think he cares what card you pick? No, no matter what card you pick, he can manipulate you, or the deck, to make the trick work. It's the same in politics. The electorate is vulnerable to misdirection and sleight of hand.

Look at Obama. The American people wanted change so badly they elected a half black one term senator, overcoming prejudices against race, inexperience, and foreigners. Even after overcoming all those hurdles, what did we get? We got another corporate puppet. You can't blame "the people" for that one.

Or look at Ron Paul this year. He got 2nd place in the Iowa Straw Poll, less than a percentage point behind Bachmann. Still, the media refuses to talk about him as if he were a serious candidate. It's obvious that what the people want simply doesn't matter.

Or lets go a few more elections back and talk about Ralph Nader. In 2004 and 2008 Nader faced a media blackout even more severe than that against Ron Paul today. Here's a guy who can draw crowds of 10000 strong, and can't get a mention in the local newspaper.

How can "the people" be faulted for any of this? How do we have a chance when the deck is stacked against us?

since we're talking of revolution without the fear of ours doors being kicked in

I don't know about you, but I live in fear of having my doors kicked in. This country has been waging war on its own citizens for half a century now.

Re:The TLAs and Corporate Lackeys (2)

wizkid (13692) | more than 2 years ago | (#37277478)

Yes, It starts at the ballot box. Quit closing your mind and selecting democratic or republican candidates. They've developed a duopoly that locks out anyone working for the people. And we need to find a way to take the power away from the lobbyists. They're the ones writing the bills that get put before congress. IMHO we should get the people to put a amendment to the constitution to increase terms by 50%, and eliminate getting re-elected in office, and make all elections publicly funded and audited. This will cut off at least some of the flow of money to re-election slush funds, of which I suspect are slushed out of elections, and slipped into politicians pockets. You'll never see congress put a amendment out to do this. The only way it will get done is to get a group of people in each state to put the same constitutional amendment on the state ballot box.

Remember that the Constitution starts with "We the People". If we leave it to congress and the White House, they're going to change it to "We the Corporations".

Re:The TLAs and Corporate Lackeys (1)

fyngyrz (762201) | more than 2 years ago | (#37280554)

Remember that the Constitution starts with "We the People". If we leave it to congress and the White House, they're going to change it to "We the Corporations".

Already done. They did it by having the supreme court define corporations as "people."

Re:The TLAs and Corporate Lackeys (2, Funny)

ArcCoyote (634356) | more than 2 years ago | (#37276258)

Sorry, your ID must be 1,2,or 6 digits for me to give a fsck what you say. There are approximately 99,899 kooks on ./, and I'm fairly sure where they are clustered.

IF you have a 7+ digit ID, get off my lawn.

Re:The TLAs and Corporate Lackeys (2)

Jeremiah Cornelius (137) | more than 2 years ago | (#37276380)

Somehow, you correspond chronology and opportunity with credibility and veracity? :-)

Bruce Perens has a 4-digit UID. I don't know if that either confirms or invalidates your thesis. Oh.

I almost forgot. "TIMECUBE"!

Meept

Re:The TLAs and Corporate Lackeys (1)

X0563511 (793323) | more than 2 years ago | (#37276400)

So, you don't mind my staying? Really!?

Re:The TLAs and Corporate Lackeys (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37277926)

it's /. not ./ You're quite proud for someone who can't even get the name right.

Sorry, your ID must be 1,2,or 6 digits for me to give a fsck what you say. There are approximately 99,899 kooks on ./, and I'm fairly sure where they are clustered.

IF you have a 7+ digit ID, get off my lawn.

Re:The TLAs and Corporate Lackeys (1)

flaming error (1041742) | more than 2 years ago | (#37276274)

That depends how you define "America".

If it's the federal gov't, I agree with you.

But I prefer to think of "America" as an ideal, a people who historically have seen themselves as a beacon of freedom, a generous benefactor of those in need, an enlightened trailblazer.

To that vision I am an ally, even if many of the people I see around me personify the opposite.

Re:The TLAs and Corporate Lackeys (1)

h4rr4r (612664) | more than 2 years ago | (#37276360)

That ideal is a ration of shit sold to keep the masses quiet. Sure it sounds great, but never happened.

Re:The TLAs and Corporate Lackeys (1)

flaming error (1041742) | more than 2 years ago | (#37276702)

> it sounds great, but never happened.
That's probably the definition of an "ideal."

But America has done those things, from time to time. Not as consistently as we'd like, and not without doing evil too, but there's no law of the cosmos that says a generally benign culture can't exist and flourish. They did it in Star Trek...

Re:The TLAs and Corporate Lackeys (1)

said213 (72685) | more than 2 years ago | (#37277864)

"They did it in Star Trek"

Star Trek is all fiction... None of the characters exist and, by extension; none of the characters "did" anything.
Sorry for pointing this out, but that statement is just nonsense.

Re:The TLAs and Corporate Lackeys (1)

Jeremiah Cornelius (137) | more than 2 years ago | (#37278342)

In fact, "Star Trek" despite its desirability and delightfulness, is really just propaganda for an impossibility: The peaceful yet militarised, multilateral society that resorts to force only to enforce its ethical vision.

It is the story an elite wants its liberal, middle classes to believe, as it pursues a globalist agenda. It has the fantastical elements of unlimited vistas of frontier, with no barrier to resource consumption or constraint on availability.

Star Trek is the wet dream for the New World Order.

Re:The TLAs and Corporate Lackeys (1)

Jeremiah Cornelius (137) | more than 2 years ago | (#37278394)

To bring it back home?

"We'll never get to the world of Star Trek, without bombing Belgrade and Tripoli! We need humanitarian intervention!"

http://a2.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/264006_137311913016487_100002130376882_282364_1460330_n.jpg [fbcdn.net]

Re:The TLAs and Corporate Lackeys (1)

Omestes (471991) | more than 2 years ago | (#37279288)

Long live Ghadaffi?

I don't get your point.

Re:The TLAs and Corporate Lackeys (1)

Jeremiah Cornelius (137) | more than 2 years ago | (#37279668)

This is the result of "humanitarian intervention".

Ghadaffi is less evil than NATO. By an order of magnitude.

Re:The TLAs and Corporate Lackeys (1)

flaming error (1041742) | more than 2 years ago | (#37280524)

> resorts to force only to enforce its ethical vision.
I don't remember TOS Federation using force for anything but self-defense. I can't speak to the spin-offs.

> an impossibility: The peaceful yet militarised,
Switzerland doesn't think that's impossible.

> Star Trek is the wet dream for the New World Order.
Just out of curiosity, what's the future you hope for?

Re:The TLAs and Corporate Lackeys (1)

element-o.p. (939033) | more than 2 years ago | (#37279452)

I've spent a lot of time thinking about this lately, and you are, of course, somewhat correct but you are also somewhat wrong.

In what time period would I rather have lived? At what point in history was America a better country than it is today? Well...when founded, slavery was rampant and women were only marginally better off, so the first 100 years or so is pretty much out. Even after slavery was abolished, we were still a highly racist country for roughly another hundred years so that wasn't much better, either. We won't even talk about "Manifest Destiny", the Marshall Plan or McCarthyism. Yet despite those problems, the '80s weren't any better. By then, we believed our own BS and were busy bringing "liberty" and "democracy" (by force, if need be) to Panama, Grenada and Nicaragua. Yep, that was a shining beacon for our ideals... </sarc, if that wasn't obvious> By the '90s, we were starting to implode. Greed, corporatism, and such was setting the stage for the economic mess that we are in now. After 9/11, the entire nation started goose-stepping into line behind the military-industrial machine, leaving us where we are now.

So yeah, you're right. We've set lofty goals for ourselves and consistently failed to reach them.

Nevertheless, the fact that our government and even our society has always proved to be considerably less than perfect does not disprove the fact that our culture still embraces the ideal of a fair, just, and honorable society. Just because we haven't yet reached that goal in no way diminishes the value of that ideal.

Re:The TLAs and Corporate Lackeys (1)

ColdWetDog (752185) | more than 2 years ago | (#37276364)

I'd love to agree with you but your nic is disturbingly accurate here.

Re:The TLAs and Corporate Lackeys (1)

msauve (701917) | more than 2 years ago | (#37276536)

Three Letter Acronyms are at war with the US people? I'd have to agree.

Re:The TLAs and Corporate Lackeys (1)

Jeremiah Cornelius (137) | more than 2 years ago | (#37276648)

Agencies. ;-)

Welcome to America (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37276140)

Rule 1: We can do whatever we want to you.
Rule 2: If you have a problem with that, see Rule 1

Lawsuits Cost Money (5, Insightful)

bughunter (10093) | more than 2 years ago | (#37276438)

Unfortunately, it seems like the only way to defend our constitutional rights these days is with lawyers, and lawyers cost money, even EFF's lawyers. And therefore, you and I and anyone who is not either a billionaire or a fictional legal person is at a severe disadvantage, almost impossible to overcome.

Therefore, if you have any money to donate, even if it's only $5, please follow the link in my sig and contribute to the few people who are really, truly fighting for your rights.

Re:Lawsuits Cost Money (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37277530)

Or spend the couple hundred bucks to incorporate yourself in whatever state you live in.

Then you can just take advantage of all the benefits of being a corporate person, and absolve your real person of the responsibilities thereof.

Re:Lawsuits Cost Money (1)

imric (6240) | more than 2 years ago | (#37278092)

Yeah wait until corporations buy shares in YOU. When they have a majority, they have a slave. Hell, all they have to do is require said shares as part of payment for medical procedures.

Re:Lawsuits Cost Money (1)

ShakaUVM (157947) | more than 2 years ago | (#37279666)

Or spend the couple hundred bucks to incorporate yourself in whatever state you live in.

Then you can just take advantage of all the benefits of being a corporate person, and absolve your real person of the responsibilities thereof.

Here in California it's on the order of $800/year for a LLC, and a bonus 1.5% income tax if you're an S-Corp.

Let's Impeach the Prseident (2, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37276570)

"Let's impeach the President for spying
  On citizens inside their own homes
  Breaking every law in the country
  By tapping our computers and telephones"
                                                                  - Neil Young

Re:Let's Impeach the Prseident (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37277528)

Let's remember: That's President Bush.

Re:Let's Impeach the Prseident (1)

Megane (129182) | more than 2 years ago | (#37277690)

...currently in his third term, it would seem.

Re:Let's Impeach the Prseident (1)

said213 (72685) | more than 2 years ago | (#37278144)

Let's remember: He's not in office anymore and the person who's replaced him hasn't seen fit to do otherwise.
Scarey, isn't it.

Re:Let's Impeach the Prseident (1)

element-o.p. (939033) | more than 2 years ago | (#37279470)

Because Obama put an end to that nonsense the minute he set foot in the Oval Office.

Oh, wait...

Private Sector Loophole (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37276612)

It is illegal for the government to directly collect this information, but it is not for a private company... This should be fixed.

Re:Private Sector Loophole (1)

Nadaka (224565) | more than 2 years ago | (#37276942)

The closure of the loophole is that the government can not ask the private person/company to collect that information. Doing so creates a chain of authority and requires a warrant. That is why this is called illegal warrantless wiretapping. The loophole doesn't exist, but they are getting away with it anyway.

..like a Swedish rape.. (1)

scorilo (654174) | more than 2 years ago | (#37276746)

David Leigh of The Guardian may have sodomized Assange of Wikileaks. Assange said "no" but Leigh kept on pressing. Now Assange is suing for rape, but it all depends on the rape laws in UK.

The full text of the Klein declaration (1)

Mirey (1324435) | more than 2 years ago | (#37276774)

The full text of the Klein declaration

For Reference (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37276992)

The 9th circuit is considered the most liberal by far. If the warrantless program doesn't take a hit here, it is here to stay.

I saw the room and fiber (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37277134)

I was in the San Francisco central office where this all happened doing some work in customer accessible areas and got to chatting with an AT&T technician. My friend and I mentioned the 4ESS that's in that building and the tech said oh do you want a tour? So of course we said yes, because how often do you get to walk around in a 4ESS?

At one point we came across some equipment that had a large amount of fiber going into it. My friend commented on how poorly the cabling was done. There was a huge tangle of fiber at the top of the rack. Very bad work by AT&T standards (say what you will about their service, their CO standards are still impeccable).

We just shrugged it off and went further into the room. At the back of this room was another smaller room. We asked the tech what it was and he said "oh, that's secret government stuff. I don't really know more than that." We assumed it was CALEA gear or something and didn't ask any more questions.

These days whenever I hear more about this case I sort of shake my head at my ignorance. But I mean seriously, didn't really think they'd go this far. But in a sort of not good way, it's kinda cool to know I was literally a couple feet from all of this.

Side note: If you ever do get the chance to tour a 4ESS, GO FOR IT! It's a beast of a switch and most of them take up multiple floors of the COs they're in, not including the power plant. When I say "walk around in a 4ESS" I mean it literally. It's not like the 5ESS and the DMS family where it's just a bunch of cabinets. This is old school telephony that's still powering the bulk of AT&T's core voice network and it's all 1960s and 1970s era technology that's been updated like patchwork. These guys are going to be disappearing over the next few years, so if you know someone, beg and plead for a tour. I've seen two of them and they're a phone phreak's dream to tour.

Re:I saw the room and fiber (1)

AliasMarlowe (1042386) | more than 2 years ago | (#37279066)

...they're a phone phreak's dream to tour.

Learn to spell "fone", dammit!

Audio of argument available (1)

sunbird (96442) | more than 2 years ago | (#37277956)

The audio recording of the oral arguments are now available [uscourts.gov] (.wma).

Re:Audio of argument available (1)

sunbird (96442) | more than 2 years ago | (#37277978)

Erm.... the audio recording ... is available. Doh!

Re:Audio of argument available - Hepting is here (1)

sunbird (96442) | more than 2 years ago | (#37278136)

The above link is the argument in Jewel. Here is the audio of the arguments in the Hepting case [uscourts.gov] (wma).

Needs to be said... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37280360)

Why does America with 310,000,000 people living there have 550 people (senate, house, and supreme court) making all of the decisions for the entire rest of the country?
That's roughly .00015% of the population with a say in the laws of the country. That's the same number as when the country had only 2,500,000 people living here.

If our forefathers saw what the population growth rate was going to look like, I can assure you that there'd be more than 600 people making all the rules today. That's a major cause of the first American Revolution... Taxation without representation.

If you do the simple math, by today's population we'd need roughly 72,000 people working in Congress & Supreme court to match the standards of when the constitution was written.

I say, it would be a lot harder to bribe ('lobby' is a cute euphemism) 51% of those people into passing your agenda. It would mean the difference of kicking some dough at 300 people as opposed to 35,000 people.

Load More Comments
Slashdot Login

Need an Account?

Forgot your password?
or Connect with...

Don't worry, we never post anything without your permission.

Submission Text Formatting Tips

We support a small subset of HTML, namely these tags:

  • b
  • i
  • p
  • br
  • a
  • ol
  • ul
  • li
  • dl
  • dt
  • dd
  • em
  • strong
  • tt
  • blockquote
  • div
  • quote
  • ecode

"ecode" can be used for code snippets, for example:

<ecode>    while(1) { do_something(); } </ecode>