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Cloud Gaming Service OnLive Unofficially On Linux

Soulskill posted more than 2 years ago | from the penguins-in-the-clouds dept.

Cloud 206

An anonymous reader writes "Through some clever patching, OnLive community members have found a way to run OnLive on Linux using Wine. While the fix isn't perfect, this is a giant leap for Linux users wanting to play the latest games without the need for Windows. Linux users can now play several high quality games like the new Deus Ex with very few performance issues and on lower end hardware."

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206 comments

DRM (3, Insightful)

ge7 (2194648) | more than 2 years ago | (#37312756)

While a kind offer, I have to say no thanks. This kind of service goes against all my beliefs and every rule for Linux and open source. Not only you don't get source code with the game, you don't even get binaries and data! Once you stop paying, you stop playing. If we support development like this there will soon be nothing else. There are many great open source games for Linux, like Battle for Wesnoth, Freeciv and Nethack. Even ID open sources their engines so that people can create many new awesome games. Once OnLine and companies start doing that, don't include abusive DRM and provides source with the game boxes, we can start talking. Until that I rather support indie developers.

Re:DRM (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37312830)

This line of thinking, which sadly a large percentage of Linux users exhibit, is exactly why there are no games on Linux.

Re:DRM (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37312948)

Your mother really should have swallowed..

Re:DRM (1)

LingNoi (1066278) | more than 2 years ago | (#37312986)

This line of thinking, which sadly a large percentage of Linux users exhibit,

Silent majority disagrees with you and the parent.

Re:DRM (5, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37312832)

It's just a game... it's not like operating systems or office apps where vendor lock-in and lack of freedom to modify the code is actually a problem.

Do you also refuse to watch movies because you don't get the files used in production? Or refuse to listen to a CD unless it also comes with sheet music?

Re:DRM (2)

ge7 (2194648) | more than 2 years ago | (#37312892)

No, but I do remember the days when people could host their own dedicated servers with their own rules and admins instead of that one-player-hosts bullshit. I also remember the days when game developers wanted people to make great mods for their games. Now that has mostly gone away. I'm glad there's still games like Red Orchestra 2 that have that old spirit. But where do you think it goes if the games are fully ran and only streamed to your computer?

Re:DRM (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37313446)

I also remember the days when game developers wanted people to make great mods for their games.

Allowing for modding and dedicated game servers ads _extra_ work on the developer. Earlier the supposed benefit was free marketing and community goodwill.

Most game developers have realized that the tiny percentage of people interested in mods have no real impact on game sales for large AAA titles. Like most businesses game studios operate on a stonrg cost benefit model. You show them that a hundred thousand gamers will only buy their game if they are able to mod it and believe you me, we'll see every studio adding mod support.

But where do you think it goes if the games are fully ran and only streamed to your computer?

Why do you think that all gamers should value the same things that you do? I personally don't care if the game is streamed (assuming that eventually, the performance acceptable). If anything I'm tired of buying games that end up being crappy. I'd rather pay a small monthly fee that gives me access to a large game library that I can pick and choose what to play. Netflix for games would do wonders for the gaming industry.

Re:DRM (4, Interesting)

syousef (465911) | more than 2 years ago | (#37313042)

It's just a game... it's not like operating systems or office apps where vendor lock-in and lack of freedom to modify the code is actually a problem.

Tell that to someone who dedicated spare time over 18 months to creating a new aircraft in MS Flight Sim only to have the franchise killed off for the promise of some X-box Windows live experience that may never come to fruition.

Open source matters for everything including gaming.

Re:DRM (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37313354)

X-Plane is where it's at these days.

And, it runs on Linux.

Re:DRM (1)

arth1 (260657) | more than 2 years ago | (#37313450)

And, it runs on Linux.

Technically true, but not on the latest cutting edge distros due to library incompatibilities, and not on pure 64-bit systems, where you need to install an insane amount of 32-bit libraries to get it to run - it would have been nice if they had recompiled it as 64-bit too. This is more of an issue in Linux than in Windows, because Windows comes with the 32-bit Wow64 by default, while most 64-bit linux distros are 64-bit only unless you install all the libraries needed to run 32-bit programs.

Re:DRM (2)

Gadget_Guy (627405) | more than 2 years ago | (#37313484)

Tell that to someone who dedicated spare time over 18 months to creating a new aircraft in MS Flight Sim only to have the franchise killed off for the promise of some X-box Windows live experience that may never come to fruition.

For every game that you can list where you have the opportunity to spend 18 months developing something, there are hundreds of games where you do not. You just play them until you get to the end and then stop.

Besides, does MS Flight Simulator X no longer run? If it does still run, then your 18 months of work can still be used. If that is not good enough, then it has already been pointed out that there is an open source flight sim that you can use, although it appears to have problems running on some systems. It looks like being open source will not fix all your problems.

Re:DRM (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37312862)

Even for people who don't care about the source, shoving games into a SaaS model is simply screwing consumers. This model only really serves publishers because they realise that client-side DRM doesn't work. The only plus that consumers get is that they don't have to have a high end machine to play games which isn't really much of a problem these days in PC-land as it use to be. Also, now the requirements are shifted to have a decent internet connection, anything over 100ms latency is going to have a noticeable impact and forget about wireless or lines with higher then average packet loss, also a shame if you don't have an internet connection with you when you want to play your game or you're based internationally or your ISP (Like some countries in the world) has bandwidth quotas. I could go on and on, the benefit is minor to the consumer but significant to the publisher. Now you're games get to have their own killswitches, forget about mods (Don't give me shit about cheaters, if people designed games properly they wouldn't trust the client in the first place), forget about resale and have fun playing your games when you kill your subscription since you can't because that's how any service operates. Don't buy into it, games should be products not services excluding centralized multi player components.

Re:DRM (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37312918)

Cry more.

If people didn't think SaaS gaming was worthwhile, they wouldn't pay for it. YOU disagree, therefore YOU don't pay for it. There's no reason to force your decision on everybody else.

Requiring a decent internet connection is not a big deal. If you can't get a decent connection then switch providers or move out of the sticks.

Nobody gives a shit about mods. If I want to play a different game, I'll buy a different game.

But the main point is, nobody is forcing you to play these games. Don't like it? Don't buy it. It's that simple.

Re:DRM (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37313014)

Right, because telling people the problems about the technology and saying that people shouldn't buy it based on these problems is bad? Last I checked, that was called an opinion.

Re:DRM (1)

node 3 (115640) | more than 2 years ago | (#37313614)

Right, because telling people the problems about the technology and saying that people shouldn't buy it based on these problems is bad? Last I checked, that was called an opinion.

Except that's not what the OP was doing. He was trying to act like his opinion was relevant to everyone.

"Even for people who don't care about the source, shoving games into a SaaS model is simply screwing consumers."

In typical nerd fashion, he wasn't content to give his own opinion, but he has to somehow make it out to be the opinion that *everyone* should have.

Re:DRM (1)

0ld_d0g (923931) | more than 2 years ago | (#37313456)

Whats funny here is under the guise of "why don't you let people do what they want" you're critising him for having an opinion not aligned with yours. :P

Re:DRM (1)

cheekyjohnson (1873388) | more than 2 years ago | (#37313488)

Nobody gives a shit about mods.

What makes you think that? Even if they still buy the games that do not allow for mods, that does not mean that they do not care about mods at all.

Re:DRM (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37313066)

$900 PC investment + $50 game purchase

... vs ...

$0 PC investment + $50 game purchase (?) + $10 / m OnLive subscription (?)

Yeah... the consumers are getting royally fucked here.

Re:DRM (1)

justforgetme (1814588) | more than 2 years ago | (#37313204)

Well, the hardware manufacturers are. But you can attribute this to evolution I guess.

The only problem I see with SaaS is that it is locking you in quite seriously. I mean, once you get invested in any SaaS offering you don't really have a way out. Same goes for onLive. If you can't keep up with paying the subscription you end up with nothing at all, even though you have actually paid the purchase prive of a game, let alone the fact that you can't get bargain prices for older games (second hand phenomenon).

Re:DRM (2)

hairyfeet (841228) | more than 2 years ago | (#37313242)

Hello time traveler from 96, let me tell you about 9/11 and fukushima. In reality land one can get a Barebone for $200 [tigerdirect.com] follow the little pictures or the nice little video where they walk you through putting it together (I swear they hold your hand so much now a grandma could do it) and add a $100 copy of Win 7 HP along with a nice cheap mid range game card [tigerdirect.com] and voila! Gaming PC for $380. Or if you don't want to DIY you can just pick up a prebuilt for $550 [tigerdirect.com] that is plug and play, or you can just go to any mom&pop shop and hire a guy like me that will put together any design your little heart desires.

Anybody that pays $900 for a gaming PC has a very tiny penis and is trying to make up for it with an ePeen. That or they are one of these idiots that think they have to do everything on a laptop, even if they don't actually go anywhere with the damned thing so are just spending a shitload of money on a really compact desktop with higher priced shittier parts.

As for TFA...do they have purple ponies and She Ra in candyland where OnLive lives? because I would like a ride. in case they haven't gotten the memo the greedy bastard ISPs are going to caps which kinda kills their magical service deader than Dixie. hell in my area neither the cable nor DSL has moved an inch or upgraded shit in damned near a decade, and that is with a huge college right in the middle of town. That would cut into profits you know!

It doesn't matter we already paid to the tune of 200 billion [pbs.org] for nationwide broadband and all we got was a nice picture of Goatse from the CEOs who pocketed the cash or spent it on coke and hookers, or that in areas like mine (and large chunks of the country) that only have a monopoly or duopoly we are being royally ass raped on prices as it is (in my area it is now up to $75 for 2Mbps cable or $135 for the bundle with TV and phone) because they have to show Wall Street they can make iMoney and keep those profits rolling don't ya know?

OnLive trying to get this service off the ground now would be like offering a car for the masses that gets 5 MPG. The era of unlimited broadband, at least in the states, is coming to an end, it is like 8 tracks and muscle cars a thing of the past. Sadly I've seen the future and it is teeny caps and $1.50 per Gb if you go over, which means just one gaming session could cost you more than just going out and buying the game if you go over your cap.

Re:DRM (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37313336)

$550 (minus LCD) which won't handle BF3 at standard settings. You're living 1+ years in the past. It easily costs $700 (minus LCD, peripherals) to build a PC today which will play late-2011/early-2012 games at high settings.

i5 2400/2500 & a 560 ti is basically minimum specs for BF3 @ high (not maximum).

Re:DRM (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37313586)

$550 - weak gaming rig
$150-200 - 19-24" typical LCD
$60-100 - cheap speakers/headphones
$50 - basic amount for extra accessories
$80 - shipping/tax on all of the above
---
total: $890 - $980

Average person's budget is around $300-450 for a personal laptop. You're over-budget by about $500.

And many games will make that rig cry in fear. I dare you to load up ARMA2 on such a machine. It would play console titles (like BC2) but not real PC games.

Re:DRM (3, Insightful)

flimflammer (956759) | more than 2 years ago | (#37313714)

Holy crap, do you really think a $380 "gaming" PC is going to run current games at an even remotely decent quality? And that $550 prebuilt machine is equally silly. You will not be playing current generation games at a decent speed or decent quality on it.

I really want some of what you're smoking.

Re:DRM (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37313862)

In reality land one can get a Barebone for $200 [tigerdirect.com] follow the little pictures or the nice little video where they walk you through putting it together (I swear they hold your hand so much now a grandma could do it) ...

CPU: 3.1GHz dual-core; will struggle with modern games, won't play new games
Fan: noise will keep you awake at night (18.5dB at idle, prob 22dB)
DVD: customer will request bluray support
Mem: overpriced for this bundle (1.5 vdimm, 9-9-9-24 timings)
Case: 0 USB3 ports
PSU: 400W rated; prob 250-300W continuous draw, 400W maximum; limited overcurrent protection; won't power a dedicated GPU; no surge protection; liable to explode
M/B: no USB3 support, only 100Mbit LAN

I suppose you get what you pay for: crap.

Re:DRM (1)

DRBivens (148931) | more than 2 years ago | (#37313254)

$900 PC investment + $50 game purchase

... vs ...

$0 PC investment + $50 game purchase (?) + $10 / m OnLive subscription (?)

Yeah... the consumers are getting royally fucked here.

Gee, where can I get one of those $0 PCs? ;-)

So, what you're really saying is:

$50 game purchase

... vs ...

$50 game purchase (?) + $10/mo OnLive subscription (?)

Yeah, I figured as much...

Re:DRM (1)

KingAlanI (1270538) | more than 2 years ago | (#37313356)

I interpreted that as the _extra_ amount a high-powered gaming rig would cost, whereas presumably OnLive games would run on a 'regular' system.

[not sure if the $900 number is specifically accurate in that regard, but you get the point.]

One of the things I like about playing older or online games is that I don't need to have a gaming rig

Re:DRM (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37313444)

$0 PC is the cheap PC you and a billion other individuals purchased for reasons other than to play games. $0 is effectively the sunk cost, $900 is the future cost (for the majority of internet users).

Re:DRM (1)

Macthorpe (960048) | more than 2 years ago | (#37313830)

I have a place locally that sells a decent gaming PC for about $700. How long is that going to last you? 3, maybe 4 years until games outstrip it? So put that down to $175 per year, which is about $15 a month.

So, now your equation looks like this:

PC: $15 a month + $50 per game, and you get to keep what you buy
OnLive: $10 a month + $50 per game, and your purchases evaporate when you quit

I think I'll pay the extra $5 a month, thanks very much. I do think consumers are getting slightly screwed when they're paying only a little under what they'd pay to keep their purchase for something that is entirely fictional.

Re:DRM (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37313964)

$700 pays for a fairly powerful PC. But next-generation games will push it to its limits and beyond. Will it play... Mass Effect 3? Absolutely. Skyrim? Peformance doubtful. BF3? At low or medium. I give it a life expectancy of 1.5 or 2 years. Spending an additional $200 would add considerable lifespan.

My guess at the $700 in parts: i3 2100, Radeon 6850, P67 board, 500W above-avg PSU, 50-dollar case, 8GB RAM, 1TB HDD, 22" LCD.

Re:DRM (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37312866)

Battle for Wesnoth: 2003, Freeciv: 1996, Nethack: 1987. Sounds like when Mac enthusiasts used to point to Bolo and Marathon as proof that Mac gaming is a real market.

Re:DRM (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37312870)

Oh get off your high-ass holier-than-though linux horse. Battle for Wesnoth is merely an okay game. I just looked up Freeciv and it looks like Civilization 2, which I was playing, oh, about maybe 12 years ago on a windows 98 machine or something like that? When are you going to wake up and smell the roses that just because something is "free and open source" does not make it great, or even good? I think you've deluded yourself for so long that you truly believe it now. I'm not saying free and open source software is bad or even a bad idea. I think it's a great idea! The truth of the matter is that most (not all!) of the open source community doesn't understand the concepts of "quality" and "usability". For example, I've given OpenOffice more than it's fair share of a try, and after too long and too many frustrations I finally went back to Microsoft Office for the sheer fact that it works right, it does exactly what I want, it runs well, it has tons of excellent features, and it looks nice. Whine all you want, but looks DO count for something!

So quit trying to sound all high and mighty. Linux is so far behind on gaming it isn't even funny. Yes there are some good (some excellent in fact), recent indie games on Linux, but those are very few and very far between. What you're doing is the equivalent to me claiming my rotary dial phone that I built and wired all by myself is better than your fancy-shmancy android phone because, well, I built it myself and the plans are there for anyone to do it themselves too! Delude yourself all you want, but the fact remains that quality is important, and people don't mind paying for quality. That's kinda the point of the proverbial triangle of "Cheap, Fast, Good, pick two" (although with Linux it's often "pick one").

Have a nice evening sir or madam! Thank you for finally making me accidentally live out an xkcd comic: http://xkcd.com/386/ .

Re:DRM (2)

Squiddie (1942230) | more than 2 years ago | (#37312874)

Same here, it's just using software as a service, which is evil, in and of itself. It's the same reason why I use LibreOffice, when I could use Google docs, and it's the same reason that I don't use "cloud" services.

Re:DRM (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37312896)

Same here, it's just using software as a service, which is evil, in and of itself. It's the same reason why I use LibreOffice, when I could use Google docs, and it's the same reason that I don't use "cloud" services.

There are many cloud services that are open source and are a service.

Re:DRM (2)

Squiddie (1942230) | more than 2 years ago | (#37312980)

And it's irrelevant, since the end result is the same: control is taken from the user and given to another entity. It's just a bad way to do things if you care about controlling the software that you use. Open source or not SaaS is not a good thing, and it's probably even worse than just running proprietary software. Hell, I run a couple of proprietary programs because there is no other alternative, but I'll be damned before I run my software on another's machine.

Re:DRM (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37313070)

Goddamn, some of you nitwits are deluded. Never stop your Ludditic hilarity.

Re:DRM (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37313352)

Luddite? Are you retarded? SaaS is a re-implementation of an idea from the 70s, where one paid for CPU time. Count on your fingers and see how long ago the 70s were, and then try to understand why this futuristic idea isn't new, and isn't a good idea. I'm sure as hell not happy with the idea of having to pay out every month for something that I used to pay for just once.

Re:DRM (1)

Hylandr (813770) | more than 2 years ago | (#37313384)

Just because it's a new way of doing things, doesn't mean it's smart.

There's a difference to being a Luddite and carefully evaluating long term availability of your data. That's just common sense saying; "My data is available to engineers I don't know, and cannot screen", "Availability of my data depends on reliable and cost effective internet access", "Availability of my data requires the service I am storing my data to remain in business, and also have a reliable internet connection". Try pricing out fast internet access with redundancy to insure 100% up-time. Remember that you have to rotate that hardware when it reaches end of life, or be running a Unix variant and have even more redundancy.

Or I could use readily available software installed on the local machine and save documents to a server, thumb drive, CDROM, or a variety of other means. Redundancy is handled by having more computers with the same hardware, and software versions.

- Dan.

Re:DRM (1)

isama (1537121) | more than 2 years ago | (#37313738)

But then you are still dependent on someone else. I prefer to host all my software on my own metal, so I have the control over my own data. I know this isn't possible for everyone but the only way I like SaaS is SaaStM, Software as a Service to Myself.

Re:DRM (1, Insightful)

Jinzo (955633) | more than 2 years ago | (#37312880)

Your line of thinking about beliefs and bullshit like that is one the main reasons the developers don't make triple AAA releases on Linux. You free software hippies all act like hermits. You talk about being open and yet act so closed at the same time.

Re:DRM (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37312916)

I am user copb.phoenix here on /. ~ public terminal and no private browsing ;)

Admittedly, it feels like a paradox, doesn't it? "Be more open!" and "Linux is profitable!" doesn't seem to see eye to eye. I am not going to waste time pointing you at Richard Stallman's views on that, but they basically say "service the software" rather than "the software is the service".

Getting back to something more relevant, DRM is an ethical issue that you need to pull apart from the people talking about how evil it is (much like you'd pull the argument for legalizing pot apart from a pothead if you wanted to come to objective conclusions)... The bottom line is that DRM does indeed have a place, but that it should be a deterrent - not an end all, be all solution.

I cannot stress this enough, and especially events lately like SPORE (even paying customers applied the cracks to remove the DRM), the PSN being downed (I recall Ubisoft again being a problem there), and legitimate users being punished and treated like criminals time and time again when the anti-piracy misfires (Windows, especially when you upgrade your hardware regularly). There's also something to be said about companies using a combination of DRM and secretive hardware (oh no, more Stallman creeping in ;) ) to merit selling hardware that can be matched at about half the price with the nearest competitor's operating system (That is, Apple being twice the same of a Windows machine in terms of absolute power; at least OSX is based on BSD and gets benefits there... But not US$1000 worth of benefits).

I'll leave it at that and let the community flame/appreciate what I have to say about it.

Re:DRM (1)

bersl2 (689221) | more than 2 years ago | (#37313194)

triple AAA

lol

But seriously, that's bullshit, and you know it.

Dinosaurs who make so-called "AAA titles" don't make Linux games because it costs too much money, one way or another. Management at such places don't want to spend money if they aren't guaranteed a return, which only says how much the bottom line drives everything they do anyway, and good riddance.

Larger companies not yet swallowed by conglomerates have senior devs who may consider Linux and just might have the clout to pull it off, but they can't afford (time, money, energy: take your pick(s)) to pull it off. It's hard to hit a target which moves so differently from commercial software. Heaven forbid trying to get something upstream—a policy which has merits, just not to commercial game creators.

Does "AAA"/"triple-A" even mean anything? I want someone to come along and start saying that they're a quad-A developer working on quad-A games.

Re:DRM (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37313258)

Triple A is actually a pretty good game... but you folks already knew that.
http://triplea.sourceforge.net/mywiki

Hipsters (1)

KingAlanI (1270538) | more than 2 years ago | (#37313404)

Hipsters seem kind of the same way - a zealous obsession with "indie" culture that oddly doesn't seem all that independent-thinking.
(my signature refers to music-specific pragmatism, but I mean that more generally.)

Re:DRM (1)

gmuslera (3436) | more than 2 years ago | (#37312946)

See it from the other point of view. People that will pay for that games anyway, but now could choose the operating system they will run.

Anyway, this is about freedom. That don't ensure to be right, just to be able to choose. Giving more options don't take away the "right" ones, and people that think different from you can pick whatever they prefer, not just what you think they should. And if they choose to be lemmings and

Re:DRM (0)

LingNoi (1066278) | more than 2 years ago | (#37313004)

There are many great open source games for Linux, like Battle for Wesnoth, Freeciv and Nethack.

These are not great open source games. Out of all the awesome games that are open source you had to mention crappy 2d games that have been in development for more then a decade. Way to ruin your own point.

Re:DRM (1)

Nutria (679911) | more than 2 years ago | (#37313128)

What's that whooshing noise that just blew over your head?

Re:DRM (1)

LingNoi (1066278) | more than 2 years ago | (#37313366)

I don't know, maybe you not not understanding the concept of "woosh"? Or perhaps the fact that you disagree but have nothing to come back with but this?

This goes beyond DRM (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37313034)

It's about cloud gaming - and "gaming" is not restricted only to "GAME"

Think about this as cloud interactive many-to-many fullblown online connect.

Re:DRM (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37313098)

Nethack, I think I had that on my Debian GNU/Linux install in 1998 along with XBill and Xsoldier. Now that was the heyday of Linux Gaming! I also had Myth 2 from Loki games. :)

Re:DRM (1)

apharmdq (219181) | more than 2 years ago | (#37313196)

The original poster has a good point. However, I don't necessarily have an issue with closed source game releases for Linux, provided they don't have any sort of DRM involved. There's nothing wrong with closed source software (provided there aren't any ridiculous software patents involved), and having that software available for Linux gives the user the choice of buying it, or skipping it in favor of an open source solution. But that choice is important, as it provides the impetus for people using other platforms to migrate over to Linux.

But, I will admit that as much as I dislike OnLive, it's good that Linux users have the choice to use it if they wish, just like they have the choice to support closed source games.

Re:DRM (1)

Dunbal (464142) | more than 2 years ago | (#37313332)

Until that I rather support indie developers.

They all provide the source code do they? Not all independent developers choose the GPL, but since we're talking about your support, how much money have you sent this year to the authors of GPLed source code that you run? Or do you support it by downloading it and using it only?

Great example of the stupidity of humanity. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37313442)

> This kind of service goes against all my beliefs and every rule for Linux and open source. Not only you don't get source code with the game, you don't even get binaries and data! Once you stop paying, you stop playing. If we support development like this there will soon be nothing else.

Yes. Imagine if they do this with movies! You go into a room, you stare at a screen (you can't even take your own screen in!) if you blink, you can't get back those moments, you have no freedom to pause or rewind _and when you've watched it you have no more rights to rewatch it for the fee you've paid!_. You don't even get rights to the script! How dare they! You can't take the movie, and reedit it! IT GOES AGAINST ALL MY BELIEFS. HEY EVERYONE I READ SOMEWHERE ON THE INTERNET THAT OPEN SOURCE AND SOURCE AND BELIEFS I WANT EVERYONE TO KNOW I READ THIS SO I AM SAYING IT DESPITE BEING A CLUELESS MORON.

If they ever put movies in a room with such restrictive rules, there would be a revolt! Also, what about theatre, can you imagine not being able to stand up and direct the play, YOU'VE PAID! And it should have been FREE and you should be able to edit the script as they are acting! WHAT DRIVEL!

I can imagine onlive taking this one step further - using PHYSICAL BARRIERS, by placing games in BOXES, in dark, prison like rooms, filled with flashing lights to disorient you, then forcing you to put MONEY into the game, and when YOU DIE, it is like YOU DIE IN REAL LIFE, because you have to put more MONEY IN! YOU DON'T EVEN GET THE SOURCE

PEOPLE HELLO I AM SAYING YOU DON'T EVEN GET THE SOURCE CAN YOU HEAR MY ARGUMENT OVER THE SOUND OF ME PARROTING RANDOM THINGS??

> While a kind offer, I have to say no thanks. This kind of service goes against all my beliefs and every rule for Linux and open source. Not only you don't get source code with the game, you don't even get binaries and data! Once you stop paying, you stop playing. If we support development like this there will soon be nothing else. There are many great open source games for Linux, like Battle for Wesnoth, Freeciv and Nethack. Even ID open sources their engines so that people can create many new awesome games. Once OnLine and companies start doing that, don't include abusive DRM and provides source with the game boxes, we can start talking. Until that I rather support indie developers.

What is stopping you playing any game by any labelled developer you like via this technology? HOW you PAY for it is ONE thing, and the technology that puts the image on the screen IS ANOTHER THING, you are GETTING IT ALL CONFUSED.

Re:DRM (4, Insightful)

geminidomino (614729) | more than 2 years ago | (#37313508)

There are many great open source games for Linux, like Battle for Wesnoth, Freeciv and Nethack

Wesnoth and Freeciv are all right, at best. Unless of course, you don't like Turn-based or Real-time strategy games. And Nethack? Come on. The game predates Donkey Kong, FFS. You might as well tout the umpteen billion 'Tetris' clones and flash games.

Don't get me wrong. Linux is a great OS for getting real work done and even for day-to-day PC use, but gaming? No way.

I'm with you on the abusive DRM. I loved Torchlight and salivated over the idea of a new Deus Ex game, but I don't and won't install Steam, so I couldn't buy them. But expecting games to be free and open source, you might as well quit gaming altogether, since you're letting idealism set the bar higher than reality will ever reasonably reach.

Re:DRM (1)

lucidlyTwisted (2371896) | more than 2 years ago | (#37313732)

A minor point (and I expect to get modded into oblivion) but the games you mention are "free software", not just "open source" and this is what we should be supporting. Bloody good they are too. "open source" and "free software", whilst are often related, are different beasts; open source can still be non-free due to licensing restrictions (by "free" I mean as in speech, not as in beer).
As for running "on Linux", I rather doubt that. I can't see a kernel being able to do much with the code, it will require an operating system. It may run on GNU/Linux. The "GNU" part is important as without it, the Linux kernel would be nothing (and GNU would be unusable...). The main-line Linux kernel is not 100% free software nor is it even 100% open source (although you can get LinuxLibre, if that is your desire).

Flame on.

I've got a problem (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37312822)

Is my left nipple supposed to be bigger than other two?

I'm worried! :(

Re:I've got a problem (1)

0ld_d0g (923931) | more than 2 years ago | (#37313472)

I'm worried for you too ! How long do you have to come up with a 3 nippled superhero costume? :-P

Neat... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37312858)

But that's a long way to go just so you don't have to install windows..

Pirate that crap already. keep it around on a hd just to make things easier for crap like this.

Re:Neat... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37312930)

But that's a long way to go just so you don't have to install windows..

The fix is a patch for WINE that will more likely than not be included in the next build. At that point it'll be as simple to install as it is on Windows.

um, ok, but whatever (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37312876)

I like linux, I like gaming, and you can do gaming on linux, be it with wine or some games that are made for linux (too).

However, onlive will eat lots of bandwidth, will be slow, making you unable to play against other people except ones on onlive too.
For singleplayer games, being realistic, it would probably be 100ms-200ms just for your game, combined with about 200ms for my own reaction time, sometimes more sometimes less, I am getting close to half a second of before I can do anything.
Never mind that I usually play singleplayer games because my internet is going bad. It seems that you would only be able to play against other onlive gamers, because if you have another server, which you go first to onlive and then continue to that server, you will easily get 400-500ms lag. on their own servers, you may potentially end up with 200ms, which is on the verge of being acceptable, then again, thats no mod support, no nothing really.

Re:um, ok, but whatever (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37312932)

Have you tried it? Honestly, to the people that have tried it, I accept their complaints, but when people like you go around claiming to get "400-500ms" lag it's quite obvious that you are either making things up or have yet to even try it.

Re:um, ok, but whatever (1)

LingNoi (1066278) | more than 2 years ago | (#37313018)

or don't live in an area where OnLive has installed their servers locally... Yes, everyone is a lier because it works for you. Brilliant logic at work there AC.

Re:um, ok, but whatever (1)

flimflammer (956759) | more than 2 years ago | (#37313730)

The argument goes both ways, man.

Seems the world is black and white to a majority of people. It either works perfectly or doesn't work at all. Both sides push their views as gospel.

Very few performance issues? (4, Informative)

Sycraft-fu (314770) | more than 2 years ago | (#37312902)

Well I suppose if you ignore:

1) Low resolution/detail. Onlive isn't streaming you a 25mbps 1080p AVCHD signal. They stream a low bitrate 720p signal. What this means is that not only are you dealing with a lower resolution but fine detail gets lost. That's how video compression works: Algorithms are used to simplify things which results in the loss of detail. The more you compress, the more you lose. So you aren't getting the full experience of a "high end system" like they want to pretend. You get something that is mid-low end at best.

2) Large amounts of interface lag. Since all the rendering is done remotely, there is lag on everything, even mouse cursor movements. The amount of lag is cumulative, so not only the lag from your monitor and mouse as you always get, but network as well. Even if you live real near a datacenter, it is going to be non-trivial and any further and it could be rather major. You can learn to adjust, to an extent, but it is amazing how much nicer a no-lag interface feels. If you have a monitor with, say, 30ms of lag, you won't notice it, it is below human perception. But add that to a 60ms network and encoding lag and you will notice.

3) It is 100% network dependent. Your Internet goes out? No games. Have a bandwidth cap? This uses heavily towards that. Someone else downloading something? You can get stuttering and dropouts. You take any problem you've ever had with streaming video and then add to the fact that there is no buffer and that's what you've got.

Now of course this is on top of the fact that you don't get to have the games. They are all "sold" on the service meaning if Onlive ever goes under, you are SOL. It isn't even something like with a DRM or download solution where you could crack it, or they could let you download before they go down for good, Onlive goes down, you are done.

Also it isn't as though you are "running" the games on Linux. You are just streaming the video to Linux. They are running on the Onlive servers.

Really, if you wish to play games a much better idea is to just get yourself a console, or mid-low end graphics card. Pick up a $80-100 graphics card and you'll get quality as good or better than what Onlive pulls, with none of the problems.

It is a service that really doesn't make any sense. Maybe back in the day when you had to have high end hardware to play games but these days not only are consoles a major option, but you don't need much computer to play games. You take a reasonable desktop computer, like a Core 2 and 2+GB of RAM, and toss in a reasonable video card and you can play what you want.

Much better idea than using Onlive.

Re:Very few performance issues? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37313144)

I don't really buy into complaining about the graphics on a system where the best game you can run is solitaire. I won't be spending a penny on Onlive, but I like that there are options out there.

Remember, we're talking about Linux (which I run) where the best looking game you can run is something like Warsow. With this I might be able to run something like Mass Effect or whatever on a system (my super old laptop) that can barely handle Youtube videos. It's a nice way to be able to play a few decent games without having to plunk down a ton of cash.

Re:Very few performance issues? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37313218)

Spot on with the Mass Effect example. That game had higher system requirements (and worse graphics) than ME2, because the third-party PC console port was incredibly unoptimized.

Re:Very few performance issues? (1)

krisbrowne42 (549049) | more than 2 years ago | (#37313306)

I do not agree that the service doesn't make sense. If one has a Mac, for example, this service suddenly opens up dozens of games which the developers would not have released as native any time in the near future. If you have something like a Macbook Air, or any device with a smaller storage space, this alleviates having to load and remove games when you want to play them. It leaves your space for games which you want to dedicate to, without having to compromise on what you want to play Right Now. Network issues resolve pretty easily.... As service popularity rises, adding more gear, bandwidth, and optimization becomes a lot easier. As for "buying" games, their PlayPack service, at $10 a month for unlimited play of 80+ games, seems like an easy sell for a casual dabblers like me, especially compared to buying PC games where you cannot easily resell them when you've moved on.

Re:Very few performance issues? (3, Informative)

jewelie (752077) | more than 2 years ago | (#37313412)

Lust for reference, you have actually tried it haven't you?

My experience was different. I gave a few demo games a go on a wee lil netbook. Worked a treat. I was very impressed with the graphics quality and lack of lag.

I was ready to slag it off, but it actually worked well. If I could afford it, I'd happily subscribe - cheaper than maintaining a big gaming PC.

Re:Very few performance issues? (1)

0ld_d0g (923931) | more than 2 years ago | (#37313560)

While the problems you mention exist at present, they are minor problems that can be fairly easily solved in the future. OnLive might be trying to make a proof of concept type thing to get some investment money.

w.r.t resolution .. - You are limiting yourself to standard movie/video compression. There is no reason that they can't develop special compression techniques to preserve details specific to games that get trampled by traditional compression (esp. Text). A simple technique would be to combine multiple streams at differing bit-rates. 3D Models, HUD at a high bitrate, and the scene at a lower bitrate. Hell maybe in the future game enginie renderers could have this built in. One cool thing that would be possible then is using an extremely high resolution MSAA or MLAA & AF render output as the source for compression. Most gamers cannot afford cards that can play every single game with at 1920x1080 with everything turned to max making this a visual treat. The lag can be managed by having multiple data centers plug directly into major ISP backbones. I've played counter strike for years with ~80ms lag which while sucky for certain scenarios (mainly sniping) wasn't all that bad.

Re:Very few performance issues? (1)

thegarbz (1787294) | more than 2 years ago | (#37313808)

they are minor problems that can be fairly easily solved in the future.

I like the optimism, but this kind of problem is not something minor that is fairly easily solved. Solving the types of problems mentioned above is award winning genius type stuff.

The basic problem is transmitting more information faster down a restricted pipe. People have been working on these issues for 20 years. Maybe when we one day all have FTTH internet connections we'll have solved this from a technological point of view, but the issues are very bloody complex in software. If you want to squeeze out extra performance you're talking re-writing game engines, compression systems, and even established network protocols.

Good luck.

"Several" games (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37312958)

Linux users can now play several high quality games

Hahaha. I'll just be over here, playing ALL the high quality games available on Windows.... because I'm too busy not fucking with a Windows compatibility layer just so I can say I'm running Windows apps without actually having to install Windows.

Re:"Several" games (1)

LingNoi (1066278) | more than 2 years ago | (#37313030)

Well if this works then you only have to get the OnLive app working to play all the windows games. No messing around in wine needed. ; )

Now there's no reason to port games natively (1)

wizardforce (1005805) | more than 2 years ago | (#37312966)

So basically this is the future of gaming. You own nothing, you just rent and there is absolutely no reason to put any work into porting games or at least making them compatible with WINE so long as Onlive or its successors technically work. There is no single player because Onlive is essentially a form of always on DRM. Their servers go down, no gaming for you. At least with WINE there is the possibility of eventually playing a game offline with or without some outside server being involved.

Re:Now there's no reason to port games natively (1)

LingNoi (1066278) | more than 2 years ago | (#37313040)

I have mixed feelings myself.

On the plus. Most of these games I just play once and am done with it. Linux compatibility would be amazing; if you OnLive client works, every game in OnLive works. The negatives are like you said, always on DRM, extra monthly fee, etc.

I can see this being beneficial to linux gamers but personally OnLive is too far from me and I prefer to play my games natively.

Re:Now there's no reason to port games natively (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37313142)

The future of some PC game genres maybe. How does OnLive handle multiplayer shooters? Latency would be extremely bad unless OnLive does local player matchmaking... or if games introduced OnLive P2P support.

For consoles, everything you wrote is already true of them.

Re:Now there's no reason to port games natively (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37313176)

And there's your flaw, Onlive will never work.
It's physically impossible for it to work properly without input lag, which DESTROYS the gaming experience.

A valiant effort, but that doesn't mean it is still good.

Re:Now there's no reason to port games natively (2)

snookums (48954) | more than 2 years ago | (#37313192)

It's probably the future for a few types of games, and will be popular with a segment of the market, but I'd say at the extreme low and high end it won't be popular.

Hand-held, mobile gaming isn't going to have the bandwidth, nor the always-online capability (I want to play Angry Birds on the subway).

At the other end, so long as home hardware (console and PC) can render better content faster than the network can stream good-quality video there will be a market for high-def gaming.

Then there's the extremely latency-sensitive games, which I can't see ever working. Traditional game engines can deal with network latency by calculating collisions and other things client-side, but they can't handle the interface lag that you're going to get with this type of system. Building out infrastructure to get good latency to all markets would be terribly expensive.

Re:Now there's no reason to port games natively (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37313666)

Yeah... something like watching content online on netflix.. what a stupid thing.. I bet nobody does that !!

News Flash (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37313046)

News flash, another windows application was hacked to work with Wine! This is NOT Linux!

Steam (a similar content deliver system) is constantly being updated which will break wine compatibility. Each fix doesn't deserve front page news.

On the contrary, I'll have to disagree with the complains of the usefulness of the service. Its not entirely different than licensing content through Netflix, where you never really own the physical media.

I've used Steam for years and it works great (on Windows, OK in Wine). Lets call this what it is... another Windows app updated to silver status in the winehq database.

Lets resurrect this title again when OnLive gets a native Linux client [onliveinformer.com] .

-Tres

Cloud = For Suckers (4, Insightful)

syousef (465911) | more than 2 years ago | (#37313050)

Everytime you see something marketed as 'Cloud' based or 'Cloud' anything just mentally remove the word cloud from the product and add "For Suckers (TM)". You'll save yourself a lot of fuss, hassle and confusion.

Re:Cloud = For Suckers (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37313088)

Also, Linux = For Suckers. I mean.. gaming on linux? What's next? Square manholes?

Re:Cloud = For Suckers (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37313130)

That's correct. Cloud makes my sky gloomy!

Re:Cloud = For Suckers (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37313296)

I have already re-purposed one of those word-replacing Greasemonkey scripts [userscripts.org] to do exactly that a long time ago.

But restrict it to tech sites. Otherwise you end up reading e-mails from your girlfriend (via web-mail) about being "on for suckers nine". ;)

Re:Cloud = For Suckers (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37313698)

My private cloud disagrees with you.

This is just stupid (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37313068)

Yeah I know there are a thousand posts like this, but when things don't work on platforms they're designed t (Windows Live I'm looking at you) what the fuck reason do companies have to keep doing this?

For those unfamiliar with the service . . . (5, Interesting)

Kunedog (1033226) | more than 2 years ago | (#37313224)

. . . imagine if the Ubisoft always-on DRM were an inherent, unremoveable aspect of the game system rather than just something tacked on to a few individual games after the fact, such that Ubisoft couldn't even begrudgingly neuter it in a patch. Well, Onlive is even worse than that would be.

The game doesn't even run remotely. All you get is streaming video/audio and all the lag you'd expect (including controller lag), which is a recipe for disaster in North America.

Let's say you're lucky enough to have a 30mb/s connection. Why would you want to use it to transfer your game's video instead of, uh, a DVI cable, which is capable of 4 Gb/s? The people who developed DVI apparently understood that that 1920 x 1200 pixels w/ 24 bits/pixels @ 60Hz results in bandwidth well over 3 Gb/s. The people who developed Onlive seem very, very confused (at best).

Some people consider IPS monitors unsuitable for games requiring fast reflexes (i.e. FPSes) due to their double-digit response times. Internet latency is often worse and certainly more unpredictable than LCD monitor response time, and with Onlive it applies to audio and keyboard/controller/etc input too.

Those of us who know anything about bandwidth and compression and (especially) latency can see the enormous technical obstacles facing a service like this, and Onlive has never done anything to explain how they intend to solve them. Instead, they've done everything they can to lock out independent reviewers with NDAs and closed demonstrations. A friend of mine described it as the gaming equivalent of the perpetual motion scam, and IMO that's spot on (except that Onlive would still have the draconian DRM issues even if it worked perfectly)..

BTW, you pay a monthly fee for the service and then you STILL have to "buy" the games (which of course become useless if your subscription lapses, giving them another leash to choke you with). I'm not kidding.

Onlive appears designed from the ground up to benefit the game publishers and fuck the customers, exactly what you'd expect from any DRM system.

Re:For those unfamiliar with the service . . . (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37313292)

This is pretty much it. But that won't stop the unwashed masses from emptying their wallets.

Re:For those unfamiliar with the service . . . (1)

Dunbal (464142) | more than 2 years ago | (#37313344)

a 30mb/s connection. Why would you want to use it to transfer your game's video instead of, uh, a DVI cable

Or better yet, instead of downloading a torrent of the game in question...

Re:For those unfamiliar with the service . . . (1)

pescadero (1074454) | more than 2 years ago | (#37313422)

Those of us who know anything about bandwidth and compression and (especially) latency can see the enormous technical obstacles facing a service like this, and Onlive has never done anything to explain how they intend to solve them. Instead, they've done everything they can to lock out independent reviewers with NDAs and closed demonstrations. A friend of mine described it as the gaming equivalent of the perpetual motion scam, and IMO that's spot on (except that Onlive would still have the draconian DRM issues even if it worked perfectly)..

Are you a time traveller from 2 years ago, or is this comment copy-pasted? Anyone (in the US) can try Onlive for free now, there's no more NDAs or closed demonstrations or whatever. Just shut up and go try it. It works fine for many people (including myself), it depends on your network connection of course.

With a good connection this would be terrific (1)

guises (2423402) | more than 2 years ago | (#37313370)

I'm seeing a lot of negativity in the comments so far, but with a low latency connection this would be terrific for strategy games or anything really that didn't require lightening reflexes. Reminder: the OnLive client is basically just a way to stream video, the games are all rendered on the servers, so if the client works then every game that OnLive offers would be available this way. No more booting into Windows to play King's Bounty. My own experience with OnLive was disappointingly unresponsive, but I've got my fingers crossed hard that that was simply my poor connection and not an insurmountable problem.

So why the hate for OnLive, where the equivalent service for movies and TV shows, Netflix, gets tons o' love? In addition to OnLive's all-you-can-eat service with a monthly fee, they also offer a BS option to purchase a lifetime subscription to individual games. This is, obviously, ridiculous. So rather than wasting our energy complaining about it, we ignore that part and recognize the positive for what it is.

Re:With a good connection this would be terrific (1)

vadim_t (324782) | more than 2 years ago | (#37313778)

So why the hate for OnLive, where the equivalent service for movies and TV shows, Netflix, gets tons o' love?

Netflix doesn't seem to be in danger of moving all movie watching online. You can still go buy the movie. OnLive though seems like a very possible future: games that will never be available in any other form than through OnLive.

In the future, it seems, you never own anything. You only rent and passively consume it, and aren't allowed to touch anything the maker doesn't want you to. When they decide you've played enough, they cut off access.

Nope, I don't like it, and don't plan to contribute a cent to such a thing.

Re:With a good connection this would be terrific (2)

ledow (319597) | more than 2 years ago | (#37313780)

"with a low latency connection"

That's why. Basically, there is no such thing at the moment, especially in certain countries, and OnLive's techniques make the problem worse.

Rather than the display in front of me drawing the results of a (slightly) delayed and INCREDIBLY TINY message from elsewhere, OnLive has to receive your local controller data, draw the results, compress the output in realtime and then ship that image back to you using a relatively-high-bandwidth image.

That doubles latency you would expect from an online game (and even online games can be laggy, don't forget) and defeats a lot of things like client-side prediction (because the "client" is actually OnLive's datacenter, NOT you - you're just a remote viewer) or worse - my upload dies a death when a large download is in progress and this would pretty much kill my broadband connection.

Basically, you're VNC'ing into a games console somewhere else on the planet. And have you seen the quality of the compression they use? You basically lose most of the image of the game, especially on anything fast-moving.

Add to that all the problems with such online services - the games go away the second you stop paying, the games cost as much as normal, you're limited in the choice and configuration of games, bandwidth limits / costs etc. - and you have a substandard service.

In some European countries, it would end up costing you a LOT more than you think just to play a game you could get on Steam or from the local shop (in terms of time, effort, money and inconvenience) - you'd barely be able to play the damn thing before you got kicked off your ISP or put onto a "high-usage" tariff/QoS which would make continuing to play it impossible.

And all for an undemanding strategy game or two? Sure, if you could run the really high performance games at top-whack in perfect quality, the idea would work. But basically the games it works best on are the ones you wouldn't want to go through the hassle / expense to play and even the most basic laptop would handle it.

OnLive is the Internet cafe of the modern day - by the time you actually have enough people that know what it is and how it works, everyone has the capability to do it themselves for the same price by just buying their own computer / broadband.

Internet cafes died a death in my country because this was true - they only survive in countries where owning a computer / broadband connection is out of the reach of the common user. This will be true for OnLive - it will only really be used by people who can't afford a PC because of the local economy. Everyone else will just buy a PC and do it themselves because the costs and technical hassle of OnLive just don't make up for having to run your own, personal, general-purpose computer anyway.

To be honest, I'm shocked that this service still gets press at all. It should have collapsed under its own weight years ago. I can only assume they have a very good marketing team and are hoping to capitalise VERY quickly before their users start figuring it out.

Pricing Model (2)

bradfordcp (910727) | more than 2 years ago | (#37313792)

A lot of the comments on here are pointing out that OnLive is a subscription service. This is not the only pricing plan they have available. Looking at their documentation on "Getting Games in the OnLive Game Service" [onlive.com] you will notice their are multiple avenues to purchase a game.

The subscription service they offer is for a collection of ~80 titles. For most newer titles you purchase a pass to play the game. This allows access to the game for a timed interval (think multiple days like renting) or unlimited play. That is a one-time purchase just like if you purchased the title off of Steam or in a retail store. Does the full pass require a subscription? Nope. Please take a look at the documentation and pricing model before making your claims.

Re:Pricing Model (1)

ledow (319597) | more than 2 years ago | (#37313810)

And the "full pass" costs exactly the same as buying the game on Steam / in the store and owning it forever, on as many computers as you like, and being able to play it offline, etc.

That's not really a "good" thing. Even at the same price, the service is substandard - you don't get the full effect of the game (latency, moving image compression, etc.) and end up paying more for your broadband because of it (in most countries that have bandwidth limits, etc.). A PC is a one-off cost, and you have to have SOMETHING to play even OnLive on even if it's just a client, and once paid you have no ongoing costs. Buy the game you want, for the same price, and stick it on that PC and play it forever. It beats OnLive in terms of performance, quality, etc. and requires virtually zero bandwidth.

Additionally, you're no reliant on a 3rd-party to keep playing the game (unless you've bought something with hideous DRM).

OnLive isn't a solution to any problem that I know of.

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