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Kevin Mitnick Answers

timothy posted more than 2 years ago | from the buy-one-mitnick-get-one-free dept.

Security 161

Last week, you asked Kevin Mitnick questions about his past, his thoughts on ethics and disclosure, and his computer set-up. He's graciously responded; read on for his answers. (No dice on the computer set-up, though.) Thanks, Kevin.Do you own a Guy Fawkes Mask?
by blair1q

Do you own a Guy Fawkes mask, or have an opinion of Anonymous' activities?

Anon & Lulzsec
by zero0ne

What are your opinions on the actions of groups like Lulzsec & Anon? Do you feel that they will, in the end, expand freedom on the net or just help government tighten the noose on Internet restrictions?

Kevin Mitnick: Sorry, I do not own a Guy Fawkes mask.

I don't think you can look at Anonymous as a single collective group. There appears to be many factions of it. Some are out there performing hacktivist activities that are being pursued with the true desire of keeping information free and holding our leaders accountable for their actions. Performing civil disobedience through illegal activities is probably not the preferred method, but I can understand what motivates these individuals.

As far as Lulzsec and other groups under the Anonymous banner that are just doing it for the "lulz," it reminds me of the prankster activities that many hackers have been involved in the past. This is part of the culture. Many of the attacks performed by these groups were going after the low-hanging fruit, and those vulnerabilities should have never been open to compromise. We trust these companies with our personal information. It is their responsibility to secure that data to the best of their ability. However, every time a major hack occurs, we are so focused on the attackers and never on the company that left your private information available to be taken. The media feeds this notion.

I don't think that the actions of groups like Anonymous will have much effect on expanding freedom on the net. Though some of their causes may be worthwhile, when you have groups like Lulzsec that just do it for the "lulz," the government has never understood these types of motivations and move harder to prosecute to make an example. So, the answer to your question is no. I would expect law enforcement would just make it a higher priority to curtail the actions of these kinds of groups.

Do as I do?
by wiedzmin

Do you lead by example, as in encourage hackers to do what you did, so that they can end-up as famous and well-paid security consultants? Or are you more of a "do as I say not as I do" type of role models?

KM: My hacking was always for personal pursuits. I never did it to make money. Naturally, I would try to dissuade anyone involved in legally questionable activities. There are so many opportunities these days to satisfy the challenge of breaking into systems and/or networks without breaking the law.

Though the fact that I am able to work as a professional security consultant and public speaker today is a blessing, the price I had to pay for it was pretty high.

How did you choose your targets?
by Rizimar

When you were hacking and breaking into systems, how did you decide which ones to break into? Was it because of the difficulty/ease of doing it with different security setups? Or was it because of the actual people/corporations/entities behind the servers and what they stood for?

KM: Usually, there was something of personal interest to me. I hacked into companies that developed operating systems to look at the source code. The reason I wanted to look at the source code was to discover security vulnerabilities in the operating system(s) that I could exploit. My goal was to become the best at hacking into any system I desired. To me it was like playing the ultimate video game, but with real world danger and consequences.

Later when I became a fugitive, I compromised cellular phone handset manufacturers to gain access to the handset source code for two reasons: (1) to create invisibility by modifying the firmware in my cellular phone; and (2) for the trophy; the harder the target, the more challenging it was to me.

Hi, Kevin. I'm one of your victims.
by Remus Shepherd

Hi, Kevin. I was told that my credit card information was among the thousands you stole from Netcom, way back in the day. I won't ask you what you did with the credit card info you stole, that might cause problems with self-incrimination. I wouldn't want that, oh no.

So let me ask this: How does it feel to be a 'respected' member of the security community now, after having frightened and hurt so many people back then? How does it feel to have the hacker community regard you as a hero when you've done some of the most amoral and harmful acts in modern computing history? I guess what I'm really asking is, how well do you sleep at night? Honestly.

KM: I did take a copy of the entire Netcom database, which also included the subscriber's credit card information, depending on the subscriber's payment method. I was never interested in the credit card information itself, only the user information associated with it that would allow me to reset passwords of Netcom users. The fact is, I was not the only one with these credit cards numbers. That database had been circulating on the Internet for months. I was merely one of many that had access to this information. This entire story is detailed in my new book — Ghost in the Wires — and once you read it, my objective for this hack will become clearer.

Was your identity ever compromised? Was your personal data ever leaked? If so, it wasn't me! That's because I never profited from my hacking activities, and there was never any disclosure of what I had come across or any of the source code materials that I obtained.

You stated: "You've done some of the most amoral and harmful acts in modern computing history?" You really need to get your facts straight. You sound like the government prosecutor who once claimed I could dial into NORAD and whistle into the phone to launch a nuclear missile. Or like the prosecutors who argued I caused 300 million dollars worth of loss by reading proprietary source code. It was a ridiculous argument.

According to the Securities and Exchange Commission rules, if any of the victim companies in my case suffered a material loss, they are required to report it to their shareholders. Did Motorola, Nokia, Fujitsu, NEC, Sun, Digital, and other public companies report any losses attributable to my conduct to their shareholders? Not at all. So did all the above companies defraud their shareholders by failing to report a loss, or did the Federal prosecutors lie in order to get me a harsh sentence? You work it out.

I paid a heavy price for my activities. I sleep like a baby!

Is it cool any more?
by Hazel Bergeron

You have gone from hacker/cracker to security consultant via quite a difficult route. If you just wanted the money, there would have been far easier ways.

Today, the most well-known kiddies tend to do something high profile but requiring little technical brilliance and move quickly to "legitimate" jobs. The majority of "security consultants" don't really have much technical knowledge at all, being more public relations/ass-covering types.

With this in mind, what advice do you have to people who like to study security for its own sake? Should they keep quiet about what they do, developing an academic career so they can research to their heart's content without commercial pressures?

Or does everyone clever sell out in the end?

KM: First of all, I disagree with your assessment that the majority of security consultants don't really have much technical knowledge. I have working relationships with numerous security people that have substantial technical skills. I encourage others to pursue their passion in security in either the commercial world or in academia depending on their goals. Even in an academic career, your pursuits will be limited, as there will always be a line. For many security professionals, they continue to research security, even on their own time, to keep up with new developments and techniques.

Cybersecurity Companies?
by bigredradio

Kevin, do you suspect any collusion on the part of cybersecurity companies such as Kapersky Labs or Avast! and virus creators? If there were not so many exploits in the wild, would there be a billion-dollar anti-virus industry?

KM: I don't know about Kaspersky but I think it's ludicrous to assert that any anti-virus company would be involved with malware creators. These are large companies and the risk of being involved in this type of unethical behavior is too great.

Responsible Disclosure?
by gcnaddict

Should you find a security vulnerability (either in an open source project, a commercial product, or a company's hosted systems), what procedure would you consider "responsible disclosure" to the parties who are considered owners of the product? I recognize that each of the three cases listed above could vary significantly.

KM: I think you have to notify the developer of the product, so that they may create a solution for the vulnerability. They should be given a reasonable amount of time to correct the situation, and then it should be made public.

NOTE — Kevin clarified with this addition: Note too, I believe the software vendor ought to pay for the vulnerability information as security researchers should be paid for their time.

cybersecurity
by Anonymous

What cybersecurity threats do you see as the most dangerous to the Internet now?

Re:cybersecurity
by zero0ne

What threat do you see as the most dangerous in 2, 5 and 10 years?

KM: Malware is probably the most substantial threat. Not only because it is so prevalent and being crafted better to avoid detection, but also because a large majority of internet users are oblivious to the dangers involved with clicking unknown links, authorizing Java Applets, opening attachments from people they don't know, and are easily fooled by average phishing attacks. People are still the weak link, and even intelligent ones make poor decisions. Case in point, the recent spearfishing attacks on Google and RSA, which proved highly effective.

Looking into the future is difficult as technology progresses so rapidly. In the next few years, as more and more corporations move towards cloud computing, these servers loaded with information are going to be the new playground for hackers. Layers of security need to be applied in any cloud-computing environment to minimize the risk.

With the recent hacks on Certificate Authorities, I would count on SSL becoming obsolete in the future and being replaced with a new, more robust secure standard, since the "web of trust" is no longer a feasible model.

With the proliferation of consumer devices coming onto the market that are internet-ready, I would expect to see more attacks at the heart of these new technologies. New devices, especially those branded by names like Apple, Microsoft, and Google, always tend to draw the attention of hackers from all over the world.

Cyberwar?
by mewsenews

The minor political movement surrounding your incarceration would likely not happen today. Hacking has become a state-sponsored activity, with China attacking Google and America/Israel attacking Iran. Do you think your life would be a lot different if you were born 10 years later?

KM: If you were asking if the circumstances would have been different had my hacking occurred ten years later, then I would say yes. The prosecutors would not have been able to convince the Court that I was a serious National Security threat, which resulted in me being held in solitary confinement for nearly a year, based on ridiculous claim that I could launch a nuclear weapon by whistling into a phone. Also, they would not have been able to claim the damages were the total R&D costs associated with the development of source code, which I merely looked at, without distributing it. I think my sentencing and treatment in the justice system would have been much different, as they would not have been able to exaggerate the harm like the Government did in my case.

Computer Setup?
by Anonymous

What is your computer setup? I mean hardware, OS, software you use to work.

KM: You send me yours along with the IP address, and I'll tell you mine. Good try at information reconnaissance.

SSA
by Anonymous

Has the gal from the Social Security Administration claimed her kiss? if so, was she hot?

KM: No, I don't know if she was hot and she has yet to contact me.

Ham radio license?
by vlm

Are you going to fight to get back your ham radio license or is that all water under the bridge now?

KM: I did fight the FCC and still have my ham radio license. The FCC allowed me to retain my license because they deemed me fully rehabilitated after a long administrative court proceeding.

"Justice ... "
by capnkr

Having experienced "justice" of a rather harsh sort (IMO, & possibly yours, too :) ) given that what you did was relatively inconsequential despite the claims otherwise, do you now do any work towards helping keep the sort of experience you had from happening again to other hackers (note: *not* 'crackers')?

KM: I have, and I do. I don't want to see someone's curiosity or desire to learn how to break into systems land him or her into prison. I remember supporting Dmitry Sklyarov when he was arrested at Defcon for exposing a bug in Adobe's e-books. I remember joining a group of people that were protesting his arrest for alleged DMCA violations in Santa Monica, California a while back.

In the end...
by NabisOne

Was it worth it? Is there an upside to your experiences the last ten years?

KM: I have no regrets in regards to my hacking experiences. I have always had a passion for learning, solving difficult challenges, and satisfying my own curiosity.

However, I do regret the effects that my activities had on my family and the companies that were damaged by my actions. I can't undo the past, and can just move forward to try and help others keep themselves safe from those trying to do them harm.

My recent experiences of the last 10 years have been nothing short of a miracle. One word has changed that for me: authorization! I now get authorization from my clients to test their security controls.

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Washed up (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37376934)

He is a sell out

Re:Washed up (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37377068)

Anyone not living free in Mommy's basement is a sellout. There is nothing wrong with paying the bills.

Re:Washed up (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37377174)

What, he couldn't pay the bills with illegitimately obtained ccs?

The way he profits now with misleading/useless security talks is no different, ok

Re:Washed up (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37377122)

Sell out? OHHHHH YEAH. Big time. Workin' for The Man, sellin' his book...

Re:Washed up (2)

I(rispee_I(reme (310391) | more than 2 years ago | (#37377640)

I saw him on Montel Williams shilling for Lifelock [livedash.com] "identity theft insurance". I know, opiate of the masses, but I just happened to be near an idiot box that was tuned to the show, and Montel's been good for a chuckle since the "MOUNTAIN! GET OUT OF MY WAY!" [youtube.com] days.

Montel hypes him up as the big bogeyman hacker, then the Lifelock guy comes out and says, "Don't worry! I'll protect you! Sign up now and we'll send you a free shredder so Kevin Mitnick can't come and dig your bank info out of your trash can!"

It reminds me of bear-baiting, except this particular bear never seemed to have any real teeth or claws to begin with.

kevin mitnick = hack (0)

MichaelKristopeit419 (2018878) | more than 2 years ago | (#37376954)

slashdot = stagnated

Re:kevin mitnick = hack (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37377108)

Sigh, yes. I was expecting something a little more technical. It's not often that one gets to read an interview from a real hacker. :(

FRIST PSOT (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37376968)

EAT NIGGER PISS

Re:FRIST PSOT (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37377070)

fail

CA's? What 'web of trust'? (5, Informative)

fatphil (181876) | more than 2 years ago | (#37377004)

The CA setup using SSL has never relied on the /web of trust/ model (where you can say how much you trust our neighbours), it's always relied on the /chain of trust/ model (where all trust is inherited).

However, I agree that our CA setup should be clearly moribund now.

Re:CA's? What 'web of trust'? (1)

SanityInAnarchy (655584) | more than 2 years ago | (#37377492)

I'm curious if this was a slip, or if there are also problems with a "web of trust"?

Re:CA's? What 'web of trust'? (1)

bragr (1612015) | more than 2 years ago | (#37377986)

Really? Because the last time I checked, there are different trust flags set for different root certs that are included with browsers.

Re:CA's? What 'web of trust'? (1)

fatphil (181876) | more than 2 years ago | (#37378702)

That might a a little bit of damage limitation in modern broswers, but such settings tell you nothing about how much Comodo trusts Honest Akhmed or vice versa. (Not structly true, it's 100% apparently)

brave new world (4, Interesting)

azalin (67640) | more than 2 years ago | (#37377014)

If you were asking if the circumstances would have been different had my hacking occurred ten years later, then I would say yes. The prosecutors would not have been able to convince the Court that I was a serious National Security threat, which resulted in me being held in solitary confinement for nearly a year, based on ridiculous claim that I could launch a nuclear weapon by whistling into a phone. Also, they would not have been able to claim the damages were the total R&D costs associated with the development of source code, which I merely looked at, without distributing it. I think my sentencing and treatment in the justice system would have been much different, as they would not have been able to exaggerate the harm like the Government did in my case.

They might have used it as an excuse to label him a terrorist though. At least back then they had to work around the law to pull off such shady stuff...

Re:brave new world (1)

tolkienfan (892463) | more than 2 years ago | (#37377968)

Good point! How would you feel about Gitmo, Kevin?

They never did (and never will) understand taking such risks for no remuneration.

Re:brave new world (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37378282)

I find it slightly deluded that, if he did those EXACT same things today, say grabbing T-Mobiles entire customer database and hoping around on the cell network, or hacking into Oracle or equivalent and grabbing some their source, both of these being Corporations first and foremost, that he'd be labeled a terrorist. Why is there a stretch made that 'Corporate security breaches' that happen inside the US can be lumped under the term terrorism when the Government wasn't a target in the scenario? It'd be one thing if it was a foreign national and it happened from abroad, but a US Citizen? I'd honestly like to know why that is the case these days. You'd think that boundaries do play a role here, but the law has been written to really subvert that concept, hasn't it.

"Tighten the noose" (1, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37377040)

Come on, we're all adults here. So let's cut the bullshit and call a spade a spade. Government doesn't "tighten the noose" on human rights (including freedom of speech), nor do they "crack down" or cause "erosion". All of those terms imply that there was something immoral or unjust about what the victims were doing in the first place, and government (the criminal) is merely getting around to dealing with it, business as usual. As if government had more important things to worry about, but now the time has come to "crack down" on what they "should have" cracked down on long ago.

This couldn't be further from the truth, and almost sounds like it came straight out of a propaganda committee. The correct term for what government is doing is oppression. Human rights can NOT be "eroded" or "tightened"; they can be either respected or oppressed. Period.

Re:"Tighten the noose" (0)

MichaelKristopeit420 (2018880) | more than 2 years ago | (#37377380)

way to stand up for your rights, coward.

you're completely pathetic.

Re:"Tighten the noose" (1)

tolkienfan (892463) | more than 2 years ago | (#37377984)

I think you misread gp.

Re:"Tighten the noose" (1)

MichaelKristopeit421 (2018882) | more than 2 years ago | (#37378098)

i think ur mum's face misread gp.

you're an idiot.

cower in my shadow some more behind your chosen fantasy author based pseudonym, feeb.

you're completely pathetic.

What comes after the book deal? (0)

iteyoidar (972700) | more than 2 years ago | (#37377080)

Surely he'll milk his fame for all it's worth. Endorsed mice, keyboards, perhaps a Kevin MitNIC Extr3m3 Networking Card?

Re:What comes after the book deal? (2)

Omnifarious (11933) | more than 2 years ago | (#37377124)

He's been free for a long time, and I haven't seen any of those products. Near as I can tell he's become a relatively well respected security researcher specializing in pen-testing. And given his history, I expect him to be fairly good at that job.

Re:What comes after the book deal? (1)

azalin (67640) | more than 2 years ago | (#37377140)

So what? This guy was sent to prison with completely overrated accusations and paid dearly for his wrongdoings. He has my blessing for using his "fame" in order to make some money.

Re:What comes after the book deal? (1)

Lumpy (12016) | more than 2 years ago | (#37377236)

Ohhh! where can I get a mitnick edition ironkey usb drive?

Re:What comes after the book deal? (4, Funny)

gknoy (899301) | more than 2 years ago | (#37377514)

I think there's probably one lying around near the parking lot where you work. ;)

Re:What comes after the book deal? (1)

pulski (126566) | more than 2 years ago | (#37377286)

You mean the book he wrote almost 10 years ago now? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Art_of_Deception [wikipedia.org]

I imagine he's going to continue on with business as usual.

Sleep like a baby (0, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37377090)

Last night Kevin slept like a baby. He woke up three times, wet himself twice and cried himself back to sleep each time. /rimshot

Well. (1)

LWATCDR (28044) | more than 2 years ago | (#37377096)

It is hard to tell if what Kevin Mitnick did in the past was harmless pranks or not. In his case from these replies he seems to have paid the price and is now acting like a responsible person. I do not think anybody needs to give him a hard time about the past anymore.

Re:Well. (1)

GameboyRMH (1153867) | more than 2 years ago | (#37377428)

I know plenty about what he did and he never did anything really harmful. He basically took information as trophies for his own personal use and has more than paid the price for it. It's the computer equivalent of picking the lock on company offices and looking at/taking pics of the products they were developing to satisfy your own curiosity. Yes it's trespassing and breaking & entering and you could say a violation of privacy. But he didn't cause any destruction or cause any company any real losses.

Without remorse there is no rehabilitation. (0, Flamebait)

Remus Shepherd (32833) | more than 2 years ago | (#37377112)

Huh. I wasn't expecting my question to actually be chosen.

In any event, Kevin shows no remorse for being a criminal, which means he essentially still is one. Time served and a stamp of approval by the white hats doesn't matter; what matters is that a person grows from their experiences and becomes better. I see no evidence that Kevin is a better man than he was.

The people defending him should take note that their hero is a crook. And he always will be in my eyes, until I see some contrition and some remorse for what he's done.

Re:Without remorse there is no rehabilitation. (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37377170)

Indeed, I felt his response to your question was somewhat blazé and indifferent. Bit of a shoulder shrug.

Re:Without remorse there is no rehabilitation. (1)

GameboyRMH (1153867) | more than 2 years ago | (#37377496)

He downloaded a database full of credit card numbers that was floating around on the Internet and was "liberated" by somebody else, is he supposed to feel bad?

Re:Without remorse there is no rehabilitation. (1)

silas_moeckel (234313) | more than 2 years ago | (#37377258)

To be a crook would require that he had a financial gain. His morals do not have to coincide with yours he like many others see information as something that should be open, that people should be able to invent, create and expand on things. He paid his dept to society for violating the law, you can argue whether those laws are moral or just. I think he has found better ways to get at the information he was interested in that coincide with the law.

Re:Without remorse there is no rehabilitation. (1, Insightful)

Frosty Piss (770223) | more than 2 years ago | (#37377376)

To be a crook would require that he had a financial gain.

Nope. The label only requires that he breach of rules or laws for which some governing authority. Which he did. Crook.

Re:Without remorse there is no rehabilitation. (0, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37377684)

God, when did people on slashdot becomes such pussies about following the rules?

Re:Without remorse there is no rehabilitation. (1)

SydShamino (547793) | more than 2 years ago | (#37377704)

So have you. Crook.

Re:Without remorse there is no rehabilitation. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37378352)

Why are you so gay?

Re:Without remorse there is no rehabilitation. (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37377708)

To be a crook would require that he had a financial gain.

Nope. The label only requires that he breach of rules or laws for which some governing authority. Which he did. Crook.

I'm sure you're broken a rule or law from some governing authority somewhere. By your own logic, I suppose that makes you a no-good worthless crook too.

Re:Without remorse there is no rehabilitation. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37378210)

Nope. The label only requires that he breach of rules or laws for which some governing authority. Which he did. Crook.

Yep. Crook is as done something against laws written enforced and he disobeyed. .....

Re:Without remorse there is no rehabilitation. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37377792)

Which is exactly what he said as well, What do you want Remus? Kevin to cry and plead that you forgive him, though he never did anything to compromise you? Quit being dense.

Re:Without remorse there is no rehabilitation. (2)

Raenex (947668) | more than 2 years ago | (#37377970)

he like many others see information as something that should be open

So naive. Check the answer to the question about his "hardware, OS, software you use to work". It's always other people's information that should be free.

Re:Without remorse there is no rehabilitation. (5, Insightful)

Trepidity (597) | more than 2 years ago | (#37377270)

The response didn't seem that unreasonable to me. You accused him of "some of the most amoral and harmful acts in modern computing history", which is absurd, because he didn't really damage much of anything. He's not even particularly notable as a "hacker"; he's more notable for the crazy overreaction than anything else.

Re:Without remorse there is no rehabilitation. (3, Funny)

Shatrat (855151) | more than 2 years ago | (#37377656)

I can't believe he can live with himself after not hurting so many people and not causing so much damage. I hope he burns in hell.

Re:Without remorse there is no rehabilitation. (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37377746)

He is an example set at the dawn of the information age. Back then, computers were nothing short of magical to the average person. That made him some sort of evil mage. The government had to make an example of someone, and it was him. Honestly, we were probably better off with his type, because now we have entire criminal organizations seeking to do us harm, or state sponsors. John Q. Admin can't fight the full resources of a determined government.

Re:Without remorse there is no rehabilitation. (1)

nharmon (97591) | more than 2 years ago | (#37377282)

What specific things did Kevin do that you consider "some of the most amoral and harmful acts in modern computing history"? Because I do not think any of the "attacks" he perpetrated were as harmful than, say, the 15th most destructive computer virus.

Also, I am curious what you would consider an appropriate level of "remorse" for Kevin's crime.

Re:Without remorse there is no rehabilitation. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37377304)

Lighten up, Francis. How long does he have to prostrate himself publicly to satisfy your need to express how hurt you were by something that happened 20+ years ago? The guy spent a year in solitary for cryin out loud and now has a career catching bad guys. I'm not saying he's an angel, but seriously... I'd love to throw everything you've done wrong as a teen in your face over and over again and see how sorry you sound decades later.

Re:Without remorse there is no rehabilitation. (2)

Joehonkie (665142) | more than 2 years ago | (#37377314)

So he adequately answered your question, and you have nothing to do but bitch? What contrition or remorse should he show, since you are unable to show you that he hurt you or any of his other supposed "victims" in any way? He clearly shows remorse for the people he DID hurt (family and some corporations), as well as a clear understanding that the best way to learn this security stuff is in the white hat area.

Re:Without remorse there is no rehabilitation. (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37377326)

Indeed. The little shit couldn't give a flying fuck about collateral damage. He still sees himself as a knight on a noble quest for knowledge and the prosecutors were the bad guys for doing what it took to get a conviction.
He's just one more deluded amoral sociopath. He'll never get it.

Re:Without remorse there is no rehabilitation. (2)

teslafreak (684543) | more than 2 years ago | (#37377330)

He's in a legit line of work now, helping secure companies against the same type of attacks he had used to take your information, and you think he hasn't reformed? Part of your last sentence pretty much sums it up, "And he always will be in my eyes"... There's just no convincing some people, and your hard headed line of thinking isn't really his fault.

Re:Without remorse there is no rehabilitation. (4, Insightful)

Jane Q. Public (1010737) | more than 2 years ago | (#37377354)

First off, you are simply wrong. He does "show remorse". He has clearly and repeatedly stated that he wished he could take back the damage he has done, but cannot. What more do you want? For him to bow down and kiss feet whenever someone mentions his past crimes? Honestly, I don't understand what more you expect him to "show".

Second, there is plenty of evidence that Kevin has changed, you are just refusing to acknowledge it. He has become a highly respected member of a very suspicious industry, and has been now for years.

Just my opinion, but I think you're a nutcase.

Re:Without remorse there is no rehabilitation. (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37377534)

No, that's not remorse. What he said is the equivalent of punching someone in the face and then saying "I'm sorry you got a black eye." Actions have consequences; he is sorry about the consequences but sees nothing wrong with the actions. It's the rest of the world's fault for getting in the way of his fist.

Re:Without remorse there is no rehabilitation. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37377796)

Punching someone in the face is not wrong in itself. Boxers are revered for it.

Re:Without remorse there is no rehabilitation. (1)

Orestesx (629343) | more than 2 years ago | (#37378476)

This coward is right. He unequivocally states that he has no regrets. In his mind, it's the companies' faults for having security holes. It's the governments fault for overstating the effect of his actions. He says now there is little difference between what he does now, and what he did then, with one little difference - "authorization." As if that were a trivial difference.

Re:Without remorse there is no rehabilitation. (3, Insightful)

Enderandrew (866215) | more than 2 years ago | (#37377372)

He was already disproportionally punished, and is now actively working against hackers while discouraging people from breaking the law.

I can't imagine that he should continue to feel guilty because he has paid more than his fair share of punishment.

Re:Without remorse there is no rehabilitation. (0)

Orestesx (629343) | more than 2 years ago | (#37378662)

It's not about the time served. It's about how he views his past activities. The man seems incapable of saying "What I did was wrong." He says the price he had to pay was high. What about the price paid by his victims?

Re:Without remorse there is no rehabilitation. (1)

Bahumat (213955) | more than 2 years ago | (#37377398)

That's nice.

Re:Without remorse there is no rehabilitation. (2)

vadim_t (324782) | more than 2 years ago | (#37377416)

I agree with what he says.

While what he did wasn't the most ethical thing to do, I don't think it in any way qualifies as having done "some of the most amoral and harmful acts in modern computing history" by any measure. You've just got an axe to grind because you were personally affected. If you weren't, you'd probably care much less.

In any event, Kevin shows no remorse for being a criminal, which means he essentially still is one. Time served and a stamp of approval by the white hats doesn't matter; what matters is that a person grows from their experiences and becomes better. I see no evidence that Kevin is a better man than he was.

No. Legally he served his time, and that's it. What you're talking about is morality which has absolutely nothing to do with the law.

The people defending him should take note that their hero is a crook. And he always will be in my eyes, until I see some contrition and some remorse for what he's done.

I don't think he's a hero, nor a much of a villain. He's just some guy that messed with a few things he shouldn't have and paid rather too much for it. He's just one member of a very large list of people.

Re:Without remorse there is no rehabilitation. (1)

Remus Shepherd (32833) | more than 2 years ago | (#37377856)

While what he did wasn't the most ethical thing to do, I don't think it in any way qualifies as having done "some of the most amoral and harmful acts in modern computing history" by any measure. You've just got an axe to grind because you were personally affected. If you weren't, you'd probably care much less.

That's a fair cop. I am absolutely biased about this, and I'm not going to try to pretend otherwise. And my quote about 'some of the most amoral acts' is outrageous hyperbole, I admit it.

But Kevin was a bad guy, and I want him to admit that before I'll believe he's a good guy now.

No. Legally he served his time, and that's it. What you're talking about is morality which has absolutely nothing to do with the law.

What I'm talking about is empathy. He's saying that he broke into computer systems, stole some information and terrorized them, but he didn't make a profit on it so it's ethically okay. That's bullshit. It's amoral. It's a complete lack of empathy, and a telling sign of a sociopath.

I don't think he's a hero, nor a much of a villain. He's just some guy that messed with a few things he shouldn't have and paid rather too much for it. He's just one member of a very large list of people.

Except this one member gets a free Q&A session on Slashdot to promote his new book, and is lauded as a paid speaker at hacker conventions. That's a much shorter list. A good segment of the computer geek community sees this sociopath as a hero, and that is a bad reflection on us.

Re:Without remorse there is no rehabilitation. (1)

vadim_t (324782) | more than 2 years ago | (#37378300)

That's a fair cop. I am absolutely biased about this, and I'm not going to try to pretend otherwise. And my quote about 'some of the most amoral acts' is outrageous hyperbole, I admit it.

Then you should have kept silent. Also, admission of guilt doesn't grant absolution in my eyes, so you admitting it doesn't do much for me.

What I'm talking about is empathy. He's saying that he broke into computer systems, stole some information and terrorized them, but he didn't make a profit on it so it's ethically okay. That's bullshit. It's amoral. It's a complete lack of empathy, and a telling sign of a sociopath.

You're making a mountain out of a molehill, IMO.

IMO you're not much better yourself. He served his time, and is now working on the opposite side. I find that to be enough.

You on the other hand seem to believe that a simple statement of having been wrong has more value than those deeds for some reason, and I don't really have a lot of respect for that kind of thing. Actions speak louder than words for me.

Except this one member gets a free Q&A session on Slashdot to promote his new book, and is lauded as a paid speaker at hacker conventions. That's a much shorter list. A good segment of the computer geek community sees this sociopath as a hero, and that is a bad reflection on us.

IMO you're much closer to a sociopath yourself, given how you think complying with a trivial ritual of "admitting guilt" somehow excuses what you said in this thread and gives you license to keep doing it.

Re:Without remorse there is no rehabilitation. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37377422)

1. Did you actually suffer due to the availability of the Netcom database?
2. If so, how do you know that your suffering was caused by Mitnick?

Assuming he is honest about his use of the database*, I don't see that he should feel remorse for something he didn't do...

* And, given the way he was demonised, I think that's quite possible.

Re:Without remorse there is no rehabilitation. (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37377434)

Um, he showed no remorse for your situation because your situation wasn't his fault and really didn't have anything to do with him. His answer was basically "yeah, I had access to your information, but I didn't do anything with it so blame someone else if something happened to you - I wasn't the only one with access to it".

Re:Without remorse there is no rehabilitation. (2)

GameboyRMH (1153867) | more than 2 years ago | (#37377478)

Did you read the reply at all, or his previous Slashdot Q&A article? He's shown plenty of remorse - a lot more than I would in his shoes to be honest, he didn't cause any real destruction or loss. See my post above [slashdot.org]

Re:Without remorse there is no rehabilitation. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37377738)

I came here to say the same thing. I'm surprised at the immaturity and lack of understanding from a person who is middle-aged... reminds me of an undergrad prof i had in North Dakota. Words are tough, I realize, but put in a couple of extra minutes and try the reading thing.

Re:Without remorse there is no rehabilitation. (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37377552)

You're an ass. I don't know either you or Kevin, but based on the dialog here alone, I'd trust Kevin to do the right thing and you to lock your baby in a closet for crying too much. I sure hope you're not a police officer or in ANY kind of authority-role... wait, you must be a middle-school teacher cause you sound like someone who has been picked on and belittled by hoards of 13-15 year old's... I'd feel sorry for your life if you weren't such an obvious asshole.

Re:Without remorse there is no rehabilitation. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37377620)

And I'd have 100% the opposite reaction. When I read Kevin's response to this question, my thought was "that's pretty self-serving and disingenous.

Another poster put it better - it's just a blase shoulder shrug from someone who doesn't really care about the consequences of his actions to other people. They're anonymous, people he can't see or hear or interact with, so they don't matter. Yeah, that's pretty amoral.

Re:Without remorse there is no rehabilitation. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37377672)

Neither does the state that prosecuted him show any remorse for lying in court. Nor to the companies that made up a number and fraudulently presented that as the material damage done by said hacks.

Remorse rarely leads to reward, so is it any wonder that so few express it?

Re:Without remorse there is no rehabilitation. (1)

KahabutDieDrake (1515139) | more than 2 years ago | (#37377692)

You should take note that the definition of criminal doesn't include anything about remorse. Furthermore, if you can't see the evidence that Kevin is a different person, that is your failing, not anyone else's.

I'm not here to defend Kevin, because contrary to your opinion, he doesn't need defending (or persecuting). He isn't now, and I have seen no evidence that he ever was a crook. A hacker, sure, but that is only a crime because of Luddites like you. Gaining information is not a criminal act. Exploiting it is. If you can't fathom the difference, that's ok. We already knew you had a small mind.

Re:Without remorse there is no rehabilitation. (1)

SydShamino (547793) | more than 2 years ago | (#37377694)

Remorse for *not* distributing your credit card information to others?

Do you expect all the waiters at the local TGI Fridays to also share in this remorse?

Re:Without remorse there is no rehabilitation. (1)

StoneyMahoney (1488261) | more than 2 years ago | (#37377712)

"...their hero is a crook. And he always will be in my eyes... etc"

There's only so much remorse and contrition one individual can show for something. What do you expect? Him to personally come around, apologise and prostrate himself before you, offer to fall on his own sword, buy you a beer and clean out your gutters?

You never claimed to actually have suffered because of the database hack (that someone else did) so I think you need to rethink your ideas because they completely unrealistic and you are way off being a decent human being. And you always will be in my eyes, until I see some contrition and some forgiveness for what he's done.

Re:Without remorse there is no rehabilitation. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37377752)

I agree, I was surprised at the coarseness of Kevin's reply. I assumed after all this he was mature and maybe had a more grown-up attitude about his hacking exploits, but I am surprised that he so vigorously defends what he does. Then after giving you a credit card scare, he suggests reading (buying) his book so he can make another dime.

After reading his responses he comes off like a manchild who is gloating about what he got away with. I peeled what was left of the Free Kevin bumper sticker off my car after reading this interview. What a scumbag.

Re:Without remorse there is no rehabilitation. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37377766)

Don't complain about the answer without looking at the question. You didn't ask any thoughtful questions, you only posted emotionally charged meanderings and loaded questions.

"How does it feel to be a 'respected' member of the security community now, after having frightened and hurt so many people back then? How does it feel to have the hacker community regard you as a hero when you've done some of the most amoral and harmful acts in modern computing history? I guess what I'm really asking is, how well do you sleep at night? Honestly. "

I'm surprised that he even dignified that with an answer. The first step before blind accusations and apology trolling should be verification of the facts surrounding the crime. You haven't research the mass of available documentation surrounding his exploits, especially the Netcom one you're referring too. I can't help but feel pity for him for having to defend himself from people who purport fiction as fact.

What you *should* be taking from this is that companies harvest and trade your personal information, including credit card numbers, all the time. This information is most often very poorly secured and not using basic industry-standard guidelines for data protection. Knowing this, how well do you sleep at night? Honestly.

Re:Without remorse there is no rehabilitation. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37377868)

And speaking of "amoral and harmful acts in modern computing history..."

Take a look at how IBM was able to help the Nazis track, monitor, and optimize the slaughter of civilians in their camps. IBM was able to balance the capture of civilians with their feeding schedule, so that the population of a camp would remain constant. Basically you have an inflow of people, and you try to match the outflow of corpses with it - they key was the feeding schedule. They fed people enough so that they'd die of starvation after about 3 months, which kept the population constant, at least at the camp I was researching.

In any case, accusing a hacker who harvested information (with limited dissemination, if at all, of that information) of "some of the most amoral and harmful acts" clearly shows that your only interested in your own credit card information, and you blindly (or perhaps you're just ignorant) ignore the fact that computing has been used, very effectively, as a tool for death. When should I be expecting my apology?

Re:Without remorse there is no rehabilitation. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37377768)

I consider your web comic to be one of the most amoral and harmful acts in modern computing history. For shame sir, for shame.

Re:Without remorse there is no rehabilitation. (1)

Remus Shepherd (32833) | more than 2 years ago | (#37378708)

Hah! 'Amoral' is an excellent definition for my webcomic. Please, feel free to complain about it in as many venues as you wish!

How much remorse? (2)

KingSkippus (799657) | more than 2 years ago | (#37377940)

He's said he's sorry. He's assured you that he personally didn't directly cause you financial harm. What else do you want him to do?

As other have noted, this "most amoral and harmful acts" thing is lunacy. Were you frightened? Yeah, probably so. But causing you angst isn't the most amoral and harmful act in modern computing history. Draining your bank account and sending you and your family compelling death threats--now that would probably rank on up there. If he really could whistle into a phone and launch a nuclear missile and actually did it, yeah, that would rank on up there.

As it is, though, you come off as needlessly engaging in hyperbole because, as someone else pointed out, you have a personal ax to grind with the guy. I'm not saying that you weren't hurt by this, but certainly not to the level that you're trying to escalate it.

By the way, one thing I see notably absent from your question and your posts is anger at the company and/or companies that stored your information in a manner in which it was vulnerable to Kevin's attacks. While Kevin bears the lion's share of responsibility for the attacks, the companies certainly aren't blameless. This information--names, credit card info, etc.--is information that is foreseeably valuable to hackers, and they should have taken better precautions to secure it. Have you expressed your outrage to Netcom as well, or are you under the impression that they were merely innocent victims like you, helpless against the mean and evil hackers?

Re:How much remorse? (1)

Jiro (131519) | more than 2 years ago | (#37378384)

Since you admit that Kevin bears the lion's share of the responsibility, you should accept that the lion's share of the anger is directed against him for the same reason. It's foolish to say "you should be angry at Netcom" when you yourself admit that Kevin's responsibility is much more than Netcom's.

And he may have assured him that he didn't cause him financial harm, but that's not really true. The victim has to treat any breach as a serious threat and act as though his data could be abused. If the thief, in the end, just throws the data out, the victim still had to act, for his own safety, as if the thief didn't. And any damage suffered by the victim in this process is the fault of the thief.

Re:Without remorse there is no rehabilitation. (1)

equex (747231) | more than 2 years ago | (#37377980)

What on Earth makes people think that locking people up makes them better persons? It only incapacitates them for as long as they are locked up. Also, most people released from prison get a +10 level-up in crime skills from exchanging techniques with fellow inmates. Prisons helps no-one in the long run, except the companies that run them.

Re:Without remorse there is no rehabilitation. (2)

Cabriel (803429) | more than 2 years ago | (#37378064)

You are in the dangerous position of not looking for justice. He committed an act, was punished for it in a way the government thought was appropriate at the time, and now no longer commits the same acts without being granted permission. He cannot still be a criminal if he's not committing criminal acts. What you are looking for is vengeance and instilling punishment for thought crimes. It's time for you to let the past go and move on with your life.

He lets himself off the hook too easily (4, Insightful)

chispito (1870390) | more than 2 years ago | (#37377132)

I really enjoyed his book, but it's clear that if you ask him, he hardly ever hurt anyone. It's hard to believe a lot of what he says, since it comes from someone who achieved most of his goals by nonstop lying.

Expected responses... (2)

Lumpy (12016) | more than 2 years ago | (#37377232)

"If so, it wasn't me! That's because I never profited from my hacking activities, and there was never any disclosure of what I had come across or any of the source code materials that I obtained."

If anyone was expecting honest gritty answers they were nuts.

Honestly, he answered everything exactly the way I expected. Nothing at ALL that will be incriminating in any way, nothing revealing, PC and clean. Tow the line of "I was simply a curious kid that got into trouble! Help your local law enforcement!" response. and honestly after the legal and physical ass-raping they gave him I also would respond the same way.

The united state government gave him a loud and clear message," The constitution is a ruse we have in place to pacify the masses. If we get our hands on you we can do to you anything we want and your lawyers cant do shit about what we do to you." Want an example? let's trout out the ridiculous "whistle launch codes" stunt...

The Government pulled that on him as a clear sample of "we own you and can do what we want to you, so do what we tell you"

OF course all his answers are very PC and very clean. What I want to read is his autobiography he has hidden somewhere to be released upon his death that covers what REALLY happened and names names. I really hope he is writing a detailed and 100% honest book that exposes everything that he is afraid to talk about.

Re:Expected responses... (1)

walkerp1 (523460) | more than 2 years ago | (#37377536)

+1 Insightful Lumpy. The sterile answers are not so much a poor reflection on Kevin's character. No, they are an intelligent and calculated response to legal terrorism. We may delude ourselves and say that we are safer, but it is a poor trade indeed for the liberties that we've given up. It's all fun and games until the system turns on you. What follows is more animalistic than human.

Re:Expected responses... (1)

MartyBorg (1209490) | more than 2 years ago | (#37377764)

Read Cory Doctorow's online book "Little Brother" (http://craphound.com/littlebrother/Cory_Doctorow_-_Little_Brother.htm) and ask yourself if KM went through it in real life.

Re:Expected responses... (1)

JohnnyComeLately (725958) | more than 2 years ago | (#37377598)

Really? Hacking telecom manufacturers to see source code for cell phone firmware is legal, PC and clean? HA! I bet he wishes you were the prosecutor.

Re:Expected responses... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37377632)

Actually, I don't care. I mean... Go write some code. Seriously. You'll see how EASY it is for even a careful person to cause a mistake -- a buffer overflow, unchecked bounds, signed int used where you're expecting only unsigned values. Hell, I find shit like this many times a day. Know what? That doesn't make me a "security expert" -- It makes me a PROGRAMMER -- because I don't try to throw the mistakes in people's faces, I just submit a patch to fix it and move on.

So what? He's good at finding exploits in other people's products. BIG FUCKING DEAL. All that BS about what REALLY happened is just BS. Seriously. It's all a bunch of computer oopses. Sure it takes a bit of skill and perhaps some assembly here and there, but mostly there's nothing "he's afraid to talk about" -- What more do you want to know? Pick up K&R and find out yourself. o_O

Re:Expected responses... (1)

tixxit (1107127) | more than 2 years ago | (#37377750)

He actually does name a lot of names in his book (the majority of names and #s in the book are real, though dated). He also doesn't really hide his dislike for many of the characters in the book.

What is this (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37377302)

You send me yours along with the IP address, and I'll tell you mine. Good try at information reconnaissance.

What's the risk in saying I use an AMD based PC/ATX with 4GiB of RAM running Ubuntu? Or that I use Wireshark to diagnose network issues? Or is he buying into obscurity now?

Re:What is this (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37377358)

He's just being paranoid nerd thinking he's all cool because he can shut down a social engineering tactic. He probably thinks any question asked towards him is a question to get access to his soul or something

Re:What is this (1)

gknoy (899301) | more than 2 years ago | (#37377580)

Given his history, I can't blame him. :)

I'd have loved if he'd said, "I run a quad-core i7 with Plenty of ram. My SSDs are RAIDed, my GPUs fold proteins while I sleep, and I have a NAS big enough to hold virtual machine images of every version of Linux ever made", or if he'd said "I mainly use my Macbook Pro..."

No matter what he said, few would believe him -- he has a reputation that makes us believe that he'd deflect any question about his hardware with obfuscation, and he did. :) It'd have been neat if he'd have given his seal of approval for something, but oh well.

Re:What is this (1)

JRowe47 (2459214) | more than 2 years ago | (#37377482)

If someone bothers with researching where he's located and does a sweep, they can narrow down the potential targets by matching it with his posted profile. I'm pretty sure he's probably got honeypots and a very active defense system set up, but would rather not increase his vulnerability by giving attackers any sort of information whatsoever. Really, it'd be like posting a picture of your house on 4chan. There's no difference in the number of idiots in your immediate vicinity, but if one of them uses the information you let loose, your risk of being annoyed by said idiots increases. Privacy doesn't just happen, you actually have to practice it.

Re:What is this (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37377844)

True, if he is sitting in a starbucks. Otherwise, you are full of crap.

Anyone going to take him up on this? (1)

SanityInAnarchy (655584) | more than 2 years ago | (#37377550)

What is your computer setup? I mean hardware, OS, software you use to work.

KM: You send me yours along with the IP address, and I'll tell you mine. Good try at information reconnaissance.

I have to imagine this would be a good deal, provided you could make yourself reasonably secure and reasonably trust his rehabilitation. I mean, no one cares what my hardware, OS, and software I use to work are, whereas "Hey, Kevin Mitnick uses _____" would probably be of interest to a lot of people.

Re:Anyone going to take him up on this? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37377670)

Actually, I see his answer as a cop out. What earthly reason would he have for knowing this information?
 
Ok, I'll man up and show you I'm better than Mitnick. I use a HP 6005 desktop running WinXP and the apps I use most for my job are MS Office and telnet. Big whoop. I hope no one thinks I let the cat out of the bag or anything.

Re:Anyone going to take him up on this? (2, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37377830)

My IP address is 127.0.0.1, and I run Mac OSX.....

Re:Anyone going to take him up on this? (1)

Teancum (67324) | more than 2 years ago | (#37378024)

His paranoia is justified, however. Can you imagine what somebody would do to say "yeah, I hacked Kevin Mitnick and imaged his computer"?

Security through obscurity can be helpful at times, and I think this is one of them. There is certainly no reason to disclose this kind of information.

Re:Anyone going to take him up on this? (1)

jd (1658) | more than 2 years ago | (#37378714)

I don't interpret it as evasion (although he's obviously free to contradict me on that). 99% of everything written about what he, and other hackers of his era did, talks about Social Engineering, getting people to reveal stuff that they'd normally consider confidential or private. I therefore interpret his answer here as "hey, you've got to think about what you're answering". Either that, or he doesn't want to be seen as endorsing a given solution given all the potential problems that might have. In either case, it wouldn't be hiding the information as much as educating you.

(Yes, it's possible that there's an element of paranoia in there, but again going back to the point that the vast majority of security issues are not technical but social, as he himself notes on the bits on malware and SSLs, I just don't see him being concerned about software that I imagine has been checked by every vulnerability scanner and static code analyzer he can lay his hands on. It's not where the problems tend to be and if he has been that thorough then it's doubtful he's that concerned over the code.)

lol (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37377688)

Okay, let me break into your home, read your personal diary and e-mails on your computer, look through private photos and family albums, browse through your secret box in the closet and sniff your underwear, then leave and say I didn't do anything wrong because I didn't take anything

Re:lol (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37377810)

browse through your secret box in the closet and sniff your underwear

Kinky

What is your computer setup? (4, Interesting)

TheOtherChimeraTwin (697085) | more than 2 years ago | (#37377696)

KM: You send me yours along with the IP address, and I'll tell you mine. Good try at information reconnaissance.

Oh please. The poor fanboy just wanted to have the same setup you are using. From your visit to Atlanta in 2008:

"In his luggage, they found a MacBook Pro, a Dell XPS M1210 laptop, an Asus 900 mini-laptop, three or four hard drives, numerous USB storage devices, some Bluetooth dongles, three iPhones, and four Nokia cell phones (with different SIM cards for different countries).

They also found a lock-picking kit and an HID proximity card spoofer that can be used to snag data stored on physical access cards by swiping it in front of them. The data can then be used to enter locked doors without having to make a forged access card. Mitnick says he used the device in a demonstration about security in his speech in Bogota, but that the customs agents' eyes lit up when they saw it, thinking it was a credit card reader.

(Source: Kevin Mitnick Detained in Atlanta for having computer equipment on flight [cgisecurity.com] )

Re:What is your computer setup? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37378250)

Oh please. The poor fanboy just wanted to have the same setup you are using. From your visit to Atlanta in 2008:

Exactly right. If he wanted to get actionable information he'd use a rubber hose.

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