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Israel To Join CERN As First Non-European Member

samzenpus posted more than 2 years ago | from the join-the-party dept.

Science 351

First time accepted submitter WorldPiece writes "More accurately, first non-European full member. This comes with some opposition from groups pushing to boycott Israel academia in response to the Israeli government's policies. 'It is a vital part of our mission to build bridges between nations. This agreement enriches us scientifically and is an important step in that direction,' CERN's Director General Rolf Heuer, a German physicist, told the signing ceremony."

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351 comments

We are sorry for harboring the Nazis,... (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37433456)

..so we have decided to harbor their heirs.

Re:We are sorry for harboring the Nazis,... (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37433870)

The part that caught me off guard was referring to Israel as a nation. It's an occupying power. This would be the US entering the Arab League after occupying Iraq. At Arab Springs the Arab countries can chant, "USA! USA! USA!" in a good way.

The problems with Slashdot (-1, Troll)

For a Free Internet (1594621) | more than 2 years ago | (#37433464)

Folks, I've been seing a lot of problems on Slashdot lately. Really, they make me sad. We could have a great community here, with all the knowledge and talent that God-fearing American technology experts bring to the table. A real enlightened, holy community. Instead, most of what I see is volgarity, Italinainstic hedonism, and people trating this forumlike it's somekind of sick joke, with gross posts about s-x, butts, and women. When did Slashdot start allowing the Italians and their mental slaves to befoul our christian technological discussion community? Folks, have a heart. Think before you post some stupid joe or "troll." This community here is precious and we need to cherish and defend it against those who would turn it into a stinking cesspool of Italian islamocommunist trollery.

STFU and GTFO (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37433476)

You sir, need to STFU and GTFO. 'Nuff said.

Re:The problems with Slashdot (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37433482)

You might want to consider having your doctor review the current dosage levels of your antipsychotic medication because that last post was just a little weird in the "And after posting several rants on various websites the perpetrator drove his car into the lobby of a McDonalds and opened fire on fleeing patrons while yelling ITALIANS" sort of way.

Re:The problems with Slashdot (-1, Offtopic)

NoNonAlphaCharsHere (2201864) | more than 2 years ago | (#37433800)

Clearly he's been drinking too much fluoridated water and has contaminated his precious bodily fluids. Also, he's probably suffering from multiple subluxations. In his weakened condition, I'm afraid he'll be an easy target for a Mossad or Freemason execution squad.

Re:The problems with Slashdot (0, Offtopic)

Dunbal (464142) | more than 2 years ago | (#37433736)

Instead, most of what I see is volgarity

So there are Russians on slashdot. Big deal - get over it. Also: learn to spell, troll.

Good. (5, Insightful)

msobkow (48369) | more than 2 years ago | (#37433468)

Politics have no business in science.

Re:Good. (1)

PolygamousRanchKid (1290638) | more than 2 years ago | (#37433598)

Unfortunately, many politicians make it their business, to dabble their fingers in science to get it under their control. For the usual motives: money, power, etc.

Re:Good. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37433672)

So it should never be public policy to distribute funds to science projects?

Or develop laws regarding what a scientist can or cannot do?

Or establishing copyright laws on discoveries and techniques?

Re:Good. (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37433692)

So you would gladly cooperate with Nazi-Germany on making the Atombomb because it is just science?

Re:Good. (0)

rainmouse (1784278) | more than 2 years ago | (#37434152)

So you would gladly cooperate with Nazi-Germany on making the Atombomb because it is just science?

Cern are making atom bombs? Damn I mustn't have read TFA as clearly as I had previously thought.

Not good. (0, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37433696)

Yes and no. There are very good reasons for keeping certain scientific results "secret". Even Einstein did that. Handing a criminal and inhumane state like Israel results without a filter in between is irresponsible.

All that aside: What Israel is doing in an institution, which has "European" in its name, is beyond questionable.

Re:Not good. (0, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37433792)

It was game over once they let them into Eurovision Song Contest [wikipedia.org] .

Re:Good. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37433706)

Sure, then I guess you would have no problem if Palestine is admitted as a full member? Or is this a Jewish solidarity thing?

Re:Good. (1)

realityimpaired (1668397) | more than 2 years ago | (#37433890)

Palestine isn't officially recognized as a state right now, and would fall under Israel's admittance. It's internal politics in Israel itself that's keeping Palestine out at this point, not CERN itself.

Let's see what happens after this week's UN vote on whether Palestine should be admitted as a state before we start throwing around statements like yours, yes?

Re:Good. (1)

mangu (126918) | more than 2 years ago | (#37433952)

you would have no problem if Palestine is admitted as a full member?

No problem. [web.cern.ch]

As soon as Palestinian contribution to CERN becomes significant enough.

Re:Good. (2)

timeOday (582209) | more than 2 years ago | (#37433708)

Would you have any problem with Iran joining the European Organization for Nuclear Research? Maybe you wouldn't, but I guarantee Israel would. And I'm not claiming Israel = Iran, just that many would argue a line must be drawn somewhere.

Re:Good. (1)

dotancohen (1015143) | more than 2 years ago | (#37434052)

No, Israel would not oppose to Iran participating in a worldwide nuclear-research body. Iran has very talented nuclear engineers. That would be a terrific project for them.

Oh, I'm Israeli.

Re:Good. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37434114)

If that's really true then Israel wouldn't object to Iran building an indigenous nuclear power program, but they do - and given how Iranian nuclear scientists have been getting killed under mysterious circumstances in a way peculiar to the Mossad, it's even less believable.

Re:Good. (4, Insightful)

TubeSteak (669689) | more than 2 years ago | (#37433750)

Politics have no business in science.

If there's funding involved, there's politics.
 

Re:Good. (2)

bhartman34 (886109) | more than 2 years ago | (#37433802)

Not true at all. Many scientific endeavors have public policy and ethical considerations that very much are matters that should be political. Not everything that can be done in the name of science should be done.

Re:Good. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37433808)

Not just that. Science has no place in politics.

Re:Good. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37434012)

Politics have no business in science.

That's exactly the point.

Re:Good. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37434022)

I'd say the same about Iran's nuclear power program - but given this is /. I'm not sure that would help you grasp the hypocrisy....

Re:Good. (1)

quenda (644621) | more than 2 years ago | (#37434076)

Politics have no business in science.

Heisenberg. 1941. Are you certain?

Re:Good. (3, Insightful)

Hazel Bergeron (2015538) | more than 2 years ago | (#37434158)

Gather round while I sing you of Wernher von Braun [youtube.com]
A man whose allegiance is ruled by expedience
Call him a Nazi, he won't even frown
"Ha, Nazi schmazi," says Wernher von Braun

Don't say that he's hypocritical
Say rather that he's apolitical
"Once the rockets are up, who cares where they come down
That's not my department," says Wernher von Braun

Some have harsh words for this man of renown
But some think our attitude should be one of gratitude
Like the widows and cripples in old London town
Who owe their large pensions to Wernher von Braun

You too may be a big hero
Once you've learned to count backwards to zero
"In German oder English I know how to count down
Und I'm learning Chinese," says Wernher von Braun.

Re:Good. (1)

Jeremiah Cornelius (137) | more than 2 years ago | (#37434196)

"Politics have no business in science."

You forgot to supply the attribution for your citation:
"Signed, Werner Von Braun".

Of course, it rings with more authority, when presented in the original German.

Re:Good. (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37434198)

Lol, I bet you are an undergrad or new grad student. There is so much politics in science it is sickening.

Surprising (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37433472)

I'm surprised the Elders of Zion allowed this to happen.

wait a minute (1)

KingBenny (1301797) | more than 2 years ago | (#37433478)

Isreal is non-european ... it's definitely not african, it's not american, its not australian, and i have a hunch it's non-asian ... did we just discover a new continent ?

Re:wait a minute (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37433488)

Geographically, it's just part of the middle east. Nothing remarkable. Bit of a water-shortage, which I recall they are planning to tackle through a system of pipelines and desalination plants.

Re:wait a minute (2)

Jeremiah Cornelius (137) | more than 2 years ago | (#37434210)

And theft of the Litani.

Re:wait a minute (1)

secretsquirel (805445) | more than 2 years ago | (#37433496)

It's special.

Re:wait a minute (3, Informative)

sourcerror (1718066) | more than 2 years ago | (#37433514)

Israel is actially in West-Asia. Geographically that place was never considered to be a part of Europe. However there are strong cultural ties.

Re:wait a minute (1)

Dunbal (464142) | more than 2 years ago | (#37433760)

Historically it was called "Asia Minor"

Re:wait a minute (1)

sourcerror (1718066) | more than 2 years ago | (#37433814)

No, Asia Minor is where Turkey is.

Re:wait a minute (2)

realityimpaired (1668397) | more than 2 years ago | (#37434054)

Turkey actually straddles Europe and Asia... the line between the two continents goes right through Istanbul.

Re:wait a minute (2, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37433854)

No, the modern day country of Turkey is Asia Minor, because it was previously the Roman Imperial province of Asia and we later decided that there was more to Asia than just Ionia. The part of the Middle East that Rome controlled was called the province of Syria (due to the Assyrians) and it included the modern day countries of Syria, Jordan and Israel. Today we just consider the whole thing Asia, though where it ends is really just drawing line in the sand. For instance, is all of Russia in Asia?

Re:wait a minute (1)

dotancohen (1015143) | more than 2 years ago | (#37434064)

Israel is actially in West-Asia.

Israel lies to the west of the Syrian-African rift. Israel is therefore on the African continent. Even more so then Madagascar for instance. It just doesn't look that way on the map because maps use water for designating boundaries, not continental plates.

Re:wait a minute (2)

rainmouse (1784278) | more than 2 years ago | (#37434174)

It just doesn't look that way on the map because maps use water for designating boundaries, not continental plates.

To be fair, water was discovered a fair while before continental plates.

Re:wait a minute (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37433530)

Israel is neither part of the European continent or the political construct called "Europe".

Israel is part of the middle East... like their good neighbors..

Re:wait a minute (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37433532)

The area of present-day Israel has been considered part of Asia for thousands of years. Both the Jews and the Palestinians originate in Asia, according to Wikipedia respectively from the Fertile Crescent and the area between the Jordan and the Mediterranean. Why then would Israel not be Asian? ISTM having been enslaved in Egypt and som of them having lived in the West or Eastern Europe doesn't change their Asian heritage.

Re:wait a minute (1)

danish94 (2427678) | more than 2 years ago | (#37433562)

By that logic all humans are African. The whole species originated from africa and living all over the world does not change there african heritage.

Re:wait a minute (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37433602)

Eastern Europe is a part of the Western World, sorry. Forty years' interlude of communist occupation won't change that. Or does the European Union now encompass "two worlds"?

Re:wait a minute (1)

Dunbal (464142) | more than 2 years ago | (#37433772)

Eh? Most of the Jews in Israel come from Poland/Germany, about 70 years ago. They didn't kill them all you know.

Re:wait a minute (2)

dskoll (99328) | more than 2 years ago | (#37433830)

Most of the Jews in Israel come from Poland/Germany

That is not true. There are more Sephardim ("Oriental") Jews in Israel than Western.

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel [wikipedia.org] where it says: "Approximately 68% of Israeli Jews are Israeli-born, 22% are immigrants from Europe and the Americas, and 10% are immigrants from Asia and Africa (including the Arab World). Jews who left or fled Arab and Muslim lands and their descendants, known as Mizrahi or Sephardi Jews, constitute approximately 50% of Jewish Israelis."

Re:wait a minute (1)

danish94 (2427678) | more than 2 years ago | (#37433548)

Geographically, It's Asian.

Re:wait a minute (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37433668)

Yes, however it is presently occupied by rich, white Eurasians, and now it's trying to gain legitimacy by joining these organizations in order to make it more difficult to rout out the occupiers. That government has no right to exist except by the force it uses to subjugate the natives. Another remnant of the British Empire which is as powerful as ever, but still slightly less so than the Roman Empire

Re:wait a minute (3, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37433702)

That government has no right to exist except by the force it uses to subjugate the natives.

The same could be said of any government. That's what a government is.

Re:wait a minute (2)

jopsen (885607) | more than 2 years ago | (#37433810)

...presently occupied by rich, white Eurasians...
....has no right to exist except by the force it uses to subjugate the natives...
...Another remnant of the British Empire...

It's funny how that's not so much different from the United States :)

Re:wait a minute (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37433892)

Makes it a bit easier to understand our very close relationship, doesn't it? Brothers in arms...

Re:wait a minute (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37433722)

Since BBC declared that Jews are Arabs (genetically speaking)
 
  http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/sci/tech/742430.stm

Israel sits right in the Middle-East.

Re:wait a minute (1)

Dog-Cow (21281) | more than 2 years ago | (#37433758)

Umm, are you trying to make this sound like news? Jews and Arabs are both semitic. Of course they are related genetically.

Re:wait a minute (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37433578)

Israel is part of the middle east. the middle east is part of asia.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asia

Re:wait a minute (1)

arisvega (1414195) | more than 2 years ago | (#37433884)

it's not american ...

I think that it kind of is.

Re:wait a minute (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37433950)

Yes,
What are continents?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3uBcq1x7P34

Nice tech (1)

Mike Mentalist (544984) | more than 2 years ago | (#37433500)

Don't Israel have quite a considerable amount of tech industries these days? Be nice to get some official input from that.

Re:Nice tech (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37434178)

Yeah, thanks to Israel's technological input we can now guarantee that no Arabs will be able to inhabit areas surrounding CERN installations.

That's about the sum total of Israel's technological objectives.

Did South-Africa ... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37433526)

... joins any major international body in the 80's during their Apartheid ?...
Just wondering what the reaction would have been....
Just like then, I think BDS in a reasonnable mean to push the parties to make peace in the Middle-East...

Re:Did South-Africa ... (5, Insightful)

Sun (104778) | more than 2 years ago | (#37433678)

BDS is one piece of weapon in an arsenal diplomatic warfare. Yes, weapons can be used to push peace, but they are not, generally, considered a "peace device".

BDS is particularly evil for several reasons. The most ironical is that it attempts to collectively punish all Israelis for what Israel is supposedly doing, thus using collective punishment to protest collective punishment. Presumably, this is okay because it's done by "the good guys"(tm).

More to the point, BDS strives to prevent the other side from voicing its opinion to argue whether the acts protested are real, or just products of propaganda and distortion. In that respect, BDS is just another propaganda employed against Israel. Weapons may, in some rare circumstances, bring peace, but propaganda seldom does.

More to the point, however, BDS strives under all that is "Academia". I can sometimes agree that economical sanctions are in order (nothing that Israel has justified, but I can see how others might disagree with that sentiment). I can understand a cultural boycott, though don't see how it ever does any good. An Academic boycott, however, is never justified.

True discourse and exchange of ideas, some of which you might not like, is the cornerstone of academia. Shutting down someone else's voice is never an academic thing to do, least of all for political reasons.

Shachar

Re:Did South-Africa ... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37433782)

Mmmh... Never heard this kind of discourse when we BDS'ed massively South-Africa in the 80's...
In fact, the BDS of SA Apartheid were unanimously supported.

On the plus side, BDS is not about using f-16 to kill Palestinians or suicide-bombers to kill Isrealis...
That's welcome, no ?

Re:Did South-Africa ... (2)

MrHanky (141717) | more than 2 years ago | (#37434180)

Ah, right. BDS is "collective punishment" hence equivalent of Israel keeping the entire Gaza on the brink of collapse. How very perceptive of you.

Re:Did South-Africa ... (2)

dskoll (99328) | more than 2 years ago | (#37433788)

Your question is irrelevant because Israel is not South Africa. It's not even like South Africa. The odious comparison is simply a propaganda point used to demonize Israel.

Re:Did South-Africa ... (0)

NoNonAlphaCharsHere (2201864) | more than 2 years ago | (#37433858)

I'm curious. Does it hurt when your knee jerks like that?

Re:Did South-Africa ... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37433912)

Well, Jimmy Carter, former US president, does make the comparison...
he even wrote a book on this

Re:Did South-Africa ... (1)

mangu (126918) | more than 2 years ago | (#37434028)

The difference between Israel and South Africa in the 1980s is that South Africa limited the rights of their citizens based on race, while minorities in Israel [wikipedia.org] have full civil rights.

Military State (-1, Troll)

arisvega (1414195) | more than 2 years ago | (#37433552)

For a military state such as Israel, it is impressive that every now and then they come up with innovations; not very many, but they do come up with them.

Personally, I think one shouldn't rigidly judge citizens of a state by the macroscopic behavior of their state- just because some of their state officials act as nationalistic fascists with no respect for human life, it doesn't mean that all of the population approves. I think everybody deserves a chance to prove themselves.

Re:Military State (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37433626)

If a country were judged by the behaviour of its fascist leaders, would the western world have so many economical and cultural ties with China?

Re:Military State (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37433658)

For a military state such as Israel, it is impressive that every now and then they come up with innovations; not very many, but they do come up with them.

You do know that Israel has the highest number of patents per capita, right?

Re:Military State (1)

obarel (670863) | more than 2 years ago | (#37433686)

Patents = innovation.
So patenting a linked list with two pointers is a sign of innovation?

http://www.google.com/patents?id=Szh4AAAAEBAJ&printsec=abstract#v=onepage&q&f=false [google.com]

Re:Military State (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37433768)

Agreed, patents isn't a good measure.

Perhaps the nobel prices is a better one. From true Israelis it's not that many [wikipedia.org] . But if you count their foreign supporters it's quite [wikipedia.org] impressive.

Re:Military State (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37433670)

A good chunk of Israeli innovation comes in part because of the military, not in spite of it. Some major private sector industries here build on technological expertise originating with military projects (imaging and radio communications come to mind).

Per capita, Israeli innovation hardly lags, but thanks for the backhanded compliment.

I won't thank you for telling me I deserve a chance, but, hey, I'll admit that you deserve one too. Posting AC because I'm normally just a lurker here...

Re:Military State (1)

lexsird (1208192) | more than 2 years ago | (#37434192)

Military inspired innovations aren't anything new. We are communicating via the Internet which was in part started by a US DoD project. One could argue all technology is military based from the philosophical stand point, but why digress.

What I fail to comprehend, at least feign to fail to comprehend is why not allow Palestinians to be part of the UN. Why? This forces them into a statehood with consequences for their actions. It would force elements like Hamas to conform or frankly to be killed/imprisoned as criminals, instead of being part of some chaotic rogue element that can slink back into the wood work. It would open the door for the UN to put the hammer to unruly elements such as again Hamas because the legitimate leadership of the Palestinians is weak.

Two reasons why I think this is opposed. One it means the US welfare check would diminish or stop altogether if there is UN enforced and supervised peace. War is a profitable thing, we should know, we have more than our fair share of war profiteers here. Our warmongers and your warmongers have been in bed together for a LONG TIME. Now of course this has been necessary due to the nature of how the "homeland" has been returned to, taking it by force has been problematic. I think God knew this and is why he told you guys not to do that, but who's listening to God these days, we sure as hell aren't here, so who are we to complain?

Secondly, the UN is a tricky thing and if you have too many enemies, allowing the Palestinians in could mean trouble if they are just going to be dicks about everything, and rabble rouse with a new forum to exploit. If that is the case, fuck 'em. But if they are earnestly trying to just survive and be peaceful neighbors and not get the shit kicked out of them, it would be great to help them out. Especially if you can bump off those that refuse to evolve and just want to be militant punks about everything, via sanctioned UN actions.

Why bitch about this? It's not antisemitism; we are going broke. And as we are going broke, we are starting to turn into the modern Nazis here. Except instead of putting Jews in concentration camps, it will be minorities, the poor, the disabled, illegal aliens, etc. Multinational corporations have raped the ecology of the American ecology. Frankly put, the foundation of America, the American worker has been reamed in the butt by opportunistic trade policies that have been implemented so that said multinational corporations can exploit super cheap foreign labor and dump the products on our markets.

We are taking a nose dive because this kind of thinking is unsustainable unless we just fully evolve into fascism, and we are goosestepping our way there quickly. Being a friend, I am advising to invest in peace with your neighbors. It would help to disarm the hawks and let us focus on sound economic policies that will make it difficult for us to turn into a full blown fascist war machine which the entire world would just fucking hate. I can understand reaching out to Europe because we seem a bit flaky at the moment. Obama may seem like a punk, but he's got his hands full with keeping the 4th Reich from happening during or after his watch.

Lets face it we have the world problems we have for two reasons. One we will suck dick for oil. We have propped up dickheads to keep the oil flowing and we haven't cared what they do to the populations just as long as the oil has flowed. We have created fat cats who lord over their extremely poor populations and they have come to resent the shit out of our supporting them. We have propagated the hell out of the region with weapons, but who hasn't?

Secondly we have backed you guys unquestioningly. We have gave money and weapons to you for decades now, not giving one shit what you do with it as long as you don't start WW3. Yes, you took the land by force. There was some fucked up shit that has happened to the Palestinians, and that is why they are so burning pissed off. We understand, we though had enough sense to kill off the indigenous people that we pushed aside until they were no longer a threat and we started feeling bad so we kept a few token ones around on reservations. Fucking hypocrites, aren't we? We have the balls then to tell you not to do the same thing, because frankly we are pussies about that pesky WW3 thing. But we are picking off Arab/Muslim/whatever countries one by one though and they haven't figure it out and rallied and drove us out. Our indigenous people weren't smart enough to rally together either, we played them off on each other as well.

Speaking of what I imagine you guys find amusing. You guys get bombed it seemed on a daily basis, and we insist that you keep cool headed about it; yet we get "bombed" ONE DAY and we go batshit over it for a decade now. You guys clean up the debris, bury the dead and go about your business with an impervious attitude of "fuck off, pussy bombers!" We are still bitching about it, and will be for another decade I am sure.

Iran has to be nervous. They seriously need to just kick the old fuckers in charge out and get on with joining the modern world. We are setting on both sides of them, praying they will do something stupid. At least our hawks are. I am hoping we can all work things out and just be peaceful, happy and work on getting to space together. All of us together; there is plenty of room in the universe for all assortments of us humans.

Anyway, my thinking is let the Palestinians to the table, if they act like punks let the whole world kick them in the balls. But what the hell do I know?

Re:Military State (4, Insightful)

dskoll (99328) | more than 2 years ago | (#37433742)

Wow, what a condescending reply.

Israel is not a "military state" in the sense that the military controls politics. It's a pretty dynamic democracy with a highly-diverse set of viewpoints. It also has a very educated labour force and a high number of high-tech companies and startups.

Israel has long been known for innovation. Just google "Israeli Innovation".

Those who propose BDS on the spurious basis of "Israeli Apartheid [sic]" are blind to reality, either out of ignorance or malice. While Israel is not perfect and its Arab citizens do suffer discrimination, it's nowhere near the level of South African Apartheid, and those same Arab citizens have more civil rights in Israel than in any Arab country.

Re:Military State (5, Informative)

paleshadows (1127459) | more than 2 years ago | (#37433820)

For a military state such as Israel, it is impressive that every now and then they come up with innovations; not very many, but they do come up with them.

Funny.

I suggest you take a look at, e.g, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Start-up_Nation [wikipedia.org] . Here's one paragraph (the source is backed by reference):

"How is it that Israel -- a country of 7.1 million people, only sixty years old, surrounded by enemies, in a constant state of war since its founding, with no natural resources -- produces more start-up companies than large, peaceful, and stable nations like Japan, China, India, Korea, Canada, and the United Kingdom?[4] The Economist notes that Israel now has more high-tech start-ups and a larger venture capital industry per capita than any other country in the world."

Or, e.g., browse the list that ranks the top-100 computer science departments in the world [arwu.org] and observe where and how many times the Israeli flag appears in the list. (FYI, Israel has only 6 universities.)

etc. etc.

Re:Military State (1)

Beelzebud (1361137) | more than 2 years ago | (#37433908)

I'm sure it has nothing to do with the billions of dollars that pour in to Israel each year as welfare from the U.S.

Re:Military State (1)

paleshadows (1127459) | more than 2 years ago | (#37434206)

I'm sure it has nothing to do with the billions of dollars that pour in to Israel each year as welfare from the U.S.

You are right. The 3$ billions per year Israel receives from the U.S. is ~1% of Israel's yearly budget. Importantly, most of the U.S. aid comes in the form of military equipment (that is, the actual funds flow directly to the pockets of U.S. military industry). It has nothing to do with start-ups and CS departments.

Re:Military State (0)

arisvega (1414195) | more than 2 years ago | (#37434006)

"How is it that Israel -- a country of 7.1 million people, only sixty years old, surrounded by enemies, in a constant state of war since its founding, with no natural resources -- produces more start-up companies than large, peaceful, and stable nations like Japan, China, India, Korea, Canada, and the United Kingdom?"

With help from the US, and draconian law enforcement?

Do you even think that Israel would exist today without US backup?

Plus, the list you are mentioning (partially) and the concept of a "startup-up company" are economic indexes, and we all know how much they reflect the truth- You are missing the point of my post; so what if you get a "hit" on one of those? That doesn't cast away any dark age veils, and doesn't disentangle politics from research. If anything, it messes them up even more.

Politicians are greedy, and want to have control on everything. Including economy and research. And AFAIK, even more so in Israel, because of the military background of prominent state officials.

Politics are really disappointing business (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37433558)

For advertising their part as being saviors of Jews from the evil fascists, the European left wing parties and their supporters are surprisingly antisemitic, and gravitate towards even more drastic antisemitic movements, such as the European islamists and Palestinian leadership. Outside the Islamic world there aren't many political groups that would have made so much in order to discriminate israeli and the Jews. It's a real surprise to me that this really affects decisions as high and far from political harangue as CERN.

Israel has strong ties by both Europe and western culture, is run by a real democracy supporting free speech and it has high level of scientific expertise, interest in scientific inquiry and capable researchers. Palestinians, on the other hand have none of these, because their leadership doesn't value them. Why the decisions of Israel's membership in CERN should depend on Palestinians' and their supporters opinions, instead of Israel's capabilities?

politics a vital part of the mission? (1)

Artifex (18308) | more than 2 years ago | (#37433614)

"It is a vital part of our mission to build bridges between nations."

I thought CERN was all about science. What's this about building bridges?

Re:politics a vital part of the mission? (5, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37433728)

"It is a vital part of our mission to build bridges between nations."

I thought CERN was all about science. What's this about building bridges?

International co-operation is pretty critical in science, without touching on politics at all. That's one of the great things about conferences. I went to a conference in the US earlier in the year, and met someone doing a PhD in hydrology. After chatting with them, it turned out that as part of their work they had collected a pretty comprehensive set of deep-sea water samples for an area I was interested in. I work on marine microbiology, and my university has no way of collecting deep-sea water samples. After a little discussion and a few polite emails later to her P.I., they kindly gave me pretty hefty aliquots of water from as deep as 5,600m below the sea surface. That stuff has been pretty central to the work in my PhD and like I said, I had no way of getting it on my own.

International co-operation, collaboration and exchanges of ideas and equipment/samples is incredibly important and doesn't have to involve politics one bit.

Re:politics a vital part of the mission? (1)

Dunbal (464142) | more than 2 years ago | (#37433778)

Engineering is not science?

Re:politics a vital part of the mission? (1)

mysidia (191772) | more than 2 years ago | (#37433786)

I thought CERN was all about science. What's this about building bridges?

Building bridges facilitates Science by providing more sources of $$$.

CERN is about science, but even Newton had to eat.

I'm a bit taken aback that they've allowed a non-European country to join, but the United States is still relegated to "Observer status" (E.g. 'Source of $$$, but not allowed to participate or become a full member')

Re:politics a vital part of the mission? (1)

the_other_chewey (1119125) | more than 2 years ago | (#37434044)

I'm a bit taken aback that they've allowed a non-European country to join, but the United States is still relegated to "Observer status" (E.g. 'Source of $$$, but not allowed to participate or become a full member')

Then you'll be glad to know that the US are not a "source of $$$" for CERN:
CERN budget by states [web.cern.ch] [2009 budget, seems to be the newest available].

Yes, goods and services (designing and building stuff) did and do come from the US too, but those
happen with full scientific involvement of several big American universities and research facilities.

I have no idea where you got the idea from that the US don't participate in CERN research,
or are even somehow forbidden to do so.

Re:politics a vital part of the mission? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37433790)

What? Bridge building is a sort of science!

Re:politics a vital part of the mission? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37433812)

CERN is certainly about science, but a key part of its mission was (and is) "let's get together and build this thing so we don't have another World War". Big-picture European politics has always been part of CERN's mission.

Bad (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37433638)

If it is not the academic elite that are to place pressure on Israeli politics, then who? Hit them where it hurts.

Politics IS a science. And science has politics. I wonder how many potential Palestinian scientists have gone undetected, untrained and unfunded?

Re:Bad (4, Informative)

dskoll (99328) | more than 2 years ago | (#37433774)

I wonder how many potential Palestinian scientists have gone undetected, untrained and unfunded?

Probably dozens. Lebanon keeps Palestinians in poverty in refugee camps instead of integrating them into society. There were no universities at all in the West Bank prior to 1967. Hamas spends money on weapons that could be spent on education.

Yes, indeed. Palestinian society, much like the rest of the Arab world, allows a criminal waste of human potential by diverting energy towards a conflict instead of towards building up civil society. That's why most Arab states have a low (and usually declining) human development index and shockingly inefficient economies compared to Israel.

Devoting your energy to conflict and bitterness will destroy you before it destroys your enemy.

Re:Bad (1)

Dunbal (464142) | more than 2 years ago | (#37433794)

No, politics is humanities and only THINKS it's a science. In fact, your statement sums up politics and its self-claimed license to pervert language because of its descent from the school of sophistry pretty well. Politics may claim to belong to science, but science rejects false claims. Therefore go stand in the corner on your own.

Re:Bad (2)

Dog-Cow (21281) | more than 2 years ago | (#37433796)

They've probably blown themselves up so they can get to their 72 virgins already.

Re:Bad (2)

dskoll (99328) | more than 2 years ago | (#37433842)

I wonder how many potential Palestinian scientists have gone undetected, untrained and unfunded?

From TFA: "In a news release on the agreement, CERN said Israel had supported Palestinian students studying and working there, as well as sending mixed Israeli-Palestinian contingents to its summer study programme."

Re:Bad (1)

fuzzyfuzzyfungus (1223518) | more than 2 years ago | (#37433862)

Do you know of any countries where the "academic elite" are the go-to chaps for changing public policy?

Re:Bad (5, Informative)

dotancohen (1015143) | more than 2 years ago | (#37433910)

Politics IS a science. And science has politics. I wonder how many potential Palestinian scientists have gone undetected, untrained and unfunded?

As a student at the Technion, Israel's premier university, I can tell you that Arabs are very disproportionately overrepresented there. That's fine, there is good reason: the Arabs have strong motivation to work hard and push ahead. Despite the huge number of Arabs in Israeli universities, I do not recall a single political or racial event in my time at the Technion. Not one.

what's CERN's geographical goal? (1)

Trepidity (597) | more than 2 years ago | (#37433946)

What's more interesting to me than Israel joining specifically, is the "first non-European member of the European Organization for Nuclear Research". Is Israel simply an exception, or will CERN be moving to less of a European focus in the future? For example, Turkey has applied for membership; will they eventually join? Could other in-the-region-of-Europe states like Egypt join?

Re:what's CERN's geographical goal? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37434140)

I don't think Turkey would count as non-European anyway. It has been present in several pan-European political and economic organisations for decades and has been a candidate for EU membership for years.

Visits (-1, Offtopic)

br00tus (528477) | more than 2 years ago | (#37434038)

Hopefully if the other CERN scientists visit Israel by ship, Israel won't have commandos rappel onto the boat and begin machine-gunning the passengers.

knives (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37434092)

And hopefully the CERN scientists won't be lying in wait with knives and bats to attack.

Seriously, the guns only came out after the "activists" captured and nearly killed several Israelis who were using minimal force.

Re:Visits (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37434150)

Please don't feed the troll.

Surprised it didn't happen sooner (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37434170)

Israel is a science, technology and engineering powerhouse. A little research turned up that Israel ranks fourth in the world in scientific activity as measured by the number of scientific publications per million citizens and that Israel's percentage of the total number of scientific articles published worldwide is almost 10 times higher than its percentage of the world's population. (http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/israel-ranks-fourth-in-the-world-in-scientific-activity-study-finds-1.4034). It's no wonder that CERN would be more than happy to welcome them as a member.
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