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Oracle Removes Java Signatures, Breaking Webstart

timothy posted more than 3 years ago | from the is-this-your-homework-larry dept.

Java 198

sproketboy writes "It seems Oracle has decided in their infinite wisdom to remove digital signatures from the Java projects that they put into the open source community. Of course this breaks any application out there depending on Java Webstart using these libs. Looks like Java3D and JAI are currently affected — probably other APIs are as well. Oh Oracle! What are we supposed to do with you?"

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One Rich Asshole Called Larry Ellison (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#37478416)

Need I say more?

Re:One Rich Asshole Called Larry Ellison (1, Offtopic)

Dareth (47614) | more than 3 years ago | (#37478696)

Yes, what did the "Rich Asshole" call Larry Ellison?

Come one, don't leave us hanging!

And Talked About What? (0, Offtopic)

tepples (727027) | more than 3 years ago | (#37478844)

Who was the rich asshole, and what did they talk about on the phone?

</cmtp> [tvtropes.org]

Die! (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#37478420)

Die Java! Die! Go Oracle! Kill this shitastic language! Once it's dead, the horde of Java "programmers" can go back to being fry cooks like they were before Java was created.

Re:Die! (4, Funny)

Chrisq (894406) | more than 3 years ago | (#37478474)

Die Java! Die! Go Oracle! Kill this shitastic language! Once it's dead, the horde of Java "programmers" can go back to being fry cooks like they were before Java was created.

fry cook! If only .... I was a C++ programmer

Re:Die! (1)

trum4n (982031) | more than 3 years ago | (#37480266)

What landed on your head to make you switch to ....... java?*shutters*

Re:Die! (2)

Chrisq (894406) | more than 3 years ago | (#37480344)

What landed on your head to make you switch to ....... java?*shutters*

If I'm honest it was money. But I don't miss pointers, references, destructors, the pre-processor and many other things in c++

Re:Die! (3, Insightful)

TheRaven64 (641858) | more than 3 years ago | (#37478488)

Sure, just like how all of the crap programmers left the industry when COBOL, and VB6 went out of fashion...

Re:Die! (1)

X10 (186866) | more than 3 years ago | (#37479436)

Is Cobol so bad, compared to Java in the hands of Oracle?

Re:Die! (5, Insightful)

ByOhTek (1181381) | more than 3 years ago | (#37478518)

There are plenty of good Java programmers. Yes there are more crap java programmers. But I can't think of any language for which that ISN'T true.

Re:Die! (2, Interesting)

i_ate_god (899684) | more than 3 years ago | (#37478834)

Python seems to think it isn't true.

Java assumes everyone is a bad programmer.

Re:Die! (1)

Raenex (947668) | more than 3 years ago | (#37479832)

Is that why Python doesn't have advanced concepts like threading? Is that why Python is considered a good teaching language? Do you really think there aren't mediocre Python programmers out there?

Re:Die! (1)

thePowerOfGrayskull (905905) | more than 3 years ago | (#37480312)

Key words: "seems to think". I'd be more curious about how a language can seem to think at all... dancing bears, etc.

Re:Die! (2)

wezelboy (521844) | more than 3 years ago | (#37479202)

INTERCAL.

Re:Die! (1)

Kjella (173770) | more than 3 years ago | (#37479312)

Well, I guess that depends if you define it intra-language or inter-language. When you wield a butcher knife there are good butchers and crap butchers, when you wield a scalpel there are good surgeons and crap surgeons but if they all entered a precision cutting competition we'd see differences. And some languages are like juggling chain saws for no discernible reason. I'd call java quite middle of the road though...

Re:Die! (1)

mfh (56) | more than 3 years ago | (#37478824)

Once it's dead, the horde of Java "programmers" can go back to being fry cooks like they were before Java was created.

What is wrong with being a fry cook? That can be a very demanding and challenging job. Java programmers are more suited for rock-breaking work, tbh. Maybe a job at Starbucks if they are hipster.

Re:Die! (1)

ultranova (717540) | more than 3 years ago | (#37479554)

Once it's dead, the horde of Java "programmers" can go back to being fry cooks like they were before Java was created.

I wonder if this is the real reason why Java gets so much crap. More generally, I wonder if this is the reason why there are so few programming systems that would be easy to use and produce efficient code.

Oracle only said they'd keep it open source (5, Insightful)

Chrisq (894406) | more than 3 years ago | (#37478432)

Oracle only said they'd keep it open source. They never said they'd let you use it.

Proprietary programming languages (2)

lordmetroid (708723) | more than 3 years ago | (#37478434)

Why do we even need corporations to be involved and in control of our programming languages. Is it not time to rid ourselves as programmers from the tyranny of these greedy organizations by simply choosing to not use proprietary programming languages?

Re:Proprietary programming languages (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#37478512)

Java 7 is open source. This issue applies to some libraries. Additionally, anyone can resign those libraries and distribute them. Your argument is invalid, as is the article.

It's a 5 minute job to package the jar yourself and sign it. Anyone downloading a JAR at runtime from a server they do not control deserves what they get.

Self-signed? Big Scary Warning! (2)

tepples (727027) | more than 3 years ago | (#37478880)

It's a 5 minute job to package the jar yourself and sign it.

And a how many minute job to earn money to buy the certificate from a CA to sign your signature?

Re:Self-signed? Big Scary Warning! (1, Troll)

Short Circuit (52384) | more than 3 years ago | (#37479244)

And a how many minute job to earn money to buy the certificate from a CA to sign your signature?

$60, and about an hour of back-and-forth emails in identity verification for a class 2 identity cert [startssl.com] . Surprisingly cheap and easy.

Re:Self-signed? Big Scary Warning! (1)

Chrisq (894406) | more than 3 years ago | (#37479386)

And a how many minute job to earn money to buy the certificate from a CA to sign your signature?

$60, and about an hour of back-and-forth emails in identity verification for a class 2 identity cert [startssl.com] . Surprisingly cheap and easy.

You might not think so if you were a start-up in India.

Re:Self-signed? Big Scary Warning! (2)

tepples (727027) | more than 3 years ago | (#37479434)

Please pardon me for being a noob to code signing. From the linked page:

Before you continue, make sure, that you have at least two recent documents

It mentions both a passport and state ID. In the United States, not a lot of people have a passport because not a lot of people have a need to travel internationally. So most people carry only a state ID such as a driver's license. What second document should people who never leave their home country use?

And what should I do once I've bought the certificate, but I need to push out a security update after it has expired?

Re:Self-signed? Big Scary Warning! (2)

Short Circuit (52384) | more than 3 years ago | (#37480242)

I don't have a current passport, either. Mine expired years ago, even before 9/11.

Ultimately, I wound up sending them pictures of my state ID, birth certificate and cell phone bill. I tried sending two different photo IDs, but they sent me an email asking for a copy of the birth certificate. They're reasonably friendly and will work with you to identify the documents you'd need.

As for security updates...I don't know. It will depend on the context. Just a guess, but I imagine that, if you're using your own certs to verify updates, then push out an update including the new cert, before the old cert expires.

I got the StartSSL certs so I could have non-scary SSL certs for my website. It was only after I got the identity cert that I noticed they talk about certs for code signing. However, that's not something I've messed with.

Re:Self-signed? Big Scary Warning! (1)

TheLink (130905) | more than 3 years ago | (#37479468)

So anyone can sign those java libraries and have them work without problems?

Sounds strange to me. What if someone signs a trojaned libary?

Re:Self-signed? Big Scary Warning! (2)

Short Circuit (52384) | more than 3 years ago | (#37480284)

I don't know about Java and WebStart, but when I go to install or launch a signed-but-untrusted binary (such as something that's fresh out of a browser's download queue), Windows gives me the signer's name and other cert details, and asks me if I want to run code by them.

Cryptographically signing something only tells the end-user *who* it was signed by. You still have to decide whether or not to trust that Who. I expect the implementation details of that are going to be specific to WebStart and the JVM in question. Not my area of expertise.

Re:Self-signed? Big Scary Warning! (2)

Short Circuit (52384) | more than 3 years ago | (#37480348)

TL;DR version of my other reply [slashdot.org] .

So anyone can sign those java libraries

Sure.

and have them work without problems?

Probably not.

Sounds strange to me. What if someone signs a trojaned libary?

Was it someone you chose to trust? Then you're screwed. If it's not someone you chose to trust, then you still have the option of choosing whether or not to trust them before you run the library. In short, do your homework. Or let your package mantainer do it for you; your operating system should already be set up to ensure updates from upstream are trusted, and your package maintainer should be on the ball about being sure *his* upstream is trusted.

Re:Self-signed? Big Scary Warning! (1)

Matt.Battey (1741550) | more than 3 years ago | (#37480486)

Basically, yes. The supposed part is that there's traceability through the CA to the signing party, footsteps if you will to find the trojan originator, and someone to then assign liability to.

Re:Proprietary programming languages (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#37478560)

Yes, it seems you work for a company who's structure is similar to mine.
Where we, the almighty programmers decide what happens.

Re:Proprietary programming languages (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#37478760)

And is it as much of a clusterfuck as my company (which follows that kind of structure) is?

Re:Proprietary programming languages (1)

GameboyRMH (1153867) | more than 3 years ago | (#37479326)

I can't feel bad for the idiots who lock themselves in. It's not like it's any secret or that they didn't have a choice.

Re:Proprietary programming languages (1)

Matt.Battey (1741550) | more than 3 years ago | (#37480546)

The biggest problem is that non-propritary languages have no one selling them to corporate executives, with promises of ubiquitous support and completely reliable offerings, with speedy bug resolution.

And they have to pay for it, otherwise there's no value. Look at Red Hat. Reports today are that they are going gang busters. They're selling something that has it's basis in "free," but they add a service, which I'm sure is very profitable for Red Hat, and puts a value on the software purchase for the "decision makers."

Basically, if you don't have to pay for it, and there isn't someone with a cheesy smile, and a talking list of the day's techno-sales babel, how's a decider to know when he has something of value. I mean with out a measure tape, how's he to compare when golfing at the course with his fraternity brothers.

Security risk...sure. (4, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#37478442)

from FTA:

It's been several years since Oracle (previously Sun) stopped providing support for the open source Java3D projects. It was decided that keeping binaries signed with old Sun signing certificates represented a potential security risk, and because of this, we have removed the old Sun signing certificates for the binaries on download.java.net.

Cause you know...that makes sense.

destroying open source (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#37478446)

Oracle are spies who have signed a secret pact with propriety companies to destroy open Source. Thy bought SUN destroyed many of its products. thy are suing Android in all possible ways(Which makes no sense). now this. Thy are

Re:destroying open source (4, Informative)

Lennie (16154) | more than 3 years ago | (#37478600)

Actually, Oracle might not have bought Sun if they could not sue Android:

" Miguel De Icaza has provided a very interesting insight into the case. His report has been confirmed by James Gosling, known as the father of Java who left Sun right after the merger. Icaza speculates that the potential to monetise on Java by suing Google was pitched by Jonathan Schwartz during Sun's sales talks with Oracle. Oh boy."

http://techcrunch.com/2010/08/13/android-oracle-java-lawsuit/ [techcrunch.com]
http://tirania.org/blog/archive/2010/Aug-13.html [tirania.org]
http://www.osnews.com/story/23684/De_Icaza_Sun_s_Schwartz_Pitched_Google_Lawsuit_to_Oracle [osnews.com]

Re:destroying open source (3, Insightful)

Bill_the_Engineer (772575) | more than 3 years ago | (#37478840)

Miguel De Icaza has provided a very interesting insight into the case.

A proponent of Mono/C# has damning insight on Java... Color me shocked.

Re:destroying open source (0)

Threni (635302) | more than 3 years ago | (#37479116)

Classical ad-hominem. Does the argument have merit? That's all you should care about.

Re:destroying open source (2)

Lennie (16154) | more than 3 years ago | (#37479272)

And this has no merit ?:

"James Gosling, the father of Java who left Sun soon after it was acquired by Oracle, writes on his blog that Oracle was eying the Java patents as part of the Sun acquisition:

Oracle finally filed a patent lawsuit against Google. Not a big surprise. During the integration meetings between Sun and Oracle where we were being grilled about the patent situation between Sun and Google, we could see the Oracle lawyer’s eyes sparkle. Filing patent suits was never in Sun’s genetic code. Alas.

I hope to avoid getting dragged into the fray: they only picked one of my patents (RE38,104) to sue over."

http://techcrunch.com/2010/08/13/android-oracle-java-lawsuit/ [techcrunch.com]
http://nighthacks.com/roller/jag/entry/the_shit_finally_hits_the [nighthacks.com]

Re:destroying open source (1)

asdf7890 (1518587) | more than 3 years ago | (#37479354)

It isn't a damning insight on Java as a language or platform, it is a damning insight how corporate minds work. I have no bout the idea was discussed off the record in several boardrooms but they were either too late, decided they could not afford to take the risk (of failing and being left with a company they didn't want for anything else and a large negative on the books from buying it), or decided the PR would swing too far the wrong way. Or perhaps had a moral objection (not every board is 100% amoral, just most of them).

Re:destroying open source (1)

gtall (79522) | more than 3 years ago | (#37480472)

In a smoke filled conference room, Sun and Oracle are meeting. The officers of Sun are anxious to get on with the transfer of booty to their personal coffers. Oracle asks about Java and how come Sun couldn't monetize it. Sun's lawyers and Mr. Schwartz blink at each other and Mr. Schwartz quickly opines: Oh, we simply are lining up our ducks...there are beeelllions and beeellllions of Google money just waiting for us. Now, if y'all could finishing signing right down there on the dotted line, we'll get on down to the martini bar and celebrate. Tell Eric and Larry we said "hi".

It's Their Culture (4, Insightful)

WrongSizeGlass (838941) | more than 3 years ago | (#37478456)

Oracle is used to dealing with very large corporations. Now that they have their hands on Java, which directly affects many users, web hosts (large and small), etc, etc they just don't know how to handle things. Forcing major changes onto companies that Oracle has by the implementation & licensing balls is one thing, but trying to force major changes onto the real world will only lead to a backlash and the adoption of alternatives to Java.

It will take a little time to untrench Java, but the intertubes won't stand for this type of reckless and disrespectful behavior. A change is a commin'.

Re:It's Their Culture (1)

marcello_dl (667940) | more than 3 years ago | (#37478738)

>they just don't know how to handle things.

Never attribute to malice what can be explained by incompetence. Or so think those who believe the excuses of malicious people.

How comfortable does it feel to know your company database is in the hands of these fine folks.

Re:It's Their Culture (1)

jonbryce (703250) | more than 3 years ago | (#37478992)

Well if it was an Oracle database that I was paying a 6-7 figure sum in support fees per year for, very comfortable, provided my company was big enough to be able to afford it.

A MySQL database, not comfortable at all.

Re:It's Their Culture (1)

gomiam (587421) | more than 3 years ago | (#37479072)

Why would an Oracle DB make you feel safer? MySQL belongs to Oracle [google.es] .

Re:It's Their Culture (2)

asdf7890 (1518587) | more than 3 years ago | (#37479376)

Because, exactly as he states in the message you replied to, that expensive Oracle DB comes with a useful SLA-bound support contract where-as MySQL comes with nothing of the sort.

Re:It's Their Culture (4, Insightful)

ultranova (717540) | more than 3 years ago | (#37478800)

Forcing major changes onto companies that Oracle has by the implementation & licensing balls is one thing, but trying to force major changes onto the real world will only lead to a backlash and the adoption of alternatives to Java.

Are there alternatives to Java? Mandatory bounds checking, garbage collection and all that implies, and inability to break type safety combined with good execution speed are not easy to implement, especially in a multi-platform way.

Re:It's Their Culture (0)

i_ate_god (899684) | more than 3 years ago | (#37478862)

Just because you don't have all these safety nets doesn't mean there aren't alternatives.

Re:It's Their Culture (1)

icebraining (1313345) | more than 3 years ago | (#37479140)

inability to break type safety

They removed casts and NULLs from Java?

By the way, Go and D seem decent alternatives.

Re:It's Their Culture (1)

yacc143 (975862) | more than 3 years ago | (#37479384)

Actually there is Modula-3 too, where quite some of the Java ideas have come from. (Admittingly without a VM and non-C-ish syntax)

Re:It's Their Culture (2)

ultranova (717540) | more than 3 years ago | (#37479830)

They removed casts and NULLs from Java?

Trying to cast an object into an incompatible type results in an exception. Trying to use a null pointer results in an exception. Both exceptions can be caught and handled. They don't leave the program into an undefined state, as they do in C or C++.

Re:It's Their Culture (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#37479260)

Yes, plenty of them. But then again many of them require you to have more skills than a mouth-breathing java weenie.

Re:It's Their Culture (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#37479946)

Did you seriously use the phrases "good execution speed" and "multi-platform" in the same paragraph as "Java"?

Seriously?

What a joke. Java is a performance dog and never delivered on the portability promises. If it dies tomorrow, all the better.

Re:It's Their Culture (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#37479966)

Squeak with COG, much better anyway.

Re:It's Their Culture (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#37479408)

Not only that, after acquisition by Oracle, most competent engineers just leave. The pay is bad, you have to deal with a shitload of non-productive bureaucracy and end up working with mostly incompetent engineers which are more worried avoiding work than actually accomplishing something. There are a few good teams around, but they don't last long. The borg eventually normalizes them.

Probably they don't give a damn... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#37478458)

About freeloaders who don't spend money like gigantic enterprise borgs which is why they make money as opposed to Sun... which is why Sun died, but of course if you ask some idiot like bruce perens the reason sun died he will state is because they didn't open-source everything 10 years earlier... so you just cant win!

Re:Probably they don't give a damn... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#37478532)

Sun died because they were twice cheaper than Oracle for similar services (for example mysql support).

FORK IT! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#37478506)

Fork it, then tell Oracle to fork off.

Re:FORK IT! (3, Insightful)

mswhippingboy (754599) | more than 3 years ago | (#37478690)

Right. Then just wait for the patent infringement suits to start rolling in. You can probably safely fork the language as long as you don't try to run the resulting binaries in a VM of any kind.

Re:FORK IT! (1)

jonbryce (703250) | more than 3 years ago | (#37479002)

Yes, Microsoft tried and failed to do that. Google are in trouble with their Android implementation of Java at the moment.

Shot themselves in the foot (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#37478586)

Oracle shot themselves in the foot on this one.
Many of the Oracle enterprise applications are Web Start applications. What's going to happen when some big retailer upgrades their JRE across the business and all of a sudden, their HR app doesn't work? Or their cash apps start to fail. Oracle's in for a world of hurt in a Walter Sobchak kind of way.

Re:Shot themselves in the foot (5, Insightful)

headLITE (171240) | more than 3 years ago | (#37478608)

If you have an HR webstart app that loads libraries from random servers on the internet, you probably deserve what you get...

Re:Shot themselves in the foot (3, Informative)

pavon (30274) | more than 3 years ago | (#37478870)

Many of the Oracle enterprise applications are Web Start applications.

But they don't use Java3D or JAI, and thus won't have this problem. Honestly, I'm not surprised at this move. Java3D and JMF have been neglected by Sun for years, and are pretty much considered to be abandoned APIs (for example JMF has no x86-64 support, and Java3D only supports the software renderer for x86-64). We have been moving away from them wherever possible.

Re:Shot themselves in the foot (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#37479794)

Agree. However, to correct this a little, the OpenGL and JOGL-based renderers for Java 3D work fine on 64-bit Windows (but not the DirectX renderer, although there is an unstable build of of an x86-64 renderer). While Java 3D has not been extended over the last few years, it has been maintained by the community and the odd Sun engineer with bug fixes so that it is a relatively reliable and mature API and reasonably well-documented, so it is still pretty good for educational purposes and for some 3D applications that don't need cutting-edge shader support. We still use it for legacy apps originally developed using it (it just works and is stable, so we've been taking a slow migration path), but like you are using other APIs for new projects...

Waiting (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#37478606)

I'm still waiting for them to re-open the comm library so I can do serial port control using default libraries. Seriously wtf Oracle, why did you drop support for javaxcomm?

Re:Waiting (2)

Anrego (830717) | more than 3 years ago | (#37478666)

Much as I love java, doing serial port comms with it sounds downright painful. I'd be using c/c++ for that if at all possible (and not through JNI ;p).

As they say ... (0)

tgd (2822) | more than 3 years ago | (#37478618)

You get what you pay for.

Serves'em right (5, Insightful)

Meneth (872868) | more than 3 years ago | (#37478624)

Serves JavaWebStart coders right for relying on third-party, online systems.

In that vein, one can consider what would happen if Google suddenly stopped hosting JQuery [googleapis.com] : about half of the javascript-using websites in the world would stop working. :)

Re:Serves'em right (1)

AdamJS (2466928) | more than 3 years ago | (#37478810)

And low, on that fateful day, a million junior web designers did cry out in horror at the violation of most sacrosanct of scripts.

Re:Serves'em right (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#37479042)

Serves people right for using their "CDN".

It's just another way to monitor people's browsing habits, not in an evil way at all.

"Here, use our DNS servers too, we don't mind."

Re:Serves'em right (1)

yacc143 (975862) | more than 3 years ago | (#37479452)

And that one is hard to beat, on easyness to remember (4x8 is easy to remember), so one tends to use it often when one just needs a DNS server and don't want the work to look up the local DNS up.

Re:Serves'em right (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#37479294)

Oh, third-party online systems? Like routers, DNS servers, the client's e-mail server, etc? ;)

(I get you, but it's not that they are a third party. It's that they are a untrustworthy third party. Relying on each other is the basis of the success of human society. It's just that people stopped being forced to look the other in the eye or risk being chased out of the village. And that they blindly trust someone who acts like he's an "authority". [Believing in something because he's an "authority" instead of because the argument is correct, is a well-known logical fallacy.]
Trust is a personal thing. Relative to an individual. Never absolute.
Which is why things like SSL certificate "authorities", Wikipedia's concept of "reliable sources" [="authority to admins"], all forms of government [for groups bigger than a village] with forms of "authority", and many other things, fail and cannot ever work as intended, except for the dominant minority.)

Re:Serves'em right (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#37479634)

Then it "serves'em right" for not actually downloading the file and hosting it directly. That's the risk you take when you link to other websites.

But Google gets something out of hosting Jquery (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#37479854)

Google gets a valuable return from hosting jquery - Google gets a tracking record on every web page fetch that uses the Google hosted jquery, even for web pages that tried not to contain web bugs and other tracking code.

Will Google please buy Java? (2)

cowwoc2001 (976892) | more than 3 years ago | (#37478778)

For the love of god. Put Oracle out of its misery. They're killing a good thing.

Re:Will Google please buy Java? (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#37478902)

For the love of god. Put Oracle out of its misery. They're killing a good thing.

I thought they were killing Java,

Re:Will Google please buy Java? (1)

Threni (635302) | more than 3 years ago | (#37479086)

Microsoft might as well buy it. I'm switching to C#, other than for Android development, but of all these kinds of problems (and because Eclipse sucks so hard compared to VS in practically every single way). And I don't even run Windows (yes, clearly I'll need a VM for C# development). Unless Mono is something to be taken seriously these days.

Re:Will Google please buy Java? (1)

mla_anderson (578539) | more than 3 years ago | (#37479144)

Microsoft might as well buy it. I'm switching to C#, other than for Android development, but of all these kinds of problems (and because Eclipse sucks so hard compared to VS in practically every single way). And I don't even run Windows (yes, clearly I'll need a VM for C# development). Unless Mono is something to be taken seriously these days.

Take Mono seriously, it does quite well, but MonoDevelop nope. It's about as easy to do it all by hand in your favorite text editor.

Re:Will Google please buy Java? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#37479568)

What do you dislike about Eclipse?

Re:Will Google please buy Java? (1)

heathen_01 (1191043) | more than 3 years ago | (#37479770)

They hate it for its Freedom.

Re:Will Google please buy Java? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#37479266)

I really wish they did buy Sun back then. Oracle are clueless idiots. Google are too mind you, they would have benefited from it more than having Oracle in control of it.
Hell, we'd all benefit from it since Google might have even tried expanding the language, maybe even make it less of a pain in the ass to use for web-hosted applications instead of trying to evolve JavaScript to what it is now, fast, but still too slow for anything big, like games, collab environments, etc.

Instead, we have a potentially worse thing, Native Client, on our doorsteps, and Oracle slowly killing Java.
Native Client could be great, it could be, it might create a whole new specification for hosted native code, but it will also most likely bring a ton of exploits with it.
While Chromium has stood up to a barrage of attacks fairly well, you never know what could happen.

Either way, the web-app future is coming. And with Microsoft even fully behind it, open standards and all, even sooner.

Re:Will Google please buy Java? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#37480600)

For the love of god. Put Oracle out of its misery. They're killing a good thing.

While they're at it, Google should just by Oracle, and put the rest of us out of Oracle's misery.

Who's up for launching a Kickstarter project to get Google to buy Oracle?

Problem exaggerated (4, Insightful)

prionic6 (858109) | more than 3 years ago | (#37478784)

I don't like oracle either. But if you are writing a webstartable application, you probably have the infrastructure to sign your own jars. So you could sign the Java3D-jars yourself and distribute them together with your application. Depending on availability of something like http://download.java.net/media/java3d/webstart/release/j3d/1.5.2/windows-i586/j3dcore-d3d_dll.jar [java.net] - signed or not - isn't really advisable anyway.

Re:Problem exaggerated (1)

pavon (30274) | more than 3 years ago | (#37478926)

That's what I was thinking. I'm a bit ignorant on the specific issue with Java3D though, maybe you can set me straight. For any other library we just bundle everything up into a single (signed) jar file which can then be used with Java Web Start or as a stand-alone application. However, since Java3D requires native libraries to get decent performance, I have been under the impression that users had to run the Java3D installer separately (same for JMF). If we can get away without doing so, that would be nice.

Re:Problem exaggerated (1)

prionic6 (858109) | more than 3 years ago | (#37479582)

I don't use Java3D but if you look at the jnlp file at http://download.java.net/media/java3d/webstart/release/java3d-latest.jnlp [java.net] you can see how native libraries are included depending on os:

Re:Problem exaggerated (2)

prionic6 (858109) | more than 3 years ago | (#37479602)

  <resources os="Windows" arch="x86">
    <nativelib href="j3d/1.5.2/windows-i586/j3dcore-ogl-chk_dll.jar" download="eager"/>
    <nativelib href="j3d/1.5.2/windows-i586/j3dcore-ogl_dll.jar" download="eager"/>
    <nativelib href="j3d/1.5.2/windows-i586/j3dcore-d3d_dll.jar" download="eager"/>
  </resources>

  <resources os="Windows" arch="amd64">
    <nativelib href="j3d/1.5.2/windows-amd64/j3dcore-ogl_dll.jar" download="eager"/>
  </resources>

Re:Problem exaggerated (4, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#37478978)

Yea I don't see the big issue. I always thought it is VERY bad practice to depend on external links to libraries, especially if you're already providing some libraries yourself (e.g. your app). Who knows how long these links stay valid, it can lead to inconsistencies and so on. If they're not under your control, you shouldn't have any expectations.

If this breaks things for you, you did something wrong to begin with.

Re:Problem exaggerated (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#37480614)

I don't think Java3D works without native libraries. Maybe on Apple (when Apple still distributed Java with their OS), but not on Linux or Windows.

Not That Big a Deal (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#37478958)

This isn't that big a deal. Any Java developer who is using WebStart for anything serious is already signing jars, and all you need to do is sign and deploy the jars that Oracle is no longer signing.

Re:Not That Big a Deal (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#37479112)

So I sign Sun's (now Oracle's) code? Of course, no Oracle lawyer is then going to do something retarded like say I'm claiming I wrote it. And no other lawyer is going to sue me when their client gets haxx0red via that code.

What do do? (2)

ShadowEFX (152354) | more than 3 years ago | (#37478968)

Oh Oracle! What are we supposed to do with you?

Nuke it from orbit...it's the only way to be sure.

Re:What do do? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#37479166)

Preferably from an orbit around a completely different planet . . .

Webstart download these libs from where? (3, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#37478984)

To blame is the infinite wisdom of developers that decide to reference libraries from Oracle servers. They could instead sign all the libraries themselves and put them on their own download servers. That has the added benefit that Webstart doesn't need to rely on dozens of third-party download hosts to be up and running, but only your own host must be up.

Why is this such a big deal (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#37479018)

Download the JARS, sign and package them yourself. You can't depend on external resources remaining unchanged forever.

Alternative! (1)

Kagetsuki (1620613) | more than 3 years ago | (#37479216)

Someone (Google?) should just make a language identical to Java and call it something else. Even existing Java compilers could compile it and existing Java VM's could run it! Then they should extend and alter it so we can call Vectors Vectors and use them like arrays, and do operator overloading, and other sugar that Javas "Everything is a Fucking Object, Now Shut Up" keeps us from.

Oh, and get rid of those damn fonts. The Sun Java fonts look like shit on any screen at any resolution. Oh and fix Java embedding in web pages, just fixing that we'd have a viable alternative to flash.

Do the right thing (0)

kanguro (1237830) | more than 3 years ago | (#37479518)

Port it all to a decent environment, like .NET

wah wah waaaah (1)

cornface (900179) | more than 3 years ago | (#37479556)

If colleges had waited another five years to start teaching Java as the default "learn programming" language, the middle aged programmers turned IT managers who fanatically clung to java in a bid to stay relevant would have moved out of the language decision making pipeline and we could be rid of it by now.

Unfortunately that was not the case, and now we are stuck with it forever.

It looks like (1)

jovius (974690) | more than 3 years ago | (#37479574)

Oracle just gave us an 'affeine break.

Simple - do not use client-side Java (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#37479712)

"Oh Oracle! What are we supposed to do with you?"

Why, of course. You should be using Vaadin for your RIAs. As a plus you'll get rid of JVM on client... And still you can continue using Java (Scala or Groovy or ..) and maintain the simple desktop-like develop model for your UI:s.

Answer to OP's Question (1)

prezkennedy.org (786501) | more than 3 years ago | (#37479968)

Oh Oracle! What are we supposed to do with you?

Absolutely nothing. Run for the hills. Anyone who sticks around for this kind of continued abuse and incompetence has Stockholm Syndrome.

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