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Alcatel-Lucent Boosts Copper Broadband To 100Mbps

timothy posted more than 2 years ago | from the faster-better dept.

Networking 129

Mark.JUK writes "Telecommunications giant Alcatel-Lucent has today become the first-to-market with VDSL2 Vectoring technology which, it claims, will push the top broadband internet access speeds of existing copper telephone lines over 100Mbps and without needing to bond multiple lines together. Vectoring is essentially a 'noise cancellation' method (similar, in principal, to the technology found in some headphones) that works to cancel out background noise / interference (i.e. crosstalk) and can thus boost performance and reach (coverage) by between 25% and 100%."

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129 comments

What about latency? (1, Insightful)

Hentes (2461350) | more than 2 years ago | (#37478612)

The biggest problem of copper is latency not bandwith.

Re:What about latency? (5, Insightful)

Pharmboy (216950) | more than 2 years ago | (#37478630)

The biggest problem of copper is latency not bandwith.

In the consumer market, bandwidth sells, latency doesn't.

Re:What about latency? (1)

mehrotra.akash (1539473) | more than 2 years ago | (#37478670)

Gamers?

Re:What about latency? (1)

trum4n (982031) | more than 2 years ago | (#37478822)

Their mom pays the bill, so nope.

Re:What about latency? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37479050)

She asks her son for which one to choose. So yep.

Re:What about latency? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37479318)

Or in some families. X is cheaper than Y. And look 10 is bigger than 6 see so it must be better.

In many families the PARENTS make the decisions. Not the children... I know this is a shock to some people...

In my family it would be *ME* making the decision. Not my kids. My kids could plead their case. So nope...

Most latency is due to the use of improper use of TCP backoff and bufferbloat. So that way they can sell you 10MB cable with a 15 boost. Yeah I get 15 *once* and awhile. But not enough to make it interesting. Then 90% of the time I am hitting some server on the other end of the country and have gone thru 30 routers and never see 10 most of the time anyway. The only reason you see it with bittorrent and the like is because the large number of senders filling your pipe.

Re:What about latency? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37479328)

My mom stopped paying for my Internet about 15 years ago and I still consider myself a gamer.

Re:What about latency? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37479406)

Do you really think most gamers are kids?

Re:What about latency? (1)

trum4n (982031) | more than 2 years ago | (#37479720)

Wow, no one can take a joke anymore. I am really sick of all the angry people. Get off the internet if you are going to be a jerk.

Re:What about latency? (1)

hedwards (940851) | more than 2 years ago | (#37479198)

Judging from the fact that low latency connections aren't available here, I'd have to suggest that it isn't selling. Whether or not it would is another question.

OTOH, we don't have bandwidth over 6mbps available here at all, so perhaps it's just greed and incompetence. Either way, I'd be more than happy to deal with the latency if I could get 100mbps of bandwidth.

Re:What about latency? (1)

tlhIngan (30335) | more than 2 years ago | (#37480998)

Gamers?

Too stupid and buy cable connections because they offer "bigger numbers".

Go to dslreports.com and see - the cable provider forums are constantly filled with "high ping" and "lag spiking" complaints. Of course, they refuse to try DSL because their 15/1 connection outclasses the 3/.5 max that they can get via DSL. There are those who use both - DSL for gaming (constant latency), cable for fast downloads.

Bandwidth sells - it's easy to show pages/movies/downloads arrive faster. Latency, not so much. Heck, most cable providers advertise "more speed for better gaming performance!" rather than low latency.

Re:What about latency? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37479028)

Slashdot: Stating opinion as fact since 1997.

Get a clue you chimp.

Re:What about latency? (1)

thoughtspace (1444717) | more than 2 years ago | (#37478680)

Huh? Signal through copper is 66% of speed of light.
Isn't the latency due to routing which affects all media?

Re:What about latency? (2)

kent_eh (543303) | more than 2 years ago | (#37478882)

Routing and signal processing.
If they're doing a lot of processing as part of their noise reduction, there could be a significant delay added (in each direction)

Re:What about latency? (1)

Shatrat (855151) | more than 2 years ago | (#37479030)

Maybe, I doubt it though. FEC processing on optical signals adds less than a millisecond (I think the numbers I've seen are around 100 microseconds on both ends).
I'm not saying that what they are doing is anything like FEC, but the magic of ASICs can make hard math happen really quickly.

Re:What about latency? (1)

Bengie (1121981) | more than 2 years ago | (#37480422)

100us sounds a bit high actually. When I run a high-resolution ping on my home network, it claims 0.01ms pings from my computer to my wife's through my Netgear 3700 home router. That right there is only 10us. So, from the time an application instructs the OS to ping a computer to the time the other computer receives the packet, is about 10 millionths of a second, on home-grade equipment.

I should hope fiber is faster than that.

Re:What about latency? (1)

Shatrat (855151) | more than 2 years ago | (#37480782)

I believe there is a range and 100usec is the high end, I was being generous.
I think I've seen as low as 7usec with slower 2.5 gbps lines using normal FEC (not higher bitrate Enhanced FEC). I'd have to dig through operations manuals to confirm.
This is on optical transport equipment that costs as much as a house, not consumer grade routers which aren't going to have FEC at all.

Re:What about latency? (5, Informative)

Bruce Perens (3872) | more than 2 years ago | (#37478748)

Those gamers really notice the velocity factor, do they?

The problem isn't copper, it's bufferbloat.

Re:What about latency? (2)

lars_stefan_axelsson (236283) | more than 2 years ago | (#37480622)

No, not velocity factor but rather the problem of copper POTS having crappy channel characteristics and bandwidth, which means that you have to do heavier and heavier signal processing to squeeze ever more diminishing bitrate improvements out of them. And this signal processing takes time, i.e. adds latency, there's no way around that. Case in point; pinging from work to home (250 miles, 10 hops) is on the order of 25 ms. That's with fibre all the way into my basement. (50 Mbps up/down for ca $35/mo inc. IP-telephony.) My DSL way back when was on that order just for the first hop. So that cut my latency in half right there. Now whether that actually matters in the greater scheme of things is another thing entirely. (It's not like the days of modems with 200-300 ms) And it doesn't detract from the buffer bloat problem when links begin to saturate, but that's a different problem.

Re:What about latency? (3, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37478786)

There really is no difference in latency between copper and fiber. Fiber runs ~200km/sec which about 2/3 the speed of light. Copper is very similar. Switching equipment causes latency.

Re:What about latency? (1)

joib (70841) | more than 2 years ago | (#37478868)

2/3 of the speed of light (in vacuum) is actually about 200000 km/sec. Otherwise the parent poster is correct, though. There is no big difference between the speed of signal propagation in fiber vs copper.

Re:What about latency? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37479766)

the big problem on ADSL is, as someone else said, bandwidth sells, latency doesn't. so they turn on frame interleaving for all connections, which boost latency by 40-60ms.

for some company it's possible to request that they disable interleaving on your connection.
  i know in canada, bell and vif will do it (everyone is a bell reseller) if you whine enough

Re:What about latency? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37478812)

If you'd RTFA, you'd see its fiber to the cabinet then copper to the home. So if you live far as shit from the cabinet, it might add 1ms of latency vs fiber over that same span. Not exactly back breaking.

Re:What about latency? (1)

quantumphaze (1245466) | more than 2 years ago | (#37479052)

If you live far as shit away then you will only get ADSL speeds anyway. VDSL throughput quickly drops after 100 metres.

Re:What about latency? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37479206)

And that's exactly the point of their new technology, RTFA u nerf.

Re:What about latency? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37479564)

Far as shit = 100 meters

Perhaps you have never heard of this measurement?

Re:What about latency? (1)

compro01 (777531) | more than 2 years ago | (#37479900)

VDSL2 offers 50Mbps out to a kilometre or 100Mbps at 500m.

The local phone company uses a maximum loop length of 900m with FTTN and FTTP getting rolled out in the near future.

Re:Irrelevant? (5, Insightful)

thegarbz (1787294) | more than 2 years ago | (#37478976)

Copper is mainly used for last mile delivery not for backhaul. The majority of latency issues which come into play only if you're really a hardcore gamer are to do with routing and switching. Fibre does not fix this problem, actually it may make it worse as routers are purchased which provide more bandwidth with bigger buffers which further contribute to a the bufferbloat phenomenon which affects and degrades routing.

Furthermore your typical ADSL connection to a local game server is 20-30ms. Unless you're the type of gamer who makes their primary career from p4wning n00bs, reducing this figure by 5ms isn't going to provide you with much of an advance. Not into games? What else is there? About the only other really low latency service (and by this I mean service where 20ms becomes significant) is supercomputing, and for grid projects likely to use home internet connections and consumer hardware this isn't an issue.

So my question back to you: Why is it a problem? What are you hoping to fix?

Re:Irrelevant? (1)

HopefulIntern (1759406) | more than 2 years ago | (#37479360)

I am lucky to get 30, usually sit at 40-50 and thats only on foreign servers (ironically), to UK servers its usually higher than that.

Re:Irrelevant? (1)

slackbheep (1420367) | more than 2 years ago | (#37479864)

Yeah yeah, lord it over me why don't you =p
I live in the northern ass end of Canada and pay $129/month for my internet connection(100gb/month $13/gb for additional usage), which promised 25mbps while providing just shy of two, and leaving me with a ping of about 90-150 to a typical server in southern Canada or the north end of the States. I pray this is not the sign of things to come, but we both know Bell, Rogers and co will charge these prices with a grin elsewhere if consumers can be convinced to pay.

Re:Irrelevant? (1)

HopefulIntern (1759406) | more than 2 years ago | (#37480466)

I live in a city in the UK which supposedly has some of the fastest broadband in the country. Yet, i rarely touch 1mbps (usually between 500-700k). This costs me £20 per month. It is uncapped, but I dont know why I bother paying extra for that, not like I could possibly max out my allowance anyway.

At least you dont have to live around a bunch of people who are getting 20-50mb and rubbing it in your face.

Re:Irrelevant? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37481024)

1 Mbps is NOT the same as 1 MBps

Abbreviations are case-sensitive. 1 Mb is one mega-bit whereas 1 MB is one mega-byte. There are 8 bits in 1 byte, so your bandwidth is actually 8 times smaller than what you were thinking it was. Memory is always measured in bytes because memory is byte-addressable (you can't store just 1 bit in your RAM), but information is sent over wires bit-by-bit, so bandwidth is always measured in bits. This means TFA is advertising download speeds of up to 12.5MB/s, not 100MB/s.

Anyway, your bandwidth sounds very reasonable. Where I live AT&T says they can't offer more than 6Mbps downstream, which comes out to about what you're getting. I don't typically see more than about 350KB/s though.

Also, the 20-30 and 40-50 figures used in our parent posts were talking about pings in ms (milliseconds), not bandwidth.

Re:Irrelevant? (1)

Hatta (162192) | more than 2 years ago | (#37479846)

Not into games? What else is there? About the only other really low latency service

What about remote desktop?

Re:What about latency? (1)

stardaemon (834177) | more than 2 years ago | (#37478980)

I suspect most latency when using copper comes from error correction. You could try having your ISP lower/zero your interleave value.. [wikipedia.org]
That can shave off 10-20ms, but it requires that wires aren't crap..

Re:What about latency? (5, Insightful)

jpstanle (1604059) | more than 2 years ago | (#37478986)

I don't know what planet you live on, but here on earth waves propagate through copper transmission lines at a speed on the order of about half the speed of light [wikipedia.org]. The latency due to a copper cable with a .66 velocity factor over a 10km run is about .050 milliseconds. Considering the latency of the IP network that you're connected to is probably at least 50 ms to even the closest nodes, I doubt a 0.1% increase is going to bother you.

The biggest problem of copper is not latency, it's that you have to lay the fucking cable.

Re:What about latency? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37480088)

Fact-like typing detected. Slashdot, the home of the Space Nutter religion, likes its opinions and fallacies. Facts are not welcome, high-school physics is regarded with suspicion.

Re:What about latency? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37480136)

I don't know what planet you live on, but here on earth waves propagate through copper transmission lines at a speed on the order of about half the speed of light [wikipedia.org]. The latency due to a copper cable with a .66 velocity factor over a 10km run is about .050 milliseconds. Considering the latency of the IP network that you're connected to is probably at least 50 ms to even the closest nodes, I doubt a 0.1% increase is going to bother you.

The biggest problem of copper is not latency, it's that you have to lay the fucking cable.

In this case the cables (the twisted pair copper) are already there. They are the legacy phone lines that anyone who is not on coax/fiber IP phone is still using for their standard phone connection and regular DSL for their internet. What this means is that the local phone company can now offer very high speed internet and video WITHOUT changing the copper wire infrastructure they built 60 years ago. DSL's limit is about 3 miles over twisted pair copper. I would be interested to know how far this ADSL2 can reach and still maintain 100mbs speeds.

If it's less then the 3 miles (most likely) then the latency is about the same for it as regular DSL.

The best part of this news is it solves "the last mile" problem faced by the phone companies for triple-play delivery to the home and does so with out having to replace all that copper with fiber or coax.

Re:What about latency? (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37479010)

Propagation speed in copper is actually slightly faster than that of light in fibre.

Re:What about latency? (1)

Bengie (1121981) | more than 2 years ago | (#37479148)

Propagation speed in copper is actually slightly faster than that of light in fibre.

^^
This

Re:What about latency? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37479230)

I'd say the biggest problem - with any last-mile technology, not just copper - is implementation. Implementing a new technology which will improve the user experience costs money, and telcos have shown a strong distaste for investing their own money in their infrastructure.

The biggest problem with copper is that DSL is basically used as a method to remain profitable without doing significant infrastructure upgrades.

Re:What about latency? (1)

Cimexus (1355033) | more than 2 years ago | (#37480382)

Say what? Copper itself doesn't have inherently more latency than fibre (in fact, the propagation speed of a signal in copper is slightly faster than light in fibre). I suspect you are referring to frame interleaving commonly used on xDSL connections. Which can be turned off. My ISP allows you to change this setting from the toolbox on their website ... first hop latency reduces from ~20 ms to ~9 ms if I do so. Once you're past the first hop the additional latency to the destination will obviously be the same regardless of the last-mile medium of delivery.

A true fibre connection would reduce this first hop to almost zero, admittedly, so would still exhibit less latency - true. But I think it's a bit of a stretch to call an extra ~9 ms of latency a "problem of copper".

Re:What about latency? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37480644)

Not sure what you mean. On my 20mbps Qwest VDSL my ping is routinely between 31-37ms for CoD and WoW. I've never seen it higher than 50. On comcast I was routinely getting in the 60s.

Too little, too late (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37478626)

I have fibers to my house now...

Re:Too little, too late (1)

Yaotzin (827566) | more than 2 years ago | (#37478948)

What? This is great for all the people who don't have fiber and can't afford to connect their house with it. I'm capped at 25Mbit/s because of this. Wouldn't mind a 400% increase of speed.

Re:Too little, too late (1)

hedwards (940851) | more than 2 years ago | (#37479236)

And there are those of us that would be grateful to get 25mbps, around here the ISP only offers 6mbps tops if you go with cable or 5mbps with DSL. And that's assuming that you're in a neighborhood where they care about providing a halfway decent connections, some of the neighborhoods top out at 1.5mbps.

Speed (3, Funny)

Wowsers (1151731) | more than 2 years ago | (#37478656)

Throttled down to what?

Re:Speed (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37479096)

Hey they won't throttle it down, they will just give you a 1G cap, and then bill you $100 for each Gig over that.

DSL is like the herpes... (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37478660)

Can't get rid of it and for some reason some people are intent on spreading it :(

Re:DSL is like the herpes... (1)

razorh (853659) | more than 2 years ago | (#37478772)

And what would you suggest, when your only options are DSL or Comcast? I personally will never give Comcast another penny, ever. I would do without internet access before I'd pay them anything.

Re:DSL is like the herpes... (1)

trum4n (982031) | more than 2 years ago | (#37478856)

Nice rhetoric, but the internet is the only thing comcast is good at. Last time mine was out was Snowmageddon, and it's as fast as a tazer chased cat.

Re:DSL is like the herpes... (1)

razorh (853659) | more than 2 years ago | (#37479032)

That may be so, but in my case they have screwed up too many times in the past (going back 15 years or so) to ever get my business again. It's not about how good their internet service is, it's about my feelings for them as a company and how I have been treated by said company.

Re:DSL is like the herpes... (1)

trum4n (982031) | more than 2 years ago | (#37479208)

I know how you feel. For me it's Verizon, AT&T, IBM, Dell, Sony, Microsoft and the government.

Re:DSL is like the herpes... (1)

hedwards (940851) | more than 2 years ago | (#37479258)

Comcast is capped and when they had my business they managed to be out several hours every single afternoon. Even if they have fixed their service, they're still capped and barely any faster than DSL. On top of which, I'd be sharing bandwidth going to the ISP.

Re:DSL is like the herpes... (1)

trum4n (982031) | more than 2 years ago | (#37479336)

I get 34mbps down, about 2mbps up. Pulled over 250gbs last month. No cap, and its fast enough for me. I saturate every server i try to download from. I'm glad everything done by the big distros is on torrent. It's nice downloading a distro in a few min.

Re:DSL is like the herpes... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37478936)

My choice for internet is DSL (Frontier, formerly Verizon) or 3G. Every couple years Insight does a door-to-door survey to see if there is enough interest to hang cable down the road but everyone already has DirectTV or Dish, so they all say no.

Re:DSL is like the herpes... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37479470)

Frontier is absolute garbage. Fucking 1.5mbps that actually translates to 120kb/s these days and performance is getting worse. When DSL in my area was managed by Epix at least then I saw 60ms, these days I'm lucky to ping 90-120ms I have the same problem, Time Warner Cable comes through every now and then and no one will subscribe to get cable ran because they're all stuck on frontier and DirectTV or Dish

Small print (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37478730)

*must live in the phone exchange

Principal/principle (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37478746)

Principal "first in order of importance, main" (source http://oxforddictionaries.com/definition/principal)
Principle "a fundamental truth or proposition..."

The easiest way to remember which to use is that principal has an 'a' in it.

Good luck (1)

netwarerip (2221204) | more than 2 years ago | (#37478756)

Yeah, this is all well and good if you live next door to the CO or in a city with new copper. Anyone living in the vast majority of 'older' cities and towns on the east coast is dealing with copper that was installed before the 1960's and has no shot at this kind of speed.

Re:Good luck (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37478884)

Bell Canada has a VDSL2 rollout. They bring a DSLAM into neighborhood cabinets, and run fibre to that. They call them RDSLAMs (R is for remote).

I'm 1500 ft. from my remote, as the copper rolls.

Mind you, you'd have to be insane (or uneducated) to use Bell Canada (or Rogers) for Internet service.

Re:Good luck (1)

slackbheep (1420367) | more than 2 years ago | (#37480010)

Or live in one of the areas they have a nice strangle hold, like the vast majority of the NWT, for instance.
There is no middle finger big enough.

Re:Good luck (1)

Guspaz (556486) | more than 2 years ago | (#37480060)

Bell's VDSL2 rollout also includes installing remotes in the basements of MDUs (apartment/condo buildings) to serve them and surrounding buildings. I'm 147 feet from my VDSL2 DSLAM.

It's an easy win; you install a small RDSLAM in the basement and run some fibre to it, and suddenly you can offer VDSL2 internet and HD IPTV to 250 new potential customers. And hey, if the neighbouring buildings are close enough, multiply that by a few times.

Re:Good luck (1)

rogueippacket (1977626) | more than 2 years ago | (#37480888)

This. TELUS does exactly the same in the West. You don't NEED fiber to the home when your DSLAM is that close, and in most cases you can even avoid laying new copper. The technology just gets a bad rap when incompetent ISPs try to sell you xDSL service through a shoddy local loop, and then refuse to roll a truck to fix it.

Re:Good luck (1)

compro01 (777531) | more than 2 years ago | (#37480062)

Sasktel does the same thing with a 900m maximum loop length.

They're also rolling out FTTP, starting Real Soon Now, supposedly covering everywhere in all the major cities by 2017.

Re:Good luck (0)

witherstaff (713820) | more than 2 years ago | (#37480278)

Don't worry the telcos were given hundreds of billions and agreed to roll out fiber to the home in many cities and states. I'm sure that'll happen any day now, I mean they promised!

Re:Good luck (1)

rogueippacket (1977626) | more than 2 years ago | (#37480982)

Don't worry, it is actually cheaper to trench fiber now than copper, so you will see this happening if you haven't already. I can't speak for the States, but new subdivisions in Western Canada actually have fiber being run to them from day one instead of copper lines. Profit motive is a great thing, and the international demand for copper has made this a reality. What you will not see is fiber being rolled out to existing neighborhoods - it is usually much cheaper to upgrade the neighborhood's cabinet to provide better service over the existing copper lines. There are some exceptions, of course, but this is the general trend.

Principal? (1)

TeknoHog (164938) | more than 2 years ago | (#37478794)

similar, in principal, to the technology found in some headmasters

Fixed that for you.

Re:Principal? (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37478930)

Too subtle. The fucktards who can't tell principal from principle won't get it.

Att should use this to up there poor bit rate on U (1)

Joe_Dragon (2206452) | more than 2 years ago | (#37478830)

Att should use this to up there poor bit rate on U-Verse and up all users to 4 or more HD streams.

Re:Att should use this to up there poor bit rate o (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37478932)

Where bit rate?

Coming soon to Canada... (4, Interesting)

Pope (17780) | more than 2 years ago | (#37478910)

With a 40GB/month cap!

Re:Coming soon to Canada... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37479006)

The post isn't lying. Caps are so stupid up here.

Re:Coming soon to Verizon... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37479048)

With a 5GB/month cap!

Re:Coming soon to Canada... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37479600)

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Re:Coming soon to Canada... (1)

sgt scrub (869860) | more than 2 years ago | (#37480206)

Your unhappy because you will only be able to taunt people in the U.S. for having a 20GB cap and 1/20th the speed?

Re:Coming soon to Canada... (1)

TrevorB (57780) | more than 2 years ago | (#37480338)

My 100Mbps last mile copper line here in Canada (Shaw Cable - been active for the past half year) has a 500GB/mo cap. There's talk of a 250Mbps with 1TB/mo cap (or unlimited) options coming out later this year. The price isn't exorbitant too, too much for college kids, but $99/mo with digital cable isn't *that* bad.

It's not all horrible up here.

(And yes, Teksavvy should have the right to offer the same Internet service without cable on the same copper at a fraction of that price)

Re:Coming soon to Canada... (1)

Pope (17780) | more than 2 years ago | (#37480632)

Heh :) I have 15 (now 25, I think?) Mbps cable through TekSavvy with no cap, running on Rogers' lines. I've heard good things about Shaw's cable offerings out West, but there's zero chance we'll get anything like that from Rogers in Ontario anyway.

Re:Coming soon to Canada... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37481034)

I get 30Mbps in Quebec with a ridiculous 120gb cap from teksavvy going over Videotron.

Could be great for FIOS MDU users (1)

DeafDumbBlind (264205) | more than 2 years ago | (#37479282)

Verizon uses VDSL as part of their FIOS service in apartment buildings if they can't get access to run fiber to the apartment. This usualy limits bandwidth to about 30Mb downstram and 4 or 5 Mb upstream.
If they switch to VDSL2 then I may finally get the full 35/35 speeds I'm paying for.

Upload Speed (1)

Techman83 (949264) | more than 2 years ago | (#37479394)

So what about upload speed? Really, that is the achilles heel of all of these technologies. Also how many people are going to live in the zone that gets 100mbps or will it be like where I live, suburban area Perth with a cable run 4km from the exchange (don't mind that the exchange is abount 1.5k away via the road) and getting ADSL1 speeds, but paying for ADSL2+ (which is actually cheaper as it's not provided by the semi privatised monopoly called Telstra).

Re:Upload Speed (1)

Guspaz (556486) | more than 2 years ago | (#37480082)

Upload speeds on VDSL2 aren't automatically fixed like they are on ADSL. Different VDSL2 profiles use different splits. Personally, I've got 25 megs down, 7 megs up, and I've bonded two of those to get 50 megs down, 14 megs up.

The distance issue just requires them to push the remote DSLAMs closer to the customers. In my case, Bell Canada has installed the VDSL2 RDSLAM in the basement of my building. I'm 2400m from the CO, but only 45m from the closest DSLAM.

Re:Upload Speed (1)

rogueippacket (1977626) | more than 2 years ago | (#37481190)

There is an important distinction to make when looking at upload speeds for any access technology. First of all, there is your train rate - this is the rate you are getting to the local cabinet. ADSL offered very little in terms of upload train rates, but VDSL2 is much more generous. For example, my VDSL2 at home is 60 Mbps/25 Mbps. Now, you also need to consider your committed rate, which is usually determined by your Layer 3 gateway inside the service provider network. My committed rate, right now, is actually 35 Mbps/3 Mbps. Some people call this "bandwidth throttling", others call it "quality of service", but what it comes down to is even though I'm talking at 60/25 to the cabinet, my service provider is only selling me 35/3.
Remember, the service providers built their networks to support the previous access technologies - DOCSIS v2 and ADSL. Nobody (well, almost nobody) complained about poor upload rates then, so why would the ISP all of a sudden decide to double, triple, or quadruple your rates just because the technology supports it? I doubt the local cabinets could even handle the traffic demand that would place upon it, and so long as that bandwidth could be used for new customers, what incentive is there to make a change? You will get your increased rates, but the ISPs will need to lay much, much more fiber before this happens.

Re:Upload Speed (1)

Solandri (704621) | more than 2 years ago | (#37481450)

VDSL and VDSL2 don't have a bias for download (or upload) bandwidth. Your carrier can choose anything from fully symmetric to heavily asymmetric, but the technology itself doesn't care. Bandwidth is not arbitrarily pre-allocated like with ADSL.

Irrelevant if it won't be deployed (1)

blackanvil (1147329) | more than 2 years ago | (#37479896)

All these wonderful high-speed Internet connections do us no good if the telcos refuse to deploy them. I live just a few miles out from DC, and I can't get any broadband because Verizon refuses to install it.

And distance? (1)

Camaro (13996) | more than 2 years ago | (#37479956)

I would be interested to know if the technology to boost bandwidth on copper might also help push bandwidth out further. A lot of us rural folk still don't have a lot of choices when it comes to broadband and all of them are expensive.

Re:And distance? (2)

Guspaz (556486) | more than 2 years ago | (#37480182)

Not really, there hasn't been any real advancements in long-distance DSL since ADSL2's annex L (Re-ADSL2), which cranked up the power a bit to extend the range.

ADSL, ADSL2, and VDSL2 all behave about the same after a certain point. VDSL2 can do 250 mbps symmetrical at source, but after 1600m, it performs the same as ADSL2+, and eventually, the same as ADSL. All these newer DSL standards are really doing is crank up how much spectrum is used, enabling faster speeds at the distances short enough to be able to use those frequencies.

Vectoring helps eliminate crosstalk between multiple DSL lines sharing a bundle of wires, but probably won't make all that much of a difference on long loops, simple attenuation is the enemy there. The real answer to pushing DSL out farther is to push the DSLAM closer, and run fibre to the DSLAM.

Baseband's been doing it for 16 years... (1)

DarthStrydre (685032) | more than 2 years ago | (#37480024)

..100Base-T. Albeit not over incredibly long distances.

Conversely on that broadband cable line already coming to your house, each 6MHz channel can support a downstream rate of 42.88Mb/sec using QAM256 (with some of this as overhead). Devoting that entirely to "Internets", the usable frequency range of that cable (typically) is from ~54MHz to 750MHz which represents 116 channels. 116*42.88 = 4974Mb/sec, or ~5Gb/sec of useful data in one direction. Cut that in half, and allowing for upstream inefficiencies (QAM64 instead of QAM256), you could theoretically get ~2.5Gb/sec down, ~1.75Gb/sec up over that one cable using current tech.

Of course you'd need multiple cable modems on the receiving side (or a killer DOCSIS 3 device supporting 58 down, 58 up channels) and the corresponding hardware at the head end. This is not unfeasable, just impractical.

And with Comcast you'd reach your bandwidth cap in just under 7 minutes...

The point is that the claimed level of performance of DSL can be trumped by a single entry level DOCSIS 3 cable modem (152Mb/sec down, 123Mb/sec up) using just 4 channels each way.

Duh...twisted pair to coax is no comparison (1)

Chirs (87576) | more than 2 years ago | (#37480410)

The amazing thing is that they're able to pull this out of measly twisted pair.

Yawn... (1)

bwalzer (708512) | more than 2 years ago | (#37480140)

VDSL2 only gives good speed if you have short high quality loops to a cabinet. You end up with lots of cabinets attached to a fiber network. All the effort to achieve this is better spent extending the fiber the last little bit to the building which allows for fewer and better placed cabinets. As a result VDSL2 is only good for things like apartment buildings with no provision to add fiber. It is more or less a stillborn technology.

Re:Yawn... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37481000)

I don't know about other countries but our major DSL provider here in Belgium has upgraded most of his network to VDSL2
It uses the bandwidth for offering 2 HiDef IP-TV channels (one for recording and one for watching) together with Internet subscriptions up to speeds of 30Mbps for the heavier subscriptions.
Perhaps this is possible here since we are a very densely populated country.

I personally have no experience with the provider since I have a subscription with the competition which has the same offerings via Coax.

And more bandwidth is better for internet smut :p

Re:Yawn... (1)

rogueippacket (1977626) | more than 2 years ago | (#37481326)

On one hand, you are correct - you need a superb loop to a nearby cabinet, and these cabinets must be attached to a fiber network. On the other hand, trenching new fiber to an existing home is prohibitively expensive, and then you need to replace the entire cabinet anyway to support fiber subscribers instead of copper! There are a few exceptions to this, such as aerial fiber, but this is rarely an option. If installing a new cabinet is not an option, an ISP will usually opt for wireless. Not entirely ideal, but a new realm of possibilities exists with LTE.

what you call noise is what i call music! (1)

jsepeta (412566) | more than 2 years ago | (#37480380)

the static sounds between modem handshakes could forever be lost, corrupting data packets along the way

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