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Oracle's Plans for Java Unveiled at JavaOne

samzenpus posted about 3 years ago | from the here's-the-plan dept.

IOS 155

msmoriarty writes "Oracle had lots of Java announcements at this year's JavaOne. So far the plans include: 'The availability of an early access version of JDK 7 for the Mac OS, plans to "bridge the gap" between Java ME and Java SE, an approach to modularizing Java SE 8 that will rely on the Jigsaw platform, a new project that aims to use HTML5 to bring Java to Apple's iOS platform, the availability of JavaFX 2.0, a pending proposal to open source that technology, gearing up Java EE for the cloud, and a delay in the release of Java 8.'"

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Juck Fava. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 years ago | (#37618610)

Actually I use it professionally, but still.

Re:Juck Fava. (5, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 years ago | (#37618682)

Juck Fava.

Don't you mean something more like

ReproductiveSystem.getBodyPart(BodyPartFactory.getBodyPartInstance(new BodyPart(BodyPart.GENITALS(BodyTypes.MALE)))...

Re:Juck Fava. (2, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 years ago | (#37618910)

What the hell?

Any self respecting Java developer knows you have to have a GenitalsFactory class that can creates both MaleGenitals and FemaleGenitals (and may in future be extended to create HermaphroditeGenitals, which will be a totally different class because multiple-inheritance if Wrong and Bad)

Re:Juck Fava. (1)

halivar (535827) | about 3 years ago | (#37619134)

Now I know why I hate variant types. Typeless languages are a sea of androgyny. Like Europe. /duck /run /hide

Re:Juck Fava. (2)

idontusenumbers (1367883) | about 3 years ago | (#37619386)

This crap is an architecture decision and not Java specific.

Re:Juck Fava. (1)

yourmommycalled (2280728) | about 3 years ago | (#37620240)

A perfect example of why object-oriented programming has convinced engineers and scientists that programming is joke and not to be trusted. Why freshman engineering students who taught themselves to write efficient z80 and 68000 assembly language in high school learn to hate computer science after taking "CS-101A Intro to Object Oriented Programming"

Re:Juck Fava. (2)

Lokitoth (1069508) | about 3 years ago | (#37620694)

If you do not understand how to make clean, efficient code in Language X, you should consider learning Language X.

Re:Juck Fava. (1)

yourmommycalled (2280728) | about 3 years ago | (#37622180)

If Language X makes the job of writing clean efficient code several orders of magnitude harder than Language Y, what purpose is served by learning Language X? The original "Juck Fava" gave perfect example of OO's problems. The single line is niether clean, nor clear, nor maintainable. Think line noise.

And they said Java was dead! (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 years ago | (#37618618)

Java is clearly not a "dead platform" like some fools claimed it to be. It was quiet for a little while, but it's roaring back to life now that it has some good funding behind it again.

If you want to talk about dead platforms, look no further than Perl. It has stagnated the worst of all of the once-popular programming languages.

Re:And they said Java was dead! (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 years ago | (#37618676)

SPACE NUTTERS!

Re:And they said Java was dead! (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 years ago | (#37618932)

I guess you didn't get the memo. There was a change in terminology: Any language that is popular and widely in-use in the industry is now called a 'dead language'. Therefore C, C++, C#, Java, VB, Python, Fortran, COBOL, etc... are all 'dead', as in they are widely used. Also Objective-C is now well on its way to being 'dead'.

Re:And they said Java was dead! (2)

TrueSpeed (576528) | about 3 years ago | (#37621926)

Looks like you got the wrong memo. Any language that is not used by a hipster is dead.

Re:And they said Java was dead! (1)

zoloto (586738) | about 3 years ago | (#37618976)

the only reason I have it installed is because of Minecraft.

Re:And they said Java was dead! (1)

Hylandr (813770) | about 3 years ago | (#37620336)

Ditto.

At work we are migrating clients away from a java based platform as fast as we can. The Oracle/Sun marketing front can infest all the blogs and news sites with it's marketing drivel till the cows come home, only senseless newbs out of college will sacrifice what may have been a budding career to it.

Yes, you can call me bitter now.

- Dan.

Re:And they said Java was dead! (1)

SplashMyBandit (1543257) | about 3 years ago | (#37621556)

> Yes, you can call me bitter now.
Lol. I call you a desktop weenie. The Enterprise space is totally pwned by Java. Just cause you don't have it in your start menu doesn't mean that Java (and C) doesn't run all the heavy lifting you can't see behind the Web.

Re:And they said Java was dead! (0)

Hylandr (813770) | about 3 years ago | (#37621904)

> Yes, you can call me bitter now.

Lol. I call you a desktop weenie. The Enterprise space is totally pwned by Java. Just cause you don't have it in your start menu doesn't mean that Java (and C) doesn't run all the heavy lifting you can't see behind the Web.

Pwned ? get off your Dad's computer, and come back when your balls drop.

The only thing Java dominates is CPU load.

- Dan.

Re:And they said Java was dead! (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 years ago | (#37622006)

Go apply an update you IT monkey. You're the type of dip-shit that programmers looks down to. Now, get me an Ethernet cable, bitch.

Re:And they said Java was dead! (1)

rednip (186217) | about 3 years ago | (#37622258)

The only thing Java dominates is CPU load.

Yes, on our production servers java does dominate the CPU load. Does so pretty much overwhelmingly, however it's the designed capacity. If you want to be a fan boy or comic book guy type, who cries about 'the best' or 'the worst' of known arguments every time a subject comes up, you can't be stopped. However, it should be acknowledged that all you're really adding are obviously well practiced taunts. Are you trying to dumb down Slashdot on purpose? Or is it just your nature?

Re:And they said Java was dead! (1)

Hylandr (813770) | about 3 years ago | (#37622692)

I wouldn't call that a good design. But maybe I am just too old school. back in the day we used to design for the lightest CPU load possible, not the heaviest.

As for reducing the collective intelligence of slashdot, most of the newcomers have done a good enough job of that on their own.

  No wonder Cmd Taco quit.

- Dan.
* Taking his marbles, and playing somewhere sane.

Re:And they said Java was dead! (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 years ago | (#37622534)

There is nothing I hate mote then an IT cunt who spends his life administering to the needs of "his" users. You preach like you know what you're talking about, yet your day involves servicing idiots whose cables are loose and telling people to reboot their computer. If you had any intelligence whatsoever you would have gotten a computer science degree and become a developer. So, just shut the fuck up, dweeb and get back to the help desk.

Re:And they said Java was dead! (0)

SplashMyBandit (1543257) | about 3 years ago | (#37622656)

Is that the best you can do? Clearly you have no decent comeback argument as you're not a developer (I am, and have been for several decades) - and probably all you do is change mouses in your organization. Lame, very lame.

Re:And they said Java was dead! (1)

MightyMartian (840721) | about 3 years ago | (#37619068)

It may be quiet on the consumer front, but in the enterprise world, Java remains one of the big things. Ignore the .NET and Python fanatics.

Re:And they said Java was dead! (1)

Hylandr (813770) | about 3 years ago | (#37620364)

No, It's not. If it's in use still, it's because of vendor lock-in.

- Dan.

Re:And they said Java was dead! (1)

afabbro (33948) | about 3 years ago | (#37621780)

No, It's not. If it's in use still, it's because of vendor lock-in.

I'm not sure what universe you're in, but Java and COBOL are the dominant languages in big business.

Yes, the typical dot-com startup uses ruby or whatever, but the Fortune 500 writes a ton of Java code each year.

Re:And they said Java was dead! (1)

Hylandr (813770) | about 3 years ago | (#37621992)

Citations please.

Re:And they said Java was dead! (1)

afabbro (33948) | about 3 years ago | (#37622684)

Citations please.

Sure, as soon as the previous poster provides some for his claim that Java is not big in the enterprise world.

Re:And they said Java was dead! (2)

Nadaka (224565) | about 3 years ago | (#37622156)

And the Department of Defense. Java is vetted for TS and higher clearance systems. Most other languages and platforms are not.

Re:And they said Java was dead! (1)

wiedzmin (1269816) | about 3 years ago | (#37619142)

In other news, Mozilla is considering dropping support for Java in Firefox, to fix SSL/TLS vulnerabilities... so yeah, I'd say it's close.

Re:And they said Java was dead! (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 years ago | (#37619256)

There haven't been any major conferences on Leibnitz's calculus notation or western music notation lately. Calculus and music must be dead. Oh wait, I had the radio on earlier... hmmm... maybe it is dead.

Re:And they said Java was dead! (5, Insightful)

lolcutusofbong (2041610) | about 3 years ago | (#37619424)

If you want to talk about dead platforms, look no further than Perl.

I love the fact that you're posting this on Slashdot.

Re:And they said Java was dead! (1)

Eskarel (565631) | about 3 years ago | (#37622568)

Java was never dead, it was merely on life support. The time gap between Java 6 and Java 7 was in the vicinity of 4 years which is an eternity in programming and gave Microsoft the opportunity to gain a substantial lead on Java. Sun went out of business and nothing whatever could get past the JCP for approval. What with Sun going titsup and Oracle creating plenty of bad blood in the community it was a coin flip if any new version of the Java standard would ever be approved at all. A few months ago, Oracle proved it could get something past the JCP(even if Java 7 is incredibly underwhelming), and in doing so proved that Java wasn't going to die in the short term. That's certain now, but it was by no means certain a few months ago.

Desktop (1)

Atzanteol (99067) | about 3 years ago | (#37618632)

Still no love for Java on the desktop?

Re:Desktop (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 years ago | (#37618660)

JavaFX is love for the desktop.

Re:Desktop (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 years ago | (#37618680)

Java on the desktop == monster fail. Not to mention the JVM is probably one of the biggest security holes on any OS behind Flash.

Re:Desktop (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 years ago | (#37618764)

C++ on the desktop == monster fail. Not to mention the GCC is probably one of the biggest security holes on any OS behind Flash.

Seems legit.

Re:Desktop (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 years ago | (#37619016)

C++ on the desktop == monster fail.

Wow, what a great comeback. Did you strain your pea-brain for that entire 10 minutes coming up with it? Because it was a pretty pathetic effort.

Not to mention the GCC is probably one of the biggest security holes on any OS behind Flash.

What does that even mean?

Your post is serious weaksauce.

Re:Desktop (1)

GoblinKing (6434) | about 3 years ago | (#37619094)

He means, and this is my assumption, that running Java applications on the desktop via the JVM is no less secure than running natively compiled code on the desktop. Perhaps a better definition of where the security "holes" are located and/or transported would be a more enlightening discourse (applets? browser JVM integration? JNLP?)

Re:Desktop (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 years ago | (#37619296)

No, he's mostly an idiotic java weenie doing a cut-and-paste attempt a comeback that was pretty shitty. And his comeback doesn't even make sense since GCC isn't even a resident process when you run a native code application so the attempt at making an analogy between the two fails pretty hard.

Re:Desktop (1)

binarylarry (1338699) | about 3 years ago | (#37619328)

I'm not the original poster, but having gcc on a machine is indeed a potentially security problem.

I'm not sure what the original poster is talking about.

The JVM has had a few security issues now and again but the real problem has been the browser plugin (which isn't really related to the JVM/JRE at all). The plugin(s) also suck and Snoracle never cared enough to make them decent or secure.

Re:Desktop (1)

chrb (1083577) | about 3 years ago | (#37619828)

The analogy makes sense. The C and Java JIT compilers produce some kind of executable binary which then gets run. There is only one process when the binary is executed, regardless of platform. With non-JIT Java you might have a point about there being an interpreter layer (what you refer to as a "process"). But with JIT, the code is compiled before execution just like C++. In terms of security there is no real difference between gcj and gcc. Both require a supporting runtime environment, both have potential security problems in the runtime environment, and in compiled code. Perhaps you meant to point out that the JVM can be used to run applets on the web, but that is not something that is intrinsic to Java - DirectX code can be written in C++ and can also be insecure.

Re:Desktop (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 years ago | (#37622640)

Any non-restricted binary (GCC usually produces those) more access to the underlying space than one run on a JVM. The comment against the JVM was weak. It was successfully shown to be such in an appropriately mocking way.

Re:Desktop (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 years ago | (#37619720)

Not quite right, but close.
The closest GCC has to a VM is the standard library. The OP was bemoaning the JVM has security holes, not the code that the application author wrote. There's probably equal probability finding security holes in the JVM and C++ application code, but I would guess that there are fewer security holes in GCC's runtime libs then either.

Re:Desktop (1)

julesh (229690) | about 3 years ago | (#37618886)

I fail to see how having a JVM is any more of a security hole than having the ability to execute native code.

Desktop java != applets.

Re:Desktop (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 years ago | (#37619010)

That's fine in theory. The problem isn't the theory though. The problem is the implementation of Sun / Oracle JAVA is full of security bugs. And Oracle doesn't patch them; they only do new full versions. And those new full versions always break some existing apps in ways that require the developers to put out fixes. So you are always stuck either running the known vulnerable version of Java or having some of your critical enterprise applications not run. It is a nightmare on the desktop. Not because a JVM is a bad idea. Because Oracle JRE is bad code.

Re:Desktop (1)

PhrstBrn (751463) | about 3 years ago | (#37619274)

That's fine in theory. The problem isn't the theory though. The problem is the implementation of Sun / Oracle JAVA is full of security bugs. And Oracle doesn't patch them; they only do new full versions. And those new full versions always break some existing apps in ways that require the developers to put out fixes. So you are always stuck either running the known vulnerable version of Java or having some of your critical enterprise applications not run. It is a nightmare on the desktop. Not because a JVM is a bad idea. Because Oracle JRE is bad code.

programs are full of security holes because I can run any app I want and it can exploit my system and fails to fix them.

I don't understand what you are saying either. Because desktop java isn't a security "magic bullet" doesn't mean it's crap. Don't use it to run untrusted code. Native applications have the same problem with untrusted code, as do interpreted languages and everything else that runs on a computer. If you want safe computing, unplug your computer and go outside.

Source? (5, Informative)

trims (10010) | about 3 years ago | (#37619352)

Please. The Oracle (formerly Sun) JVM is not "full of holes". And, Oracle does patch them - what do you think all those Update release are for? Oh, you wanted a patch for just that specific fix into a given (random) Update release, did you? Do you have any experience in managing such a project as the JVM? Point patches are a massive headache to manage - so much so, that while I was at Oracle (in the very JVM group you disparage), we couldn't find a reasonable way to manage point patches well on even the paying customers. And, I worked with a bunch of folks far smarter than the average programmer.

I was in the Sun JVM group for over 7 years (2004-2011). In that time, there were only 3 "critical" exploits published for the JVM, and less than a dozen for the entire JDK. There were more than that for "serious" bugs/problems, but those weren't security breaches (which, were, by definition, an exploit). I should know, I was the Gatekeeper for the JVM.

Newer versions (i.e. 4.1.2 -> 5 -> 6 -> 7 ) do certainly break a non-trivial number of older apps, and require fixes. Updates to a given release (i.e. 6u10 -> 6u20) do very occasionally break something if you jump a large number of Update releases; however, most of the cases we found in such breakage of apps was the developer's fault in either using an undocumented "feature", a feature which was marked "obsolete", or one which was marked as "unsupported". If you stuck to the documented API of supported features, well, it wasn't absolutely 100% bug-free upgradable, but then again, nothing is, and the JDK has an outstanding track record in that regard.

That's not to say that there aren't problems in both the JVM and JDK. It's just that you obviously don't know what you're talking about in the real world. Don't take my word for it: Google "Sun JVM security (hole OR flaw)" there are a very few links (maybe 2) to flaws in the past 5 years, a bundle of links to stories around 2004-2005 (which are all about the same set of bugs), and then practically everything else is at least 10 years old. Guess what? ALL of those have been fixed, relatively quickly, too.

-Erik

Re:Source? (1)

mswhippingboy (754599) | about 3 years ago | (#37620198)

Thank you. I couldn't agree more. The anti-java rhetoric is always so thick here I've (almost) gotten to the point I skip reading /. comments on java related articles because of the same old FUD.

Re:Source? (1)

ADRA (37398) | about 3 years ago | (#37621476)

Thanks for all the work you guys put into the JVM over the years. I've been quite happy using the JVM. Haters will be haters, and Java's got a lot of haters. It just goes to show that the bigger you get the more polarized people are toward you. Anyways, good luck in whatever you've moved on to and so long, thanks for the fish.

Re:Source? (1)

SplashMyBandit (1543257) | about 3 years ago | (#37621592)

Thanks Erik. Love the JVM and the whole platform. The technology (and security) is amazing considering it works beautifully with all the code I've (properly/conformantly) written over the years through Irix-> Solaris -> Windows32 -> Ubuntu -> MacOS. Hope you are getting all the great life karma you deserve in your new professional life.

Re:Desktop (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 years ago | (#37619282)

I fail to see how having a JVM is any more of a security hole than having the ability to execute native code.

Because the JVM is claimed to provide all this security and sandboxing yet it is itself a huge exploit hole?

Desktop java != applets.

No shit, Sherlock? Whoever said they were the same thing?

Re:Desktop (2)

nurb432 (527695) | about 3 years ago | (#37618794)

Thankfully, no.

Re:Desktop (2)

lehphyro (1465921) | about 3 years ago | (#37619190)

Java + SWT is great for the desktop. The best portable runtime environment with native look and feel. What more do you want on top of that?

Re:Desktop (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 years ago | (#37620182)

SWT performance is terrible. It may have native look and feel, but it sure doesn't perform that way.

Re:Desktop (3, Insightful)

chrb (1083577) | about 3 years ago | (#37620308)

Well, in hindsight it would have been nice if Sun had adopted SWT and its native widgets instead of pushing Swing on the desktop for years and getting nowhere. Yes, I get it, writing a cross-platform native GUI layer that acts the same on every platform is hard, but they had numerous options. They could have bought or licensed QT. They could have adopted SWT. Or wxJava. Or even GTK (like most Mono LInux desktop apps).

It would have been nice if they had open sourced the JDK a decade earlier instead of waiting until they felt the heat from gcj. Java could have been the dominant platform for writing cross-platform desktop apps, instead Sun was pushing applets, and it took until SWT before I saw the first Java desktop app that didn't suck (Eclipse). Imagine my surprise when I found that the second Java desktop app that didn't suck (Azureus) was also based on SWT.

Applications like Eclipse, Azureus, and Banshee show that Java/Mono style languages can do desktop apps, but for whatever reasons the Sun AWT/Swing combination went nowhere. If it were a true open source project I'm sure they would've adopted another GUI widget layer, but they didn't, probably because Sun wanted exclusive ownership rights.

Re:Desktop (5, Insightful)

SplashMyBandit (1543257) | about 3 years ago | (#37621638)

Actually, if you know what you are doing then Swing is second to none (to bad most people don't have enough decent knowledge of Swing to use it effectively). With the Nimbus look-and-feel it is also pretty nice (at least that's what I have heard from the users that are used to fugly Windows apps - that are even more inconsistent than the Java ones).
SWT seems ok until you start to develop it. Then you realise it is awful. Then if you have to develop in SWT off Windows you realise it is even more horrible. Then you have professional projects where you need to extend SWT and you look deep under the covers and realise SWT is really, truly bone-deep-ugly. Then you go back to Swing and life is much, much better - especially ever since Java 1.6u10+ (Nimbus and fully hardware accelerated rendering on multiple platforms).

Re:Desktop (1)

peppepz (1311345) | about 3 years ago | (#37622702)

Java had a native UI layer, it was called AWT, and it really sucked because it exploited the least common denominator of all the platforms that Java supported. So it felt "bolted-on", was hard to use and wasn't flexible. A bit like Java ME. And it's still there if you want to use it, but you really don't want to.

Moreover, using any widget library other than the OS-provided one will result in applications that might look native at a first look, but then will differ in behaviour from true native applications in many subtle ways. Look-and-feel sensitive users will notice that (try selling something not based on Cocoa to Mac users).

Swing is very easy to code for and its integration with Java2D allows for a flexibility I've never seen in other toolkits (e.g. you can draw a button rotated by 27 degrees, a text label mirrored, or add a border around any widget with just a couple lines of code). And it also has a "native" look and feel available.

IMHO, the problem with Swing UIs lies with its response times: often, the first time you use some part of the UI, it will take more time to load and display it than a native widget set would do. From a developer's point of view, instead, I dislike its LayoutManagers: there are a lot of them available, but in my experience for some reason none of them happen to do what I'd like them to do (i.e. placing widgets in a sane and predictable way).

My Plan (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 years ago | (#37618650)

  1. Exclude Java from consideration for any future projects
  2. Develop a plan to migrate existing projects away from Java and Oracle
  3. Develop a contingency plan to deal with Oracle's legal actions
  4. Figure out how to make Android run C#

Re:My Plan (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 years ago | (#37618718)

  1. Exclude Java from consideration for any future projects
  2. Develop a plan to migrate existing projects away from Java and Oracle
  3. Develop a contingency plan to deal with Oracle's legal actions
  4. Figure out how to make Android run C#

So let's see, your plan boils down to:

  1. Make it more expensive to hire programmers for your projects
  2. Double your workload by rewriting everything you've already done
  3. Hire a lawyer and pay her a lot of money to tell you that since you're not using Oracle products, you have no legal issues to worry about.
  4. Invest time and effort in a pipe-dream that, should it actually succeed, will in-fact incur legal actions from Microsoft.

Can I subscribe your newsletter?

Re:My Plan (1)

victorhooi (830021) | about 3 years ago | (#37619724)

heya,

Yeah, Java is firmly entrenched in enterprise, and I don't see massive rewrites happening.

However, that's not to say you can't subtly encourage new projects to go in different directions.

The problem is - what is the best alternative? C# and the .NET family simply lock you into Microsoft.

Personally, I'd love to see Python take hold, but it's still lacking traction in many enterprise settings (although that's changing slowly).

And hmm, why is your lawyer automatically a her? I was always curious whether people's choice of pronouns was directly related or inversely related to their own gender. Would be interesting to a stat analysis on that.

Cheers,
Victor

Re:My Plan (1)

chrb (1083577) | about 3 years ago | (#37620446)

Invest time and effort in a pipe-dream that, should it actually succeed, will in-fact incur legal actions from Microsoft.

Pipe-dream? It already exists: Mono for Android [xamarin.com] , Mono for iPad and iPhone [xamarin.com]

Re:My Plan (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 years ago | (#37618920)

Figure out how to make Android run C#

android.xamarin.com ... there you go ;)

Re:My Plan (1)

rrohbeck (944847) | about 3 years ago | (#37621258)

C#? You must be kidding. Replace the blind overlord with the evil one?

Jack Handy said it best... (0, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 years ago | (#37618722)

"If your keys (language) ever fall into a river of molten lava (Oracle), just let them go, 'cuz man, they're gone!"

It's a trap! (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 years ago | (#37618806)

All of us who work with Oracle databases know this already. What they plan to do is open source just enough to make it attractive, get you dependant and locked in, then charge like a wounded bull. Notice they're open sourcing JavaFX in stages - the first hit is free, kid!

Re:It's a trap! (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 years ago | (#37618964)

All of us who work with Oracle databases know this already. What they plan to do is open source just enough to make it attractive, get you dependant and locked in, then charge like a wounded bull. Notice they're open sourcing JavaFX in stages - the first hit is free, kid!

+1.
In any case Java is dead on the desktop, dead and buried under a 100 feet of concrete and no, JavaFX is not going to bring it back. You can have all the goodness of a declarative language for GUI by going the Qt route (QML language).
And no worries about Oracle.

Re:It's a trap! (1)

mswhippingboy (754599) | about 3 years ago | (#37620400)

I couldn't disagree more.

Android on (or instead of) the desktop is soon to come. The desktop will soon be touch enabled running some follow on to ice-cream sandwich that works well on phones, tablets and the desktop.

Don't think so? Take a look at Windows 8 if you don't think the desktop and touch screen technologies are quickly merging.

While Oracles' legal team is trying to slow down Andriod, its getting it's Java ME inline with SE and JavaFX to make a run for the mobile/tablet/desktop itself.

Java dead on the desktop? - I don't think so.

Re:It's a trap! (1)

afabbro (33948) | about 3 years ago | (#37619422)

All of us who work with Oracle databases know this already.

What are you talking about? The Oracle Database has always had a closed-source, commercial model. Anyone who implemented on Oracle always knew what they were getting.

Re:It's a trap! (3, Informative)

lakeland (218447) | about 3 years ago | (#37619958)

It's more subtle than that.

For instance using standard Oracle is pretty cheap... and it's not until you start to say 'gee, if only we had partitioning these performance problems would go away' that you really get stung.

Then you start doing spatial analysis and find the Spatial features easier to use than the crippled Locator.
Or you try a new database for a new project and because it's still a POC everything is free, until you go live...
Or you upgrade from dual core to quad as part of a regular hardware upgrade - only to find you need to buy twice the licences.
Or you discover that sometimes hardware does fail and you need RAC.

By the time those sort of things happen it's too late to say 'well, it would've been free if only we'd used MS SQL, Postgres or any other vendor'. Oracle's sting isn't the initial purchase price.

Also, have you ever tried running a system outside support & maintenance? I know a number of companies that keep extra Oracle licences around because they don't dare repurchase them if they ever do end up needing them.

Re:It's a trap! (1)

ADRA (37398) | about 3 years ago | (#37621498)

They have a business model that makes them a f**k ton of money and love em or hate em, they're still one if not the best database on the market. If you really don't like paying a TON of money for a database, I recommend not using Oracle. If you want a database that "Just works" and well, use Oracle.

Re:It's a trap! (1)

ADRA (37398) | about 3 years ago | (#37621512)

Actually, I'll amend that, sometimes Oracle can be a real bitch to setup / configure, but I guess if you can afford an Oracle DB then you can afford a decent DBA to manage it...

Re:It's a trap! (1)

lakeland (218447) | about 3 years ago | (#37621620)

Yep, I'll give you that (with the caveat about a DBA which you noted).

The thing which has burned me in the past is I've been able to afford to run a basic Oracle DB, but not to add on things like RAC - so I'm left without features which I would've been able to afford had I gone SQL Server.

Re:It's a trap! (1)

SplashMyBandit (1543257) | about 3 years ago | (#37621662)

Um, Java is already fully open-sourced, before Oracle got their filthy mitts on it. OpenJDK is still alive and well and is pretty much the reference implementation these days (and is identical to the Oracle branded one). You gotta keep current on your reading bro (well, catch up on the last two years at least).

Oracle to sue everybody who uses "free" Java? (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 years ago | (#37618866)

Why stop at Google?

Re:Oracle to sue everybody who uses "free" Java? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 years ago | (#37622378)

Why stop at Google?

Um, maybe because they're the ones who implemented their own not-quite-Java version of the JVM?

Google is not being sued simply for "using" Java.

Java (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 years ago | (#37618986)

Hope that java will not be another WebOs forgot by everyone.

Ademir Parmezan

Upshot (1)

the eric conspiracy (20178) | about 3 years ago | (#37618996)

So basically they are working on everything except what really matters, Java 8.

Re:Upshot (5, Interesting)

trims (10010) | about 3 years ago | (#37619466)

Actually, I'd argue that JDK 8 isn't that important right now. People are still adjusting to JDK 7, and fixing the issues with JDK 7 should have a higher priority than doing all new stuff for JDK 8. Especially since there are very few features slated for 8 that are of broad immediate appeal. Honestly, I was never a believer than less than 2 years between major JDK releases was a good idea. It takes at least a couple of years for vendors to move to the new JDK, and stabilization of a release takes awhile (as the user base of the JDK is enormous, and there's no substitute for real-world running of apps to shake out bugs in the JDK).

JDK 7 was released 2 months ago. Focusing on making that a better product, rather than jump right into spending all their effort on a future release is, IMHO, the more responsible use of limited resources.

Of course, nothing is preventing community work on OpenJDK 8.

-Erik

Re:Upshot (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 years ago | (#37621416)

Of course, nothing is preventing community work on OpenJDK 8.

Nothing except that the open source jvms are intended to run the same code as the official sun/oracle one?

Re:Upshot (1)

trims (10010) | about 3 years ago | (#37622462)

Umm... you do know that the reference OpenJDK is 99% of the Oracle JDK? If it makes it into the OpenJDK, it goes into the Oracle JDK? That both will always run the same code?

Right... (1)

Corson (746347) | about 3 years ago | (#37619006)

But notice that both the Microsoft and Apple monopolies absolutely hate apps that require any third party runtime in order to run on their respective platforms. For now, Adobe's AIR / Flash is in the fry pan and Java may be next. Not to mention that Oracle have a history of violence with a number of companies and people. Java may still have a future on servers, but on desktops/notebooks/tables/smartphones? Just hit the eject button.

Re:Right... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 years ago | (#37619070)

Did it ever have a future on desktops/notebooks/tables/smartphones?

Re:Right... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 years ago | (#37621660)

Remember, Java first showed up in the 90s. At the time, there were more processor architectures in serious play. SGI had used the Motorola chips, then later MIPS. Apple used Motorola and later Power; they only switched to Intel x86 in 2006. The DEC Alpha was still around. Sun's Sparc hadn't yet been relegated to the server room only. The Itanium was upcoming (though it hadn't actually come out until the 90s were over). A variety of chips were available for set top boxes, also, which was one of Java's original targets.

This made the JVM a lot more of a big deal back then. And that may also further inform memories of why Microsoft tried to break Java's portability; Java was a serious threat for the same reason that Netscape was; if the next wave of Killer App was written in something cross platform, that would have facilitated migration away from Windows. And now, with the rise of ARM on devices that are more powerful than what we had for desktops in the 1990s, a window of opportunity is opening back up as we exit the x86 desert wasteland.

Re:Right... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 years ago | (#37619098)

Android ...

Re:Right... (1)

Corson (746347) | about 3 years ago | (#37622364)

Android is Dalvik, not Java. And yes, I agree that Dalvik has a future on Android :)

Re:Right... (1)

sourcerror (1718066) | about 3 years ago | (#37622596)

Dalvik is the runtime. Java is the language.

Re:Right... (1)

lehphyro (1465921) | about 3 years ago | (#37619212)

Android and JavaME are the biggest mobile platforms today so java actually is the biggest winner in tablets, phones, tv cable/over the air boxes, bluray, etc.

Re:Right... (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 years ago | (#37619284)

Java may still have a future on servers, but on desktops/notebooks/tables/smartphones? Just hit the eject button.

The future of desktops / notebooks / tablets / smartphones IS on the server side. And this if we like it or if we don't.

You may have heard of "HTML5" and you may have heard of "The Cloud". You may have heard of that little company having 750 million users called "FaceBook" and that other little company called "Google" providing things like GMail and Google Docs.

Re:Right... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 years ago | (#37619370)

This is true to some extent but there is still a place for offline applications. The future of Desktop applications is web technology driven Desktop projects IMO both offline and cloud. Everything is going to go using web technologies as front ends and Java/.net technologies to drive the data. If you think you can make a Java/C# front end project that will be commonly used in 10 years time, I think your mistaken or it will be that legacy application that everyone hates. I know there are disadvantages to this approach but I think it is the way it is going.

Re:Right... (1)

Corson (746347) | about 3 years ago | (#37622330)

Those of us who were born yesterday know that the client/server model has always existed. In the beginning there was the wardrobe-size central processing unit (not to be confused with CPU) in an air-conditioned room and text-based terminals scattered throughout the building. Then the corporate world started using Lotus Notes or Microsoft Outlook for email/calendar/scheduler. Such tools rely on servers to run but user machines must have pretty good specs for the client software to run reasonably fast. For example, two years ago my office desktop computer had to be upgraded to 2 GB of RAM and a dual-core AMD 64 X2 @ 2.4 Ghz. The future may be on the server side (affectionately known as "The Cloud") provided users have powerful desktops/notebooks/tablets/smartphones. What has changed is the distance between client and server machines. Add the huge monthly fees that users must pay to read their email on their smartphones.

As for HTML5, before it there were many others: Carbon & Cocoa, Windows Forms, WPF, Gtk, Qt. As exciting as HTML5 may seem it will be "legacy" technology in a couple years.

Facebook is useful if all you want is to share photos, videos, and messages with your "friends". Some call that socializing. But one day I got tired of that and I closed my Facebook account. When I want to socialize I call my friends and we get together for a beer.

We cannot use Gmail or Gdocs at work as the documents we receive from clients (mainly industry) contain confidential information, non disclosure agreements, etc.

Re:Right... (4, Interesting)

QuantumRiff (120817) | about 3 years ago | (#37621334)

Have you tried running a Microsoft App lately without installing the .NET 3.5, 4, 2.2, 1.1, 1.0, and maybe another couple of .Net runtimes? I have a couple of guys at work that are gung ho .NET developers right out of school. And they hate java because you have to install a runtime and its slow.. I laugh every time...

Re:Right... (1)

Corson (746347) | about 3 years ago | (#37622404)

The fact is, .NET is pre-installed on Windows: Windows 7 SP1 now comes with .NET 4.0 (e.g., laptop recently purchased from Dell). Java runtime needs to be installed once and then it will be automatically updated when necessary.... provided it is allowed to do so. On my work computer the sysadmin has set policies that prevent it. In my experience, Java GUI applications do run slower than other programs. I hate that as many programs that I use were developed in Java, mostly by academic developers.

Re:Right... (0)

lennier1 (264730) | about 3 years ago | (#37622536)

Usually an old version is already installed. You need to install additional runtimes, reboot a couple of times and sacrifice a first-born to get newer applications working.

Re:Right... (1)

SplashMyBandit (1543257) | about 3 years ago | (#37621718)

Java isn't going away no matter how much competing corporations would like to change it. Apple's desktop share is still niche (different market to gadgets/phones) so they can be ignored (although JDK runs find on my Lion MacBook). Microsoft desktops all support JVM very well (in fact, that's optimized for that platform). Java in the Enterprise is not going away and neither is Java on the desktop. Remember the company that just eclipsed Microsoft in market cap (that is, IBM), well they are heavily invested in Java (their own version of course, but fully compatible). In short, you're spreading uninformed, inaccurate FUD (at best)/malicious bollox (at worst). Computing is not only the desktop! (and Java works just about everywhere, except in the niches you point out were it is deliberately excluded by corporate policy).

Oracle (1, Insightful)

Dunbal (464142) | about 3 years ago | (#37619196)

At the rate you're going, I will soon be using Java None.

How about (1)

Billly Gates (198444) | about 3 years ago | (#37619854)

Fix your security holes first!

Just earlier today it was announced on slashdot that Java exploits count for 10x as much exploits than IE. That is seriously terrible

Re:How about (1)

SplashMyBandit (1543257) | about 3 years ago | (#37621726)

Java or JavaScript? I guess you don't even know the difference, rofl.

Re:How about (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 years ago | (#37621774)

While I didn't bother to check I think it's safe to assume that's because almost no one ever bothers to update Java to the latest version.

Re:How about (1)

lennier1 (264730) | about 3 years ago | (#37622540)

Since the Java Updater tries to download a new update every other day I'm not surprised people don't give a shit anymore if the message pops up.

Re:How about (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 years ago | (#37622268)

Fix your security holes first!

Just earlier today it was announced on slashdot that Java exploits count for 10x as much exploits than IE. That is seriously terrible

Pay attention. They did fix their security holes. The article you're referring to explicitly states that the vulnerabilities are in old, unpatched versions of the JRE.

Oh, and your "10x" number is utter bullshit.

Yawn... Oracle killed Java.... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 years ago | (#37622694)

... GO... Google...

Oracle is quickly becoming the kiss-of-death to anything it touches.

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