Is Sony Turning Its Back On CD-Rs? 318
slashdoter asks: "For Christmas my mother got a 5 DVD/CD changer from Sony (model DVP-C660). I hooked it up for her and we both where impressed by the picture and sound quality, anyway for the last year or so I have been using Napster to make CD's of her record collection. Today she put in one of the burned CD's and it would not play. After reading the manual I found the among a list of unsupported formats there was 'CD-R', which really shocked me. Every device in my house playas CD-R's, and I could see this if it was a first generation CD player but the CD-R standard has been out longer than the DVD standard. Is the unit defective or is Sony up to something?" Is there a reason why Sony would make it's DVD player deliberately incompatible with CD-R's which, at first glance, doesn't make much sense.
That's standard. (Score:4)
My Pioneer DV-606D doesn't support CD-Rs either, for what it's worth.
I've actually been wanting a list of players that DO support CD-Rs for a while now. (Besides playing audio CDs, it's useful for VCDs.)
Um, no, it's a DVD player (Score:3)
protect their other business interests (Score:1)
Laser for DVD is different... (Score:3)
Check out http://www.vcdhelp.com for a list of DVD players that can read CD-Rs.
Probably cost (Score:2)
Sharp does the same. (Score:1)
I've had this DVD player for over a year, and I though (I remember hearing this somewhere) that the DVD-reader (which can also read CD's) cannot support the burn marks of a CD-R. Dont know if that's accurate but you aren't alone.
CDRW's (Score:2)
--
Give a man a match, you keep him warm for an evening.
Re: No, that's NOT standard. (Score:1)
Perhaps it is an issue with the laser pickup on the DVD player? I don't know the technology to that depth, but perhaps some EE could enlighten (please no pun) us....
It does make sence when you think like this.... (Score:2)
Cartman: because they're assholes
Me: Oh, yeah that makes sence
Seriously sony have continuously shown they have no interest whatsoever in preserving "fair use" the thinkoholics at sony go.. what are CD-R used for only for pirating music let's not make it work.
Well, Duh. (Score:1)
Expect more of this where that came from. My Apex doesn't play mp3 CD's like my roomate's does, it's pretty much pointless asking why. You know why...
Fist Prost
"We're talking about a planet of helpdesks."
What about their normal CD-Rs? (Score:1)
Piracy (Score:1)
Got a Toshiba dirt cheap, works fine (Score:2)
Different lasers (Score:1)
Re:That's standard. (Score:3)
Couldn't be intentional... (Score:2)
Return it. (Score:2)
And explain the problem politely, but loudly enough for everyone else in line to hear.
--
lasers (Score:2)
1© Reading a CD-R requires one wavelength of laser light©
2© Reading a DVD requires a different wavelength©
3© Sony gets lazy/tries to cut costs and uses a read laser that can't see CD-Rs ¥maybe©
666© Insert SONY/RIAA/MPAA-cracks-down-on-piracy conspiracy theories in between any of the above steps©
-the wunderhorn
NOT piracy prevention, just cheaper parts (Score:5)
Enough your conspiracy theories... (Score:1)
Return it (Score:1)
Sony WILL play CDR's - Use High Quality Media (Score:5)
Same problem with Daewoo (Score:1)
Is there a work around for this problem?
It probably is some sort of new strategy (Score:1)
Sigh...This is Not a Conspiracy (Score:3)
So its not at all a conspiracy by Sony to protect its music industry. Especially considering the fact that Sony makes several MP3 players. [sonystyle.com]
Many CD-Rs "invisible" (link to more) (Score:2)
I just bought a Panasonic. Sony is not alone. (Score:2)
I am afraid I just assumed that it would play the CD-R(W) formats.(I had bought it to replace the 10 year old Yamaha 5 CD changer that played damn near anything shiny and flat I could jam into it) It never mentioned the lack of support for these formats on the box. It wasn't until I RTFM that I saw the extensive list of unsupported formats.
Needless to say, this one is now earmarked as the spare/bedroom unit and the plans for its replacement are in progress.
Ps2 does Cdr, but wont allow them to acces DVD (Score:1)
I can't say I'm surprised (Score:1)
If you don't believe me, look at what they did with the Playstation and Playstation 2s. You have to buy a mod chip or use the swap trick because PSX discs have 0s written in the blocks which CDR and CDRW drives write checksums to.
No conspiracy there (Score:1)
That obviously increases cost and I guess could impact reliability. AFAIK Sony has never made a player that plays CD-R. Other brands are in that boat too. On the other hand all Pioneer players do, since they have the aforementioned double laser pickup.
To sum it up, it's mainly an engineering decision.
Re:Laser for DVD is different... (Score:1)
Be careful about the color of the disc; it does matter. DVD's and CD-RW's are silver as opposed to CD-R's which are blue. The laser used has trouble with the blue discs unless the player is designed specifically for CD-R's.
You need two lasers to read CDRs on a DVD player (Score:2)
Due to the way that CD-Rs place pits on the CD-R, the laser that reads the data on the CD-R has to be the same wavelength as a standard infrared laser that CD players use.
"Silver" CDs will work with the Red laser that DVD players use, since, while the red laser breaks the spec, the pits on CDs pressed from glass masters are more tolerant of the laser's wavelength.
The DVD players that do work with CD-Rs have to have some extra electronics to work with CD-Rs. Basically, these DVDs have two lasers: one for DVD media, and one for CD and CD-R media.
Anyway, I think I will go to Kuro5hin [kuro5hin.org] now.
- Sam
Don't Forget (Score:1)
First Generation DVD Player Limitations (Score:1)
The Sony DVP-S3000 and DVP-S7000 were the only two players which featured two separate lasers for playback of DVDs and CDs. Other players accomplished the task of playing Audio CDs by using a lens to refocus the single beam. This lens wasn't able to refocus onto CD-R media. There were even reports of CD-R discs getting damaged by placing them in first generation DVD players, although I've never personally seen it happen.
If Sony is trying to cut costs, they may have gone to the same type of cheap single-laser-based optics that prevented all non-Sony first-generation DVD players from playing recordable media.
DVD laser can't read CDR tracks (Score:1)
See the section about DVD and CDR [dvddemystified.com].
most DVD players won't support CDR (Score:2)
i doubt it's a sony (or pioneer, or panasonic, or AIWA) thing. I suspect it's the lasers the DVD players use. those that read CDR may have an additional laser, or else have a different kind than Joe DVD. they also have the tendency to play VCDs, which makes me think it's more than just an anti-piracy thing.
anyhoo, my 2 cents, from having spent many hours researching a good combo DVD player [slashdot.org] (i bought a sony, and i'm returning it for an Apex 703 [apexdigitalinc.com] - 3 disc changer, upgradeable firmware, plus MP3 playback)
The REAL technical reason (Score:2)
Read the box before buying the player. If it doesn't explicitly support CD-R, don't trust it.
Try using a CDRW (Score:1)
________________________________
Sony CD-R playing (Score:1)
man dvdplayer (Score:2)
I suspect that you'll see a lot of dvd players that say they don't support CD-Rs just because it's sort of a fikle media - the quality and playability of the CD may often depend on the quality of writable disc and the manufacturer of the CD burner. Due to such factors, dvd player manufacturers probably don't want to hear about problems relating to CD-Rs, and have to worry about feilding technical support for issues dealing with CD-Rs.
Re:Got a Toshiba dirt cheap, works fine (Score:1)
Re:That's standard. (Score:1)
Sony Music (Score:1)
Philips, on the other hand, sold its record company (forgot which one it was) when it started producing CD-Writers.
Mine's ok, maybe an older model though (Score:1)
both audio cd's and VCD's.
I haven't tried an mp3 CD-R though, and I really wouldn't expect it to work unless I got a player that specifically mentions mp3s, even though the VCD format is mpeg-1 (so the thing does have an mpeg decoder of some type).
Multiple lasers required (Score:1)
It could just be "recording level" (Score:1)
Try different brands of CD-R, or ones burnt on different recorders, perhaps.
I wouldn't put it down to malice ab initio.
FatPhil
-- Real Men Don't Use Porn. -- Morality In Media Billboards
Re:Sigh...This is Not a Conspiracy (Score:2)
Mordred
Anit-trust issues. (Score:2)
Ob Fact I do believe it is most likely a technical laser issue and not a corporate decision. Just getting the issue raised.
Ob Anarchy Note Yes, you can get my music for free (that which I am legally allowed to give away anyway, most of our songs are not OpenLyrics tm). http://www.mp3.com/ozark [mp3.com]. Don't go there and rack up our dollars, just go if you want to listen.
Re: No, that's NOT standard. (Score:3)
Oh and the Apex DVD players are great. The AD660 can read an MPEG 1 or MPEG2 burned straight to a CD-R. No need to format the file as a VCD.
Re:That's standard. (Score:5)
If you say you support CD-R, you imply "anything that's CD-R, if you put it in the machine, we can read it", and you imply that your customer support drones are going to have to say "Funny, it should read your CD-R. Guess you'll have to send it back if it doesn't".
If you say you support CD-Rs of a certain dye type, you then have to educate the consumer about the difference between cyanine and pthallocyanine and all that other stuff. Not bloody likely. C'mon, when CD-R manufacturers change dye formulations on a month-by-month basis, even if your drones could say "Sorry, use only $FOO-stabilized cye CD-Rs", they'd never be able to answer the question "My CD-Rs are from Wal-Mart! Are they $FOO-stabilized?", because nobody knows.
Now... if CD-Rs are "unsupported", they don't have to worry. Some CD-R media types may work. Some may not. Maybe none will. As long as Sony's up-front and says "unsupported", it's up to you to do the research and figure out if your preferred CD-R brand will work or not.
By way of analogy, how many of you have Linux "supported" on your laptop? By your ISP? Or do they merely happen to work with certain Linux configurations, with or without official support?
Many DVD players dont.. (Score:2)
There was no way I was going to lay down $200 for a skipping DVD player. I then bought the Pioneer DV333 which had great reviews. And while the remote is terrible/ugly and the unit itself is not too pretty, it plays like a champ and has had absolutly no problems with skipping. It also supports CDR/W.
If I had my choice I take the looks and remote of the Samsung unit and combine them with the Pioneer engineering for my perfect DVD player. But for now I'll take the good quality of my Pioneer and see what happens in the future. I know that if I was an electronics company, I would support CDR/RW/DVD as I know myself along with a TON others look for that in a player.
--
Scott Miga
suprax@linux.com
Re:NOT piracy prevention, just cheaper parts (Score:2)
The only solution is to produce open-sourced dvd players that are free for everyone.
Re:Um, no, it's a DVD player (Score:2)
People buy 5-changers primarily as a DVD player?
That's a lot of movies to watch in one night.
--
we KNOW it's the laser! (Score:4)
think people.
anyhow, i think it has something to do with the lasers they use in DVD players.
- j
Re: No, that's NOT standard. (Score:5)
He-Ne laser --> 683 nm --> red
Ar-Ion laser --> 514 nm --> green
blue diode laser --> does not exist
Blude diode lasers are in development, but have not quite reached the stage where they are reliable/cheap/mass-producable. The substrate material will eat istelf after ~5 days of use.
I doubt that laser intensity and reflectivity prevent CD-R's from being read by a DVD player. My laptop, which has a toshiba DVD drive, can read CD-R's just fine. It only has one laser. My conclusion from this observation would be that Sony is jerking you around.
-----------------
Yet The PS2 Does..... (Score:5)
Bryan R.
Re:You need two lasers to read CDRs on a DVD playe (Score:2)
Dude, it's an Ask Slashdot. Somebody asked what was going on, Cliff said that he wasn't sure, but that it didn't make sense. No journalistic-integrity problem here.
-Waldo
Sony is notorious for this (Score:2)
Sony is protecting Sony Music (Score:3)
It's the substrate (Score:2)
Besides better tracking DVD's use shorter wavelength lasers so the holes can be smaller. The substrate in CD-R's was designed to be as reflective as possible -- which isn't very -- in the range of wavelengths used by CD players. CD-R's are marginal even in standard CD players; the DVD player sees an even weaker signal than the CD player does because it uses the wrong color light.
It's no more a matter of piracy prevention than the fact that most regular CD players still won't play CD-RW's, which reflect even less light than CD-R's.
Sony doesn't, others do. Yes, there are reasons... (Score:3)
We KNOW it's the laser, Jesus H. Christ on a... (Score:2)
"It's not a conspiracy to prevent piracy, it's just the laser! The laser doesn't pick up CD-R's well, it's just the way it works!"
Did it ever occur to you people that maybe when DVD was being developed, there might have been a conversation that went like this:
Engineer: "Well, this 60nm blue laser we're using works great, EXCEPT it won't read CD-Rs."
Executive: "CD-R? What's that? Is that like a CD?"
Engineer: "Well yeah, it's a recordable CD, so people can write their own CDs. You know, they can backup data, make custom music CDs, whatever."
Executive: "Oh really."
(Later.)
Executive: "Well the engineer said they COULD use another type of laser, or a dual-laser doohickey, so it could read CD-Rs, but, ah, you know how [Hollywood | the music division of our humongous multinational greed-driven conglomerate | the lawyers] is/are about recordable media..."
Executive 2: "Good point. Let's stick with the single blue laser. No copying for you! Muahahaha!"
Executive: "Muahahaha!"
Okay, it probably wasn't that nefarious, but did it ever occur to you that they chose that type of laser PARTIALLY BECAUSE IT CAN'T READ CD-Rs WELL?
Note that I am not claiming that this is what happened, but I find it nearly amazing that no one here even bothered to entertain the possibility.
Frankly, I'm, Impressed (Score:2)
Every device in my house playas (sic) CD-R's
What, the toaster too? And the coffee maker? And the refrigerator? Where can I get ones like that?!
Uh, the newest Sony players do play CDRs now (Score:5)
To repeat: Sony fought supporting CDR playback until now, and have been backed into it by consumer demand.
Remember: the Playstation 2 doesn't play VideoCDs at all, in a market where all other DVD players can play VideoCDs. Sony sells DVDs and CDs. They do resist any technology that erodes those businesses heavily until they're forced to do otherwise.
If you want a DVD player that can play CDRs, CD-RW, VCD, SVCD, XVCD, MP3s and so forth, everybody knows the way to go is with no-name Chinese-made players, because the Chinese domestic market demands these features, so the manufacturers include support for all of the above. VCDs pressed on CDR media are extremely popular in China, and are in fact driving much of the market for players.
it's a purely technical problem.. (Score:5)
RTFM? (Score:5)
Try this: Go to Google [google.com]. Type in "CDR FAQ" [google.com], and press return. Click on the very first returned link. [fadden.com], for the "Andy McFadden's CD-Recordable Frequently Asked Questions." [fadden.com] Read the table of contents, and follow the link to Can DVD players read CD-Rs? [fadden.com]. Read.
It would be really, really nice if the guy who posted to "ask slashdot" had done any homework at all, and found out if there was some "unusual" reason his Sony DVD doesn't work with CD-R disks, such as Sony intentionally not supporting some logical format or if this was just the standard Frequently Asked Question that wouldn't even get into most moderated usenet news groups.
Re:Uh, the newest Sony players do play CDRs now (Score:3)
It is only recently that Sony has offered "cheap" DVD players that omit this feature.
Re: No, that's NOT standard. (Score:2)
Re:Good brands/varieties? (Score:2)
HTH
-Cyclopatra
"We can't all, and some of us don't." -- Eeyore
"Ask Slashdot" (Score:2)
Hmm?
-Omar
Re: No, that's NOT standard. (Score:3)
Bzzzt.
The main reason some (esp 1st gen) DVDs can't read CDRs is precisely to do with the reflectivity. The reflective index of a DVD is typically about 35% that of a (silver) CD. The reflective index of a CDR is.... about 35% that of a (silver) CD.
I did a training course on mobile (in-car) dvd at pioneer a while back, and they were on about just this problem. The newer machines, those with two lasers or with a holographic-laser diode set, have no trouble.
However, this doesn't seem to be the case with Sony on this model. I have never seen a unit list CD-R as a standard not supported, and IMO this has to be aimed at the piracy issue. Sony == Columbia Studios == Sony Music, don't forget.
Ben^3Re:Laser for DVD is different... (Score:2)
Get something with Multi-Read (I think that is what it is called - I am not sure if that only applies to computers) and it should read everything.
As for piracy, some independent artists use CD-Rs. So stopping CD-Rs from working would hurt legitimate users too. I know that hasn't stopped the MPAA, but the consumer electronics companies are better (not because they are nice out of the goodness of their hearts - but because it is, due to market conditions, profitable for them to be nice - it which case almost any corp would be on our side - they don't fight us when they think being on our side will make them money). Sony is in both camps at once (they own Sony pictures and they make MP3 players, go figure ;)- so the economic incentives apply in both directions. Guess it depends on what side of the house makes the most money/is most susceptable to market influence/is closer to the command structure of the corp (CEO, etc).
Re:Sony WILL play CDR's - Use High Quality Media (Score:3)
Take it back and get the Sony 200-disc unit. (Score:2)
By the way, this story scared the living bejesus out of me as I hadn't tried CD-R's in the player until just now. Kinda would have interfered with plan to be a truly evil person by taking all the CD's I bought and copying them so I can listen to them in the car and at home.
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Re:That's standard. (Score:2)
Marantz CD players... (Score:2)
I would highly recommend this changer for anyone concerned about playback of CD-Rs and CD-RWs.
Marantz also makes this beauty:
http://www.marantz.com/db/?MIval=h_product_full&pr od_id=496 [marantz.com]
No, I don't work for Marantz, but I have owned some of their products for quite a while. Great stuff!
Re:Sigh...This is Not a Conspiracy (Score:2)
Most DVD players (that I'm aware of) that support CD-R and CD-RW have a second laser that has a different wavelength. In effort to increase their profit margin certain brands of DVD players forgo adding a second laser mechanism.
So for those of you who want the ability to play burned discs on your DVD player, make sure you read the specs of the next DVD player you buy and make sure it has 2 laser pickups, and you will likely be able to read those CD formats.
And yes, this is no conspiracy, merely Sony saving an extra buck fifty on that player.
Spyky
Re:I just bought a Panasonic. Sony is not alone. (Score:2)
Guess what? The box was right. Now, remember...I was shopping for the cheapest one I could find in stock right away. I only paid something like $180 for the one I wanted. I just figured it was like all the other people are saying: it's just the components used in the box, not some crazy-ass conspiracy.
Now, I'd be pissed if I dropped $500 on a player and it wouldn't play CDR's, but even then I would probably just go trade it in. There's plenty out there that work, so don't get all bent out of shape...just vote with your wallet and buy the one that does what you want.
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Re:That's standard. (Score:2)
No, its not a *hidden* conspiracy. It's an *open* and entirely intentional misfeature.
Re:RTFM? (Score:2)
Refrag
Re: No, that's NOT standard. (Score:2)
Refrag
Re: No, that's NOT standard. (Score:3)
CD-RW/DVD-R already exists in a commercial product (Score:2)
So there is no technical reason it can't be done. Maybe a patent reason though.
www.killyourneighbourforexperiencepoints.com (Score:5)
Maybe its, Ummmh, uh I dunno... maybe it is because sony is the most evil,controlling,$WHORES$ in media & electronics today?
Have we not determined -- through the lessons of BetaMax, MemoryStick & the "we will block it at the ISP, we will block it at the computer, we will block it at your HD" quote from the VP of ?????? we still wonder why SONY would purposely stop CDR playback?
I was in Chicago for NewYears, I went downtown to see the AIBO at the sony store. I purposely (to help interfere with meme propagation) asked the 'Help Desk' if sony made any DVDs without region encoding ((or switchable regions) knowing full well they had none). His reply "Well - sony has a large interest in the media industry and they are worried about protecting their property - they wont even sell CDRs in their PCs because of this".
It is beyond astonishing that
Surely I cant be the only one NOT surprised at this - didnt we already learn that sony is one of the worst IP fucks on the planet? Is anyone surprised that they would do this? Is everyone reading
Its almost depressing to come to this site and read story after story of how sony (and others) repeatedly act this way -- then we get stories like this one -- Is anyone awake or are they caught in a haze of hyper-info that has obliterated their memory and cognative recolection? Why seek information if you are incapable of learning any lessons from it and adjusting your behaviour? I thought that the
WTF - Am I the only one who remembers anymore????
Re:man dvdplayer (Score:2)
Re:www.killyourneighbourforexperiencepoints.com (Score:2)
Did you even bother to verify that statement? Apparently not, because a simple check at sony.com shows that all of their desktop PC models can be ordered with CD-RW drives directly from Sony.
Re:That's standard. (Score:2)
My ISP doesn't support any OS. They successfully communicate with any OS that functions with standard protocols.
For those *outside* the US of A ... (Score:2)
WRONG : Not all DVD players play VideoCD (Score:2)
Remember: the Playstation 2 doesn't play VideoCDs at all, in a market where all other DVD players can play VideoCDs.
My Samsung DVD-905 for one - it will play regular audio CD-R's but barfs horribly when presented with a VideoCD.
Re:NOT piracy prevention, just cheaper parts (Score:2)
--
Re:concerning ps2... unfortunatly off-topic (Score:2)
Bryan R.
Re:That's standard. (Score:2)
My Pioneer DV333 (cheapest Pioneer model -- got it on sale) plays DVD, CD, CDR, and CDRW(haven't tested CDRW). I've successfully encoded episodes of Futurama to VCD (CDR) to watch on my player, and I use CDR-audio all the time.
It's supposed to play SVCD, too, which is cool. I should get off my butt and try that someday (-:
Re: No, that's NOT standard. (Score:2)
The reason the 630nm red laser cannot read a CD-R is simply because the dye is invisible to that spectrum -- CD-R's were designed for 780nm CD drives. However, all DVD players can read CD-RW's -- most do a better job at it than CD-ROM drives.
Your numbers are WAY wrong. (Score:3)
Sony's Dual Discrete optical pickup block has two lasers, one IR and one red. As far as I know, there's absolutely no reason the IR pickup would be capable of picking up CD-RWs but not CD-Rs unless there was some firmware problem/limitation.
You remember how CD-ROM drives a while ago weren't able to read CD-RWs but could read CD-Rs? That's because the firmware didn't know a valid CD could have such a low reflectivity, and assumed there was no disc in the drive (or just plain couldn't read it). However, newer drives will crank up the gain on the photodiode used in the pickup block in order to "see" the very faint reflection from CD-RWs.
I've personally used more than 500 Sony CD-Rs (CDQ-74CN; I buy them by the box of 100 in jewel cases), and they are high quality CD-Rs, but the "XO" moniker is purely marketing hype. Sony CD-Rs are manufactured by Taiyo Yuden and have precisely the same composition of Azo (blue) dye as any other Taiyo Yuden CD-R. (If you don't believe me, get a program that will read the ATIP [absolute time in pregroove] of a CD-R disc, and it will quote the manufacturer as Taiyo Yuden.) Incidentally, Sony CD-RWs are manufactured by Mitsubishi Chemical, if I have my facts straight.
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Speak not from whence you know not... (Score:2)
Pressed CDs are 70% reflective, CD-Rs are 35% reflective, CD-RWs are 5% reflective.
Yes, Sony has a "Dual Discrete optical pickup", which is two pickup blocks in one (two lasers, two lenses, two photodiodes). One is IR, one is red.
Blue lasers cannot currently be mass-produced.
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Re:Not entirely (Score:2)
Re:we KNOW it's the laser! (Score:2)
--
Re:NOT piracy prevention, just cheaper parts (Score:2)
HA! I laugh! Amazon is hemorraging...it can't even turn a profit. Monopoly? Not by a long shot. And I actually find Amazon a whole lot *less* evil than gigantic publishers/distributers (*cough* Barnes and Nobles *cough*).
Re:Many DVD players dont.. (Score:2)
--
Scott Miga
suprax@linux.com
Re:The REAL technical reason (Score:2)
The pickups in regular DVD players are built like the ones in CDs and CD-ROMs. Some DVD players (Apex, for instance) actually use regular IDE DVD-ROM drives. The pickups in laserdiscs are big monsters, but they're still smaller than the first generation LD players (before CD came out!) which use HeNe tubes because they didn't have laser diodes back then.