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.NET Programmers In Demand, Despite MS Moves To Metro

timothy posted more than 2 years ago | from the lagging-indicator dept.

Microsoft 319

mikejuk writes "Are you a newbie programmer looking for a job? It seems your best bet is to opt for .NET. According to technical jobs website Dice.com, companies in the U.S. have posted more than 10,000 positions requesting .NET experience — a 25 percent increase compared to last year's .NET job count. So Microsoft may want us to move on to Metro but the rest of the world seems to want to stay with .NET."

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319 comments

People stay with what they know (1, Redundant)

amiga3D (567632) | more than 2 years ago | (#37654392)

No one likes to set up for one system, put all their resources into learning and developing it, and then have to move to a new one just because MS wants to make more money.

Re:People stay with what they know (2)

Ethanol-fueled (1125189) | more than 2 years ago | (#37654762)

Right, that's why we still have government entities like the VA still using DOS and IE6 applications.

Re:People stay with what they know (3)

kanguro (1237830) | more than 2 years ago | (#37655148)

Metro and winRT are artifacts for tablets and possibly smartphones, including the "bias" to c++. Development for corporate and business in general will be in .NET,WPF, Silverlight and the like for some years to come. You can program for Win8 tablets with .NET if you want, but they want the apps performing for the ARM processors, and they concocted a "runtime" closer to the iron. Microsoft knows the next battle will be on tablets and similar devices, and it will be a fight to the death, so they have made almost a company bid on win8 and metro. But that does not apply to the desktop necessarily. And the desktop will stay for a long time. Android and iOS have not seen real competition because they target different people. Let's see what happens with win8, that will target everybody and possibly every platform. Don't underestimate them.

Confused (5, Insightful)

sourcerror (1718066) | more than 2 years ago | (#37654402)

Isn't Metro just a different GUI library on top of .Net?

Re:Confused (2)

recoiledsnake (879048) | more than 2 years ago | (#37654472)

This is Slashdot, which seems to invent it's own alternate reality when it comes to Microsoft. The headlines and summary spread misinformation, then those are repeated in the comments ad nauseam by the commenters who only get news from Slashdot.

Re:Confused (2)

tech4 (2467692) | more than 2 years ago | (#37654548)

Exactly. Metro is just GUI. In fact, you can use .NET languages to develop for it. Even the article doesn't talk anything about Metro. wtf submitter?

Re:Confused (1, Insightful)

lightknight (213164) | more than 2 years ago | (#37654934)

Metro is not the 'problem.' It's their announced shift to C++ (which pulls resources away from C#, as per the original timeline).

MS saying they want more focus on C++ is a tactful way of saying "we're deprecating C#, fuck you guys." And most of the people who have worked with and promoted MS technologies know how to read between the lines. Since the C# development community is huge for Windows development (extremely large, like it might eclipse C++ in terms of the number of people who actually develop deployed applications with it (not school projects, etc.)), they're essentially destroying a fair portion of their own developer base. Like have the artillery fire on your own supply airports; it's not just dumb, it doesn't make any rational sense.

C++ is fine, but many C/C++ programmers transitioned to C# a long time ago. That's in addition to the people from other languages that got pulled into C#. They choose C# over C/C++ and friends to get away from the inconveniences of those languages. Building an application in an afternoon is a fricking strength; being able to easily debug it is a strength; having Intellisense work and give useful information about a method you need to use just once in your career is a strength. Unless you are building device drivers or building something that isn't on a MS platform, there really isn't a point in using C or C++. Namespaces, bitches, learn to love them. Learn to enjoy strings being a first class primitive with full support, and not having to spend time chasing the '\0' that you forgot. And so on. Unless you're a masochist.

Unfortunately, there's this weird myth that C# programmers suck, but only among people who do not use the language. You'd think that despite the fact that it's a MS technology, C/C++ programmers transitioning to it would have been a strong sign that it's a better f*cking language. And C# isn't just a variant of Java; they are not that similar. I believe C#'s language specc alone has been eating Java for the last two generations.

C# is a core technology that keeps MS afloat. If I were a shareholder, I'd be frightened that they're doing this. Like sell my shares now frightened.

Re:Confused (4, Interesting)

derGoldstein (1494129) | more than 2 years ago | (#37655308)

It's this type of attitude that separates programmers into idiotic "camps". I'm not talking about MS behaving weirdly and making nonsensical decisions -- that's a given. I mean making it sound like C# is oceans apart from modern C++. When you're programming in C++ and STL (along with some Boost, as required), most programs are going to be almost identical in structure. I know this because I've had to port code back and forth from C# to ANSI C++, and apart from some specific, easy-to-isolate areas (like interfacing with the GUI), the structure of the programs remains the same. You should be separating the code that talks with the GUI no matter what language you use, unless your program is heavily intertwined with the GUI (like graphics programs or visualizers).

You should be comfortable using both languages. If you're coming from C# to C++, then check out Accelerated C++ [acceleratedcpp.com], and (some time later) follow that up with this advice [stackoverflow.com].

This isn't like moving from C# to C, it's much closer. Also, you should aim to be a Programmer, rather than a (C++ || Java || C# || Python) Programmer. It'll make your life easier and make you better at your job.

Re:Confused (1)

Eirenarch (1099517) | more than 2 years ago | (#37655394)

It's their announced shift to C++ (which pulls resources away from C#, as per the original timeline)

You made this up which makes the rest of your comment bullshit.

Re:Confused (1)

mikejuk (1801200) | more than 2 years ago | (#37655068)

.NET languages but not the framework. Also if you want to create a component you need to use C++ which is the only language that can do the job.

Re:Confused (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37654648)

This is Slashdot, which seems to invent it's own alternate reality (FULL STOP). The headlines and summary spread misinformation, then those are repeated in the comments ad nauseam by the commenters who only get news from Slashdot.

There, fixed that for you. I'm convinced most Slashdotters have never read a single economics, history, religious, or philosophy book of any practical relevance, let alone a technical reference.

Re:Confused (1)

Tsingi (870990) | more than 2 years ago | (#37654754)

This is Slashdot, which seems to invent it's own alternate reality (FULL STOP). The headlines and summary spread misinformation, then those are repeated in the comments ad nauseam by the commenters who only get news from Slashdot.

There, fixed that for you. I'm convinced most Slashdotters have never read a single economics, history, religious, or philosophy book of any practical relevance, let alone a technical reference.

Those are the only kinds of books I read of late. It gives me a deeper understanding of the world. Which is frankly very depressing these days.

Re:Confused (0)

ultranova (717540) | more than 2 years ago | (#37654936)

I'm convinced most Slashdotters have never read a single economics, history, religious, or philosophy book of any practical relevance, let alone a technical reference.

It's not that you can't come up with any better argument than that to defend your own views on said subjects that's the saddest thing here. No, the saddest thing is that you realized even yourself what a pathethic argument that was well enough to post anonymously, yet still felt compelled to post it.

I cry for you, mr. AC. ;..(

Re:Confused (0)

SerpentMage (13390) | more than 2 years ago | (#37654696)

Sorry it is not just a GUI... It is a new API designed to replace the current .NET API. Think of it as follows, .NET is Swing and WinRT is SWT. Both use Java technologies, but they are not compatible with each other. What makes WinRT a royal pain is that it is low level C++ API. Thus C# becomes a second rate citizen and C++ a first rate citizen and it uses COM technologies. Never thought that would happen in that COM is brought back to life.

The ramification of this is that C++ programmers who feared becoming obsolete now have something to write to instead of the WinAPI. It also means WinAPI is dead and thus things like Wine are history for any new program. As it is a C++ API the binding is going to be difficult to replicate with Wine. C API is much easier to replicate.

Overall this is a lock-in story by Microsoft. It is what it is and personally I think WinRT will fail overall because it means you are completely beholden to the Windows platform!

Re:Confused (1)

Tsingi (870990) | more than 2 years ago | (#37654814)

What makes WinRT a royal pain is that it is low level C++ API. Thus C# becomes a second rate citizen and C++ a first rate citizen

Funny, when Is started my current job, while waiting for permission from on high to build Gnu/Linux tech, I was given a project in MS Managed C++.

It wasn't even close to C++, it was just weird. Thankfully I got the Linux project (That I was hired for) My recommendation was to change the language on that project, not sure if they did.

Re:Confused (1)

lightknight (213164) | more than 2 years ago | (#37654980)

Managed C++ != C#.
Managed C++ is / was a variant of C++, with a garbage collector and some other things bolted on. C# is a new language, with a strong similarity to C++, that also has a garbage collector. Both languages are managed (from a memory standpoint), and I think both compile down to the CLR, but that's kind of it.

I don't know anyone who uses Managed C++ (I created a project in it once, gave up; this was back when I programmed in C++). I use C# all the time.

Managed C++-> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Managed_Extensions_for_C%2B%2B
C# -> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C_Sharp_%28programming_language%29

Re:Confused (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37655326)

We use C++/CLI (which is not the same thing as "Managed C++") to write wrappers between COM stuff and .NET clients. We find we have to solve lots of lifetime issues in that wrapper layer, and we can't rely on tlbimp to do it right.

It's a pain in the neck, really.

Re:Confused (1)

derGoldstein (1494129) | more than 2 years ago | (#37655418)

Similar situation here, except I have to hook up ANSI C++ programs with different GUIs on different OSs. I can use Qt sometimes, but if you interface the code with C++/CLI you get a much smaller file size and a much faster (more responsive) UI. I keep a separate file with a bunch of glue-code that converts between containers like std::string and .Net Strings, along with other relatively low-level conversions. C++/CLI sure is ugly, which is why you want to minimize its use. Whenever you can isolate code as standard C++/STL, do so. Still, using C++/CLI is worth it if you want a responsive UI on Windows.

Re:Confused (2)

Tacvek (948259) | more than 2 years ago | (#37655370)

Managed C++ has long been deprecated in favor of C++/CLI.

C++/CLI is C++ plus a set of extensions to allow intermixing C++ and managed objects. The code is by default compiled to a mixture of managed code and native code. It is by far the easiest way to interface managed and native code, since you do not need to use COM, nor do you need to use p/invoke. (Of course if you don't know C++/CLI it may be easier to use one of those other methods).

There is also the option to generate pure managed code which then uses automatically generated p/invoke calls, and marshaling of managed equivalent structures. The code remains unverifiable, since it uses techniques like raw pointers. The resulting assembly is very unlikely to work on other architecures, due to differences in mangling, alignment, or word sizes.

You also have the option of attempting to generate "safe" verifiable MSIL (managed code), This puts substantial restrictions on the code, but allows the code to be called by other code running under partial trust. This code is potentially portable, but my not be if calls are made to native code.

Re:Confused (1)

jsnipy (913480) | more than 2 years ago | (#37655010)

The problem with all of this is the flawed thinking that everything is desktop centric. Metro is new, along with Windows 8. .Net stretches waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay further than the desktop. This shows the short sighted thinking of many posters, or the fact that they work in shops still rewriting the same software since the 90's.

Re:Confused (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37655210)

"What makes WinRT a royal pain is that it is low level C++ API."

No it isn't. It is a COM api that is projected *with full fidelity* into C++/.Net/javascript.

"Thus C# becomes a second rate citizen"

Again, that's incorrect. C# is a first rate citizen that can both consume and produce WinRT APIs with full fidelity. These APIs use the same data types and operational semantics as normal C# code.

Furthermore, C#/VB actually have an *easier* time consuming WinRT APIs as both those languages have built in support for the 'async' pattern that is prevalent throughout the entire WinRT.

Please stop spreading FUD. You do not have any idea about what you're talking about.

Re:Confused (1)

sourcerror (1718066) | more than 2 years ago | (#37655260)

"Overall this is a lock-in story by Microsoft. It is what it is and personally I think WinRT will fail overall because it means you are completely beholden to the Windows platform"

Well, you can say that about almost all Windows technologies: WPF, Silverlight, PowerShell, Windows Scripting Host, Active Directory, VBA etc.

Re:Confused (1)

Trufagus (1803250) | more than 2 years ago | (#37654710)

The problem is not limited to Microsoft stories.

There are stories on all topics that make no sense. I don't know much about how these stories get selected and edited, but couldn't /. hire editors that know the basics of the technologies so they can weed out stories that are fundamentally wrong or that make no sense?

Re:Confused (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37654794)

"which seems to invent it's own alternate reality when it comes to" using the apostrophe correctly.

Re:Confused (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37654822)

very accurate, slashdotters associate Windows with Win95. And when they see a command prompt they say: "hey!, look Windows still runs on MS-DOS"

Re:Confused (1)

kestasjk (933987) | more than 2 years ago | (#37654572)

That's one way to look at it..

The other way is that Microsoft is failing in its goals, and the populace is rebelling against them by going with a quaint older technology rather than Microsoft's newfangled nonsense, and frankly I am inclined to agree.

(Actually I thought Metro was a GUI design standard.. I don't know much about it but I know it's not a competitor for .NET..)

Re:Confused (1)

lightknight (213164) | more than 2 years ago | (#37654990)

They should have finished pulling things into the new managed classes. They didn't finish. Now it appears they never will. So much for a clean break.

Re:Confused (1)

TheGavster (774657) | more than 2 years ago | (#37654586)

Reading the Wikipedia article on Metro, it doesn't even seem to be an actual UI library, but more of a specific UI design philosophy. I think as long as you emphasize text as the primary design element and break the screen into flat blocks, you could be developing in Scheme using Qt for all Microsoft cares.

Re:Confused (1)

Eirenarch (1099517) | more than 2 years ago | (#37654900)

Let me translate the /. title for you: .NET developers in demand despite Microsoft's switch to .NET (which of course does not make sense but hey why do we cre about sense if wecan frame MS as betraying their devs).

If we need to be exact Metro is the UI style. You can develop Metro style apps on any os with any tech if it allows you to go full screen and allows you to draw UI widgets (like tiles). On Windows Phone 7 the apps are Metro style and are developed using Silverlight (an UI framework for .NET). On Windows 8 they are developed either using HTML and JS (there are Windows Specific JS libraries that allow you to draw the widgets and you can call the new Windows API called WinRT). The other way is to use XAML for UI and C++ or C# for backend. XAML is the UI markup language used by Silverlight so in practice the combination XAML + C# is pretty much the same as Silverlight. The controls for metro style apps provided for C++ are the same (i.e. the Silverlight ones). While Silverlight apps themselves won't run without changes the investment in the technology is 100% portable and is in fact the best investment you could have done if you wanted to develop for Windows 8.

What a stupid headline (5, Insightful)

ilsaloving (1534307) | more than 2 years ago | (#37654404)

Of *course* .NET programmers are demand 'despite the move to metro'. Windows 8 isn't going to be release for at least a year, and Windows shops need software built *now*.

I mean, c'mon... that's not even wrong!

Re:What a stupid headline (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37654430)

The article reeks of an advertisement.

Re:What a stupid headline (1)

mikejuk (1801200) | more than 2 years ago | (#37655102)

The interesting bit is the sudden rise in the demand for .NET. That is more difficult to explain.

.NET Metro (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37654412)

You can write Metro apps in .NET

Metro isnt a replacement for .NET (5, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37654426)

Metro is merely a new style of app interface that can be written using .NET, not a replacement for it.

Also (2)

Sycraft-fu (314770) | more than 2 years ago | (#37654544)

Windows 8 isn't out yet! Right now it is just a developer preview. That means it isn't even in beta yet, it is still effectively alpha, meaning feature incomplete. They just want people to be able to start learning the new development environment that will be coming. It has a long way to go before it is out on the desktop (a year or more). Of course even once it is out, it has a longer way to widespread adoption. It'll be several years before lots of desktops feature Metro.

So why in the hell would businesses be looking for Metro programmers now even if it was a new programming method (which you correctly point out it is not)? They aren't going to suddenly switch all their development to a product that hasn't been released.

And just because it gets released... (1)

scottbomb (1290580) | more than 2 years ago | (#37654800)

...doesn't mean everyone will be using it. Windows 7 is only what, 2 or 3 years old? It's just starting to gain steam but most of the world still runs XP. Once the masses see that the start menu is gone and has been replaced by this huge, gawdy menu that takes up THE_ENTIRE_SCREEN, they won't be in any hurry to upgrade. 8 is going to go over like Win ME.

Re:And just because it gets released... (2)

Sycraft-fu (314770) | more than 2 years ago | (#37654978)

Actually the majority, or rather plurality at this point, do use 7 now. It has overtaken XP. It is enough (when combined with Vista which quite a few people do use) that some games are now coming out that require DirectX 10, which is Vista and 7 only.

But yes, the adoption of Windows 8 will be slow. Even if it is an amazing OS, people will upgrade slowly just because that's how people do things. Some don't like change, others see no reason to spend money if what they have now works. Still others just don't do OS upgrades, a new OS comes with a new computer. Businesses need time to test things and get ready for new deployments.

It'll be several years before 8 (or its successors) form a majority of OSes used.

Re:Also (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37654818)

Also, Windows 8 is a rather crappy developer preview. Seriously. If the retail version is like this there's no way Win 8 will sell at all.

If it aint broke don't fix it (1)

Haedrian (1676506) | more than 2 years ago | (#37654448)

.NET is pretty much a winner in my opinion. There is a heavy demand for it, and if you know C# you pretty much know Java (and vice versa).

I don't know the point in trying to move people off something which works already. Also the new metrosexual UI is garbage and I'm hoping most people will give it a miss, and anyway tech companies aren't generally eager to move off a working system.

Re:If it aint broke don't fix it (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37654524)

Metro is a clear miss when it comes to a UI for a classic mouse and keyboard driven computer. I've tried it, and it sucks from that perspective. I've also tried it on a Samsung slate - and it works well from a touch-only perspective. In both cases, the system seems a bit "disconnected" because they bring along the albatross of the legacy installed base (meaning trying to run apps written for mouse and keyboard input on a slate you get dumped to the Windows desktop which is NOT friendly to touch only devices). MS seems to be making the bet that people will want / need the legacy apps to run on their slate. Apple made the opposite bet by not making the iPad run apps written for OS X.

Re:If it aint broke don't fix it (1)

DeathFromSomewhere (940915) | more than 2 years ago | (#37654574)

You realize the dev preview is in fact only a preview? It's not a final design in any way. You can expect the final product to be better then the preview for both touch and mouse users.

Re:If it aint broke don't fix it (1)

0123456 (636235) | more than 2 years ago | (#37654612)

You can expect the final product to be better then the preview for both touch and mouse users.

Why? Metro sucks by design for desktop users and desktop apps suck by design for tablet users. Pushing Metro on the desktop and desktop apps on tablets shows that Microsoft is in total retard mode.

Re:If it aint broke don't fix it (1)

Mondor (704672) | more than 2 years ago | (#37654786)

Pushing Metro on the desktop and desktop apps on tablets shows that Microsoft is in total retard mode.

Indeed. That's why I hope they won't do that in final release. It appears that WinRT and Metro are pointing at failure and it's worrying to see how easily they kill what was promoted so much. Silverlight, for example.

Re:If it aint broke don't fix it (1)

tech4 (2467692) | more than 2 years ago | (#37654592)

Well guess what, you can still use traditional desktop and desktop apps with Windows 8! Metro is just GUI for tablets and those who want to use it on computer.

Re:If it aint broke don't fix it (1)

scottbomb (1290580) | more than 2 years ago | (#37654848)

Not according to the current beta. I tested it too. Go to the desktop and try to open the start menu. You're back to metro. For those old enough to remember, the start menu was the star of the show when Windows 95 was released. And for good reason. It's useful, customizable, and it doesn't hog your entire screen like metro does. As the above poster pointed out, this is a GUI for a tablet, not a desktop (or laptop) PC.

Re:If it aint broke don't fix it (1)

Missing.Matter (1845576) | more than 2 years ago | (#37655040)

1) It's not a beta. It's a developer preview that may be considered closer to an alpha release.

2) Turning off the metro start menu is a registry edit away. Who knows if that will be changed to a user-accessible check box in the next year+ Windows 8 will be in development

3) Microsoft has collected data that shows people are using the start menu less and less. I mean, in essence, what is the start menu? It has shortcuts to all your programs, a search feature, some folder shortcuts, and the power button. It turns out people are just pinning their programs to the task bar, and end up never even accessing the start menu. The rest of the time it seems people go into the start menu to use the search feature to search their installed apps rather than browse a list. Consequently there re other ways to access search in Windows 8 other than the start menu.

It seems to me that the start menu in Windows 8 is no longer just supposed to be a launcher for applications. You may like it to be that that, and it seems you more or less have the option to keep it that way, or at least there are 1000 app launchers out there for you to choose. But what they seem to be doing is consolidating search, apps, widgets, (which are currently spread across start menu, desktop, taskbar, and system tray). This seems like a useful evolution to me.

Re:If it aint broke don't fix it (0)

0123456 (636235) | more than 2 years ago | (#37655184)

Microsoft has collected data that shows people are using the start menu less and less.

The Start Menu in Windows 7 sucks. So people use it less. So Microsoft say 'people aren't using the start menu as much, so we're going to get rid of it'.

Screw things up then blame the users. It's the Microsoft way.

Re:If it aint broke don't fix it (1)

SpryGuy (206254) | more than 2 years ago | (#37655276)

Wrong. The start menu in Win7 is perfectly fine (more functional than XP in just about every way).

The issue is that the new task bar serves as an excellent launcher and more people are using the task bar, jump-lists, etc.

The start-screen replaces all the functionality of the Start menu and provides a bunch of enhancements as well. For desktop/mouse oriented users, it is currently very rough and not optimized. They've said this as clearly as possible that tehre is a lot of enhancment going on that didn't make it into the developer preview.

I think it's a bit too early to judge just yet. We'll know more when the beta is released, but even I can see that the new start screen will prove useful to even non-touch desktop users.

Re:If it aint broke don't fix it (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37655368)

3) Microsoft has collected data that shows people are using the start menu less and less. I mean, in essence, what is the start menu? It has shortcuts to all your programs, a search feature, some folder shortcuts, and the power button. It turns out people are just pinning their programs to the task bar, and end up never even accessing the start menu. The rest of the time it seems people go into the start menu to use the search feature to search their installed apps rather than browse a list. Consequently there re other ways to access search in Windows 8 other than the start menu.

Is there a measurement bias going on? I tend to disable any auto-reporting function when I have the chance. Less sophisticated users--the ones less inclined to use the start menu--would also be less likely to disable to disable a software phone-home function than would more experienced users.

Re:If it aint broke don't fix it (1)

Missing.Matter (1845576) | more than 2 years ago | (#37655046)

Metro isn't touch only. The Zune software was pretty much the first metro-style app and it works brilliantly with keyboard/mouse.

Re:If it aint broke don't fix it (1)

kestasjk (933987) | more than 2 years ago | (#37654646)

You sound afraid of change..
  • Metro is good, the move towards it is because it's better,
  • C# and Metro don't compete (like Java and Swing don't compete),
  • people said the same thing about .NET ("what's wrong with COM+?" they might have asked),
  • people say the same thing about everything,
  • working systems don't work when no-one wants them because they use obsolete technology.

Re:If it aint broke don't fix it (1)

Haedrian (1676506) | more than 2 years ago | (#37654704)

  • Metro is good, the move towards it is because it's better,

Like the move to the newer FB interfaces right? Or Unity. Or GNOME 3.

The move towards it is because whoever is in charge of product development said so.

C# and Metro don't compete (like Java and Swing don't compete),

Wasn't it written in another article that Metro would be programmable in HTML 5 ? That looks like competition to me.

Re:If it aint broke don't fix it (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37654804)

Metro is the design style, not an API. The actual API, called WinRT, can be programmed in native code (C++), the CLR (C#, VB, F#, IronPython, etc.) and Javascript. It uses an interface definition file to hide the COM calls. The new API is basically a subset of the .NET API with additions to make it easier for the Metro style and subtractions due to the sandboxing.

Re:If it aint broke don't fix it (1)

scottbomb (1290580) | more than 2 years ago | (#37654884)

"Better" in what way exactly?

The masses are embracing Win 7 because it brought some really cool new features and it's rock-solid-stable. I don't recall reading any bad reviews of it. I don't remember ANYONE saying stuff like "WTF is this garbage? I'm sticking with XP!" People aren't afraid of change when they like the change. Win 8 on the other hand? Very few positive reviews (except from those who tested it on a tablet). It's a TABLET INTERFACE that Microsoft is shoving onto a PC. How the hell is that supposed to make it "better"? The folks at Canonical are guilty of pulling the same crap with Unity on Ubuntu. At least over there, I'm free to use whatever UI I want.

Re:If it aint broke don't fix it (1)

0123456 (636235) | more than 2 years ago | (#37655132)

The masses are embracing Win 7 because it brought some really cool new features and it's rock-solid-stable. I don't recall reading any bad reviews of it.

The masses are embracing Win 7 because it came on their PC and doesn't suck as bad as Vista did. I have Windows 7 on my laptop and while I only boot into it every few weeks to play a game that doesn't run in Wine, I've yet to see a 'really cool new feature' that wasn't in XP.

I agree with you about Windows 8 though, it seems to be Vista++. Maybe Windows 9 will actually separate the desktop and tablet versions and be worth using again.

Re:If it aint broke don't fix it (1)

SpryGuy (206254) | more than 2 years ago | (#37655304)

You have yet to see any feature that is cool in Win7 that wasn't in XP? Seriously?

Drag-and-drop re-arranging of taskbar buttons

Jump-lists with most-recently-used documents and other quick featuers (app doesn't need to be running to use them!)

Areo snap (snap to left/right, snap-to-full-height) makes window management much easier.

Tons of new short-cut keys (especially useful are the ones for hadningling projectors and secondary screens: Win-P)

Improved search and Start-Menu-Search.

Vastly simplified "Homegroup" networking.

Full 64-bit support (not that half-assed WinXP64 crap).

"Play to" for playing media to other devices (Win7 or even XBox extender devices) and remote media streaming.

And that's just off the top of my head... I know that every time I have to sit at an XP machine now, it feels like going back into the dark ages and having to use stone knives and bear skins to get anything done.

Re:If it aint broke don't fix it (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37654688)

If it is that similar then why didn't M$ choose to use Java instead? Because that is what gives M$ and .NET such a bad rep. And of course that it only runs on M$ controlled platforms, rapidly becoming obsolete.

.NET (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37654460)

Metro replace .NET? Maybe you meant to say Silverlight, WPF, or Winforms. .NET is far too general a word.

No Surprise... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37654474)

The are still people using VB6...

Quite crappy headline (5, Informative)

giuseppemag (1100721) | more than 2 years ago | (#37654498)

Metro is a UI on top of Windows 8.

WinRT is the new Windows 8 runtime, which will be accessible by C++, C# and any .Net language. The .Net standard libraries will be available for Windows 8 Desktop applications but not for Metro applications, which will be written targeting WinRT.

So, the summary is wrong because:
a) Metro is not a development framework
b) .Net-related skills remain central in Windows 8 even when targeting Metro

Re:Quite crappy headline (1)

sourcerror (1718066) | more than 2 years ago | (#37654566)

You mean we can write C# applications using Metro that runs on tablets, but with a leaner C# library? Or if you want to target a tablet, you have to write C++? (I consider the latter less likely. )

Re:Quite crappy headline (1)

giuseppemag (1100721) | more than 2 years ago | (#37654606)

C# for tablets, yes; C++ for tablets, yes as well. They won't make the same mistake they made with WP7: you want to go native, you can, you don't, you can too :)

Re:Quite crappy headline (5, Informative)

westlake (615356) | more than 2 years ago | (#37654860)

WinRT is the new Windows 8 runtime, which will be accessible by C++, C# and any .Net language.

WinRT demystified [tirania.org] [Miguel de Icaza]

WinRT is a new set of APIs that have the following properties:

It implements the new Metro look.
Has a simple UI programming model for Windows developers (You do not need to learn Win32, what an HDC, WndProc or LPARAM is).
It exposes the WPF/Silverlight XAML UI model to developers.
The APIs are all designed to be asynchronous.
It is a sandboxed API, designed for creating self-contained, AppStore-ready applications. You wont get everything you want to create for example Backup Software or Hard Disk Partitioning software.
WinRT wraps both the new UI system as well as old Win32 APIs and it happens that this implementation is based on top of COM.

Some developers are confused as to whether .NET is there or not in the first place, as not all of the .NET APIs are present (File I/O, Sockets), many were moved and others were introduced to integrate with WinRT.

When you use C# and VB, you are using the full .NET framework. But they have chosen to expose a smaller subset of the API to developers to push the new vision for Windows 8.

And this new vision includes safety/sandboxed systems and asynchronous programming. This is why you do not get direct file system access or socket access and why synchronous APIs that you were used to consuming are not exposed.

Now, you notice that I said "exposed" and not "gone".

What they did was that they only exposed to the compiler a set of APIs when you target the Metro profile.

You might be thinking that you can use some trick (referencing the GAC library instead of the compiler reference or using reflection to get to private APIs, or P/Invoking into Win32). But all of those uses will be caught by AppStore review application and you wont be able to publish your app through Microsoft's store.

You can still do whatever ugly hack you please on your system. It just wont be possible to publish that through the AppStore.

Re:Quite crappy headline (3, Informative)

ljw1004 (764174) | more than 2 years ago | (#37655002)

That's not quite right.

The .NET standard libraries exist in several profiles -- "Core", "Client", "Full".

People today write their libraries under the "Core" profile so that they work equally well on any platform -- Silverlight, desktop, phone. Core contains the common standard libraries -- e.g. things like StringBuilder, LINQ, generic collections, and the other day-to-day programming side. "Client Profile" also contains UI stuff, and "Full Profile" also contains server stuff.

For Metro, you will use APIs from both .NET Core Profile and from WinRT. WinRT will provide things like local storage APIs and UI. Core Profile will provide all the other stuff.

NB. I'm on the C#/VB language design team at Microsoft.

Re:Quite crappy headline (1)

giuseppemag (1100721) | more than 2 years ago | (#37655088)

I can't see where I wasn't quite right: WinRT is a new runtime that is fully accessible from both C++ and .Net languages. Where am I wrong?

who will want metro with it's lock down? (2)

Joe_Dragon (2206452) | more than 2 years ago | (#37654528)

The windows 8 only is a big trun off.

And the Must be in app store is a other killer as well. No way adobe will give MS 30% the cost of the CS pack just to have a Metro Photoshop.

Re:who will want metro with it's lock down? (1)

gl4ss (559668) | more than 2 years ago | (#37655266)

oh they will.

bigger question is who wants metro photoshop when they could have the real tool instead? kindergarten?

10+ years? (1)

user-hostile (1177051) | more than 2 years ago | (#37654558)

From the article's resumes pie chart: experience with .NET -- 10+ years? .NET 1.0 was released in 2002. Hmm.

Re:10+ years? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37654638)

They did have an open beta of ASP.NET prior to 1.0, and you were allowed to use it for production purposes. Summer/Fall 2001 timeframe from what I (vaguely) remember.

But yes, silly requirement, as if having 10 years experience automatically makes someone better than someone with 'only' 9 years

It really is a more convenient 'visual basic' (1)

RyanFenton (230700) | more than 2 years ago | (#37654584)

Whenever I want to throw together a really quick internal tool, and there isn't a really obvious template program I can use, the .Net framework really is great for:
- drawing up a few texboxes and buttons
- adding a property.settings var so it'll remember its state between uses
- adding a bit of codebehind, doing some interactive debugging (change code as its running)
- then sending it to the user and going through an iteration or two of quick fixes before adding it to our toolset.

Yes, you can do the same with most languages, but it really is enticing to use when you just want a quick tool created.

Ryan Fenton

Metro is .Net (1)

SoopahMan (706062) | more than 2 years ago | (#37654596)

The only valid statement here is .Net developers in demand. By the way, we're one of the companies contributing to that demand - if you're good with ASP.Net, we'd like to hear from you.

Quasi-random knee jerk there, poster? (1)

poofmeisterp (650750) | more than 2 years ago | (#37654610)

Metro was just announced and the demand hasn't caught on, plus .NET is used for a lot more than home-end UI applications.

This post is akin to me hearing that a new form of candy has been developed and almost immediately asking, "The sale of chocolate is going up. There's a new kind of candy out there that needs much development and people are still eating chocolate... and more of it! What is going on?"

The article mentions nothing about Metro anyway. WTF?

*head-desk*

Re:Quasi-random knee jerk there, poster? (0)

joocemann (1273720) | more than 2 years ago | (#37654842)

I'm curious if it is about 10k *new* positions or 10k open ones, hence 10k programmers left their .NET position preemptively, knowing it would be phased out. This could be positive spin on a bad career move.

Re:Quasi-random knee jerk there, poster? (1)

poofmeisterp (650750) | more than 2 years ago | (#37654880)

I'm pretty sure it's self-serving statistical numbers. No company releases information unless they have something to gain from it. Dice wants visitors, I believe. Ad revenue is prime, uh huh, uh huh.

You know what the sickest part is? In TFA, the "Shortage" link points to "marketing.dice.com/...."

I rest my case, your honor :)

how about NEITHER? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37654796)

.NET locks you into Microsoft systems. Why are people so dumb to fall for that sort of thing, when you could use open standards that allow your software to be easily ported to any environment?

Don't be so keen to jump into the golden cage, people. It's not in our best long term interest.

lol (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37654802)

slashdot screwed it up again. they don't understand, but they have OPINIONS. fu slashdot!

For $25K/yr (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37654828)

For $25K/yr.

That's why there are so many H1-b visa approvals. Those jobs pay for crap, on average, so only someone used to non-US living can afford to accept them.

Obviously, I'm understanding the real salaries - probably closer to $40K average, but to live comfortable in a metro area in the USA, $55K+ is needed, IMHO, unless you want to live next to drug dealers and people who bag groceries full time at the local walmart. It isn't enough.

Starting salaries for college grades ready to start programming here are north of $50K/yr. My friends - some writing .NET apps earn over $100K/yr with a few in the $140+K/yr range, but those aren't the jobs posted on Dice or Monster or whatever job site.

Re:For $25K/yr (1)

LordNimon (85072) | more than 2 years ago | (#37655242)

Where are you getting $25/year for software development job? 20 years ago, even a kid fresh out of college would have made more than that. I know, because that's when I got my first development job, and I made more than that.

Say it ain't so! (1)

Dunega (901960) | more than 2 years ago | (#37654988)

Companies want people to work on the things they already have vs the things that are a year away? No way! Color me amazed.

What's the matter Slashdot, not enough Microsoft bashing this week to keep the ad numbers up?

Kinda silly.. (1)

Junta (36770) | more than 2 years ago | (#37655180)

Even assuming Metro stuff was fundamentally not .NET, we are talking about a technology that isn't going to be in anyone's production environment for over a year or two. People have stuff to get done today.

Metro not yet proven (1)

HalAtWork (926717) | more than 2 years ago | (#37655188)

The reason is that Metro has not yet proven itself, and companies are still holding on to the promises of .NET as a stable platform, write once run everywhere, universal look and feel, faster development, and security. That may or may not be the reality, but that's how it was pitched, and that's what the companies believe. They're not going to move their programmers over to a new platform that is unproven in these fields and sacrifice the experience in a platform that they have already invested their code and research into which supposedly already suits their needs. They're just wondering how Metro improves on that, and right now it all seems like hyperbole and pie in the sky promises, not to mention that it has no traction right now in the commercial market.

WANTED: WinRT developer with 10 years of experien. (1)

gl4ss (559668) | more than 2 years ago | (#37655258)

"WANTED: WinRT developer with 10 years of experience!"

sounds pretty fucking stupid, no? of course they're looking for people with .net experience even if they're going to target that newfangled stuff. besides, it's new stuff, the old pro's should be able to pick it up. and wtf do you think the headhunters writing those proxy job adverts know? fucking nothing on top of a fuck nothing nottinghill notter.

it hasn't even come out yet (1)

Bengie (1121981) | more than 2 years ago | (#37655290)

May be no one is posting jobs yet because Win8 won't until late next year. There is effectively zero demand.

Also, Metro is just an API. In the same way you can make a .Net Console or WinForm or WPF or Service, .Net can also target Metro

Relative is easy (1)

m50d (797211) | more than 2 years ago | (#37655348)

25% increase? Pfft. Scala job postings went up ~300% over the same period. The absolute numbers tell more of the story.

Slashdot needs competent editors, not user surveys (4, Insightful)

pdxChris (162827) | more than 2 years ago | (#37655396)

Slashdot just did a survey, that asked whether readers would recommend Slashdot to others. Here is a perfect example of why I answered No to that question, and would have picked Hell No if that option had been in the survey. An increase in job postings for .Net is newsworthy on a "news for nerds" site. Totally ignorant, misinformed, clueless, stupid, arrogant and worthless editorializing, in the article and the headline, is not at all news for nerds, nor is it stuff that matters. Not only is the commentary about Metro completely wrong, so is the "home for newbies" slant. The linked article clearly indicates that more than 70% of resume searches in .Net are for developers with at least four years of experience. Obviously it's impossible to have four years experience with Metro, but it is entirely possible to have been using .Net for a decade now. The article has no mention at all of Metro. The article also mentioned an utterly ignorant, untrue, trite fear of .Net developers: that their skills do not carry over to other platforms. I guess this means a lot of fearful .Net developer who have never heard of Java? Where does Slashdot get the editors to approve this kind of junk?

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