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RIM Server Crash Leaves Millions Without BBM

Soulskill posted more than 2 years ago | from the just-a-minor-snafu dept.

Blackberry 191

Several readers have sent word that "tens of millions of BlackBerry users in Europe, the Middle East and Africa have been unable to receive or send emails and messages through their phones, following an outage at the server systems of parent company Research In Motion." RIM has confirmed that they're aware of the problem and working to restore service. A former RIM employee said to The Guardian, "They didn't start looking at scalability until about 2007, when they had around 8M active devices. The attitude was, 'We're going to grow and grow but making sure our infrastructure can support it isn't a priority.' They have their own clunky infrastructure to do something that you don't really need a clunky infrastructure to do anymore."

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191 comments

The problem with last minute engineering (1)

jd (1658) | more than 2 years ago | (#37671522)

Is that the last minute is either "next year" or "last week" depending on which side of the disaster you're on.

Re:The problem with last minute engineering (1)

alexborges (313924) | more than 2 years ago | (#37674422)

I would say its a problem on not using the right software for the right task. As I understand it, the BBM servers and their email technologies, where built by them or bought and integrated. Had they used a self cooked opensource mash with their own engineering on top of it, perhaps theyd be in a better place right now.

Big outfits should not cook the software they run their services on. They should grab good FOSS, make it better, and implement their added value on top of that. It seems plain obvious to me that the services that dont do what RIM did like facebook, google, yahoo or even microsoft's hotmail and "live" thingies, can compare with others and show their code to the world and share it and be a better service for that...

Im talking about the base infrastructure: why cook your own messaging, if you have many FOSS implementations of messaging protocols? Why transport SAF messages with your own shit when you have three or four great smtp/lmtp implementations out there for which you dont need to pay any kind of licensing?

NIH: thats what killed this thing.

First po$%^ (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37671532)

.....

Just imagine (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37671538)

If Blackerry was still popular.

Re:Just imagine (2)

swanzilla (1458281) | more than 2 years ago | (#37671688)

If Blackerry was still popular.

Or if it happened to BlackBerry....with their 70M subscribers.

Like Apple Messenger? (1)

dopaz (148229) | more than 2 years ago | (#37671556)

Isn't iOS 5 going to feature a very similar "clunky infrastructure" feature?

Re:Like Apple Messenger? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37671588)

We aren't talking about just bbm, but all bes services douche.

Re:Like Apple Messenger? (1)

narcc (412956) | more than 2 years ago | (#37672536)

No, just BIS. From the article:

Many corporate customers said they had not lost service, suggesting that the problem was with Blackberry's BIS consumer systems, rather than its BES enterprise systems.

Re:Like Apple Messenger? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37671610)

Yep. I was just going to post something about that. I can't wait for all the Apptards to come in, praising St. Jobs, and explaining how the great iPhone would never have this happen.

Forgetting that iOS 5 is all cloud-based, and that great new feature on the 4S, the voice assistant, is ALSO all cloud-based. (And not an Apple innovation. Not only did Android have it first, but Apple bought the technology from some other company.)

My guess is that the iPhone 4S servers crash maybe a week after the 4S is actually shipped, and the Apptards find out that maybe a walled garden isn't the nicest place to live after all.

Re:Like Apple Messenger? (1)

Synerg1y (2169962) | more than 2 years ago | (#37671640)

It's never too late for a popular product to tank cause of "new features" .

Not sure how piratebay users would feel using the cloud based storage either.

Re:Like Apple Messenger? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37671868)

Name one apple product that has crashed once a week or once a month. Just one.

That said, fuck the cloud. Fuck it when BB does it, fuck it when apple does it, fuck it when google does it.

Re:Like Apple Messenger? (1)

Man On Pink Corner (1089867) | more than 2 years ago | (#37672022)

Mostly what comes to mind isn't a cloud crash, but the fact that it took Apple something like 3 attempts to write a fucking alarm clock that worked.

Re:Like Apple Messenger? (1)

icebraining (1313345) | more than 2 years ago | (#37672492)

As a Nokia user, I wouldn't say it works yet: it still doesn't activate if the phone is powered off. Apparently having an RTC chip with alarm is something extraordinary.

Re:Like Apple Messenger? (1)

narcc (412956) | more than 2 years ago | (#37672578)

Shhh... That's supposed to be the "one more thing" at the iPhone 5 launch. Don't spoil it!

Re:Like Apple Messenger? (1)

jd2112 (1535857) | more than 2 years ago | (#37673328)

Shhh... That's supposed to be the "one more thing" at the iPhone 5 launch. Don't spoil it!

We don't have to worry about stealing Steve Job's thunder anymore,

Re:Like Apple Messenger? (1)

AvitarX (172628) | more than 2 years ago | (#37673554)

Why would I want it to work if I powered the phone is off?

I don't want my alarm clock to work if I power it off either, that's why I power it off.

Re:Like Apple Messenger? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37672386)

You can NOT compare Voice Actions/Vlingo and Siri.
That Google shit has no AI and is very limited. Voice Actions have existed for iOS since 3.0 but that's not what Siri is about.

"Call parents".... that's what iOS 3.0+ and Android is capable of.
Siri on the other hand is more like the ships computer from Star Trek Next Generation.

"Find a Sushi restaurant near me, reserve a table, schedule lunch with my girlfriend in 1 hour and send her a message".

THAT'S Siri. And no. Android does NOT have this. Not even close.

Buying a company to integrate it's technology into one's own stuff is normal. Google does this, too. All the time.
The keyword is INTEGRATION. And polish.

My guess is : you have no clue what you are talking about.

Have a nice day hatin' fandroid.

Re:Like Apple Messenger? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37672694)

You can NOT compare Voice Actions/Vlingo and Siri.
That Google shit has no AI and is very limited. Voice Actions have existed for iOS since 3.0 but that's not what Siri is about.

I'm not talking about built-in voice commands. (Which have existed on every mobile phone I've ever owned for the past decade - the iPhone seriously didn't get that for three versions? I knew Apple was behind the curve, but I didn't realize they were THAT far behind. Then again, it took them that long to get copy and paste, didn't it?)

I'm talking about third party apps that provide features similar to those Siri does. For example, there was an app released a year ago that does the same things. It was called "Siri."

That's because Apple didn't create Siri. Siri had been available on the App store since 2010, but was removed with the iPhone 4S announcement. (Which means that people with existing iPhones - which support Siri just fine - are having it removed by Apple to force them to upgrade to a new phone whose only other new feature is a slightly better camera.)

The keyword is INTEGRATION. And polish.

You didn't watch the Siri demo, did you? It doesn't integrate with anything, it's its own separate app. It launches with a UI that looks like nothing else on the phone, and does its own thing. That's the complete opposite of "integration" and the only thing "polished" about it is the shine on the little microphone icon.

Not to mention that apps on Android can easily integrate with other apps - even apps developed after they were. Apps on the iPhone cannot - Apple not only doesn't provide any API to do so, they also forbid anyone from developing one on their own.

Re:Like Apple Messenger? (1)

aristotle-dude (626586) | more than 2 years ago | (#37673012)

You can NOT compare Voice Actions/Vlingo and Siri.
That Google shit has no AI and is very limited. Voice Actions have existed for iOS since 3.0 but that's not what Siri is about.

I'm not talking about built-in voice commands. (Which have existed on every mobile phone I've ever owned for the past decade - the iPhone seriously didn't get that for three versions? I knew Apple was behind the curve, but I didn't realize they were THAT far behind. Then again, it took them that long to get copy and paste, didn't it?)

I'm talking about third party apps that provide features similar to those Siri does. For example, there was an app released a year ago that does the same things. It was called "Siri."

That's because Apple didn't create Siri. Siri had been available on the App store since 2010, but was removed with the iPhone 4S announcement. (Which means that people with existing iPhones - which support Siri just fine - are having it removed by Apple to force them to upgrade to a new phone whose only other new feature is a slightly better camera.)

The keyword is INTEGRATION. And polish.

You didn't watch the Siri demo, did you? It doesn't integrate with anything, it's its own separate app. It launches with a UI that looks like nothing else on the phone, and does its own thing. That's the complete opposite of "integration" and the only thing "polished" about it is the shine on the little microphone icon.

Not to mention that apps on Android can easily integrate with other apps - even apps developed after they were. Apps on the iPhone cannot - Apple not only doesn't provide any API to do so, they also forbid anyone from developing one on their own.

Evidently, you did not watch the demo either or you are confusing the Siri app which apple bought out with the Siri feature in iOS 5 build for iPhone 4S. The latter is integrated into the look and feel of iOS 5. It can take over the entire screen but first launches in s similar manner to how the app switcher does taking up the lower portion of the screen with the icons greyed out when you hold down the home button.

Re:Like Apple Messenger? (0)

gstrickler (920733) | more than 2 years ago | (#37673094)

I'm not talking about built-in voice commands. (Which have existed on every mobile phone I've ever owned for the past decade - the iPhone seriously didn't get that for three versions? I knew Apple was behind the curve, but I didn't realize they were THAT far behind. Then again, it took them that long to get copy and paste, didn't it?)

And exactly who implemented copy and paste on a touch screen before Apple did it in iOS 3? Let's see, I think the answer is "no one". Nothing like forgetting history when you try to slam a product/company.

Re:Like Apple Messenger? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37673330)

And exactly who implemented copy and paste on a touch screen before Apple did it in iOS 3? Let's see, I think the answer is "no one". Nothing like forgetting history when you try to slam a product/company.

Well, let's see, Windows CE had copy and paste since, well, always. Although it didn't gain touchscreen support until 3.0, which was released in 2000. But that still predates the iPod, let alone the iPhone. So there's one, and that's off the top of my head.

But we both know that you're going to move the goal posts. Eventually you will find a string of adjectives that limits the answer to the iPhone.

Re:Like Apple Messenger? (1)

Necroman (61604) | more than 2 years ago | (#37671618)

Yes, but I believe you can fallback to SMS with iOS5.

Re:Like Apple Messenger? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37671648)

My BB can still SMS too without BBM

Re:Like Apple Messenger? (1)

afabbro (33948) | more than 2 years ago | (#37671906)

Yes, but I believe you can fallback to SMS with iOS5.

From an iPod?

iMessage works across iOS devices (iPod, iPhone, iPad) and does not require a cellular plan, so on a large number of devices, there is no SMS to fall back on.

Re:Like Apple Messenger? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37672114)

Only if you're on Wifi. Clearly it doesn't have cellular data connectivity. Meaning you can't fall back on SMS. If the servers die, so does iMessage.

Re:Like Apple Messenger? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37672134)

would you really expect devices that don't have a cellular radio to be comparable?

how are they in any different from any message clients on your PC?

the point of the story is BB's have access to SMS yet they can't fall back to it.

that iOS5 can is a positive.

signed

not-normally-one-to-support-apple-and-now-feeling-a-little-ill

Re:Like Apple Messenger? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37672842)

Yes, but I believe you can fallback to SMS with iOS5.

From an iPod?

iMessage works across iOS devices (iPod, iPhone, iPad) and does not require a cellular plan, so on a large number of devices, there is no SMS to fall back on.

If only someone would invent some form of electronic mail delivery system that could be used in such a case...

Re:Like Apple Messenger? (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37671674)

No - if you look in the "service books" of a Blackberry device, you will find a lot of hard-coded IP addresses. This means that RIM is pointing all devices to a single server in a single data center on the end of a single circuit owned by a single provider.

If they had simply used DNS names, they could fail-over on many levels simply by re-pointing DNS.

Some real morons running the show over there. I realized this long ago but was stupid not to short RIMM stock. I guess that makes me just as stupid.

Re:Like Apple Messenger? (3, Informative)

ScrewMaster (602015) | more than 2 years ago | (#37671804)

If they had simply used DNS names, they could fail-over on many levels simply by re-pointing DNS.

Maybe they were worried about DNS poisoning or something like that. Still should be a way to remotely update those "service book" addresses though.

Re:Like Apple Messenger? (1)

secolactico (519805) | more than 2 years ago | (#37674406)

As far as I know, they can push new books to your device so they are probably able to update the existing ones.

Every time you configure a new BES e-mail account, they push a new service book to you.

They probably send you new books every time your device cold-starts (battery pull). I don't know it for sure, but most BB forums recommend fixing missing/incorrect books by doing a battery pull. Of course it could be the usual "did you try turning it off and on again?" voodoo.

Re:Like Apple Messenger? (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37671812)

Hard coded IP means DNS hijacks won't work.
It's a trade off, do you protect against hijacks or server/connection failures?

Re:Like Apple Messenger? (2)

hedwards (940851) | more than 2 years ago | (#37672030)

No, it doesn't mean any such thing. I take it you've never heard of CARP [wikipedia.org] or VRRP. [wikipedia.org]

Re:Like Apple Messenger? (1)

Vanders (110092) | more than 2 years ago | (#37672180)

Yeah, because that IP can't be an endpoint on a pair of HA load balancers.

Re:Like Apple Messenger? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37672416)

On the end of a fiber line that gets cut by Cletus in his backhoe.

At least put two IP addresses in the service book....

Re:Like Apple Messenger? (1)

firex726 (1188453) | more than 2 years ago | (#37672986)

Yea, one IP does not mean one server.

I work in a DC and we regularly deploy server clusters with virtual IPs. Customers can setup a LBer and any number of servers they want behind it.

Re:Like Apple Messenger? (2)

lucm (889690) | more than 2 years ago | (#37672570)

> if you look in the "service books" of a Blackberry device, you will find a lot of hard-coded IP addresses. This means that RIM is pointing all devices to a single server in a single data center on the end of a single circuit owned by a single provider.

Following this "logic", by using DNS it would have been possible to do what, change the single server in that single data center to another single server in another single data center? Or is it only when you use DNS that it becomes possible to do load-balancing and clustering?

> Some real morons running the show over there

Oh yeah, clearly the morons are over there

Re:Like Apple Messenger? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37673004)

No, No it doesn't mean that at all. What your post really means is that you don't know much about TCP/IP and the internet.

They could easily be doing load-balancing or anycasting on those IP's. There could be hundreds of servers behind each IP.

https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Load_balancer [wikimedia.org]
https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Anycast [wikimedia.org]

(I have no idea if RIM actually does this though - I just thought I'd point out that this technology exists and is in widespread use)

Re:Like Apple Messenger? (1)

Moridineas (213502) | more than 2 years ago | (#37671884)

No. The Message app uses the iMessage protocol if available. If not available, it falls back to SMS/MMS. It's completely transparent/unified. The only indicator which message transport is being used is the color of the send button or conversation bubble. My first reaction was similar (how long until we see an iCloud outage), but for this example I don't think Apple has anything to worry about.

The cloud and centralized services are great, huh? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37671672)

...

NoSQL, Baby! (-1, Offtopic)

curmudgeon99 (1040054) | more than 2 years ago | (#37671714)

There are so many juicy choices these days.
Cassandra -- No Master Nodes, huge scalability
MongoDB -- Stores data in the BSON format
Hadoop/HBase -- MapReduce All the way.

In short, there are all kinds of high-scalability choices these days. They should not have to think twice.
(Will be giving a presentation on all the NoSQL dbs January 25th, 2011 [indyjug.net]

Re:NoSQL, Baby! (1)

elbonia (2452474) | more than 2 years ago | (#37671890)

While all of these solutions are scalable they have terrible latency; especially when nodes are failing. RIM probably needs very low latency for it applications.

Re:NoSQL, Baby! (2)

afabbro (33948) | more than 2 years ago | (#37671966)

And, you know, SQL databases, too, since they scale very well.

BTW, why do you jump to the datastore as the scalability problem? It's not mentioned in the article. For all we know, it could be their internal Cisco routers that are overloaded or their WAN links or their 10-year-old Windows 2000 servers or something else.

Re:NoSQL, Baby! (3, Funny)

stinerman (812158) | more than 2 years ago | (#37672076)

He's jumping to the datastore because he can't cunningly fit in a link to his presentation about NoSQL database software if he doesn't.

Re:NoSQL, Baby! (1)

curmudgeon99 (1040054) | more than 2 years ago | (#37672320)

So what? It's a free presentation--I have not placed any ads on the page. It's called context, as in why I have experience to say what I wrote.
Jeez everybody is so suspicious these days. You know, there are some people who don't have to monitize everything they touch. For that matter, all of the NoSQL databases I mentioned are free--nobody is making any coin off of them. My link was harmless.

Re:NoSQL, Baby! (1)

stinerman (812158) | more than 2 years ago | (#37673070)

Oh, chill, dude. Someone who saw the sarcasm tags rated it a +1, Funny.

Best of luck to you on your presentation.

Re:NoSQL, Baby! (1)

curmudgeon99 (1040054) | more than 2 years ago | (#37672296)

In case you haven't heard, relational databases have a dickens of a time scaling horizontally.
The whole point of datastores is scalability.

Re:NoSQL, Baby! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37672562)

In case you haven't heard, relational databases have a dickens of a time scaling horizontally.

I love it when you NoSQL advocates make blatantly false and incorrect claims like that, without even realizing how wrong you are. But I suppose it's not surprising, given that many of you guys haven't even heard of indexes, and have never used a relational database aside from MySQL.

Re:NoSQL, Baby! (1)

curmudgeon99 (1040054) | more than 2 years ago | (#37672714)

Not true, Pal. My first DB was IMS with its hierarchical structure, awesome speed and vomit-inducing PSB blocks. IMS was invented to support the SaturnV rocket. Then I moved on to DB2, supporting a claims table that held 65-million rows and was partitioned up the wazoo. The, of course, I have been through versions 8-11 of Oracle and its awesome SEQUENCES. Then I was forced to use that puke (stolen from Sybase) known as SQLServer (lacking indexes and forcing us to use index-like tables.) I have used MySQL and did not enjoy much about it except for the price.
No, Anonymous-Coward-weak-pussy, I have used all flavors of Relational databases. I know the joy of denormalization and partial dependencies and transitive dependencies. I know how triggers can kill a DB and how partitions can allow indexes to be rebuilt easily.
No, I understand all that--Anonymous-Coward-weak-pussy--and I know that there are simply some situations where relational DBs are just not right.
I think Facebook--which wrote Cassandra (and still uses it for inbox search but now uses HBase, another NoSQL)--knows a few things about global scaling.
So, moron AC-pussy, you are wrong.

Re:NoSQL, Baby! (1)

epine (68316) | more than 2 years ago | (#37673812)

IMS was invented to support the SaturnV rocket.

That takes a lot of IBM printer paper. And the SaturnV supplied its own lift. Nice architectural separation.

Re:NoSQL, Baby! (1)

curmudgeon99 (1040054) | more than 2 years ago | (#37674064)

If I had some mod points for humor, they would all be yours... :)

Re:NoSQL, Baby! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37674026)

This is one of the most unprofessional comments I've ever seen submitted to Slashdot. There's absolutely no need to resort to petty name-calling like you just did.

Re:NoSQL, Baby! (1)

curmudgeon99 (1040054) | more than 2 years ago | (#37674148)

Okay, Anonymous Coward. So, you can't even use your real name to express your indignation? Hah!

P-u-s-s-y!

Your statement was one of the most craven I've ever seen expressed on Slashdot.
Slashdot is not beanbag, pal. It's combat.


Maybe you should go here, where you feel less threatened [go.com]

Re:NoSQL, Baby! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37672352)

Will your presentation be discussing how many NoSQL database systems often corrupt or outright lose data because they don't offer proper ACID support?

Will your presentation be discussing how, in the real world, "eventual consistency" really means "never consistent"?

Will your presentation be discussing how anything but the simplest queries become extremely painful to craft, especially when the only query language available is JavaScript?

Will your presentation be discussing how Cassandra caused significant problems at both reddit and Digg?

Will your presentation be discussing how all NoSQL functionality can easily be implemented using traditional relational database systems?

Will your presentation be discussing how many of the performance problems that NoSQLers have with relational databases are solely due to those NoSQLers not knowing what indexes are, never mind how to use them?

Will your presentation be discussing how many of the scalability problems that NoSQLers have with relational databases are solely due to those NoSQLers not knowing what replication is, never mind how to use it?

If you don't mention such things during your presentation, then you will be deceiving your audience.

Re:NoSQL, Baby! (1)

curmudgeon99 (1040054) | more than 2 years ago | (#37672624)

ACID support is not the goal of NoSQL. So your question is like asking if dirt makes a good bologna sandwich.

Eventual consistency is actually known as Tuneable consistency. You pick how fast you want your data replicated. There is no free lunch.

You are referring to CouchDB methinks. Bit player...

No, my presentation will point out how Facebook to this day uses Cassandra for inbox search. Just because you chose a particular datastore does not mean your architect can check her brain at the door.

Relational databases still fill a need, but because they need to support locking, they are orders of magnitude slower. Cassandra blows away MySQL. Oracle costs a bundle. Relational databases do not scale well horizontally. NoSQL databases--especially Cassandra--do scale well horizontally. No Master Nodes.

So, you're blaming the NoSQL database because its users may not educate themselves on how to use it. Blame the victim much?

Finally, Larry, why oh why did you choose to post this as Anonymous Coward. We know that Oracle is miffed that no startup uses your software, Mr. Ellison, but did you really have to go off half cocked like that?

Larry, I really think you need to go back on your Lithium... your mania is starting to show.

Re:NoSQL, Baby! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37672804)

The GP brings up some serious problems with NoSQL "databases" (that's not really the proper term, since their implementors don't seem to care/know about ACIDity), and you manage to ignore or sidestep every single one of them. Then you go off on some pointless tirade about Larry Ellison. Only somebody hyping NoSQL could consider making billions of dollars selling the relational database system that powers many of the most important software systems ever created to somehow be a "failure".

I hope that you show this entire thread of discussion to the people that you're presenting to. Let them read each and every comment. It'll do a good job of putting your presentation in context. At the very least, it'll inform your audience about some issues that you apparently don't fully understand, and thus seem reluctant to discuss.

Re:NoSQL, Baby! (1)

curmudgeon99 (1040054) | more than 2 years ago | (#37673154)

I addressed each of his points in order. Can't you read? You say that NoSQL doesn't support ACID--when that's part of its design. There is no promise or intention of supporting ACID. If ACID is necessary--use a relational database! So, you think that Facebook is full of idiots? Why on earth would Facebook's engineers choose to base their entire site on NoSQL datastores if they were not useful!

Finally, the bit about Larry Ellision? That's called humor. You know, to laugh? Ha ha? If you don't find it funny that is your choice but obviously that part was intended in jest. I also notice that you--pussy--posted your comment as Anonymous Coward. That speaks volumes. If you felt such righteous indignation--why not stand behind your every opinion, as I have done? Pussy...

What? (4, Insightful)

Oxford_Comma_Lover (1679530) | more than 2 years ago | (#37671720)

Okay, why does a disgruntled ex-employee's rant about scalability and infrastructure come into play before we know that scalability or infrastructure was the cause of the break? Seriously, maybe the taco bell dog just chewed through fiber lines in NY and LA while on tour. Could happen to anybody.

Re:What? (1)

hedwards (940851) | more than 2 years ago | (#37672056)

Given the way that RIM has been running itself out of business, I would be surprised if there weren't something to those assertions. It's definitely possible that it's a disgruntled ex-employee looking to bad mouth his former employers, but by the same token, RIM isn't exactly known for having competent management so a suggestion list this is at least plausible.

Re:What? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37673036)

Seriously, maybe the taco bell dog just chewed through fiber lines in NY and LA while on tour.

The Taco Bell dog died in 2009. http://www.people.com/people/article/0,,20293002,00.html

I suspect this dog is making a comeback. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/75/Pets.com_sockpuppet.jpg

RIM is dead... (2)

vinn (4370) | more than 2 years ago | (#37671726)

... they just don't know it yet. We have 40 Blackberry's in our company, but we purchased our last one about six months ago. I hope BES dies a painful, painful death.

Android, here we come.

Re:RIM is dead... (1)

ScrewMaster (602015) | more than 2 years ago | (#37671778)

... they just don't know it yet.

So, you're saying they've been zombied.

That would explain a lot actually.

Re:RIM is dead... (4, Interesting)

TheRedDuke (1734262) | more than 2 years ago | (#37672124)

Just out of curiosity: how are you going to manage 40 Android devices? Consumers are fleeing RIM, but without some semblance of enterprise management tools, Android really isn't a viable alternative for a larger business or enterprise that needs to lock down/look after/manage lots of devices. You might be able to do it with Windows Phone, but WP7 management options are a shadow of the WP6's. Until there's a real challenger to to the functionality of BES (despite the nightmare), RIM will continue to rear its ugly head.

Re:RIM is dead... (1)

munwin99 (667576) | more than 2 years ago | (#37672224)

SOTI MobiControl is one option. Works OK for us... http://www.soti.net/Mobicontrol/ [soti.net]

Re:RIM is dead... (3, Insightful)

sodul (833177) | more than 2 years ago | (#37672246)

You need 'Enterprise' tools to manage 40 devices ?!? Methinks (and from experience) that you will spend more time and money 'managing' the 'Enterprise' tool than to manage the 40 devices directly.

Re:RIM is dead... (2)

juniorkindergarten (662101) | more than 2 years ago | (#37672584)

The reason for BES is to make sure that employees don't do stupid things and run up the data usage and cell minutes. Enterprises want locked down phones for control and accountability. Without that control corporations won't move from blackberry.

Re:RIM is dead... (1)

sodul (833177) | more than 2 years ago | (#37672702)

I doubt you have a 'corporation' when you have 40 devices. That probably mean you have a 100 employees company/startup where the overhead of fine tune management of devices is not worth it. Once you reach a couple hundred accounts, then yes maybe, at the level above it just gets in the way.

Re:RIM is dead... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37673284)

I doubt you have a 'corporation' when you have 40 devices.

Ummm, I've seen many corporations with fewer employees. In fact, my company has a few subsidiaries (for legal & tax reasons) with less than 5 employees. Some of them have blackberries.

Having been in the IT business for some time, I assure you that managing mobile devices and expecting all users to follow company policy, even if you give people very clear instructions, is very difficult.

Re:RIM is dead... (1)

Wyatt Earp (1029) | more than 2 years ago | (#37672300)

iOS has the same problem, I manage 40 iPads and will be getting 26 more iPod Touches in that mix, they are a pain in the ass to manage, image and deploy.

Re:RIM is dead... (1)

catmistake (814204) | more than 2 years ago | (#37673190)

iOS has the same problem, I manage 40 iPads and will be getting 26 more iPod Touches in that mix, they are a pain in the ass to manage, image and deploy.

Care to expand a little on your frustrations? Sounds more like the task was dumped on you, on top of other previous responsibilities, and because it takes time and you would rather be doing something else, "they are a pain in the ass to manage, image and deploy."

With the right console and software tools, and given the time needed, these devices would seem a dream to other administrators: once deployed, they go out... and never come back. Just how often are you having to support bone fide technical issues, apart from training new users? How many iDevices come back to you because they get spontaneously reconfigured, or get a virus, or, over time, get sluggish and unusable?

I think you may want to step back from the tasks for a minute, remove personal bias, and attempt to be objective. They're just computers, don't take it personally that they work under a paradigm that you are not comfortable with yet.

Re:RIM is dead... (2)

sydsavage (453743) | more than 2 years ago | (#37672400)

A quick google of 'Android Enterprise Management' returned some potential solutions:

Zenprise [zenprise.com]
Good for Enterprise [good.com]
3LM [pcworld.com]

Those were the top three. I'm sure there's more, including RIM's own Android management solution.

Re:RIM is dead... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37672730)

Oh I dunno, Exchange seems to do resonably well.

Re:RIM is dead... (1)

jo42 (227475) | more than 2 years ago | (#37672786)

how are you going to manage 40 Android devices?

'roid is open source! You write your own mis-management tools. Duh.

Re:RIM is dead... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37673114)

... they just don't know it yet. We have 40 Blackberry's in our company, but we purchased our last one about six months ago. I hope BES dies a painful, painful death.

Ummm, maybe you should take a course on how to manage a BES (blackberry enterprise server). RIM has very affordable online courses, or you could take a conventional course. RIM even gives you a discount when you buy a BES.

Having managed blackberries for many years, you should know that "blackberry issues" are often actually issues with the underlying email system (exchange/notes/groupwise).

Single point of failure... (1)

Bert64 (520050) | more than 2 years ago | (#37671808)

Thats the problem with blackberry devices depending on RIM for service...

Your mobile operator could fail, but theres more than one operator...
Your own email server could fail, but your in control of this yourself and can take steps to fix it... Plus, it only affects you and not anyone else, you have a choice of email providers and if you run the server yourself its your own fault if it fails.

You are stuck with RIM service if you want a blackberry handset, you don't have a choice unless you switch to a different type of handset.

Re:Single point of failure... (3, Informative)

pnewhook (788591) | more than 2 years ago | (#37672032)

You are stuck with RIM service if you want a blackberry handset, you don't have a choice unless you switch to a different type of handset.

Complete nonsense. Even without RIM service, it still functions as a phone, internet access, and SMS text messaging. Basically everything you use a smartphone for. You just dont have access to the secure RIM enterprise data and messaging services. Neither does any non BB device, so basically the BB just downgrades to a standard smartphone.

Re:Single point of failure... (1)

fedcb22 (1215744) | more than 2 years ago | (#37672448)

Except, you can't get email. That's kinda a big point for a smartphone. Not to mention that some applications (like WhatsApp) are hard coded to use BIS, even if you're connected to WiFi or have a normal data plan.

CLOUD suckage (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37672116)

One word: CLOUD!

And you wonder why the shit fails and brings everyone down. Its the nature of cloud service crap.

It's as if millions cried out (2)

charleyb123 (618476) | more than 2 years ago | (#37671810)

It's as if millions of souls cried out ... and were suddenly silenced.

Re:It's as if millions cried out (2)

Moridineas (213502) | more than 2 years ago | (#37671914)

...and the Babylon 5 fans come out of the woodwork. As if BlackBerry fans weren't annoying enough to begin with!

Re:It's as if millions cried out (4, Funny)

pnewhook (788591) | more than 2 years ago | (#37672142)

Banylon 5???! I think you just lost your right to be on Slashdot.

Re:It's as if millions cried out (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37672606)

Banylon 5???! I think you just lost your right to be on Slashdot.

I think he meant Deep Space Nine

Re:It's as if millions cried out (1)

Moridineas (213502) | more than 2 years ago | (#37672988)

Oh right Deep Space 9...my mistake. Truly one of the more moving lines ever uttered by Commander Cisco.

Re:It's as if millions cried out (1)

gmhowell (26755) | more than 2 years ago | (#37673144)

Banylon 5???! I think you just lost your right to be on Slashdot.

I think he meant Deep Space Nine

The Lost Saucer [wikipedia.org] most likely.

Re:It's as if millions cried out (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37673432)

Banylon 5???! I think you just lost your right to be on Slashdot.

I think YOU just lost your right to be on Slashdot! Banylon???!

Re:It's as if millions cried out (1)

afabbro (33948) | more than 2 years ago | (#37672024)

It's as if millions of souls cried out ... and were suddenly silenced.

Blackberry users have no souls. They're all PHBs.

Re:It's as if millions cried out (1)

bobstreo (1320787) | more than 2 years ago | (#37672240)

and nobody really cared

Epic Fail (1)

sehlat (180760) | more than 2 years ago | (#37671830)

The company books ONLY show how expensive providing good service is. They don't show the enormous losses when inadequate investment in support infrastructure collapses.

Value and Loss (1)

sexconker (1179573) | more than 2 years ago | (#37671958)

Nothing of one was the othered.

Future Thinking (3)

BabyDuckHat (1503839) | more than 2 years ago | (#37671990)

In four years I'll be starting a company based on the idea of having a device that stores all your photos, emails, and applications locally so you aren't tied to the cloud.

Re:Future Thinking (1)

RedBear (207369) | more than 2 years ago | (#37672366)

In four years I'll be starting a company based on the idea of having a device that stores all your photos, emails, and applications locally so you aren't tied to the cloud.

You're a little late. You have to hand it to Apple yet again, their new iCloud service is mainly used not to _store_ but to _sync_ your apps, music, photos, contacts, calendar events and documents between your devices, where almost everything is then stored locally on each device or computer. Gee whiz, how about that. What a concept, huh? An iCloud outage will just mean you temporarily won't be able to sync things between devices. Most people probably won't even notice if it doesn't last more than a day.

I don't know if their iMessage service requires iCloud, but even if it does it would fall back to SMS if iCloud is down. So all in all they seem to have really thought things through with their implementation of cloud services.

Re:Future Thinking (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37672514)

Yes, how about that. An even better idea would be to be able to sync things WITHOUT a damn iCloud at all! What a concept!

Typical Business Decision (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37672020)

This is generally the decision upper management makes. Step #1 Make the infrastructure as cheaply as possible in a way that works for the situation right now. Step #2 Get as many users as possible. Any band-aids that are necessary is just support for our infrastructure, and everything will magically scale despite our single point of failure. The justification for this, is that hardware is cheaper than software engineers, so it is cheaper to scale by just paying for better hardware. So, scalability should not be a problem as long as their engineers were competent building the initial infrastructure. However, this event shows they obviously were not.

Leave it to RIM. . . (1)

MagusSlurpy (592575) | more than 2 years ago | (#37672100)

. . . to ruin my chances of snagging a big, beautiful man.

don't worry (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37672210)

Current infrastructure will be more than adequate to support the number of RIM users left a few years from now...

Users fault (1)

lucm (889690) | more than 2 years ago | (#37672360)

> have been unable to receive or send emails and messages through their phones

Maybe the users just don't hold their phones correctly, like it happened with another vendor...

Campaign (2)

Corson (746347) | more than 2 years ago | (#37672404)

A campaign against RIM has been running in the media for the last few months. Before the iPhone and Android devices there was the Blackberry and I bet RIM still have a few cards left up the sleeve.

Re:Campaign (2)

gmhowell (26755) | more than 2 years ago | (#37673200)

I bet RIM still have a few cards left up the sleeve.

Unfortunately for those who like RIM, the cards up their sleeves are the instruction cards for playing poker.

It was bound to happen (1)

Murdoch5 (1563847) | more than 2 years ago | (#37672756)

When you consider the fact that most of Rim's internal tools don't scale well and there built off broken technology it was bound to hit the outside world. Rim's general outlook is have it crash first and blame the coops later. Very little of there info-structure is designed to handle loading and expansion. I'm surprised it took this long to happen.

Well, at least Slashdot is consistent... (4, Insightful)

dwm (151474) | more than 2 years ago | (#37673290)

Wow, another Slashdot hatchet job on RIM. Heavy into Apple stock, are we?

RIM certainly has issues, and it may not survive. But it seems the Slashdot editorial staff wants to make sure.

OMG! An email provider is down! (1)

msobkow (48369) | more than 2 years ago | (#37673316)

Even when it's Google or RIM, an email server being unavailable isn't what I'd call "news".

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