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CCP Deconstructs EVE Online's Microtransaction Missteps

Soulskill posted about 3 years ago | from the pay-seventy-cents-to-continue-reading dept.

Businesses 106

A few months ago we discussed an uproar in the EVE Online community over CCP Games' implementation of microtransactions within the game. Hilmar Pétursson, the company's CEO, recently posted a lengthy apology and an explanation of their thought process, which he admits was "wrong." Now, at GDC Online, CCP has gone into further detail about the lessons they've learned from the fiasco. Quoting: "Of the eight original items, Cockerill said all but one was in the mid- to high-tier price range. Players naturally assumed the lower-tier range would be neglected going forward, which served to push some of them away. The second wave (and the forthcoming fourth wave) featured more lower-tier options, but it wasn't enough. Cockerill said virtual-goods sellers should release a range of goods at all of their price points to start with, or else they'll face the wrath of the user base. What's more, the team should have targeted the desires of its then-current user base, who cared much more about having virtual clothes for their ships instead of their avatars."

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It was actually all (1)

philmarcracken (1412453) | about 3 years ago | (#37676524)

because of falcon.

It's a game, for crying out loud !! (-1, Offtopic)

Taco Cowboy (5327) | about 3 years ago | (#37676662)

Ain't people got better to do?

It's a game, for crying out loud?

Get a life, people !!!

Re:It's a game, for crying out loud !! (1, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 years ago | (#37677046)

Some people kick a ball around a field, I think they should get a life to.

It's just a ball damn it! Do something useful.

Re:It's a game, for crying out loud !! (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 years ago | (#37679282)

No, that actually is a life. We are actually genetically programmed to run around and play. They are training themselves for the next hunt as well as displaying their fitness to mate. Which, is actually the complete opposite of what happens while playing eve...

Re:It's a game, for crying out loud !! (1)

Gripp (1969738) | about 3 years ago | (#37689236)

firstly, for as long as men have been working they've been playing. there are tons of pointless things that have been done in excess throughout society. at the least gaming lends its self to a future. I mean, lots of people got into technology becuase of their gaming experience. tinkering with cars can have a similar effect as gaming - although most in that case end up mechanics rather than engineers.
yet, no one has ever truly elevated society via shooting the perfect basket. if anything i think they lower it on the whole - people spend more time watching the games than playing them. this usually involves beer and fatty foods. and the ratio of person being active to persons becoming obese on the count of that active person is *huge*. not to mention aspects like (retarded) rivalry that leads to fights, murders and even full blown riots.

you may want to think that since in the gaming and watching sports case they both are staring at a screen that they are somehow the same, but this is simply not true. there is no interaction with watching sports. there is no chance to get in and think your way through how the game works to tweek/hack something - or research how to perform said hack. people don't figure out how to build custom TV's from scratch to better their sports-watching experience. rather, the typical sports fan simply sits and watches mindlessly, occasionally making one noise or another from their gut.

and PS not everyone is "genetically programmed to run around and play."

Re:It's a game, for crying out loud !! (4, Insightful)

somersault (912633) | about 3 years ago | (#37677054)

You speak as if day to day life itself is any less of a game.

I can't imagine why people should care about what your view of "life" is, if they're enjoying themselves. No, I have never played Eve or WoW. I probably would have got into Eve if there weren't any stupid RPG skill building elements in there though. I do think that it is unhealthy to not get out and do a bit of exercise every so often, but besides that, who cares if these guys get their kicks from playing computer games vs going out to bars or any of the other boring, meaningless crap that most people do?

Re:It's a game, for crying out loud !! (2)

PopeRatzo (965947) | about 3 years ago | (#37678064)

You speak as if day to day life itself is any less of a game.

+100 Insightful

The only difference is that what we call "real life" is played on a much more powerful gaming rig.

I like to view computer games as "mini-games" that I play while I'm working my way through the main story, on my way to that final big boss fight known as death.

Re:It's a game, for crying out loud !! (1)

tenco (773732) | about 3 years ago | (#37680436)

Treating real life as a game is stupid. Why? Because quitting (or being forced to quit) = death.

Re:It's a game, for crying out loud !! (1)

PwnzerDragoon (2014464) | about 3 years ago | (#37682384)

You mean like Nethack?

Re:It's a game, for crying out loud !! (1)

PopeRatzo (965947) | about 3 years ago | (#37682592)

Treating real life as a game is stupid. Why? Because quitting (or being forced to quit) = death.

That's stupid. You die whether or not you "quit" or are "forced to quit". Everybody dies, but there is still a way to win.

If I have to explain to you how you win the game even though you die then I'm pretty sure you are incapable of understanding the explanation. So now I'll leave you to your narrow view of your own existence.

Re:It's a game, for crying out loud !! (1)

Taty'sEyes (2373326) | about 3 years ago | (#37683342)

So, you mean to tell me there is no spawn point? This changes everything!

Re:It's a game, for crying out loud !! (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 years ago | (#37680052)

I've noticed that people who say things like "get a life" are usually not the sharpest knives in the drawer. They cannot explain what they really mean with it, for example.

They try to explain getting a life with concept of normality and "what other people do". Then they cannot explain what they mean by normal and stumble over logical fallacies like circular reasoning: normal is life because life is normal.

Re:It's a game, for crying out loud !! (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 years ago | (#37677268)

Unless you, interspazz user, slashdot poster, computer owner, are fighting to get shelter and food for your kids then everything you do is a game.

Your life is a game. A remarkably easy one.

Hence the fact that most of us go to great lengths to make things as complicated as our mental capacity can handle. The alternative is to dive into the sea and keep swimming.

Re:It's a game, for crying out loud !! (1)

Dunbal (464142) | about 3 years ago | (#37677560)

Your life is a game. A remarkably easy one.

I would hasten to probably add - a remarkably boring one.

Re:It's a game, for crying out loud !! (1)

PwnzerDragoon (2014464) | about 3 years ago | (#37682416)

Indeed, I've found most of it to be an endless grind for coin. Character advancement is very slow, if it happens at all.

Re:It's a game, for crying out loud !! (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 years ago | (#37680124)

I am incredibly, depressingly surprised and deeply ashamed of the gaming community of which I sometimes claim to be a part that, of all the responses to the parent post before this one, all of them, bar none, have been in support of publicly spazzing out and overreacting in response to unwanted changes in a single video game and somehow implying that the poster doesn't understand some life-threatening gravity of the situation.

Seriously, you guys. Back in grade school the Sega vs. Nintendo kiddies would've been embarrassed by that kind of shit. It's not that important. No matter how cutthroat and "hardcore" the game is, it's not that important. You can always just stop giving them money if you don't like how it's going.

If that's the image you guys are projecting, no wonder it's so hard to get new players in EVE Online.

Re:It's a game, for crying out loud !! (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 years ago | (#37681810)

Many people consider EVE Online a hobby, not a game. A few people actually make money out of it (RMT) and call it work. Other than that, you can say the same for all the TV-addicts, Facebookers, Youtubers, Twitters, etc. Just because a group of people invests their time in activity x and care for said activity, doesn't mean they don't have a life. Second, EVE has some aspects which get people more emotionally attached to it. If someone shoots you, you can lose your ship, modules, implants, etc. You may have played 100+ hours to get those, or converted hundreds of dollars of purchased game-time to ingame currency to buy the items. In WoW, you run back and pick up where you left. In a FPS, you respawn and get back into action. In EVE, you items are gone and you need to start over again. On a larger scale player formed corporations or alliances can "lose" tens of thousands of hours of players time (or in RMT terms, tens of thousands of dollars.) in conflicts.

Re:It was actually all (1)

sg_oneill (159032) | about 3 years ago | (#37677220)

Nerfing the falcon was why I quit the damn game.

Well actually it was the minmitar nerf that broke the camels back (why "lets remove the most ridiculously fun setup in game, the 'comedy scimitar setup' was even a thought process is beyond me).

Except perhaps in completely ridiculous cases (the insane original titan configuration where you could remotely blow up hundreds of people without leaving the pos, which caused tonnes of people to give up eve in frusturation) it seems the better option to overpowered setups is instead of nerfing which just punishes people for spending time training up the skills, buff countermeasures. ECM too strong? Buff EECM. Vultures too hard to shoot? Give some other ship the tools to provide a staunch opposition. And so on. But having my setups constantly nerfed (burn eden raidens where also shitloads of fun too, Insane slippery T2 cruise ravens coupled with a bubble ruled. And yeah that got killed by the stab nerf, but I kind of understand that particular one) everytime I spent 3-4 months training it up just ended up wearing me out.

Re:It was actually all (3, Insightful)

nedlohs (1335013) | about 3 years ago | (#37677882)

nerfing is the correct solution to unbalanced items/content/etc. Increasing the power of other things to match just launches you into a never ending spiral of increasing the power of things. And it makes no difference, other than that players are notoriously stupid and complain about nerfs no matter what, nerfing a ship is exactly the same as making the other ships more powerful - that ship is now less "good", those skill points are "wasted".

To use your example of "Vultures too hard to shoot". If you "Give some other ship the tools to provide a staunch opposition" then those tools will likely make that ship better against non-Vultures as well, given designers/programmers/whatever are human and don't get it exactly right (as evidenced by the initial problem) they'll very likely end up with that ship being overpowered. Now they have to power up a counter to that as well an the cycle continues. If they just nerf the vultures the problem is solved directly without it causing knock on balance problems. But players hate nerfing.

Don't read this... it is a curse... (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 years ago | (#37676526)

In 2008, a little boy named Erin was relaxing on the beach in the middle of the day. Whilst doing so, he spotted a small lizard beanie baby about 6 meters away, stood up, and then called out to it. After the lizard asked him what he wanted, Erin said in a confident manner, "I betcha can't lick my buttcheeks!" The lizard replied, "I bet I can!" and stuck out its tongue a few inches. Confident of the lizard's impending failure, Erin laughed. However, he discovered that his confidence was misplaced right as he heard the sound of the lizard's invisible tongue slapping his buttcheek!

Angry, Erin yelled, "I betcha can't lick my buttcrack!" The lizard replied the same way, and then once again stuck out its tongue a few inches. And, once again... Erin heard the sound of an invisible tongue slapping against something, but this time it violated his buttcrack. Furious, he screamed, "I betcha can't lick my butthole!" The lizard replied the same way, stuck out its tongue a few inches, and the exact same thing happened.

For Erin, that was the last straw. He was so furious that he ran up to the lizard beanie baby and tried to stomp on it. However, it somehow managed to crawl up his left pant leg and appeared to be crawling towards his bootyass! In his desperation, he attempted to stop it by blocking it with his hand. He quickly realized that that would not be effective when the lizard merely crawled under his hand. The lump in his pant leg continued onward towards his bootyass. After trying and failing to take off his pants, Erin gave up all hope and began screaming for help. Once the lizard reached Erin's precious bootyasscheekcrackhole, it began crawling on top of it in a square pattern, stopping and continuing every few seconds. Whenever the lizard moved, the sound of a snake was heard many times in a short amount of time. This inflicted tremendous amounts of tickle on Erin's bootyass!

Now that you have read this (even a single word of it), the lizard will crawl on your bootyasscheekcrackhole in a square pattern, inflicting extreme amounts of tickle upon it! To prevent this from happening, post this curse as a comment three times.

Re:Don't read this... it is a curse... (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 years ago | (#37676806)

That's it, this troll has officially jumped the bootyasscheekcrackholerectumshark.

Re:Don't read this... it is a curse... (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 years ago | (#37676830)

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Are you GAY?

Are you a NIGGER?

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Re:Don't read this... it is a curse... (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 years ago | (#37677912)

I am a NIGGER, but I don't think I am a GAY NIGGER. I do kinda like it when a lizard crawls in a square pattern on my bootyasscheekcrackhole, or a freaky doll gets sucked into it like a spaghetti noodle and makes it into a bootyhouse rumbleass bouncehole -- basically anything that inflicts massive tickle -- but I don't think that really makes me GAY. But even though I'm not really a GAY NIGGER, I do find your ideas intriguing; can I subscribe to your newsletter anyway?

This is the least of their problems. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 years ago | (#37676550)

They still don't get it... (5, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 years ago | (#37676578)

They still don't get it.
It's not about the price or the clothes for characters instead of ships.

It's about the fact that we pay a subscription each month (an expensive one compared to other MMOs, I might add) and we feel that we deserve anything they develop for free. If they use their employees, time or money to develop something for the game, it should be free or more exactly: it should be granted by the monthly fee.
Most players do not just feel like they are paying to play a game, they feel like they are also investing money in Eve. They pay CCP in the hopes of seeing the game improve and accomplish it's full potential. When CCP makes us pay a subscription AND for new content, they don't just make us pay twice, they are also telling us "Thanks for your investment. Now pay us some more to get access to the result of that investment".
It's like renting a car and having to pay extra for a seatbelt. It's like a company taking money from investors and then telling them "your investment allows you to buy the products we make".

This is the third or fourth official apology from CCP and they still don't get it.

Oh and by the way - this new path CCP is taking (making players pay for new content) so far has made them lose more players than they have earned. Not only has this caused players to quit Eve, it has also ruined the company's and the game's reputation among potential future players. Personally the only reason I'm still playing is because I haven't given up all hope yet and I can say the same of most players I know.
Someone fire that incompetent CEO and replace him with somebody who understands the market Eve is in!

Re:They still don't get it... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 years ago | (#37676664)

>It's about the fact that we pay a subscription each month (an expensive one compared to other MMOs, I might add) and we feel that we deserve anything they develop for free.

Like all of those shiny new expansions they release every 6 months for absolutely nothing?

Don't get me wrong, a $60 monocle is total bullshit, but demonizing them for not giving you all of those neat vanity items for free is a little overboard.

Re:They still don't get it... (1)

zergl (841491) | about 3 years ago | (#37676758)

>It's about the fact that we pay a subscription each month (an expensive one compared to other MMOs, I might add) and we feel that we deserve anything they develop for free.

Like all of those shiny new expansions they release every 6 months for absolutely nothing?

Don't get me wrong, a $60 monocle is total bullshit, but demonizing them for not giving you all of those neat vanity items for free is a little overboard.

Well, there hasn't been an expansion worthy of praise since Apocrypha in 2009...

Incursions wasn't completely horrible because it added High Sec PVE that doesn't make me want to stab my brain out to escape the boredom, but even that was poorly (read: not at all) followed up (risk/reward is seriously skewed in high sec and easily farmed in the lower tier sites for relatively ridiculous/easy ISK per hour) and most likely done with extremely few development resources as most of the individual bits were already in the game in one form or another while the nose candy enthusiasts in Team :AWESOME: pissed away money on the for now indefinitely postponed full Incarna (Establishments etc.).

Re:They still don't get it... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 years ago | (#37682322)

1) It seems you haven't read my post entirely.
2) I explained why I think expansions should be free, if you disagree with me then explain why my explanations are wrong. Saying "you're wrong" brings nothing to the discussion.
3) The points above make you one post away from looking like a troll.

Re:They still don't get it... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 years ago | (#37676770)

It's about the fact that we pay a subscription each month (an expensive one compared to other MMOs, I might add)

How is 14.95 a month expensive compared to other MMO's? Seems inline with comparable games on the chart on the following page:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_massively_multiplayer_online_role-playing_games

I think the gear for the avatars is premature at this point since the only place it can be seen is in the individual players CQ, that's Captain's Quarters for those who don't know. Once the station environments are fully accessible, then yeah it will be nice to be able to change your characters clothing. However, since the majority of the game still takes place in your ship, in space, they should have started with ship customization.

Re:They still don't get it... (1)

julesh (229690) | about 3 years ago | (#37677862)

Agreed. EVE's price is quite reasonable, especially when you consider they're still charging the same non-inflation-adjusted price they were at launch, and there's now something like 10x as much content that you get for your money as you did then. Inflation adjusted, it's as if the subscription had been reduced to about $12.50.

Re:They still don't get it... (1)

argStyopa (232550) | about 3 years ago | (#37677364)

Agreed.

MMOs are a popular genre, both for players (who get a broader, more varied, interactive social experience unlike they can get in any 1st person solo game) and for developers (your 1st person game sells 100,000 copies in the 1st year, you make $5 million; your MMO sells 100k copies, you make that $5 mill plus ANOTHER $9mill in subscriptions).

But as the shine has worn off the apple, customers are getting more sophisticated. More competition means that a successful MMO needs to be a AAA-grade title all the time. Further, and to the point of the OP, players might be starting to look at the $180/year they're spending on that game and wonder if that's not a little high for the rental of some imagination time.

Many vendors (and I'm certain Blizz is going that way as WoW reaches senescence) have dropped into a micropayment model. I originally thought it was a good idea. Many implementations leave a reasonable amount of game that's playable for free, and the upper reaches (for the hardcore) cost $$.

I'm no longer convinced that's sustainable. The micropay model is so jarringly destructive of suspension of disbelief, and as a player you constantly run into what amounts to commercials or purchase options it tears you completely out of the game experience.

Re:They still don't get it... (1)

Almandine (1594857) | about 3 years ago | (#37677888)

WoW has had a micropayment model for awhile now with its shiny horses and various pets.

Re:They still don't get it... (2)

Darinbob (1142669) | about 3 years ago | (#37682842)

But while upper reaches may mean $$ that $$ may just mean subscribing. Microtransactions do not mean that you're required to spend extra money beyond a subscriptions or that it's pay to win (a stupid term actually, except for EVE and PvP stuff there is no win in a cooperative RPG, or at least there shouldn't be a juvenile concern that someone may be getting something easier than you got it).

For instance in Lord of the Rings Online and Dungeons and Dragons Online you can play totally for free (even more so in LotRO). That is, without a single dime you can get to max level and enter end game. You may have to grind your butt off to earn in-game points but it is doable. And with this economy a lot of players are doing exactly that. But if you subscribe you get essentially everything. There is nothing that you must have from the store for points, and besides you get plenty of points for subscribing. However there are players so hung up on their anti-microtransation rants that they refuse to even spend their free points. It's a great model: you can play free or you can buy a little and play ala carte or you can subscribe and get the whole enchilada plus you can upgrade/downgrade as you like.

Other games tend to screw up the free to play stuff; ie, they'll put free players in their own isolated servers (like they have cooties or something) which certainly doesn't encourage more players to show up. Or it's free only to a certain low level and with major disadvantages.

Re:They still don't get it... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 years ago | (#37677788)

CCP was always a bunch of hacks anyway, the fact that gamers fell for this spreadsheet of a game is what boggles my mind. Even with it's blandness I'd rather play Black Prophecy then EVE any day of the week, and more importantly it's free to play.

http://blackprophecy.com/ [blackprophecy.com]

Re:They still don't get it... (2)

julesh (229690) | about 3 years ago | (#37677810)

So, let me get this straight: you believe it is wrong for a company to offer two different levels of service for two different prices? That because somebody's paying the basic level price, they should automatically have a right to anything that can be provided at the higher level of service?

That is just crazy, if you ask me. CCP designed the stuff, they have the right to choose what to charge for it. No amount of money you've spent on their *other* products gives you the right to demand access to the rest for free.

Or do you believe that because you've been paying for EVE for so long, you should automatically have right to receive a copy of Dust when they release it?

Re:They still don't get it... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 years ago | (#37678758)

Well that IS the only way any significant number of people will play it.

Re:They still don't get it... (2)

PremiumCarrion (861236) | about 3 years ago | (#37678764)

Frankly I think the GP is not on the same wavelength as most eve players who are currently unhappy.

The big issue as I see it relates to the fact Eve Online is a game about spaceships... in space, previously most or all development efforts at CCP have been adding new content in the form of NPC missions, new shiptypes, alterations to PVP mechanics and other things which contribute to the fun you can have being a spaceship. However lately with the addition of monocles and changes to spacestations (the ability to walk around a small room) it feels like their development focus has moved away from spaceships, and now the core of the game is neglected.

Although the community would be even more up in arms if there was tiered service which gave someone an advantage in regular play.

Re:They still don't get it... (1)

darkwing_bmf (178021) | about 3 years ago | (#37680774)

Frankly I think the GP is not on the same wavelength as most eve players who are currently unhappy.

Most eve players are unhappy? Can they not find something else to do that makes them happy? Why are they spending money to play this unhappy game? Even if they would be unhappy playing nothing they could save money by not playing this game to be unhappy.

Re:They still don't get it... (1)

KahabutDieDrake (1515139) | about 3 years ago | (#37682684)

One of the details of EVE that slashdot users tend to not know.... very few "hardcore" players actually pay a subscription fee. In 2004, I paid my $15. Since 2005, I haven't paid a dime for any of my 3 accounts. I don't even play anymore, but I still have 3 active accounts. Because it's SO STUPIDLY EASY to make enough ISK to pay for the accounts with it. Eve had RMT long before micro transactions showed up. In the form of PLEX. Which, in short, allows me to pay ISK (ingame money) for game time. Usually from another player who has too much cash and not enough time.

Re:They still don't get it... (1)

darkwing_bmf (178021) | about 3 years ago | (#37686184)

I already knew that but that's not the point I was trying to make. Even if you don't spend your money you are still spending your time. Why would you spend your time playing something that makes you unhappy? Just because something is free doesn't mean it's good. Now, if you disagree with PremiumCarrion's assertion that most of the game's players are unhappy then you should say so. And, by the way, if you are having fun playing Eve then I'm glad you're having fun playing the game you like!

Re:They still don't get it... (1)

KahabutDieDrake (1515139) | about 3 years ago | (#37686646)

Oh hell no, I don't play EVE anymore. I maintain some accounts, that's about 20 minutes a few times a week. I haven't "played" EVE in 2 years. My point was that I maintain my accounts for "free", in hopes that EVE will get back to a game I actually want to play. So... I am one of those unhappy players, in a sense. But I can't save any more money, and neither can most veterans of the game. They either don't give a crap about the cost (it's low), or they just aren't paying anything to begin with.

Re:They still don't get it... (2)

KermodeBear (738243) | about 3 years ago | (#37679320)

Eve has, historically, always offered expansions and all of the new content contained at no additional cost above and beyond the monthly subscription fee. You are correct that CCP has every right to change their business and pricing model as they see fit, but players also have the right to criticize and reject the new pricing models if they so choose.

Re:They still don't get it... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 years ago | (#37680272)

Thankfully you're not missing out on any content, you're just missing out on new hats. I think this is the perfect thing to monetize; vanity shit.

Re:They still don't get it... (1)

KermodeBear (738243) | about 3 years ago | (#37681224)

Which is very true, but all other content previously could be found and produced by players. This new content (such as it is) is limited to converting PLEX to Aurum, which requires that extra real money be spent (by someone) in order to access the content.

Granted, it's vanity only. Nobody really cares. Whatever. What concerns people is the possibility of non-vanity items in the store and a whole host of other issues already covered in the comments here.

Re:They still don't get it... (1)

firewrought (36952) | about 3 years ago | (#37681838)

So, let me get this straight: you believe it is wrong for a company to offer two different levels of service for two different prices?

You can't use generalizations to explore the subtleties by which participants in a transaction see that deal as fair or unfair. You've got to look at the specifics. I don't play MMORPG's, but if I did, I suspect I would be more satisfied with a one-price-buys-all model than a nickle-and-dime payment model. I know this is true with amusement parks: I get really irked if a ride/attraction requires an extra fee beyond the price of admission, but I'm okay paying more for food and souvenirs.

CCP designed the stuff, they have the right to choose what to charge for it. No amount of money you've spent on their *other* products gives you the right to demand access to the rest for free.

Grandparent isn't suing CCP, he's describing what he felt he deserved for the subscription fee. Presumably, he will take his business to another MMORPG that is more attentive to the mechanics of customer satisfaction. (And actually, you probably will see a lawsuit someday where somebody argues that the purchase/subscription fee implied full access to the game.)

Re:They still don't get it... (1)

Darinbob (1142669) | about 3 years ago | (#37682904)

MMOs players tend to get a bit emotionally attached to their games. They sort of forget that it's just a product made by a for-profit company. Sort of like the early iPhone buyers who accepted the high price when it first came out but then felt insulted when the price dropped. Some complaints do feel a bit like entitlement but I don't think that's really the cause. I think it is just the emotional attachment factor; someone may be the most polite person in the world to a stranger on the street but be rude and obnoxious to an ex-spouse.

Re:They still don't get it... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 years ago | (#37682570)

I believe the amount of money I spend on Eve entitles me to have access to all the content they have developed for it. If I'm going to stick with their game for several years and pay them every year 2-3 times more money than I pay for a solo game, then I think I'm entitled to a game that keeps improving. If I have to pay Eve more than I pay Call of Duty and still have to pay for extra content, then I can find other games that will provide me a better fun/cost ratio and I'd be an idiot not to drop Eve for these games.

CCP have the right to make multiple levels of payment, and I want to remind you that we aren't talking about removing that right from them, but as a customer I also have the right to feel that their game is too expensive for what I get out of it, and I'm allowed not to do business with them if I feel that way. Do you mean to tell me you have never refused to buy something because you thought it was too expensive?

I said nothing about Dust and no I don't think I should be getting it for free. I feel the subscription I pay should cover access to 'small' content such as clothing for my character. Dust is a full game on it's own, it took much, much more development time and money and I do not think my subscription is high enough to grant me access to it.

But really, what I think about paying for content is not the topic here. My original post was about CCP failing to understand the issues players are having. The merit of these issues is different subject.

Re:They still don't get it... (1)

Almandine (1594857) | about 3 years ago | (#37677936)

For an analogy, I think it's more like renting a car and paying extra for satellite radio. While the seatbelt is a "need" due to various laws, satellite radio is just a "want" as it is for convenience. One can drive the car just fine without satellite radio versus not having seatbelts. While I haven't personally played Eve, it sounds like what people are getting from the micropayments are mostly cosmetic items rather than something game changing.

Re:They still don't get it... (1)

gothzilla (676407) | about 3 years ago | (#37678856)

I had gained hope that CCP had turned a new corner but the second link in the article just showed me they haven't. You are right. They still don't get why the player base was upset.

"Cockerill said the team did get some things right. He pointed to the $65 monocle that players can purchase in-game and said that despite the controversy it generated among players, it was the highest-grossing item for the virtual-goods launch. "

Unbelievable.

Re:They still don't get it... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 years ago | (#37679756)

You don't have to buy any of the content in the NeX shop and we are still getting FiS enhancements this winter. They needed to get Incarna out of the dev pipeline to work on other content so it came out half assed. This isn't new behavior for CCP. Look at Faction Warfare and Planetary Interaction. The first iteration they release is always weak and unfinished. They finish it in the following expansions. PI last year and FW this winter when they finish Captain's Quarters.

The cost of items in the shop have already gone down and they are giving us free Aurum to try out the shop if we so choose. I will have 3000 aurum soon and I still don't see anything I want to use free money on in the store. Playing dress up is not interesting for me.

Quit being butt hurt and go pod some people.

Re:They still don't get it... (1)

khallow (566160) | about 3 years ago | (#37680470)

I don't see what you're complaining about. You can always farm for isk to buy PLEX and then convert those PLEX into monocles or whatever. You don't need and never needed to buy the new content with real money.

For me, the real idiocy was not offering content with any significant gameplay. I don't speak of fancy clothing and ship colors for money but rather of walking in stations (or "ambulation" as they called it). They spent a vast amount of effort over many years to provide a whole new aspect to the game and it comes with virtually no gameplaying content. The only effect for me has been having to pay to sit in a internet cafe to download the large client patches and experience client sluggishness (which I can't turn off!) whenever I'm in a station.

My sole experience with this new expansion is that my client is more sluggish than ever before. That's it. No fancy ships, no new business opportunities. Nothing I'd be interested in. There has never been an expansion with so little new content for people who play the game.

Re:They still don't get it... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 years ago | (#37686104)

They still don't get it.
It's not about the price or the clothes for characters instead of ships.

It's about the fact that we pay a subscription each month (an expensive one compared to other MMOs, I might add) and we feel that we deserve anything they develop for free. If they use their employees, time or money to develop something for the game, it should be free or more exactly: it should be granted by the monthly fee.
Most players do not just feel like they are paying to play a game, they feel like they are also investing money in Eve. They pay CCP in the hopes of seeing the game improve and accomplish it's full potential. When CCP makes us pay a subscription AND for new content, they don't just make us pay twice, they are also telling us "Thanks for your investment. Now pay us some more to get access to the result of that investment".
It's like renting a car and having to pay extra for a seatbelt. It's like a company taking money from investors and then telling them "your investment allows you to buy the products we make".

This is the third or fourth official apology from CCP and they still don't get it.

Oh and by the way - this new path CCP is taking (making players pay for new content) so far has made them lose more players than they have earned. Not only has this caused players to quit Eve, it has also ruined the company's and the game's reputation among potential future players. Personally the only reason I'm still playing is because I haven't given up all hope yet and I can say the same of most players I know.
Someone fire that incompetent CEO and replace him with somebody who understands the market Eve is in!

They still don't get it.
It's not about the price or the clothes for characters instead of ships.

It's about the fact that we pay a subscription each month (an expensive one compared to other MMOs, I might add) and we feel that we deserve anything they develop for free. If they use their employees, time or money to develop something for the game, it should be free or more exactly: it should be granted by the monthly fee.
Most players do not just feel like they are paying to play a game, they feel like they are also investing money in Eve. They pay CCP in the hopes of seeing the game improve and accomplish it's full potential. When CCP makes us pay a subscription AND for new content, they don't just make us pay twice, they are also telling us "Thanks for your investment. Now pay us some more to get access to the result of that investment".
It's like renting a car and having to pay extra for a seatbelt. It's like a company taking money from investors and then telling them "your investment allows you to buy the products we make".

This is the third or fourth official apology from CCP and they still don't get it.

Oh and by the way - this new path CCP is taking (making players pay for new content) so far has made them lose more players than they have earned. Not only has this caused players to quit Eve, it has also ruined the company's and the game's reputation among potential future players. Personally the only reason I'm still playing is because I haven't given up all hope yet and I can say the same of most players I know.
Someone fire that incompetent CEO and replace him with somebody who understands the market Eve is in!

They still don't get it.
It's not about the price or the clothes for characters instead of ships.

It's about the fact that we pay a subscription each month (an expensive one compared to other MMOs, I might add) and we feel that we deserve anything they develop for free. If they use their employees, time or money to develop something for the game, it should be free or more exactly: it should be granted by the monthly fee.
Most players do not just feel like they are paying to play a game, they feel like they are also investing money in Eve. They pay CCP in the hopes of seeing the game improve and accomplish it's full potential. When CCP makes us pay a subscription AND for new content, they don't just make us pay twice, they are also telling us "Thanks for your investment. Now pay us some more to get access to the result of that investment".
It's like renting a car and having to pay extra for a seatbelt. It's like a company taking money from investors and then telling them "your investment allows you to buy the products we make".

This is the third or fourth official apology from CCP and they still don't get it.

Oh and by the way - this new path CCP is taking (making players pay for new content) so far has made them lose more players than they have earned. Not only has this caused players to quit Eve, it has also ruined the company's and the game's reputation among potential future players. Personally the only reason I'm still playing is because I haven't given up all hope yet and I can say the same of most players I know.
Someone fire that incompetent CEO and replace him with somebody who understands the market Eve is in!

Apocrypha
Release date: March 10, 2009
Wormholes, Tech 3 Cruisers and related production, Ability to respec Skill Points, Skill Queue, Epic Storyline arcs for empire factions, New ship fitting UI, Ability to export UI settings and ship fittings.

Dominion
Release date: December 1, 2009
Major reworkings to how you take sovereignty in conquerable space. Added the ability to upgrade said space and allow the players in it more money making opportunities. Rework Titan doomsday so entire subcapital fleets aren't instantly destroyed by a large alliance dropping 3-5 doomsdays on your subcap fleet. Allowing ships other than stupid tanked out battleships and cap ships to participate in sov. warfare. Added Epic Storyline arcs for pirate factions. Made EVE mail not shit. Fleet Finder. Tutorials explaining more complicated game mechanics for new players.

Tyrannis
Release date: May 26, 2010
Added Planetary Interaction, EVE Gate
Yeah.. PI sucks but Planetary Interaction will serve a much better purpose once Dust 514 is out. CCP has said that Planetary Interaction will be tied into Dust 514. EVE players will likely be building the items that Dust 514 players use when they go out and fight, you will be hieing those Dust space mercenaries to take more of a planet so you can build more shit off that planet. Also there is likely going to be a tie-in with Planetary Interaction and sovereignty warfare. Also, Planetary Interaction the way it is now is a fantastic way to make passive income.

Incursion
Release Date: November 30, 2010. .... Incursions, Sancha Battleships and carriers, Improved character creator, Improvements to Planetary Interaction, Getting rid of Learning Skills, 40 new missions, Hardware upgrades and optimizing eve allowing for larger fleet fights to happen before things begin to lag, Jita no longer needs a population cap. UI Reworkings making things MUCH less confusing, and easier to use, ship fittings are now saved server side, corporate ship fittings, fighter bombers, tons of game mechanic reworkings, you can now edit hotkeys.

Incarna
Release Date: June 21, 2011.
Added a cash shop for vanity items that you can dress up your character with, captains quarters , and items to dress up your character.

The ONLY expansion that has came out in the last two years that hasn't added ANY new playable content to the game has been Incarna. Tyrannis wasn't that great either, but at least you had Planetary Interaction to fuck with.It hasn't been the MASSIVE amounts of content released in earlier expansions, but from my perspective CCP's focus on EVE has shifted for the time being. Over the past two years I have seen many small reworkings of things that add up to having a much better game play experience for new, and old players.

I would much rather have them continue to focus on fixing what was broken instead of pumping content into the game. Over the past two years EVE has became a much easier game to get into by constantly reworking the new player experience. It's gotten easier, but it still needs a SERIOUS amount of work, and reading their blog posts they seem committed to continuing to improve it. When large sovblocks fight, it ends typically ends up with massive amounts of lag, this has drastically improved over the last two years, and they are continuing to improve it. They keep reworking old tools, making them much easier to use. Did you ever try using probes before they redid them?

Think about all the shit that's unnecessarily frustrating to do in this game. They think about how much MORE frustrating it was 2-3 years ago. EVE is a complicated world, and it will never be easy to pick up everything compared most other games, but there is some massive room for improvement here, and I am glad they have been recognize and correct this

Efforts in Wold of Darkness are being added into EVE's character creator, captains quarters, and when it actually comes out. Station walking with other players. Which will probably be used as a medium to interact with Dust 514 players, and while this has only been hinted in a Dust teaser, it will turn into a giant space espionage clusterfuck.

I'm sorry, Incarna wasn't for you. It's not for me either. I have no interest in dressing up my character. Especially if I can't run around showing off my dressed up dude to other people yet. I have no interest in the new captains quarters, it adds no new functionality to the game, is very demanding compared to the ship spinning screen you had when you docked up. BUT it is fantastic for somebody who is completely new to EVE. The new tutorial, that starts in the captains quarters is MUCH better, and has made several people I know actually give the game a fair chance instead of leaving mid tutorial, frustrated as hell.

http://www.evenews24.com/2011/06/22/greed-is-good-purportedly-leaked-internal-bulletin-shows-ccps-refreshing-new-direction/ This memo was taken out of context and CCP's poor PR made people circlejerk and blow this completely out of proportion. Instead if instantly responding CCP chose to stick their head in the sand for several weeks. The portion discussing play to win was discussing the advantages and disadvantages of play to win or not. It does not say CCP is committing to play to win. Remember. This is an INTERNAL MEMO used to keep employees up to date on what's happening within CCP.

People being mad about the cash shop. Why? The items are entirely vanity, can be sold on the market and then purchased with ISK. Remember, you can do this with PLEX. Why are you mad that people are willing to pay real money to dress up your character. You can already buy everything else in the game by buying PLEXes with cash, listing them on the market, then buying whatever you wanted. I doubt CCP was ever intending to make EVE a play to win game, and if they were even considering it you could bet the stupid amount of rage people had when CCP stealthy put the NeX store up with Incarna ensured that will never happen. IMO, this rage wouldn't have happened if they delayed the release of the NeX store till you could interact with other players in station showing off your space jewelry.

So.... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 years ago | (#37676580)

A game company manager finally figures out what the gamers arleady know...

Someone mark the date.. It's historic.

Now if only they'd try ASKING the players instead of bumbling around, failing, and then figuring it out half assed a year later.

Of course many players are also morons. So the signal to noise ratio is real bad.

In the CCCP (1)

FunkSoulBrother (140893) | about 3 years ago | (#37676624)

In the CCCP, EVE Online Deconstructs You!

Player Perspective (5, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 years ago | (#37676646)

I'm a long time player who's watched this whole thing play out in disbelief. The vast majority of players couldn't care less about the current avatar or virtual goods scheme, or in fact the "ship spinning" that the apology letter talks about. The problem is that the company gets all it's income from one game (EVE) and is spending it developing Dust 514 (a PS3 exclusive that most EVE players will never play) and World Of Darkeness (a vampire and werewolf MMO that most EVE players will never play). As a result, EVE has gone without any new content for what feels like years. The "new" avatar system for EVE is basically a mass beta test for the Dust/WOD character system, and has no new gameplay at all.

The playerbase thought that the microtransactions launch was frankly insane (players of a hypercapitalistic game understand wanting to make money, but the way it was done made far less than they could have, AND pissed everyone off), and the leaks from inside the company suggest that most of the employees did as well. Many of them were players before the were devs, and they didn't like the way things were heading. As a result there were mass in game protests, which a leaked memo from the CEO acknowledged, but stated that they would be ignored, and that the company would listen to what people did rather than said, predictably precipitating mass unsubscriptions. CCP are dangerously overreaching themselves at the moment, with the speculation being that their finance arrangements are precarious, having overrun their timescales for producing their two new titles. Players and developers who have invested years into the game - far more than the sum total of official development - have written tools and created both fiction and real history in the game's universe, and don't want to see it vanish into the ether because of the incompetence of the company that runs it.

In short: the players want to play the game they signed up for, and want their subs to go towards new content for the game that they are paying for, not development of new titles they don't play.

Re:Player Perspective (1)

L4t3r4lu5 (1216702) | about 3 years ago | (#37676728)

As an ex EVE player, all I can say is...

Mod parent up.

Re:Player Perspective (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 years ago | (#37677606)

I have been playing for almost one year, and the game is everything I have looked for in an MMO. Even with my relative inexperience with and in the game I couldn't figure out why they where doing the captains quarters development or the Dust first person shooter (on the PS3). The micro transactions I got, but I thought for sure it would be for ship vanity items, like custom paint jobs, etc.... To be honest, I turned off the captains quarters within an hour and have not turned it back on. I would have at least tried Dust, but don't own a PS3. And the vanity items for sale are only for your avatar, that only you can see. Seriously that is three fails in a row.... I feel like my two monthly subscriptions are being wasted. The CEO of the company SHOULD be held accountable for this. Focus on what got you to where you are, perfect and add to it. I truly believe Dust will be a complete failure.

Re:Player Perspective (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 years ago | (#37677784)

For me you could sum up their issues by just saying 'CCP is showing how unprofessional they are *yet again*', which is what drove me off EVE long ago.

Re:Player Perspective (3, Interesting)

RogueyWon (735973) | about 3 years ago | (#37678052)

I'm not an Eve player and I'm unlikely to ever be - I had a housemate who was big into it once, and while the idea was cool, every time he started talking about the details, it sent me to sleep.

That said, I am a shooter player. Ok, I'm more singleplayer than multiplayer these days, but I've been keeping an eye on Dust 514. I don't claim perfect prescience, but I do generally have a fairly good instinct for which shooters are going to survive and which aren't. And I would bet quite a lot of money that Dust 514 is going to fail spectacularly.

The market for "online shooters" is rather more competitive than the market for "online space trading and combat role playing economics simulators". The market for sci-fi themed online shooters is, if anything, particularly vicious. Halo, Killzone and Gears of War have their followings - and there is some really intense brand loyalty out there. Seriously, if you thought vi vs emacs could get heated, it is nothing to Killzone vs Gears.

Games like Space Marine can achieve reasonable success in this market on the basis of a decent enough singleplayer campaign and multiplayer that's fun for a quick blast. Team Fortress 2 managed to get marketshare because it's Valve, and hence automatically gets attention. But I just cannot imagine that a title like Dust 514, from a developer with no background in the genre, based on an IP that most console shooter players would consider snooze-worthy, with no particularly exciting or different gameplay innovations (Planetside already did the persistent-world thing) will manage to get the kind of self-sustaining player base it needs to succeed on a long term micro-transaction supported basis.

If CCP have bet the farm on the success of Dust, then I suspect Eve may be in for a troubled future.

Re:Player Perspective (1)

KermodeBear (738243) | about 3 years ago | (#37679420)

with no particularly exciting or different gameplay innovations

This is the one part that is incorrect. Dust 514 and Eve Online are supposed to tie together and have some sort of interaction, based around Eve's Planetary Interaction feature. I don't know of another MMO that interacts directory, or indirectly, with another MMO.

Granted, we don't know the details of the interaction or how closely tied the two games will be at that point, but it still interesting and could lead to some fun interactions between player groups.

It gets worse... (1)

random coward (527722) | about 3 years ago | (#37680504)

Its even worse than that.
Its tied to the playstation3. It will be coming out at the end of the PS3 lifecycle.

Who is going to buy a game that is supposed to be a persistent shooter on a platform that is at end of life? If CCP sticks with PS3 play on their expansions then they loose the new/better factor of the PS4, go to PS4 and people are pissed they can't play the game they just bought last year. Play on both and its crappy for everyone...

Then the tie in to EVE is very risky. To many dust players vs. eve players and not enough for them to do, not enough dust players and hard to accomplish stuff in eve. Wars slow done in eve dusties get bored. Dusties start leaving eve players have harder time fighting wars.

Anyone think CCP is smart enough to solve these problems on their first release?

Re:Player Perspective (1)

Some Bitch (645438) | about 3 years ago | (#37680642)

no particularly exciting or different gameplay innovations

CCP employs two economists, one to look after economics in Eve and one to develop the economy for Dust 514. You know of any other team based persistent shooters with a deep economy?

Re:Player Perspective (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 years ago | (#37682450)

no, ship spinning was one of the major things that people quit over.... removal of the hanger for the terrible CQ that was slow to do anything, or look at a door...

yes, WOD is a bad idea in general, but Dust will integrate into eve which will offer new markets, production and probably change PI or sovereignty rules.
yes, more money for fighting in space is what players want
incarna is the worst expansion of any game ever.

Re:Player Perspective (1)

Kagura (843695) | about 3 years ago | (#37686774)

Wait, did they remove ship-spinning and make CQ mandatory?

Re:Player Perspective (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 years ago | (#37684294)

I thought this whole thing was a bunch of whiners until I read this post. I don't care if they want to make other games, and I am really looking forward to dust (even though I don't have a ps3) but they have neglected the world, and I guess I just hadn't realized that until now.

Almost entirely, but not completely, bullshit (4, Insightful)

zergl (841491) | about 3 years ago | (#37676696)

The EVE MT experiment did not just fail because of that, it failed because of a multitude of reasons, most of which a sane person would have seen coming from miles away.

First of all, the NEX Store (the name of this abomination, yes I'm biased against it, deal with it) was released in a vacuum of a completely single player environment. The only place your purchase will be seen in all its glory is in the confines of your own game client in a shabby little hole called the Captain's Quarter (or dismissively, the Captain's Closet). Multiplayer Avatar interaction was indefinitely postponed for now (they finally admitted/realized that they had nothing fun in terms of gameplay value on the drawing board for it [eveonline.com] , go figure), so the only way your purchase is visible to other players is through the Tiny Avatar portrait (which is one of the reasons why the Monocle was the only item seeing significant sales, the other being trolls buying them to enrage the more easily excited opponents of microtransactions in EVE).

Second, the concept of a market-less (if you ignore the resale), infinite supply item is diametrically opposed to the core concept of EVE's player run economy and sandbox nature. Everything in EVE has a price defined by supply and demand. The price of the Vanity Items is based solely on the current ISK equivalent value of a month's worth of game time.
For a more sane approach on that and how it would be at least somewhat acceptable, I made a thread about that on a community forum [failheap-challenge.com] in the wake of the ingame riots.

Third, even the low-price tier is still retardedly expensive. Even the cheapest items still cost 1000 AUR which amounts to 1/3 of a PLEX (the Gametime Code token which converts to 3000 AUR, clocking in at around 17 USD from a cheap supplier) and a full set of clothes (boots, pants, shirt/jacket, etc) would set you back over 20 bucks worth of PLEX/Gametime.

The reason given in TFA, while certainly not wrong as it really was bloody stupid to launch with almost exclusively high-tier items, compounds with all this and resulted in a huge backlash against CCP over it (and other poor decisions and a backlog of frustration over the last two years of neglect towards the core gameplay) but was definitely not the only or even the main reason for it.

I should probably also point out that the prices of the items in general are also hugely immersion breaking. The ISK equivalent price of a monocle (the highest priced item) is roughly that of a dreadnought. Which is a capital ship. The second largest and expensive tier of ships (after supercapitals).
And even the cheapest boots cost as much as a battleship.
Admittedly, you apparently buy a lifetime subscription to your clothes as they don't get destroyed upon player death like implants (another decidedly un-EVE feature of the Vanity Items) but that still seems somewhat extreme...

Re:Almost entirely, but not completely, bullshit (3, Insightful)

zergl (841491) | about 3 years ago | (#37676740)

Oh, and I forgot one other point that was pointed out in another comment:

I'm already bloody paying a premium subscription price for EVE (well, not any more at the moment) and double dipping (or rather attempting to do so) into a customer's wallet like that also offended quite a lot of players in conjunction with the idiotic price points. A couple of EUR/USD for a full set of high tier clothes might have been acceptable to some in that context, but the way it was rolled out, not a chance.

Microtransactions have a place in gaming. That place is Free To Play games or to justify further development time on an already aging one time purchase title (like Team Fortress 2 before it became completely F2P and MT based).

Re:Almost entirely, but not completely, bullshit (1)

KermodeBear (738243) | about 3 years ago | (#37679372)

You are absolutely correct about the double-dipping, and how MT belongs in a free-to-play game rather than a game with an already lofty monthly subscription. My greatest fear is all of the references that Hilmar (the CEO of CCP) makes towards "where the MMO industry is heading". He seems to be very, very interested in this free-to-play, MT-supported business model and I am certain that he wants to push Eve down this path. It won't work; the playerbase will leave in droves should that happen.

Re:Almost entirely, but not completely, bullshit (1)

Darinbob (1142669) | about 3 years ago | (#37683056)

But they can only double-dip if you let them. You are not required to buy these items and from what I hear they're just cosmetic. So it shouldn't matter to player A if player B buys them. Game companies have figured out that there are enough players out there willing to buy fluff (or at least sneak into mom's purse and borrow the credit card). Ie, see WoW's $25 glitter mount. There's no way a company can pass this stuff up, they'd have their shareholders threatening to sue if they don't.

Re:Almost entirely, but not completely, bullshit (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 years ago | (#37676784)

>Multiplayer Avatar interaction was indefinitely postponed
That struck me as odd for an mmo... it sounded like it's a single-player experience.
For those of you who, like me, don't know Eve, normally in Eve you only see each other's ships, but it is multi-player.

Re:Almost entirely, but not completely, bullshit (1)

zergl (841491) | about 3 years ago | (#37676802)

>Multiplayer Avatar interaction was indefinitely postponed
That struck me as odd for an mmo... it sounded like it's a single-player experience.
For those of you who, like me, don't know Eve, normally in Eve you only see each other's ships, but it is multi-player.

Correct, I probably should have worded that better. You can interact with other player's spaceships (preferably through violence :D), but your virtual flesh and blood Avatar is currently only accessible in said single player environment (or a portrait).

Re:Almost entirely, but not completely, bullshit (1)

dcollins (135727) | about 3 years ago | (#37676812)

As a non-Eve player, I'd like to say: That's a very nice writeup. Thank you for that.

Re:Almost entirely, but not completely, bullshit (1)

Rogerborg (306625) | about 3 years ago | (#37677216)

Yup, agreed. Oh, and did you spot the significant line: "Once Incarna hits its stride, EVE will be more personal, and thus more accessible to general audiences. Visual self-expression in a virtual setting is a core psychological component of gaming; most people need to see their avatars, or something vaguely humanoid, or else they donâ(TM)t connect with the game."

See, that's why EVE is and always has been failing and so unpopular - no monocles . He's clearly still obsessed with going after the Sims in Space mass audience. Nullsec, more ships, you know space things are just tossed out as incidental issues. It'll be hot tubs and gyms first, mark my words.

Re:Almost entirely, but not completely, bullshit (1)

Rogerborg (306625) | about 3 years ago | (#37677222)

Slashduh ate my <sarcasm>tags</sarcasm> around the "failing and so unpopular" line above, in case it wasn't obvious. :imagine eye roll emoticon here:

Re:Almost entirely, but not completely, bullshit (2)

bug1 (96678) | about 3 years ago | (#37677258)

You also left out that the items where not even design to suit Eve gameplay.

Some of the core professions in eve are Mining, Pirating, Trading, and general PvE/PvP.

Do they sell a pair of miners overalls for a miner, a simple black eyepatch for a pirate, a rich looking suit, or even a general space helmet, no.

If they had a pet parrot to perch on your shoulder, guarantee they would sell more of them than monocles (at any price).

Fact is the clothing was designed for other titles CCP is developing, CCP is "leveraging there assets" to try and get something for nothing.
 

Re:Almost entirely, but not completely, bullshit (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 years ago | (#37678620)

You also left out that the items where not even design to suit Eve gameplay.

Some of the core professions in eve are Mining, Pirating, Trading, and general PvE/PvP.

Do they sell a pair of miners overalls for a miner, a simple black eyepatch for a pirate, a rich looking suit, or even a general space helmet, no.

If they had a pet parrot to perch on your shoulder, guarantee they would sell more of them than monocles (at any price).

Fact is the clothing was designed for other titles CCP is developing, CCP is "leveraging there assets" to try and get something for nothing.

Don't you mean "leveraging them there assets"?

What people forget: EVE already had MT (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 years ago | (#37677408)

The Plex system allowed players to change real life currency into game currency. Players with lots of $ to spend have a significant advantage since they can buy better ships, equipment and so on. I failed to see why the new micro-transaction system was necessary in the first place.

My best guess is, Sony made them do it in order to allow sideways plug into the upcoming FPS game.

Secondly, you are right that the infinite supply of "things" goes totally against the market strategy of EVE. Player make objects that they sell for in-game profit. If anything, EVE should have sold "Blueprints" to the vanity items with limited runs - the mechanics for this already existed at launch.

One thing that is more dangerous to EVE than to other MMORPG - most serious players have at least 2 accounts and pay for it. If CCP annoys one serious player, 2 accounts are unsubscribed. Having multiple accounts in WoW for example is still the exception.

EVE needs to watch out that the game is not avalanching and the "Barbies in Space" approach clearly has not helped bring in more players.

Re:What people forget: EVE already had MT (1)

V for Vendetta (1204898) | about 3 years ago | (#37678604)

One thing that is more dangerous to EVE than to other MMORPG - most serious players have at least 2 accounts and pay for it. If CCP annoys one serious player, 2 accounts are unsubscribed.

Spot on. Add to that the fact that these older players are also the ones that add the real content to EVE - all the drama that gets mentioned on gaming web sites and blogs - makes this even worse. Without those, EVE becomes annoying for the "grunts" ... and they well leave the game, too.

Re:What people forget: EVE already had MT (1)

KahabutDieDrake (1515139) | about 3 years ago | (#37682600)

2 accounts? AHAHAHAH. Most of the players I know, granted, mostly hardcore, have 3-5 accounts. It is not in any way uncommon for someone to have more than 5. I had 3 "mains" and 6 throwaways over the years. Anyone that is part of a major nullsec alliance generally has at least 2 accounts, and more often, 3. The reason for this is pretty simple economics. In EVE, 2 ships can make a LOT more money than 1 can, and furthermore, you want a main with combat skills, and an Alt with industrial skills, and maybe another Alt with covert skills and maybe another Alt with the ability to fly a freighter... etc etc etc. Furthermore, if you have any idea what you are doing, 3 accounts can make enough ISK in 1 month to pay for all 3 accounts. Depending on how you go about this, you might only need to log in once a month or so, for each account.

So yeah, CCP is in deep shit when it comes to pissing off their player base. They claim subscriber numbers in the 300k range (last I checked), but as a player in since beta, I know for a fact that number is closer to 1/3 of what they claim. They might have 300k accounts, but only 100k players. You start pissing off large groups of those players and EVE will die in a matter of weeks. Interestingly, EVE has a tipping point that most MMO's don't have. That is, signification portions of the game universe are the direct result of player interactions. The ships, weapons, ammo, space stations, and all the "infrastructure" in Nullsec is entirely provided by players. If enough players leave to depopulate major sections of the map, the game world begins to crumble, FAST.

Re:What people forget: EVE already had MT (1)

KahabutDieDrake (1515139) | about 3 years ago | (#37682474)

At launch? No, those mechanics did not exist at launch. Unless... do you mean the launch of the vanity items? Because then you'd be correct. However, when EVE launched, blueprints were not yet correctly implemented. Arguably, it took 3 years to get that part right.

Someone else pointed this out, but I think it bears repeating. The vanity items and cloths are NOT designed for EVE. They are assets from WoD or maybe even DUST. CCP decided to do a quick and dirty little trick by introducing them to eve, along with the CQ, which is another asset from WoD.

Eve is dying (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 years ago | (#37676900)

Eve is 8 years old getting older. It is niche and at end of life on life support.

World of Darkness... is CCP's future.

Eve Incarna Carbon is a PROTOTYPE for World of Darkness... CCP even state this themselves in press interviews.

They are just milking Eve for World of Darkness funding.

Don't kid yourselves, get a new playground, a new game. Move on.

Quit pumping new real money into Eve, stop funding CCP.

Send a very loud message to the MMO industry, make CCP with Eve go the same way as Star Wars Galaxies.

Into Failure.

World of Darkness is in jeopardy now, this is obvious.

STAY THE COURSE!

He's still still saying Arcana is the future (1)

Rogerborg (306625) | about 3 years ago | (#37677122)

Still saying that the reason people got into EVE - spaceships and stuff - is all wrong, and what you all really want to play is The Sims In Space.

Note those words, little else in his mea culpa is particularly significant. It's not "Arcana was a bad concept" it's "Arcana just didn't go far enough." Get your monocle polish ready.

Re:He's still still saying Arcana is the future (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 years ago | (#37678658)

you are definitely an Eve player who is now space paranoid.

i've been playing for a while, since 2006(certainly not as long as some of my friends) but it never ceases to amaze me how strongly people are psychologically impacted by anything Eve related. This is especially the case if they've spent any time out in 0.0 or gotten mired in alliance politics.

At somepoint though, you have to recognize, being paranoid, and trying to read between every line will do more harm than good. If you just stay docked in a station, then, no, you're not risking anything but the money you spend on your subscription

Nothing wrong with premium content (1)

DrXym (126579) | about 3 years ago | (#37677174)

As long as it's restricted to purely cosmetic stuff. If someone wants to buy a pimp hat to complete their image, well go knock yourself out, buy that pimp hat. Or if some corp wants their fleet to be fabulous pink, well go ahead and buy it.

The problem comes for a subscription service when the premium content isn't just cosmetic but puts people who pay extra at an advantage. For example perhaps someone could buy boosters that speed up production, or learning, or reduce overheads. And anyone who chooses not to pay ends up a second class citizen.

Obviously if Eve were F2P it wouldn't be an issue, after all the entire F2P model is in selling stuff on an a la carte basis. But it's subscription based and the players are so hard core that I doubt F2P would even work without substantial changes, possibly a separate universe to accommodate them. As such, CCP should stop trying to screw their player base over. Sell the cosmetic shit but drawn a line on the ground and do not step over it.

Re:Nothing wrong with premium content (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 years ago | (#37677380)

Or if some corp wants their fleet to be fabulous pink, well go ahead and buy it.

Oh gawd. An enormous fleet of Thorax ships [wikia.com] painted as nature intended. Great going, you've just described the entirety of EVE Online - enormous flocks of space cocks that kill.

Re:Nothing wrong with premium content (1)

daid303 (843777) | about 3 years ago | (#37677416)

When I played, we where calling the http://eve.wikia.com/wiki/Apocalypse [wikia.com] "The golden banana", pun intended. Quite a few EVE ships look like sex toys...

JESUS H (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 years ago | (#37677396)

How the hell is $65 a "micro-transaction"? I haven't played Eve for a year or so (quit just before Incarna) but this is just.... wrong. If you want to get micro-transactions right, take a look at Valve and the Team Fortress 2 hat system. Items are a few quid. I paid £11.99 for my Familiair Fez (now they're much cheaper!). But $65? I could buy a couple of games on Steam for that, or a new release. It's ridiculous.

Watch what they do, not what they say (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 years ago | (#37677458)

So, I guess Himlar saw what we can do then :)

Game mechanics, not avatars (1)

gatkinso (15975) | about 3 years ago | (#37677688)

How about being able to hide - truly hide. Not instantly appear on local, or in an overview.

Collision damage. Mining laser dual use (should be able to cut a ship in half with a strip miner!), planets should be able to host giant missile batteries, the ability to orbit planets and moons..... jeez the list is endless.

Hell the ability to warp to the point of your choosing, forget warpables.

Stuff like that.

Instead we get captains quarters.

Re:Game mechanics, not avatars (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 years ago | (#37677798)

This This This This!

but they aren't listening...

I have two accounts going on 3 years old, and it feels like its been going down hill for a while now. The only reason I don't quit is that its still a wonderfully deep and broad game, and they still might pull it out.

Re:Game mechanics, not avatars (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 years ago | (#37677918)

How about being able to hide - truly hide. Not instantly appear on local, or in an overview.

Already there, hop in a wormhole.

I'd rather have stargate construction and npc refuelers.

Sounds like the CU from SWG (1)

fallen1 (230220) | about 3 years ago | (#37677966)

...all over again. Except the CU affected game play and this is just highway robbery on the new digital highway. Hmm, let me explain. No, it would take too long, let me sum up -- based on the posts here from current EVE players about the background of what is happening, this whole event has the _feel_ of the SWG community after the CU and is moving towards the feel of the NGE implosion.

Sucks for long-term players, regardless of your game of choice. I had three accounts on Star Wars Galaxies at the height of my playing. A LOT of the people I gamed with did. We all, to the last person, left by the time of NGE. Maybe CCP will get its shit together and stop trying to use EVE to beta-test for their other games. Or at least stop trying to get you to pay for their R&D through EVE, other than a subscription.

A Bigger Problem Was Incarna (1)

szyzyg (7313) | about 3 years ago | (#37678816)

A lot of the player anger was driven by the fact that this arrived as part of an 'expansion' that managed to take away popular features and forced players to use the Walking In Stations interface even though said interface was incredibly resource intensive and melted GPU's. Also, they screwed up several months previously when at the last minute they dropped support for older CPU's because the library that simulated clothes and hair needed SSE3 extensions. The deployment of the new avatar technology has just been a mess and actual 'flying in space' features have been left unmaintained at the expense.

It should also be pointed out you didn't need to spend real money for microtransactions, you could buy PLEX from other players (who wanted to convert real money into game money) and then, this being Eve, you could troll other players by flying around with MT items that cost more than a capital ship.

Re:A Bigger Problem Was Incarna (1)

msu320 (1084789) | about 3 years ago | (#37680246)

It's definitely worth noting that micro-transactions were only a lightning rod issue- there are ships that are worth 3500$ flying on the server. Although 68 dollars for a clothing item is hardly considered a micro-transaction.

The missing spin-ship 'feature' was noticed so severely because spinning the camera around your ship in a station was the only thing you could do when you did not want to lose a ship that cost so much in real-life money or in game time to replace. Ships you could afford to lose are worth little in a real fight besides preventing bigger enemy ships from warping out before the big ships on your side can lock on. In those cases your "tackler" frigate blows up, and you still lose these somewhat expensive cybernetic implants that increase how fast you learn skills. Overall- the cost per death is unbelievably high for a game.

The biggest reason why EvE has never caught on with a larger population is the spec's required to *really* play are downright exclusionary. It's almost not worth mentioning that most players in the game play with the lowest possible settings for larger battles, and zoom out during those battles so that all that's visible are the UI targeting brackets on the ships. fly in anything less than a capital ship, and you can't zoom out enough to hide the ship models.

Having not played the game since Incursions,which were a failure in released format, it seems that more players are catching onto the polished turd that EvE is.

When is the EVE online community NOT pissed off? (1, Insightful)

elrous0 (869638) | about 3 years ago | (#37679188)

They're ALWAYS in an uproar about some shit or another. That's like saying "Linux community upset about changes to kernal" or "Sony being criticized for heavy-handed move" or "Apple fans anxiously awaiting next Apple announcement."

Re:When is the EVE online community NOT pissed off (1)

marcroelofs (797176) | about 3 years ago | (#37680576)

It's different this time. If it was FOSS there would be a fork right now.

Re:When is the EVE online community NOT pissed off (1)

war4peace (1628283) | about 3 years ago | (#37681534)

Yeah, but this time it looks like the online player numbers are slowly but certainly declining.
Look at this link: http://eve-offline.net/?server=tranquility [eve-offline.net]
(the 6-months data seems to not show up for some reason) ...Two of the missing accounts from there are mine; I quit in June for reasons other than MT introduction.

Re:When is the EVE online community NOT pissed off (1)

Darinbob (1142669) | about 3 years ago | (#37683092)

But it's a very old game that has not had much in the way of updates. EVE has been holding onto players pretty well for a game of that age. Any decline can not be attributed to just one factor, and of all the factors the biggest is probably players getting tired of it and wanting to do something new.

He showed players the door! (1)

random coward (527722) | about 3 years ago | (#37680074)

CCP showed their players the door. Literally.
When you turn off the amazingly resource hungry, badly designed, captains closet, the game literally shows you the door. And those nice Icelandic folk still don't understand that "showing someone the door" is an american idiom for kicking them out. There were so many stupid idiotic mistakes in this release that clearly showed the pure incompetence of CCP. If, as seems likely, they were as incompatent with their money, and with the Iceland/EU and EU monetary issues they're likely to go bankrupt soon.

Eve Is Real ... Misguided (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 years ago | (#37680646)

I'm letting my subs go until there is a drastic change in management and T3 ships across the board. And yes, ship skins would be kind of nice; at least other players could SEE those. But, despite high subscription fees, none of this is happening, because all the effort is going to two new games which are both doomed to fail. Since they are ignoring their player base, this apparently the only way to voice my opinion.

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