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Blue Coat Denies Its Devices Helping Syrian Gov't

timothy posted more than 2 years ago | from the und-I'm-learning-chinese-says-werner-von-braun dept.

Government 73

First time accepted submitter drmemnoch writes with a follow-up to a report last week that Internet proxy / filtering / logging devices made by Sunnyvale, CA based Blue Coat Systems have been used by the Syrian government to monitor and censor Syrian's Internet usage. drmemnoch notes that "Sales to restricted countries can often occur through 3rd party resellers. Blue Coat has yet to provide any information other than denial." Specifically, the company denies direct sales, but in the linked ZDnet report kept mum on how third-party resellers might be involved. I requested comment from the company about how their products might have ended up in Syria; Steve Schick of Blue Coat has responded to that request with a more detailed denial (included below) of the company's involvement, and says that there is "no firm evidence" in the logs leaked by Telecomix that Syria has any Blue Coat equipment at all; dissection of that response is invited.Schick writes: "Blue Coat does not sell to Syria and neither do we provide any kind of technical support, professional services or software maintenance. To our knowledge, we do not have any customers in Syria.

U.S. companies are prohibited from selling to Syria. In addition, we do not allow any of our resellers, regardless of their location in the world, to sell to an embargoed country, such as Syria.

We have seen logs posted that are allegedly from a Blue Coat appliance in use in Syria. From these logs, we see no firm evidence that would determine there is Blue Coat equipment in Syria; in fact, it appears that these logs came from an appliance in a country where there are no trade restrictions. In addition, the log files appear to have come from a third party server that was storing log files uploaded from one of our appliances. The allegation that an organization penetrated one of our appliances through a security hole is flatly not true. There are no known vulnerabilities of our appliance that would allow such an action."

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BULLSHIT (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37681088)

It doesn't matter if they sell to Syria. They're a part of the problem.

Re:BULLSHIT (1)

hedwards (940851) | more than 2 years ago | (#37681298)

Apart from going out of business, precisely what do you propose they do? Seriously, once they sell their items to another company, they don't have any control over where they end up.

It remains to be seen if they truly are free of involvement here, but I wouldn't be surprised if it wasn't done by an authorized retailer.

Re:BULLSHIT (1)

LordLimecat (1103839) | more than 2 years ago | (#37681730)

You misunderstand his complaint. He thinks that there is no place for equipment or software that filters the internet at all, whether it is voluntary or not.

Re:BULLSHIT (1)

hedwards (940851) | more than 2 years ago | (#37681900)

Ah, clearly I did.

Re:BULLSHIT (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37682210)

I interviewed at that company, once. What they told me turned me off so much (privacy and spying issues) that I walked away from a pretty firm job offer.

DPI this and filter that and MITM ssl attacks.

NO THANKS.

They try to explain it as 'helping' but as Jon Stewart says, you are not helping AT ALL.

I had to say no to the job offer. I can't help bad people 'win' like that.

The whole premise is anti-freedom. Sickened me so much.

Re:BULLSHIT (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37682654)

You chose well to decline. Check out Blue Coat at glassdoor.com [glassdoor.com] . They do not look like a great place to work across the board (not just in technology).

Re:BULLSHIT (1)

Dishevel (1105119) | more than 2 years ago | (#37682750)

I only get my humor from Jon Stewart.
He is a funny guy.
But when you dig into his humor you do not get a coherent, logical political stance.
You get funny, lean to the left humor.
I like Jon Stewart. I liked him more when he knew he was just a comedian.

Re:BULLSHIT (1)

LordLimecat (1103839) | more than 2 years ago | (#37684350)

Wait, you interviewed there and you didnt even understand their core business? You do know that filtering is basically what they do right?

Do you start your interviews off by asking, "so....what is your company called, what do you do, and why am I here"?

Its like getting pissed off at Microsoft because you discovered mid-interview that theyre responsible for Windows.

Re:BULLSHIT (1)

aztracker1 (702135) | more than 2 years ago | (#37682388)

Yeah.. and intel, and any other vendor that sold hardware to Syria is part of the problem too...

First time accepted submitter what? (1)

Rosco P. Coltrane (209368) | more than 2 years ago | (#37681092)

Seriously, what's the deal with that "first time accepted submitter" thing? What does it bring to the story? Why do we care?

Re:First time accepted submitter what? (1)

ph4cr (775696) | more than 2 years ago | (#37681162)

Agreed. Is this a new policy? How does one get "accepted" to be a submitter? Is there a litmus test? Geek knowledge? Will we have to provide you with our real names ala Google + ? Just sayin!

Re:First time accepted submitter what? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37681236)

You get "accepted" to be a "submitter" when you "submit" something and it gets "accepted". Seriously, it's not fucking rocket science, and it's how Slashdot has always worked. It is in fact the very concept that Slashdot was created on.

  And mentioning first time submitters is something they've done for about as long as I can remember. I do think they changed the wording though, pretty sure it used to just say "first time submitter" which was misleading, since you may submit dozens of articles before one gets actually accepted.

Re:First time accepted submitter what? (1)

Runaway1956 (1322357) | more than 2 years ago | (#37681466)

Yes, it's the litmus test. Lick the paper strip, if it turns blue, you can post. If it turns red, you can't post. There's a well known correlation between your body's acidity and your intelligence, not to mention your relevancy. /sarcasm

Sorry, couldn't resist. Litmus test, LMAO!!

Re:First time accepted submitter what? (2)

idontgno (624372) | more than 2 years ago | (#37682162)

There's a well known correlation between your body's acidity and your intelligence, not to mention your relevancy.

I've submitted several times, and never been accepted, but I'm not bitter.

Re:First time accepted submitter what? (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37682434)

Exactly. Blue = base = bitter taste. If you're not bitter, that would mean you're acidic = red = sour.

Re:First time accepted submitter what? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37682040)

It is indeed silly, especially since I've submitted and had stories accepted several times, but because they were submitted as AC they would never be recognized as anything new. So if I suddenly started using my name or some pseudonym I'd probably be called a "first-time submitter" even though I would not be.

I don't know why they're doing this, but it is a useless distinction.

Re:First time accepted submitter what? (1)

gorzek (647352) | more than 2 years ago | (#37682836)

It's a few extra words in the summary. Get over it. It sure isn't worth so much bitching.

Litmus Test (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37682710)

As I recall my first year chemistry, Litmus paper turns bLue in aLkaline solutions, and reD in aciDic solutions. But that was not in the USA where colors are different from colours.

In the rest of the world,Blue is the colour of the right-wing, more conservative political party, and Red is the colour of the left-wing more socialist party.

However in the USA, Red is the color of the Republicans (right wing comservative) and Blue is the color of the Democrats (left-wing progressive

Re:First time accepted submitter what? (1)

Nyder (754090) | more than 2 years ago | (#37683684)

Agreed. Is this a new policy? How does one get "accepted" to be a submitter? Is there a litmus test? Geek knowledge? Will we have to provide you with our real names ala Google + ?

Just sayin!

Common sense tells me that a "First time accepted submitter" is someone who's submitted articles before, but it never got accepted, and this article is the first time that one of this persons submissions has been accept.

Re:First time accepted submitter what? (1)

Belial6 (794905) | more than 2 years ago | (#37681174)

My guess would be to counter the endless complaints of favoritism to specific submitters. Perhaps Slashdot is trying to widen their net for submitters, and they feel that most people don't think their submission will even be considered. Thus they make a point to show that they do in fact take first time submitters.

Re:First time accepted submitter what? (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37681204)

Freshly reincarnated submitter Roland Piquepaille writes...

Re:First time accepted submitter what? (2)

Roland Piquepaille (780675) | more than 2 years ago | (#37681358)

I resent that...

Re:First time accepted submitter what? (1)

Runaway1956 (1322357) | more than 2 years ago | (#37681486)

Actually, you resemble that . . .

Re:First time accepted submitter what? (1)

dcollins (135727) | more than 2 years ago | (#37681780)

I've been here for over 10 years, and I've never seen any of these complaints of submitter favoritism. Not once that I can recall. Maybe there's some insider-y meta-forum I don't know about.

But this "first time submitter" thing craps on my face every single day now.

Re:First time accepted submitter what? (1)

VGPowerlord (621254) | more than 2 years ago | (#37682150)

I've been here for over 10 years, and I've never seen any of these complaints of submitter favoritism. Not once that I can recall. Maybe there's some insider-y meta-forum I don't know about.

No, they've out right in the open. I don't know how you've missed them.

Heck, I think even I've complained about it, particularly when Daniel Eran Dilger managed to get his largely fictional Pro-Apple stories (see: Roughly Drafted Magazine) published once or twice a week.

(FYI: While I'm not a big fan of Apple, if your stories have actual facts in them, I'm not against Slashdot publishing them.)

Re:First time accepted submitter what? (1)

fastest fascist (1086001) | more than 2 years ago | (#37681842)

Just more noise, like that "story" tag that is attached to, well, everything, as far as I can tell.

Really (1)

masternerdguy (2468142) | more than 2 years ago | (#37681110)

A likely story.

yoU FAIL it (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37681180)

whiLe the project Come on baby...and lizard - In o#ther

Sounds like an attempted smear campaign (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37681192)

This story is bogus. Bluecoat is one of the biggest players in the content filtering space. Why would they break the law to sell a couple of boxes to Syria?

Re:Sounds like an attempted smear campaign (1)

scdeimos (632778) | more than 2 years ago | (#37684402)

They took Gordon Gekko at his word: Greed is good.

Look, we've got the purchase order to prove it! (3, Funny)

Qzukk (229616) | more than 2 years ago | (#37681238)

See, right here, we sold this equipment to "Totally Not a Front Company for Syria's Government, Inc" in some town called Syria, which I think was in Texas or somewhere.

They did pay a lot for the shipping, though.

Re:Look, we've got the purchase order to prove it! (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37681380)

"I'm not a witch, I'm not a witch!"
"But you are dressed as one!"
"They dressed me like this! And this isn't my nose, it's a false one!"
"Did you dress her like this?"
"No! No, no no, no, no! Yes. A bit! A bit."

Re:Look, we've got the purchase order to prove it! (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37681408)

The town I live in (in the US) has the same name as a town in Syria.

Re:Look, we've got the purchase order to prove it! (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37681734)

The town I live in (in the US) has the same name as a town in Syria.

Wow, really, how interesting for you, obviously you must have lived an exciting life waiting for the moment to share your totally pedestrian connection with this topic.

Reading between the lines (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37681246)

From these logs, we see no firm evidence that would determine there is Blue Coat equipment in Syria; in fact, it appears that these logs came from an appliance in a country where there are no trade restrictions. In addition, the log files appear to have come from a third party server that was storing log files uploaded from one of our appliances. The allegation that an organization penetrated one of our appliances through a security hole is flatly not true. There are no known vulnerabilities of our appliance that would allow such an action."

So, there is Blue Coat equipment logging Syrian connectivity, but it's not physically located in Syria. It doesn't belong to the Syrians, it belongs to a non-Syrian orgamization. Nobody (not even our hypothetical Syrians :) actually penetrated the security of said machine, quite plausibly because they were authorized to use it.

There are so many loopholes in those details it's pretty sad. On a par with "The US doesn't torture. The US doesn't send people to other countries to be tortured. The US just happens to have someone hanging around when some other countries (ironically, Syria's probably one of those countries :) as their police conduct aggressive interrogations of people they suspect of doing bad things."

Maybe Blue Coat's completely innocent here. But the more details they add, the more they make this appear like a non-denial-denial. Whether they have plausible (or even implausible :) deniability or not, they would probably do better PR for themselves if they just issued a flat "we comply with US law, and where applicable, to the laws of all other jurisdictions, and have no further comment".

original accusation came from a (2)

nimbius (983462) | more than 2 years ago | (#37681310)

french website that conducted their own investigation of the logs and determined that because they saw a bluecoat header, it was obviously bluecoat. they then reminded their audience they had no concrete evidence bluecoat had sold directly to syria any product. furthermore from a very generic, single header line, the exact model of the product was determined.

id be way more inclined to believe the article as well, had it not been ended with the line "This is year 2011, states and private companies are here to protect you feel safe."

http://reflets.info/bluecoats-role-in-syrian-censorship-and-nationwide-monitoring-system/ [reflets.info]

Needless. (0)

unity100 (970058) | more than 2 years ago | (#37681326)

In capitalism you sell your mother if there is a good bidder. Or if you cant sell a tree for example, you cut it down so noone will use it for free and reduce the price of other trees you are wanting to sell. so asking a corporation to justify their shit is pointless. they will just lie.

Re:Needless. (1)

phil_aychio (2438214) | more than 2 years ago | (#37681414)

I can't believe BlueCoat would go through all this hassle to prevent some Syrians from mining bitcoins.

What's missing here? (1)

oldhack (1037484) | more than 2 years ago | (#37681366)

Tim, you implied that the vendor's denial was half-assed mumble-wamble, but the response you produced seem pretty categorical.

What are you trying to get at? Is there more to the background you have failed to note? Cuz, as it is, it appears you're grasping the straws to smear the outfit.

Re:What's missing here? (1)

timothy (36799) | more than 2 years ago | (#37682490)

Not trying to smear, and it seems like a pretty clear denial to me as well.

There are two things in the answer that I'd like to see (preferrably) non Blue Coat employees address, though:

1) "The allegation that an organization penetrated one of our appliances through a security hole is flatly not true. There are no known vulnerabilities of our appliance that would allow such an action" Is that the case? I don't know enough about it, but I'm sure there are people who do.

2) "it appears that these logs came from an appliance in a country where there are no trade restrictions" -- I'd like to know what about the logs conveys that information. Not proposing anything conspiratorial, but curious.

timothy

Re:What's missing here? (1)

oldhack (1037484) | more than 2 years ago | (#37682838)

Somebody mod the parent up - timothy is elaborating on his story post.

Re:What's missing here? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37683274)

I was one of the people that found the appliances in the first place, and they can still be scanned with NMAP at 82.137.200.42-56. Which belongs to "Tarassul inetnet Service Provider" according to a quick check in the RIPE database at: http://apps.db.ripe.net/search/query.html?searchtext=82.137.200.42&flags=&sources=RIPE_NCC&grssources=&inverse=&types=

If use nmap -T4 -A -v -sC -PN 82.137.200.42 The services on 80 and 8080 used to respond as Bluecoat Proxies. This has only changed in the last 72 hours as the Syrian ISPs are working to cover their tracks. NMAP's OS detection guesses that the devices are Bluecoat SGOS 5.X devices, but this is not exact. I have NMAP scans from before as well as the ability so show other Bluecoat devices at another set of ISPs.

I also have access to underacted logs from 82.137.200.42 that show client IPs in netblocks that belong to Syrian ISPs. In addition I have network scans done on other Syrian ISPs with devices reporting in the SCS range, as well as evidence that these devices are linked to SCS's backbone network along with other devices labeled as Netapp Netcaches with was sold off to Bluecoat in the past few years.

1. There was no security vulnerability, the Syrians did nothing to secure access to these logs as Bluecoat recommended. With Bluecoat devices you can either log to a Syslog server or dump the files to a FTP share. They chose to use a FTP share on a server loaded with Windows 2008 so that they could use the windows version of Bluecoat's Log Analysis tool. The FTP share was wholly unsecured.

2. All IPs in the logs, and from what we gathered are with netblocks assigned to Syria. None of the traffic comes from an IP address that suggests otherwise and the claim that the logs say anything of the sort . They literally made that part of the response up.

This blog post also shows that the Bluecoat devices in question were actively connecting back to Bluecoat from Syrian IPs to connect to Bluecoat subscription services : http://b.averysmallbird.com/entries/bluecoat-and-syria-indicators-and-culpability

Not sure how they could stop it... (2)

gtvr (1702650) | more than 2 years ago | (#37681368)

In a world where Iran has nuclear centrifuges, Mexican drug lords have military weapons, Columbian drug cartels have submarines, how could Bluecoat stop some reseller from selling something to Syria?

Re:Not sure how they could stop it... (1)

tehtest (995812) | more than 2 years ago | (#37681686)

GPS Based self-destruct code!

Our great shame (1)

bazmail (764941) | more than 2 years ago | (#37681556)

Next July 4th when you're drunk on patriotism and shedding tears while looking at old glory remember that we, the US, are one of the worlds biggest exporters of oppression. Disgusting.

Re:Our great shame (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37681818)

Bullshit. No country is perfect, but the USA is, by far, the closest thing out there.

Re:Our great shame (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37682016)

Didn't you hear the news? Being the best was too hard so the liberals and conservatives got together and agreed to aim for "Better than North Korea".

Re:Our great shame (1)

Nadaka (224565) | more than 2 years ago | (#37682248)

As an American Patriot, I am not sure its going to be that way for long (and may have already slipped from that position). America needs to do better than it is, for our own sake.

Re:Our great shame (1)

bazmail (764941) | more than 2 years ago | (#37683536)

Really? How so? Merely because you were born in it?

Re:Our great shame (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37684712)

Yeah, US is the closest we got as the worlds biggest exporter of oppression, isn't it what the OP said. Shove your patriotic rants up your patriotic ass. We try to topple their elected governments a while back and the country to the list of terrorism sponsoring countries. It is one thing to be patriotic and completely different to be an asshole in the name of patriotism.

 

Re:Our great shame (-1, Flamebait)

dave420 (699308) | more than 2 years ago | (#37686252)

The very fact you think you can define what a "perfect" country is, which is a prerequisite for deciding which country is close to said definition, speaks volumes about just how irrational your claim is. I'd absolutely love for you, Mr. AC, to explain just how you define a "perfect" country. But you won't.

Blue Coat does not intercept IM's (2)

bzImage8 (676865) | more than 2 years ago | (#37681606)

After reading TFA.. i found:

"The evidence we have collected proves that there is a ban on secured authentications for communication tools, such as MSN, Yahoo Messenger, or the Facebook Chat. Syrian people who use these services should be aware that local authorities already stoled their passwords and that all their communications are being intercepted."

And as someone who has been implementing & supporting Proxy solutions for top 500 level companies in Latin America (yea, including Blue Coat & Squid).

I can tell that at least with Blue Coat the "MSN" Interception was possible with really old versions of MSN, Blue Coat Stopped selling and even supporting the IM interception product years ago, why ? because it was really difficult to keep up with the new versions of MSN..

So:

1.- The article is misleading
2.- All the Syrian country uses MSN v 1.0

Analysis (1)

homey of my owney (975234) | more than 2 years ago | (#37681620)

Simple: Until you can prove it, we deny it.

IBM sold equipment to the nazis (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37681638)

ever wonder why the jews,polocks,gays all had numerical tattoos?

The bigger question is why do people make this kind of equipment, it is ONLY used to repress people.

Re:IBM sold equipment to the nazis (1)

LordLimecat (1103839) | more than 2 years ago | (#37681894)

Thats really not accurate, there are many companies who use this type of thing, and that really doesnt qualify as oppression. As it is the company's network, they are perfectly free to mandate what comes in and out of it.

Re:IBM sold equipment to the nazis (1)

humphrm (18130) | more than 2 years ago | (#37682070)

IBM sold what was considered a computer in those days to the Nazis, then the Nazis used them to tabulate their kills. Not the same type of computer that you typed your comment in on, but the same basic function; input, compute, output.

Also, many other companies also sold to the Nazis during the WWII period including Standard Oil (Chevron, Amoco, and later BP) and AT&T and many others.

Also, I hope you don't like Volkswagons, Porsches, Audis, Bentleys, Bugattis, Lamborghinis, SEATs, kodas or Scanias.

Re:IBM sold equipment to the nazis (1)

GameboyRMH (1153867) | more than 2 years ago | (#37682386)

Don't forget Siemens, and Mitsubishi built Japanese fighters...

Re:IBM sold equipment to the nazis (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37683128)

I haven't forgotten Siemens DPI .... Companies always make brutal dictatorships all the more easier.

Re:IBM sold equipment to the nazis (1)

earthforce_1 (454968) | more than 2 years ago | (#37685852)

Hitler kept a picture of Henry Ford on his desk; and it wasn't because he liked his cars.

Two by two (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37681788)

coats of blue.

Software is just software (2)

Sean (422) | more than 2 years ago | (#37681906)

What's next, giving the author of nmap the 3rd degree because someone did something bad with it?

Re:Software is just software (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37682552)

Blue Coat's products are hardware appliances...

BlueCoat Knew - Syria's Devices Called Home (2)

Myuu (529245) | more than 2 years ago | (#37681970)

I wrote about the matter this morning:

"It would appear that all of Syria’s BlueCoat hardware calls home to update its ability to filter and monitor new objects that it has not encountered. Equally importantly, the Syrian logs are filled with queries related to BlueCoat systems, such as ‘bluecoat data collector,’ something that a general home user would have little interest in."

http://b.averysmallbird.com/entries/bluecoat-and-syria-indicators-and-culpability [averysmallbird.com]

There is currently a BlueCoat appliance located in Syria at 82.137.200.42; if the company needs any more of the dozen or so identified addresses of their hardware, I or Telecomix would be happy to oblige.

If you have a user.... (1)

nweaver (113078) | more than 2 years ago | (#37683246)

If you have a user behind this proxy willing to run Netalyzr [berkeley.edu] and send us the results link either direct to netalyzr-help@icsi.berkeley.edu or to you, I'd be very interested in seeing if we can see the BlueCoat proxy in our Netalyzr testing.

Real easy way for Bluecoat to do it's best (1)

phayes (202222) | more than 2 years ago | (#37682156)

Bluecoat is not just a box, it's a service. If Bluecoat is serious about not wanting to be used by Syria they should blackhole Syria's IP ranges. No this can't shut off the service as the syrians could use a proxy server outside their IP ranges but it would show that Bluecoat has made an effort...

Re:Real easy way for Bluecoat to do it's best (1)

TheGratefulNet (143330) | more than 2 years ago | (#37682290)

its not just bluecoat. there are 50 companies (well, not that many but close) in the bay area, alone, who are so into DPI and other invasions of privacy and tell this to one audience as a 'security tool' and all the while selling it to the owners of the country/company as a spy tool.

I won't name names (they have lawyers; I don't) but any networking company worth anything beyond home unmanaged switches DOES have or PLANS to have DPI and sell it to many bad folks.

10 or 15 years ago, switching was hot. before that, routing was hot. now, all that is simple and solved; what's the new hotness? spying and complex hardware assisted triggering on DPI. user-written code that RUNS ON the core routers and gets its finger on the bits (directly). the big vendors are allowing user-written code to override normal routing protocols and data forwarding.

beware, that's all I can say. networking is not the 'transparent' thing it once was ;(

Re:Real easy way for Bluecoat to do it's best (1)

phayes (202222) | more than 2 years ago | (#37685554)

No argument here, I install & maintain Bluecoats & other security related solutions for a living. Fortunately for my consience, my clients are a lot less oppressive/dangereous that the SG.

What about OS tools? (2)

juosukai (1714458) | more than 2 years ago | (#37682226)

Sure, using IT infra in this ways is purely evil. And no, companies should not provide any tools for oppressive regimes.

But when will see the first complaints that Open Source tools allow governments to do largely the same things?

I'm nos saying that OS is bad, but is there anyway that OS projects can ensure that their products are used for oppressive means? /jussi

In other news... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37682476)

Illicit gambling was reported in Casablanca tonight. Local official Captain Renault was quoted as "being shocked, shocked that gambling is going on in here!".

Lets not be surprised (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37682646)

Just like Cisco, Lucent and others ethics or morals do not pad bonuses.

Bluecoat, the tyrants friend (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37682988)

The government of Myanmar (Burma) also uses Bluecoat devices to censor what their citizens can see on the internet...

Like blaming McDonalds for selling burgers used... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37684852)

...as lunch to (pick your antagonist).

So someone sells something that is used as intended to someone you don't like... You gotta get them in line behind arms dealers. The "so what" factor here is huge.

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