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Linux Mint Will Adopt Gnome 3

timothy posted more than 2 years ago | from the at-least-2-is-an-option dept.

GNOME 315

sfcrazy points to news, posted in the current blog post about Linux mint statistics, that the Linux Mint team "has thus decided that in the next version of Linux Mint 12, they will continue to support Gnome 2, but will also introduce Gnome 3." Related news from an anonymous reader:"Contributors in the GNOME community have started a GNOME desktop user survey. The GNOME Foundation wouldn't endorse any survey, but the community has put together a 23-question desktop survey. Regardless if you use GNOME, they encourage all Linux users to participate."

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315 comments

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STAR TREK EPISODE v1.01. (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37751022)

STAR TREK EPISODE 101.
CHECKOV : KEPTIN! KEPTIN THERE"S A MOWSE ON THE BRIDGE!
KIRK: YOU THINK SOOW CHECKOV? GET OUT UR PHASOR ON STUN N BLAST IT INTO SPACE.
SULU: LOL JUST LIEK THAT KLINGON SHP WE SENDEAD WHERE NO MAN HATH GOAN BEFORE>
SPOCK: CAN WE HAVE ONE MOMENT WITHOUT YOU MAKYING A HIDDEN REFERNECE TO UR POSTERIER?
SKOTTAY: HAHAHA GIVE MY MONEY BACK DOCTOR! I WIN TEH BETS ONCE AGANE!
DOCTOR: IM A DOCTOR, NOT A BANKER, NOW STFU AWL AND FIND TEH MOWUSE.
END!

Ha ha haa... Linux. (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37751052)

All three remaining desktop Linux users will be thrilled.

Re:Ha ha haa... Linux. (5, Informative)

HermMunster (972336) | more than 2 years ago | (#37751418)

Don't you mean the remaining 75 million? Linux growth continues. There's been no decline in users adopting it, only solid increases. 75-100 million users is a significant market. Stop being a troll and get back into your mom's basement (or rather back under your bridge).

Re:Ha ha haa... Linux. (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37751542)

75 million? Hahaha good joke.

Re:Ha ha haa... Linux. (1)

larry bagina (561269) | more than 2 years ago | (#37752006)

He's probably counting android. Not exactly "desktop". And for most of them, it's not "linux", it's "android".

Linux fanbois laughed at the FSF's GNU/Linux campaign, will they start insisting on Linux/Android?

Re:Ha ha haa... Linux. (3, Insightful)

RCL (891376) | more than 2 years ago | (#37752406)

I don't understand people who bash Linux. I am not talking about trolls like OP, but there are people who are serious about hating Linux [blogspot.com] .

Why would one want to demotivate people who work on an "indie" OS? Would he/she also bash amateur music bands for making "indie" music and not working for a major record label? What kind of person are such people?

GNOME Survey (3, Informative)

0racle (667029) | more than 2 years ago | (#37751078)

They might want all users to take the survey, but there is really no reason to unless you use GNOME. A good portion of the questions are basically 'How does GNOME work for you.'

Re:GNOME Survey (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37751150)

"GNOME works great! Please take away more options so I have even fewer buttons to worry about!"

Unfortunately by only asking feedback from self-selected users, they'll only get feedback that reinforces what they've already decided.

Re:GNOME Survey (3, Insightful)

Trix (5592) | more than 2 years ago | (#37751266)

Unfortunately by only asking feedback from self-selected users, they'll only get feedback that reinforces what they've already decided.

That's why more people that aren't necessarily happy with GNOME need to take the survey. I've used GNOME since the 1.0 days, but GNOME3 was enough to make me install XFCE4 -- and I'm considering dropping the whole Desktop Environment thing altogether and going back to fvwm (or something similar)

Maybe I'm just old, but I think the current direction of development has lost sight of the reason XWindows was created in the first place. The client and server shouldn't have to be on the same host. The User should be able to customize their own environment in whatever way makes it easier for them to work.

Re:GNOME Survey (1, Interesting)

aztracker1 (702135) | more than 2 years ago | (#37751604)

Personally, I *really* like the Windows 7 interface of those I've tried. XFCE and LXDE are second and third respectively... though each leaves something to be desired.. I was pretty happy with a tweaked Gnome 2 as well... I just find the convenience of having my most used apps already on the toolbar, with a shared icon, and shared space with new launches. I like the reduced system tray in Windows as well. I like that more system utilities in Gnome have better integration, even if third party efforts though. I also like some of the skins for Gnome a lot. It would be nice to have a very simply skinnable UI in Linux similar to Litestep, which was always my fav 3rd party desktop UI kit in windows until Win7.

While X11 was originally designed that way, 3D especially along with other graphics acceleration makes that type of disconnect perform badly. I would like to see something new, with X11 support still baked in for native UI. I think most people have moved more to remote desktop solutions like RDP and VNC as X11 over the internet, for example, at higher resolutions just performs rather poorly, and is a bandwidth hog.

Re:GNOME Survey (1)

Nerdfest (867930) | more than 2 years ago | (#37751966)

For me, the perfect desktop was Gnome 2 with Gnome-do and Docky. None of the new desktops really add much, if anything over the useability of that combination, for me anyway.

Re:GNOME Survey (3, Insightful)

Kagetsuki (1620613) | more than 2 years ago | (#37751630)

I was of the exact opinion as you until a day ago. Since I upgraded to to Ubuntu 11.10 I got stuck with GNOME3 (sorry, I still hate Unity) and I had a variety of issues - but many I found could be resolved in very interesting ways. Lack of a lower task-bar for example, you can use tint2 or a dock like Avant Window Manager - and the bar that comes out when you hit the bottom right of the screen already has plug-ins and modifications to make it work like a taskbar. Multi-monitor behavior bugged me as well until I learned you can change it, but I actually got hooked on the default behavior. In general my hands leave the keyboard much less now as well - alt-tab switching with that drop down selector is very intuitive and the search/launch is much nicer and more idiot proof than alt-f2 or continually opening terminals. Then today I was giving a demo to some prospective customers (dirty mac users!) and they pointed out how nice they thought it was.

I really really understand the feeling of loss and confusion over GNOME3 vs 2, I do miss my old desktop - but with just a few customization options (that look like they will come in future releases) I think I'll stick it out and enjoy the new.

By the way, rough calculation we've been using GNOME now for something like 12 years. Really up until now the biggest change was moving to the upper and lower bar by default (which I love(d)), that and ditching the stone texture on the icons...

Re:GNOME Survey (1)

Lumpy (12016) | more than 2 years ago | (#37752164)

Until you use it on a laptop and discover there is no Gnome3 tool to control the synaptics touchpad and it drives you insane....

Re:GNOME Survey (1)

julesh (229690) | more than 2 years ago | (#37751682)

Yep. GNOME3 is horrible. I'm not a regular GNOME user, but just yesterday I happened to need a Linux system quick for some maintenance and the only thing handy was an Ubuntu 11 live CD. I hate to admit it, but I had to google to figure out how to get a terminal. As far as I could tell, there is no menu of applications, just a search interface...? What the hell happened to discoverability?

Re:GNOME Survey (1)

El Capitaine (973850) | more than 2 years ago | (#37751918)

If you were running a Ubuntu 11.04/11.10 Live CD, then more likely than not you loaded Canonical's Unity interface rather than GNOME3, which imo is even worse.

Re:GNOME Survey (1)

Grishnakh (216268) | more than 2 years ago | (#37752304)

You're just supposed to know what you want, and type it into the search bar. The era of looking through a menu to see all your options is apparently over.

Luckily, KDE still hasn't changed from the traditional desktop UI. People who want a menu, or configurability, should look into it. Make sure to look at a distro that uses 4.6 or better yet, 4.7; don't bother with the latest Debian "stable" that for still uses an ancient KDE 4.4 that's full of bugs.

Re:GNOME Survey (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37752364)

You're just supposed to know what you want, and type it into the search bar. The era of looking through a menu to see all your options is apparently over.

Well I hope you're wrong; that sounds to me like all the worst features of the command line and the GUI simultaneously (And I'm a die-hard CLI jockey).

Re:GNOME Survey (1)

TaoPhoenix (980487) | more than 2 years ago | (#37751980)

I'm a perfectly targeted Potential New User and I'm trying to weave my way through the Linux maze, but I'm getting a little lost.

Last I had figured out, I'm Ex-Ubuntu after various updates stopped working on my older hardware. OpenSuse was okay, but I was thinking I wanted the Debian Packager and the improvements in Squeeze, but Debian "Raw" is too hard for newbies, so indications were leaning towards Mint-DebianEdition. I've used (and disliked!) both Gnome3 and KDE4, so I think that means I'm leaning towards XKCE as the most "Windowsy-Like" interface.

Did I get that almost right? Back on topic, as a Windows user, in a Linux environment I want to really lean on Right-Click-Does-Everything. I think I got grumpy when "things that should have been obvious, simply weren't there".

+1 (3, Insightful)

stooo (2202012) | more than 2 years ago | (#37752462)

+1
right click disappeared. But PCs are not macs, and HAVE a f*** second button !!!
no menu mean no way to find an application unless you remember the name !!
Gnome 3 is bullshit
Unity is worse

Re:GNOME Survey (1)

mmcuh (1088773) | more than 2 years ago | (#37752228)

Are you saying that they should remove all the negative options from the survey to make it simpler to use, since only a very small percentage will actually need them?

Re:GNOME Survey (1)

Tapewolf (1639955) | more than 2 years ago | (#37751240)

That was my impression. It starts with 'Do you know what GNOME is?' and then proceeds as if you use it. I never actually have unless you count Xubuntu which seems to be a weird mixture of XFCE and GNOME.

Re:GNOME Survey (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37752130)

Why would you want to participate in a survey about something you don't even use?

Re:GNOME Survey (2)

aix tom (902140) | more than 2 years ago | (#37752250)

Because any other project might actually be interested in why people DON'T use it, so that they can find out what the biggest mistakes are.

But since it's GNOME they all have they head stuck up the "We do it the right way, anyone not agreeing with our way must be wrong" place, which again shows in the survey.

Re:GNOME Survey (3, Interesting)

think_nix (1467471) | more than 2 years ago | (#37751322)

I really hope the input from the phoronix survey gets forwarded to the GNOME devs. Especially the comment field. I am also excited to see the results as a whole. How many are really still holding onto their 2.x installs like myself? Using GNOME for about 10 years now and am looking for a decent replacement for 2.32 (or until gentoo gets rid of 2.x)

I don't want to put all the GNOME devs in one basket but after what they pulled with the 3 release , I refuse to use it. It just appears they they keep getting more and more out of touch. After reading things like this [slashdot.org] and for laughs this one [slashdot.org] too.

Re:GNOME Survey (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37751508)

I really hope the input from the phoronix survey gets forwarded to the GNOME devs. Especially the comment field. I am also excited to see the results as a whole. How many are really still holding onto their 2.x installs like myself? Using GNOME for about 10 years now and am looking for a decent replacement for 2.32 (or until gentoo gets rid of 2.x)

I don't want to put all the GNOME devs in one basket but after what they pulled with the 3 release , I refuse to use it. It just appears they they keep getting more and more out of touch. After reading things like this [slashdot.org] and for laughs this one [slashdot.org] too.

Unfortunately, a lot of the comments are "GNOME 3 suxx0rz". Ive tried to be a bit more precise in telling them why both their UI and their attitude towards end users is terrible.

Re:GNOME Survey (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37751718)

I really hope the input from the phoronix survey gets forwarded to the GNOME devs. Especially the comment field. I am also excited to see the results as a whole. How many are really still holding onto their 2.x installs like myself? Using GNOME for about 10 years now and am looking for a decent replacement for 2.32 (or until gentoo gets rid of 2.x)

I don't want to put all the GNOME devs in one basket but after what they pulled with the 3 release , I refuse to use it. It just appears they they keep getting more and more out of touch. After reading things like this [slashdot.org] and for laughs this one [slashdot.org] too.

GNOME devs don't give a shit what users think.
They are the Wall Street Guys of the computing world, my way or the highway.
The troublesome part is that all the major non commercial distros (including my beloved Debian) have basically kneeled down and kissed the asses of the Gnome devs and continue pushing that failed desktop metaphor upon us. I wished the powers that be in the Debian project had the balls that Volkerding had in throwing away the Gnome evironment from Slackware.

Re:GNOME Survey (2)

Grishnakh (216268) | more than 2 years ago | (#37752348)

Exactly right. I'd like to see more distros work harder on integrating KDE, as it's the only full-featured DE left that still uses the traditional desktop UI. Basically, if you want a full-featured DE these days, your options are KDE, or Windows 7 of all things. Plus, unlike Gnome which shuns configurability because it's "too confusing", KDE has it in spades. 10+ years ago, Linux software was all about being configurable and modifiable to your heart's content, but now it's basically a cheap copy of Apple's locked-down, hacker-unfriendly stuff. I feel like I'm living in a weird parallel universe.

Re:GNOME Survey (1)

Vegar (1181915) | more than 2 years ago | (#37751878)

How many are really still holding onto their 2.x installs like myself? Using GNOME for about 10 years now and am looking for a decent replacement for 2.32 (or until gentoo gets rid of 2.x)

I recently switched to Xfce 4.8, and I find it being a good GNOME 2.x replacement (if you change the very odd panel layout to something more gnome-like). If you cherry-pick some of the (better?) GNOME applications to go along with you for the update, it'll make the transition even easier (like gedit, gnome-screensaver and possibly nautilus).

Re:GNOME Survey (3, Insightful)

HermMunster (972336) | more than 2 years ago | (#37751490)

Gnome 3 is as much the stupidification of the Linux desktop as Metro is to Win8. It always happens when you let the developers make decisions rather than letting consumers have the choice.

What they need is gnome 3 with the gnome 2 interface.

Re:GNOME Survey (4, Insightful)

Toonol (1057698) | more than 2 years ago | (#37751554)

However, in Win8 you can just clickthrough to the full, standard windows desktop, so at least they haven't removed the option. Gnome seems to eagerly remove options.

Re:GNOME Survey (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37751724)

However, in Win8 you can just clickthrough to the full, standard windows desktop, so at least they haven't removed the option. Gnome seems to eagerly remove options.

So what you're saying is that they're not so much following a design ethos of Microsoft as Apple (e.g. we are giving you what you want, you just don't know it yet)?

Re:GNOME Survey (1)

Grishnakh (216268) | more than 2 years ago | (#37752396)

Exactly. Microsoft is much smarter than the Gnome devs: they know that a lot of users would be severely pissed off if they were stuck with the crappy Metro interface, especially corporate users who typically shun change. But, they also don't want to look too stodgy compared to Apple, since all the 20-something Facebook users seem to love locked-down appliance-like computers that have very little configurability or versatility, so MS's answer was simple: give the users both options.

Gnome's approach is to try to force everyone to use the Facebook and touchscreen-oriented interface, and if they don't like it, too bad.

Re:GNOME Survey (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37752450)

I'm using Gnome 3 in fallback mode, which is barely different from Gnome 2. I'd call that an option.

Re:GNOME Survey (1)

M1FCJ (586251) | more than 2 years ago | (#37751740)

Customers (we Linux users) are making the choices by installing other desktop environments. Unfortunately Ubuntu is not making it easy with forcing us to live with with a massive bug called Unity. Now Mint goes with Gnome 3 which takes out of my list. At the moment [K/X/L]ubuntu appears to be the best choices.

Mint's KDE distribution is always the less-loved-sibling, late releases and poor(er) support. I'm not going to install an other SuSE product ever again as long as they're cooperating with Microsoft (no one said the decisions must be based on pure logic, I am no Vulcan - SuSE used to be one of the best KDE distributions out there, it sued to be close to perfection). I do not see the benefit of Arch or Gentoo or any other fringe distribution at the moment. If I am forced that way I would rather go back to my old love Slackware. And finally I refuse to be a beta tester for RedHat and use Fedora.

Any other suggestions are welcome.

Re:GNOME Survey (1)

Grishnakh (216268) | more than 2 years ago | (#37752444)

I used to use SuSE too, but it was never that great. It's an RPM-based distro, and as such I always had problems with dependencies, updates were slow as hell, installing software was a PITA (I frequently had to compile my own from downloaded sources), etc. Kubuntu was a welcome change from all that; any time I want to install some obscure program, I just type "sudo apt-get install program" and it's done. I never had that on SuSE. I've heard they're better about this these days (I switched in the early 10.0 days), but after suffering with RPM hell for so long, I don't want to go back until they base their distro on Debian.

Re:GNOME Survey (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37751646)

A GNOME Survey? Please let there be a CowboyNeal option!

"CowboyNeal tends my garden, you insensitive clod," FTW!

Fallback is ridiculous (1)

stooo (2202012) | more than 2 years ago | (#37752342)

Gnome 3 fallback mode is ridiculously incomplete !
A lot of users will switch when this mode is improved to the level of gnome 2

I have a lawn GNOME (0)

chrisj_0 (825246) | more than 2 years ago | (#37751096)

does that count?

Re:I have a lawn GNOME (1)

wonkavader (605434) | more than 2 years ago | (#37751894)

It does not. We're talking about Lawn Gnome 3, here.

Re:I have a lawn GNOME (1)

aix tom (902140) | more than 2 years ago | (#37752452)

Well, a lawn gnome works basically just as well on a desk top as Gnome 3 (gets in the way when you put it on there, and annoys the heck out of, and everybody seeing it goes "what the hell is that"), so yeah, I would say it counts.

Mint- How many slashdotters out here use it? (2, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37751178)

I understand Mint has a rather loyal (and loud) user base. I gave it a try, but wasn't very impressed. My experience was pretty much a buggier, less supported version of ubuntu. Mint seems to be tailored for a very specific environment and group of users, and falls apart quickly if you go off the rails just a little.

I would not be surprised if it's popularity picks up, however, because there are lot of users that don't like unity. I don't like unity either, but I like a lot of the other subtle-yet-important tweaks and tools Ubuntu delivers that makes using linux a whole lot less painful. Ubuntu is the only distro I've ever used that makes setting up vpn and wireless internet connections remotely easy.

That said, I've been using ubuntu with xfce4 (nope, not xubuntu) instead of the unity wm. Crisp, clean, fast, simplicity with all the powerful apps a click away if I want them.

Re:Mint- How many slashdotters out here use it? (1)

XanC (644172) | more than 2 years ago | (#37751236)

What's the reason to not use Debian?

Re:Mint- How many slashdotters out here use it? (1, Insightful)

David Gerard (12369) | more than 2 years ago | (#37751436)

Using Debian remnds you of all the little papercuts that Ubuntu takes care of.

Also, setting up any sort of wifi on Debian feels like having a little RMS on your shoulder lecturing you. Complete with smell.

That said, once Debian is set up it stays set up. Ubuntu (specifically parts of GNOME) is flaky as hell in 11.04.

Re:Mint- How many slashdotters out here use it? (1)

aztracker1 (702135) | more than 2 years ago | (#37751636)

Agreed, setting up Debian for a desktop environment can be challenging.. Ubuntu/Mint take care of a lot of that.. I've been using Mint/XFCE as my preferred Linux VM for about a year now, and actually like it a lot.

Re:Mint- How many slashdotters out here use it? (1)

MrHanky (141717) | more than 2 years ago | (#37752214)

When was that actually true? In 1998? As long as you know about Debian's Free policy and take care to install the firmware packages you need (which is easy), it's far easier than Ubuntu for the simple fact that it's much easier to avoid PulseAudio.

Re:Mint- How many slashdotters out here use it? (1)

hedwards (940851) | more than 2 years ago | (#37751708)

Which works fine, as long as you're happy with the decisions that Canonical makes, it's a bit like Apple actually, it works fine as long as you don't want to do something that the creator of the software doesn't intend for you to to at which point it becomes a major hassle. At least with Ubuntu, you can ultimately install the packages or remove them.

Re:Mint- How many slashdotters out here use it? (1)

Hatta (162192) | more than 2 years ago | (#37752208)

Using Debian remnds you of all the little papercuts that Ubuntu takes care of.

Using Ubuntu reminds you of all the doors they plastered over.

Also, setting up any sort of wifi on Debian feels like having a little RMS on your shoulder lecturing you

Have you tried wicd?

Re:Mint- How many slashdotters out here use it? (1)

Gordonjcp (186804) | more than 2 years ago | (#37752474)

Have you tried wicd?

I have, about a year ago. Round about the last time it was updated. It used to be fairly decent, but now it no longer even compiles.

Re:Mint- How many slashdotters out here use it? (1)

Lumpy (12016) | more than 2 years ago | (#37752340)

Yup, last usable Ubuntu was 10.04.. It's a rerun of 2002 when redhat was king and overnight screwed linux desktop adoption in one fell swoop. Ubuntu is doing the same, all the inroads and advances are being thrown away to stroke someone's ego.

Re:Mint- How many slashdotters out here use it? (1)

john57 (988099) | more than 2 years ago | (#37751678)

I started to use Linux since the days of Red Hat 5.0. I currently use Mint LXDE edition. It feels light (I am looking at you, KDE), has sane desktop layout (don't get me start on Unity).

As for "hardcore" distributions like Gentoo - I really have something better to do with my time than setting up system from the scratch / recompiling stuff. And if I use pre-compiled packages, what is the point of using Gentoo at all?

Re:Mint- How many slashdotters out here use it? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37751690)

Mint seems to be tailored for a very specific environment and group of users

Yes. Jew haters.

Re:Mint- How many slashdotters out here use it? (4, Insightful)

Dracos (107777) | more than 2 years ago | (#37752526)

I use Mint KDE because GNOME is

  • Chasing a userbase that doesn't exist (computer illiterates not on Windows), thereby making actual users suffer
  • Infecting itself with a disease called Mono

I like Mint. It's easy to install and I can do what I want to the desktop. As long as there is a KDE version of Mint I'll keep using it. If there isn't, I'll go looking for another distro where KDE is used (it won't be Kubuntu).

I used to be a GNOME user back in my RedHat/Gentoo days, along With E.16. E.17 is teh seksi, but I haven't tried it yet.

So.... (1)

dptinfo (1934030) | more than 2 years ago | (#37751196)

Next year will be the year of the Gnome 3 desktop?

Silly (1)

killmenow (184444) | more than 2 years ago | (#37751198)

I don't have anything worthwhile to say, I just thought GNOME should use codenames for each release and release 3 in partiluclar should be GNOME 3: Profit!

Re:Silly (1)

keitosama (990483) | more than 2 years ago | (#37751354)

Although in reality it's more like GNOME 3: ???

Re:Silly (1)

SausageOfDoom (930370) | more than 2 years ago | (#37751804)

The underpants gnomes stare at you in disgust.

Desktops (2)

Nerdfest (867930) | more than 2 years ago | (#37751258)

I spent my computer time on the weekend away from the current 'normal' Xfce desktop and tried out Gnome 3 and Unity in a more serious. way. I found I could actually live with either of them. I've said before that the big missing feature is configurability, but they're both much better than before, and have the majority of panel widgets that I like. It ended up that I prefer how Gnome 3 works, and it's responsiveness. The big thing missing from it is the integration with mail and chat that Unity has, specifically for Thunderbird and Pidgin. Gnome 3 has no mail notification on the panel that I could find, which is an important feature. It seems to be a little to tightly tied to Evolution. I discovered that I could live with Unity, although it's quite difficult to configure window themes, etc (as opposed to panel themes). I'll figure it out, it's just that that wasn't my primary goal. I do find its actual keyboard response quite slow, and I'll probably remove the integration with the global menu. I'll probably try sticking with it another month or so at least. I think both Unity and Gnome 3 are both quite usable, and deserve a more serious look ... and this coming from someone who switched to Xfce.

Re:Desktops (1)

horza (87255) | more than 2 years ago | (#37751366)

I have to admit Unity looks pretty good. Reminds me of RiscOS in the way you can drag files onto the task bar, items on the task bar actually do something (eg showing how many emails unread), and you can right-click and get context-sensitive actions. Under KDE the items on the task bar are as useless as under Microsoft Windows.

Phillip.

Re:Desktops (3, Funny)

Anomalyst (742352) | more than 2 years ago | (#37751602)

Reminds me of RiscOS

Is that the one where you attack Kamchatka from Irkutsk to get a directory listing?

Re:Desktops (1)

Gordonjcp (186804) | more than 2 years ago | (#37752520)

After getting rid of the silly menubar-at-the-top thing (one of the biggest misfeatures of Mac OS that makes it so hard to use) and putting the window buttons back where they're supposed to be, I found Unity to be quite good.

Gnome 3 is unusable unless you've got a keyboard with a Windows key (so that's my IBM Model M out, then), and it has seemingly been deliberately designed to be impossible for left-handed people to use effectively. If I'm doing graphics work, I don't want to have to keep taking my hand off the mouse to switch windows.

Re:Desktops (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37751572)

The chat-integration actually works really well with Empathy and GNOME 3, at least in 3.2 in Fedora 16 beta. My one gripe is you still need to hold Alt to find the shutdown button.

Re:Desktops (1)

Nerdfest (867930) | more than 2 years ago | (#37751628)

There's a fix for that shutdown button issue (or rather a tweak). I use Pidgin as a chat client, not Empathy, and I really think it should be more decoupled so that any reasonable mail or chat client can be integrated properly.

Re:Desktops (1)

hedwards (940851) | more than 2 years ago | (#37751742)

The problem with Unity is that even if they do get it to work properly, they managed to chase off people by introducing an obviously alpha menu bar that doesn't scale well to large displays, with the threat of dropping the alternatives with a future release.

They probably will/have gotten it to work properly, but at this point it's pretty hard to justify using a distro that can't even be arsed to allow logins with a wireless keyboard.

The Answer to Ubuntu/Unity and Mint/Gnome 3 (3, Informative)

cyberkahn (398201) | more than 2 years ago | (#37751280)

Is Arch Linux [archlinux.org] . After using Ubuntu for a long time they have really forced me to leave with their decision to force a Fisher Price desktop on me.

Re:The Answer to Ubuntu/Unity and Mint/Gnome 3 (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37751344)

Arch runs Gnome 3 just fine, and Ubuntu can run others too (KDE, Xfce, etc). I don't see what the choice of desktop environment has to do with picking a distro. If you can install Arch, presumably you could also install the KDE / whatever package on Ubuntu.

Re:The Answer to Ubuntu/Unity and Mint/Gnome 3 (2)

cyberkahn (398201) | more than 2 years ago | (#37751374)

Because the default desktop environment is what the distribution will tend to fine tune/focus on. I have installed other desktop environments on Ubuntu only to find annoying issues that were probably overlooked because the focus was not on that environment.

Re:The Answer to Ubuntu/Unity and Mint/Gnome 3 (1)

Improv (2467) | more than 2 years ago | (#37751622)

This is an important point and I'm glad to see someone making it.

Re:The Answer to Ubuntu/Unity and Mint/Gnome 3 (1)

Kagetsuki (1620613) | more than 2 years ago | (#37751658)

I assume you are taking about things like poor integration of the NetworkManager in KDE - and you're correct. If the same thing start to happen where they have a good Unity version and a crummy GNOME version of things it's back to Debian for me.

Re:The Answer to Ubuntu/Unity and Mint/Gnome 3 (3, Insightful)

Bill_the_Engineer (772575) | more than 2 years ago | (#37751406)

I don't see what the choice of desktop environment has to do with picking a distro.

A distro will pick its official desktop and all the programs will be better integrated with that particular desktop. The only real negative that I experienced is some distro (eg. Ubuntu) do a poor job with their packaging of alternative desktops and lead to runtime errors that aren't being experienced by folks who use a distro that supports it better.

Re:The Answer to Ubuntu/Unity and Mint/Gnome 3 (1)

del_diablo (1747634) | more than 2 years ago | (#37751814)

And lets not forget that with some distroes(*cough*Ubuntu*cough*) you also get a case where they freeze over the repos, some application has some bug, and there will never be a patched version in the repos.
Or upgrading every 6th or 12th month is a pain.
On the other hand there is Archlinux: If you can accept running a plain desktop package and you do not need a non-kernel driver, its quite ok.

Re:The Answer to Ubuntu/Unity and Mint/Gnome 3 (1)

Grishnakh (216268) | more than 2 years ago | (#37752516)

And if you want to run any 3D programs, like Tux Racer, then Arch is out if it doesn't support non-kernel drivers as you say, because you need an Nvidia proprietary driver to get 3D support. Nouveau is still way, way behind.

Re:The Answer to Ubuntu/Unity and Mint/Gnome 3 (1)

Noughmad (1044096) | more than 2 years ago | (#37751778)

I like Arch because they don't mess with most of the software. The KDE or GNOME you get from Arch is really as its developers want it to be. Ubuntu and many other distros, on the other hand, have all sorts of specific modification that don't always work, and tend to break when there are changes upstream in the same area.

Also, you get important fixes and improvements very fast, sometimes even the same day they are released. With Ubuntu, you are about a year behind most of the time.

Decouple GUI from OS (3, Interesting)

vlm (69642) | more than 2 years ago | (#37751408)

Why does every distro but Debian have this weird hangup where the GUI cannot be decoupled from the OS?
Or rephrased, why does Debian apparently find it easy to do, whereas the big corporate OSes just can't handle it?

(I use Debian w/ xfce and on a netbook with a dead mouse pad, ratpoison)

Does anyone expect this trend to accelerate, perhaps the next Ubuntu will only ship with emacs and if you want to edit with vi, well then you'll just have to install Arch which will only have vi and no emacs? Maybe this game will become popular with languages and if you want Python you'll only be able to select from certain distros?

Re:Decouple GUI from OS (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37751518)

Does anyone expect this trend to accelerate, perhaps the next Ubuntu will only ship with emacs and if you want to edit with vi, well then you'll just have to install Arch which will only have vi and no emacs?

Slow down there with that 'emacs'. The fischer price equivalent is 'pico' and it's already installed by default on Ubuntu.

Re:Decouple GUI from OS (1)

M1FCJ (586251) | more than 2 years ago | (#37751858)

I must be showing my age but it's obvious that you've never used pine... Pico was just the editor bit of the pine. Ubuntu's version is actually not pico but nano, which is a clone of pico. Pico & Pine were open source with a nonGPL/BSD licence and eventually got replaced with (surprise surprise!) open-source alpine.

Re:Decouple GUI from OS (1)

teslar (706653) | more than 2 years ago | (#37751606)

I have no idea where you get the idea from that these distros have a hang-up about GUI and OS not being decoupled - you clearly don't know what you're talking about.

Ubuntu/Lubuntu/Kubuntu/Xubuntu only differ in the choice of GUI. And if you don't care for Unity, Gnome 3 is trivially installed. (Which, I presume, is how Mint (an Ubuntu derivative) is doing it in the first place). If you favour an esoteric GUI, that is easily installed too; this is still a debian derivative!

So you really seem to be complaining that these distros ship have a preferred a default choice. Which, frankly, is just a bizarre thing to complain about.

Re:Decouple GUI from OS (1)

lahvak (69490) | more than 2 years ago | (#37752546)

Ubuntu offers a fixed set of choices, none of them satisfactory for me. It is not that hard in Ubuntu, or Mint, to do things your own way, but it is definitely easier to do that in pure Debian. Trying to use for example fvwm2 and slim in OpenSUSE is total exercise in frustration, I tried that for about a year, and ended up running screaming back to Debian. You are correct saying that it is possible to use any wm and dm in most current desktop distros, but the GP is definitely correct stating that it is much easier in for example Debian than in the most of the other "mainstream" distros.

Re:Decouple GUI from OS (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37751638)

That's not true at all. Plenty of distributions ship with agnostic views on desktop environments. Arch, Fedora, Slackware, Ubuntu (server or Alt), all come readily to mind. It's just that most people don't bother switching desktops post install so most distributions focus on one environment or release separate editions. For example Kubuntu, Lubuntu, Xubuntu....

Re:Decouple GUI from OS (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37751874)

Slackware: KDE, Xfce, Fluxbox, Blackbox, Window Maker, fvwm2 Fvwm, twm

Re:Decouple GUI from OS (1)

laffer1 (701823) | more than 2 years ago | (#37751932)

It's simple, man power. The sheer number of dependancies that Gnome and KDE require alone is mind blowing. Someone has to package all those things up. It's not one big Gnome package, it's a package for gtk, gnome libs, pango, pkg-config, gstreamer, gdm3, ...

Debian is lucky enough to have a lot of people working on packages. Most projects don't have that kind of support. Some of them are very small and only have a few guys helping out.

As someone working on a BSD project with a similar issue, I can tell you it's a lot of work to keep all this stuff updated. What's worse is that some of these projects aren't as good as others taking upstream patches. Even if you limit it to Linux, there can be issues with combinations of glibc + kernel version + other software installed. Then there's differences between GCC versions.. I could go on.

Re:Decouple GUI from OS (1)

Hatta (162192) | more than 2 years ago | (#37751956)

Because commercial distros are expected to ship with a pretty GUI to appease the marketroids. They have to pick one to go with by default, and that one gets elevated among the rest.
Distros like debian, arch, slackware, etc, which don't install a GUI by default make it much easier to choose your own desktop, but it's more work up front to get to a pretty GUI.

There's nothing stopping you from installing ratpoison on Ubuntu or what have you. Just get rid of [x|k|g]dm, and put ratpoison in your ~/.xinitrc.

Re:Decouple GUI from OS (1)

Zedrick (764028) | more than 2 years ago | (#37752124)

First impression? I want an OS that feels right out of the box. Not very rational, I know - but I'm probably not alone. And since Debian, Unity and Mint are more or less the same under the hood, the (default) GUI is important. Nevermind that I can change it, or that I do all my important work in the shell.

Re:Decouple GUI from OS (1)

kthreadd (1558445) | more than 2 years ago | (#37752224)

Why does every distro but Debian have this weird hangup where the GUI cannot be decoupled from the OS?
Or rephrased, why does Debian apparently find it easy to do, whereas the big corporate OSes just can't handle it?

(I use Debian w/ xfce and on a netbook with a dead mouse pad, ratpoison)

Does anyone expect this trend to accelerate, perhaps the next Ubuntu will only ship with emacs and if you want to edit with vi, well then you'll just have to install Arch which will only have vi and no emacs? Maybe this game will become popular with languages and if you want Python you'll only be able to select from certain distros?

The code is open, so go ahead and install whatever you want. You don't have to restrict yourself to what your distribution ships.

Re:Decouple GUI from OS (2)

Cajun Hell (725246) | more than 2 years ago | (#37752286)

Why does every distro but Debian have this weird hangup where the GUI cannot be decoupled from the OS?

Because many distros have different goals than Debian.

Consider one of the more extreme examples of a Unix coupled with an UI: Mac OS X. In that instance, the UI is practically defined as part of the OS. If you're a techie or otherwise take a reductionist view, you know that's not really how things are (there are various different components, such as the Darwin kernel), yet conflating all the components into something you call an "OS" isn't an error: it's an insight. Or if you don't accept that, then let's call it a decision: you have decided to lump all that stuff together and call it Mac OS X.

That holistic decision, interestingly, is part of what makes Mac OS X popular.

Consider the possibility that want your mom to end up with a computer (let's keep things very high-level, and not think about what's an OS; we're talking about the big picture here, so "computer") where she "never has to edit config files." (If you don't see this as a desirable goal, then you won't be able to continue this thought experiment, sorry.) You're going to add GUI front ends that express the same meaning as the text in the config files (and very likely translates to those config files. Now you're writing GUIs. You might end up saving some time, by deciding to use one toolkit, thus marrying your overall project to one particular overall GUI system.

It's not stupid; it just maybe isn't for you.

Debian doesn't take this view, because "not having to edit config files" isn't one of its goals. That gives it more freedom. Now look at Mint's web page and imagine what its goal are. It's not the same as Debian's.

Re:Decouple GUI from OS (1)

Lumpy (12016) | more than 2 years ago | (#37752372)

HUH?

Slackware dies this perfectly. as well as CentOS.

Re:Decouple GUI from OS (1)

mrsmiggs (1013037) | more than 2 years ago | (#37752518)

The continuous debate we're having over user interface isn't about simply packaging the user interfaces and putting them in repositories as pretty much all the distros allow you to install whatever user interface package you want, it is instead about the average "user" experience of the product. However much we like to laugh and joke about the "Year of Linux desktop" the people who design those Linux desktops are still shooting for the best user experience for the man off the street who isn't going to delve into the repositories and install KDE, Gnome, Unity or whatever. In addition to that the enthusiasts berating Shuttleworth and Ubuntu for moving away from Gnome must have in the back of their mind that Ubuntu could provide significant developer time and user eyeballs (i.e. testing) to Gnome 3 development (or perhaps forking Gnome 2) and that's now all going into Unity.

And who's to say Debian aren't making a statement about this? Last I heard the packages had only just been moved into experimental when every other distro is kicking out full releases with Gnome 3 or Unity as default. I know by the time we get to the next Debian release we'll be talking about Gnome 4 but with the lack of urgency they're clearly showing they either don't care or it's not ready.

Gnome2 + KDE3 (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37751538)

1) Longtime users of Gnome2 and KDE3 who reject the respective current bloat versions should unite!
2) ???
3) Profit!!! (i.e. usable DE)

Re:Gnome2 + KDE3 (2)

mschiltz (2464976) | more than 2 years ago | (#37751860)

are you implying that the previous versions of either WEREN'T bloat? Back when processing power was the main bottleneck in most desktops, KDE and GNOME made the system so slow and over-incumbered that it was just like using Windows, which for me defeated the purpose. Now obviously, times have changed, and speed isn't one of the driving forces behind moving to a linux system, but the GUIs are still too huge. Give me a window manager that boots in about 2 seconds flat (WindowMaker or ICE) any day.

BOOOOOOO!!!! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37751576)

I just switched to Mint because Unity (while very good) is not for me and I don't like Gnome 3.

I guess I'm on to rolling my own with Xfce desktop...

Fuduntu (1)

bryantthesmith (862805) | more than 2 years ago | (#37751654)

I've been using Fuduntu [fuduntu.org] for nearly a year now (Fedora based, roling release distro that has stuck with Gnome 2) and it has worked out well. I don't know how long they can keep away from Gnome 3, but for the time being I'm grateful that they aren't jumping on the unity/Gnome 3 bandwagon.

Re:Fuduntu (2)

pmontra (738736) | more than 2 years ago | (#37752140)

It's only a matter of time but eventually Gnome 2 won't work anymore with new versions of libraries and Xservers. The only chance it has is somebody forking it and maintaining it but it's going to be a boring project, something you do only if they pay you. I say so even if I'd like to keep this Gnome 2 desktop I'm using right now unchanged for at least the next 10 years.

Too little too late? (1)

houghi (78078) | more than 2 years ago | (#37751886)

Linux and now ESR are both moving away from GNOME3 (and KDE) and go to XFCE. ESR says XFCE looks like where Iâ(TM)m landing. [ibiblio.org]

Many people resent the way both KDE and GNOME are not about functionality anymore, but about "because I can".

The fact that the GNOME community need to do their own survey shows, to me at least, how high the Ivory Tower is that the developers live on.

Survey (1)

CFBMoo1 (157453) | more than 2 years ago | (#37751926)

I'm not happy with 3.x and I made sure to point out that I found the 2.x Gnome to be my favored environment.

Re:Survey (1)

h4rr4r (612664) | more than 2 years ago | (#37751988)

I did as well. Focus follows mouse is a must, neither Gnome3 nor unity allow for that. This means Gnome3 and Unity are broken.

Re:Survey (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37752082)

I did as well. Focus follows mouse is a must, neither Gnome3 nor unity allow for that. This means Gnome3 and Unity are broken.

Silence you stupid linux user you make to much sense, you will accept the windows/apple way of doing things.
This has to be the Gnome motto. For pete's sake, if they like the whole apple/microsoft thingy go work for them and inflict your stupid decisions upon the unwashed masses.
Like the windows users would care at all.

I hope it is better than unity (1)

Brad1138 (590148) | more than 2 years ago | (#37752016)

I just switched to Mint from Ubuntu to get away from Unity. I had been a loyal Ubuntu user since 6.06. I hope Gnome 3 isn't forced on Mint users, or that it doesn't suck like Unity. If so, next is Xubuntu.

Thanks, Mint (1)

ThatsNotPudding (1045640) | more than 2 years ago | (#37752062)

I was trying to decide what to replace my Ubuntu with (now that they have fully lost their MonoMac-lovin' mind). Now I know: Debian!

Xubuntu (1)

DoctorBit (891714) | more than 2 years ago | (#37752172)

I've been using Xubuntu for several days now and I love it. Before installing Xubuntu I tried Ubuntu/Unity (again) and hated it (again) - although not as much as 11.04 Unity six months ago (after a few weeks I switched to the "classic" desktop). Xubuntu looks and acts just like Gnome 2.x as far as I can tell. There was just one thing I had to tweak: to get windows network browsing working, I had to replace the default Thunar file manager with Nautilus. It's important with this to put "nautilus --no-desktop" as the command in the launcher: the "--no-desktop" option prevents Nautilus from doing strange things to the desktop. As far as I can tell, everything is working exactly the same, or better, than it worked in Ubuntu 11.04 classic desktop.

I've got a Sandy Bridge chip, and I love the 64-bit Sandy Bridge support in 11.10 Xubuntu - it works great, not a single glitch in 3d games or any video glitches at all. Google Earth zips along using maybe 30% of CPU, and I can watch a 1080p video with only a few percent of CPU used. I'm definitely a convert to Xubuntu for the next six months.

Oh noes! They changed Facebook...er Gnome! (2)

crazybilly (947714) | more than 2 years ago | (#37752560)

The hatred for all things new in the FLOSS community never ceases to surprise me. When they change Facebook, all my nontech friends all winge for days about it.

You'd think it'd be different around here, but it's not.

I can't speak to how well Gnome 3 works on typical large-screen multi-monitor setup, but my home laptop with a 14" screen, it works exactly the way I've always wished Gnome would. It's well put together, well designed and while there aren't a lot of native config tools for it yet (3.2 aside--haven't tried it), I'm sure that's all in the works (and if it's not, people/distros will create them).

the idea of Mint's polish on top of Gnome 3 sounds just about perfect to me--exactly the desktop I'd like to use.

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