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Apache Harmony Moves To Apache Attic

Soulskill posted more than 2 years ago | from the giving-up-the-ghost dept.

Java 120

think_nix writes "After the resignation of Apache from the Java SE/EE Executive Committee, the time has now come for Harmony to be added to the Apache Attic. Harmony was 'the project to produce an open source cleanroom implementation of Java.' An open vote was taken within the Project Management Committee, which resulted in a 20-2 majority to discontinue development."

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yay! (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37950698)

Yay! Die java! Die! Send those java scripters back to the fry cook station!

Re:yay! (0)

greghodg (1453715) | more than 2 years ago | (#37950786)

That's German for "The Java! The!"

Re:yay! (0, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37950832)

And Albanian for "Yay! Sun Java! Sun!"

Re:yay! (0, Offtopic)

Chris Mattern (191822) | more than 2 years ago | (#37950940)

Albanians only use JDK!

Re:yay! (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37950808)

Now look here. Cooking fries is not as easy a you think. You have to consider the heat of the oil, the temperature of the freezer in which the potatoes are kept, the moisture content of the potatoes, the air humidity, the influence of the age and condition of the fryer, etc. There are many, many variables, that influence the resulting product and an expert fry cook can manage to properly account for all of these factors and thus produce perfectly golden, perfectly moist, perfectly crunchy, deeply satisfying, and comforting fries every time.

Now Java programmers on the other hand... well let's just say I'd rather have an expertly fried bag of potatoes than software written in Java any day.

Re:yay! (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37950880)

Oh yeah. They'd probably burn themselves without their mittens on as well. Maybe they'd be better as jizz moppers?

It lives on (1, Flamebait)

ttong (2459466) | more than 2 years ago | (#37950774)

It lives on in the form of Android, more specifically the java. parts of the Dalvik core library.

Re:It lives on (1)

shutdown -p now (807394) | more than 2 years ago | (#37952704)

Those are much smaller than full J2SE, however, which is what Harmony aimed to be.

Thanks Google (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37953112)

Thank you Google. There could have been a fully compatible Java implementation with a compatible and permissive license but no, you saw just the Apache license and so you took it, forked it and released it as your own incompatible Java, ruining it for everyone. And you're supposed to be the good guys?

Harmony what now? (0)

meustrus (1588597) | more than 2 years ago | (#37950806)

It is a tragic day. First I find out that someone was working on an open implementation of Java, then I find out that it's cancelled? Oh well. Here's to hoping that the universities speed up the inevitable transition to Python so we can see the glut of Java programmers disappear.

Re:Harmony what now? (5, Informative)

sitkill (893183) | more than 2 years ago | (#37950872)

uh, not sure if you even read the original article but..

There IS an open implementation of java, the openJDK [java.net] , which is why this is being shut down (IBM who was the main contributor to Harmony has moved it's resources to openJDK).

But I guess it's more in line with slashdots javahate if we ignore those facts.

Re:Harmony what now? (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37950894)

Hey look! A butthurt java weenie. Did you remember to bring your mittens and helmet to work today?

Re:Harmony what now? (4, Funny)

sitkill (893183) | more than 2 years ago | (#37950904)

lol, well I did actually bring my helmet and my gloves to work since I bike...

WAIT A MINUTE IS THIS MY BOSS!?

Re:Harmony what now? (-1, Offtopic)

meustrus (1588597) | more than 2 years ago | (#37950952)

You're right, I didn't RTFA. It would seem, however, that what you just pointed out is the only detail I missed.

Anyway, I wasn't aware there was "javahate" on Slashdot. I've mainly heard Java fanaticism from certain peers and I'm sick of it. Unlike most of them, I already knew about object-oriented programming before learning Java. I'm convinced that even Ruby has a better object model. And in direct opposition to Slashdot's far more prevalent Microsoft-hate, I will say every grievance I have with Java is solved in C#.

Re:Harmony what now? (4, Insightful)

sa666_666 (924613) | more than 2 years ago | (#37951038)

Except cross-platform compatibility, and not being controlled by a proprietary vendor.

Re:Harmony what now? (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37951058)

Both of which aren't a problem with .NET, so all is well.

Re:Harmony what now? (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37951126)

I hope you are joking, .net does not have any form of up to date independent implementation, the Microsoft one is cross platform (win+Mack) but mono is subtly different, lags significantly behind, and comes with an noticeably incomplete patent licence which only covers a subset of its's features.

Re:Harmony what now? (2)

Zephiris (788562) | more than 2 years ago | (#37953082)

There is definitely no Microsoft version of .NET for Mac.

Re:Harmony what now? (1)

spongman (182339) | more than 2 years ago | (#37955544)

There is definitely no Microsoft version of .NET for Mac.

except the one in silverlight.

Re:Harmony what now? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37951068)

Like Oracle?

Re:Harmony what now? (1)

gl4ss (559668) | more than 2 years ago | (#37951158)

Like Oracle?

tell that to google and openjdk.. besides, oracle seems to be way better than sun for holding it.
really, sun fucked up mobile java domination pretty badly. they were supposed to do a thing like android but never got around to actually do it.. committees don't get around to doing fucking anything since any way you choose to do things someone has a valid point why some other way would be 'better', especially when you have contradicting goals.

and uh, as it happens, crazily enough, virtualbox and openoffice get regular running from me and java pays the bills.

never heard of anyone actually using harmony though so no big loss there.

Re:Harmony what now? (1)

meustrus (1588597) | more than 2 years ago | (#37951118)

What about Mono?

Re:Harmony what now? (1)

_Shad0w_ (127912) | more than 2 years ago | (#37956556)

It lags significantly behind Microsoft's .NET framework. Only fairly basic programs will compile on both Microsoft's version of the framework and on Mono without modifications. A moderately complex Windows Forms application...won't.

The tendency for people to forget there's an entire section of the Framework that isn't about ASP.NET doesn't seem to be unique to Mono though.

Re:Harmony what now? (1)

m50d (797211) | more than 2 years ago | (#37951466)

Java is controlled by Oracle. As per the actual story, Apache tried to make their own JVM, Oracle said no, so Apache can't make their own JVM. (And as for cross-platform, in either case you're subject to the whims of the vendor. .net on freebsd is better than java on freebsd)

Re:Harmony what now? (1)

rve (4436) | more than 2 years ago | (#37952222)

Apache tried to make their own JVM, Oracle said no, so Apache can't make their own JVM.

No, it's not about the JVM. There are many JVM implementations, some open, some proprietary. It's a JDK, including the Java SE API.

Re:Harmony what now? (2)

h4rr4r (612664) | more than 2 years ago | (#37951356)

So C# magically gets you around the patent minefield?

How does that work?

Re:Harmony what now? (1)

HarrySquatter (1698416) | more than 2 years ago | (#37951494)

That's funny because there have been all of 0 lawsuits over mono but there is a pretty high-profile lawsuit from oracle over java patents. But let's ignore all that since it doesn't jive with anti-mono FUD.

Re:Harmony what now? (2)

binarylarry (1338699) | more than 2 years ago | (#37954320)

That's because no one has been remotely successful with Mono.

If Android was built using parts of Mono instead of Apache Harmony, all the handset makers would be sued by Microsoft on two fronts.

Re:Harmony what now? (2)

_Shad0w_ (127912) | more than 2 years ago | (#37956564)

I believe it's also because Mono was largely developed by Novell, who had a licensing agreement with Microsoft. I think Microsoft also saw Mono as a way of proliferating support for Silverlight outside of the Windows platform, so were fairly accepting of it anyway. Although Silverlight seem to be fairly dead - I don't think I've really sites outside of Microsoft's using it and even they seem to have stopped.

Re:Harmony what now? (1)

SharkLaser (2495316) | more than 2 years ago | (#37951534)

How many C# lawsuits there have been? How many Java lawsuits, especially relating to total ignorance from Google, has there been? Yep.

Re:Harmony what now? (1)

bberens (965711) | more than 2 years ago | (#37952100)

I don't feel it's a stretch to suggest that if Dalvik had used the C# language instead of the Java language that there would have been lawsuits related to C#/.NET. But yes, your point is not lost on me.

Re:Harmony what now? (1)

shutdown -p now (807394) | more than 2 years ago | (#37952736)

The patents that Oracle used against Google are VM-specific, not language-specific.

However, there have been claims that those patents also apply to .NET. If so, Google using Mono would still let Oracle sue them.

Re:Harmony what now? (1)

Gazzonyx (982402) | more than 2 years ago | (#37952996)

That makes sense as the .NET CLR is basically what Microsoft went to after the licensing issues with J#. As I understand it, the CLR and JVM are very similar virtual machines.

Re:Harmony what now? (1)

shutdown -p now (807394) | more than 2 years ago | (#37953302)

They aren't actually all that similar. Well, I guess they are in that both are stack machines, and they use a fairly similar object model - but many opcodes are different, metadata is completely different, and, of course, the implementation is very different.

So far as I know, the problem is that Sun/Oracle has patents on some very generic things. For example, they have a patent that effectively covers any JIT compiler from bytecode to native code - which they've used against Dalvik. Some are more specific - e.g. they describe the way Java .class files are laid out, and apparently Dalvik .dex files are similar enough that they infringe on that patent. It's pretty hard to sidestep a patent on JIT if you want an efficient VM, though.

Re:Harmony what now? (0)

the linux geek (799780) | more than 2 years ago | (#37951944)

C# is an open standard, as is part of the .NET standard library.

Re:Harmony what now? (1)

h4rr4r (612664) | more than 2 years ago | (#37952444)

Which means nothing as far as getting sued over patents goes.

If Dalvik had tried to use the C# namespace and been closer to it then Google would be just as sued.

Re:Harmony what now? (1)

shutdown -p now (807394) | more than 2 years ago | (#37952794)

It doesn't mean anything with respect to patents as such. However, Ecma-334 (C#) and Ecma-335 (CLR) are covered [microsoft.com] by Microsoft community promise [microsoft.com] , which is basically a patent disclamer for implementers with a "patent MAD" clause:

"Microsoft irrevocably promises not to assert any Microsoft Necessary Claims against you for making, using, selling, offering for sale, importing or distributing any implementation, to the extent it conforms to one of the Covered Specifications, and is compliant with all of the required parts of the mandatory provisions of that specification ("Covered Implementation"), subject to the following:

This is a personal promise directly from Microsoft to you, and you acknowledge as a condition of benefiting from it that no Microsoft rights are received from suppliers, distributors, or otherwise in connection with this promise. If you file, maintain, or voluntarily participate in a patent infringement lawsuit against a Microsoft implementation of any Covered Specification, then this personal promise does not apply with respect to any Covered Implementation made or used by you. To clarify, "Microsoft Necessary Claims" are those claims of Microsoft-owned or Microsoft-controlled patents that are necessary to implement the required portions (which also include the required elements of optional portions) of the Covered Specification that are described in detail and not those merely referenced in the Covered Specification."

Re:Harmony what now? (1)

h4rr4r (612664) | more than 2 years ago | (#37952984)

It does not protect against any patents of the from "Doing X, but on a mobile device!". Which is what much of the java suits are about.

Re:Harmony what now? (1)

shutdown -p now (807394) | more than 2 years ago | (#37953282)

Java patents are not mobile-device-specific. It's just that Sun made a similar patent grant where they promised to not sue implementers of their specs, but specifically excluded mobile from that grant. This is not the case for Microsoft community promise.

Re:Harmony what now? (1)

peppepz (1311345) | more than 2 years ago | (#37952562)

To be more precise: C# 2.0 is an open standard. C# 3.0 and 4.0 are proprietary.

All versions of .NET are proprietary. A subset of .NET 2.0 is an open standard. .NET 3.0, 3.5 and 4.0 are proprietary.

Re:Harmony what now? (1)

kdemetter (965669) | more than 2 years ago | (#37951500)

That's funny since every grievance i ever had with C# was solved with Java :-)
Though i prefer groovy.

Re:Harmony what now? (1)

spongman (182339) | more than 2 years ago | (#37955588)

That's funny since every grievance i ever had with C# was solved with Java

just curious. which grievances were those?

Re:Harmony what now? (1)

datavirtue (1104259) | more than 2 years ago | (#37951776)

There is nothing wrong with Java. It is all in your head.

Re:Harmony what now? (1)

bberens (965711) | more than 2 years ago | (#37952286)

Java has two primary things wrong with it.. The first is that it SUCKS at making local GUI apps. The second is that the first versions were painfully slow and left such a horrible taste in some peoples' mouth that they will never recover. The latter issue has largely been resolved with VM improvements and hardware. The other.. well write your GUIs in C#.

Re:Harmony what now? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37955994)

Local GUI apps! How quaint.

Unless you're on the Firefox or Chrome development teams, there's no reason to write a local GUI app.

Re:Harmony what now? (1)

funfail (970288) | more than 2 years ago | (#37956374)

So the only GUI application installed on your computer is Firefox or Chrome, am I right?

Re:Harmony what now? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37951002)

uh, not sure if you even read the original article but..

There IS an open implementation of java, the openJDK [java.net] , which is why this is being shut down (IBM who was the main contributor to Harmony has moved it's resources to openJDK).

openjdk may be "open" but it comes with field of use restrictions, restricting its "openness".

Re:Harmony what now? (3, Insightful)

SiMac (409541) | more than 2 years ago | (#37951096)

I'm talking out of my ass here, but I was under the understanding that OpenJDK (or at least IcedTea [wikipedia.org] ) has the same field of use restrictions as any other Java implementation, which come from Sun's patent licensing, and can't be avoided by building a clean room implementation.

Re:Harmony what now? (1)

peppepz (1311345) | more than 2 years ago | (#37951990)

OpenJDK is released under the GPLv2 and therefore it has no field of use restrictions.

It's the TCK that has a restrictive license, i.e. Oracle wants money if you want to call your implementation of Java with the Java name.

Re:Harmony what now? (1)

shutdown -p now (807394) | more than 2 years ago | (#37952820)

OpenJDK is released under the GPLv2 and therefore it has no field of use restrictions.

How so? Releasing something under GPLv2 does not equate to a patent grant by the original code author, since he cannot, by definition, violate any GPL provisions (as they only apply to someone who would otherwise be in danger of copyright infringement, which is never the original author). So if Sun - and now Oracle - asserts the right to use their patents to slap down anything that uses Java in a mobile context, it would apply equally to OpenJDK.

Re:Harmony what now? (1)

peppepz (1311345) | more than 2 years ago | (#37953458)

OpenJDK is released under the GPLv2 and therefore it has no field of use restrictions.

How so?

Because there is no document by Oracle specifying "field of use" restrictions for OpenJDK. The only license applied to OpenJDK is GPLv2, and GPLv2 does not contain field of use restrictions.

Releasing something under GPLv2 does not equate to a patent grant by the original code author, since he cannot, by definition, violate any GPL provisions (as they only apply to someone who would otherwise be in danger of copyright infringement, which is never the original author).

We were talking about field of use restrictions, not patents. Anyway, GPLv2 does include an implicit patent grant in section 6. In the intentions of the GPL authors, sections 6 and 7 were expressly meant to prevent a patent owner from limiting the redistribution of software he had licensed under the GPL. Whether the specific wording they used is lawyer-proof in every country of the globe or not, I'm not qualified to tell. Stallman believes so; but he used a stronger wording in GPLv3, just in case.

Re:Harmony what now? (1)

shutdown -p now (807394) | more than 2 years ago | (#37953640)

Because there is no document by Oracle specifying "field of use" restrictions for OpenJDK. The only license applied to OpenJDK is GPLv2, and GPLv2 does not contain field of use restrictions.

The document in that case would be the patent(s) that Oracle holds.

We were talking about field of use restrictions, not patents.

Isn't that the same thing, ultimately? I mean, if Oracle says "this is free and open, but if you use it in firmware of your mobile device, we'll sue you over this patent" - isn't that effectively restricting the field of use?

Anyway, GPLv2 does include an implicit patent grant in section 6. In the intentions of the GPL authors, sections 6 and 7 were expressly meant to prevent a patent owner from limiting the redistribution of software he had licensed under the GPL. Whether the specific wording they used is lawyer-proof in every country of the globe or not, I'm not qualified to tell.

Well, the wording is definitely very vague, and it doesn't even explicitly mention patents (hence "implicit"). Apparently, some lawyers think that it's rather limited in scope [swpat.org] .

Interestingly enough, even if Stallman's opinion holds true, it would only apply to implementations derived from OpenJDK - any clean room reimplementation (such as Harmony) would run afoul of the patents, as the grant would not apply to it.

Re:Harmony what now? (1)

peppepz (1311345) | more than 2 years ago | (#37956188)

The document in that case would be the patent(s) that Oracle holds.

Patents don't contain field of use restrictions by themselves, so for now we can't say that OpenJDK contains field of use restrictions.

Isn't that the same thing, ultimately? I mean, if Oracle says "this is free and open, but if you use it in firmware of your mobile device, we'll sue you over this patent" - isn't that effectively restricting the field of use?

Definitely, but this is not happening now. You can speculate that this might happen in the future (as you could do with *any* open source product at this point - Android, WebM, SQLite, Apache...) but in the case of OpenJDK, this would violate the GPLv2.

Well, the wording is definitely very vague, and it doesn't even explicitly mention patents (hence "implicit"). Apparently, some lawyers think that it's rather limited in scope. [swpat.org]

Well, 3 x = 6 means that x = 2 only implicitly, but this doesn't make it less true :) . Above all, no lawyer seem to doubt the fact that the GPLv2 patent grant covers the users of the product itself in the USA, due to the estoppel thing. The doubts are whether the grant covers derived works (thus it's not a problem for OpenJDK itself), or over its validity in countries other than the USA which require an explicit declaration for patent grants (but this has not been proven in court yet).

Interestingly enough, even if Stallman's opinion holds true, it would only apply to implementations derived from OpenJDK - any clean room reimplementation (such as Harmony) would run afoul of the patents, as the grant would not apply to it.

Exactly. This is a problem for other implementations, not for OpenJDK.

Re:Harmony what now? (1)

VGPowerlord (621254) | more than 2 years ago | (#37952492)

As far as I'm aware, it doesn't have field of use restrictions, but it also doesn't include the code for building/running Java Mobile Edition (JavaME) applications.

Re:Harmony what now? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37951446)

It's open, but it's GPL-licensed compared to Harmony's Apache2.0 license.

The main dispute is that Sun/Oracle is not letting anyone create their own version of Java that's not based on OpenJDK. In theory you can get your Java implementation TCK-certified, but it's expensive and Sun/Oracle doesn't seem to even want to provide it for community projects like Harmony. Furthermore, Oracle has been threatening to sue anyone using a non-OpenJDK version of Java.

The code may be open, but the standards are not.

Re:Harmony what now? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37952480)

OpenJDK may be open, but it's a different sort of open. A lot of companies would be happy to base their products on Apache-licensed code but won't even consider GPL'd code. It's not huge, but there is some impact to this project going away.

Re:Harmony what now? (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37950874)

Ugh. Give me Lisp or Clojure any day over shitty Python.

Re:Harmony what now? (1)

siglercm (6059) | more than 2 years ago | (#37953238)

Apparently it's all 1337 now to say Python is sh177y.

Re:Harmony what now? (2)

sourcerror (1718066) | more than 2 years ago | (#37950902)

Universities wouldn't switch for a non-typed language as a main platform. C++/Java will continue to be entreched, with a little C# sprinkled on. Also they don't follow flavor of the month.

By the way they embraced Java before it was opensourced, so I don't think they'll make a boycott about Oracle dicking around with its software patents.

Re:Harmony what now? (1)

meustrus (1588597) | more than 2 years ago | (#37951098)

I only suggested Python because I heard some universities have already started using it for introductory courses. Of course I'm not suggesting it be the primary platform but there has been success in teaching basic programming principles without dealing with Java-specific issues immediately. I would say the progression ought to be:

  1. Python (or any other simple, untyped language)
  2. C++ (so the students can be all "whoa that's way harder")
  3. Lisp (hey wut this language is nothing like the rest)
  4. C# or Java (combined with an OO design course)
  5. branch out to various languages used in practical fields like Bash, Perl, PHP, Javascript, Cobol, Fortran...

Java makes for a really shitty first entry into programming. Its primitive niceties (no not talking about primitive types) can only be appreciated after one has had to deal with C++ shit.

Re:Harmony what now? (1)

93 Escort Wagon (326346) | more than 2 years ago | (#37951148)

Lisp (hey wut this language is nothing like the rest)

LISP?! We already have enough trouble attracting quality CS students - are you trying to drive everyone to becoming Philosophy majors?

Re:Harmony what now? (1)

youn (1516637) | more than 2 years ago | (#37956628)

To be fair, using lisp is a wholly different philosophy :)

Re:Harmony what now? (3, Interesting)

Lulu of the Lotus-Ea (3441) | more than 2 years ago | (#37951512)

Aaaghh!

Python is, of course, a STRONGLY typed language (not untyped). It is also DYNAMICALLY typed rather than STATICALLY. But these issues are orthogonal, and languages exist in every quadrant of the type system grid implied.

Re:Harmony what now? (1)

HarrySquatter (1698416) | more than 2 years ago | (#37951718)

Exactly such as C being weakly, but statically typed.

Re:Harmony what now? (1)

d4fseeker (1896770) | more than 2 years ago | (#37951948)

What about PROLOG instead of LISP? Not quite as abusive of your bracket-keys but equally abusive of your "WTF?" when seeing the results :)

Re:Harmony what now? (1)

sourcerror (1718066) | more than 2 years ago | (#37956588)

In my university we studied Prolog and SML. Now they're changing SML to Erlang. You can also take up Constraint logic programming for 3 credit. (Europe)

Re:Harmony what now? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37952078)

C++ (so the students can be all "whoa that's way harder")

Or if you're not a mouthbreather who needs a language with training wheels and makes sure you have your mittens on you'll think "wow this is a powerful language that doesn't treat me like an idiot me or lock me out of features because someone decided they are "too dangerous for me".

Re:Harmony what now? (1)

sourcerror (1718066) | more than 2 years ago | (#37956590)

I guess you're choosing your programming languages to brag about how 'tuff' you're.

Re:Harmony what now? (1)

vbosch (1552029) | more than 2 years ago | (#37952534)

At my university UPV ( Polytechnic University of Valencia) we studied:

Pascal - 1st year

C with some assembler - 2nd year

Mathematica - 2nd year

Octave- 2nd year

C++ - 3rd year

Java - 4th year

Prolog - 4th year

Lisp - 4th year

Haskell - 5th year (depending on your specialization)

Shell script was just basic as we did most our coding on the Linux distribution favored that year by the sysadmins.

Re:Harmony what now? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37951684)

Python is a toy language that's ridiculously slow and poorly designed, and its main implementation has a primitive reference counting garbage collector and a global interpreter lock. Even Google, its primary supporter, has almost completely abandoned it. Internally they even forbid new projects from using it. Kill yourself.

Re:Harmony what now? (1)

bberens (965711) | more than 2 years ago | (#37952334)

Being a toy language doesn't mean it's bad. I rather enjoy it as such. I have pretty much replaced perl/bash scripts with python. My understanding (perhaps incorrect) was that Redhat had embraced it quite a bit and a lot of the the GUIs for configuration and such (read: not complex GUIs) were written in python.

Re:Harmony what now? (1)

RCL (891376) | more than 2 years ago | (#37952670)

Canonical embraced it to the point that *buntu has python scripts running in background (printer-applet and such). This is perhaps a misuse of an interpreted language.

Re:Harmony what now? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37952992)

Yup, you get a bunch of slow daemons that are using up way more memory than they should be. It gets worse because if they could ever benefit from accessing more than one CPU, they have to spawn a new process instead of a simple thread. In Windows and OS X, almost all of these trivial things are programmed in Assembler, C, C++ or Objective-C and optimized to be very fast and very energy efficient. However, RedHat and Canonical have absolutely no concern for piling on more horribly inefficient scripts.

That's OK. (0)

bmo (77928) | more than 2 years ago | (#37950882)

The "write once run everywhere" model of Java was just a poor imitation of Forth's anyway.

--
BMO

Re:That's OK. (1)

uncle brad (1989490) | more than 2 years ago | (#37951032)

Yeah, that's exactly what it was.

Good (-1, Flamebait)

sproketboy (608031) | more than 2 years ago | (#37950914)

Apache fails again. Good.

Re:Good (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37952458)

Apache fails again. Good.

Good? What did Apache run over your dog or something?

Re:Good (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37956708)

His job got taken by an Indian.

Strange (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37951046)

That when software projects turn into failures, they move to the Attic.

When the people that work on software projects turn into failures, they move into their mothers' basements.

Re:Strange (1)

_Shad0w_ (127912) | more than 2 years ago | (#37956602)

That's not true. I still live in my bedroom.

Also, what do you mean "turn in to"?

OpenJDK? (3, Insightful)

bigsexyjoe (581721) | more than 2 years ago | (#37951088)

I'm not completely up to speed on these issues. But is there anything about OpenJDK that people are unhappy with? Is it not open enough in some manner?

Re:OpenJDK? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37951358)

It's not a cleanroom implementation. Might be patent incumbent.

Re:OpenJDK? (1)

peppepz (1311345) | more than 2 years ago | (#37952210)

OpenJDK is GPL, therefore it contains an implicit patent grant (for what concerns Oracle patents).

Re:OpenJDK? (4, Insightful)

Jonner (189691) | more than 2 years ago | (#37951396)

It seems that IBM started Harmony to produce a complete, permissively licensed implementation of the Java specifications, while OpenJDK is Copyleft. A year ago, IBM shifted their support to OpenJDK, so there's no longer a major sponsor for Harmony. That, in addition to the fact that Apache is no longer participating in the Java Community Process seems to be the reason there's little development going on in Harmony.

The reason that Apache resigned from the Java Community Process Executive Committee is that the Java specifications are completely controlled by Oracle, which doesn't allow their compliance test tools to be used freely. Harmony will remain in a similar relationship with Java that Mono has to DotNet rather than being a first class implementation. The significant difference between Java and DotNet seems to be that Sun/Oracle have released most (all?) of the official implementation as Free Software, but the specifications that software implement are still proprietary.

The main beneficiary of Harmony seems to be Google, which is using some code from the project as part of Android, though Android was never intended to be a complete Java implementation. They've made it clear that they want to use only permissively-licensed code so that they can release it as proprietary software whenever they want. That's exactly what they did with Android 3. While I'm glad IBM is now supporting a Copyleft implementation rather than a permissively-licensed implementation, a mature programming language system needs alternative implementations to keep the spec-writers honest. Oracle's handling of the specification process continues to prevent Java's use as a completely open system.

Re:OpenJDK? (1)

bigsexyjoe (581721) | more than 2 years ago | (#37951846)

Thanks for the info.

Does copyleft mean that if you use something what you release has to also be open source and free? Does that mean that Oracle is actually suing Google to be more open in their implementation rather than shut it down?

Do we know why they won't open source the compliance tools? Does that effectively prevent other implementations of Java from existing? Do we know why Oracle wants that?

Re:OpenJDK? (1)

vadim_t (324782) | more than 2 years ago | (#37951994)

Does copyleft mean that if you use something what you release has to also be open source and free?

Not if "what you release" is something that runs on the JVM.

The copyleft part only applies to you if "what you release" is the modified JVM, or something that reuses parts of its code. The license specifically contains a linking exception, so linking to the JVM (eg, using the class library that comes with it) doesn't fall under the copyleft license.

Re:OpenJDK? (1)

increment1 (1722312) | more than 2 years ago | (#37952016)

There is a field of use restriction on the TCK tools preventing other certified Java implementations from being used in a mobile environment. Ostensibly this would be done because there is money to be made by charging for mobile implementations.

Re:OpenJDK? (2)

Chibi Merrow (226057) | more than 2 years ago | (#37952040)

Does that mean that Oracle is actually suing Google to be more open in their implementation rather than shut it down?

No, that's not it at all. It has nothing to do with openness and everything to do with ensuring that there can never be a JVM that competes with the one Oracle bought from Sun.

Do we know why they won't open source the compliance tools? Does that effectively prevent other implementations of Java from existing? Do we know why Oracle wants that?

Yes, yes, and yes. Your second question is the answer to the first. As far as your third question... Oracle doesn't want competing Java implementations because they don't want to compete with another Java implementation. There's nothing deeper to it than that.

The sad part of all this is Sun was a pretty lackluster steward of Java (too unwilling to break backwards compatibility with bytecode written in 1996 to fix problems in the language), but Oracle has been downright harmful to Java since taking it over. For their first major JVM release, they punted all the important features for Java 7 to a later release and then shipped with a (known) bug that broke loops.
Let me repeat that again:

THEY. BROKE. LOOPS.

A world where Oracle has the only legal implementation of Java is a world where Java is on its way to being a dead language.

Unfortunately for my shop, its not like we can rewrite millions of lines of code as C#, either, as Mono has a whole different patent minefield...

Glad I'm the 'C++' guy and I'm learning Flex. :)

Re:OpenJDK? (1)

peppepz (1311345) | more than 2 years ago | (#37952476)

Does copyleft mean that if you use something what you release has to also be open source and free?

In this particular case no, because OpenJDK is released under the GPLv2 license but with the GNU Classpath Exception:

As such, it can be used to run, create and distribute a large class of applications and applets. When GNU Classpath is used unmodified as the core class library for a virtual machine, compiler for the java languge, or for a program written in the java programming language it does not affect the licensing for distributing those programs directly.

Do we know why they won't open source the compliance tools?

I think that certification was one way for Sun's to monetize Java while offering it for free.

Does that effectively prevent other implementations of Java from existing? Do we know why Oracle wants that?

Other implementations can exist (that's why Apache Harmony was there until now), but you can't call them "Java" without paying Oracle for the compliance certification. I think it's more or less the same thing as the Unix trademark - Mac OS X can call itself Unix because Apple paid for the certification, Linux although largely Unix-compatible can't call itself Unix because the certification process isn't feasible for open source software.

I am no license expert, but I think that Oracle owns key patents that might cover implementations of the Java platform; OpenJDK is safe because it's released by Oracle under the GPL, but third-party implementations might not have the same protection.

Re:OpenJDK? (1)

VGPowerlord (621254) | more than 2 years ago | (#37952702)

Does copyleft mean that if you use something what you release has to also be open source and free?

Yes, specifically OpenJDK is under the GPLv2.

Does that mean that Oracle is actually suing Google to be more open in their implementation rather than shut it down?

While I wouldn't put it that way, technically yes.

However, the real reason is Oracle wants Google to pay royalties to them like all phones that use JavaME do.

Do we know why they won't open source the compliance tools?

Because they make money from it?

Does that effectively prevent other implementations of Java from existing?

No, other implementations exist, such as IBM's version [ibm.com] . JRockIt was another, but BEA was bought by Oracle before Sun was.

Do we know why Oracle wants that?

See: Sun Microsystems, Inc. v. Microsoft Corporation

In other words, Sun (and their successor in interest Oracle) want to control the platform to prevent fragmentation, and they likely perceive open source systems not under their control as being likely to fragment it.

I could be wrong though.

Re:OpenJDK? (1)

increment1 (1722312) | more than 2 years ago | (#37951908)

To add to the above, I believe the specific disagreements were in regards to licensing clauses of the TCK preventing the use of certified Java implementations in a mobile environment.

The particular licensing restrictions were not in compliance with the Java Community Process rules, but that unfortunately has not resulted in the license being changed. The entire fight seems to be directed specifically at Google, and Harmony is a casualty of the battle Oracle is waging (possibly at the behest of Steve Jobs who was a purported close friend of Larry Ellison).

Re:OpenJDK? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37954076)

Performance wise on ARM it sucks compared to the ejre.

Apach eHarmony (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37951106)

Anyone else read the title as "Apach eHarmony Moves To Apache Attic"?
Damn I'm lonely.

screw apple! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37951134)

just another example of apple stifling innovation! oh this is apache... sorry, stopped reading the article after the first three letters.

Nostalgia (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37951408)

I miss the Slashdot from the late 90's and early 00's. Now it's a bunch of young ass punks now who couldn't tie their shoes due to their feeling of self entitlement.

Anyone born after about 1980 should have their internet privileges taken away so maybe we can cut down on all the crap that flows from their mouths. A quick and easy way to do that would be to block wireless signals on Wall Street right now so the poor little protesters can't bitch about being poor while twittering away on their iPhones and Macbooks with expensive data plans.

At least all those punks wearing skinny jeans (a.k.a. women's pants) have their tiny testicles wrapped up so tight that they won't be able to breed. Plus, we could also make sure anyone wearing a fedora is chemically castrated to eliminate that part of the overall human gene pool.

It's time to call the GNAA back into action so they can organize hit teams to make it happen. It would be super sneaky since those young retards have to have at least one black or gay person in their entourage so they can pretend they're diverse and cultured. BLAM! Next thing you know, the GNAA pull's out their giant gay nigger cocks and beats them all into oblivion and end this travesty once an for all.

Bah. What do I know. I'm just a poor troll who tries to take a little time out of my day to bring a little sense back into this world full of liberal arts majors who what a 6 figure job where all they do is contemplate their naval.

Grow a pair, move out of yours parent's house, get off their health insurance and learn how to be a contributing member of society through hard work. Maybe then you'll learn that life isn't fair, you're not special and being a vegan makes you smell funny.

Now to get off my soap box. Time to get back to work so I can earn my money to pay my bills since I don't expect anyone else to do it for me.

Harmony (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37951432)

"Harm me with Harmony" says MC Hawking. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2knWCuzcdJo [youtube.com]

In the spirit of the Golden Girls theme troll (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37951624)

Harmony and me
Are pretty good company
looking for an island in a photo pharmacy
Harmony gee I really love you
and I want to love you forever
and dream of never, never leaving Harmony

Harmony went to the attic? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37951748)

Sounds like an old IRC discussion.

Relocate people to Symphony & OO (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#37956514)

pleaseeeeeeeeeeee.

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