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Mongolia Wants To Use Artificial Glaciers To Cool Capital

samzenpus posted about 2 years ago | from the we're-going-to-need-a-bigger-ice-cube-tray dept.

Earth 97

phaedrus5001 wrote in with a story about an unusual plan to regulate the temperature of Ulan Bator, the capital city of Mongolia. The article reads: "The city of Ulan Bator will attempt to capture some of the cool winter temperatures in huge ice blocks that will slowly melt over the summer and cool down the city. The aim is to build artificial ice shields — or 'naleds' — that occur naturally in far northern climates and can grow to be more than seven meters thick. They grow when river water pushes through cracks in the surface of the ice during the day and then freezes to add an extra layer of ice when night falls. Engineering consortium EMI-ECOS will try to replicate this process by creating holes in the ice that is forming over the Tuul river. This will be repeated over and over again until the ice is much thicker than it would be if left alone."

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With an average high of about 70 degrees... (4, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#38077658)

... in the summer, I'm not sure they need that much cooling. (That's slightly over twenty degrees for those of you who don't speak proper American).

Re:With an average high of about 70 degrees... (1)

jasonbowen (683345) | about 2 years ago | (#38077706)

I was thinking the same thing, it isn't exactly warm there. I guess that 70 Fahrenheit is hot when you consider the average high come winter time is -10 Celsius.

Re:With an average high of about 70 degrees... (1)

PowerCyclist (2058868) | about 2 years ago | (#38077782)

Yeah, if their summers are that mild, it doesn't seem necessary. But then again, as a proof of concept, it has to happen somewhere the winters get very cold but the summers could stand to loose a little bit of heat. If they're too cold during the summer, they can break up the ice.

Re:With an average high of about 70 degrees... (4, Interesting)

ackthpt (218170) | about 2 years ago | (#38078596)

Yeah, if their summers are that mild, it doesn't seem necessary. But then again, as a proof of concept, it has to happen somewhere the winters get very cold but the summers could stand to loose a little bit of heat. If they're too cold during the summer, they can break up the ice.

Can't cite a source, but I do believe our bodies become accustomed to the cycles of a climate. Spending most of winter, for most of my life in colder climes I visited Athens, Greece a couple times in Winter. After a few days of 70 F/ 20 C I was miserable and felt overburdened by the heat. I booked flight for Geneva and when I stepped onto the tarmac in Switzerland, I opened my jacket to let the cool 10 F / -10 C air in. It felt good. I believe it was an example of a metabolism which was accustomed to generating body heat couldn't cope well with warmer weather in the middle of Winter.

With glaciers and Winter in decline across the world perhaps cities are noticing an increase in heat.

Re:With an average high of about 70 degrees... (1)

PowerCyclist (2058868) | about 2 years ago | (#38078812)

I have a similar story with humidity. Growing up in New Orleans, the first few times I went to vacation in Nevada, nearly every orifice in my body bled. Likewise, my friends from there would constantly feel 'sticky' when visiting New Orleans. After several trips back and forth though, we all got use to it.

Re:With an average high of about 70 degrees... (2)

rrohbeck (944847) | about 2 years ago | (#38079584)

There is no such thing as bad weather, only improper clothing. If you feel hot at 20C you're wearing too much.

Re:With an average high of about 70 degrees... (1)

Dahamma (304068) | about 2 years ago | (#38079778)

Or are morbidly obese.

Re:With an average high of about 70 degrees... (2)

BluBrick (1924) | more than 2 years ago | (#38081322)

Amounts to the same thing.

Re:With an average high of about 70 degrees... (1)

Dahamma (304068) | more than 2 years ago | (#38082654)

Only if you figure out how to shed 100lbs with a zipper.

Re:With an average high of about 70 degrees... (1)

BluBrick (1924) | more than 2 years ago | (#38082728)

By the way, if you do find out, I'd be really interested to know. I've discovered, as I have come into middle age, that my broad mind and my narrow waist have traded roles.

Dance Dance Revolution (1)

tepples (727027) | more than 2 years ago | (#38085476)

Try DDR. Start with the 1 foot songs, and by the time you're doing things like Paranoia [youtube.com] , you're in a lot better shape than you used to be.

Re:With an average high of about 70 degrees... (1)

maglor_83 (856254) | about 2 years ago | (#38079898)

Sure. So long as ice vests count as clothing. When it's pushing 50C it doesn't matter how little you're wearing, it's still bloody hot!

Re:With an average high of about 70 degrees... (1)

rrohbeck (944847) | more than 2 years ago | (#38081922)

Depends on the humidity. 50C dry is tolerable, 50C at high humidity will kill you.

Re:With an average high of about 70 degrees... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38083206)

50C dry is quite dangerous for more than short periods.

Re:With an average high of about 70 degrees... (1)

Eddi3 (1046882) | about 2 years ago | (#38080028)

Bullshit. I live in Seattle, where the average during the summer is around 70F, but when it gets to 70+ I'll be sweating even if I'm naked in my house sitting still. I typically wear a t-shirt and shorts for most of the year, unless it dips below 40F. I like to cool my room down to 60F during the summer, and during the winter I never turn the heat on. I moved here from Florida, and after living here for 3-4 years I became very accustomed to the colder weather.

Re:With an average high of about 70 degrees... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#38080250)

You have to chill your room to 60F in the summer? Dude, you need to see a doctor and check out your thyroid because your metabolism is messed up! -unless you're just overweight, to which I would not comment.

Re:With an average high of about 70 degrees... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38081308)

I live in Sydney. We don't even turn on ceiling fans until it gets to 95F.

Re:With an average high of about 70 degrees... (1)

DeftPunk79 (1232522) | about 2 years ago | (#38080062)

If the winters are -10 degrees on the average then the ice shield would also act as an insulator to dampen some that cold.

Re:With an average high of about 70 degrees... (-1, Offtopic)

PowerCyclist (2058868) | about 2 years ago | (#38077712)

Why is it the douchbags always get first post?

Re:With an average high of about 70 degrees... (0)

Jeng (926980) | about 2 years ago | (#38077778)

Because only douchbags care who got first post.

I'm only answering this question because you asked, not that I care.

Re:With an average high of about 70 degrees... (1)

PowerCyclist (2058868) | about 2 years ago | (#38077830)

That's what I was implying. It'd be nice if /. added a little marker to indicate which posts are anonymous in their title -so that you don't have to expand them to find out. And thanks for answering.

Re:With an average high of about 70 degrees... (2)

Jeng (926980) | about 2 years ago | (#38078080)

You can just set the filter to 1 so that you don't see any 0 or -1 comments which would take care of the majority of the anon posts for you.

If someone does up-mod an anon post it usually means he did actually contribute something to the discussion so you'll still see some anon posts, but they should at least be worth a read.

Re:With an average high of about 70 degrees... (5, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#38077900)

It's basically the same climate as Winnipeg, and we use air conditioning for a good chunk of the summer. the average high is around 20C, but that's because it alternates between 10C and 30C through most of the summer. Also, northern towns just aren't equipped to deal with heat waves - nobody has swimming pools, and only about 70% of homes have air conditioning. If the temperature is over 35C, pretty much everything shuts down. On the other hand, throw us a week of -40, or a foot of snow and it's life as usual.

Re:With an average high of about 70 degrees... (1)

demonlapin (527802) | about 2 years ago | (#38078758)

But what about your lows? Can't you open the windows at night to cool off? Glancing at last year's weather it looked like you really needed AC about ten days if you did that.

By contrast, although my home in the Southeast never gets really cold, we had 61 straight days this summer in which the temperature never fell below 20 C.

Re:With an average high of about 70 degrees... (1)

Hadlock (143607) | more than 2 years ago | (#38080692)

In Dallas many of the older homes that had central AC added after the 1960's simply have their windows painted shut as a way to seal the house from the heat. We measure "days over 100" (that's 42c roughly) in double digits, the record being 42. The total number of days over 100 in any given year ranges from 30 to 70. For example my last two houses were built in 1914 and 1945, single pane windows and wood floors. Sealing the windows by painting them shut is a last ditch effort to keep my electric bill under $200 a month in the summer months. The downside is that in the six weeks a year when the low is more than 15 degrees lower than the high for the day, I am stuck cooling the house with electricity rather than simply opening the windows for an hour.

Re:With an average high of about 70 degrees... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38080958)

We measure "days over 100" (that's 42c roughly) in double digits, the record being 42. The total number of days over 100 in any given year ranges from 30 to 70.

Wait, if the record is 42, wouldn't the total number of days range from... 30 to 42?

Re:With an average high of about 70 degrees... (1)

demonlapin (527802) | more than 2 years ago | (#38081814)

He probably means 42 days in a row over 100.

Re:With an average high of about 70 degrees... (1)

bwalzer (708512) | more than 2 years ago | (#38082070)

It is hard to make windows that both insulate really well and provide a large apeture when open. My house (which coincidentally is also in Winnipeg) has laughably small window openings. Modern insulated windows are better but it is still a tradeoff. The uninsulated windows that originally came with the house were much better in the summer than anything I would install today (triple pane R5+).

I can overcome this to some extent with a powerful fan but I have to live with a lot of noise at night...

Re:With an average high of about 70 degrees... (1)

swb (14022) | more than 2 years ago | (#38086774)

I live in Minnesota in a house built in the 1950s without central air (it was actually added to the house in the 1970s, and we have a modern compressor, etc).

I'm not sure how they lived in the house in the summer before A/C. Any day with a daytime temperature over 80 degrees the house will generally be at least 3 degrees warmer than the outside ambient air temperature, my (master) bedroom, at least 5 degrees warmer. Strangely, even after the sun sets, the house remains warm and retains the heat long after midnight. Bedroom temps at 11 pm will still be above 80. In the morning at 5 AM, the bedroom will be down in the mid 70s, despite an outside air temp in the mid-high 60s.

And all of this, of course, is with all the windows open, including a sliding glass door in the bedroom (which makes for a 7 ft x 3.5 ft open window).

I hate paying for it, but sleeping sucks without air conditioning. When we first moved in (from a duplex with no A/C), the AC didn't work well, so we didn't run it and it was pretty miserable.

What I wish the AC was smart enough to do was draw air from outside if the outside air temp was 2 degrees or more lower than the set point. Much of the time in Minnesota we could just pump in outside air to cool the house after 1-2 AM. I know there are heat exchangers, but from what I've read they don't exactly work this way, and we'd still be running some kind of cold coil to dehumidify any air we'd bring in, mitigating some of the energy savings.

About the only thing that would be practical would be putting an vent in the ceiling of every upstairs room and forcibly venting it outside, thus drawing in air from the windows, but just having that would probably leak too much heat in the winter.

Re:With an average high of about 70 degrees... (1)

Anguirel (58085) | more than 2 years ago | (#38091376)

If you have fireplaces with chimneys, you could try opening the flue (without the fire) to see if it would draw air in.

Re:With an average high of about 70 degrees... (1)

demonlapin (527802) | more than 2 years ago | (#38101684)

Attic fan might help, but your point is taken. As for how they did it in the past, they just suffered. My father-in-law grew up in Dallas and didn't have any A/C at all in his house until he was in third grade (~1960) and none in any of his elementary or secondary schools.

Re:With an average high of about 70 degrees... (1)

swb (14022) | more than 2 years ago | (#38103160)

They did suffer, but they also built dwellings (especially the better ones) to ventilate -- high ceilings, floor plans that allowed for cross-ventilation, transoms above doors, and attics with windows to better vent the heat.

Some even had "sleeping porches" -- large screen porches people slept on during extreme hot spells.

All these things were less common in MN because it generally is less brutal than more southern states, but I have seen plenty of old photographs and written descriptions of heat spells where people ended up sleeping on front porches or in city parks when it got really hot.

Re:With an average high of about 70 degrees... (1)

Dahamma (304068) | about 2 years ago | (#38079868)

Actually, it's not really the same climate... just similar latitude. A lot of Mongolia is in the Gobi desert, so the temperature variation is more like -40 to 40+ (and commonly hits those extremes rather than being a rare event).

Re:With an average high of about 70 degrees... (1)

evilviper (135110) | more than 2 years ago | (#38082742)

Also, northern towns just aren't equipped to deal with heat waves - nobody has swimming pools, and only about 70% of homes have air conditioning.

As a desert rat myself, who goes jogging in 50C (120F) weather, I feel compelled to remind everyone that YOU CAN HANDLE HIGH TEMPERATURES. Is everyone unaware that 35C (95F) is BELOW normal body temperature? And when it gets warmer than that, a little perspiration kicks in and keeps your temperature well regulated. I realize in many places like Los Angeles a heat wave will cause a blackout as millions of airconditioners struggle to keep up, but that's an "I've got too much money" thing, not remotely necessary.

In fact humans are among the animals most highly evolved to handle high temperatures. Endurance hunting is proof enough of that. We don't have fur, and we've got whole-body persiration for major cooling. The only requirements you need to keep in mind are light, short, loose cotton clothing, shade and airflow wherever you can get it, and lots of water and electrolytes (ie. salt).

Of course, if you do have a really hard time of it (medical problems, overweight, whatever) the life-savers are knowing that cold drinks and/or ice helps a lot, and that dumping a bucket of tap water over your head will immediately and dramatically cool you down.

People insist on airconditioning only because they refuse to adapt, and want to wear long pants, long sleeves, without ever a single bead of sweat forming, and with no airflow to speak of.

Re:With an average high of about 70 degrees... (1)

drinkypoo (153816) | more than 2 years ago | (#38084054)

In fact humans are among the animals most highly evolved to handle high temperatures.

Some of us wilt in the heat. Some people do very well. Some of us do well in the cold. Mexicans wear their hoodies until it's like 80 out. I think you are overgeneralizing.

Re:With an average high of about 70 degrees... (1)

evilviper (135110) | more than 2 years ago | (#38095076)

I am not overgeneralizing at all. I'm stating a biological fact, which is rather universally accepted.

Another one you'll hate... All healthy adults are capable of running marathons.

Re:With an average high of about 70 degrees... (1)

drinkypoo (153816) | more than 2 years ago | (#38096718)

Another one you'll hate... All healthy adults are capable of running marathons.

Haha, you're funny. But the first guy to run a marathon died, and he was a runner, so he was probably in excellent health.

I'm not a healthy adult anyway, I have Asthma, probably because my mom smoked until she found out she was pregnant (thanks for quitting when you decided to try to have a kid, bitch) and my dad smoked throughout the pregnancy and then with me in the car and shit like that.

Re:With an average high of about 70 degrees... (1)

evilviper (135110) | more than 2 years ago | (#38105880)

NARRATOR: Steve's embrace of endurance running raises the question, are we all born to run?

Some human features seem just right for the job like the springy arch of the human foot. Hairless skin and abundant sweat glands provide exceptional cooling. We also have large muscular butts which prevent us from tipping too far forward.

Humans don't run fast. Sometimes even squirrels can outrace us. But in a warm climate, over distance, we can outrun dogs, antelope, and even horses, which will all overheat.

In our evolutionary past, that may have been a killer advantage.

DANIEL E. LIEBERMAN (Harvard University): Early humans were so good at running in the middle of the day that they were able to run animals to exhaustion and to heat stroke. And then, at that point, the animal's already dying. It takes no technology to kill that animal, so you can safely and effectively, and fairly easily, have access to meat. ...

  MALISSA WOOD (Massachusetts General Hospital): The risk for dying during exercise is one out of 50,000. So it's higher than the risk of dying when you're just standing around in a sedentary fashion.

NARRATOR: Malissa Wood is a cardiologist who studies the effects of marathoning on the heart. And she's found how well the heart fares during the race depends on how diligently the runner has trained.

MALISSA WOOD: If the individual has not trained their heart adequately, the heart really starts getting tired. In people that have trained adequately for the marathon, their hearts look fine.

NARRATOR: Most heart attacks aren't caused by just tired and stressed heart muscle, but by blocked coronary arteries, often associated with poor diet and lack of exercise.

  http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/body/marathon-challenge.html [pbs.org]

Re:With an average high of about 70 degrees... (1)

drinkypoo (153816) | more than 2 years ago | (#38107410)

MALISSA WOOD: If the individual has not trained their heart adequately, the heart really starts getting tired. In people that have trained adequately for the marathon, their hearts look fine.

So far we're still not talking about average individuals; in fact, we're now talking about a subset (marathon trainers) of a subset (runners).

Keep trying! You'll never get there, but it's fun to watch! We're better evolved for walking than for running. Other animals have stuff we don't for that. But what we're really evolved for is adaptation. We adapt to new environments very rapidly. In fact, we even pass some of this adaptation on to our offspring. If you're born at high altitude then your lungs will grow larger to compensate for the reduced available oxygen, but your offspring will have a chance to start with enlarged lungs and to have them get even bigger. So some of us are adapted to run, and some to walk, and some to sit on ass, and some to metabolize calcium very very well since they don't get as much, and so on. Each of these adaptations comes with a tradeoff. Sure, if you just go to another altitude your blood will thin or thicken over time, but you're never going to adapt as well as someone who started where you did but has had generations to get there. And no matter how much you run, you're not going to run as well as someone who was quite literally born to run. That person, however, may find it more damaging to sit on ass. Therefore they should run the marathons, and you should drive rally or something :p

Re:With an average high of about 70 degrees... (1)

evilviper (135110) | more than 2 years ago | (#38107602)

So far we're still not talking about average individuals; in fact, we're now talking about a subset (marathon trainers) of a subset (runners).

No, we aren't. The quote doesn't say anything like that, so you just pulled that one entirely out of your ass. And your assertion is directly refuted by the source I already cited.

you're never going to adapt as well as someone who started where you did but has had generations to get there.

Is this your utter misunderstanding of evolution on display here? Nothing magic happens in-utero (being "born there"), and none of your "adaptations" get passed to the next generation in any way.

And no matter how much you run, you're not going to run as well as someone who was quite literally born to run

Directly refuted by the source already cited.

In summary: It's not my fault you never learned to read.

Re:With an average high of about 70 degrees... (1)

swalve (1980968) | more than 2 years ago | (#38085546)

The body needs to radiate heat to stay at that temperature. (Above some ambient temp.) If you can't shed enough heat, the temperature starts going up. Besides the ambient temperature, you need to account for radiant heat loads. On sunny days when I am stuck in the car driving long distances, I can get the A/C to bring the ambient down just fine. But the heat radiating through the body of the car means I'm still sweating bullets and feel like shit.

Re:With an average high of about 70 degrees... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38085552)

While you are right that 95F is below body temperature, you are completely forgetting that humans are warm blooded. Combine those two and 95F actually becomes quite dangerous (a change of 10F with body temperature is most likely fatal).

Re:With an average high of about 70 degrees... (1)

evilviper (135110) | more than 2 years ago | (#38095328)

I didn't forget that at all. Humans are warm-blooded, but it's not as if you're always generating the same amount of heat. Your body cuts down on its less necessary heat-generating activities as temperatures increase, which is a big part of the reason why I find myself eating next to nothing, day after day, through the summer. More importantly, your body heat isn't confined, internally. Increased blood flood brings heat close to your skin, where it can be cooled by the air (and sweat, if it's a bit hotter).

Re:With an average high of about 70 degrees... (1)

jez9999 (618189) | more than 2 years ago | (#38082940)

It's basically the same climate as Winnipeg, and we use air conditioning for a good chunk of the summer. the average high is around 20C, but that's because it alternates between 10C and 30C through most of the summer.

Your air conditioning sounds like overkill. It gets hotter than 30C ni the UK sometimes in summer and air conditioning is almost unheard-of outside of big commercial buildings.

Re:With an average high of about 70 degrees... (2)

eexaa (1252378) | about 2 years ago | (#38078046)

In a landscape that far from large water bodies the nightly/daily temperatures differ much more than here. That can perfectly give them pretty annoying 110F during day and 40F every night.

Re:With an average high of about 70 degrees... (1)

ackthpt (218170) | about 2 years ago | (#38079530)

In a landscape that far from large water bodies the nightly/daily temperatures differ much more than here. That can perfectly give them pretty annoying 110F during day and 40F every night.

Sounds like Sacramento, or even Mountain View, California. The humidity of the surrounding air has an insulative effect. Drier air, like you'll find in Nevada, Arizona and California can have similar daily temperature swings. You'll feel the heat much less in dry surroundings. Ulan Bator has relative humidity around 60% during the Summer months, so wide swings are likely.

I still think they would benefit more found creating some parks with broad shallow ponds, with some fountains. If they have the water for ice then they should be able to muster enough for these and evaporation would cool the air quite effectively.

Re:With an average high of about 70 degrees... (1)

swalve (1980968) | more than 2 years ago | (#38085590)

This is true. The altitude makes a difference too. I was in Lake Tahoe one time (6220 feet, 1800m), and the day night temperature swings were wild. Even when the sun went behind the clouds, I could feel a chill even though the temperature was in the 60s or 70s.

Re:With an average high of about 70 degrees... (1)

Neil Boekend (1854906) | more than 2 years ago | (#38084164)

It sounds like proper insulation and a "heat recovery installation" (dunno the proper English word and Wiki won't help me. It's a kind of ventilation that heats/cools the incoming air with the outgoing air, expensive models have a way around the system if the temp outside is closer to the set temp as the inside temp is. Despite the name it works perfectly to keep your house cool in the summer, although it won't get your house cool).
Airco's are unnessecary if the outside temp varies around the perfect temp. A decent solution should only cost about 1/20th of an airco solution (in energy cost). It doesn't even have to vary perfectly symmetrical, as long as the outside temp is below the perfect temp at night.

Re:With an average high of about 70 degrees... (0, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#38079334)

God damn Mongorians...

Re:With an average high of about 70 degrees... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#38079992)

Average? I guess you need to visit a statistics 101 course.

Re:With an average high of about 70 degrees... (1)

GumphMaster (772693) | more than 2 years ago | (#38082388)

Perhaps they are trying to lure Google/Yahoo/Microsoft data centres to Ulan Bator with a surfeit of coolness?

Re:With an average high of about 70 degrees... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38083298)

It's plus 40c in the summer, minus 40c in the winter. Serious extremes of temperature.

Very Interesting (1)

PowerCyclist (2058868) | about 2 years ago | (#38077660)

Got to admit, that's the most realistic way to naturally cool an area I've heard of to date. I just hope it doesn't mess with any established order too much -like fish migrations or an increase in flooding.

Re:Very Interesting (3, Informative)

Aryden (1872756) | about 2 years ago | (#38077898)

Rome used water fountains in the squares and other public areas to keep the heat down and add moisture to the area.

Re:Very Interesting (1)

PowerCyclist (2058868) | about 2 years ago | (#38077940)

Yes, that helps a little with heat but also causes molding. Also, in places like Louisiana it does nothing at all.

Re:Very Interesting (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#38078012)

Mold wasn't a problem back then, as there were very few extra-tight buildings for mold to thrive in and create a concentration of spores.

Re:Very Interesting (1)

PowerCyclist (2058868) | about 2 years ago | (#38078734)

OK, but it would be a problem now, and that's the issue. But, to add, I bet less people were allergic to molds back then.

Re:Very Interesting (1)

Aryden (1872756) | more than 2 years ago | (#38085198)

Louisiana is already too humid. Additionally, you wouldn't be able to place an iceberg there to cool things off without it A) melting too fast to actually help, or B) hindering the local wildlife. Mold wasn't an issue because of several factors, mainly the fact that you had flowing water dispersing from central points over large spaces, as well as having buildings that were regularly scrubbed clean.

I can argue that there were far fewer allergies to everything back then vs now. The proliferation of modern medicine in our lives keeps us from building up antibodies and other resistances to nature that our ancestors had.

Re:Very Interesting (1)

swalve (1980968) | more than 2 years ago | (#38085620)

You have it backwards. Allergies are an overreaction of antibodies. They see a peanut protein, for example, and think it is poison. They overreact and cause swelling in the area, designed to keep the poison in place while it is destroyed by some process. (White blood cells or oxidation or something.)

Re:Very Interesting (1)

PowerCyclist (2058868) | more than 2 years ago | (#38085708)

Exactly, but back in the day, people with severe food allergies simply died much of the time because no one knew what was going on -or they thought that person was diseased/ possessed and refused to help them. Therefor, there were less people in the population with allergies because there were less to pass on the defective genes that cause them.

Re:Very Interesting (1)

swalve (1980968) | more than 2 years ago | (#38086124)

Ah, coming from that angle it makes sense. That is true. Although, don't make the same mistake I've made and tell the mommies you know who wail about "why so many allergies now?" about that fact. It makes them uncomfortable.

Re:Very Interesting (1)

PowerCyclist (2058868) | more than 2 years ago | (#38085760)

Um, I don't see what you're trying to get at. You tone and sentence structure suggests that you're arguing, but you're agreeing with everything I already said. You expanded the concepts, but agreed with them nonetheless.

Re:Very Interesting (5, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#38078160)

They use a similar technique to cool the Kidd Creek mine: http://blogs.agu.org/martianchronicles/2011/08/01/9800-feet/

"We learned during the mine briefing video that part of the cooling system actually involves opening up huge caverns near the surface during the winter and forcing the bitter cold air through while spraying water. This coats the tunnels in thick layers of ice. Then, during the summer, air is passed through these cavernous iceboxes before being sent down to the bottom of the mine."

Re:Very Interesting (1)

hodet (620484) | more than 2 years ago | (#38088086)

Are you from Timmins?

Re:Very Interesting (4, Interesting)

inpher (1788434) | about 2 years ago | (#38078274)

I suppose we could compare this to Ice Hotel in northern Sweden where they take 10 000 cubic meters of ice from the Torne River [wikipedia.org] , since the flow of the river is about 370 cubic meters per second this means a disruption of slightly less than 30 seconds that melts back over the course of a few months. Tuul River [wikipedia.org] that will be used for this seems like a river of comparable size (longer, but likely a slower flow). If the Ulan Bator experiment will produce use ten times as much ice (100 000 cubic meters) and it will take about 120 days for it to melt back into the river it would be at a rate of: about 833 cubic meters per day, or about 34 cubic meters per hour,> or less than 600 liters per second.

Now, for that to be a significant difference compared to normal flow during these months average flow must be if we say that anything less than 5% change is no big deal (I do not know what changes the river can actually deal with before botched migrations or flooding becomes a risk) for the river 12 cubic meters per second.

If the river is flowing at 30 cubic meters per second and 5% change as a threshold then Ulan Bator could conceivably take 300 000 cubic meters of ice, let it melt during 150 days (april, may, june, july, august) and still not make a difference in the normal water flow.

Re:Very Interesting (1)

ackthpt (218170) | about 2 years ago | (#38078614)

They might simply be further ahead with creating several shallow fountains around the city. Evaporation could cool day temperatures, too.

Re:Very Interesting (1)

afidel (530433) | about 2 years ago | (#38079316)

833 tonnes of ice over 12 hours is 76.5 tons of cooling per hour, that's less than a midsized datacenter. I can't see how that can possibly have any meaningful effect on something the size of a city.

Re:Very Interesting (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#38080338)

its about 6.4MW over 150 days, which is 23GWh. and thats only the energy required to melt 0 degree ice into 0 degree water

Add 2.6GWh for every degree in temperature raised as well

to go from -20 to +10 degrees you're looking at over 100GWh of power.

Re:Very Interesting (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38080734)

And? A commercial nuclear reactor dumps about 2.3GW thermal per hour into the environment and it's not like we consider the addition of a nuclear plant to affect the temperature of a nearby city.

Re:Very Interesting (1)

inpher (1788434) | more than 2 years ago | (#38080900)

They do not need a nuclear reactor to dump energy into the environment ;), they need a simple and cheap way to cool parts of the city. A nuclear power plant, while relatively predictable is neither cheap nor simple. Nor will reactors dumping 2.3GW thermal per hour (as per your numbers) into the vicinity of the city help cool it down. Though a nuclear power plant could be used to replace the three old and toxic coal power plants currently powering the city, however, the country is poor and perhaps lacks the necessary skilled labor to keep the infrastructure and power plant running.

Re:Very Interesting (1)

afidel (530433) | more than 2 years ago | (#38081346)

My point was that even in the immediate area surrounding a nuclear plant the temperature isn't significantly affected despite the fact that it's literally pumping two order of magnitude more thermal energy into the environment.

Re:Very Interesting (1)

inpher (1788434) | more than 2 years ago | (#38081608)

It is supposed to augment/replace air conditioners and regulate drinking water and irrigation supplies, not cool down the exterior and interior of an entire city.

Re:Very Interesting (1)

findoutmoretoday (1475299) | more than 2 years ago | (#38083024)

<quote>My point was that even in the immediate area surrounding a nuclear plant the temperature isn't significantly affected despite the fact that it's literally pumping two order of magnitude more thermal energy into the environment.</quote>

The warm air of a power plant leaves mostly through a huge cooling tower upwards consuming enormous quantities of water,  the local effect is extra rainfall.  Where cold air sticks to the ground.

Re:Very Interesting (1)

swalve (1980968) | more than 2 years ago | (#38085644)

I drive past a nuclear reactor sometimes, and the only obvious difference is that on moist, cool days, a bit of a fog comes off the cooling lake.

Re:Very Interesting (1)

dbIII (701233) | more than 2 years ago | (#38082022)

That's one reason why they get built on really big rivers, lakes or next to the sea. With a very large source of water it doesn't matter, and without much water it's not practical. Now while you could run it a bit colder that removes the entire point of having nuclear power anyway (bigger difference in temperature than you can get with a flame), so you may as well put it in a sane spot even if you have to run a couple of thousand kilometres of line (HVDC has low losses).

Re:Very Interesting (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38083084)

Just to note: Ice Hotel has been built in northern Finland, town of Kemi.

Yeah, I'm from Finland, I have a bias to ignore possible Ice Hotels in Sweden...

first xd (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#38077676)

lol i got first

Flooding and water rights (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#38077776)

Only downsides I see are flooding and water rights. But these should be no different from any resevour sceme.

Very confused (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#38077794)

Why is Microsoft involved in this?

Sounds very supervilliany if you ask me!

Obligatory (5, Funny)

Spigot the Bear (2318678) | about 2 years ago | (#38077818)

"Solving the global warming problem once and for all!"

"But..."

"Once and for all!"

Re:Obligatory (1)

PowerCyclist (2058868) | about 2 years ago | (#38077896)

Haha, I'd mod that if I hadn't already commented on the posting. Watch out for Al Gore's head flying around in a rocket powered jar trying to destroy ASIMO.

City sized stillsuit? (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#38077822)

The Ice Must Flow

Re:City sized stillsuit? (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#38078190)

The Ice Must Floe

I fixed your post for you.

This is very cool... (2)

alispguru (72689) | about 2 years ago | (#38078472)

A smaller scale version of the idea has been kicking around in the renewable energy area for many years - see ice ponds [wikipedia.org] .

Re:This is very cool... (1)

findoutmoretoday (1475299) | more than 2 years ago | (#38083054)

Every other "decent" 19th century house has an ice-pond and cellar

Smaller Scale Prescedent (3, Interesting)

bill_mcgonigle (4333) | about 2 years ago | (#38079174)

There was a story a few years back about a university (Scandinavia?) that spends the winter pumping water to freeze into a giant block on one part of campus, and then come summer, they just pump coolant through the block as it melts.

Pumping water is apparently much cheaper than traditional cooling.

Re:Smaller Scale Prescedent (4, Interesting)

afidel (530433) | about 2 years ago | (#38079368)

Ice block cooling is fairly common in commercial and datacenter cooling systems in areas where there is a large discrepancy in pricing between peak and off peak electric prices. Also it's rarely water that is used as the heat transfer media, it's usually glycol as using water would result in clogged pipes because it would freeze in the portion of the pipe in contact with the ice block.

ice pond (2, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#38079490)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ice_pond
An ice pond is a large volume of ice or snow produced and stored in the winter to be used for cooling/air conditioning in the summer. The best known experiment is the 'Princeton ice pond' by Ted Taylor in 1981. He then convinced the Prudential Insurance Company to use a bigger pond to provide air conditioning for a larger building.

Two Birds With One Stone (2)

darkfeline (1890882) | about 2 years ago | (#38080420)

If I remember my physics correctly, by inciting more ice formation during the winter, the freezing state change actually releases heat, which means winter will be marginally less harsh. Then, they'll take the extra ice and absorb heat during the winter. Win-win!

You Damn Mongorians!!! (1)

Cito (1725214) | more than 2 years ago | (#38081094)

Tear Down Dis Shitty Wall!!!

Thanks for this post: (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38083016)

The most prominent issue in our earth is global warming. we need to take a best step to control it. that's why because population is increase day by day.
Cheap Logo Design [logoonlinepros.com]

Testing to protect future permafrost melt? (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38083226)

If done on a large enough scale, could it help reduce the threat of methane gas escape from permafrost melt?

Or perhaps are they just testing to help sustain ice flow reliant communities?

Flood (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38083236)

They are building an artifical flooding. In spring the ice will block the water and create a flood (which will then wash aways the ice).

Re:Flood (1)

RockDoctor (15477) | more than 2 years ago | (#38083986)

In spring the ice will block the water and create a flood (which will then wash aways the ice).

That depends entirely on where they choose to put the ice block.

I don't know about you, but I suspect that the Mongolians are just as capable of thinking about this as you are, and working to avoid such problems. (It's even just about possible that one of them reads Slashdot, and is striking their forehead and saying "Doh!" at this very moment.)

Acclimatisation (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38084052)

I have lived several years in Canary Islands and Seville with up to 45 C and several years in Poland and Germany with down to - 30 C. After about 3 month your body gets used to the temperature and everything is OK, but during that acclimatisation period for example I was sweating when it was cold or felt terrible with anything over 20 degrees after getting used to cold weather.

Siberia is just next door (1)

unixisc (2429386) | more than 2 years ago | (#38091320)

I too was surprised, given that Mongolia has pretty normal temparatures of 70F. Anyway, here is an idea - maybe run it by Putin & Medvedyev. Ask them to trade land - take an area of 603,909 sq miles, which is the area of Mongolia, on Russia's northern coast in Krasnoyarsk Krai, and move everybody there, and in return, hand over all of Mongolia to Russia. I'm sure Russia will be happy with that trade, since that province is large but very thinly populated. Win-win situation - the Russians get a lot of habitable land (aside from the Gobi desert) while the Mongols solve their heat problem.

The Mongol can just retain some historic rights to some heritage sites, like Karakorum, Burhan Haldun (Chengiz Khan's birthplace) and maybe some others, but aside from that, the Mongols also get a coastline of their own (granted, they'd be better off flying a great circular route over the North Pole to get to countries outside Asia) and are no longer landlocked b/w Russia & China. Also, at one point in communist history, they were in danger of being swallowed by China, and were saved by the Soviets, but if they do this, they won't need to worry about China at all in the first place. In short, aside from the costs & effort associated w/ moving, I see few downsides to this.

So much for summer (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38093802)

Interestingly, hardly anyone in UB has air conditioning. We go play in the river to cool down. I guess that's over.

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