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The Future of Protest In Panopticon Nation

Soulskill posted more than 2 years ago | from the all-the-world-is-a-stage dept.

Privacy 566

Hugh Pickens writes "James Fallows writes that you don't have to idealize everything about the Occupy movement to recognize the stoic resolve of the protesters at UC Davis being pepper sprayed as a moral drama that the protesters clearly won. 'The self-control they show, while being assaulted, reminds me of grainy TV footage I saw as a kid, of black civil rights protesters being fire-hosed by Bull Connor's policemen in Alabama. Or of course the Tank Man in Tiananmen Square,' writes Fallows. 'Such images can have tremendous, lasting power.' We can't yet imagine all the effects of the panopticon society we are beginning to live in but one benefit to the modern protest movement is the omnipresence of cameras (video) as police officials, protesters, and nearly all onlookers are recording whatever goes on bringing greater accountability and a reality-test for police claims that they 'had' to use excessive force. 'What's new is that now the perception war occurs simultaneously with the physical struggle. There's almost parity,' writes Andrew Sprung. 'You have a truncheon or gun, I have a camera. You inflict pain, I inflict infamy.'"

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This guy ever been beaten up before? (5, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38141452)

First Post

"There's almost parity,' writes Andrew Sprung. 'You have a truncheon or gun, I have a camera. You inflict pain, I inflict infamy.'""

haha come on, parity?

Has this guy ever been pepper sprayed or beaten up before?

People shouldnt have to endure this to receive justice

Its a sad day our society thinks this is some kind of achievement or "balance" of power

Re:This guy ever been beaten up before? (5, Insightful)

causality (777677) | more than 2 years ago | (#38141652)

People shouldnt have to endure this to receive justice

No, they shouldn't, but this is the way it has always been.

You can read the autobiography of Mohandas Ghandi (a really wonderful book) and see the same patterns. You can read some Henry David Thoreau and understand why he would have preferred to remain in jail instead of having a well-meaning but less-principled individual pay his poll tax for him.

As long as the masses, the majority of people, are largely passive and indifferent to the injustice around them there will always be a need for exceptional individuals to take this kind of abuse to effect any real change. What people like Thoreau and Ghandi realized was the error of violence, the way it makes it so easy for those who control perception and use propaganda to make the violent (however justified) into evil bogeymen who will always be demonized in the popular mind.

I heard this one time and I never forgot it. It is a saying of Ghandi's: "the good that violence appears to do is temporary; the harm that it does is permanent." I suppose there are a lot of low-brow, smarmy types with nothing to contribute so for them maybe I should add "within the context of protest and trying to change society" so the fact that war sometimes is quite necessary is irrelevant. There was a time before it became necessary and that's when peaceful change was possible. I'm tired of that small-minded crowd, so I don't consider it a total waste to deny them the slam-dunk "victory" they so desperately crave.

At any rate, doing it peacefully means you absolutely must maintain the high ground. If you want to expose the establishment for the bunch of power-hungry thugs they tend to be, you cannot use their tactics. It provides no contrast. The unwise, reactionary, direction-less types who tend to attach themselves to any major movement are the biggest problem the Occupiers currently have. Do you not notice how the media reports with glee the rapes, murders, etc. that occur on the Occupied territory? That's exactly what they want -- for you to be no better. If you want to be effective, don't give it to them.

The legitimate projection of force. (4, Insightful)

khasim (1285) | more than 2 years ago | (#38141916)

Exactly.

The general populace understands that the State is the only entity that has a legitimate right to project force. Whether via the military (hopefully outside the country) or the police (inside the country). I include the CIA / FBI / etc in those categories.

Anyone else using force (particularly outside their social group) is IMMEDIATELY identified as a criminal. A threat to society.

There may be problems in society. And the majority of the population may even AGREE with you about those problems. But they do NOT want to have to deal with non-State violence. They see enough of that (and its effects) from criminals.

Re:This guy ever been beaten up before? (0, Troll)

stanlyb (1839382) | more than 2 years ago | (#38141956)

Sorry to ask you, but what exactly Ghandy achieved? I am not saying that he is not extraordinary man, but, did he actually change anything at all???

Re:This guy ever been beaten up before? (5, Insightful)

Anonymous Psychopath (18031) | more than 2 years ago | (#38141994)

Sorry to ask you, but what exactly Ghandy achieved? I am not saying that he is not extraordinary man, but, did he actually change anything at all???

Other than India's change from a British colony to a sovereign nation, you mean? Are you serious?

Re:This guy ever been beaten up before? (1)

JoeMerchant (803320) | more than 2 years ago | (#38141666)

First Post

"There's almost parity,' writes Andrew Sprung. 'You have a truncheon or gun, I have a camera. You inflict pain, I inflict infamy.'""

haha come on, parity?

Has this guy ever been pepper sprayed or beaten up before?

People shouldnt have to endure this to receive justice

Its a sad day our society thinks this is some kind of achievement or "balance" of power

The balance of power has always been a slow, grinding play of justice against violent acts.

You rob a convenience store, or ten, it profits you in the moment, but spending years behind bars is the price. If a cop beats a protester to death for no apparent reason and it is covered by several independent video cameras, he's a lot more likely to answer for his actions than if it was merely witnessed by 50 protesters who were also being beaten.

Re:This guy ever been beaten up before? (5, Insightful)

causality (777677) | more than 2 years ago | (#38141834)

First Post

"There's almost parity,' writes Andrew Sprung. 'You have a truncheon or gun, I have a camera. You inflict pain, I inflict infamy.'""

haha come on, parity?

Has this guy ever been pepper sprayed or beaten up before?

People shouldnt have to endure this to receive justice

Its a sad day our society thinks this is some kind of achievement or "balance" of power

The balance of power has always been a slow, grinding play of justice against violent acts.

You rob a convenience store, or ten, it profits you in the moment, but spending years behind bars is the price. If a cop beats a protester to death for no apparent reason and it is covered by several independent video cameras, he's a lot more likely to answer for his actions than if it was merely witnessed by 50 protesters who were also being beaten.

Unfortunately the worst penalty the cop is likely to face is either a paid vacation known as "administrative leave" or maybe the loss of his job. This is a serious problem. A free society won't stay that way if the police have some kind of special status above the citizens they are supposed to be serving. Incidentally, a cop who beats someone basically has to also charge them with resisting arrest (or similar) or he's admitting he beat them for no reason, so there is both the assault and the criminal charge that may haunt the person for life.

Even the idea that "assaulting a police officer" carries a higher penalty than assaulting a citizen might sound good but it's completely misguided. The cop is better able to respond to an assault, to have back-up, and carries an assortment of weaponry everywhere he goes. The average citizen is more likely to be unarmed and more likely to hesitate to use any available weapons for fear that a court will not consider it self-defense (we like victimhood and we like to encourage bullies so in many states you are expected to try fleeing first, nevermind this only emboldens the criminals). Even if there were not such an inequality, the cop is our servant, one particularly able to abuse his authority, and granting him equality alone is generous.

You simply can't have "special" or "protected" groups and expect to remain an egalitarian society that cherishes freedoms. It has never happened before and it won't happen again.

Re:This guy ever been beaten up before? (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38141998)

I love this post so very much. Thank you.

Re:This guy ever been beaten up before? (5, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38141746)

History always repeats itself. Swords and pens have become guns and cameras. The balance between them remains the same.

Unfortunately the reverse is also true... (5, Insightful)

infolation (840436) | more than 2 years ago | (#38141480)

With the proliferation of video and photographic 'evidence', people seem much more ready to believe an event didn't happen nowadays if there isn't visual 'smoking gun' evidence to prove it.

Re:Unfortunately the reverse is also true... (2)

Aryden (1872756) | more than 2 years ago | (#38141496)

[proof or it didn't happen]

Re:Unfortunately the reverse is also true... (1)

Zaphod The 42nd (1205578) | more than 2 years ago | (#38141830)

Though even then people can claim its shopp'd

Re:Unfortunately the reverse is also true... (4, Insightful)

Hentes (2461350) | more than 2 years ago | (#38141814)

Which is a good thing. The public being sceptical about what they hear unless shown proof is a huge step forward.

agents provocateurs (5, Insightful)

khasim (1285) | more than 2 years ago | (#38141492)

Look for more incidents involving agents provocateurs in future protests. It's easier to "justify" whatever actions are taken if they can show footage of a "protester" acting in an "unreasonable" fashion.

The public footage is having a huge impact right now because people are seeing people like themselves at the protests and NOT causing problems ... and hearing the official reports contradicting the footage.

Re:agents provocateurs (2)

Moheeheeko (1682914) | more than 2 years ago | (#38141600)

Right because, sitting on the ground arms behind your back while the cop takes out his can of pepper spray, holding it up and walking with it, showing it to the entire crowd before spraying you in the face untill the can is empty, is totally provoking him.

Those bastards and their damn sitting.

I don't think you understood that. (5, Informative)

khasim (1285) | more than 2 years ago | (#38141720)

Right because, sitting on the ground arms behind your back while the cop takes out his can of pepper spray, holding it up and walking with it, showing it to the entire crowd before spraying you in the face untill the can is empty, is totally provoking him.

The point of the "agent provocateur" is that he works WITH the authorities while POSING as one of the protesters.

So when the calm protesters are engaged in non-violent protests, the agent provocateur becomes violent. That "violence" is used to "justify" the violence against the non-violent protesters.

And it is that one "violent protester" who is shown in the media as an example of how "unreasonable" the protesters (as a group) are.

Re:I don't think you understood that. (1)

Moheeheeko (1682914) | more than 2 years ago | (#38141906)

I was more pointing out that the video clearly shows no provoking from the protesters, yet there is claim there was, supporting your point. I guess I could have worded that better... my mistake.

Re:agents provocateurs (1, Insightful)

causality (777677) | more than 2 years ago | (#38141918)

Right because, sitting on the ground arms behind your back while the cop takes out his can of pepper spray, holding it up and walking with it, showing it to the entire crowd before spraying you in the face untill the can is empty, is totally provoking him.

Those bastards and their damn sitting.

I wish you'd take one minute to Google a term with which you are obviously unfamiliar (agent provocateur) prior to responding to a post based around it. It would be better for everyone. It would also make it easier for you to avoid responding with pure emotion during a factual discussion.

Re:agents provocateurs (2)

causality (777677) | more than 2 years ago | (#38141874)

Look for more incidents involving agents provocateurs in future protests. It's easier to "justify" whatever actions are taken if they can show footage of a "protester" acting in an "unreasonable" fashion.

The public footage is having a huge impact right now because people are seeing people like themselves at the protests and NOT causing problems ... and hearing the official reports contradicting the footage.

This is what bothers me about the average person. If it isn't undeniably smacking them in the face, they have no clue how much and how often their media lies to them on a daily basis.

People need to seriously wake the fuck up and they need to stop waiting for some leader to show them how. It is and has always been an individual realization based on a real love of truth.

They are brave, but there's a difference (4, Interesting)

Quila (201335) | more than 2 years ago | (#38141494)

The blacks and Tank Man couldn't be sure the government wouldn't kill them on purpose. They faced down the very real threat of death for participating in their movements.

For the OWS movement, any deaths caused by the government will be accidental.

Re:They are brave, but there's a difference (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38141588)

Spot on observation. There is no comparison.

Re:They are brave, but there's a difference (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38141608)

Yeah, I'm sure that when people are getting their asses kicked by the government, they'll be comforted by the fact that any deaths will be "accidental". This is why shit is bad and getting worse. People like you that just don't give a shit. Enjoy your SUV, 2.1 kids, and your house in the suburbs while you can.

Re:They are brave, but there's a difference (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38141632)

Enjoy your SUV, 2.1 kids, and your house in the suburbs while you can.

I'm so glad you're concerned about my enjoyment of life. I appreciate that.

Re:They are brave, but there's a difference (1)

causality (777677) | more than 2 years ago | (#38141950)

Enjoy your SUV, 2.1 kids, and your house in the suburbs while you can.

I'm so glad you're concerned about my enjoyment of life. I appreciate that.

Are you concerned about the "while you can" part of that? Because if you take a hard look at the USA you will conclude that this is what a nation on the decline looks like. Want to review the most common failure mode of a collapsing nation? It's not irreversible yet. There is still a lot of room for apathy before that happens.

Re:They are brave, but there's a difference (1)

Hartree (191324) | more than 2 years ago | (#38141936)

" This is why shit is bad and getting worse."

So...

It's all the people like him that can see the difference that are at fault? Geez. He didn't even disagree that they were brave.

And, presumably, the solution is people like you who think this is the same as what happened during the 60s civil rights movement, or like those shot in Tiananmen?

Ok...

I've been both pepper sprayed at point blank and tear gassed far more heavily than any open air use of it. It sucks. It hurts. Badly. It's hard to breath and burns like hell. If you've got existing breathing problems it can be quite dangerous.

It doesn't compare to getting shot.

Trying to compare it to getting shot just weakens the reaction of the public to it.

Show it for what it is, and you'll do better rather than trying to enhance it.

The people seeing it are not complete fools, no matter how many times you've told yourselves they are brainless dupes. They can judge it for themselves.

Re:They are brave, but there's a difference (4, Insightful)

Riceballsan (816702) | more than 2 years ago | (#38141630)

True, but accidental in a horrendous way. "We only intended to hurt him by bashing his head into the pavement with the club, we had no intention of killing him". I agree the death toll will be negligible if it even exists, but at least a few people have taken some serious beatings that could cause permanent damage

Re:They are brave, but there's a difference (0)

bonkeydcow (1186443) | more than 2 years ago | (#38141894)

Not enough. If pooping in public is your idea of a protest, you need your head bashed.

Re:They are brave, but there's a difference (4, Insightful)

Nadaka (224565) | more than 2 years ago | (#38141698)

You have far to much faith in the system. As long as this massive inequity exists these protests will continue. As long as these protests continue those in power will become increasingly forceful in suppression of freedom.

There really are Americans publicly saying that they should just roll over these protesters with tanks and shoot all the dirty hippies without any fear.

Re:They are brave, but there's a difference (0)

0123456 (636235) | more than 2 years ago | (#38141744)

You have far to much faith in the system. As long as this massive inequity exists these protests will continue. As long as these protests continue those in power will become increasingly forceful in suppression of freedom.

Well, indeed. Because the longer these 'protests' continue, the lower the Democrats' vote will be in the next election.

Re:They are brave, but there's a difference (5, Insightful)

Zaphod The 42nd (1205578) | more than 2 years ago | (#38141854)

The problem is that very clearly neither the Republican party nor the Democratic party will face these issues. They're both part of the same partisan shell-game that instills apathy and just gets more and more corrupt. Voting for either party is just a distraction, instead what is happening right now is an absolute no-confidence in government, and we need to ditch BOTH of the existing parties. Down with the two party system.

Re:They are brave, but there's a difference (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38141888)

There really are Americans publicly saying that they should just roll over these protesters with tanks and shoot all the dirty hippies without any fear.

Really? Anyone famous say that?

Re:They are brave, but there's a difference (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38141964)

As long as these protests continue those in power will become increasingly forceful in suppression of freedom.

You forget that Obama approves (how many times has he stated "distribute the wealth"?)

Re:They are brave, but there's a difference (4, Insightful)

ClintJCL (264898) | more than 2 years ago | (#38141850)

like when veterans are hit in the head with a tear gas cannister on video by a polieman firing at them while they are already on the ground receiving medical attention? Yeah, total accident.

Fuck you, and take your bullshit out the door with you.

Re:They are brave, but there's a difference (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38141864)

Kent State anyone?

Re:They are brave, but there's a difference (1)

ClintJCL (264898) | more than 2 years ago | (#38141940)

You mean like the homeless woman who miscarried after cops kicked her in the stomach while she was at an OWS protest?

Yeah, total accident.

Fuck you and the bullshit you rode in on.

InB4 (1)

oakgrove (845019) | more than 2 years ago | (#38141500)

In before "ZOMG comparing UC Davis to TankmanWTFBBQ"

Oppression is ugly and this 99 percent one percent thing isn't likely to get better and will probably get a whole lot worse in your lifetime.

Re:InB4 (1)

oakgrove (845019) | more than 2 years ago | (#38141530)

Dammit. Got beat by seconds. Stupid iPad.

Moral equivalence not withstanding (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38141524)

Morally equating the UC Davis self indulgent snivelers with the civil rights movement is really sickening. I am not sure if you are stupid or an outright racist. The only reason the kids sat there was because the cop used weak sauce pepper spray and casually doused them. Had they been up against dogs or firehouses or the police of segregated Alabama the little hippie wannabes wouldn't have shown up.
As for the argument that cops used excessive force, the video proves they didn't. The protestors got sprayed with something that did not effect them, it wasn't like each one of them got the full don't tase me bro treatment.

Re:Moral equivalence not withstanding (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38141572)

I'd +1 this if I could.

Re:Moral equivalence not withstanding (-1, Flamebait)

jpapon (1877296) | more than 2 years ago | (#38141646)

I'd +1 punch you in the face if you weren't an anonymous coward.

Re:Moral equivalence not withstanding (1)

imgumbydamnit (730663) | more than 2 years ago | (#38141914)

One AC +1 to another AC? I call sock puppet.

Re:Moral equivalence not withstanding (4, Insightful)

jpapon (1877296) | more than 2 years ago | (#38141598)

because the cop used weak sauce pepper spray and casually doused them

Cops shouldn't be "casually dousing" any group of students assembled in a park, no matter how "weak sauce" the pepper spray is. Perhaps the resulting video was a little melodramatic, but the fact that you think it is okay for police to pepper spray citizens in a park shows you for the fascist that you really are. I hope you enjoy your anonymity, you pig.

Re:Moral equivalence not withstanding (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38141680)

I hope you enjoy your anonymity, you pig.

Why do you hope I enjoy it? I'd think that you would hope that my anonymity would bring me pain and suffering, since you obviously hate me so much.

Re:Moral equivalence not withstanding (0)

jpapon (1877296) | more than 2 years ago | (#38141756)

Indeed, I would imagine that, as someone who supports the pepper-spraying of protesters, you would think that.

Re:Moral equivalence not withstanding (1)

stanlyb (1839382) | more than 2 years ago | (#38141616)

Yep, it is shame that we are not born some 200 years ago, when only the real men could stand the inquisition. or some 2000 years ago, when you could be crucified for your believes. Silly us, silly times, silly people, not like you, the real man. At least, i hope you have some sense of humor. Maybe.

Re:Moral equivalence not withstanding (5, Insightful)

Professr3 (670356) | more than 2 years ago | (#38141908)

If you consider pepper spray to be "weaksauce", there are a few people who were still coughing up blood 45 minutes afterward who'd like to have a word with you. There are a few marines who might want to tell you about their war veteran friend who was shot in the head and almost killed, while the police tossed concussion grenades at the people trying to get him to medical care. The fact that the methods used "aren't as bad as X" doesn't make them any less heinous.

of course, a little less moving... (-1, Troll)

argStyopa (232550) | more than 2 years ago | (#38141550)

The bathos of it becomes apparent when you realize the OWS protesters live in $300,000 homes or $1500/month apartments, have been oversupplied with everything they could possibly want (quick- count how many $400 cell phones are in that picture, $100 pieces of clothing, or people with $3000 laptops. Hell, how many of those POOR kids are drinking $5 cups of coffee?) or are raging because, having accumulated massive amounts of debt getting educations of little actual value, they now suddenly realize that they actually might be held responsible for their shitty self-choices or a basic heedlessness that "good times don't go on forever"?

My goodness, the tears- how they flow!

Sure, compare a bunch of spoiled, whiny hypocritical narcissists to civil rights people standing up for basic human rights, or some guy standing alone against a TANK.

Yeah, we're pretty much in the end days.

Re:of course, a little less moving... (2)

RazzleFrog (537054) | more than 2 years ago | (#38141704)

Gandhi came from a wealth family, too. Their background and (sometimes flawed) methods doesn't change the validity of their complaint.

Re:of course, a little less moving... (1)

Torodung (31985) | more than 2 years ago | (#38141882)

Gandhi did his work in homespun cloth to protest colonial British industry. Despite the fact that he could have chosen otherwise, he forsook all the benefits of his wealthy pedigree.

It most certainly does change the validity of their complaints, from the context you've provided, if they continue to reap the "benefits" of the system they purport to oppose while they protest.

In short: Gandhi they ain't.

Re:of course, a little less moving... (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38141714)

I'm sick of this crap meme of that because they aren't dirt poor they have no right to proest.

BULLSHIT.

The government has been bought up by the super-rich corporate types. Democracy has been stolen. The legislation that gets passed gets bastardized by lobby groups that are funded by the super wealthy.

We all have a right to be royally pissed and should be out protesting. We have a democracy to take back. The poor AND the middle classes have a stake in this. Fuck off with your divisive rant and get out there and help for fuck sake.

The bigger these protests get the more brutal the state will become. Yes, there is a fair comparison between the current protest and those in more oppressive regimes and times.

Re:of course, a little less moving... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38142006)

I think the argument, on that tack, has always been not that they "don't have the right the protest," but that they don't understand what they're protesting, that the movement is created and enabled by what they are protesting, and that by continuing such rampant consumerism, they are only perpetuating the very system that they hope to overturn.

Essentially, the argument is that these are the children of Mammon protesting the Church of Mammon, and I've yet to see it properly refuted. The only riposte I've seen is the rapid erection of a straw man of "not having the right to protest." It's not about their rights, it's about their wisdom and effectiveness. I don't see how these children of privilege won't get burned to the ground along with the Church of Mammon should the actual revolution come.

"educations of little actual value" (1)

TheEmperorOfSlashdot (1830272) | more than 2 years ago | (#38141750)

You don't have a lot of real-world experience, do you? Incidentally, everything you said about "$3000 laptops" and "$400 smartphones" and "$5 cups of coffee" is both false and irrelevant.

Re:of course, a little less moving... (3, Informative)

Riceballsan (816702) | more than 2 years ago | (#38141848)

Some not all, actually if I recall there was sort of an unofficial line with wealthier people on one side, and less wealthy on another, another thing to note, not everyone with a $400 phone is a self entitled ass, many OWS protestors are fresh college graduates (IE people who have racked up enough student loan debt to keep them in a position of paying off loans until there 40's IF they actually can get something better then a minimum wage job). I don't know the origin of the quote but someone said "I am angry with the previous generation, they continued to push me saying if I didn't go to college, study and keep my grades up I would wind up working at McDonalds, now that I've done all those things and acquired $15,000 of debt, they now say I'm a self entitled jerk because I don't want to work at McDonalds. In other words many of the protestors are just off of the free ride, last point where parents cover you, and hit the point where everything they have worked hard for, they finally could be independent, but the economy and job market are in such chaos, they have nowhere to go but down.

Re:of course, a little less moving... (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38141984)

Unless you make $400k per year, you aren't in the 1%. The 1% (and the stupid, like yourself) are trying to divide the 99% by pointing out the obvious fact that there's diversity within that 99%. Yeah, I was in that 99% with $200k per year income and a $500,000 house. And I was in a better place to protest the 1% than many other 99% who have to work or they won't eat that day.

Ooooo, Infamy. (2)

Culture20 (968837) | more than 2 years ago | (#38141554)

You inflict pain, I inflict infamy.

That's nice. I will never meet or deal with the police officer who maced those protesters. I've already forgotten his name. When 90% of the population sees these things, they think "huh, sucks to be them. glad they're out there fighting the good fight and not me. What's for dinner?" When the sadists and psychopaths see them, they say to themselves "wow, they take the punishment and stay put for more."

Re:Ooooo, Infamy. (1)

TheGratefulNet (143330) | more than 2 years ago | (#38141684)

his name is, now, and forever shall be, sargent pepper

and I hope he has a problematic life for the rest of his life, too. I hope he can't get a job or gets made fun of by 'the other bullies in blue' until he dies.

his type is what is wrong with america.

Re:Ooooo, Infamy. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38141804)

So then REMEMBER HIS NAME! And I don't mean you must be taking literal notes all day long, but crap, don't just let this go unnoticed! Then maybe it would be 89.99999% ' of the population sees these things, they think "huh, sucks to be them. glad they're out there fighting the good fight and not me. What's for dinner?"'

We're working towards the limit of 100% of the population to let the psychos know they can look to F each other but not us but it is one sane individual at a time.

Re:Ooooo, Infamy. (1)

Forty Two Tenfold (1134125) | more than 2 years ago | (#38141992)

"wow, they take the punishment and stay put for more."

Brutal!? You don't know the MEANING of brutal until you've heard the story of Culture Three! How brutal WAS Culture Three you ask? Culture Three was SO brutal that they maimed, tortured, enslaved, and in general brutalized...THEMSELVES!

Transparency Ought to Go Further (3, Interesting)

Phoenix666 (184391) | more than 2 years ago | (#38141556)

We all know the 1% (or "powers that be," if you prefer) are tracking us now and will continue to expand the scope and depth of how they track us.

But we in the 99% (or "little people/hoi poloi/peasants," if you prefer) have access to most of the same technology at an affordable price point. There is no technical reason we cannot track them as much or more than they can us, especially if we use our vastly superior numbers to crowd-source the most difficult part of tracking: making sense of the deluge of data.

If we repeat what we did with searching for Steve Fossett's plane using Google Earth crossed with FoldIt and SETI@home we can develop a real-time picture of exactly what the 1% are doing, where, and when. That's a tremendous amount of intelligence we can leverage in many ways.

So, for example, if we map radio transponders used by our friendly neighborhood shock troo, er, police then we can equal the spying they're already doing on peaceful protesters (Google "NYPD spying protest groups." What would they do if we knew exactly where they keep their LRAD cannons and pepper spray depots and stage sit-ins at the entrances before they can deploy? What if every single Lt. John Pike gets followed home by the protesters who surround his home, quietly sitting and linking arms?

Or, more to the point, what if we made sure that the puppet masters never have a moment's peace and that they know we all know them exactly for the scum they are?

That, I believe, is what needs to happen next to break the back of this beast.

Re:Transparency Ought to Go Further (1)

Culture20 (968837) | more than 2 years ago | (#38141656)

If we repeat what we did with searching for Steve Fossett's plane using Google Earth crossed with FoldIt and SETI@home we can develop a real-time picture of exactly what the 1% are doing, where, and when. That's a tremendous amount of intelligence we can leverage in many ways.

Don't you mean a static picture of where the 1%'s cars are at the time the Google Earth photos were taken, assuming they're even visible (wouldn't most 1%'s have access to shade for their expensive cars)? A little fun, but mostly useless.

Re:Transparency Ought to Go Further (1)

TheGratefulNet (143330) | more than 2 years ago | (#38141710)

That, I believe, is what needs to happen next to break the back of this beast.

[r]amen.

Re:Transparency Ought to Go Further (1)

JoeMerchant (803320) | more than 2 years ago | (#38141712)

If we repeat what we did with searching for Steve Fossett's plane using Google Earth crossed with FoldIt and SETI@home we can develop a real-time picture of exactly what the 1% are doing, where, and when. That's a tremendous amount of intelligence we can leverage in many ways.

Try it, get some data, publish it on the web, then tell me how long it takes you to get an injunction telling you to stop or face imprisonment. I can't tell you what the charge will be, but, rest assured, there will be something, and it will take more money than you have to fight it.

Re:Transparency Ought to Go Further (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38141946)

We all know the 1% (or "powers that be," if you prefer) are tracking us now and will continue to expand the scope and depth of how they track us.

But we in the 99% (or "little people/hoi poloi/peasants," if you prefer) have access to most of the same technology at an affordable price point. There is no technical reason we cannot track them as much or more than they can us, especially if we use our vastly superior numbers to crowd-source the most difficult part of tracking: making sense of the deluge of data.

Hm, okay, great idea. So, let's decide who the mob tracks, shall we? The top 1%, that's obvious. The criminals and cheats, sure, them, too. The politicians and lawyers and judges and other "undesirables"? Why not? The cop on the street who gets a bum rap because of a few very very noticeable assholes? Sure. Foodservice workers, like chefs, waiters, McDonalds drones, that sort? Hey, we don't care if you're trying to make a buck in a hard economy, food poisoning is a serious problem, so you're under constant scrutiny, including at home and on the street. Anyone who doesn't wash their hands after they use the restroom? They piss off someone, too, better keep tabs on them. That guy on the street who looked at me funny? Why not, it's not like anyone can stop me. The girl who wouldn't go out with me after what I felt were perfectly innocent advances? Pfft, that slut's probably whoring herself out for any camera she can find anyway, let's watch her all day long. That guy over there who just looks stupid and disagrees with me? All we need is some reason, I'm sure we'll come up with one after we catch him doing something embarrassing or against the will of The People...

Huh. Y'know, it's weird. Every time the tinfoils kept referring to Nineteen Eighty-Four and Big Brother and the whole idea of the evils of constant surveillance, they all probably thought it would be the government doing it. Looks like we're just a couple steps away from setting up the whole scenario for ourselves. How convenient!

One UCD Student's view (2, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38141562)

I am posting in anon-mode for reasons that will become obvious.

As terrible as police brutalty is, and as unjustified as the pepper spray incident obviously was, many of us UCD students are still not really on-board with the protesters now occupying our campus. While there are many students, a large percentage of the protesters are outsiders who have come from Berkeley, LA and further. They are camping on our lawn and drumming up support for various causes that our mildly conservative campus is not fully in support of (Davis typically serves the people from the central valley of CA). Our quad is now a mesh of ragtag tents, a pipe-frame geodesic dome, and dozens of media vans. Personally, I just want to do my homework and hopefully graduate so I can move out of california and find a job.

Is tuition high? Yes. Should taxes be more equitable? Yes. Is blasting reggae music till 11:30 PM right next to our library going to effect those changes? Probably not.

To end on a quip; protesting for the right to protest is like having sex for virginity.

Re:One UCD Student's view (-1, Troll)

TheGratefulNet (143330) | more than 2 years ago | (#38141734)

sounds like your conservative world needs a little rocking.

be grateful. you DID go there to expand your mind, didn't you? or do you want to hang in the burbs with white folks the rest of your life?

realize it now: YOU are also part of the 99%. those folks are fighting for YOU, you suburban twit.

Re:One UCD Student's view (1, Insightful)

0123456 (636235) | more than 2 years ago | (#38141768)

YOU are also part of the 99%. those folks are fighting for YOU, you suburban twit.

He is part of the 99%. The OWS hippies aren't, which is why they have to keep claiming that they are.

Re:One UCD Student's view (0)

Zaphod The 42nd (1205578) | more than 2 years ago | (#38141880)

In what way is OWS not part of the 99%? You're claiming the hippies are the top 1% earners in America?

wut?

Re:One UCD Student's view (0, Troll)

0123456 (636235) | more than 2 years ago | (#38141976)

In what way is OWS not part of the 99%? You're claiming the hippies are the top 1% earners in America?

No, they're the 1% of dedicated Marxists in America.

Re:One UCD Student's view (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38141932)

I don't appreciate being called a 'twit' but I'll respond nevertheless.

The protesters are fighting generally for a socialistic society. In Davis they veil their desires behind high tuition and police brutality but 5 minutes on the old version of the occupy wallstreet web site makes clear what their desires really are. I do not feel the need to apologize for believing in the merits of capitalism, and as part of the 99% I don't like some individual with a picket sign claiming to speak for me. I speak for myself, I vote for policy makers who represent me.

You may not like my opinion, but as long as our system remains as it is, there's not a whole lot you can do to prevent my opinion from making it to the ballot box. And that's how it should be.

Re:One UCD Student's view (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38141812)

To end on a quip; protesting for the right to protest is like having sex for virginity.

If you can think of a better way to get more virgins, I'd like to hear it!

Re:One UCD Student's view (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38141840)

While there are many students, a large percentage of the protesters are outsiders who have come from Berkeley, LA and further. They are camping on our lawn and drumming up support for various causes that our mildly conservative campus is not fully in support of (Davis typically serves the people from the central valley of CA).

To end on a quip; protesting for the right to protest is like having sex for virginity.

No, actually protesting for the right to protest is like having sex for the right to have sex (which is the exact opposite of virginity).

The equivalent sexual protest you suggest would be along the lines of two men kissing to show that it's ok for men to kiss. Maybe that wouldn't agree with your conservative campus values and maybe it wouldn't help you graduate, but the protesters are still there for a reason.

Re:One UCD Student's view (2)

petteyg359 (1847514) | more than 2 years ago | (#38141858)

Your quip is bass-ackwards.

Doing M for M
is like
Doing A for Z

You're comparing two like things and saying they're the same as two opposing things. If you're really a UCD student, you need to go talk to your advisor about taking some courses in basic logic.

Re:One UCD Student's view (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38142000)

At the very least, havn't you gone down there to see if any of them had some good weed?

Gandhi, King, Tank Man = the past, not the future (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38141578)

We're learning from the past. "You inflict pain; I inflict infamy" isn't new; it's making a comeback, that's all.

Tiananmen Square not a good example (1)

Wyatt Earp (1029) | more than 2 years ago | (#38141594)

Tiananmen Square protests really didn't do anything for civil rights in the People's Republic of China, while the US Civil Rights movement did change things, the Occupy movement doesn't really have a tangible goal that is achievable in the short term.

Re:Tiananmen Square not a good example (2)

dargaud (518470) | more than 2 years ago | (#38141788)

the Occupy movement doesn't really have a tangible goal that is achievable in the short term

Pray tell me why taxing Wall St transactions should be an unachievable goal ?

Re:Tiananmen Square not a good example (1)

Wyatt Earp (1029) | more than 2 years ago | (#38141938)

That is their goal now? I thought their goals were "looser and more localized".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupy_Wall_Street#Goals [wikipedia.org]

http://freenetworkmovement.org/commons/index.php?title=Liberty_Square_Blueprint [freenetworkmovement.org]

http://freenetworkmovement.org/commons/index.php?title=Liberty_Square_Blueprint#List_of_Goals_and_Corollary_Actions [freenetworkmovement.org]

Nothing about taxing Wall Street transactions.

Re:Tiananmen Square not a good example (5, Insightful)

TheGratefulNet (143330) | more than 2 years ago | (#38141822)

oh, you are so wrong!

one very real thing that got accomplished: the world is seeing a new side of america.

for the last 10+ yrs, america was the brunt of jokes and the poster child for anti-freedom in major world powers. we invaded, we killed, we were mercenaries for oil and big business. to be called 'an american' by someone overseas was getting to be an insult.

things have now changed. or, are in change.

overseas, I sense people are cheering us on. they see that its our LEADERS that are fucking us over. americans are not evil to the core (like many seem to want to believe and label us) but we, like so many other countries, have lost the war of control over our own government. but we are at least trying to get it back.

the world is starting to give us a little tiny bit of credit for that. and they are showing support in their OWN occupy protests! that's proof, right there.

we are [re]spreading freedom. from the bottom-up. and 'they' see that. it won't do a damned thing now; but we are planting seeds. the kids today who see this MAY think twice when its their turn to run things.

I expect zero things to change in my lifetime. I'm old. but I'm somewhat hopeful about the future (for you guys) given this refreshing new spirit I'm seeing.

Re:Tiananmen Square not a good example (1)

Wyatt Earp (1029) | more than 2 years ago | (#38141958)

People saw this side of America in the 1960s and 70s, when the movements actually had goals, coherent demands and focus, even when the goals were way outside the American mainstream.

The current Occupy movement is just like the Tea Baggers, a group of entitled middle-class whining about how bad things are and really doing nothing to fix the problems.

What the Davis protest looked like to me (1, Flamebait)

istartedi (132515) | more than 2 years ago | (#38141610)

I almost immediately thought that it looked like the cops were fertilizing the tree of liberty.

There's a good idea there for a political cartoon, if it hasn't been done already.

At least, we hope it's the tree of liberty and not just weeds; but it's certainly something.

Re:What the Davis protest looked like to me (1)

TheGratefulNet (143330) | more than 2 years ago | (#38141860)

I almost immediately thought that it looked like the cops were fertilizing the tree of liberty.

its freedom, trickling down.

Big brother? (1)

Conspiracy_Of_Doves (236787) | more than 2 years ago | (#38141622)

Can big brother withstand the onslaught of a hundred thousand little brothers?

I remember a comic book put out by Omni Magazine about a guy who took down criminals and dictators by walking into their headquarters and declaring their reign of power over. He was followed by thousands of tiny flying webcams being remote controlled by random people all over the world. I could honestly see something like that happening sometime soon.

Re:Big brother? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38141966)

Can big brother withstand the onslaught of a hundred thousand little brothers?

I remember a comic book put out by Omni Magazine about a guy who took down criminals and dictators by walking into their headquarters and declaring their reign of power over. He was followed by thousands of tiny flying webcams being remote controlled by random people all over the world. I could honestly see something like that happening sometime soon.

Big Brother used 1984 as his playbook. Little Brother [craphound.com] has a playbook too, in the form of a hard SF novel set in near-future Northern California.

Panopticon? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38141642)

What, is there an Occupy Gallifrey movement now?

Video bites are no better than sound bites (4, Insightful)

DerekLyons (302214) | more than 2 years ago | (#38141662)

From the summary:

"'What's new is that now the perception war occurs simultaneously with the physical struggle. There's almost parity,' writes Andrew Sprung. 'You have a truncheon or gun, I have a camera. You inflict pain, I inflict infamy.'"

No, what you inflict is spin - because all you have to is show a carefully focused video showing the police swinging their truncheons or spraying pepper spray, and those who believe video bites represent the entire truth will defend your interpretation, and forward it, and 'like' it, etc... You'll hang 'em in the court of public opinion, but that's much more important than reality.

Re:Video bites are no better than sound bites (2)

marcosdumay (620877) | more than 2 years ago | (#38141982)

You mean that, before the policeman took a while showing the spray can to the people, and spayed them on the eyes, without any display of violence from their part, something important happened that is not displayed on the video?

Would you care to tell what is that important part of the truth that isn't represented on the video? I mean, how can the policeman be threatened if during the entire video there wasn't a single threatening movement from the students?

Tiananmen Square (-1, Troll)

0123456 (636235) | more than 2 years ago | (#38141692)

The funny part is that the OWS hippies are protesting because they want to impose the very kind of government which rolls tanks over protestors like that.

Re:Tiananmen Square (3, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38141868)

[citation needed]

Last I heard nobody is rolling tanks over protestors in Sweden or Denmark, to name two mixed capitalist-socialist countries of the sort most OWS protestors tend to favor as a model for a more equitable society. Stop believing the crap you're hearing in your echo chamber. The rank-and-file OWS protestor is no more a Mao-loving communist than the rank-and-file tea party protestor is a redneck racist.

Re:Tiananmen Square (1)

Zaphod The 42nd (1205578) | more than 2 years ago | (#38141898)

Parent is illogical.
Makes no sense! [llnwd.net]

Panopticon society which lies, even to itself. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38141694)

They were told to escalate and to be prepared for the pepper spray so they could get just these optics. And comparing it to the Civil Rights movement or the guy at Tienanmen Square is disingenuous and the preferred liberal chamber echo. Obama's Brats are acting just the way the little snowflakes were raised by the liberal democrat schools. And surprise, surprise a college degree (Which YOU did SIGN the LOAN papers for knowing the PAYBACK rules) doesn't guarantee you get the best parking spot and $200,000 a year right out of school. So encouraged by these same democrats, main stream media, and union agitators they throw a fit. Get pepper sprayed on camera, beat opposition over the head with it. This is what really happened.

Oh Hum (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38141722)

In twenty years, the young protesters will be in the board rooms that they now protest. Been there, done that. Long live the 60's

Infamy ? Only ?!? (1)

dargaud (518470) | more than 2 years ago | (#38141724)

Infamy ? It should be worse than that, like years in jail. But I'll go with infamy: I have a cousin who's a cop. I haven't been in touch with him in the last decade or so, but if I ever saw him on youtube do one tenth of what that asshole cop did, you can bet your ass I'd be insulting him on the phone right now, AND I'd be calling everyone in the family to make sure they know what an criminal asshole he is. I don't understand how asshole cops like this can live over this.

panopticon (2, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38141770)

The pervasive presence of cameras does not, by itself make a panipticon. The theory of the Panopticon is that the prisoners self regulate behavior because they are unaware of whether they are being observed, because the guard in the tower is hidden. While omnicient surveilance is a big concern, it is more often the visible presence of police at protests that keep people's behavior controlled.

The interesting thing about this is that protestors' behavior is more beholden to their chosen audince than the authority figures. There are a mass of bystanders who could obviously physically step in and stop the cop from spraying their freinds. Its easy to do, but protestors are performing an act of nonviolence and no one wants to deviate from that performance.

Father Shot History That Looks More Than Current (4, Interesting)

InitZero (14837) | more than 2 years ago | (#38141774)

My father was a college student and newspaper photographer in Ohio circa May 1970. His photos of student protest and civil disobedience [capecentralhigh.com] remind me of what I'm seeing with the Occupy movement.

A year or more ago, I commented that I didn't think the Tea Party would have a long-term affect because they weren't motivated enough to burn down an ROTC building nor were the police scared enough of them to hit them with tear gas.

Agree with them or not. Understand them or not. The Occupy movement is going to leave a mark upon this country because they are willing to have skin in the game.

Cheers, Matt

So... (1)

Nrrqshrr (1879148) | more than 2 years ago | (#38141826)

They can't leave the square, or they will look like losers. The police can't let them hang around, or they will look like losers.....

We'r in for a looooong ride.

Yuo fai7 1t. (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38141856)

WillZ recall that it

Fuck your rights! (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38141942)

Fuck your rights, hippies!

America First. You don't like it? Move to communist gookistan and bitch about your "universal human rights", see how your comrades in Marx support your struggle for equality of the naturally unequal.

COMMUNISM IS A DISEASE.

Sheep for Vegetarianism (2)

Stirling Newberry (848268) | more than 2 years ago | (#38141972)

In the present, police departments are already arresting people for video tapping them. [kdvr.com]
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