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Microsoft Can Remotely Kill Purchased Apps

samzenpus posted more than 2 years ago | from the killing-distance dept.

Microsoft 389

Meshach writes "The terms of service for Microsoft's newly launched Windows Store allows the seller to remotely kill or remove access to a user's apps for security or legal reasons. The story also notes that MS states purchasers are responsible for backing up the data that you store in apps that you acquire via the Windows Store, including content you upload using those apps. If the Windows Store, an app, or any content is changed or discontinued, your data could be deleted or you may not be able to retrieve data you have stored."

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389 comments

doubt it (5, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38311212)

I doubt the three people who own one of these devices reads slashdot.

Re:doubt it (0, Flamebait)

Gaygirlie (1657131) | more than 2 years ago | (#38311354)

I doubt the three braincells you have are working to their fullest: this isn't talking about devices, it's talking about Windows Store. Besides, there isn't any device out there yet that has Windows Store installed as the store isn't even finished yet. Windows Phone Marketplace is an entirely different thing, too.

Re:doubt it (0)

tepples (727027) | more than 2 years ago | (#38311532)

Windows Phone Marketplace is an entirely different thing, too.

I'd like to see your evidence for this.

Re:doubt it (2, Informative)

DeathFromSomewhere (940915) | more than 2 years ago | (#38311646)

They have made no announcement that apps bought in one store will allow a download in the other. It seems safe to assume they aren't the same thing since WP7 apps won't run on windows 8 without some (minor) changes.

Re:doubt it (5, Interesting)

tepples (727027) | more than 2 years ago | (#38311690)

Then they'd be no more different than the iOS App Store is from the Mac App Store. Those have roughly the same rules and the same pricing ($99 per year plus 30% of revenue), with one difference: in Mac OS X 10.7 you still don't have to jailbreak or join the developer program to run your own software on your own machine. Microsoft has indicated that the Windows Store will be the only way to obtain Metro Style apps; this probably means that joining the developer program (required for sideloading) will likewise cost money.

Re:doubt it (3, Insightful)

DeathFromSomewhere (940915) | more than 2 years ago | (#38311722)

They have said that the only way to get metro style apps is through the store, but I don't think a developer unlock will be required to run apps that you have the source for. It would kill the point of visual studio express.

Re:doubt it (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38311750)

holy shit you're a beast.

don't click her link, fellas.

Re:doubt it (5, Insightful)

forkfail (228161) | more than 2 years ago | (#38311450)

The app store isn't just for Windows Mobile. It's for all of Windows 8. Which means that the summary missed the big ramification: as of Windows 8, you will absolutely no longer exclusively have root for your hardware.

And I'm guessing that the majority of folks here have at least one windows box.

I have several. (5, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38311652)

And I'm guessing that the majority of folks here have at least one windows box.

I have several. The flowers love the sun and the heat from the house keeps them from perishing on those freak cold spring nights.

Oh, and I definitely ... (5, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38311676)

have root access to them.

Re:doubt it (4, Funny)

TheGratefulNet (143330) | more than 2 years ago | (#38311674)

And I'm guessing that the majority of folks here have at least one windows box.

but the blackhats have a lot more than one.

oh, you didn't mean that, did you?

Re:doubt it (5, Insightful)

nomel (244635) | more than 2 years ago | (#38311684)

Nobody will be forcing anyone to use metro or buy any of the walled garden metro apps. It's just a program that lets you run the sandboxed metro apps. Close it or boot into the standard desktop. Most metro apps will support windows mobile devices and the desktop.

To the vast majority of users that download and try all the free apps they can click on and who don't know or care about any of this, being able to fix a "my phone is infected and doesn't work!" type scenarios is absolutely a feature.

Also, I doubt any os provider will want to be in the spotlight for causing mass network outages after some trojan decides to activate on 100,000 phones, with no way to stop it.

Re:doubt it (1)

Artea (2527062) | more than 2 years ago | (#38311734)

Did the shelf life of XP and 7 just increase? I remember when Windows 7 was just coming on the horizon of release, Microsoft pushed "Buy Vista now, upgrade to 7 for free when it comes out!" - They did it for Office 2010 as well. Chances are if they do this offering again with Windows 8, a lot of end-users will be unwittingly hooking into the Microsoft cloud.

Re:doubt it (2, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38311760)

Happy to be a minority in this... I started using my old Windows comp as a doorstop years ago...then I upgraded my door so it lost its purpose...I tried to use it as a birdhouse but poor things were rightfully afraid of it...I think the average size of a bird's brain is wildly underestimated...OR...they're Mac users...^ - ^

Re:doubt it (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38311794)

I have several. Interestingly, large amounts of software got installed without the aid of the Windows store, much like the applications on the Macs that I support. The software came in many different ways, but mainly through the optical drive that wad standard equipment in all of them. Funny how that works, right?
But seriously, how is this different than Apple's app store or Google's app store or Blackberry's app store or ?

And? (5, Insightful)

masternerdguy (2468142) | more than 2 years ago | (#38311222)

So can apple.

Re:And? (4, Informative)

InsightIn140Bytes (2522112) | more than 2 years ago | (#38311272)

And Google for Android too. They've used it before to kill malware apps. It's a good feature to have, exactly for that reason.

Re:And? (4, Informative)

mjwx (966435) | more than 2 years ago | (#38311390)

And Google for Android too. They've used it before to kill malware apps. It's a good feature to have, exactly for that reason.

The difference is,

1) you are not 100% reliant and bound to Google for Applications, if you find their "controls" (mocking voice and air-quote) too restrictive, you can simply select "allow unkown sources".

2) Google are yet to use it to pull an application for offending their sensibilities or competes with them, unlike Apple.

Re:And? (3, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38311436)

Apple has never remotely killed an app. Google and Amazon have. Apple has removed apps from their store, but that's not the same thing.

Re:And? (1, Interesting)

InsightIn140Bytes (2522112) | more than 2 years ago | (#38311442)

You can't allow unknown sources with all Android phones. Some operators also lock that feature out, so you have to jailbreak it. Which is the same situation for iPhone. For Windows phones, there's an $5 app that does let you run any app you want.

AT&T relented; adb install (1)

tepples (727027) | more than 2 years ago | (#38311604)

Some operators also lock that feature out

Which? AT&T relented on this half a year ago [tgdaily.com] in response to overwhelming customer demand for Amazon Appstore and issued a firmware update reenabling "Unknown sources".

so you have to jailbreak it

Even on devices that have no "Unknown sources" checkbox, a user can still connect the phone to a PC with a micro-USB cable and sideload with adb install or with a GUI wrapper around adb install. Google requires that a device let the end user access to Android Debug Bridge before Google will allow the device's manufacturer to install the Android Market application. You just can't run other app stores like AppsLib, Amazon, Soc.io, and SlideME without the checkbox.

For Windows phones, there's an $5 app that does let you run any app you want.

Does it expire, or does it work for the useful life of the phone?

What difference? (1)

SuperKendall (25149) | more than 2 years ago | (#38311464)

1) you are not 100% reliant and bound to Google for Applications, if you find their "controls" (mocking voice and air-quote) too restrictive, you can simply select "allow unkown sources".

Or jailbreak or sideload. Just as approachable for the technical user (actually a little easier for non-technical people on the iPhone because there's a cottage industry around Jailbreaking).

Also on the iPhone, you are slightly better off since there's a centralized non-Apple store - Cydia.

Google are yet to use it to pull an application for offending their sensibilities or competes with them, unlike Apple.

Unless you want to write gambling or porn apps, which Google does not [android.com] allow.

Apple also allows apps that compete with them, they start to get picky when there are too many applications in the same space.

Re:What difference? (2)

Rennt (582550) | more than 2 years ago | (#38311724)

Also on the iPhone, you are slightly better off since there's a centralized non-Apple store - Cydia.

Better off? Do you realize that there are a whole range of non-Google stores available for Android (ranging from strictly OSS to strictly warez), and that many of them are installable directly from Google's market without even requiring root?

Re:And? (1)

forkfail (228161) | more than 2 years ago | (#38311478)

Of course, Android doesn't run on your desktop.

From TFA:

Microsoft unveiled an app store for Windows 8 apps, on Tuesday. The key ingredients of the Windows Store are easy app discovery from within and without the online marketplace, built-in app trials with quick upgrade paths, support for both x86 and ARM-based hardware, and a flexible business model, Microsoft's Antoine Leblond said then.

"In cases where we remove a paid app from your Windows 8 Beta device not at your direction, we may refund to you the amount you paid for the license," Microsoft added. "Some apps may also stop working if you update or change your Windows 8 Beta device, or if you attempt to use those apps on a Windows 8 Beta device with different features or processor type. You are responsible for backing up the data that you store in apps that you acquire via the Windows Store, including content you upload using those apps. If the Windows Store, an app, or any content is changed or discontinued, your data could be deleted or you may not be able to retrieve data you have stored. We have no obligation to return data to you. If sign in information or other data is stored with an expiration date, we may also delete the data as of that date."

Honeycomb, Honeycomb, me want Honeycomb (1)

tepples (727027) | more than 2 years ago | (#38311632)

Android doesn't run on your desktop.

True, I don't have the x86 port of Android 3.2 [android-x86.org] installed in VirtualBox on my desktop PC. (Nor can it run ARM-specific NDK apps.) But I can install it if me want [youtube.com].

Re:And? (3, Interesting)

bluemonq (812827) | more than 2 years ago | (#38311626)

1) For $9 ChevronWP7 provides an officially sanctioned tool to root your Windows Phone. It's not $0 like Android, but at least easy to do and isn't disabled at on a whim by Microsoft, unlike how Apple treats jailbreaking. Yes, jailbreaking is legal, but nothing in the law says Apple has to make it easy -- so they don't.

2) Apple has yet to remote pull anything.

Re:And? (5, Funny)

obarthelemy (160321) | more than 2 years ago | (#38311502)

That's it. Since Phone apps are at the whim of the provider, I'm moving all my stuff to the cloud !

Re:And? (1)

plopez (54068) | more than 2 years ago | (#38311564)

Darn. Wonderfully sarcastic, but topical in light of the recent "Is Your Data Safe in the Cloud" topic on /.. I wish I could mod you up.

Re:And? (2)

cheekyjohnson (1873388) | more than 2 years ago | (#38311280)

And... I think it's still idiotic no matter who is able to do it. "Company X is doing it too!" isn't a good way to defense the practice, in my opinion.

Re:And? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38311292)

Where do you think Microsoft got the idea. For the store, the terms, the product, the interface...

Re:And? (2, Insightful)

InsightIn140Bytes (2522112) | more than 2 years ago | (#38311336)

Windows phone interfaces (and Windows 8 tablet mode) is actually wildly different from iPhone. Android is copying iPhone more than Microsoft. WP7 interface is actually quite cool, and even better than iPhone.

Re:And? (1)

masternerdguy (2468142) | more than 2 years ago | (#38311342)

Is it one of those "LCARS inspired" abominations?

Re:And? (2)

tepples (727027) | more than 2 years ago | (#38311650)

LCARS-inspired != abomination. Do you want me to draw you an LCARS-inspired interface with more traditional colors, so that the parallels between LCARS and ordinary GUIs become easier to see?

"And" ? what "and" ? This is the egg jobs laid (2, Insightful)

unity100 (970058) | more than 2 years ago | (#38311366)

Control as opposed to freedom. Apple had engaged in jailing its users, and made exorbitant amounts of money over it, and all corps are now following suit.

When jobs died, we discussed this at length. Many of us told that he set a very very harmful trend with apple, and because of the success that model had with milking the customers, ALL corporations would naturally follow suit. A lot of people objected.

............

And lo. Microsoft happily is following suit.

Re:"And" ? what "and" ? This is the egg jobs laid (5, Informative)

flosofl (626809) | more than 2 years ago | (#38311422)

That may be the case, but I've never had Apple yank an app from my iPhone. Even an app that I purchased that Apple subsequently removed from the store for "violations". Still have it and I used it many many times since it was no longer "legit".

I have had Amazon delete a book I was in the middle of right off my Kindle (not in mid-read, when the kindle went to sleep). They did refund me, but that's not quite the point is it Amazon?

Re:"And" ? what "and" ? This is the egg jobs laid (1)

unity100 (970058) | more than 2 years ago | (#38311446)

I've never had Apple yank an app from my iPhone

yet.

microsoft is taking the control mania one step away. if they get away with it, and make good money in meantime, you can bet that not only apple but others will start doing the same, citing 'industry standard practice'.

Re:"And" ? what "and" ? This is the egg jobs laid (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38311620)

Do i detect some fanboysim? you must own a mac..

Re:"And" ? what "and" ? This is the egg jobs laid (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38311780)

Was this 1984? They supposedly gave it back to you. If this happened on a book other than 1984, let us know. I agree their action was unacceptable.

Re:"And" ? what "and" ? This is the egg jobs laid (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38311798)

You have an app that Apple removed from the App store AND had a book deleted from your Kindle by Amazon. It is only a matter of time before Homeland Security comes after you, you degenerate.

Re:And? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38311550)

Yeah, that's it. Point the finger 'cause that makes it all better. You thought it was your computer? GTFO, pilgrim.

Re:And? (5, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38311696)

And? So can apple.

On one hand, that is so off-topic that you and all the people modding you should be ashamed.

A SELLER of apps on the Apple store CAN NOT cause their app to be removed. At all.

Apple can. The seller CAN NOT.

Of course Microsoft can. The point here that you completely missed is that individual sellers using the store now have this ability.

As an iApp developer, I simply do NOT have any ability to do as you imply and remove an app from anyone's device but my own.
Only Apple can do that.

So you are all of wrong, off topic, mistaken, and completely missing the point.

Unfortunate... (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38311228)

I was ready to spend a month's pay for a Win8 phone because of its design, but not being in full control of the phone just kills that idea.
I don't know what I was expecting from Microsoft though...

Re:Unfortunate... (1)

nschubach (922175) | more than 2 years ago | (#38311258)

If it takes you a month's pay to buy a gadget... it's probably money best spent elsewhere.

Re:Unfortunate... (1)

InsightIn140Bytes (2522112) | more than 2 years ago | (#38311288)

In some places normal wage is $200-300 a month. I suspect it will be in US too once globalisation and troubles with dollar and euro really start to kick in.

Re:Unfortunate... (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38311338)

I am on a sabbatical you insensitive clod.

NSA Key of Yore (1, Flamebait)

cosm (1072588) | more than 2 years ago | (#38311236)

Although this is laterally related, anybody remember the proverbial NSA Key [wikipedia.org]?

Re:NSA Key of Yore (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38311468)

Anyone unfortunate enough to remember is remotely killed.

Anyhow, this is just another perk of giving others control over your data.

This better not be misused... (4, Insightful)

gman003 (1693318) | more than 2 years ago | (#38311244)

I can understand a company wanting, or needing, to provide a way to remove malware or illegal content. I can't say I fully agree with it, but I can understand the need. So the existence of such a system, in and of itself, isn't a particularly Bad Thing.

But this had better not be misused. Unless it's actively and secretly causing damage to the system (sending out spam or whatnot), it had better have a court order to be forcibly removed from users' computers. Maybe even then.

No deleting people's apps just because the seller removed it. No deleting people's apps because of some vague DMCA request. It had better be a legitimate, legally-validated removal.

I think a good way to ensure this would be that, if it is ever used, both Microsoft and the seller have to refund the cost to the user. That won't help much for free apps, but it would really help make sure regular apps aren't pulled back for no real reason.

Re:This better not be misused... (5, Insightful)

retech (1228598) | more than 2 years ago | (#38311262)

Once given you can rest assured any power will be abused.

Re:This better not be misused... (1)

gman003 (1693318) | more than 2 years ago | (#38311398)

Now, now, just because they can doesn't mean...

Ah, fuck, who am I kidding. Microsoft's inevitably going to misuse this. Anyone would. Hell, you could hand me the big remote (that's how they do it, right? Giant remote control?) and I'd probably misuse it.

You need an economic disincentive to do so, besides "it pisses off consumers and we'll lose business". "Pulled apps are refunded" is a good disincentive - at the very least, they'd have to make a lot of money by pulling an app in order to use it. That's pretty unlikely.

Re:This better not be misused... (1, Troll)

grcumb (781340) | more than 2 years ago | (#38311522)

Ah, fuck, who am I kidding. Microsoft's inevitably going to misuse this. Anyone would. Hell, you could hand me the big remote (that's how they do it, right? Giant remote control?) and I'd probably misuse it.

You need an economic disincentive to do so, besides "it pisses off consumers and we'll lose business". "Pulled apps are refunded" is a good disincentive - at the very least, they'd have to make a lot of money by pulling an app in order to use it. That's pretty unlikely.

MEGACORP: We want you to kill our competitor's app.

MICROSOFT: Ca't do that. We'd piss people off and lose revenue.

MEGACORP: How much revenue?

MICROSOFT: [Looks at spreadsheet.] Hmmm... about $20 million a year. Why?

MEGACORP: We want you to kill our competitor's app... for $25 million.

MICROSOFT: Done! [To Lackey:] Bring me The Remote.

Re:This better not be misused... (2)

davidgay (569650) | more than 2 years ago | (#38311600)

Competitor: Wow! Call the lawyers! Open the champagne! We're set for life!

At the same time, at every major lawfirm: Quick, call Competitor and ask them if they would like our services for 5% of the award!

At the same time, at Apple and consumer rights societies: Quick, issue a press release!

Re:This better not be misused... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38311470)

That's called the slippery slope fallacy. Just because it can be, doesn't mean it will.

If we followed your reasoning, no one should ever be allowed to do anything, because they'll abuse the privilege. No driving, you might do it drunk. No buying a home, you might buy one you can't afford. No talking, you might tell a lie.

"All power will be abused" is a great soundbite for anarchists, but it doesn't hold true in the real world.

Re:This better not be misused... (1)

digitig (1056110) | more than 2 years ago | (#38311608)

That's called the slippery slope fallacy. Just because it can be, doesn't mean it will.

Nope. It isn't inferring the claim that it will be abused from the fact that it can be. It doesn't actually state the basis of the inference, but a likely one is past experience.

If we followed your reasoning, no one should ever be allowed to do anything, because they'll abuse the privilege. No driving, you might do it drunk. No buying a home, you might buy one you can't afford. No talking, you might tell a lie.

"All power will be abused" is a great soundbite for anarchists, but it doesn't hold true in the real world.

No, that's your reasoning. It's not in the posting you replied to. The reasoning of the original posting might (at a push) lead to "if driving is allowed, somebody might do it drunk", "if buying a home is allowed, somebody might buy one they can't afford",. "if talking is allowed, somebody might tell a lie." No prohibition in the original, just a statement of consequences.

Re:This better not be misused... (1)

opposabledumbs (1434215) | more than 2 years ago | (#38311616)

Because in the real world their are legal sanctions against all of your examples, and real consequences if you are caught.

However, real-world issues like consequences and legal sanctions don't seem to apply to big corporations in situations like these, and there are cases of corporations using this power without good reason - Amazon and 1984 (amazingly enough), is a good example of that.

So really, this is just a case where the power is going to be abused, sooner or later, and consumers will probably have no recourse to complain.

Re:This better not be misused... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38311720)

Riiight.... because Amazon certainly didn't catch any flak over your chosen example of the 1984 erasure. No bad press, no lawsuit costing them hundreds of thousands of dollars. Yep, no consequences at all!

Re:This better not be misused... (2)

PaladinAlpha (645879) | more than 2 years ago | (#38311538)

It's completely indefensible. If they were concerned with users, then when an app was purged it would notify you, with perhaps a handy button to go ahead and kill the app. Forcibly removing the app without input is obviously meant for situations where you have something they don't want you to have, and the problem with centralized gatekeepers like this is 'they' becomes 'everyone who does business with Microsoft' which is a scary approximation of 'everyone, period'.

The paradigm is shifting, and the golden age is ending. I hope the Linux-bashers are watching, because in ten years Linux will be the only thing keeping exploratory, hobbyist, and academic computing alive.

It wouldn't bother me so much except if we really go down this road we're going to be miles behind any country that actually lets their population play with their toys. (sigh)

Re:This better not be misused... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38311800)

Since the rest of the world pretty much follows the US (with differing amounts of lag), or is it the US follows the rest of the world... Nevermind! In any case, you can rest assured that computing devices are going to get more and more locked down GLOBALLY. This was always inevitable, the moment cheap and powerful computing became possible for the masses.

Well, no real surprise. (4, Insightful)

forkfail (228161) | more than 2 years ago | (#38311260)

They're moving towards a complete lease model as opposed to ownership.

You already lease your software anyway.

This version of Windows will pretty much make you lease your hardware what with the "secure" boot for all practical purposes. And you'll be leasing any administrator access MS might grant you as well.

Re:Well, no real surprise. (2)

InsightIn140Bytes (2522112) | more than 2 years ago | (#38311328)

It's still better than using cloud services or SaaS models like Google apps. If you get whole app it still works even without internet, and since you don't have internet, they can't kill it. With cloud services they can just stop offering the service and then it's gone. It has happened to many Google products too, and they don't even announce it that much in forward. It's usually instant or at max a few months.

Re:Well, no real surprise. (1)

forkfail (228161) | more than 2 years ago | (#38311404)

Except....

The app will be gone the next time you connect. And if they use a Steam-esque approach, you may not be able to run apps without a connection.

They own your root. You no longer own that at all (though, Dell, Best Buy, etc have been holding on to that for some time anyway).

So - really - I guess that I see them turning your computer into a local mirror of the SaaS model. Just that you are running it on cores and in memory that you are for all intents and purposing leasing.

Re:Well, no real surprise. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38311458)

This version of Windows will pretty much make you lease your hardware what with the "secure" boot for all practical purposes.

Ah the standard ignorant FUD conspiracy theory, where would a story about Windows 8 be without someone harping on about how all motherboard manufacturers are for some reason going to implement secure boot and not allow it to be turned off and not allow you to install different keys despite the fact that they could lock down BIOS software to stop you booting multiple OSs now and could have for the entire history of personal computing...but of course they haven't.

Re:Well, no real surprise. (1)

forkfail (228161) | more than 2 years ago | (#38311520)

Non sequiter argument you present, at best. At worst, raw horseshit. Because never before are pre-loaded signed certificates being considered as part of the manufacturer loaded bios. And there are an awful lot of bios'es out there that have the minimum number of configurable switches in them. Manufacturers go for profit; you can bet that there will be a ton that don't have a switch, or only have room for one or two certificates.

But this has been hashed out before; MS has said screw you, we're doing it anyway. So now it's just up to folks like you to accuse the rest of the world about FUD (a term most often used to describe MS, not for MS to describe the world - very Rovian of you.)

Re:Well, no real surprise. (4, Interesting)

syousef (465911) | more than 2 years ago | (#38311610)

They're moving towards a complete lease model as opposed to ownership.

You already lease your software anyway.

This version of Windows will pretty much make you lease your hardware what with the "secure" boot for all practical purposes. And you'll be leasing any administrator access MS might grant you as well.

Actually it will push me to Linux - something I thought i'd never do. I've always used Microsoft Windows because it was the better solution - it runs more of the software I want to run (including games and graphics intensive apps) and thus gave me the most flexibility. But now Windows gaming is all but dead, all the apps have become ridiculously priced (Have you seen what Photoshop costs these days???) and now they want to control what I can run. Seeya! Don't let the door hit your arse on the way out.

The future.... (1)

joocemann (1273720) | more than 2 years ago | (#38311274)

Naive popularity will drag horrid ideas like this along for the ride as the future consolidates application control and computing into the "cloud" elements that can crap all over you if you are not getting along.

Don't buy into the hype, so we can prolong the inevitable...but in the end, dumb people will drag us off the cliff and we won't find open alternatives that function in society.
boy do I loathe the thoughtless nature of many...and how it affects my options.

What is it with this trend of hostility? (5, Insightful)

Lotana (842533) | more than 2 years ago | (#38311276)

What the hell is wrong with our IT industry and its hostility towards their users? When did this start and where did we go wrong that brought us to this state?!

Re:What is it with this trend of hostility? (4, Insightful)

forkfail (228161) | more than 2 years ago | (#38311322)

It's all about money.

A company that can control all aspects of their product reduces cost. So, if MS controls your root access, what software you can load, what you can boot, etc - they make more money because their costs are lower. And the OEM's make more money, which also flows back to MS.

It's not about hate and hostility - rather, it's about maximization of profit. And a result of this is, in the end, a less appealing product that people will accept because it's wrapped up nicely (with a bow and sexy dancing girls selling it), and because a lot of people don't [see|have] an alternative.

Re:What is it with this trend of hostility? (3, Insightful)

InsightIn140Bytes (2522112) | more than 2 years ago | (#38311370)

It's kind of sad actually, as the old Windows Mobiles always allowed you to install anything you wanted, just like the desktop Windows does. Apple can be blamed for this stuff too.

Re:What is it with this trend of hostility? (1)

forkfail (228161) | more than 2 years ago | (#38311428)

This isn't just about the mobile. This is about your desktop. The app store will be for your Windows 8 desktop. You will effectively not exclusively own root on a windows box once Windows 8 launches.

Re:What is it with this trend of hostility? (1)

InsightIn140Bytes (2522112) | more than 2 years ago | (#38311490)

I doubt they will lock the desktop OS that way. Yes, there will be app store, but you will be able to run programs normally too. Desktop is completely different beast, and companies won't put up with it if they cant run their own code or software bought elsewhere. Not all software can be put to app store either. So it will be basically like package management in Linux is.

Re:What is it with this trend of hostility? (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38311622)

A company that can control all aspects of their product reduces cost.

No, exercising control increases costs, rather than just giving it to the user do whatever they want.

if MS controls your root access

Which they don't now and don't in Windows 8.

what software you can load

How are they going to stop me from say running a keygen?

what you can boot

Which they don't.

they make more money because their costs are lower.

How do you come to the conclusion that what you listed lowers their costs?

And the OEM's make more money

How?

which also flows back to MS.

How and why? OEMs make more money so they just give it to Microsoft?

Re:What is it with this trend of hostility? (5, Insightful)

Anonymous Brave Guy (457657) | more than 2 years ago | (#38311438)

It happened when the likes of Apple, Google, Microsoft, Amazon and Facebook realised that being the owner of a walled garden (or even a slightly fenced garden) means you can do more-or-less what you like to users once you've locked them in.

A lot of people might be upset, but 97% of them won't do any more than bitch about it on Slashdot/Facebook/Reddit/whatever, and they'll still keep buying. The few who really will vote with their wallets for a more user-friendly alternative or go without products/services that come with nasty strings attached are so small in number that the big players can just ignore them.

That means the platform owners can adopt whatever abusive practices they want to make more money, short of breaking the law enough to lose a major lawsuit. And since the law everywhere is at least a decade behind the implications of modern technology, a lot of things that thoughtful geeks might consider dangerous aren't actually illegal anyway, at least not clearly so.

None of this will change until either a large consumer backlash begins (which is not beyond the bounds of possibility in the world today, but is on a gentle simmer right now) or legislation starts getting written by smart, thoughtful people who think through the implications of modern technology, understand the need to protect consumers, also understand the need to make commerce reasonably profitable, and try to come up with policies that balance these factors in a fair way (and then I woke up...).

Re:What is it with this trend of hostility? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38311472)

We need a non-pro-business supreme court and congress as well. Don't forget all of these will come with the attachment in the ToS that you can no longer sue no matter what we do to you!

Re:What is it with this trend of hostility? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38311716)

From the summary:

"The terms of service for Microsoft's newly launched Windows Store allows the seller to remotely kill or remove access to a user's apps for security or legal reasons.

Note the bit about the seller. None of the companies you list give that ability to the seller. Not Apple, not Google, not Amazon, and not Facebook.

You're ranting on about the owner of the walled garden, yet the topic at hand is SELLERS using the walled garden.

How the hell does this off topic crap get modded up? Try reading the summary for once.

Re:What is it with this trend of hostility? (5, Insightful)

bmo (77928) | more than 2 years ago | (#38311454)

What the hell is wrong with our IT industry and its hostility towards their users?

Because users are completely, utterly, stupid. At least the vast majority of them. 90 percent of people (I'm sure the statistic is higher) don't want computers. They think they want computers. What they really want are magic boxes that do magic things and don't want to worry about any kind of maintenance. Steve Jobs knew this. Microsoft is merely catching up.

And Slashdot is not representative of the "computing" public. What you want, dear Lotana, doesn't count.

--
BMO

Re:What is it with this trend of hostility? (3, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38311628)

Wanting a "magic box" that is low maintenance and does useful things, does *not* make users completely, utterly stupid. I have a car that is pretty much a magic box to me. I can drive it around but I can't fix it. I use electricity but the infrastructure that supplies it is pretty much a magic box to me. Lots of different magic boxes for different people.

Re:What is it with this trend of hostility? (1)

bmo (77928) | more than 2 years ago | (#38311648)

I suggest you speak to an actual mechanic some time.

Car owners are completely, utterly, stupid.

--
BMO

Re:What is it with this trend of hostility? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38311508)

ThinkPenguin.com

GNU/Linux is seeing and keeping more and more new users thanks to *quality* (of the operating system and associated software) AND *commercially available support*. Be it Canonical or ThinkPenguin.

Support and marketing go a long way to making free software friendly to the masses.

Re:What is it with this trend of hostility? (1)

DnaK (1306859) | more than 2 years ago | (#38311528)

Nothing, this is evident in ALL parts of culture and basically comes down to a dick waving competition.

Re:What is it with this trend of hostility? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38311590)

What is it with our users and their hostility towards our IT industry?

Some, which is to say, us, enjoy tinkering with our computers to see what we can make them really do. Most people just don't care - they want a thing that works, and don't care if they give up "freedom" to do it, because to the average user Apple / Google / Microsoft app stores aren't taking away their ability to do anything, they are instead granting it. The thing that they give up is useless to them.

Now, I enjoy watching GCC recompile itself, and I'm damn proud of the top-end job that I did on my truck motor, but you and I are corner cases, my friends.

Capcha: humbug. Get off my lawn!

Customer Service (1)

qualityassurancedept (2469696) | more than 2 years ago | (#38311330)

From a customer service point of view it would be bad to just kill user data along with the app. Enterprise level clients really aren't going to put up with that.

"the cloud" (4, Insightful)

DoninIN (115418) | more than 2 years ago | (#38311448)

The whole point of "the cloud" network computing, etc. Whatever we're calling it these days. Is that they want to keep charging us over and over for the same thing. They want us to rent everything from them. The computing platform, the phone, the device, the apps, as a result they can even own our data. Have fun with that if you want to a digital serf. You can opt not to use a lot of these gadgets, they're bad business models, and one can be a nerd without owning all those faddish gadgets.

Get off my lawn.

Windows update? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38311462)

You mean windows update couldn't do this already?

I don't see the issue (2)

msobkow (48369) | more than 2 years ago | (#38311474)

It sounds like Microsoft is just explicitly passing the buck for terminating an application to the application's vendor, not like they're trying to assume that capability and responsibility for anything, including malware cleanup. I'd think malware cleanup options would fall under the purview of the anti-virus service providers.

Note I said service provider. Like it or not, maintaining a secure system means subscribing to maintenance services for a lot of the software you need. You haven't been able to "buy" a lot of critical services for a long time. This is not a new delivery model by any stretch of the imagination.

Even Linux relies on service providers -- the distribution packagers and testers.

Oh great.... (3, Interesting)

iamhassi (659463) | more than 2 years ago | (#38311484)

I've already lived this with iTunes. I bought iFitness [appshopper.com] (more here [medicalprod.com]. During an iOS upgrade there was some sort of issue and PC backup turned out to be corrupt and couldn't restore the apps. "No problem," I thought, "I downloaded all of these apps from the store, I can just re-download everything."

Nope, despite being one of the five best fitness apps [lifehacker.com] it was pulled from the market for unknown reasons. Some claim it was banned for posting fake positive reviews, [appadvice.com] but that seems completely unnecessary considering how [mensfitness.com] much [thatsfit.com] praise [nytimes.com] iFitness [go.com] received. [washingtonpost.com]

Because of that I no longer trust my phone or the "cloud" to keep my data safe.

MS OS stable long enough to remotely kill app! (0)

kawabago (551139) | more than 2 years ago | (#38311488)

Secure Boot is already broken. A Secure Boot system will give the user the illusion that their machine is safe and they will pay dearly for it.

I'm in Ur cloud, eating Ur data (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38311518)

Muhahahaha

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