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The Undeclared "Cyber Cold War" With China

samzenpus posted more than 2 years ago | from the consider-yourself-off-my-friends-list dept.

China 260

First time accepted submitter lacaprup writes "Chinese-based hacking of 760 different corporations reflects a growing, undeclared cyber war. From giants like Intel and Google to unknowns like iBahn, the Chinese hackers are accused of stealing everything isn't nailed down. Simply put, it is easier and cheaper to steal rather than develop the legal way. China has consistently denied it has any responsibility for hacking that originated from servers on its soil, but — based on what is known of attacks from China, Russia and other countries — a declassified estimate of the value of the blueprints, chemical formulas and other material stolen from U.S. corporate computers in the last year reached almost $500 billion"

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Welcom to Shitty Wok (0, Troll)

Toe, The (545098) | more than 2 years ago | (#38374930)

Take yer data prease?

Re:Welcom to Shitty Wok (1, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38374954)

damn Mongorians!

Re:Welcom to Shitty Wok (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38375026)

What the hell man. Here is a good hard working immigrant small busines owner, providing a great service to his community, and you have to associate him with criminals, because he happens to be Chinese. What a disgusting and evil display of racism.

Re:Welcom to Shitty Wok (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38375226)

Chinese is not a race, fucktard.

Re:Welcom to Shitty Wok (1, Troll)

Nadaka (224565) | more than 2 years ago | (#38375282)

China is the Han race. They used to have a lot more diversity, but the Han have been genociding and absorbing the other races of china for a few thousand years.

Re:Welcom to Shitty Wok (2)

Trepidity (597) | more than 2 years ago | (#38375364)

If my anthropology textbook is correct, "Chinese" is a specific subgroup of the "mongoloid" or "yellow" race, actually.

I'll need to verify at the library, though; I'm a bit poor so I haven't been able to update my textbook since the 1883 edition.

Re:Welcom to Shitty Wok (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38375646)

Get over yourself you stupid fuck.

U.S. propaganda (2, Insightful)

InsightIn140Bytes (2522112) | more than 2 years ago | (#38375274)

We're seen this same shit since the 90's. Main function of it is to gain further laws in the US that makes it easier to abuse US nationals. Apart from the technical ignorance (if you were hacker, would you think of doing the connection yourself or using Chinese proxy!), US and Israel are the only countries in the world that want to use internet for sabotage. There have been numerous news about how hardly cybersabotage would hit US infrastucture, but it doesn't. It's a play to get acceptance towards U.S. doing that exact thing for nations they don't like, like Iran.

U.S. has every time shown that they ignore any good practices and just abuse when they can. I do not trust Iran any more, but since U.S. lies about their tactics too, why should I trust them either? Lieing to me makes you an asshole.

Re:U.S. propaganda (1, Troll)

PickyH3D (680158) | more than 2 years ago | (#38375562)

Yup, the US has been lying about the constant cyber attacks. Those defense contractors too.

Oh, and Google too. Those emails relating to those pesky Chinese dissidents? Hacked by the US or Israel, and not the nation that throws its own people behind the Great Firewall.

The US absolutely participates in cyber espionage, and we don't exactly hide it. We have the NSA. We also are known to have used a software bug to blow up a pipeline in Russia during the Cold War (the US knew that Russia was trying to steal said source code). And that was before it was cool.

There's something to be said about a healthy amount of skepticism, but having worked at places where this is a serious issue, I can say without a shred of doubt that you are wrong. You are the dumbest person that I have read on the internet today. Congratulations, and enjoy the Chinese propaganda machine.

PS: it's "lying."

Didn't the chinese adapt cracking from the States (5, Interesting)

Synerg1y (2169962) | more than 2 years ago | (#38374962)

Yep pretty sure us Yankees invented the concept, along w the personal computer and the internet, shame some of us are getting schooled on it, a glimpse into American decay? Or the start of a security renaissance?

Re:Didn't the chinese adapt cracking from the Stat (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38375298)

US is dead. Just look at the number of ex pats here in China and Europe... The gov has even started to charge 500 dollars to give up citizenship ...

Re:Didn't the chinese adapt cracking from the Stat (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38375550)

"US is dead."

What the hell does that mean? That's a really stupid comment.

Re:Didn't the chinese adapt cracking from the Stat (1, Insightful)

PickyH3D (680158) | more than 2 years ago | (#38375594)

Yeah, because Europe is just a thriving example of greatness right now.

Re:Didn't the chinese adapt cracking from the Stat (4, Insightful)

LordLucless (582312) | more than 2 years ago | (#38375428)

Also, patent violations were an American concept back in the day (see Hollywood). Countries (and companies) on the way up view patents as a hindrance, shackling their energy and creativity. Countries on the way down view them as a benefit, holding on to their accumulated wealth and power even once they're no longer earning it.

Re:Didn't the chinese adapt cracking from the Stat (3, Insightful)

moderatorrater (1095745) | more than 2 years ago | (#38375558)

Digital security only reached great public consciousness in the past decade and a half, after much infrastructure was already built up in the US. China is modernizing in a much more security conscious time, so they have a bit of an advantage there. The US is also further along in digitizing things (whether they should be or not), which puts them at a disadvantage.

Also, and this is probably the biggest one imho, the government has privatized everything. All other considerations aside, if you have digital and classified documents in a lot of third parties' hands, you're going to open yourself up to a lot of attack vectors. All in all, it's a nightmare thinking about keeping a network that includes every military contractor secure.

It's not a cyber cold war (4, Interesting)

Marxist Hacker 42 (638312) | more than 2 years ago | (#38374972)

It's a hot trade war, with one side believing the rules don't apply to them, and the other side letting them get away with it.

Re:It's not a cyber cold war (1)

fsckmnky (2505008) | more than 2 years ago | (#38375064)

Looks like the US gets to add $500 billion worth of tariffs to imported Chinese products now.

If only life operated on the sunny side and politicians had spines.

Re:It's not a cyber cold war (1)

Plastic Pencil (1258364) | more than 2 years ago | (#38375476)

Looks like the US gets to add $500 billion worth of tariffs to imported Chinese products now.

And that is how we get out of debt!

Either that or World War III.

Re:It's not a cyber cold war (1)

fsckmnky (2505008) | more than 2 years ago | (#38375608)

And that is how we get out of debt! Either that or World War III.

I can live with either one more readily than doing nothing and taking it UTA.

Re:It's not a cyber cold war (3, Interesting)

Plastic Pencil (1258364) | more than 2 years ago | (#38375712)

I can live with either one more readily than doing nothing and taking it UTA.

It would be pretty damn interesting if the US turned around and told China, here's a bill for piracy, if you don't pay, we don't repay our debt. And what can you do, that we haven't already done to ourselves? Check and mate, and possibly nuclear holocaust in one easy move.

But as long as Americans don't understand why they shouldn't be shopping at Walmart, consistently vote against their own interests, and are too focused on the Jersey Shore, it'll never happen.

Re:It's not a cyber cold war (4, Insightful)

Skewray (896393) | more than 2 years ago | (#38375262)

If you hang you underwear out to dry, the neighbors will see it. Same with trade secrets. In order to be protected by law, one is required to make reasonable efforts to protect trade secrets. Obviously nowadays, when $500 billion worth of trade secrets are being stolen, these trade secrets are not being adequately protected. These secrets are, in effect, out on the line in plane sight, just like the aforementioned underwear. Too bad our government is more interested in stopping movie downloads.

Re:It's not a cyber cold war (4, Insightful)

PickyH3D (680158) | more than 2 years ago | (#38375652)

What?

That's the exact same thing as saying, because your safe can be cracked, then your trade secrets that you held in it are in plain site. In other words, because someone was able to steal them, then they are not covered.

Requiring a spy to steal your details, or for you entire computer system to be hacked in certainly a reasonable-enough effort at protecting your trade secrets.

People should be stopped from illegal downloads as it is stealing, but the level of focus definitely makes no sense in comparison to other issues facing the nation. The entire entertainment industry has a nonsensical amount of power, but that does not change the lunacy of the rest of your--hopefully--sarcastic point.

Re:It's not a cyber cold war (1)

pushing-robot (1037830) | more than 2 years ago | (#38375808)

Do you work for my insurance company?

Re:It's not a cyber cold war (3, Insightful)

TWX (665546) | more than 2 years ago | (#38375464)

It's been that way for a very long time, long before computers were penetrated to gather trade secrets. For a long time the two major Communist nations in this world, the USSR and the People's Republic of China, did not have the resources to develop many advanced things. The Russians cloned our bombers that landed in Soviet territory, with the only differences being switching to metric units for things like sheetmetal gauge as opposed to SAE units. The US government tried very hard to keep particularly sensitive, new weapons out of Russia's hands during World War II, and out of China's hands during Korea and Vietnam.

Unfortunately now, we've decided to send our processes themselves to China. Since they're not interested in maintaining respect for intellectual property, we're giving them the very tools they need to best us.

In short, or own short-sighted greed is actively leading to our downfall as we speak.

Re:It's not a cyber cold war (1)

ackthpt (218170) | more than 2 years ago | (#38375798)

Serve them right if they harm the US economy and all those bonds held by Chinese banks become worthless. China isn't much without trading partners. Seems they'd recognise this and lay off.

Re:It's not a cyber cold war (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38375940)

Exactly! Reading the Foreign Affairs magazine, we have only ourselves to blame. Shame on ourselves for sticking it to our fellow citizens.

Adds a whole new meaning... (1)

forkfail (228161) | more than 2 years ago | (#38374986)

... to Chinese Gold Farmer.

The "Chinese Hacker" myth is overblown (5, Informative)

MetricT (128876) | more than 2 years ago | (#38375044)

I'm sure the Chinese government has their crack team of hackers, just like we do. Having said that...

I run a honeypot at work. 70% of the attacks do come from Chinese machines, but I suspect that's because the Chinese buy those $2 pre-hacked warez'd Windows CD's at the market and don't install security updates.

Of the actual living, breathing hackers that log into my honeypot, 1/3 of them come from Romanian IP's, and another 1/3 come from other eastern European countries, but the text files/strings in their utilities are Romanian. Wired has a good article which partly corroborates this.

      http://www.wired.com/magazine/2011/01/ff_hackerville_romania/all/1 [wired.com]

I see two modes of attack. 98% are single machines launching 100's of attacks. 70% of those are in China. The other 2% are distributed attacks. These are more likely to be major power intelligence agencies, and don't have anywhere near the geographic concentration as the single-machine attacks (Chinese IP's are 15% of distributed attacks, same as Brazil).

Re:The "Chinese Hacker" myth is overblown (1)

GameboyRMH (1153867) | more than 2 years ago | (#38375120)

Yep one day it's gonna leak that the Chinese government's cyberwarfare team consists of 30 script kiddies who spend their time DDoS'ing Taiwanese websites.

Re:The "Chinese Hacker" myth is overblown (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38375882)

Bullshit... 90% are from the US.

It's impossible to blame China (5, Insightful)

GameboyRMH (1153867) | more than 2 years ago | (#38375052)

Every black hat is probably running their operations through proxies in China these days so that the Western companies they break into will just say "damn dirty Chinese!" and never suspect someone in Europe or maybe just a few blocks away. China is a jurisdictional black hole.

Re:It's impossible to blame China (0)

forkfail (228161) | more than 2 years ago | (#38375090)

Except for the technologies that China suddenly starts producing without any real R and D into how to produce them...

Re:It's impossible to blame China (5, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38375574)

You mean technologies that China is already producing for the USA? No R and D needed when you are already doing the manufacturing.

True Story (1, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38375060)

Posting anon just to make sure i dont get yelled at.

I work for an infrared camera manufactuerer that does government work. We know that the chinese are trying to get into our servers on a daily basis.

Another True Story (1)

betterunixthanunix (980855) | more than 2 years ago | (#38375436)

It is not just the Chinese, most major world powers are engaging in corporate espionage.

Undeclared? (4, Insightful)

Oxford_Comma_Lover (1679530) | more than 2 years ago | (#38375078)

Undeclared my ass. It's in the media, it's widely known, and pretty much the only rule is not to do something to the other side's infrastructure that kills people directly or gets too much of the population upset. That's like calling the intelligence war undeclared because the sides don't admit that they try to get plans of the other side's military hardware--only more so. We don't declare war, and this isn't a physical war, and there are certain proportionality requirements--and we argue for a pretension of deniability, but not plausible deniability.

Re:Undeclared? (2)

ThatsMyNick (2004126) | more than 2 years ago | (#38375122)

Besides how do you declare a cold war? By definition you cannot declare one.

Re:Undeclared? (5, Funny)

HelioWalton (1821492) | more than 2 years ago | (#38375236)

1,2,3,4, I declare a cold war!

Re:Undeclared? (1)

royallthefourth (1564389) | more than 2 years ago | (#38375528)

Besides how do you declare a cold war?

The fact that it's "cold" means the declaration is implicit, not that no declaration exists. Dropping two atomic bombs next to the USSR was all the declaration needed.

Re:Undeclared? (2)

SJHillman (1966756) | more than 2 years ago | (#38375132)

Just because everybody knows about it doesn't mean that an official declaration was issued or had to be issued.

Re:Undeclared? (1)

forkfail (228161) | more than 2 years ago | (#38375152)

Bingo.

I call bullshit (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38375106)

Half a trillion dollars in stolen data? I'm sorry, that's fucking impossible.

Why do people have so much trouble with financial scale?

Re:I call bullshit (2)

forkfail (228161) | more than 2 years ago | (#38375218)

Did you read TFA?

Re:I call bullshit (1)

jimbolauski (882977) | more than 2 years ago | (#38375730)

500 1 million dollar R&D projects to put it into terms you can grasp. The article states that is what they got this year but the R&D is from many years so it's not that much. If the technology was from the last 10 years the amount stolen would represent 0.05% of the GDP for that period. That high rate can not be sustained and will drop off as the technology is better protected and the knowledge gap lessens.

Been there, seen that. (5, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38375128)

This is probably going to sound racist, when I don't really intend it to. It's more "culturist" than anything else.

I work for a post-secondary institution with a large international student program. Most of our international students come from China, and when we break down the stats, the Chinese students are the most likely students to plagiarize others work, both in our online learning management system and in our face to face classroom environments.

What's more, they make no effort to hide their "enhanced group work" skills from their instructors. We've asked several of the students about this behaviour and have been told "that's how things work in China. It's commonplace there."

So it doesn't surprise me that Chinese hackers are trying to steal information from western companies.

Does this surprise you? (2, Informative)

betterunixthanunix (980855) | more than 2 years ago | (#38375486)

http://www.europarl.europa.eu/sides/getDoc.do?pubRef=-//EP//NONSGML+REPORT+A5-2001-0264+0+DOC+PDF+V0//EN&language=EN [europa.eu]

TLDR: English-speaking nations around the world have conspired to use their signals intelligence capability (ECHELON) to engage in industrial espionage and pass trade secrets on to their own corporations.

Re:Been there, seen that. (4, Interesting)

c0lo (1497653) | more than 2 years ago | (#38375786)

What's more, they make no effort to hide their "enhanced group work" skills from their instructors. We've asked several of the students about this behaviour and have been told "that's how things work in China. It's commonplace there."

In regards with intellectual creation: a culture of sharing in clash with a culture of artificial scarcity?

Sucks to be on the other side of the deal, right? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38375146)

The world keeps on turning.

America is at "war", you say? (1)

Hentes (2461350) | more than 2 years ago | (#38375166)

So where is the physical retaliation you were speaking of?

$500 billion? Reality check! (3, Interesting)

DriedClexler (814907) | more than 2 years ago | (#38375202)

Stole informational assets worth $500 billion over the past year? Um, does anyone bother to do basic reality checks?

$500 billion is about 1/3 of the US's GDP for all of 2010 [cia.gov] .

So ... no, just ... just no.

Re:$500 billion? Reality check! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38375234)

Corps are looking for further tax breaks, that's all. Seeing as China makes almost everything the US uses, they already have the specs, blueprints and formula in their manufacturing plants.

Re:$500 billion? Reality check! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38375288)

I'd don't know the right figure for US GDP in 2010
  but your number is wrong but at least 1 order of magnitude

Re:$500 billion? Reality check! (1)

DriedClexler (814907) | more than 2 years ago | (#38375306)

Oops, you're right. The source said $15 Trillion. Still, that would make it 3% of GDP, and still way too high to be plausible.

Re:$500 billion? Reality check! (1)

Desler (1608317) | more than 2 years ago | (#38375358)

Why is it way too high? Cause you said so?

Re:$500 billion? Reality check! (1)

DriedClexler (814907) | more than 2 years ago | (#38375398)

Because you can't suck out an amount of value equal to the output of several large US states or countries via cyber attacks that no one really notices.

Re:$500 billion? Reality check! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38375552)

Sure you can, when the thing being "sucked out" is digital files and doesn't get removed from the original location.

Re:$500 billion? Reality check! (2)

betterunixthanunix (980855) | more than 2 years ago | (#38375576)

Good thing the money was "lost" the same way that the RIAA "lost" money from copyright infringement.

Re:$500 billion? Reality check! (2)

fsckmnky (2505008) | more than 2 years ago | (#38375766)

You are failing to take into account the simple fact that a single piece of paper, digital or real, can contain information that cost billions to obtain.

There is no reason to assume what is being stolen was created within a single calendar year.

Re:$500 billion? Reality check! (1)

jimbolauski (882977) | more than 2 years ago | (#38375802)

The $500 billion in research compromised doesn't have to come from 2010 it was developed over multiple years and so 3% of GDP is misleading.

Re:$500 billion? Reality check! (3, Informative)

Desler (1608317) | more than 2 years ago | (#38375294)

You're an order of magnitude off. US GDP is $15 trillion so that's only 3.3%. Learn2maths.

Re:$500 billion? Reality check! (3, Funny)

Andy Dodd (701) | more than 2 years ago | (#38375326)

It's RIAA/MPAA math.

Re:$500 billion? Reality check! (2)

JustSomeProgrammer (1881750) | more than 2 years ago | (#38375336)

If I made a dollar 3 years ago and had it stolen this year how much did I have stolen this year? $0 because I didn't make that dollar this year?

I don't believe the $500 billion estimate either but refuting it based upon how much money was made in the US in 2010 doesn't sound right to me.

Like say Google's source code for their search index was stolen how much is that valued at? Does the value only count for parts that were developed in the past year or could it have just been made MORE valuable in the last year.

Re:$500 billion? Reality check! (1)

omnichad (1198475) | more than 2 years ago | (#38375426)

True, the IP's value isn't based on the sales it generates this year. It's at the very least spread over the number of years of a patent.

Re:$500 billion? Reality check! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38375362)

How's ya maths there sunshine?

500 billion = 0.5 trillion in a 15 trillion dollar economy?

Re:$500 billion? Reality check! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38375368)

The US GDP is about $15 trillion. You're only off by an order of magnitude.

Re:$500 billion? Reality check! (1)

ph1ll (587130) | more than 2 years ago | (#38375410)

No, you did your maths wrong. $500 billion is 1/30th of the US's annual GDP (that is, about 3%).

From your own link:


GDP (official exchange rate):
$14.66 trillion (2010 est.)

Re:$500 billion? Reality check! (1)

viperidaenz (2515578) | more than 2 years ago | (#38375454)

Isn't the GDP 14 trillion? I think you mean 1/3 of the exports, which its 1.3 trillion

Re:$500 billion? Reality check! (1)

MXPS (1091249) | more than 2 years ago | (#38375524)

How would you expect their story to be captivating and awe-inspiring if they used realistic numbers? Seems a bit impracticable if you ask me. For instance, if they used the following:

"a declassified estimate of the value of the blueprints, chemical formulas and other material stolen from U.S. corporate computers in the last year reached $11,654.17"

...no one would be living in fear nor would they be rushing out to buy the newest and latest protection from the Chinese hackers. How do you expect people to make a living? Talk about insensitive.

Re:$500 billion? Reality check! (1)

Billly Gates (198444) | more than 2 years ago | (#38375540)

Sigh. Please upgrade your pentium

Re:$500 billion? Reality check! (2)

bkmoore (1910118) | more than 2 years ago | (#38375564)

Stole informational assets worth $500 billion over the past year? Um, does anyone bother to do basic reality checks?

The reality check is it's impossible to put a monetary value on "stolen" data, because data only has value if it contains useful information. If I stole the production plans for the Boeing 747, it wouldn't be of value because I do not have the means to build 747s. Or in the '90s, the RIAA claiming that everyone who illegally downloaded an mp3 would have bought the album it it weren't available on Napster.

Re:$500 billion? Reality check! (1)

fsckmnky (2505008) | more than 2 years ago | (#38375794)

If I stole the production plans for the Boeing 747, it wouldn't be of value because I do not have the means to build 747s.

The story, and the world, don't revolve around you.

Re:$500 billion? Reality check! (1)

hawguy (1600213) | more than 2 years ago | (#38375668)

Stole informational assets worth $500 billion over the past year? Um, does anyone bother to do basic reality checks?

$500 billion is about 1/3 of the US's GDP for all of 2010 [cia.gov] .

So ... no, just ... just no.

These are "assets", not revenue so aren't tied to GDP. If someone stole all of the gold out of Ft Knox, they'd have $200B worth of assets that would have no relation to GDP. Likewise, if they steal a secret chemical formula valued at $1B, that has no relation to GDP. (though the valuation is related to how much revenue it could earn).

In any case, the numbers are very suspect. No one knows who exactly is stealing the data, what data is stolen, or what they are doing with it, yet somehow they came up with a surprisingly round figure of $500M for the value.

More likely it's just a wild-assed guess that has no basis in reality, just like the piracy numbers that the MPAA likes to throw around.

Re:$500 billion? Reality check! (1)

strength_of_10_men (967050) | more than 2 years ago | (#38375676)

$500 billion is about 1/3 of the US's GDP for all of 2010.

Damn. The US should just download 8 million chinese-produced songs to even all that out!

Re:$500 billion? Reality check! (1)

BlendieOfIndie (1185569) | more than 2 years ago | (#38375690)

Mod parent down.
1) US GDB for 2010 is 15 TRILLION, not 1.5 trillion (citation is the same as above, but the parent misquoted GDP)
2) It could be that a decades worth of IP was stollen in one year, so comparing with 2010's GDP is irrelevant and misleading.

Re:$500 billion? Reality check! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38375822)

They probably broke into the RIAA's servers.

You can expect the Chinese Water Army... (1)

Squidlips (1206004) | more than 2 years ago | (#38375258)

to flood this discussion with pro-China propaganda....

But haven't they done us all a favour? (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38375276)

So it appears that the Chinese have "stolen" data relating to green energy and drugs... What's the likely outcome of this horror? It appears that potentially now Chinese citizens may have access to life saving drugs, and that Chinese energy companies may now have greater incentive to use cleaner energy. Damage to any US company has yet to be demonstrated (Google's shares haven't taken a hit) - and claims of potential loss of future income seem churlish against the potential positive outcomes of this. It seems that the real problem isn't that the data has been taken, but that it has been kept from achieving it's full humanitarian potential by keeping it secret. China should go further and post their info on Wikileaks so that the whole of the world benefits.

Re:But haven't they done us all a favour? (1)

Squidlips (1206004) | more than 2 years ago | (#38375420)

Hey...the Water Army is speaking up already.....what a ridiculous post.

Re:But haven't they done us all a favour? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38375506)

Instead of the personal attack, why don't you address the issues raised?

Re:But haven't they done us all a favour? (1)

X0563511 (793323) | more than 2 years ago | (#38375488)

More likely we'll see cheap knockoffs here, (with cute little FDA disclaimers for the drugs) and people making pennies per hour to produce them over there.

Re:But haven't they done us all a favour? (1)

fsckmnky (2505008) | more than 2 years ago | (#38375832)

It seems that the real problem isn't that the data has been taken, but that it has been kept from achieving it's full humanitarian potential by keeping it secret.

Awesome.

Post your address so I can liberate the food in your kitchen so that the rest of humanity can benefit at the expense of you being able to feed your children.

Hand over your humanitarian potential. All your base belong to us.

Maybe , just maybe (2)

folderol (1965326) | more than 2 years ago | (#38375290)

It's more than time for the poor little American-based multi-nationals to think about seriously investing in real security. If your stuff is so valuable (don't believe that figure for an instant) how come it's so easily snatched?

Fix this once and for all (0, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38375346)

Cut the damm cable

outscoring / hireing cs degrees over tech schools (1)

Joe_Dragon (2206452) | more than 2 years ago | (#38375412)

have put lot's of poor security in place now if trained to people to do IT work and not let a theory based class room do the training and payed for the hardware needed to do the job right vs trying to get by with the old stuff for a very long time.

Re:outscoring / hireing cs degrees over tech schoo (1)

Midnight_Falcon (2432802) | more than 2 years ago | (#38375934)

have put lot's of poor security in place now if trained to people to do IT work and not let a theory based class room do the training and payed for the hardware needed to do the job right vs trying to get by with the old stuff for a very long time.

I have to say I cannot agree with this -- IT folks from tech schools tend not to have any knowledge of security, and these are the folks who set domain admin passwords to the company name. You find the worst problems when doing security audits where the IT people are from tech schools. Completely self-taught IT people tend to do better in my experience, and ones with CS degrees the best because they understand RFCs and cryptology etc -- this experience comes from having done dozens of compliance/security audits.
Also, I'd hate to have to quip at you for this but, maybe that college education would have paid off in you being able to write complete senteces, understand contractions (e.g. lots, not lot's), capitalization and punctuation. If you're trying to defend seemingly less-educated people, writing at a first grade level is not going to help your cause..

tech people should hack back at china (1)

Joe_Dragon (2206452) | more than 2 years ago | (#38375458)

as what can they do about it?

Re:tech people should hack back at china (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38375666)

I agree with this idea, but the self absorbed hackers in the US only target police and Microsoft. Only once a decade does someone in this country actually try to hack something else, like for the novelty of writing a Macinvirus that doesn't spread beyond the Starbucks it was released into.

Add to that the minor detail that most of the world understands english, but very little of the US hackerbase understands Mandarin and you might understand why they choose easy targets.

Well, we wanted it (4, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38375462)

We wanted the "information economy", we got it. We ignored material progress and persisted in keeping an antiquated notion of "work" going for what? The work week was about 100 hours in the 19th century and was closer to 50 by the beginning of the 20th century. Despite all the "progress" I keep hearing about and how "productive" we all are sitting at our computers, the work week hasn't reduced, and it still takes 25 years to pay for a house built out of standard parts in six weeks.

We insist on performing theater for each other while farmers feed us, instead of really analyzing what gets done by who and FOR who.

Not stolen, shared (2, Insightful)

Rogerborg (306625) | more than 2 years ago | (#38375582)

A little consistency, please. Making a copy doesn't deprive anyone of anything, right? It's all just math anyway, 1s and 0s. Corporations bad, tree pretty.

Re:Not stolen, shared (2)

betterunixthanunix (980855) | more than 2 years ago | (#38375662)

More importantly, why focus on China? I have no doubt that the Chinese are doing this sort of thing, but so is every other major world power. Have people really forgotten ECHELON?

Richard Clarke +5, Infommercial (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38375596)

"said Richard Clarke, former special adviser on cybersecurity."

Two words: BOOK SALES

Yours In Ashgabat,
Kilgore Trout, C.I.O.

bring it on (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38375622)

I welcome our slant-eyed script-kiddie overlords

Microsoft COULD give us security (1)

Deliveranc3 (629997) | more than 2 years ago | (#38375628)

But then we'd be secure against them too.

And that's just unacceptable.

This war is hundreds of years old. (4, Insightful)

bmo (77928) | more than 2 years ago | (#38375704)

And it's perpetrated by every nation on the planet.

It's no secret that the Industrial Revolution got a kickstart in the US via "stolen IP." The legend is that Samuel Slater memorized drawings across the pond in Blighty and came here with them in his head.

Another example would be dumpster diving at your competitor's company. Cutting up start strips from stamping operations is not because you want them to fit in the recycling dumpster better. The same for shredding code printouts and printed spreadsheets.

To suddenly be surprised that this is being done electronically on a systematic scale is to be utterly ignorant of history. And frankly, singling out China smells of hypocrisy, especially after two decades of US manufacturing companies willingly transferring their core manufacturing to China completely oblivious to the long term effects.

Why reinvent the wheel from scratch when you can simply snag the wheel.dwg from your competitor's computer?

--
BMO

Outsource to there and educate them here... (2)

gestalt_n_pepper (991155) | more than 2 years ago | (#38375734)

What exactly did you expect? It's not just China, of course. We outsource to India, China, the Middle East and even Pakistan. We also educate foreigners here, and not in ethnomusicology or interpretive dance either. Do you think no theft will occur? No backdoors in hardware or software? No designs, models or code will be resold to competitors for a profit without your knowledge?

First we sold our security to the Arabs for cheap oil. Then we sold our minds to China and India for some cost savings. Our children will be selling their bodies, I expect.

Have they been stealing open source software? (1)

FoolishOwl (1698506) | more than 2 years ago | (#38375754)

If there's one thing I've learned about IT security, it's that it's almost impossible to secure data anyway. Maybe it would make more sense to follow development models in which there's no such thing as stealing.

$500 billion (1)

matt_morgan (220418) | more than 2 years ago | (#38375828)

I believe that estimate like I believe the RIAA's damage estimates.

secure your stuff (3, Insightful)

sl4shd0rk (755837) | more than 2 years ago | (#38375874)

It's not that hard to find a balance between security and usability. At least try. When I read about:

    * un-encrypted data on portable devices getting lost[1]
    * tapes being swiped in people's cars[2]
    * servers with egregiously unsecured login portals[3]

I'm not sure why people aren't just allowing google to index their entire infrastructure. Really. It would be cheap backup and really easy to find your stuff. Sure, 0-days happen, mistakes are made, admins are not infallible but I can't blame the Chinese (or whoever) for picking the low-hanging fruit when it's been places so close to the ground.

[1] - http://www.phiprivacy.net/?p=6572 [phiprivacy.net]
[2] - http://www.mysanantonio.com/news/military/article/Tricare-patient-data-lost-in-car-burglary-2195822.php [mysanantonio.com]
[3] - www.dataprotectioncenter.com/antivirus/sophos/second-dutch-security-firm-hacked-unsecured-phpmyadmin-implicated/

Pin the tail please, win money. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38375930)

Money talks, hackers from all over the world have nothing to fear and the US is a donkey with the blind fold on.

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