North Korean Dictator Kim Jong Il Dead at 70 518
As reported by numerous sources, Kim Jong Il has died at the age of 70 (69 by some tallies), after 17 years as the brutal head of North Korea. While the cause of death is uncertain, Bloomberg News says "Kim probably had a stroke in August 2008 and may have also contracted pancreatic cancer, according to South Korean news reports."
Respectfully (Score:5, Funny)
Let us take this opportunity to thank the Dear Leader, who sacrificed his life for the socialist paradise.
Re:Respectfully (Score:5, Funny)
Too bad he won't be around to see North Korea's planned economic strength and prosperity in 2012 [nkeconwatch.com].
Re:Respectfully (Score:5, Funny)
Good Riddance (Score:5, Funny)
Kim Jong Il is now Kim Jong Dead.
Re:Good Riddance (Score:5, Funny)
Didn't your momma ever teach you never to speak il of the dead?
Re:Good Riddance (Score:4, Funny)
Yes, I see the "speak il".
But, yes, my momma did teach me not to speak ill of the dead. And, I defied her in other ways, too.
Bye, Kim, we won't miss you at all. And, I hope the people are soon having rock and roll bands playing in your palaces, dancing with joy that you're gone.
And, yes, yes, yes - I'm aware that isn't likely to happen. The new Kim seems like a little putz, and he has to answer to an insane regime all the same. He couldn't throw parties for the people if he wanted to.
Re:Good Riddance (Score:5, Interesting)
Bye, Kim, we won't miss you at all.
Lets wait and see to who steps in to fill his shoes... you may find you miss him more than you'd think.
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Comment removed (Score:5, Informative)
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I hear you, and I hope you're not right. It's hard to imagine the little twit being worse than big Kim.
You do remind me that I've said the same thing about Syria, Egypt, Libya, and several other countries and the Arab Spring.
I think it's relatively unlikely that North Korea will form a new Islamic government based on free and fair democratic elections.
Re:Good Riddance (Score:4, Funny)
I hear you, and I hope you're not right. It's hard to imagine the little twit being worse than big Kim.
You do remind me that I've said the same thing about Syria, Egypt, Libya, and several other countries and the Arab Spring.
I think it's relatively unlikely that North Korea will form a new Islamic government based on free and fair democratic elections.
Ha ha, very funny. We've heard that one before and BOOM - Hezbollah (and all the other late comers to the party).
With current empirical evidence and other data sources (unidentified, top secret, and missing) it is clearly time to make a preemptive strike (a Defensive Maneuver (TM)) against this Axis of Evil and initiate Change worthy of a Peace Prize.
Besides, it's clear all of those elections were rigged. It's impossible a True Democracy (TM) could come to a legitimate conclusion at odds with the Architect of the Free World. Such election results are clearly evidence of a population crying for help to overthrow their inherently illegitimately elected government. Military Advice (and cruise missiles) will be provided to said countries's insurgents, er freedom fighters, by priority established according to the value of military-industrial contracts (regulated by fair and impartial registered lobbyists).
Re:Good Riddance (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Good Riddance (Score:5, Funny)
Perhaps he had an electric fan running on that train? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fan_death [wikipedia.org]
Also, news here in Japan is reporting he had a heart attack. Over-stressed indeed.
It's a big deal (Score:5, Informative)
Re:It's a big deal (Score:4, Insightful)
Taking a brutal dictator seriously is exactly the wrong approach. I'd rather remember him as a supporting character in a lowbrow puppet comedy. I won't bother to post the YouTube link, since there's already two or three up here.
Re:It's a big deal (Score:5, Insightful)
Taking a brutal dictator seriously is exactly the wrong approach. I'd rather remember him as a supporting character in a lowbrow puppet comedy.
That's nice, as long as neither you nor your family or friends can be touched by the ridiculous little man's army or secret police. If you lived in NK though, you'd take him much more seriously.
Please understand - I'm not trying to criticize you; I just personally feel uneasy dismissing Kim with a laugh or a shrug from the safety of the USA, even though sometimes he seemed to make a special effort to build himself into a caricature. But then I remember some footage I saw on the BBC a few years ago, supposedly smuggled from NK, showing the summary executions of a few people from a small village and I don't really feel like laughing anymore.
Re:It's a big deal (Score:5, Insightful)
Some 0.1 percent of his subjects will now kill themselves in mourning. Is that enough of an appreciation of how important he was?
He was a bad man. bent on nuclear proliferation and providing arms to our enemies. He starved millions of his own people to death. He dedicated something like 1.5 million man-years to the reception of former US president Jimmy Carter.
That's moot now. His son may be coherent, or the military cabal that kills him may be. The news item is that the situation just became fluid. I hope the State department isn't on Christmas break for this one.
Call me crazy (Score:4, Informative)
Maybe I'm misunderstanding "120" and "millions"
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_many_people_die_from_starvation_each_year_in_America [answers.com]
Re:"He starved millions of his own people to death (Score:4, Insightful)
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Yes, there is hunger in the US, but I have yet to hear of anyone here strving to death like they are in North Korea.
Re:It's a big deal (Score:4, Funny)
I think he was really cool guy too. Too bad because I was planning on visiting North Korea and now these news kinda ruin my trip. Interesting to see what happens next year there tho, maybe it's still worth the trip.
Any sufficiently advanced idiocy is indistinguishable from trolling. (and vice versa)
Re:It's a big deal (Score:5, Funny)
Why go to that horrible socialist country when you could go to the capitalist paradise that is Haiti?
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Jane Fonda, you sure have an interesting Slashdot username.
Re:It's a big deal (Score:5, Insightful)
Oh come on, Castro may be a communist and a dictator, but on his best days he couldn't hope to match the shithouse-rat-crazy antics of the Dear Leader.
Re:It's a big deal (Score:5, Insightful)
The nukes were on Russian ships, the emplacement was paid for by Russia, and all the money came from Russia as well. I doubt Castro had much to say in how the crisis was resolved. Castro approved the plan to install them, but that's about as far as his involvement went. Everything else was decided directly between Moscow and Washington. You can check out the wikipedia page with the timelines for this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuban_missile_crisis [wikipedia.org]
I don't think he was crazy. I don't think he was a communist either. I just think he was someone who, like a lot of folks, started out the right way but somewhere ended up missing a turn and then took the road down to Hell - paved, as always, with numerous good intentions.
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Wow, this is the must uniformed comment that I have seen in a while. Pyongyang was an amazingly advanced city for him and his cronies. For everyone else though... not so much. North Korea has one of the worst starvation rates in the world (so bad that many areas have resorted to cannibalism at different points over the last 20 years). And meanwhile, South Korea has been desperately trying to send food to them through the Sunshine Policy of asking for nothing in return for the aid. They had to end the sunshi
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For your information, Africa is not a country but a continent. Africa contains a lot of countries, one of which is the country South Africa. They have many problems there but starvation is not one of them, as holds for most countries in Africa.
Re:It's a big deal (Score:5, Insightful)
I would start by allowing free speech, criticism of the government
And you'd be instantly deposed by the second tier of the leadership; the people who made it good during the old regime, and who would be jailed or worse if the regime failed or if it became more democratic.
The first thing you need to do is consolidate your hold on power. Remove the old guard, replace people in key positions with your men. Take special care to ensure control over the armed forces - army, police, people's "militias". Make nice or be sure you control non-governmental leaders of opinion, (like religious figures), if such exist. Keep your people honest enough that they won't have too much of a vested interest in keeping the old society style. Only after that should you start opening your society, maybe during your second or third year or thereabouts.
For a relatively good example see how Gorbachev handled his reforms in the former USSR - he started by calling for changes, but kept specifics rather vague, in the meantime making sure the old apparatchiks were removed from power (for example he replaced the powerful conservative Gromyko with the younger reformist Shervadnadze). About one year later he started with the economic reforms (a.k.a. perestroika), at the same time continuing the consolidation of his position. Only after he was sure of his control, in 1988 (three years after being elected secretary of the communist party), did Gorbatchev introduce the "glasnost" liberalization reforms (greater freedom of speech, greater freedom of the press, less control of criticism of the government, release of a big number of political detainees).
Perestroika didn't work, because Gorbachev, whatever his other qualities, was still a communist at heart, and never pushed the reforms far enough. Glasnost was however quite successful, and, IMHO, was a direct contributor to the fall of communism in Eastern Europe, and to the subsequent disollution of the USSR.
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Re:It's a big deal (Score:5, Interesting)
"Perestroika didn't work, because Gorbachev, whatever his other qualities, was still a communist at heart, and never pushed the reforms far enough. Glasnost was however quite successful, and, IMHO, was a direct contributor to the fall of communism in Eastern Europe, and to the subsequent disollution of the USSR."
Disclaimer: I'm from Eastern Europe, so I know a little bit what you talk about. Also I'm socialist by nature, but I don't believe in forced change, nor change forced upon someone, so I'm kinda torn always about this :)
What I really don't like that we mix up terms, especially when talking about regimes. Russians like to mix Fascism with Nazism (which is very ironic taking into account that their country now is definitely Fascist by definition - look up for definition to understand what I'm talking about) when they talk about World War II and their struggle against Hitler.
Also in my opinion what was in USSR after 1925 wasn't communism (before that there was just bloody chaos with both sides killing people like there's no tomorrow). It was totalitarianism with Bolshevist rule - and some socialist juice (like free medicine, stable work or social guarantees) thrown in. If fact all real old Marxists (still people with lot of blood on their hands, but they aimed to open Communist party and allow discussions and criticism) died in 1937 purges by hand of Stalin. After that it was mix of Russian nationalism (as "nation-unifier"), totalitarianism and elitism of one party elite.
If we take bigger picture, most of killings weren't any way connected to Communism or people killed poised any threat to regime. For example big purges usually involved barbaric competition (who will kill most people to show it's dedication to leader) or getting rid of unpleasant people using atmosphere of mistrust and lies.
(I suggest to read what actually community rule meant in Russia in 1905 - 1917, Stalinism era and other stuff. Wikipedia has good start material for this.)
In nutshell - Gorbachev wasn't communist (I'm ready to bet that there were very few key people who actually believed it was possible to achieve in Communist party at that time already) as he was just a part of the this system, which tried to protect itself. However Perestroika didn't work due of other problems - actually reforms were too successful. They opened USSR too much and harsh reality of economics started to kick in. People were tired of promises and compromises between freedom and life quality and talking about changes (but with no any possibility trying them) was too much. Regime couldn't deliver what they wanted also because they had wasted all their money in arm competition with the West - and (ohh irony) in Afghanistan. Also only counteractions like famous unsuccessful August coup (or January OMON attacks) pushed people to support nationalists in their soviet republics to claim independence and separation because they understood quite good what would come.
Re:It's a big deal (Score:4, Interesting)
Liberalization sounds easy, but it is a painfully hard thing to do in real life. Sun Yat-sen tried to do it in China, but his ideals meant that he was pushed out of power before he could actually do much, and the replacement government was quite the disaster. The man who did bring democracy successfully to the Republic of China was Chiang Ching-kuo, whose reign was known as the "white terror".
Point is, governing well is HARD, and good intentions are not always the same results.
Re:It's a big deal (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:It's a big deal (Score:5, Insightful)
What? No, if you know of a case where free speech has caused problems, bring it up.
Not that I agree with GP's point, but in the interest of completeness:
Westboro Baptist Church.
Re:It's a big deal (Score:5, Insightful)
It would cause turmoil in the country.
No it wouldn't. You made that up without providing evidence.
Since China is a democratic country
China is not a democratic country. You can't have true democracy without free speech. Really, this is an important point. If you don't get it, you will never see reality clearly.
Re:It's a big deal (Score:5, Insightful)
Calling China a democratic country is a stretch. The elections are not independent, the communist party maintains full control over it. Besides speech is highly restricted. How do you expect democracy to function without free speech?
Re:It's a big deal (Score:5, Insightful)
Sorry, phantomfive - but I think that Sharklaser is speaking with a cultural background that you lack.
Personally, I've never been to China. I've only met a few Chinese people. I don't like China because it is communist, and because they are working hard to steal American jobs, American tech, and they are working hard to dominate American interests.
Despite my likes and dislikes, I've read enough to understand that Chinese culture has almost no resemblance to my own culture. The fact that I have traveled, seen other cultures, and due to the fact that my own relatives represented different cultures gives me some framework to understand what Sharklaser seems to be saying.
The fact is, you don't just turn a culture upside down overnight, unless you enjoy chaos. People who have lived a certain way for generations simply aren't going to accept radical change in ten years, or even twenty.
How many years have the women's libbers been working on their agenda? And, women still bitch about that "glass ceiling". Change doesn't happen overnight, or even within a lifetime. It takes centuries to make really big changes in a culture, UNLESS you're wiling to accept a lot of turmoil.
Re:It's a big deal (Score:4, Interesting)
Since China is a democratic country
This earned a "(Score:5, Insightful)" on slashdot? Really? Wow.
You have to remember that most Chinese actually positively agree about limiting free speech.
Which is why they constantly speak of magical creatures like the River Crab, the Grass Mud Horse, and the Small Elegant Butterfly.
Just try yelling fire in a crowded theater.
I'm not aware of any US laws that prohibit the reporting of theater fires. Justice Holmes' actual words were "falsely shouting fire in a theater".
Re:It's a big deal (Score:5, Insightful)
Your attitude is shared by a lot of Chinese. However, if I ask them if they'd like everything they do on Weibo to be approved by a government official first, they say no. If I ask them if they want to know about the things that Weibo reports, they say yes. If I ask them: do you want corrupt government officials to be removed from power, they say yes. If I ask them: would you like to know that your cooking oil is poisonous and that your babies' milk contains melanin, killing him, they say yes.
Basically they want free speech for those issues where it suits them. But it doesn't work that way, because the corrupt factory owners never appreciate free speech. So unless you get something we call "free speech", you are giving a blank cheque to those in power who want their corruption to remain secret.
Remember: if an idea cannot stand criticism, it's probably because it's not as good as you thought it was.
Now I have heard it said that people in the city think the peasants are easily incited by some people providing silly ideas (a la Falun Gong). But in most Western countries this type of thing is still illegal: see your own examples. No nation in the world has absolute free speech. But the Chinese should have the freedom to criticize what is going on. Because one thing is certain: the corrupt owners of factories and companies will not stop poisoning people, or putting up buildings that colllapse, or steal the land of the peasants, if noone can speak about it.
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People who remember Tiananmen and Tibet would like to have a word with you.
Regards,
Ruemere
Who modded this drivel insightful? (Score:4, Insightful)
"don't like China because it is communist,"
Well there's a well thought out argument. FWIW china hasn't been communist for over a decade now - its actually the closest thing to a capitalist dictatorship the world has right now.
"and because they are working hard to steal American jobs, American tech, and they are working hard to dominate American interests."
Oh right, so the chinese forced american companies to outsource all their menufacture to china did they? It had nothing to do with greedy CEOs wanting to save a quick buck and screw whatever US jobs it cost or what knock-on effect it may have on the economy just so they could "raise shareholder value" - and coincidentaly collect a fat bonus for doing it did it? And same CEOs having outsourced blue collar work are not happily outsourcing white collar work to india. I suppose thats the indians fault is it?
You need to look closer to home for the reason china is in the ascendent. I would say the USA has economically shot itself in the foot but its actually closer to having blown its entire leg off.
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Since China is a democratic country, shouldn't they be able to decide it themselves, without US trying to manipulate?
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.
inalienable/inlnbl/
Adjective: Unable to be taken away from or given away by the possessor: "inalienable human rights".
Unlike many of the things people throw around as being something the US was founded on the protection of human rights was basically the first one out of the box. If you believe people have inalienable rights it is morally bankrupt to not speak up when you see others being denied them. And I don't pretend the US has been perfect, we've ignored these ideals repeatedly, and not just recently but going back to practically the day the declaration of independence was signed, that still doesn't make it right.
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Sorry, phantomfive - but I think that Sharklaser is speaking with a cultural background that you lack.
No he doesn't. He seems to have picked up his ideas of China from random blogs, and from Slashdot (since Slashdot is the only source he cited). I am gratified to see you have a relatively low UID, which leads me to deduce you are not Yet Another Sharklaser Sockpuppet.
Personally, I've never been to China. I've only met a few Chinese people.
I have. I speak Chinese, and I work with Chinese people every day.
Saying Asian cultures can't handle free speech is insulting. It is more insulting, to the point of naivete, when you realize many Asian countries DO have free speech, includin
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Like monotheistic religion, it is an essential part of US culture and thinking that their way is the only correct way. Any viewpoint that differs significantly from what the US collectively - or its government - considers to be correct or normal is therefore wrong. Now, I know they are not alone in thinking this way, probably everyone does to one degree or another but in the US it seems to be particularly virulent, and they are a major economic, cultural and military force at the moment so their view is dom
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Hmmm (Score:5, Funny)
"Kim probably had a stroke in August 2008 and may have also contracted pancreatic cancer, according to South Korean news reports."
The newspaper continued... "We aren't sure which blow dart hit him but it was probably both"
Re:Hmmm (Score:5, Funny)
"Kim probably had a stroke in August 2008 and may have also contracted pancreatic cancer, according to South Korean news reports."
The newspaper continued... "We aren't sure which blow dart hit him but it was probably both"
That's what the papers said, we all know in truth he died from rownriness.
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Look, don't be an idiot and make fun of Asians and their general problems speaking proper English. I'm pretty sure you'd sound like an idiot when trying to speak an Asian language.
Besides - it's just razy lacism.
Re:Hmmm (Score:5, Informative)
Look, don't be an idiot and make fun of Asians and their general problems speaking proper English. I'm pretty sure you'd sound like an idiot when trying to speak an Asian language.
Besides - it's just razy lacism.
Erm, its a joke from Team America, you know, that comedy movie.
As a person who speaks Thai, yes I know there are a lot of sounds that are very difficult to get, not to mention getting your head and tongue around the tonal part of the language, mai is a common word, it has five meanings depending on if it's said in high, low, mid, rising or falling tones. Compared to Thai, Korean is a very simple language so dont preach to me sunshine.
Oh and please stop being such a humourless git.
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Re:Hmmm (Score:5, Informative)
That's what the papers said, we all know in truth he died from rownriness.
You know the joke is that Koreans can say the 'L' sound, it is the Japanese who don't use it in their own language. Like a lot of that film is was supposed to show up the general ignorance of Americans about the world, but I suppose it was a bit too subtle and the joke whooshed over people's heads. Don't feel too bad though, most British people didn't get it either.
For the record, I got the original joke.
Now, in fact, Japanese doesn't use the same sounds as English "l" (lateral alveolar approximant) or "r" (alveolar approximant), but rather something reasonably different from both: a retroflex tap. However, as Japanese uses this to transliterate or approximate the pronunciation of both sounds in English, we tend to hear a discrepancy between both, and usually interpret this as the sound corresponding to an allophone for the other. So, English speakers tend to hear a Japanese person saying "r" instead of what we expect "l", but equally tend to hear a Japanese person saying "l" instead of what we expect "r".
Getting to Korean, they actually only have one phoneme for "l" and "r" as well, but it works differently from how it does in Japanese, in that the two sounds are distinct, but they are just allophones of each other. Thus while a Korean can typically pronounce "lice" just fine, they cannot typically properly pronounce "kilo-", instead using a flap instead of a lateral approximant. Meanwhile they will typically pronounce "rice" as "lice", and "aria" as a flap instead of an approximant.
Finally, Chinese has two phonemes that are interpreted as "l" and "r". The lateral approximant ("l") being typical, but the "r" phoneme corresponding with a voiced retroflex sibilant. English speakers typically interpret the latter as an "r"-ish sound, because it is retroflex, but in Russian, the phoneme is considered a "zh" noise similar to the "s" in "pleasure". This could cause Chinese speakers to approximate the "r" sound with an "l", rather than their voiced retroflex sibilant which orthographically appears closer, but actually shares little in common.
So this "Asians can't pronounce 'l's" has some basis in ... well, I'll call it pseudo-fact. In reality, all the languages disagree a lot about "l"s and "r"s proper, so much so that English's IPA transcription usually renders the alveolar approximant as an alveolar trill; a completely different form of articulation, that neither American English nor British English actually use! There are actually about 11 different forms of articulations (according to the IPA) that correspond to "r"s and "l"s in various languages, and none of the languages precisely agree about how to divide them up properly, because a language usually only ever interprets two phonemes out of all of them, but some as low as one (Japanese and Korean), or some even up to three (Spanish). So, once you start adding up the possible combinations of "what is r?" and "what is l?" you get into pretty murky waters quite quickly.
And now the danger begins (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:And now the danger begins (Score:5, Interesting)
Comment removed (Score:5, Interesting)
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My grandfather was 70 years old and in ill health.
He eventually died 26 years later.
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Causing trouble abroad is a classic way to cement power at home: "Busy giddy minds with foreign quarrels".
Re:And now the danger begins (Score:5, Informative)
I agree completely that this isn't welcome, but don't underestimate the degree to which Kim Jong Un has been integrated into the power structure. Although from April 2009, there's an excellent article on Foreign Policy [foreignpolicy.com] about the efforts to get him and his allies into key posts.
Having lived in Korea for almost six years (but since moved away) this news is disturbing and unsettling. While I don't predict anything drastic like a war, Kim Jong Un is going to have to prove himself to the people. If that means sinking another ship like the Cheonan, or shelling another island, or worse... then everyone on the peninsula should be prepared.
Re:And now the danger begins (Score:4, Informative)
Un is going to have to prove himself to the people.
And the northern suburbs of Seoul are well within reach of artillery. Lets hope Kim Jong Un isn't that stupid.
Stability seems overrated (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:And now the danger begins (Score:4, Insightful)
Actually, this is probably good. It takes a lot of political skill to maintain a dictatorship in the face of all of the normal crises in addition to quelling uprisings. I'd make the argument that a dictator is the highest form of politician since you don't even have the legitimacy of a crown to validate your power. An unprepared heir to a dictator won't likely be able to maintain the current state. Odds are, the military has seen the damage done by KJI and will tack back to a more accessible government; assuming they take over.
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Indeed. But we can hope he will act more like King Carlos of Spain [wikipedia.org], who was put in power by Franco but instead of being an authoritarian, opened up the country to democracy. It can happen.
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Re:And now the danger begins (Score:5, Insightful)
Which might make him more manageable to the US being that young. I am sure if he doesn't comply he will be gone soon.
He'll be gone for what replacement? If the US goal is to "manage" the region and/or head of state, well... the US doesn't have the best track record for placing people in power in foreign governments.
Re:And now the danger begins (Score:4, Insightful)
What the US might think is the least of his problems. I think top of mind for him is how to embrace his own military establishment, and reassure them they will not lose influence. I should think he's well trained on the levers of power, so maybe this goes easy.
If the military doesn't accept him, things get pretty random. Random is not good.
North Korean State television Says... (Score:5, Funny)
North Korean State television Says Kim Jong Il died peacefully in his sleep while bowling a 300. (Via @NickGreene on Twitter)
Re:North Korean State television Says... (Score:5, Informative)
The true report is even funnier, that he died from mental and physical exhaustion from his dedication to improving the country. Can't make that stuff up.
Re:North Korean State television Says... (Score:4, Interesting)
The true report is even funnier, that he died from mental and physical exhaustion from his dedication to improving the country. Can't make that stuff up.
And North Koreans believe it. There's a book anyone concerned with North Korea should read: The Cleanest Race: How North Koreans See Themselves and Why It Matters [amazon.com].
We keep thinking that all people desire democracy and western style freedom. But that's not always the case. Decades of brainwashing works. Norks adored that guy, and his father before him, because the whole system in NK was designed to ensure that.
Re:North Korean State television Says... (Score:5, Funny)
N. Korean Astroturfer.
Comment removed (Score:5, Funny)
Re:North Korean State television Says... (Score:5, Funny)
Kim Jong Il died peacefully in his sleep while jumping seventeen double-decker buses on his Harley and juggling fire-breathing monkeys.
What a guy. Chuck Norris would be proud.
Re:North Korean State television Says... (Score:4, Funny)
North Korean State television Says Kim Jong Il died peacefully in his sleep while beating crap out of Chuck Norris.
North Korean State television Says Kim Jong Il died peacefully in his sleep while writing Amazon's bestselling novel "Sleeping my way to death".
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A new Internet meme! Nice. Let me try.
North Korean State television Says Kim Jong Il died peacefully in his sleep while beating up Chuck Norris.
Meh (Score:5, Insightful)
World has now one asshole less.
Re:Meh (Score:5, Informative)
Maybe dining on lobsters and imported cognac while up to 3.5 million [wikipedia.org] of his citizens died of starvation. If that doesn't count, then I'm not sure what does.
The famine occurred only just after he took power, so I guess you can argue that the blame is on Kim Il Sung and years of juche ideology. But make no mistake, Kim Jong Il was not a naive little boy trapped by circumstance. He was an egocentric sociopath who lived a life of luxury as his country struggled in abject poverty.
Re:Meh (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Meh (Score:5, Informative)
He played lots of mind games with US, South Korea and rest of the world because he had to.
Or he could have made peace, like South Korea tried with the Sunshine Policy [wikipedia.org].
Re:Meh (Score:4, Insightful)
Dude, stick to your script of bashing google.You can't tell a Democracy from a direct Democracy [wikipedia.org] from a Republic [wikipedia.org]. You can't tell free speech from a majority voting system, and think that because something isn't perfect, it should be tossed out. And finally, you just make up shit when you say "and would likely even attempt to make law to kill them".
In short, you're either a giant troll, or an even bigger moron. Your Google bashing is pretty subtle at this point, but the rest is really junky.
Re:Meh (Score:5, Insightful)
Why do you think free speech is good for the humankind, overally?
Well, this is basic civics, I'm surprised you didn't learn this somewhere. You might want to pick up a good book about governments and learn this basic stuff.
Freedom of speech, that is the ability to criticize the government, is important, because then the people can change the government if they decide they don't like it. Search for the meaning of "the pen is mightier than the sword" if you'd like more information on that topic.
We can demonstrate empirically that democracies overall have been better for humankind, this is history. From a theoretical standpoint, you may have a king who is better, more efficient, and more just than a democracy would be. However, inevitably he will have a son, or grandson who is not such a good king, and monarchies have no good system for removing bad leaders like democracy does. Democracy doesn't guarantee a good government, but it guarantees that the people will have the government they deserve.
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The best thing about free speech is getting to make up your own words.
Re:Meh (Score:5, Insightful)
What makes him an asshole? He was in a really difficult position. He played lots of mind games with US, South Korea and rest of the world because he had to. This whole thing predates his leadership.
What makes him an asshole? Are you serious? Lets see... making sure his army was fed before anyone else while watching over a million (!) civilians starve to death. Forced labor camps with conditions not much better than Nazi concentration camps. Clandestine kidnapping of Japanese nationals. Stunts like the unprovoked sinking of his neighbor's vessels, and firing medium range missiles over the border, then stamping his feet like a spoiled brat with demands for increased food aid. Shooting of tourists for wandering away from their "resort" compound. Aggressively pursuing nuclear weapons and military might while ensuring that his people were too hungry and scared to revolt. Establishing a god-king cult of personality. Having anyone who wants to leave that hellhole of a country executed on the spot. Punishing entire families (including small children) for "crimes" of individuals. Secretly compiling a vast store of luxury goods and spirits for disbursement to his party elite, while claiming to be a shining example of humble socialist perfection. Raising his son to believe he's the rightful heir to the universe, thereby ensuring that the cycle of arrogance and brutality continues for another generation. That, my dear reader, fulfills my definition of a grade A asshole.
Re: (Score:3)
I'm so Ronery (Score:3, Funny)
I'm so Ronery. [youtube.com]
Team America will miss him (Score:3, Insightful)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jdug6yHJB40 [youtube.com]
There are not enough dictators left in Asia to keep the yellow man down. It's terrifying. Why hasn't the CIA made more they have the technology!
Kim Jong Il, (Score:4, Funny)
Along with Bin Laden, Gaddafi, and Steve Jobs all inside a year.
The world is still not running out of assholes.
Bonus (Score:5, Interesting)
2011 was a good year to dictators... what else can be said?
Updates on the current situation insid North Korea (Score:5, Informative)
North Korea has announced that it has entered a period of formal mourning following the death of Kim Jong Il lasting from the 17th, the day of his passing, until the 29th.
The news was released in a brief communiqué in the name of the ‘State Funeral Committee’.
Chosun Central News Agency announced the news, stating, “The body of National Defense Commission Chairman Kim will lie in state at Kumsusan Memorial Palace during the period of mourning from the 17th to the 29th. Visitors will be received between the 20th and 27th. The ceremony for his parting will be performed on the 28th in Pyongyang.”
“Central memorial meetings to honor Chairman Kim will open on the 29th,” it went on. “At that time in Pyongyang and sites in every province there will be an artillery salute and 3 minutes silence, and all official vehicles and vessels will sound their horns.”
Second update: NK Borders Ordered Closed Before Death Announcement http://www.dailynk.com/english/read.php?cataId=nk01700&num=8549 [dailynk.com]
North Korean border guard units received orders at 1AM on the night of the 18th to close the border with China with immediate effect.
An inside military source told Daily NK this morning, “At 1AM on the night of the 18th a ‘Special Guard’ order was handed down to the unit. All officers who had finished work were recalled to the base and have been on emergency duty ever since.”
“At the time even commanding officers did not know about the contents of the order, and as per the order to completely close the border, normal patrols in groups of two were stepped up to groups of four. We only learned that the General had died from special broadcasts,” the source added.
Thus, it is clear that the North Korean authorities took steps to avert civilian unrest and potential mass defection attempts by shutting down the border and reinforcing patrols prior to announcing Kim’s death.
Third update: NK Shuts Down on News of Death http://www.dailynk.com/english/read.php?cataId=nk01500&num=8552 [dailynk.com]
Following the official announcement of Kim Jong Il's death today, North Korea has imposed rigid social controls, including the complete closure of markets.
An inside source told Daily NK this lunchtime, "The jangmadang is closed and people are not allowed to go outside. Local Party secretaries are issuing special commands through local Union of Democratic Women unit chairwomen, and the chairwomen have been gathered at district offices for emergency meetings."
According to the source, National Security Agency and People’s Safety Ministry agents have been deployed in streets and alleyways to control civilian movements. There have not been any signs of public unrest to date.
Kim Jong Il's sudden death has apparently caught people off-guard, the source revealed, commenting, "Nobody had the slightest idea about the General’s death even right before they saw the broadcast. You can hear the sound of wailing outside."
That news agency gets the majority of their info by cell phone conversation with North Koreans who live along the Chinese/Russian border, which is how we're able to get updates from the inside.
Re:Updates on the current situation insid North Ko (Score:4, Interesting)
You can hear the sound of wailing outside.
You know, that's pretty fucking depressing. Not Kim's death, that's a reason to celebrate; but much like when Stalin died, it's really fucked to see the people actually, honestly mourning... Makes you wonder about a few things, doesn't it?
Re: (Score:3)
The man had a cult of personality, and this is what cults of personality do. The same happened for Stalin, Mao, and Kim Il-Sung. It'll probably happen for Fidel Castro and Hugo Chavez too, when they die.
To bad south park is in the off season (Score:5, Insightful)
They would have a field day with this.
Re: (Score:3)
Kim Jong II (Score:3)
So is it now time for Kim Jong III to take the throne?
Ill hear No Ill spoken of sans-serif fonts, thank you.
Western Capitalism v State Communism (Score:3, Interesting)
Under State Communism, the elite declare that they own as much as possible so the population are turned into desperate slaves. There are a dwindling few in the middle who insist that life is dandy under State Communism because they were intelligent, unscrupulous and obeisant enough to get ahead, and that "at least it's not like Western Capitalism" where people are left to wither. Man exploits man.
Under Western Capitalism, the elite declare that they own as much as possible so the population are turned into desperate slaves. There are a dwindling few in the middle who insist that life is dandy under Western Capitalism because they were intelligent, unscrupulous and obeisant enough to get ahead, and that "at least it's not like State Communism" where people are forced to work. Man exploits man.
At least when we see news reports about how great our country is/isn't we can go around and check to see how much the media is lying. We have to be very unchoosy in where we visit in order to get a full picture, and few of us are willing to do that - it takes time and is sometimes quite dangerous - but at least we can obtain some approximation. None of us know much about NK at all beyond obvious Western propaganda and occasional isolated reports. Yet we are much quicker to assume and to condemn than to campaign for more information. Isn't it so easy to say, "Guy X in Arabia/Asia is evil because I have a tweet saying so - let me retweet that and feel part of the neoliberation movement" ? Isn't it easy to assume that what occupies that power vacuum will be better - Mission has been Accomplished so many times over the past decade, hasn't it?
Not so great (Score:3, Interesting)
The saddest thing is that probably each and every citizen -- be them old, young, children, ill, healthy -- will have (as in obliged) to pay his or her visit to the funeral in order to say a last good bye, in a country with a terrible winter and where artificial heating is a luxury only available to the great members of the party. Perhaps even a little sadder is knowing that absolutely nothing will change, for his son has been trained since his early years to take on daddy's position and keep up with the realm of terror, not to mention that the old military leaders who were by KJI's side the whole time still remain.
The positive thing about his death to the citizens of North Korea is to show them that despite of what their government have been saying, their leaders are not deities nor special in any way, and are prone to die just like any other human. I wonder how his death is being explained to citizens -- perhaps they are being taught that the dearest leader ascended to the skies after fulfilling his role as a guide to humanity.
Re:69, 70, by some.... (Score:5, Informative)
When talking to a Korean, I've found it more efficient to just ask what year they were born. Avoids a ton of confusion.
Re:69, 70, by some.... (Score:5, Interesting)
Actually, while that's true about Korean birthdays, in this case people actually aren't sure. Older reports said he was born in 1941, but his official biography says 1942. The general assumption is that he was born in 1941, and 1942 was made up for propaganda. His father, Kim Il-sung would have been 30 in 1942, meaning that, by altering the date, they can celebrate 10 year anniversaries together (so next year they can have a big celebration for Kim Il-sung's 100th birthday and Kim Jong-il's 70th). Since part of how Kim Jong-il held onto power was by trying to absorb some of his father's reflected glory, that made sense as a propaganda move. So he's probably 70, but might be 69 if his "official" birthday is actually accurate.
Also, with regard to age complexity, don't forget that most Koreans literally don't know how to say "forty years old" or older because the numbering system used for ages is only for sequential counting (there's a different numbering system for things which are not always sequential). When necessary, they'll use the other (Chinese-derived) numbering system for ages above 39, but generally will simply avoid talking about it.
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"Where's the birth certificate!"
Re: (Score:3)
hitchens death was on slashdot already, though that wasn't really news for nerds either.
who cares? besides kim forced more people out of religions than hitchens!
Re:How does this qualify as a slashdot item??? (Score:5, Insightful)
Surprisingly, it turns out that we nerds occupy forms in the real world, and thus significant news about this world are news for nerds.
Re: (Score:3)
The heir apparent (Kim Jong-un) has a computing degree (though I suspect the odds of him failing any classes at a university named after his grandfather were pretty slim).
Other than that, it's simply a massively important piece of international news that will have substantial and complex consequences throughout Asia, the ripples of which will spread around the world.
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
[X] Kim Jong Il
[X] Gaddafi
[X] Osama Bin Laden
[X] Steve Jobs
[ ] Internet Explorer
Re: (Score:3)
I was just having a look at the *official" North Korean website and did a whois on it. Interestingly the domain was registered in Spain:
Registrant:
korea-dpr.com #29996
Alejandro Cao de benos de Les Perez (vientian@hotmail.com)
This Alejandro Cao de benos de Les Perez guy is apparently one of very few foreign supporters of North Korea, who has been enthusiastic enough to work his way up to having an official position of representing the country online, and running the official web site. He used to have a forum on that site, where they five other foreign supporters of DPRK could write about their love for the dear leader, but it has been closed down a couple of years ago. Maybe it was too much work keeping it clean from critical vo