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Linux Is Going Down

CmdrTaco posted more than 13 years ago | from the well-of-course-it-is-duh dept.

Linux 629

villoks writes "Doug Miller, Microsoft's group product manager for competitive strategies is trying desperately to find arguments against Linux." Many really good points, and many other equally bad ones.

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Duh? (2)

Anonymous Coward | more than 13 years ago | (#466808)

What do you expect them to say? Nothing? Only nice things? This is Microsoft, they're competitive. Judging from most people's attitudes on this particular website, so are Linux advocates. How many positive things about Microsoft/Windows do you read here?
Stop yer bitchin already. MS will never stop talking down their competition, and their competitors will do likewise to them. This isn't communism.
Posted anonymously for a reason. Duh.

Yeah, right (4)

unitron (5733) | more than 13 years ago | (#466809)

"There really isn't much value in free," said Miller

Except, of course, to the recipient.

Laptop incompatibilities (1)

jmcneill (256391) | more than 13 years ago | (#466810)

I would have to disagree with this point -- both Linux and NetBSD have run beautifully on any laptop I've used. On the other hand, I've heard nothing but bad stories from instructors at my college about the failed attempt to upgrade the school laptops to Windows 2000. They swear by Windows 98 SE (and there's nothing more funny than seeing a giant BSOD projected onto a screen in the middle of a presentation).

Same to you, but more of it. (1)

digitect (217483) | more than 13 years ago | (#466979)

If this isn't FUD [] , I don't know what is. Isn't it humerous that Microsoft's main argument about Linux is it's business model? Well if their business model is so much better, than what's their worry!

Gandhi said it best:

First they ignore you.
Then they laugh at you.
Then they fight you.
Then you win.

The *Business*... (1)

kreyg (103130) | more than 13 years ago | (#466980)

Well, I'm not much of a business person, but trying to sell something that is available for free always seemed to be a rather unstable revenue stream (although encouraging in light of RIAA/MPAA copyright paranoia).

That said, isn't it futile to argue "against Linux" in the general sense, in the same way one might argue "against pollution?" Linux is what the people making it want it to be. If it's any more, great. As long as people with the skills to improve it want to work on it, it can't be any less. Anybody who thinks differently has a pretty dangerous Reality Distortion Field thing going.

Linux was never meant to be a "business."
Linux was never meant to "destroy Microsoft."

Linux is just the Modern Hacker's dream come true - complete control over their own system/world. That control still has a lot of benefit to the business world.

More FUD (1)

TTop (160446) | more than 13 years ago | (#466981)

It seemed to me that the Microsoft rep was really grasping at straws to find reasons why Linux wouldn't succeed. Because the public companies which have business models based on selling Linux are not doing so hot? Well, maybe they're not doing so hot because Linux is FREE and they're trying to sell it. IBM is embracing Linux stronger than ever. Microsoft seems to be trying to use measurements of traditional corporate viability to judge an open source product and thereby generate FUD (Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt). Yes, Linux on laptops is not the easiest thing, and there may not be hot-swappable CPU support. But Linux is dominating in many server areas and even if it's growth is temporarily stagnant more and more of the general public know about Linux. As it becomes embedded in the public consciousness it will become a more natural option for people and corporations.

Deconstruction of a paragraph. (1)

RedBull (310424) | more than 13 years ago | (#466982)

From the article:
These are three key Linux trends to watch for in 2001: a static growth rate,...
As opposed to windoze "upgrades" every year or two, requiring the consumer to pay for them to keep up-to-date. I think here Herr Miller is confusing "static" with "stable".

...lessening mainstream interest in the open source operating system, ...
I seem to recall an article about an automakers plans to have Linux as the OS for the computers in their "next-generation" cars. Hmm...

and a sharp decline in Linux-based companies' stock value,...
Not like every other computer companies stocks, which have been soaring like the Challenger.

... said Doug Miller, Microsoft's group product manager for competitive strategies.
Competitive strategies?!?! Sounds like this entire article was Mikro$oft Propaganda convieniently shown to the world by Wired.

I would love to comment on this.... (1)

barzok (26681) | more than 13 years ago | (#466983)

But my Whistler installation keeps failing on the boot splash screen after the reboot following with "main" setup stuff. Somehow, I'm not surprised.

Corel getting out of Linux (1)

sydb (176695) | more than 13 years ago | (#466984)

Miller also said there is already definite evidence of Microsoft's predicted slowdown in the Linux marketplace, with "Corel getting out of Linux, (and) VA Linux not meeting the expectations. "For a so-called exploding market, this should not happen. Sales of actual products are relatively flat.

That's funny, I thought that was something to do with this [] .

Re:*yawn* (1)

Anonymous._.Coward (119202) | more than 13 years ago | (#466985)

Very roughly, NT gets an average of 10 intrusions a day whilst Linux is on about 4. If you look at the overall OS share chart [] you'll see that NT has 59% over 21% of Linux. I think that makes them match up about the same.

/me Sits back and awaits a bashing for supporting MS.

Microsoft, +1 Insightful (5)

Stickerboy (61554) | more than 13 years ago | (#466986)

""There really isn't much value in free," said Miller..." opposed to paying $100 for the latest and greatest bug fixes?

Or maybe Doogie was referring to the value in paying hundreds of dollars per machine for a halfway stable OS (Win 2000).

Re:*yawn* (1)

Khalid (31037) | more than 13 years ago | (#466987)

> Don't click here if you use Win9x.

I am too curious ! I did :((

Re:The bottom line (was: FUD) (1)

CoolVibe (11466) | more than 13 years ago | (#466988)

Whoah there. I said we won because they finally see Linux as a threat. From now on, Microsoft will go down hill. They are trying to beat a omnipresent ghost called Free Software. I really hope they will put all their energy in trying to discredit us. They can't beat our price, and userfriendlyness will be here soon.

We practically won the serverroom already, now let's take the desktop from them :)
Slashdot didn't accept your submission? [] will!

Re:Laptop incompatibilities (1)

frknfrk (127417) | more than 13 years ago | (#466989)

My friend has a ThinkPad, and IBM provides all kinds of utilities for it under Linux: APM controls, ports, etc. His laptop looks nice (gnome/etc).

shutdown -h now (1)

necrognome (236545) | more than 13 years ago | (#466990)

Recently I was working on a Java project involving XML and servlets. My programs weren't communicating with each other in the way that I had hoped (I learned Java about a month ago). What did I do? Looked at the source for the Java classes. What a wonderful thing it is, having the source... you can easily discern what kinds of problems you have in your code, and solve them (I failed to cast an object appropriately in a method call). If I didn't have the source, I could have spent a few days wondering what the hell went wrong, as opposed to a few minutes.

This brings me to the issue of BIND and the security problems with Linux. Funning thing is, I'm sure any number of people in the commmunity have the technical ability to solve the problem, and will, because they have the source. How many programmers that don't work for Microsoft will be fixing IIS security holes? Zero.

Better yet, who wants to depend on Microsoft to fix these holes? Which Service Pack will they be in?

Damn it I hate making up these subjects (1)

kosipov (218202) | more than 13 years ago | (#466991)

And "Microsoft is leading the charge with .Net," said Miller. "Linux is not leading anything, it is simply providing a 'free' operating system." This is what bothers me about the future of Linux. What happens if the market changes and the OS isn't an issue anymore? This what has already happened on relatively small level with web browsers and might happen of a much larger level with something in 2-5 years. As a company Microsoft is capable of reinventing itself to adjust to new customer demands. Who would lead the charge in the Linux or the open-source community to create entirely new products?

Target Audience (2)

Xibby (232218) | more than 13 years ago | (#466992)

Obviously the target audience for the recent Microsoft statements is for those who don't take a moment to compare the features, benifits, advantages, and disavantages. And most of the quotes are from marketing personell, so the bottom line is "make the sale" not "help the customer make the best choice for their situation."

There are some area's where Microsoft platforms do excel. Public internet servers and high security aren't one of those areas. But on an internal managed network of Windows 2000 servers and Windows 2000 clients, Microsoft platforms are excellent. The applications are there, and I'm not talking about Office. The real reason many companies are stuck on MS platforms are their business specific applications. Document Managment, MRP/ERP/EDI/etc, shipping software (From UPS, FedEx, and other shipping lines), MLS (reality), and others that I don't deal with on a daily basis are heavily tied to Windows.

So here is my plea. Let's not jump on the FUD bandwagon. Instead, let's sit down and start comparing. Platform A does this better than Platfrom B, but Platform B is better for this than Platform A... In the end you would have an extremely long list of strengths and weakness, and have a list of things to improve (or whine about if you're not into helping the community.) Really people, FUD from Microsoft is not news, it's old hat. It's them seeing their stock value drop a couple point and they need something to get those points back. (And be honest, they're only going to gain a point or two with this, then the next big bug will hit BugTraq.)

It's really time MS started being honest with themselves and their customers (heh...they're probally prefectly honest with their internal developers, after all, how else are the developers going to know what to improve?) but if they were honest with their customers and investors about what is good and bad about their platforms, new bugs, benchmarks, etc. wouldn't have such a huge impact on their stock value, their bottom line.

Sure because doubleclick advertisment on slashdot (1)

Pingo (41908) | more than 13 years ago | (#466993)

Yeah only because slashdot carries doubleclick advertisments on slashdot.

It's so stupid to sell out to the big satan of internet. Check the URL:s of todays advertisment and you will see that it's from doublecklick.

Who is the stupid bastard behind this ????

Leading the way (1)

bitcrank (307295) | more than 13 years ago | (#466994)

"Linux is not leading anything, it is simply providing a 'free' operating system."

Other than a rather dynamic development community, I would have to agree. I don't really see Linux innovating at any level. The current focus seems to be getting the kernel up to snuff and one could argue that has always been it's "agenda" so to speak.

If all MS did was develop an OS we probably wouldn't know who they are anymore.

Or am I wrong? Does Linux make you fundamentally change the way you develop or deploy a solution and do it for the better? That, in the end, is sustainable competitive advantage that a low sticker price cannot provide.


Re:Other OS's (2)

micromoog (206608) | more than 13 years ago | (#466995)

"Microsoft thinks Linux, FreeBSD, RISC OS, Solaris, BeOS, Mac OS, NetBSD, MINIX and many other OSs are doomed, and predicts that many Linux, FreeBSD, RISC OS, Solaris, BeOS, Mac OS, NetBSD, MINIX and many other OS businesses will falter and fail before the end of the year" just doesn't roll off the tongue as well.

Re:Another way of looking at it.... (2)

arthurs_sidekick (41708) | more than 13 years ago | (#466996)

The kicker ... the last bit you 'regexed'

"Windows 2000 does lack serious system management tools"

was stated about "linux 2.4" BY a supposed Linux consultant. I don't know if I want to consult with someone who doesn't appear to understand the difference between the kernel and the other tools one might package with it.

Dumb indicators (3)

laetus (45131) | more than 13 years ago | (#467000)

His indicators:

  1. a static growth rate,
  2. lessening mainstream interest in the open source operating system,
  3. and a sharp decline in Linux-based companies' stock value.

I'll address each.

1. Static growth rate - that's going to eventually happen with any software. Look at adoption of Windows as a internet server system. But here's the kicker, if anything, there's nothing to indicate that Linux's growth rate is doing anything but expanding.

2. Lessening mainstream interest - what a self-serving circular prediction! He's basically saying, one indication that buyers won't be buying Linux is that they're not interested in buying Linux! Umm, excuse me, but that's a) obvious if it happens, and b) again, there's no indication of that happening.

3. Sharp-decline in Linux-based stocks - wow, what a prediction of something already happening. Of course an industry in it's infancy such as Linux is going to spawn new companies that live for a while then die, some stocks will shoot up and then go down. But compare that to every other fledgling industry. Anybody see the same thing happening with some overpriced biotech stocks? But no one is predicting that biotech overall is going to die. If anything, it's going to explode eventually.

All in all, BIG CASE OF FUD.

.Net comparisons (1)

schneidh (241446) | more than 13 years ago | (#467001)

How can they compare .Net to Linux. Linux is an OS and .Net is a environment for creating web applications. Why are they trying to compare apples to oranges? .Net should be compared to EJB/J2EE or something else running on top of Linux.

Re:Keyword.. TRYING.. (2)

Stonehand (71085) | more than 13 years ago | (#467004)

The kernel may be more secure, perhaps. But are the applications, and the configurations as shipped by distributers?

A new user shouldn't have to start by disabling hordes of services enabled by default with little explanation... and shouldn't have to search Deja or post regarding securing a newly installed Linux box; such documents would be good included on disk and *on paper* in a manual, given the utter importance of the topic -- and the number of new installations that are quickly rooted by people who can't believe they've been portscanned and analyzed that quickly.

How many show up with a reasonable hosts.deny setup, even?

Judging from the firewalling HOWTOs, the kernel has good support for this sort of thing -- but how often is this readily enabled?

And vendors could organize support better -- for instance, can you order a CD of updated packages from any vendor (useful for modem users who DON'T want to have to download 100+ MB of updates. I'm not kidding -- there have been distro versions whose updates occupy the better part, or more, of a Zip disk)? Can you subscribe to e-mail updates regarding package upgrades?

It has its good points -- but there are areas where many distros fall short, when used by people for whom Linux is primarily a platform for other tasks, not the focus itself.

Who cares? (1)

mtvsucks (223302) | more than 13 years ago | (#467006)

I started using linux because it was stable, logical and was highly customizable. I really don't care if it has market share or if it's "taking over the enterprise" or if it returns back to the times of "what the hell is linux?". So what if linux "fades away", i'm sure there are thousands of people like me that use it because they like it and not because it's free or because it is the "best enterprise server os". if people really stuck to using the best why is microsoft on the top of anything (well with the notable exception of IIS -=] )?


Re:Laptop incompatibilities (1)

witz (79173) | more than 13 years ago | (#467008)

IBM might be the exception to the typical OEM however, considering their involvement with Linux (*heavy involvement*). What about Compaq, Toshiba, Dell, et al?
Desktops shouldn't be an issue with most OEMs, but laptops have a much higher degree of sophistication.

Sweet troll (5)

Shoeboy (16224) | more than 13 years ago | (#467009)

I'm a fan (and occasional practicioner) of the noble art of trolling, and this one is amazing.
The second paragraph is the best:
These are three key Linux trends to watch for in 2001: a static growth rate, lessening mainstream interest in the open source operating system, and a sharp decline in Linux-based companies' stock value, said Doug Miller, Microsoft's group product manager for competitive strategies.
This is beautiful. It's irrefutable.
Obviously linux growth will slow, you can only grow at an exponential rate for so long before you run out of servers and people to run them.
Similarly with "reduced mainstream press." At linux ceases to be a novelty, the mainstream press will start giving it normal coverage.
Finally, the bankruptcy of linux companies will be a side effect of the venture capital spending spree having caused some linux companies to get funding without a solid buisness plan. With the bursting of the internet bubble, they'll have trouble making that second round of financing.
All three trends are clearly in evidence and obvious.
The clever thing is to use them as proof that linux is doomed.
Doug Miller, I salute you. You have a gift for inciteful comments that appear logically sound at first glance.
If you ever want to start trolling slashdot, let me know. We can hook you up with a low user id account with plenty of karma.

Re:This is it guys!! (2)

maroberts (15852) | more than 13 years ago | (#467014)

An AC wrote:
Hah. Just like Netscape, Novell, Lotus and Wordperfect?
You're joking, right?

No I wasn't joking.

I think that MS have sorta shot themselves in the foot with regard to defeating the people you mentioned. All of the above were (are) applications developers for the MS operating system. In killing them, what Microsoft has said is "If your app is **really** successful on our OS, we'll write a competitor that will wipe you off the market.".

In short, what is the incentive to produce a world class Windows app if you know the 800lb gorilla will try and kill you if you are wildly successful ?

With Open Source, we're after kudos, not money (although if someone waves a wad of tenners in my face I'll bite his hand off), and we tend to contribute to development of products that we don't feel are good enough.

No. 1 Threat is no threat at all.... ? (1)

kenthorvath (225950) | more than 13 years ago | (#467016)

So I'd put the Linux phenomenon really as threat No. 1.

Having said that, let me remind you that Microsoft says (and trust us on this, really!) Linux is not for you. It will HURT your (read: Microsoft's) business and decrease Linux based (read: Microsoft's) stock in the next few years. And the recent security problems with Linux(read: Windows 2000/NT [] call into question whether or not it should be used at all.

Hey! What are you laughing at?! It's bad I tell you! Really, really bad! TRUST ME!

Re:*yawn* (3)

GypC (7592) | more than 13 years ago | (#467017)

You didn't support MS.. you basically just proved that Miller is a liar for falsely implying that Linux has a worse security record than NT.

"Oh twap!"

Re:Linux wont go anywhere... (1)

Schnedt Microne (264752) | more than 13 years ago | (#467018)

The OS/2 nuts were passionate, too. To the point where eventually IBM had to disassociate with them, because they were coming off as cranks. (yes, step right up and relight the flames, we know you're out there, OS/2 Jihad).

Microsoft's marketing people are smart enough to encourage those sorts of people to get out into the street and rant for Linux. It really alienates regular folks who just view computers as tools.

Re:On the other hand... (5)

Majix (139279) | more than 13 years ago | (#467020)

The DNS servers where not running Linux before the crash. Why they are running it now is because Microsoft outsourced the DNS handling to Akamai (you know, the distributed content serving network) to prevent this mistake from happening again. Akamai is one of VA Linux's biggest customers and run virtually all of their servers on Linux.

Re:Laptop incompatibilities (1)

schneidh (241446) | more than 13 years ago | (#467021)

Linux worked great on my Dell Inspriron 3800. The only trouble I had was getting my sound to work, but the ALSA drivers worked great. I even installed the 2.4.0 kernel on it and it runs beautifully.

Keyword.. TRYING.. (1)

TheCeltic (102319) | more than 13 years ago | (#467101)

Yes, they can TRY.. but the bottom line is that Linux is more stable, more flexible and more secure! Let them attempt the FUD.. it won't work and they know it. -Celtic

Not surprising (2)

griffinn (240043) | more than 13 years ago | (#467104)

Microsoft has been rattling about the impending death of Linux for some time. Example: This interview [] with Joachim Kempin, senior VP of Microsoft.

FUD (1)

twist (39662) | more than 13 years ago | (#467109)

Didn't take them long to start with the FUD after finally publicly admitting that Linux is a threat to their core business.

hot swappable hardware (1)

emgeemg (182902) | more than 13 years ago | (#467112)

From the article...

. Linux also lacks some key features that you'd want for a data center such as hot swappable CPUs and memory.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't this a limitation of the x86 architecture? I know, Linux runs on other architectures where this kind of thing is possible but in the context of competiting with MS we're talking about x86 (NT for Alpha, you say? Does anyone even use that?).

My Linux Goes Down... (2)

EXTomar (78739) | more than 13 years ago | (#467116)

...only when I have to put new hardware in the box. Does this mean Microsoft will be forcing people who have Linux to install hardware?

I also think its cute they completely ignore BSD. They also ignore IBM which is not to be ignored. Lets give props where props are due. The combination of open and hardened BSD and open and innovative Linux will mean that Microsoft will on gain market share by strongarm marketering and strategery. ;-)

*yawn* (5)

seizer (16950) | more than 13 years ago | (#467119)

"...recent security problems". Compare NT vs Linux intrusions here [] .

Replace Linux with Windows and re-read (5)

beebware (149208) | more than 13 years ago | (#467121)

It's quite a good article, but I re-read it mentally changing Linux with Windows and the arguments still stood. This time against Microsoft...

If you want to make a convincing argument against something, first make sure that the reasons can't be turned against you...

Richy C.

Oh dear... (1)

CoolVibe (11466) | more than 13 years ago | (#467124)

Let the shitslinging begin! I can't wait to see what M$ will dredge up. Put on your debunking hats! We got work to do! :)
Slashdot didn't accept your submission? [] will!

Linux wont go anywhere... (1)

Wariac (56029) | more than 13 years ago | (#467136)

He fails to take into account the passion that Linux supporters have for their OS. Regardless of it's current failings, they will use it, fix it and make it work.

Re:Linux is going down (1)

Nightpaw (18207) | more than 13 years ago | (#467140)

How does this get moderated as "Insightful"? It's at best a little funny.

A story like this... (1)

Dennis Hopper (265561) | more than 13 years ago | (#467143)

Is nothing more than a troll. We all know that MS wants to discredit Linux, we all realize that Linux is a threat to MS.

I just don't understand why it has to be rehashed on a weekly, if not daily, basis.

In Related News . . . (5)

SimplyCosmic (15296) | more than 13 years ago | (#467146)

Pepsi issued a press release noting Coca Cola's weaker product points, while Ford shocked the world with the stunning announcement that Chevy "sucks".

Over to you, Bob . . .

Re:Yeah, right (1)

unitron (5733) | more than 13 years ago | (#467150)

I see that the trained attack moderators aren't wasting any time.

Re:Laptop incompatibilities (1)

jmcneill (256391) | more than 13 years ago | (#467153)

Although I won't argue about them being idiots :), it was IT services who {performed,attempted} the installation. They're _muuch_ bigger idiots than the instructors.

The bottom line (was: FUD) (1)

CoolVibe (11466) | more than 13 years ago | (#467155)

We Won

What was that saying again? The one from Ghandi? First they laugh at you... (finish it yerself)
Slashdot didn't accept your submission? [] will!

Re:Yeah, right (1)

Dennis Hopper (265561) | more than 13 years ago | (#467157)

To quote another Miller:

"You can get up to 20 minutes of talk for less than a buck".

User interface (2)

RandomPeon (230002) | more than 13 years ago | (#467166)

I know this is an old hat, but I think we won't see Linux on desktops anytime soon.

I saw a demo of the user interface for MS Whistler last night. From Joe User's perspective, it's at least a decade ahead of GNOME or KDE. There's no way we're gonna see Linux on user desktops anytime soon, with Apple and MS going all out here. Add in a couple million dollars of research on making the thing intuitive (even if all the research is crap) and you've got a tough cookie to crack. Whistler finally allows remote login, just like Unixes have decades, but it sure seems neat to non-geeks that you can access your computer from home.

That said, geeks will never want to use this system. It has hundreds of wizards, IE 6 has a dancing puppy dog who will "fetch" your searches, etc. MS has made their consumer OS so hard for high-end users to work with that any geek who runs Win9x now will run away screaming in terror, possibly to Linux (but more likely to Win2K).

Ahh... (2)

Auckerman (223266) | more than 13 years ago | (#467169)

The author mis-spelt

"And the recent security problems with Windows2K, coupled with the lack of key enterprise elements in the new system, really call into question whether Windows2K should be used at all"

Being a Mac user I see/read/hear Trolls all the time. If I responded to every Troll, I would spend the rest of my life doing it. Granted, this is coming from MS, and as such the press is gonna post it, but that doesn't make it anymore than it is: A Troll.

huh? (1)

BigWillieStyle (22009) | more than 13 years ago | (#467171)

"And the recent security problems with Linux, coupled with the lack of key enterprise elements in the new kernel, really call into question whether Linux should be used at all," Miller added. Can someone tell this guy that BIND is not Linux?!

Leading (2)

clinko (232501) | more than 13 years ago | (#467175)

And "Microsoft is leading the charge with .Net," said Miller. "Linux is not leading anything, it is simply providing a 'free' operating system."
Ahem... You might want to look at this... []

Microsoft can't do anything about free.. (5)

xtal (49134) | more than 13 years ago | (#467178)

I'm shocked that people that high up in Microsoft and other "consultancy" firms completely miss what Linux is about. It's not ABOUT money. It never WAS about money, and frankly, redhat, VA Linux, and everything in between can go tits-up tomorrow and it won't make a lick of difference to me. I'm sure there'd be a lot of unhappy investors - but let me say it again, Linux is not about money.

Linus Torvalds did not write linux because he wanted to be rich - although a nice side effect - he wrote it because he wanted to do something; he wanted an operating system that just sucked a little less than all of the other ones out there. That's the beauty of the GPL. That's why I give code away - It did what I wanted, and if someone thinks that it sucks less, then all the power to them!

I use linux because it does what I want, and so do a lot of other people. Linux won't lose because a bunch of ill concieved business models go up in smoke - all that GPL'd code will be there, waiting for the next Linus Torvalds to hack on it and make it suck less. Those drivers weren't written by people who wanted money; they were written by people that just wanted their hardware to work. There's no rocket science in there - just a pile of time.

Unless microsoft is proposing that they ban free development - free as in speech - then there's a segment of the market that they'll never, ever get - and that's the real linux mainstream, the core of people that use it because it sucks less and makes their lives easier. Does anything else really matter? If you're happy with MS, fine. Enjoy. I'm not.

So why are they using Linux DNS Servers? (5)

matth (22742) | more than 13 years ago | (#467179)

So if Microsoft is so against this horrid O/S because of security problems.. why are they using some Linux DNS Services?

Look Here For The Info []

Let's see which name servers Microsoft is using right now: 1d20h7m8s IN NS DNS4.CP.MSFT.NET. 1d20h7m8s IN NS DNS5.CP.MSFT.NET. 1d20h7m8s IN NS DNS7.CP.MSFT.NET. 1d20h7m8s IN NS DNS6.CP.MSFT.NET. 1d20h7m8s IN NS z1.msft.akadns.COM. 1d20h7m8s IN NS z2.msft.akadns.COM. 1d20h7m8s IN NS z6.msft.akadns.COM. 1d20h7m8s IN NS z7.msft.akadns.COM.

Let's do a queso on the last four.

$ sudo queso z1.msft.akadns.COM:53 * Linux 2.1.xx/2.2.xx
$ sudo queso z2.msft.akadns.COM:53 * Linux 2.1.xx/2.2.xx
$ sudo queso z6.msft.akadns.COM:53 * Linux 2.1.xx/2.2.xx
$ sudo queso z7.msft.akadns.COM:53 * Linux 2.1.xx/2.2.xx

It's Linux, all right.

Re:In Related News . . . (4)

wiredog (43288) | more than 13 years ago | (#467180)

And, on slashdot, Chevy responded with "friends don't let friends drive Fords"

Stunning prediction (2)

gregbaker (22648) | more than 13 years ago | (#467182)

The first line of the article:
Microsoft thinks Linux is doomed, and predicts that many Linux businesses will falter and fail before the end of the year.

I think Microsoft is doomed because many businesses that make products for Windows will fail before the end of the year.

Honestly, journalists should be forced to pass some kind of critical thinking test before being given a pen.

And while we're talking about critical thinking, does anyone notice anything fishy about the assertion that "MS's number 1 threat will fail by the end of the year" and on the other hand, "What monopoly? We don't know what you're talking about."

Talking out of two sides of their mouths (1)

ibirman (176167) | more than 13 years ago | (#467194)

On one hand, Ballmer says:

That really is Job 1 for us

On the other, they say

Microsoft thinks Linux is doomed, and predicts that many Linux businesses will falter and fail before the end of the year

So which is it? If it is irrelevant, how can it be their #1 threat?

Silliness... (1)

Starbreeze (209787) | more than 13 years ago | (#467200)

This is silly! Of course MS is concerned about a competitive operating system that is *free*. Linus could find similar points with MS... I hardly think that Linux is going down because MS says so :P

Free does not sustain a business," Miller said. "Development costs money, QA (quality assurance) costs money, support costs money. Of course it does... which is why there is an open-source community. I'd much rather go in search of drivers for my hardware for my linux box than pay several hundred dollars (is that what it costs?) for a MS product.

Companies/politicians do this all the time... negative publicity about their competitors. Do we really have a need to be worried?

Watch out for Caldera (1)

chamont (25273) | more than 13 years ago | (#467203)

Many Linux companies may go down, but when the dust settles I see two big ones--RH and Caldera.

RH, because, of course, preliminary market share. People still associate them with Linux (for better or worse), so people will run them for a while.

But the sleeper, folks, will be Caldera. I wouldn't be one bit surprised to see Caldera take the top spot in Linux market share (at least in the server/enterprise arena). They now have a _proprietary_ product called Volution to centrally manage hundreds of servers from a single console. Of course, this is a means to an end--the end result being scores of more Linux servers per enterprise.

Finally, with the acquisition of SCO, Caldera (and now Linux) can start to compete with the bigger enterprise customers. LKP (linux kernel personality) will give people the "environment" of Linux with the scalability of UnixWare. Yes, people bash UnixWare on /., but most have no idea that it absolutely smokes Linux on the high end. It's a joke to compare the numbers. Oracle runs flawlessly. This gives a consistent environment from small internet servers, to big database clusters.

Should be fun to watch.

This is it guys!! (1)

maroberts (15852) | more than 13 years ago | (#467206)

This seems to be the first year that Microsoft have genuinely gone "Oh s**t!!. There's an OS that's as good as ours and it's free!". They seem to be getting everyone to spread as much brown stuff about Linux as possible in order to fend us off.

Congratulations everyone, they're in your sights; now go in for the kill!

Re:Laptop incompatibilities (2)

witz (79173) | more than 13 years ago | (#467208)

I'd also be interested in knowing about BSD and Linux on newish laptops. Most OEMs are focusing on Win2k for laptops in terms of drivers/compatibilities. For example, Compaq's MX00 line is fully Windows 2000 Logo'd. The brand new M700's run 2000 without a single driver needed outside of the Windows 2000 CD, with full ACPI/USB/PCMCIA support. Hard to beat that.
Does Linux or BSD install? Do you get network functionality from the built-in NiC? How difficult is it to get X to run on something other than the standard VGA server? I'm not flaming here, I'm pretty curious, I've never even tried a BSD or Linux on a laptop.

I understand now... (2)

f5426 (144654) | more than 13 years ago | (#467211)

From the artice:

"Free does not sustain a business," Miller said. "Development costs money, QA (quality assurance) costs money, support costs money."

That's *exactly* why microsoft have such a high margin...



Re:Leading (2)

CoolVibe (11466) | more than 13 years ago | (#467213)

Yeah, and .NET isn't even officially released yet. Who are they kidding? Typically Microsoft to say that they are leading iwth *vapourware*
Slashdot didn't accept your submission? [] will!

one important point (5)

kaisyain (15013) | more than 13 years ago | (#467214)

That is hinted at is that in the free software world it is often much harder to get "big" features implemented in a timely fashion. (In the article they are specifically talking about enterprise features but those are just one particular kind.) I mean, take a look at how quickly commercial operating systems like BeOS and Windows NT supported journalling file systems. Then take a look at how widespread it is among free operating systems. How many clustering solutions are there for linux? Now compare that to the number of mp3 playing front ends. The easy stuff gets done over and over again while the hard stuff gets done once. If it gets done at all.

With free OSes there is often little in the way of financial backing for more ambitious undertakings. Look at who extraordinary the recent support of the perl hacker is. I mean, it makes front page news that some guy gets to spend 100% of his time working on improving the product. When was the last time you saw Microsoft trumpeting the fact that they had hired a person to work full time on Visual Basic?

Of course, it's not IMPOSSIBLE to get good funding to implement more difficult features in free software. IBM and SGI are both doing so, more or less. However, the article does mention that many/most linux based companies are suffering from financial difficulties, which in turn will make it harder for people to get the kind of funding they need to do more ambitious work.

In many ways he's right (2)

Metal Machine Music (255620) | more than 13 years ago | (#467216)

I think in the long term open source will fail.

The problem is that things are getting more and more complicated - very soon, things like SMTP will be obsolete, and only groupware like Exchange will be viable - simply because it's more productive for a company to have groupware.

There isn't the money in open source to be able to afford to produce things like this - because there's no revenue in giving things away, companies can't afford the programmers to produce the complicated products of the future.

Even Netscape, bankrolled by one of the world's largest companies, AOL, can't keep up, via open source, with expensive protocols like XSL and so on.

There's just not enough money.

However, that comes a stage down the line.

For the moment, companies are happy to except vanilla products like Apache and qmail, which do something simple, but do it efficiently.

For these products, open source is viable - there is none of the strategic problems involved with say co-ordinating an open-source GUI, which only a commercial company, with control over its staff can do.

This will take a while though - the first thing to happen will be the death of consumer open source. I posted an article [] on this to Kuro5hin [] , and although the poll died, the majority of people agreed with my conclusion that open source isn't viable for consumer software.

I invite you to read my arguments, which, briefly summarised are as follows:

no direction - there's no-one who can find what the focus groups want and then enforce it

no money - you can't afford to compete if you don't have enough money to do so]

a mistaken belief as to the ability of users. Open source relies on a hobbyist's views of computing, which states that everyone knows how to program - false; modern programs are exceptionally complicated and most users are not programmers.

no innovation. Because there's no money for r+d, there's little innovation and open source plays catchup all the time. Furthermore, there's no incentive for improvement - open source doesn't have to make improvements like MS does - they don't have to make qmail v6 much better than v5 ytto get people to upgrade as MS would with Outlook 2002 vs 2000.

The giants have woken up. (3)

Lover's Arrival, The (267435) | more than 13 years ago | (#467218)

Before this point, Linux could wallow in its obscurity. But now it is being attacked by marketing. Marketing will be the death of Linux, from within and without. Within, Linux is mainly promoted by marketing companies these days. The ere of the lonely advocate is gone.

Problem is, the marketers always make unfounded claims. Hence, the promotion of Linux is gradually deviating away from what it can actually do. This puts off the core group that would be interested in Linux.

From the outside, it is being attacked by the mighty marketing machines of MS, Apple and Sun. This two probged attack is bad news.

Perception id the most important part of making something popular. When the perception varies from the performance, people get disappointed. This is beggining to happen with Linux.

They fuck you up, your mum and dad.

Analysts (2)

gimple (152864) | more than 13 years ago | (#467232)

I work for a small (in body count) enterprise software company. One day I was poking around looking for what analysts were saying about us, and I found a report that the Gartner Group had done on our market space.

On Gartner's Magic Quadrant, we were placed smack dab in the lower left--meaning niche player, don't think about them. I contact the analyst who wrote the piece and challenged him. His response was, "You should count yourself lucky to even be on my radar."

Being slightly naive, I told him that given the opportunity, I could prove that we were not a niche player. He recommended scheduling an analyst review, which I did. It turned out that an analyst review was merely a sales opportunity for Gartner to sell their services.

The point of this little missive is this. You can't trust analysts like IDC, Gartner, Aberdeen, etc. There may be exceptions, but they are primarily on the payroll of those whom they write about.

funny (2)

wishus (174405) | more than 13 years ago | (#467234)

funny how microsoft just doesn't get the open source development model. they work real hard and put together windows 2000, and, except for some service packs, call it good for another few years.

they don't seem to understand that a kernel release isn't like that. sure, it's a new kernel, and it has some cool new features, but "linux" isn't putting all it's hopes on the success of this one kernel.

and if we decide we want a new feature, we'll code one up and release it as the next kernel.

if microsoft wants to "beat" us, they should first understand how we work, instead of assuming that we use their glorified concept of business operating systems.


On the other hand... (1)

Monkey Toucher (225783) | more than 13 years ago | (#467238)

Big deal. Cynics could claim that Linux is the reason the Microsoft DNS crashed recently.

Other OS's (2)

beebware (149208) | more than 13 years ago | (#467240)

Don't forget that there is FreeBSD [] , RISC OS [] , Solaris [] , BeOS [] , Mac OS [] , NetBSD [] , MINIX [] and many other [] OS other than Linux [] and Windows [] .

I think Microsoft remembers how it became so big, and just doesn't want any other OS to do the same - hence just 'attack' your biggest competitor and leave all the others alone for the time being.

Richy C.

going down ?? (1)

n3m6 (101260) | more than 13 years ago | (#467242)

can't find the drivers ?? which drivers ?? stocks going down for both VA and corel ?? ermm.. thought this was a recession .. and m$ hasn't been doing too well either ..

when the world comes to an end.

LOL (1)

348 (124012) | more than 13 years ago | (#467244)

Miller also said there is already definite evidence of Microsoft's predicted slowdown in the Linux marketplace, with "Corel getting out of Linux, (and) VA Linux not meeting the expectations. "For a so-called exploding market, this should not happen.

No shit. The "oooh Linux is going to be everything to everyone fatasy" has been over for quite a while. no ones really hanging on to the thought that Linux based apps will outplace Microsofts productivity apps anyway.

One Thing That Needs To Be Done... (1)

elefantstn (195873) | more than 13 years ago | (#467247)

Somebody please insert obigatory "First they laugh at you" Gandhi quote here.

laptop support (1)

Sharkeys-Day (25335) | more than 13 years ago | (#467248)

"But you probably wouldn't want to run Linux on a laptop, unless the manufacturer supports Linux; otherwise, it's a real chore to find and install the right hardware drivers."

Obviously spoken by one who has never attempted to run Windows NT on a laptop. NT doesn't even support inserting or removing PCMCIA cards.

I just wish someone would modularize the Linux floppy and CDROM drivers, so I could hotswap them while running Linux on my laptop.

Progress (1)

levik (52444) | more than 13 years ago | (#467262)

I actually think that the community here has matured quite a bit since a couple of years back.

Used to be that anytime someone criticized Linux, everyone would start bitching about how wrong and off base they are, and the discussion boards'd be full of posts proclaiming how windows sucks, with their main argument being the ability to substitute a dollars sign for the "S" in "MS". Those posts are still there, but a much larger portion of people now recognize that while Linux is a good OS, it is still weak on some fronts. (This [] Freshmeat article on Linux Browsers is a good example of this attitude).

I think the Linux comunity as a whole has matured and become able to realistically appraise their current situation, which makes the outlook for the future of Linux very optimistic.

Re:hot swappable hardware (1)

perlmonky (171634) | more than 13 years ago | (#467265)

Not to mention the fact that IBM is now
supporting linux on there s390 which is the
ultimate in hot-swap capability. Let's see
WinXX(SE,CE,ME,FU) run on that architecture.

Desperation? (2)

Grendel Drago (41496) | more than 13 years ago | (#467268)

What are we supposed to think? They're acting as if they were in the throes of death (which they're not, are they?), what with the "Linux will destroy us!"/"Linux is nothing!" flip-flopping.

I don't think that Miller really addresses anything, except the fact that Microsoft has an assload of resources to put behind service and support, while anyone using Linux must rely on their own IT department or third-party providers.

Innovation? Aside from cosmetic improvements, what's so much better about Windows now than two years ago? Linux, on the other hand, has a completely new VM (the benefits of which will start outweighing the pain that it's brought to kernel hackers any day now), the LVM, journaling file systems which will be included in the mainstream kernel RSN, a completely overhauled windowing system... (I know, X runs on BSD and Solaris too.)

Besides, what major improvements *haven't* been thought of in some university/IBM thinktank and implemented in a mainstream distribution by someone else?

Bah. He's only making himself look ridiculous.

-grendel drago

Miller's track record (3)

smartin (942) | more than 13 years ago | (#467269)

Doug Miller does not have a great track record at predicting the future, considering that M$ scoped up his previous company Softway Systems for a song.

Another way of looking at it.... (2)

ajs (35943) | more than 13 years ago | (#467274)

Let's see if regular expressions improve this glop any, shall we?

"Based on the warnings from the developers and confusing messages from the company, it is clear the long-heralded Windows 2000 is a long way from being ready for business use," said Sherman. "The features in it are just the beginning, still raw technology."

But some Windows developers say that the newly released OS was just meant to be a beginning.

"Windows 2000 does lack serious system management tools, but there's a slew of new products coming down the ramp very soon that will bring Windows into even more enterprises," said someone....

"Recent security problems?" (2)

omarius (52253) | more than 13 years ago | (#467275)

For Bob's sake, it took me like 15 minutes to download, compile, and install BIND after I got the security notice from CERT.

Meanwhile, I found recently that someone FTP'd a packet sniffer to my w2k box. Why? How? I don't know. I have anonymous access disabled, and passwords on all the accounts. Maybe if this product came with some reasonable fscking documentation I'd have a clue.

The only reason I have this win2k POS is so many of my customers have bought into MS's "if your ISP doesn't support FrontPage, you don't have a real ISP" bull.

It pisses me off.

Rant off,


Watch out. The FUD is coming (3)

rgmoore (133276) | more than 13 years ago | (#467294)

From the article:

Lately, Microsoft has vacillated between dismissing Linux entirely and seeing it as a vast and looming threat on the competitive landscape.

That's not Microsoft vacillating. That's MS's typical FUD machine in action. They've decided that Linux is a serious threat, so now they're trying to undermine it with vague fears. This is typical Microsoft in action. The more they fear a competitor's product, the more they try to dismiss it publically as a credible product, claim that its suppliers are going into the tank, etc. Vigorous blasting by MS is just evidence that it really is a threat.

Re:The bottom line (was: FUD) (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 13 years ago | (#467296)

But if we won, why are we stuck using all this shitty software? (Netscape/Mozilla, Office Suites, Imaging Software, etc. etc. etc.) :-(

You can enjoy the victory, I'm starting to wish we lost, like those Mac and Windows users who can just turn on their computers and get things done....

Re:On the other hand... (1)

CoolVibe (11466) | more than 13 years ago | (#467300)

Before they had akamaized DNS servers they were off the net, remember? That was *without* linux.

Your turn.
Slashdot didn't accept your submission? [] will!

The point of the article . . . (1)

igbrown (79452) | more than 13 years ago | (#467302)

. . . is whether or not Linux oriented buisnesses will be able to survive more realistic, post-bubble valuations. The articles subject doesn't take the OS itself to task, just the viability of business models based on free and open-source software. Anyone out there feel like making an arguement FOR the business models of VALinux or RedHat?

This just out (1)

Bob Abooey (224634) | more than 13 years ago | (#467303)


AP news 2001 - A Coke executive states that water as a beverage is doomed, expecting most water companies to be out of business by the end of the year

"We think that most people don't see the value of free beverages." states Less Cluefull, senior Coke executive. "We have seen that water just doesn't quench the thirst of employees who are working in large enterprise operations. Most people who have tried it end up coming back to coke. It's the real thing ya know"

Coke, a world leader in the beverage business has seen it's marketshare drop with the popularity of water in recent years. Less went on to say "Most of our focus has been on quenching the thirst of people who surf the internet, they have very special, high end needs to keep them productive, Coke meets those needs. Besides, they like to be able to call us for support if they have trouble opening a can up. You can't do that with water ya know"

God, the inventor of water, was not available for comment.

MS *is* better than Linux (4)

CleverNickName (129189) | more than 13 years ago | (#467323)

From the article:

Doug Miller, Microsoft's group product manager for competitive strategies,says, " the new Linux kernel lacks some of the key elements required for enterprise use".

Well, there it is right there. Now we know why there were so many problems with the Enterprise: Starfleet was running Windows.

Re:On the other hand... (1)

matth (22742) | more than 13 years ago | (#467326)

Not really.. I personally did a DIG on the ms domain while it was down and they used only their own Windoze boxes to provide DNS.... after the failing DNS days.. they added the new DNS through the outsourcing...

Re:This is it guys!! (1)

Mr-Pope (245456) | more than 13 years ago | (#467329)

There's an OS that's as good as ours...

Try better.

can Windows be beaten on the desktop? (5)

dboyles (65512) | more than 13 years ago | (#467330)

I'm probably a typical Windows > Linux convertee. Up until about 18 months ago I used Windows and Windows alone. A few months before I switched to Linux I started a private FTP server (for legal files, mind you) on my computer that was in my dorm. Well I got tired of rebooting every day, so I made the Big Leap. I started off dual booting, then moved to a Linux-only system about a year later. I recently got a laptop that dual boots, but only because I have to use certain Windows applications for school.

So I'm a Linux user. But I don't think Microsoft cares. The reason is simple: both of my copies of Windows (one 95 and one 98) are licensed, as they came with my computers (both Dell). Microsoft is getting paid even if I don't use their software. Most of you probably know the name this has been given: the Microsoft tax.

So I really don't think Microsoft gives a damn about the desktop market, for the most part; they've got it locked up. Server market is a different story. The article makes some good points. I don't think there's much of a market for "Linux companies," perhaps with the exception of the well-knowns like Red Hat. But does Microsoft really have to fear Red Hat? I don't think so.

Why does this even MATTER? (1)

SisterRay45 (151982) | more than 13 years ago | (#467331)

I really don't understand why if Microsoft really thinks Linux sucks as much as it does, why do they bother even talking about it?

The fact is that Linux doesn't suck. In recent benchmarks Linux 2.4 running Tux completely blew away Windows...even on lesser hardware. They know this and they also know that the /. crowd seems to care whenever someone at Microsoft says "linux".

When do we grow up people? This is foolish, how long will it be before we just don't care about such things. While, it is good to question your convictions, would reading something that Microsoft says about Linux change your mind about your operating system of choice. I mean come on!

So instead of caring about this bs, go out and write some code, submit bug reports, or just use Gnu/Linux...whatever you want to do...just don't waste time with this stuff. Please.

Best wishes,

Jon Swinghammer

Re:User interface (1)

unitron (5733) | more than 13 years ago | (#467332)

"IE 6 has a dancing puppy dog who will "fetch" your searches"

They're trying to make us take back all the bad things we ever said about the paper clip (and this sounds like just the thing to do it).

The fact that it took them 4 years tells you everything you need to know about MS "innovation".

It's a bird! It's a plane! It's... (2)

Dirtside (91468) | more than 13 years ago | (#467333)


Well, let's see.. (3)

update() (217397) | more than 13 years ago | (#467354)

Many really good points, and many other equally bad ones.

Honestly, I don't see much in the way of either. To summarize, with my take on them:

Free software is not turning out to be profitable for developers

I'd say so far no one has proved him wrong. Hell, the distro makers are selling software someone else writes and they can't make money.

The 2.4 kernel is "raw technology" and not "ready for business use"

I'm not sure what he meant by that -- he and the people responding to him seem to be confusing the kernel with the platform.

IDC says Linux server growth has stopped

IDC suggests otherwise.

"Microsoft is leading the charge with .Net. Linux is not leading anything, it is simply providing a 'free' operating system."

Well, Linux certainly is never leading anything except for ever more ornate window managers. And MS is blowing their usual hot air with .Net.

Linux development is slower than Windows development.

Probably true for developers with Windows experience, not true for Unix developers.

Linux businesses are doing badly. "For a so-called exploding market, this should not happen. Sales of actual products are relatively flat."

If we're talking about desktop software, that's certainly correct. Corel Linux apps, Applixware, Quake III - pretty much all bleak news on that front.

Re:Laptop incompatibilities (1)

Schnedt Microne (264752) | more than 13 years ago | (#467355)

Up until quite recently, the PC Card support on Linux was a 'bag on the side' effort. A kludge pasted onto the kernel.

That's why I generally ran NetBSD on my 486 laptop instead of Linux.

The situation has improved recently, though.

Microsoft PR: An Analysis (1)

n3rd (111397) | more than 13 years ago | (#467359)

...also contends that the latest release of the Linux kernel, 2.4, doesn't have the features required for widespread business use.

Mr. Miller doesn't go on to name which features 2.4 is missing. Linux has a journaling file system, and has had SMP support since 2.2. Could anyone else, or perhaps Mr. Miller himself get more specific as to which features 2.4 is missing?

And the recent security problems with Linux...

All OSes have security problems Mr. Miller. Windows, all the UNIXes, VMS, Mac OS and BeOS have all had security problems at one time or another. It's a fact of life that all software has bugs, and when you get into millions of lines of code (such as an OS), you will find there are many bugs, and they're inevatable. What puts an OS above the others is how the maintainers of that OS deal with bugs and the time they take to correct the bugs. In the case of Open Source, it is dealt with in a straightforward manner, and very quickly.

...Linux also lacks some key features that you'd want for a data center such as hot swappable CPUs and memory.

I thought this was a shortcoming of the x86 architecture, not Linux. Can someone confirm or deny this for me? Also, does Windows NT support hot swapping of CPUs and RAM?

Development costs money, QA (quality assurance) costs money, support costs money...

This has to be my favorite anti-Linux argument. Even thought Mr. Miller fails to mention it, all these things can be said about all of Microsoft's products as well.

Miller claimed that recently released numbers from IDC System Software Research show that "Linux growth in server OS share has been flat for two quarters, and Unix and Novell continue to fall....IDC manager Al Gillen would not confirm Miller's analysis.

Typical Microsoft FUD at its best, and in this case, it's confirmed FUD.

Frankly, I see most of Mr. Miller's statment as accusations that are not backed up by facts. If he was to tell me why Linux wasn't ready for the enterprise and where exactly Linux's "hidden costs" become apparent, then I would perhaps take his side.

Since he presents no evidence to backup his statements, I have no reason to beleive any of them.

Re:My Linux Goes Down... (1)

the Man in Black (102634) | more than 13 years ago | (#467362)

...Microsoft will only gain market share by strongarm marketeering and strategy...

True, however, history shows that these are areas where Microsoft is second to none. It's obviously worked so far. If there's anything we should have learned from the past few years of American financial/technological history, it's that What's right or what works better means nothing in the face of what people think is right and works better. Public mindshare tends to lead to market share...this is how Windows won dominance in the first place.

Perhaps Microsoft will be able to convince the world that Linux is 'inferior'....but it would take some serious FUD in the face of Linux' proven superiority in several areas, specifically that of servers (file,internet).

--Just Another Pimp A$$ Perl Hacker

This reminds me... (4)

Auckerman (223266) | more than 13 years ago | (#467363)

THis reminds me of George W. Bush's campain for the Republican nomination. Vote for me, I'm a winner. You say it long enough, people beleive it. Take this comment from the Troll quoted in the article:

"So in some senses (that) puts the Linux phenomenon and the Unix phenomenon at the top of the list"

Unix phenomenon? You mean the fact that most servers run Unix and not WIndows? This is very telling. An uneducated businessman will read this and think, "Gee, Windows must be under attack by this thing called Unix." which by impication means Unix is the minority.

If you use the language of a champion, you will project the fact you are the winner by default and people will all beleive you are the winner. That's the best advertising anyone can get. "Use Window2k, it's the future". But the problem is, there are a lot of people who don't know that Microsofts future is Unix's yesterday...

Difficult to install Linux on a laptop, try Win2k (2)

JeffL (5070) | more than 13 years ago | (#467364)

"But you probably wouldn't want to run Linux on a laptop, unless the manufacturer supports Linux; otherwise, it's a real chore to find and install the right hardware drivers.

Has this guy ever tried to install a version of Windows that the laptop did not ship with on a laptop? I have just been going through all kinds of painful hoops to get Windows 2000 on some type of Thinkpad (use a mini Linux distro to copy ME to hard disk, install; copy Win2k to hardisk, upgrade). I also have to deal with a Sony Vaio where not all of the Windows 2000 drivers are available for download, so no memory stick under W2k (works fine under Linux).

At least with Linux the hardware drivers are mostly in two spots: the kernel and XFree86. 99% of the time if Linux supports the hardware the driver is in the latest kernel. Run make menuconfig, do you see your hardware? If so it is supported at at least some level. Under Windows it is can be goose chase on google to find the manufacturer or oem and see if they have a driver, which may or may not work.

I realize this guy is just FUDing, and I have down the equivilant of rise to his troll, but I have more difficulty installing Windows 95/98/ME/NT/2K on random hardware than I have in installing linux on a bleeding edge laptop.

MS is full of it (1)

roman_mir (125474) | more than 13 years ago | (#467365)

If Linux is dead, why talk about it? If Linux is not a threat, why bother wasting money and time on expensive software engineers figuring out reasons for Linux to be dead? If Linux is not competition, why are MS folks bothering?

BTW., Unix is not phenomen, NT is. It's phenomenal that NT is still used on the server side given that there are so many good Unix, AIX and Linux versions.
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