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Study Finds Online Cheating Is Infectious

Soulskill posted more than 2 years ago | from the can-we-blame-jenny-mccarthy-for-this dept.

Education 110

Freddybear writes "A study of online gamers in the Steam community finds that those who are friends with cheaters are more likely to begin cheating themselves. From the article: 'First up, cheats stick together. The data shows that cheaters are much more likely to be friends with other cheaters. Cheating also appears to be infectious. The likelihood of a fair player becoming labelled as a cheater in future is directly correlated with this person's number of friends who are cheaters. So if you know cheaters, you are more likely to become one yourself. Cheating spreads like flu through this community. Finally, being labelled as a cheat seems to significantly affect social standing. Once a person is labelled as a cheat, they tend to lose friends. Some even cut themselves off from friends by increasing their privacy settings.'"

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So.... (5, Funny)

ak_hepcat (468765) | more than 2 years ago | (#38484694)

This isn't about my ex-wife....

Awkward post then.

Ex wife? (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38484838)

No problemo [imgur.com]

Re:So.... (1)

Billly Gates (198444) | more than 2 years ago | (#38485128)

Funny I was thinking the same with my exwife.

Sadly, I was serious too for about 5 seconds until I got the conclusion it talks about people cheating games.

Re:So.... (1)

datavirtue (1104259) | more than 2 years ago | (#38485314)

You guys have issues, but anyway. What is the point of cheating at a game that you play because someone designed the challenge--that you pay for? Doesn't make much sense to me. Cheats always seemed like something for little kids. Game cheats act to rob you of the value of the game.

Re:So.... (1)

datavirtue (1104259) | more than 2 years ago | (#38485330)

Forgot to insert requisite Italian joke. [Disclaimer: I'm part Italian.]

Re:So.... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38486452)

I freely admit to having cheated/hacked games. I often do so after I have exploited all value of playing the game fairly. To be honest after having beaten the game sometimes the only way you an extend the fun of a game by hacking/cheating to find hidden avenues of entertainment that did not exist before.

Re:So.... (2)

cduffy (652) | more than 2 years ago | (#38486538)

Cheating in a game can be fun in and of itself -- reverse-engineering the checksums used for saved games, finding offsets in a hex editor, tweaking the emulator you're playing your game in to allow editing of memory state and the like is something I consider legitimate entertainment.

...now, cheating in multiplayer games? Nothing legitimate about that whatsoever.

Re:So.... (2)

lightknight (213164) | more than 2 years ago | (#38486810)

Agreed. When you're playing by yourself, there's nothing more stress-relieving than switching on god mode after a bad day, and punishing your enemies. At that point, it's not about a challenge, or proving yourself, or learning, or whatever; it's mind-bleach. Boss yelling at you? Teacher being a bitch? Cop handing you a ticket for doing 65 in a 50, with no one else on the road? God mode is how you ensure the next 30 minutes of your life will go well, save your computer gets hit with a lightning bolt.

However, when it comes to multiplayer, no cheating. You have an actual human being(s) playing a game with you, and they are looking to have some fun. And there's no finer victory (or salve for the soul) than beating your opponent without having to resort to cheating; there's something about watching your fleet crush your (temporary) enemy's base or chasing his avatar with the Quad + BFG, through careful planning or quick reflexes, that amuses all gamers.Losing to a cheater is no defeat; and beating a cheater doesn't feel like a victory.

 

Re:So.... (1)

Anonymus (2267354) | more than 2 years ago | (#38487348)

Just like a lot of people release anger by yelling at other people, some people feel the need to stress other people in order to relieve their own stress.

Both of those sorts of people deserve to be smacked down every time they attempt it.

Re:So.... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38488412)

Beating a cheater does still feel like a victory, especially when your reaction to and dominance of whatever it was (speed hacking, teleporting, some inordinately accurate fire or glitched character statistics) resembles this [youtube.com] .

Re:So.... (1)

517714 (762276) | more than 2 years ago | (#38487372)

That isn't cheating, it's simply playing a different game.

Re:So.... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38487666)

Nothing may be "legitimate" about it (whatever that means), but it is still host to infinite delights in the same manner online trolling [goo.gl] is said to be.

Re:So.... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38486994)

For some people, there is more game in attempting to break the game, than in playing the game as intended.

For example; I spend more time in Skyrim doing stupid things to see what I can break than I do following quest lines. I can entertain myself for a solid hour by dropping very large quantities of cabbage on the top of a building and watching the chaos in the town below....

For others the "fun" is about the win. They cheat in PvP games, and garner pleasure both from winning and from the suffering of those they are using exploits against.

Many people assume that the goal of a game is to play within the bounds of the rules and succeed. But others believe that the "fun" is found by doing whatever the fuck you want as long as it makes you smile.

The value of a game is in the mind of the player :)

Re:So.... (1)

antdude (79039) | more than 2 years ago | (#38487060)

Male geeks/nerds don't have any women so that's a lie about your former wife! :P

Makes sense (3)

backslashdot (95548) | more than 2 years ago | (#38484698)

Not just in online gaming, but in other things too.

Re:Makes sense (1)

inviolet (797804) | more than 2 years ago | (#38484774)

Not just in online gaming, but in other things too.

Well sure. We're social creatures, and so we look to our fellow tribesmen for cues on what behavior is acceptable. Having others cheating gives us a sense of permission to do likewise.

Add to this the fact that online interactions do not carry the normal risk of disapproving looks, shame attacks, and damaging the reputation of one's name. Such things are vital in maintaining a society's integrity, and they are almost completely missing online.

Re:Makes sense (4, Insightful)

Ethanol-fueled (1125189) | more than 2 years ago | (#38484874)

There are 2 major types of cheating:

The acceptable kind, which serves to spare the user the expense of unnecessary tedium. They include using a bot to automate grinding in WoW and unfairly receiving help during tests for mandatory fluff classes that will have no effect on your future.

The unacceptable kind, which are blatant misrepresentation of true skill. Those include exploiting a bug in WoW to make you invincible and a prospective structural engineer cheating their engineering classes.

Re:Makes sense (5, Insightful)

Gaygirlie (1657131) | more than 2 years ago | (#38484934)

The acceptable kind, which serves to spare the user the expense of unnecessary tedium. They include using a bot to automate grinding in WoW and unfairly receiving help during tests for mandatory fluff classes that will have no effect on your future.

Why is it "acceptable" then? I atleast do not find it acceptable to use a bot to do anything like that, it still gives you an edge over those people who stay completely honest.

Re:Makes sense (5, Insightful)

CrimsonAvenger (580665) | more than 2 years ago | (#38485466)

Why is it "acceptable" then?

Generally, when someone speaks of the "acceptable" forms of cheating, they mean "the forms of cheating I use"....

And I'm pleased to see that someone managed to start justifying cheating within a handful of posts. When I read online gaming forums discussing cheating, it generally takes not more than six comments to find someone justifying cheating....

Re:Makes sense (2)

Gaygirlie (1657131) | more than 2 years ago | (#38485516)

Generally, when someone speaks of the "acceptable" forms of cheating, they mean "the forms of cheating I use"....

Indeed, that's why I posed the question, I want him to formulate proper arguments for why one form of cheating is good while another form of cheating isn't. I mean, it IS still cheating, it wouldn't be called cheating if it was acceptable and within granted limits, so it's kind of an oxymoron in and of itself.

And I'm pleased to see that someone managed to start justifying cheating within a handful of posts. When I read online gaming forums discussing cheating, it generally takes not more than six comments to find someone justifying cheating....

I personally am strongly against cheating; I do not befriend anyone who does that, when I lead a guild in WoW I actively kicked people from the guild whom I caught from such behaviour and reported them to GMs and so on. I just simply find cheating extremely detestable.

Re:Makes sense (3, Insightful)

10101001 10101001 (732688) | more than 2 years ago | (#38485818)

I want him to formulate proper arguments for why one form of cheating is good while another form of cheating isn't. I mean, it IS still cheating, it wouldn't be called cheating if it was acceptable and within granted limits, so it's kind of an oxymoron in and of itself.

Well, how about a silly example of a form of cheating I see as acceptable. I like the game Mega Man X3 a good bit. I've played through it plenty of times. There's a certain spot in the game where a bot with two morning stars for arms sits fully blocking the path. However, it is the case that the hit detection is a bit off, so it's actually possible to, if timed right, do an air dash through the very upper part of the bot without taking damage and proceeding forward. Now, as I see it, this is acceptable because it both exploits a glitch in the game (questionable hit detection) while simultaneously being a rather moot point (it's a single player game and the action is done more to make the play every so slightly faster and more enjoyable--the very fact that one can glitch is part of what makes it enjoyable).

Now, the best argument I can hear against doing the above is that to exploit the glitch cheats oneself. One could say the same about intentionally getting hit so one can stand on otherwise instant kill spikes. Perhaps at some point the designers intended for this to be an acceptable part of play, but even then it's clearly a cheaper act to ever intentionally get hit. So, every time one plays a game without trying one's best (ie, to accept that one can survive taking many hits so may choose to never exert more effort to learn the game than the amount needed to survive), they could be said to be cheating themself. And maybe that's true as well.

But it's also true that one plays a game for enjoyment and playing at one's best isn't always enjoyable; I certainly enjoy one-hit-kill games, but I don't play them all the time and for games that offer the mode I wish to play that in addition to the multi-hit-kill mode. So, given that the core issue is a matter of enjoyment, it'd seem clearer that for friends to "cheat" together would be acceptable but that cheating in the wild with people who don't know if one is "cheating" or not.

So, does that help explain why it's an unclear issue and it's not simply a matter of being an oxymoron?

Re:Makes sense (1)

10101001 10101001 (732688) | more than 2 years ago | (#38485832)

Sorry, I should have proofread that.

'... it'd seem clearer that for friends to "cheat" together would be acceptable but that cheating in the wild with people who don't know if one is "cheating" or not [is not].'

Re:Makes sense (3, Insightful)

Goat of Death (633284) | more than 2 years ago | (#38486316)

And I'm pleased to see that someone managed to start justifying cheating within a handful of posts. When I read online gaming forums discussing cheating, it generally takes not more than six comments to find someone justifying cheating....

Context is important. I never cheat in online multiplayer and find it pathetic the people who do. To me playing multiplayer online is about challenging myself and my abilities, especially fps. Cheating degrades the experience for others and that's weak.

However, for single player campaigns like rpgs I don't see the problem with modding the game however I want. I'm generally not playing to challenge myself, I'm playing to enjoy the game and the story. I liked Icewind Dale but found it too difficult. So I modded my characters up and found it more enjoyable. Dragon Age, I didn't like the tactic slot limits, especially for mages, so I modded the game. It's single player so what's the harm if I want to enjoy the game how I want to enjoy it?

Starcraft ][ they apparently banned people for cheating in the single player campaign. I find that deplorable. What right of it is Blizzards to deny people access to all of Starcraft ][ because someone doesn't play single player the way Blizzard wants. I won't be buying future Blizzard games because of this.

On the other hand I probably won't buy further Battlefield games because of how little EA/Dice is doing about cheating in BF3 which is currently pretty rampant there.

Multiplayer, ban away, ban and burn them across all multiplayer games if you can. However, single player, that's completely nonsensical, because you are affecting no on else and only modifying your own enjoyment of the game.

Re:Makes sense (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38487008)

Why is it "acceptable" then?

Generally, when someone speaks of the "acceptable" forms of cheating, they mean "the forms of cheating I use"....

And I'm pleased to see that someone managed to start justifying cheating within a handful of posts. When I read online gaming forums discussing cheating, it generally takes not more than six comments to find someone justifying cheating....

I find life to be difficult. Each time I try to write code, I find my initial attempt less than elegant. Every line of prose I write needs editing. My conversation shows all my faults. I have to practice with great attention to try to enhance every decent feature I have. I like myself best when I am honest. Therefore, I try to practice honesty whenever I have a chance, and I try to avoid dishonesty. I find that practice makes for ease: just as typing makes the use of a keyboard easier, honesty in one area makes it easier to be honest in others. It seems credible to me that people who practice dishonesty in one area will be attracted to others who are similarly casual with the truth, and will be increasingly corrupt.

Re:Makes sense (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38487152)

It is acceptable if you coded it yourself. Let's face it: Most of those other players don't care as much or have the understanding you do. If they don't care to use the options given to them to make a brainless game like wow more bearable they're just suckers. In fact I believe anybody who plays a game remotely similar to wow is a sucker. Unless they let their Computer play it for them, because that is what Computers are meant to do: repeat simple tasks.

(actually my computer made a loud sound when I was feeling particularly emotional about what I wrote. It sounded like the sound of a dvd tray opening, but suddenly closing. eery. to me as a paranoid schizophrenic this is quite important, to you it might just be conincidence. In any case, wow sucks.)

Re:Makes sense (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38485638)

Using a decent keyboard and mouse gives you an advantage over someone who's using a laptop. Where's the line between an acceptable and an unacceptable advantage?

Re:Makes sense (1)

lightknight (213164) | more than 2 years ago | (#38486826)

Acceptable advantages -> anything hardware, including pasting a cutout of an iron sight on your monitor.

Unacceptable advantages -> giving yourself auto-aim + shoot through walls + all upgrades + reveal map, in a multiplayer game, while your fellow gamers assume you're running the standard vanilla version of the game.

Re:Makes sense (2, Interesting)

bky1701 (979071) | more than 2 years ago | (#38486246)

I buy very good mouses. My latest one is very vast, and has a polynomial speed curve, so I can aim quickly and accurately. This gives me an edge over others - but is it dishonest? I do not even buy good mouses for that purpose, I do for graphical design; should I have to downgrade to the level of others?

Situations aren't as black and white as people want to make them. MMOs are designed to suck up time, either to cost the players more money directly (subscription games) or encourage them to spend more ("hey, look at my hat, it only cost 20$!" while grinding). I don't play these games because of that, but if I did, I certainly wouldn't feel it in any way wrong to use a bot.

Cheating on fluff classes I am inclined to not care about, either. The education system is screwed up and needs fixed badly enough that people stuck in it now should be using whatever means they can to get through and get the piece of paper entitling them to be some kind of magically upstanding citizens (regardless of actual skill or knowledge). Again, I never cheated on tests, but I wouldn't necessarily vilify those who do. If cheating on a meaningless test makes the difference for someone between flipping burgers and having a fairly good job, I can't possibly fault them for it, and I think you'd be hard pressed to do so, even. Maybe if the system weren't broken it would be different, but I just see bigger ethical and moral issues in the world than that.

You basically have to draw the line somewhere, and a lot of people, you seemingly included, take whatever some authority figure has defined it as for you as gospel. That's bad; bad for you, and bad for society, because it leads to a false sense of ethics and ultimately double standards. Somewhere between buying a better computer mouse and using steroids in the Olympics you need to define a line, a line which probably isn't where the group mentality placed it for you.

Re:Makes sense (1)

antdude (79039) | more than 2 years ago | (#38487058)

Mouses? :P

Re:Makes sense (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38487124)

I prefer it. Mice is the plural of the animal. It sounds wrong.

Re:Makes sense (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38487138)

I know, right? As he said, "The education system is screwed up", making us think we know it's "mice". Phuh.

1 blue, 2 blues
1 cop, 2 copper
1 goose, 2 gooses
1 jedi, 2 jedies
1 man, 2 mans
1 moose, 2 meese
1 penis, 2 penii
1 spouse, 2 spice
1 stimuli, 2 stimulies
1 swiss, 2 swoos
1 tooth, 2 toothies
1 vag, 2 vagoos
1 woman, 2 wimmins

Re:Makes sense (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38487376)

...or it could be an intentional change, you know. Not all failure to conform to something is a mistake.

Re:Makes sense (2)

Rinnon (1474161) | more than 2 years ago | (#38487620)

Cheating on fluff classes I am inclined to not care about, either. The education system is screwed up and needs fixed badly enough that people stuck in it now should be using whatever means they can to get through and get the piece of paper entitling them to be some kind of magically upstanding citizens (regardless of actual skill or knowledge). Again, I never cheated on tests, but I wouldn't necessarily vilify those who do. If cheating on a meaningless test makes the difference for someone between flipping burgers and having a fairly good job, I can't possibly fault them for it, and I think you'd be hard pressed to do so, even. Maybe if the system weren't broken it would be different, but I just see bigger ethical and moral issues in the world than that.

Hard pressed? Surely you jest. Do you know what cheating is a substitute for? Hard work. There is no "fluff" class it's not possible to get through with decent grades through hard work. Cheating, is dishonest. There can be no question about that. And it's not dishonest for the sake of some greater good either, don't act like this is some righteous resistance against an oppressive educational system. It doesn't matter if the educational system is screwed up or not. Cheating is just being dishonest so one can be lazy. I have no sympathy for someone who would rather lie, than work hard to pass a test. They want to have that piece of paper so they don't have to end up flipping burgers? Good for them. How about doing it through hard work, rather than deceit? Not willing to put in the hard work, why do you think they deserve the better jobs then? I would, with 100% certainty, hire a dropout before I would hire a graduate whom I knew had cheated.

Re:Makes sense (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38487852)

So, you confirm that education system is about showing how much had you can withstand before you break, not about gaining knowledge or skills?

Some people want to save some effort to get something useful out of it.

Re:Makes sense (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38488998)

I'd like to know why you start from the assumption that people cheat in order to be lazy. Just because the administration which determines class schedules fails at optimization doesn't mean everyone should.

bwahaha lmaof lololololol bwwahahhahaaaa (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38489918)

As a software development and electronics engineer what you have just stated about mice is utterly ridiculous and moronic.
Get a life dweeb. The only mouse that matters is the one that the marketing department of these mice companies use to extract brain cells from your head and keep you from thinking. That way they can keep the free flow of money coming from your pocket. I could PWN you with a 1995 ball mouse connected to a RS232 serial port! Sucker.

Agree, and disagree (1)

DeadCatX2 (950953) | more than 2 years ago | (#38486528)

I agree that there are two types of cheating, and I also agree with the broad outlines that you've drawn. However, I see things a bit differently, as I'm one of the people who actively creates hacks for the games I play. Here are the two types of cheaters that I see.

1) The "white hat" cheater. This is the gamer who would usually cheat at single player or LAN games. This gamer wants to have fun, and cheats enable gamers to calibrate the difficulty of their games to their own taste, "tuning the engine" for maximum efficiency of fun.

2) The "black hat" cheater. This is the gamer who derives pleasure from ruining the experience of other people. They are griefers and their idea of "fun" is pissing people off.

I'm in the first category. I play a LOT of L4D2 (500-ish hours in about 15 months). I don't think I could have played this game for so long if I had to deal with the bugs and the glitches and the design decisions that I don't agree with (the "itches"). Pretty much every game has itches, but what makes L4D2 unique for me is the ability to download a server for free, and the capability to modify the game engine with plugins so that I can scratch those itches.

So I run my own private server, and I can play with friends and they know that my server has been extremely modded. And from some perspective, what I am doing is tantamount to cheating (some of the commands, in fact, begin with "sm_cheat"). But I don't care, because I'm still having fun playing this game after hundreds of hours (total cost so far: 1 cent per hour). And if people join my server and have a problem with it they are free to leave. But for the friends who play on my server with me, are they cheaters?

Re:Makes sense (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38486650)

both kinds equally unacceptable. if you cheat, make it count. profit from it.

because you lack the stamina, willpower and talent to become greater through
practice.

I don't expect any man to starve.

Its a lot safer and easier in the long run, to earn a house a cottage and a big fat
hummer by just mastering a trade or engaging in consistent profitable behaviour.
business or some other progressive job.

Imagine the danger of earning these things through theft, fraud and murder?

a man must be fed, and he must be free.

humility and hard work is the safest, easiest bet.

and yea the cheaters win, until they lose.

Re:Makes sense (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38485022)

Add to this the fact that online interactions do not carry the normal risk of disapproving looks, shame attacks, and damaging the reputation of one's name.

Wow, yeah. Because paying attention to someone's reputation rather than the arguments they're making is so intelligent. And going along with what everyone else approves of always works out. People shouldn't do things that make other people give them disapproving looks!

I think being anonymous is important. It allows people to reveal truths or feelings which might otherwise never be revealed (because of herd mentality). It's also a great thing if you like privacy.

Re:Makes sense (2)

inviolet (797804) | more than 2 years ago | (#38485254)

Wow, yeah. Because paying attention to someone's reputation rather than the arguments they're making is so intelligent. And going along with what everyone else approves of always works out. People shouldn't do things that make other people give them disapproving looks!

In fact it usually does. I'm a subversive libertarian, but I readily admit that most behaviors that garner disapproval -- shoplifting, profanity, physical intimidation, dangerous driving, theft, vandalism, cheating, tresspassing -- do in fact deserve it, in the sense that our society is more efficient at producing safety, comfort, and pleasure without such behaviors occurring.

I think being anonymous is important. It allows people to reveal truths or feelings which might otherwise never be revealed (because of herd mentality). It's also a great thing if you like privacy.

Absolutely. Me too. My .sig used to say something like "Privacy allows you to behave morally, when those around you would judge you by an irrational moral code." But it is nevertheless the case that MOST gauche behaviors really are destructive to all concerned.

Re:Makes sense (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38485368)

That clarifies things.

But it is nevertheless the case that MOST gauche behaviors really are destructive to all concerned.

Typically online interactions don't have much of an effect on anything.

Re:Makes sense (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38485312)

I may sound prudish, but when I discover that someone is cheating I stop playing with them, but not before letting them know why. I'm often surprised by the rationalizations I receive for the cheating behavior.

Re:Makes sense (1)

lightknight (213164) | more than 2 years ago | (#38486836)

Agreed. When I find someone cheating, I usually nerf them.

Re:Makes sense (2)

gl4ss (559668) | more than 2 years ago | (#38485482)

well, online games cheating is a _game_ in itself. they're just playing a different game.

which is actually why online games should be designed differently from what they are designed now - in the sense that you would be free to do anything you want with the data you're sent and could send back any data you'd want(the server should only accept just movement controls usually from the players client - and the client should only be sent data the player should see). actually onlive is almost like that, you're only fed your screen and the client only feeds back the inputs - if you run image processing on that feed it should be fair game.

if you're "cheating" in online games it's more like playing the games as if the game was the matrix. that has the potential of being vastly more interesting than most online games in itself. in the long run with most games it would get really boring though.

besides, once you start optimizing your gaming.. it becomes a very fine line at which point you would be cheating and at which point you're just being creative. no crosshair displayed by game in certain situations? well just put a sticker on your screen! is that cheating? probably no. is a mouse that allows switching different speeds cheating? again, no. is having a friend work as a spotter while you play(by watching your screen) cheating? again, probably no. is changing gamma correction to appear "wrong" so you can see better in dark areas cheating? again no. but running a memory analyzer to pinpoint your enemies locations probably is. an aimbot working from gl-information or from memory read information is probably cheating, but is using a touchscreen and a friend as a gunner cheating - because from a gameplay recording it's pretty hard to tell the difference in some games?

I don't cheat in online games, in fact I don't play them very much nowadays at all. but I used to play subspace pretty seriously in retrospect, and we had custom skins, custom sound files etc to help us and it seemed pretty standard fare.

I used to play WoW too - and would have played longer if scripting my character had been allowed, it's quite a bummer if mods suspect you of being a cheat or a bot because you just do something creative accepted within the game rules to explore or to make some game gold. even then pretty much nobody played wow without any ui tweaks, map helpers and such.

Re:Makes sense (1)

bipbop (1144919) | more than 2 years ago | (#38485564)

I missed the mention of "Steam" and interpreted this as being about relationships. Whoops!

Re:Makes sense (1)

Runaway1956 (1322357) | more than 2 years ago | (#38488424)

It seems that EVERYONE whose wife is doing an 8 foot tall Norse viking makes your mistake . . . .

OK, not surprising. (1)

tm2b (42473) | more than 2 years ago | (#38484730)

Makes complete sense. I can easily see that if everyone you know is cheating, it would start to seem "fair.". Plus, the cheating itself starts to seem like a game in itself.

Griefing in MMOs seems like it would be the same sort of thing.

Re:OK, not surprising. (2)

rtb61 (674572) | more than 2 years ago | (#38485718)

Cheating ultimately destroys all games. Games are required to be played by rules otherwise there is not means by which to share the game with others in any meaningful way. Once you start cheating, there is no limit to the extent of cheating and thus no means of sharing context as cheating always shifts the rules upon every exchange.

Often cheaters cheat do so for no other reason than they are bored (likely psychopaths and narcissists even they computer game) and simply wish to spoil the game for every else, purposefully, they ego satisfaction (power and control) from destroying every else's pleasure.

Spoiled brats do much the same, children buying hacks wishing to demonstrate the false superiority of basically the 1%, we all know who they are by now.

Of course there is cheating for profit but that is a whole different issue and limited to games where you can profit in real terms.

Re:OK, not surprising. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38487976)

Makes complete sense. I can easily see that if everyone you know is cheating, it would start to seem "fair.". Plus, the cheating itself starts to seem like a game in itself.

In many cases, once a game has become utterly stale and exhausted, the cheating doesn't just seem like a game in of itself, it actually IS a game in of itself.

Some people cheat to get ahead. Some people cheat because they just don't care about the rules. Some do it to have fun, some to it to eliminate tedium, some do it just to be dicks.

There are in general, only two kinds of cheating: That which affects other people, and that which does not. The first kind is generally not cool, but the second kind hurts only your Pride. And people who like to wave their E-Penis in your face and brag about how awesome and cool and Legit they play, are usually really fucking annoying. They are also usually the only ones who are bothered by the first form, because it makes their E-Penis feel small.

Labels (4, Funny)

The Archon V2.0 (782634) | more than 2 years ago | (#38484758)

The likelihood of a fair player becoming labelled as a cheater in future is directly correlated with this person's number of friends who are cheaters.

Whereas the likelihood of a fair player being labelled as a noob, faggot, or the son of a whore is directly correlated to both their opponent's self-perceived skills and their opponent's lack of actual skills.

Re:Labels (0)

Samantha Wright (1324923) | more than 2 years ago | (#38484792)

Yes, but we've known forever that the desire to jerk off to one's own ego greatly exceeds any sense of honour or human decency that may exist in online gamers. It's sort of like anarcho-capitalism, except with rankings instead of coffers.

Re:Labels (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38485566)

Whereas the likelihood of a fair player being labelled as a noob, faggot, or the son of a whore

Yeah. We're discussing the VAC (Valve Anti-Cheating Software) here, VAC does not have "noob", "faggot" or "son of a whore" classifications; you're thinking of chat.

Before you say, "So what?" (1)

betterunixthanunix (980855) | more than 2 years ago | (#38484782)

There is a lot of money at stake in MMOs. If people cheat too often, the revenue stream will start drying up.

Now, if people were running their own servers, this would be less of a deal -- servers that had strict no-cheating policies would attract serious players, and servers that allow cheating would attract cheaters (assuming that people even had an incentive to cheat).

Re:Before you say, "So what?" (4, Insightful)

Samantha Wright (1324923) | more than 2 years ago | (#38484954)

The incentive to cheat in moneyless games like Valve's FPSes is unfortunately quite simple and immune to your logic. It's a desire to torture and torment non-cheaters. Most people who are simply bad at the game don't download aimbots and wallhacks, because that would be admitting defeat. Putting up a "trolls OK here!" sign doesn't generally stop trolls from attempting to troll other communities.

Re:Before you say, "So what?" (1)

Ethanol-fueled (1125189) | more than 2 years ago | (#38485060)

Most people who are simply bad at the game don't download aimbots and wallhacks, because that would be admitting defeat.

Good point, but it becomes moot once you remove multiplayer games from the equation. In fact, emulator speed-runs often specifically include classes for cheated runs(even the particular cheats listed). When I came of age and had just discovered NESticle, I treated myself to using cheat codes to beat all those games I never beat when I owned my NES - the most notable being the original Mega man, which is to this day more difficult than any of its sequels.

Most old Nintendo games are awesome in our minds because of nostalgia, but actually playing them and having to start the whole game over and over again after dying at that one hard part gets really old. We're older and smarter now, and cheating enables us to play those old games as if we were reading a book.

Re:Before you say, "So what?" (1)

Samantha Wright (1324923) | more than 2 years ago | (#38485146)

Yes, I was going to go on to make the point that once you have everyone cheating, it's no longer a human-directed game—unlike the intricate art of the tool-assisted speed run, which is basically a mission to explore the best possible playtime assuming perfect luck and skill, or reliving an old classic (I'm a strong proponent of the five-second rewind in ZSNES myself), a multiplayer game boils down into a pure struggle of code-versus-code. Suddenly, the arms race evolves into a 3D version of Core Wars [corewars.org] played with other people's algorithms, a fabulously boring thing to watch if you don't intimately understand what the agents are doing and why.

Re:Before you say, "So what?" (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38485470)

No, it's not. It's people who want to win no matter what. Torture and torment of fair players is just a side-effect. Cheaters are usually people who often behave the same way in life, why pay for something when you can have it for free, why improve your skills when you can type some codes instead, and so on.

For the fair players, it's irritating to deal with cheaters, you know they cheat, no matter the game, playing a few hours will give you enough experience to spot them immediately. What happens next, good players with actual skill can keep playing and feel good because they're holding their own against cheaters, or simply stop bothering and move to another server or game.

I've played Counter-strike since it appeared, I was very very good at it, and i did feel good beating cheaters, with gaming skills alone, but after a time it gets tiring, and irritating, which is when I thank Sony for PS3. So yeah, screw you, hacking the PS3 is not something I approve.

Re:Before you say, "So what?" (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38488124)

There's nothing I like more than going to a server with a bunch of cheating snobs, spank and own them and then get hacked off their server.

Good times.

What about the wrongly accused? (3, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38484796)

What could be even more lame than cheating?

N00bs joining a game standing still and moving predictably running their mouths with endless accusations of auto-aim cheats as they are mercilessly sweet spotted and head shotted.

Friends of non n00bs are likely to not suck either and before you know it the whole team is "cheating".

Re:What about the wrongly accused? (3)

Kurrel (1213064) | more than 2 years ago | (#38484822)

Back in the Counter-strike heyday, my friend would commonly get banned from a server after a few rounds for cheating. All he had was surround-sound headphones and the fast-twitch accuracy of a Korean but I'd get banned by association. Being labelled a cheater doesn't prove guilt; why wouldn't they use VAC analysis rather than hearsay?

Re:What about the wrongly accused? (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38485006)

Back in the Counter-strike heyday, my friend would commonly get banned from a server after a few rounds for cheating. All he had was surround-sound headphones and the fast-twitch accuracy of a Korean but I'd get banned by association. Being labelled a cheater doesn't prove guilt; why wouldn't they use VAC analysis rather than hearsay?

Me and my pals would usually get kicked out for camping. Apparently it was unacceptable to play tactically, to cooperate and assign some team members to cover the team's back while the rest of it conducted their assault.

Re:What about the wrongly accused? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38487654)

In Counter-Strike, anything other than bunny hopping and wild shooting was unacceptable. Flash bangs and the auto shotty were always a blast in the tunnel in Dust though.

Re:What about the wrongly accused? (1)

Phrogman (80473) | more than 2 years ago | (#38484916)

There are lots of people for whom winning is much more important than playing fairly. When they lose, they assume others are cheating better than they are.

There is no sense of sportsmanship these days. None at all.

Re:What about the wrongly accused? (5, Insightful)

icebike (68054) | more than 2 years ago | (#38484992)

Actually this happens more than you might think. Anyone who spends a LOT of time on specific games
can achieve a skill level that looks like cheating to the newbie player.

The solution to that problem is easy. Go find a better group of opponents instead of beating up on newbies.

Really good players don't enjoy waxing a newbie 100 to 0 time after time. It takes a pretty juvenile mentality to do that,
and playing against the bots ends up being more fun. Many really good players will start offering
tips to newbies to help build their skills. It makes game play more fun for all.

Just asking, "wow cool, how do you do that move" on the chat will get you a lesson from an honest GOOD player
and a taunt or "just practice" from the cheater.

But all too often good players will spot actual cheating, and hacked clients which evade server detection, etc.
The better you are at any given game the more likely you will see things which you know to be impossible.
Recording movies of this (if you have the computer horsepower) will actually allow you to replay
something enough times to see rockets coming out of a guys ass and going thru walls etc.

And cheaters often come in pairs. Lurk long and quiet like you are away from the machine and you will
often catch them chatting about the cheat.

Re:What about the wrongly accused? (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38485080)

Most accusations are, I dare say it, false accusations. People hate losing, and are quick at running their mouths when they have their anonymity.

Re:What about the wrongly accused? (1)

datavirtue (1104259) | more than 2 years ago | (#38485364)

Playing World of Tanks, the accusation of cheating was thrown around constantly.

Re:What about the wrongly accused? (4, Insightful)

Scorch_Mechanic (1879132) | more than 2 years ago | (#38485306)

You're quite right, of course. Mod parent up and whatnot.

I played a lot of TF2 for a very long time, up until I was exiled from my favorite community for reasons that don't deserve airing. I even played some competitive, and I saw and learned things about classes, maps, and moves that would make the average "pub" player's hair stand on end. I knew soldiers who had perfected the art of the rocket, snipers who almost never missed, scouts who executed heavy classes and were impossible to hit, and spies who are so sneaky they could literally hide in plain sight. Playing with and against these people honed my skills so much that I can tell the difference between skill and cheating with ease. It's all about the attitude. Despite the public perception, few if any competitive players are assholes. Being part of a "comp" team necessitates a good attitude and an instinct for rapport that belies the usual arrogance and casual asshattery of a cheater. As you said, an honest to goodness GOOD player will give tips and be courteous. A cheater will respond with insults.

In all my literal thousands of hours of TF2, I only saw a handful of cheaters. I could count the number on two hands. You know why? It's the community. If you don't want to deal with cheaters, find a server that has a boisterous community and a conclave of attentive admins. Good players will gravitate towards servers with other good players, and as long as there's enough friendly admins around to keep a lid on the jerks the server will remain pure and enjoyable.

Re:What about the wrongly accused? (1)

Cruciform (42896) | more than 2 years ago | (#38487354)

The only reasons I've left a TF2 server is bigots and guys who don't want to play but just want to take up slots, stand in one place, and karaoke rap through their mics.

It's a pretty nice community all-in-all :)

Re:What about the wrongly accused? (1)

Cruciform (42896) | more than 2 years ago | (#38487352)

A few of us used to stay after work and play up to 8 hours of Quake 3 Rocket Arena almost every day, seven days a week. I was okay, but two of my co-workers were monsters - just amazing to watch. And watch you could, via spectator mode. And it was pretty obvious though the movement and traversal of the maps that it was skill, not cheating.

The thing that sucks about a nice spectator mode like that is when you have a squad based game and someone who was killed is yelling to their surviving teammate "He's on the other side of the door!" We used to get that in the 'artist vs. coder' matches of that counterstrike-alike mod for Unreal Tournament. Dirty cheatin' coders.

Re:Waxing a newbie? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38489922)

waxing? like at a beauty salon? put wax on legs, bikini line, upper lips? what kind of games are you playing?

Ban everyone (1)

cheekyjohnson (1873388) | more than 2 years ago | (#38484824)

Quickly! Ban the friends of every cheater! They might also be cheaters. Such a thing would bring about the apocalypse.

cheating is a bit more complex (3, Interesting)

Trepidity (597) | more than 2 years ago | (#38484834)

There are some black-and-white cases of what constitutes "cheating" in online games, but a lot of gray-area ones as well, especially when it comes to when players will accuse other players of cheating (this book [amazon.com] is an interesting study). Sometimes it's violating technical mechanisms, like installing a modified video driver or aimbot, but there are a lot of social rules of what constitutes cheating as well, and some mixed cases like using technical features in the "wrong" way. Some tournaments even have to very precisely specify what constitutes "cheating" with legalistic rules, like some of the Starcraft 1 tournaments' rules about which edge cases of unit behavior (mutalisk stacking, etc.) were cheating (banned) versus just edge-case behavior (ok to use).

Re:cheating is a bit more complex (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38485054)

The last online cheater I saw, well, he was clearly cheating with how he moved and attacked.

But I have seen an addon user described as a cheater when the API was not even being slightly pushed.

No surprise (1)

Readycharged (2023636) | more than 2 years ago | (#38484944)

It simply follows the old adage: 'bad company corrupts good morals'.

offline also (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38484980)

When i was a kid, a made a friend who was stealing bikes - i join him ... and i lost many other friends !

school (4, Insightful)

bcrowell (177657) | more than 2 years ago | (#38485046)

There are obvious analogies to be made with cheating in school, doping in sports, government bureaucracies where bribery is universal, ... and obvious caveats about whether those analogies are really valid (online games aren't real, so cheating doesn't hurt people in the tangible way that a bribe-taking Russian cop does).

I teach physics at a community college. It certainly makes sense that students are more likely to cheat if they see their friends getting away with it, or if they see that cheating is so rampant that they start to believe that they have to cheat or else they'll be at an unfair disadvantage. The obvious fix for that would be to take it very seriously if students cheat. Suspend them, expel them, give them an F in the course with a note on their transcript saying why. But it seems to be a nearly universal thing at schools in the US these days that none of that happens. My school's lawyers have advised the administration that they can't allow faculty to give anything beyond an F on the assignment -- which is typically not a penalty at all, since usually the reason students cheat is that they're already failing, so they have nothing to lose.

Re:school (1)

Shadow of Eternity (795165) | more than 2 years ago | (#38485130)

I call bullshit, I attend one of (if it isnt outright by now) the largest universities on the east coast and our academic integrity policy is essentially one step shy of physically branding a giant C on the student's face. The first time someone is caught cheating the professor gets to do whatever they want with the now defunct letter grade, they get a "Z" in the course, if they try to drop the course they're re-added so they can't avoid the grade hit, and they can't retake the course or get the Z removed until they complete a mandatory ethics course and redo the original class. The second time they're just plain fucked.

And all of this is outside of the academic penalties they can get ranging from multi-term suspensions to flat out telling them to get the fuck out and never come back. Getting a "Z" outside of borderline cases is essentially a one way ticket to starting your degree again at another university. IF they take you.

Re:school (1)

datavirtue (1104259) | more than 2 years ago | (#38485390)

You are comparing a community college to a university. They are VERY different animals.

Re:school (1)

bcrowell (177657) | more than 2 years ago | (#38486074)

You are comparing a community college to a university. They are VERY different animals.

Or the legal situation may differ from state to state. I'm in California.

Re:school (1)

Shadow of Eternity (795165) | more than 2 years ago | (#38486314)

I'm in Florida. Don't let the tourists fool you, we're still the deep south.

Re:school (1)

antifoidulus (807088) | more than 2 years ago | (#38486816)

Policy and implementation are very different animals. The GPs policy on cheating may say something similar, but that doesn't mean that the school is willing to implement it out of fear of a lawsuit. Have you actually seen anyone actually get punished in accordance with the policy?

I also attended one of the biggest schools on the eastern seaboard who had a very similar policy, but guess what, what the GP says is absolutely true. Cheating was so rampant, esp. on homework(which is why homework shouldn't be graded, but thats another discussion entirely), that you were putting yourself at a huge competitive disadvantage if you didn't cheat. Hell my friend as part of his PhD student duties was proctoring an ethics exam for first year grad students and he caught a girl cheating(I'll repeat that, she was cheating on her ethics exam), and the school basically said, "drop it". The fear of getting sued is just too great for schools to enforce their cheating policy in any meaningful fashion.

Re:school (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38485138)

My high school counselor told me "You have to lie, cheat, and steal to get ahead in this world". I think she was right.
But I still don't do those things. I also don't have friends who do those things. Not that I would cheat if my friend did - he just wouldn't be my friend anymore.
I think it's more of a character quality than a social/friend issue.

Re:school (1)

datavirtue (1104259) | more than 2 years ago | (#38485436)

Unfortunately it is true that a lot of people CAN and do lie, cheat, and steal to get ahead. The workplace is very competitive, and when someone less capable comes up against someone who doesn't have to cheat the temptation is great. They face a choice of success or failure and the only thing to make it a debate is their sense of honor. Honor has to be taught, and I find it is undervalued or absent from the conscious thought of many. Although, it is possible to over-value your honor as well.

Re:school (1)

Ethanol-fueled (1125189) | more than 2 years ago | (#38485280)

since usually the reason students cheat is that they're already failing, so they have nothing to lose.

Most students pursuing a bachelor's in Biology have to take basic mechanics("101") and basic EM/optics("102") physics classes. There is not a damn thing in those classes that a B.S. bio grad would use that is not already overlap from the chem classes they are taking. The official line for justifying forcing so many extraneous classes on students is "producing well-rounded grads," but extraneous classes are irrelevant in this day and age, especially as tuitions skyrocket and information becomes more accessible online.

Then consider that many students, especially at the community college level, already have jobs and/or families. Somebody after a B.S. in biology sure as hell ain't gonna be calculating impulses and force vectors and E/B fields in their careers operating PCR machines or collecting samples in lakes and rivers. If they had to, though they could learn enough to be useful in a trivial amount of time, on their own terms.

Re:school (2)

datavirtue (1104259) | more than 2 years ago | (#38485486)

Having lived and learned my measly thirty years on this planet without a college education, It is my opinion that despite the well known problems with modern education, the requirement and justification of well-roundedness is a very good thing. I started college for the first time at 32 and I can see how valuable it is to take classes outside your field to round out your ability to think and consider new approaches. If there is any reason for college, the most glaring one is the way they force you outside your comfort zone whether you like or not. I have learned to stop dreading and avoiding classes I don't think apply to my interests or field because, almost every time I have taken them, I have been able to synthesize additional wisdom that applies to my interests. Making people take math and physics is a good thing. The only reason people do not perform well in math classes is because they do not study properly. I'm no math genius, but I get A's because I recognize when my study habits are not working and I scramble to adapt them or I simply practice more. The head math professor at my college was not good at math when he was young.

Re:school (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38487384)

Then there's something wrong with your teaching methodology if students are resorting to cheating. Why not limit the options to be able to cheat, make your course more interesting and more of a fun challenge for them rather than being able to find a way to trick you on exams? Ridiculing them or punishing them doesn't work in gaming nor does it work in real life. A lot of the cheaters aren't stupid and a lot of them see all the anti-cheating stuff as a challenge for them to overcome, if they don't get caught, they win, it's like a poker game for them. If they get caught, they'll figure out a way back in without you even realizing, and you'd be surprised how much that happens. Social engineering at its best. Perhaps you may have something to learn from them.

This just in, Friends share activities, News @ 11 (1, Insightful)

AlienIntelligence (1184493) | more than 2 years ago | (#38485230)

It has been mentioned in other comments and I did RTFA
but how is this news?

I'm sorta on the fence about studies that prove a known.

I can't imagine that this would be much different than any
other members of a group taking on malevolent activities
to create a dichotomy of the group of those that accept,
tolerate and abhor the activities. IRL, Drugs, crime, sex,
etc. Nothing new there. [That's what I mean, with proving
a 'known'. Yes, more data points but still.]

Furthermore I'm certain this will follow patterns regarding
how people treat/consider their online personas. Allowing
for more flamboyant and extroverted activities to arise and
thus once again polarizing them from others online. That
would be cheating, hacking, griefing, etc.

Add to that, when someone begins to either a) assume
a persona that may provide a thrill/excitement that they
don't get IRL or b) befriends those that do, the social
aspect can actually be HIGHER, as they have suddenly
become a denizen of a guild and have achieved 'geek
power'. So, contrary to the 'assumptions' of this study
there can actually be a higher kinship, (re: gangs IRL)
with brethren that share a cause.

So... another possible title.
"People that share questionable proclivities risk ostracization"
Or,
"Introverts discover world of peers, open up and become social"
but that title is probably too happy sounding for 'news' nowadays.

-AI

Only losers worry about cheaters... (-1, Redundant)

rocket rancher (447670) | more than 2 years ago | (#38485264)

...and who the fuck cares what losers think?

Cheating spreads like flu must be why so meny asia (-1, Flamebait)

Joe_Dragon (2206452) | more than 2 years ago | (#38485292)

Asian's cheat on school test / do work as a group that is solo work.

Cheating is bad... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38485346)

and I help teach that on people running local host games on left 4 dead with sv_cheats enabled. I hope they like med-kits. 1,000+ or so should be enough, right?

In other news... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38485520)

Players that join MODDED servers frequently cry "HACKER!" or "CHEATER!"

Birds of a feather... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38485534)

Submission: Study finds online copyright violations [are] contagious

Cheating is fun.. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38485538)

Cheating can add a new dimension to a game, that's always been the case with cheats of the past, and it's still true of cheats today.

As long as everybody else is cheating too, it can make for crazy variations on the usual gameplay, which add to the amount of time a game gets played without getting stale. The playing field balances itself out.

Of course, cheats vs. non-cheats can be irritating, cheats in off-line games are ALWAYS fun tho, although everybody seems to be valuing (worthless) achievements more, and nerfing cheat modes or considering them all bugs rather than fun cheats instead these days. That makes games LESS FUN.

Incomprehensible to me (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38485698)

You get no rewards besides getting bored of a game faster than everyone else. I just bought bf3 and it's already hacked. You've got to have the selfesteem of a gnat to need to cheat a video game to feel good about yourselves. Now people who actually pay for hacks are on a whole other level.

Keep in mind that a game hacker is probably cut from the same cloth as guys dropping worms all over the internet

The real problem lies with the developers... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38485746)

The real disgusting thing is that a lot of the cheats should never have existed in the first place. May this serve as a lesson to game developers.

I can give one example : how comes lamers could do things like jumping to 20 meters high in one jump or run at 50 mph in Counter-Strike while nobody has ever seen a single unit do the same on Battle.net in, say, Warcraft III?

The reason is that most game engine are programmed by clueless noobs who do not realize the following very simple rule :

"never trust the client"

So to all the game-designers wannabees out there dreaming to make one hit on the Apple appstore, remember this: do NOT F*CKING TRUST THE CLIENT.

Do you understand why? Do you realize that no matter what if your game as any success there shall be no life out there trying to ruin your game?

Yet if more game programmers simply transmitted user inputs to the server (instead of game state) and made sure that these inputs where valid, there would be wwaayy less cheats.

Sure, there could still be other cheats: "see through" walls, auto-aim, etc.

But at least you can make it *much* harder for people to ruin your game.

Don't want to make headshot-bots that deadly and imba? Make f*cking no headshots! A few nolifes main complain but your game won't be any less fun. Don't want to make generic auto-aim bots that imba? Add the f*cking randomness to the bullets you fire on the f*cking server, not on the f*cking client!

How hard is it to understand?

Regarding the "fog of war for you but not fog of war for me because I cheat" issue, do you *really* think you need to transmit the f*cking entire game state all the time? What about only transmitting the f*cking coordinates of ennemy units that are *close* to the hero?

The good thing is that several big games now do start with security in mind. They understood they should never trust a client and they should never give too many infos to a client.

The bad thing is that some people here will disagree with what I wrote above because they're clueless and part of the problem...

Seems reasonable (1)

Holammer (1217422) | more than 2 years ago | (#38485794)

If any of my friends cheated in BF or COD, well... Lets just say that I know where they live.

Put the fear of death in them (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38485972)

We should implement capital punishment on cheaters. Just kill anyone found to be cheating. And don't go on about right to live and all that. There are enough people living on earth already. Any excuse to kill people is good.

In the old days... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38486118)

Back in days when Quake 2 was the online game to play I employed a couple of
cheats, the wall hack comes to mind it allowed you to see through walls,
just to see what they where about. To me it actually reduced my enjoyment
of the game and I uninstalled them. Since then I have been a straight up player.
Although I will admit that I have not played much online for the last 3 or 4 years.

Cheating? (1)

Lando (9348) | more than 2 years ago | (#38487946)

Well of course cheaters generally have cheating friends, I mean as a cheater, you aren't interested in putting in the work to become good, so why invest the time to find and or make cheats, someone else does that. So how to cheats get distributed? Well because people you know have them and they share them.

I guess I should RTFA at some point, but it would seem to make sense. So what's the issue here?

Duh! (1)

DaveV1.0 (203135) | more than 2 years ago | (#38488344)

Cheaters are generally dishonorable, shitbag assholes and dishonorable, shitbag assholes are generally friends with other dishonorable, shitbag assholes. This is not rocket science, folks. People are generally friends with people who share the same behaviors and values as themselves. "Birds of a feather" and all that.

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