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Russia, Europe Seek Divorce From U.S. Tech Vendors

Soulskill posted more than 2 years ago | from the keep-the-kids dept.

Supercomputing 201

dcblogs writes "The Russians are building a 10-petaflop supercomputer as part of a goal to build an exascale system by 2018-20, in the same timeframe as the US. The Russians, as well as Europe and China, want to reduce reliance on U.S. tech vendors and believe that exascale system development will lead to breakthroughs that could seed new tech industries. 'Exascale computing is a challenge, and indeed an opportunity for Europe to become a global HPC leader,' said Leonardo Flores Anover, who is the European Commission's project officer for the European Exascale Software Initiative. 'The goal is to foster the development of a European industrial capability,' he said. Think what Europe accomplished with Airbus. For Russia: 'You can expect to see Russia holding its own in the exascale race with little or no dependence on foreign manufacturers,' said Mike Bernhardt, who writes The Exascale Report. For now, Russia is relying on Intel and Nvidia."

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Industrial Espionage. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38485986)

For Russia: 'You can expect to see Russia holding its own in the exascale race with little or no dependence on foreign manufacturers,' said Mike Bernhardt, who writes The Exascale Report. For now, Russia is relying on Intel and Nvidia.

Do what the Chinese do and copy the hell out of Nvidia and Intel.

Re:Industrial Espionage. (1, Troll)

Frosty Piss (770223) | more than 2 years ago | (#38486020)

Do what the Chinese do and copy the hell out of Nvidia and Intel.

China has a tremendous skill-set that while works very well for reverse engineering and building things, does not work so well where free-thinking innovation are needed to make advances. The Russians have these abilities, and will be able to develop their own ideas where the Chinese can only copy.

An Russian developed and built all-purpose computing chip on the consumer market could be quite the interesting thing... But the Chinese will always be copying Intel and nVidia (and soon some Russian company).

Re:Industrial Espionage. (5, Informative)

Anonymous Cowar (1608865) | more than 2 years ago | (#38486054)

When the russians copied our b-29 superfortress to make the Tu-4 [wikipedia.org] , they made perfect copy. However, they also gained enough understanding that they based a whole line of aircraft on the tu-4.

Re:Industrial Espionage. (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38486174)

Yes but the Russians are a bunch of fucking nigger-lovers. That is why communism failed. Niggers. Forget all your economic theories and political science. No, none of that will be necessary. The niggers did it just as they destroy every civilization. Sure, a few are good and worthy of being called darkies, blacks, etc. But most of them are parasitic niggers. Welfare money goes in and crime comes out.

Niggers.

Re:Industrial Espionage. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38486402)

http://ow.ly/89KR0

Re:Industrial Espionage. (1)

Wyatt Earp (1029) | more than 2 years ago | (#38486276)

But the Tu-4 weighed more than the B-29, they couldn't build the tires and had to buy them on the US Military Surplus market post-war.

Re:Industrial Espionage. (2)

dadioflex (854298) | more than 2 years ago | (#38487270)

But the Tu-4 weighed more than the B-29, they couldn't build the tires and had to buy them on the US Military Surplus market post-war.

Due to limitations on resources rather than limitations on engineering expertise.

Re:Industrial Espionage. (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38486332)

"Our"?

Unless you own Boeing stock, the correct word is "their".

Re:Industrial Espionage. (1, Funny)

Solandri (704621) | more than 2 years ago | (#38487132)

The Soviet Union used the metric system, thus 1/16 inch (1.6 mm) thick sheet aluminum and proper rivet lengths were unavailable. The corresponding metric-gauge metal was thicker; as a result, the Tu-4 weighed about 3,100 lb (1,400 kg) more than the B-29, with a corresponding decrease in range and payload.

Well how about that. A reason to continue using Imperial units.

Re:Industrial Espionage. (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38487236)

Not this shit again. The whole world is laughing at your ridiculous arbitrary system of measurement. Christ what a hunk of shit.

Re:Industrial Espionage. (2, Insightful)

Runaway1956 (1322357) | more than 2 years ago | (#38487314)

Fuck the world. The more we do to please the world, the further behind we fall. I don't care that a quart of milk causes your granny to have apoplexy when she tries to convert it. Just fuck the world. We don't WANT to be like you - half the world is beating a path to our front door (back door in the case of Mexicans) because they want to be like us!

Besides which, your metrics are no less arbitrary than the length of a king's foot, or the first joint of his thumb, or any other damned unit we use.

Re:Industrial Espionage. (4, Funny)

Freultwah (739055) | more than 2 years ago | (#38487392)

Wow. No more cappuccino for you, man.

Re:Industrial Espionage. (3, Funny)

Runaway1956 (1322357) | more than 2 years ago | (#38487442)

No cappuccino, thank you. I take my caffeine American style, drip brewed with Folger's coffee. And, since the subject is units of measurement, why does Mr. Coffee think that a cup is only six ounces? WTF? I brew twelve cups of java, drink 4 (12 oz) cups, and the coffee is down to those nasty looking dregs. Seems to me that a 12 cup coffee pot should hold just about 96 ounces, which should mean that I get 6 of my (12 oz) cups of coffee, before there are nasty solids visible in the bottom.

It's probably a freaking FRENCH conspiracy!

Let us not forget that "stealing" went both ways. (5, Interesting)

melted (227442) | more than 2 years ago | (#38487238)

For instance, F-35 JSF started its life as a carbon copy of Yak-141, blueprints for which Locheed Martin blatantly stole from Russians by first forming and then dissolving a "partnership" with the Yakovlev bureau all in the span of about a year. Don't believe me? Check out the videos below:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=23ohOKthO18 [youtube.com] - Yak 141, circa 1987
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ki86x1WKPmE [youtube.com] - F-35, 2011

See other videos of Yak-141, and see it from the rear in particular. F-35 is a blatant copy, just with today's electronics and stealth.

Re:Industrial Espionage. (5, Funny)

Nutria (679911) | more than 2 years ago | (#38486068)

The Russians have these abilities, and will be able to develop their own ideas where the Chinese can only copy.

Like they "innovated" during the Communist Era?

VAX: When you care enough to steal [fsu.edu] the very best.

Re:Industrial Espionage. (1)

IceNinjaNine (2026774) | more than 2 years ago | (#38486124)

VAX: When you care enough to steal [fsu.edu] the very best.

Thank you for that. I was just getting ready to post that but you beat me to it. Slow trigger finger tonight. ;)

Re:Industrial Espionage. (4, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38486214)

What did they copy to make the first space satellite? First man in space? Hmmmm...

Re:Industrial Espionage. (5, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38486282)

They used their captured German rocket engineers to develop their rocketry. That said, the US had their own German rocket engineers too, most notably Wernher von Braun, who led its rocket development up to the Saturn V.

Re:Industrial Espionage. (4, Informative)

dbIII (701233) | more than 2 years ago | (#38487052)

Actually they had them train Russians by getting them to work on a dummy project with Russian assistants. Once the assistants had learnt all they could they were shifted onto the real work, and once enough assistants had been trained the German engineers vanished. That gave the Russian engineers a large enough skilled workforce.
It's amusing that your attempt to disparage the USSR and patrioticly beat your breast is a lot more complimentary than the very scary reality.

Re:Industrial Espionage. (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38487658)

>the German engineers vanished.

Nope, almost all of them returned to Germany in the early 50s, just a few stayed in USSR, presumably by choice.

Re:Industrial Espionage. (0)

emilper (826945) | more than 2 years ago | (#38487404)

kind of not ... USSR had better rockets than the Germans even before the war; the V1-V2 were so bad you needed a city the size of London as a target to be able to hit anything; the famous "German rocketry" contributed more to the defeat of Germany than France, simply by taking resources that could have gone into submarines ... US and USSR had better designed and better used rocketry (think of bazookas and katiushas, which could not hit a city 300 miles away, but did not try to do that since it was pretty much useless), while the Germans kept pumping money into somebody's pet projects that were more of a burden than a help ... as if they fought the war to feed the companies that produced weaponry instead of fighting it to win. Most of the weapon systems they deployed in the second half of the war were technically impressive but fucking useless in the field, since, for example in the case of the heavy tanks, you also had to get the tank where it mattered, and if you could not get it there because the axles broke you had a very expensive piece of garbage, and the soviets could simply go around them instead of going head to head with the barely mobile monster of a tank.

I am tired of the "von xxx" myths ... the Germans, even the exiles before the war, including Einstein, were not allowed anywhere near any significant development program until very late. The V1-V2 rockets don't look anything like the Mercury rockets, except the general stick-with-wings-at-one-end form.

Re:Industrial Espionage. (2)

demachina (71715) | more than 2 years ago | (#38486284)

Nazi Germany's V-2, so did the U.S.

Re:Industrial Espionage. (0)

colinrichardday (768814) | more than 2 years ago | (#38486378)

And how many V-2s achieved orbit? How many ever carried a human? The Soviets may have had German scientists, but they had to do more than copy.

Re:Industrial Espionage. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38486396)

They couldn't copy, but then, when they had their captured Germans give them their decade of experience and force them to continue the work, then it's hardly a home-grown technology.

Re:Industrial Espionage. (1)

JBMcB (73720) | more than 2 years ago | (#38486578)

No, the German scientists did most of the heavy lifting. The Soviet rocket program was pretty much non-existent post WWII. The politicization of the science and engineering fields, as well as the Pogroms and purges that got rid of a lot of their leading scientists set them back decades.

Re:Industrial Espionage. (4, Informative)

Amouth (879122) | more than 2 years ago | (#38486688)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V-2 [wikipedia.org]

according to the first paragraph .. it was the "first known human artifact to enter outer space" (with a citation too).

also for fun..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fieseler_Fi_103R_(Reichenberg) [wikipedia.org]

So the V2's did make it to space - not a full orbit.. and there was a version of the V1 designed to carry a person.. had they not been in the middle of a world war - and given a few years.. yea i bet they would have had bot down just fine..

Re:Industrial Espionage. (1)

colinrichardday (768814) | more than 2 years ago | (#38486758)

I was aware of that. According to The Rocket and the Reich by Michael Neufeld, A V-2 reached an altitude of 176 km (109 mi) on a vertical launch. That's not going to give you much of an orbit.

Re:Industrial Espionage. (0)

Amouth (879122) | more than 2 years ago | (#38486876)

considering that 62 miles is considered sub orbital space flight
and 100 miles is considered LEO

and note that other than the moon missions - ALL human space flight has been in LEO or less..

i'd take that for 1944.. 109 miles achieved and a max of 128 miles (as max on vertical launch) that with a little more work (and again not a world war) they would have easily gotten there.

Re:Industrial Espionage. (1)

gatkinso (15975) | more than 2 years ago | (#38486336)

They copied the Germans (who based a large part of their program on the work of Robert Goddard).

Re:Industrial Espionage. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38486796)

My understanding is that most of the German innovation was based on Jules Verne.

Re:Industrial Espionage. (1)

Cyberax (705495) | more than 2 years ago | (#38486606)

The funny thing is, the USSR has not used any VAX designs.

Re:Industrial Espionage. (2)

Nutria (679911) | more than 2 years ago | (#38486702)

Because they weren't competent enough. The East Germans were, though.

Re:Industrial Espionage. (1)

superwiz (655733) | more than 2 years ago | (#38486892)

References to Communist Era (when talking about Russia) are as dated as references to pre-WWII tech. Soviet Union doesn't exist even as a memory anymore.

Re:Industrial Espionage. (1)

OutputLogic (1566511) | more than 2 years ago | (#38486996)

Really? USSR exists very well in my memory, since I lived there for 15 years.

Re:Industrial Espionage. (1, Insightful)

Runaway1956 (1322357) | more than 2 years ago | (#38487428)

Some people have very short memories. In fact, there is a quote for them: “Those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it.” Sir Winston Churchill

Re:Industrial Espionage. (1)

mick_S3 (871725) | more than 2 years ago | (#38487502)

References to Communist Era (when talking about Russia) are as dated as references to pre-WWII tech. Soviet Union doesn't exist even as a memory anymore.

How old are you?

Re:Industrial Espionage. (5, Insightful)

lightknight (213164) | more than 2 years ago | (#38486076)

It's not a lack of free-thinking that the Chinese are experiencing; it's merely a strategy.

The Chinese are playing catch up to Japan / America / Europe / possibly Russia. At this point in the game, it costs less to copy everyone, than to innovate. Once they've caught up, they'll switch to innovating, as copying will not pay as well in comparison. The same thing has happened before with the United States, Britain, etc.

Re:Industrial Espionage. (0)

InterestingFella (2537066) | more than 2 years ago | (#38486216)

This is insightful. It's so funny to see Americans saying how Chinese can't innovate. They are people just like you, and many have great ideas. And there's 1,5 million people. You would be stupid to ignore that fact. There is also lots of Chinese companies that make original things, but you're too spammed and marketed by US companies to see that. Go live there and you see it actually.

Re:Industrial Espionage. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38486230)

This is insightful. It's so funny to see Americans saying how Chinese can't innovate. They are people just like you, and many have great ideas. And there's 1,5 million people. You would be stupid to ignore that fact. There is also lots of Chinese companies that make original things, but you're too spammed and marketed by US companies to see that. Go live there and you see it actually.

What happened? Last I knew there were a couple more than 1,5 million Chinese.

Re:Industrial Espionage. (1)

InterestingFella (2537066) | more than 2 years ago | (#38486262)

*Billion, obviously. Stupid slashcode.

Re:Industrial Espionage. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38486252)

And there's 1,5 million people.

Really???!?

Re:Industrial Espionage. (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38486356)

I'm German and I say that either China can't innovate, or that they choose not to. Come to Germany some time if you want to see real innovation.

Re:Industrial Espionage. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38486488)

How many asian companies invented the...volkswagon bug, after all?

Re:Industrial Espionage. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38486362)

This is insightful. It's so funny to see Americans saying how Chinese can't innovate. They are people just like you, and many have great ideas.

True. They are also good in combining features found in different products and building innovative new gadgets.

Re:Industrial Espionage. (5, Interesting)

Ensign Nemo (19284) | more than 2 years ago | (#38486616)

I lived there for a while, went to Uni there, am married to a Chinese person and have many Chinese friends, both here and in China. I'm very comfortable saying that Chinese people do not innovate very well. In general, creativity and innovation are not traits that are encouraged in Chinese society. The culture encourages conformity and the like. In school, they study very, VERY hard but it's route memorization not creativity. They are much better at copying others' ideas than coming up with their own. That's not US marketing speaking, that's my own observations.

Re:Industrial Espionage. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38487454)

I lived in the US for a while, Arkansas. I'm very comfortable saying that American people are stupid rednecks. Blah blah blah. Nonsense. There's already huge innovation which you failed to see, the kind of innovation which is sadly missing in the US. You sound like a walmart shopper who buys cheap Chinese products and then constructs an entire fantasy opinion out of it. They are already more innovative in product development, art and capitalism. Yes, capitalism. The US is lazy. If I need to order some kind of cable, for example, I can order it in the US and I have it a couple of days later for $50. If I order it on taobao, I have it the next day for $15. The next day, from China. They have 24h world wide shipping now, launching cargo planes non stop to US, Europe and Asian locations. What they're trying to do is to bypass the whole importer/distributor business. Because in a global economy, they can. Just think about that. It is just one example how the US is owned in its own game.

Re:Industrial Espionage. (2)

DarkTempes (822722) | more than 2 years ago | (#38487642)

Stupid rednecks are very innovative people! You should see the things they can do with beer cans alone.

In all seriousness, even if Chinese culture/education doesn't promote creativity or thinking outside of the box, with 1.3 billion people there are bound to be enough 'innovative' engineers for the Chinese to compete with whomever they choose.

Re:Industrial Espionage. (5, Insightful)

JBMcB (73720) | more than 2 years ago | (#38486620)

I have an acquaintance who went over to China and worked with their manufacturing sector for several years. He loved the country, thought the people and culture were very nice, but was not impressed *at all* with their engineering prowess.

The problem isn't that the people are incapable of innovating. The problem is they have no culture or institutions to support innovation. They are trying desperately to change this, but China is run as an enormous top-down bureaucracy. Change isn't going to happen even at a modest pace.

Re:Industrial Espionage. (4, Insightful)

sincewhen (640526) | more than 2 years ago | (#38486640)

They said exactly the same thing about the Japanese, 40-50years ago.
Even when Japan started making superior products at lower prices.
Then Japan took over most high-end manufacturing for a while.

Re:Industrial Espionage. (3, Insightful)

RyuuzakiTetsuya (195424) | more than 2 years ago | (#38487464)

Well, the difference between then and now is pure xenophobia versus some xenophobia mixed in with some real observations.

History is not inevitable. It may have even been true that the Japanese did ape American and European designs, but what will differentiate the Japanese design renaissance and a Chinese one is that Japan wasn't under the control of an autocratic government like China is, nor is their history full of autocrats and strict living.

Some? sure, and it's enough for us in the west to see it as restrictive.

A lot? not enough to stifle innovation and progress. Nissan's able to make a AWD car that is faster around the Nurburgring than Porsche's flagship model that costs twice as much. Sony, Mitsubishi, Hitachi, Yamaha, et al are doing similar work. In Korea? LG, Samsung and so forth are also in the same boat.

Will a Chinese firm do the same? Only time will tell; but I'm willing to bet no. And only 10 bucks because it's possible I could be very wrong.

Re:Industrial Espionage. (1)

symbolset (646467) | more than 2 years ago | (#38486408)

Or maybe not [wikipedia.org] .

Re:Industrial Espionage. (3, Insightful)

Mashiki (184564) | more than 2 years ago | (#38486600)

Well the Chinese only have another 50 years to catch up, the Russians another 20 or so. Murdering your free thinkers, has a tendency of driving you back into the dark ages. Especially in the name of "progress".

Re:Industrial Espionage. (1)

buybuydandavis (644487) | more than 2 years ago | (#38487312)

Wasn't there a recent article about China leading the world in patent applications?

Re:Industrial Espionage. (2)

Lazy Jones (8403) | more than 2 years ago | (#38486088)

China has a tremendous skill-set that while works very well for reverse engineering and building things, does not work so well where free-thinking innovation are needed to make advances.

It's a big mistake to underestimate their abilities... Just 3 days ago we read that China surpassed the USA as top patent filer [financialpost.com] .

Re:Industrial Espionage. (3, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38486136)

Patent filing has nothing to do with legitimate abilities.

Re:Industrial Espionage. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38486150)

What about the absurdly long list of Chinese inventions? How does that factor in to this blanket theory of intrinsic Chinese talents?

China has been the source of many significant inventions, including the Four Great Inventions: papermaking, the compass, gunpowder, and printing (both woodblock and movable type). The list below contains these and other inventions.

The Chinese invented technologies involving mechanics, hydraulics, and mathematics applied to horology, metallurgy, astronomy, agriculture, engineering, music theory, craftsmanship, nautics, and warfare. By the Warring States Period (403â"221 BC), they had advanced metallurgic technology, including the blast furnace and cupola furnace, while the finery forge and puddling process were known by the Han Dynasty (202 BC â" AD 220). A sophisticated economic system in China gave birth to inventions such as paper money during the Song Dynasty (960â"1279). The invention of gunpowder by the 10th century led to an array of inventions such as the fire lance, land mine, naval mine, hand cannon, exploding cannonballs, multistage rocket, and rocket bombs with aerodynamic wings and explosive payloads. With the navigational aid of the 11th-century compass and ability to steer at high sea with the 1st-century sternpost rudder, premodern Chinese sailors sailed as far as East Africa and Egypt.[1][2][3] In water-powered clockworks, the premodern Chinese had used the escapement mechanism since the 8th century and the endless power-transmitting chain drive in the 11th century. They also made large mechanical puppet theaters driven by waterwheels and carriage wheels and wine-serving automatons driven by paddle wheel boats.
A man in black armor standing in front of a rocket, attached to a stick, with the stick being held up by two X shaped wooden brackets.
History of science and
technology in China
Inventions
Discoveries
By era
Han Dynasty
Tang Dynasty
Song Dynasty
People's Republic of China
Present-day China
This box:

        view
        talk
        edit

The contemporaneous Peiligang and Pengtoushan cultures represent the oldest Neolithic cultures of China and were formed around 7000 BC.[4] Some of the first inventions of Neolithic, prehistoric China include semilunar and rectangular stone knives, stone hoes and spades, the cultivation of millet, rice and the soybean, the refinement of sericulture, the building of rammed earth structures with lime-plastered house floors,...

Re:Industrial Espionage. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38486512)

Your cut and paste abilities awe me. What have we done since communism?

Re:Industrial Espionage. (1)

superwiz (655733) | more than 2 years ago | (#38486902)

I had no idea Slashdot predates the end of the Cold War.

Re:Industrial Espionage. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38486520)

You completely missed the point. I don't care that the Chinese are good inventors, or that they aren't.
I'm just saying that "patents filed" is a completely wrong way to measure such things, and the previous poster's use thereof was utterly reprehensible and devoid of merit.

Re:Industrial Espionage. (4, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38486102)

The russians already tried to design an all-purpose CPU : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elbrus_2000
(the Elbrus Team and it's IP has been bought by Intel. Surprise...NOT.)

Re:Industrial Espionage. (2)

Samantha Wright (1324923) | more than 2 years ago | (#38486404)

Such irony—the Russians invented the art of reverse-engineering American chips. Observe [cpushack.com] !

that's the same lies they used to say about USSR (5, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38486412)

look i grew up my whole life during the cold war, my dad worked on bombers, my uncles were in the navy / air force.
it was the same shit day after day : "The Russians dont know how to invent everything, they copy from us"

now the cold war ends. what do we find out?

The Soviets did quite a shitload of innovative, amazing stuff. They built a lunar rover, that i never was taught about in school. Their rocket program was amazing. Korolev was amazing. Sakharov invented a different way to do Hydrogen bombs - and then he became a dissident. The Soviet computers had some interesting features - there is a video of a physics-simulated cat on a BSEM6. Solzhenytsin's book The First Circle is about scientists working in a prison research institute... what were they working on? Voice print recognition. Sure, it was horrible, and in service of an evil state... but technologically they didn't copy anything from anyone. Then there are the late model SU and MiG jets. Not to mention the Mig 15 which killed our boys in Korea.

now people are saying all this shit about China. well, its bullshit. China will be 'non creative' until they invent some invisible airplane or something. They are people, and people are creative. Human beings are creative.

Re:Industrial Espionage. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38486486)

There are some relatively innovative approaches used in the Godson-T system (DTA [youtube.com] ). This year's Hot Chips conference material is available already. It's more difficult to say about Russian projects as there are really not many trade barriers left and they invest semiconductor companies just like everybody else.

Now that they've stolen our IP... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38485988)

what's left but to flaunt it?

By 2018 (4, Insightful)

ackthpt (218170) | more than 2 years ago | (#38486032)

We'll probably have Petaflop computers on our desks, if not in our laps. Apparently so we can manage the bloat of operating systems (which will no longer be popping up balloons, but nagging you with voice and expecting voice back) and gigabyte webpages, which tell you nothing you can't see now, but are built layer upon layer of cruft.

Re:By 2018 (3, Funny)

cultiv8 (1660093) | more than 2 years ago | (#38486084)

I disagree. By 2018 we'll all be in the cloud and not need to worry about petaflops and extraflops and all of those other things that make computing so darn hard.

Re:By 2018 (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38486438)

But what you should ask yourself is whether the trade for convenience beats the trade you make for surrendering your rights to your own data...

Don't get sucked into the cloud. You'll regret it.

Re:By 2018 We will have changed course or sunk. (1)

leftover (210560) | more than 2 years ago | (#38486550)

I fear this is true. The remarkable shortage of visionaries in leadership positions handicaps US relative to nearly everyone else.
Add the effect of the Wall Street/investment shysters and We are scrod (past pluperfect for the grammar nazis).
IMHO, this is the problem the ./ crowd should be working to counter. Much more important than which window manager to use.

2012 will certainly not be a happy new year unless We make it better.
That is as cheerful as I can be.

Re:By 2018 (3, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38486870)

By 2018 every company in the US is so busy suing other company's about complete trivial software patents, that innovation has crashed and stopped about 5 years before. Nobody can develop anything any more, because the tiniest things are patented and development is becoming too expensive. The only ones making money around then are the lawyers. This situation is developing at this moment already, and is not going to stop.

And in the mean time the rest of the world is going forward...

Re:By 2018 (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38486978)

By 2011 every company in the US is so busy suing other company's about complete trivial software patents, that innovation has crashed and stopped about 5 years before. Nobody can develop anything any more, because the tiniest things are patented and development is becoming too expensive. The only ones making money around then are the lawyers. This situation is developing at this moment already, and is not going to stop.

And in the mean time the rest of the world is going forward...

FTFY

I look forward to the day... (2)

stox (131684) | more than 2 years ago | (#38486042)

we once more have a broad set of different processors and architectures to choose from. Competition will stimulate more creative designs and solutions.

Re:I look forward to the day... (4, Insightful)

theshowmecanuck (703852) | more than 2 years ago | (#38486176)

This is a symptom of the flawed patent system in America. It has lead to a lack of competition. Now instead of many companies driving technological innovation, there are a small number of big companies and patent trolls intent on holding it up for ransom. So far the resistance to the same sort of patent death spiral in Europe gives them a chance to make this attempt they are making work. But if the megacorp's and patent troll's political bribes (sorry I meant to say lobbying) work over there, they will be screwed too. So here's to Europe, may she reign supreme in technology. Too bad the ship seems to be sinking over here.

pretty sure he uses that line on all occasions (1)

Trepidity (597) | more than 2 years ago | (#38486128)

"[Technology segment] is a challenge, and indeed an opportunity for Europe to become a global [segment] leader", said [person], who is the European Commission's project officer for [some thing].

Re:pretty sure he uses that line on all occasions (4, Funny)

dkleinsc (563838) | more than 2 years ago | (#38486250)

Reminds me of my favorite generic speech template:

"I wish to speak to you all on the important subject of _____. As you all know, much has been done in this area, but there are still a great many things left to do. But knowing this is not enough, it will take real effort and dedication. What we need now is progress. I need progress, I request progress, I demand progress! I am certain, though, that with focus and teamwork, we can continue to make the changes that will allow for a better future. Thank you all for your time."

Re:pretty sure he uses that line on all occasions (1)

mr_stinky_britches (926212) | more than 2 years ago | (#38486446)

Wish I had mod-points for you, kind sir!

Where is the infrastructure? (3, Interesting)

Wyatt Earp (1029) | more than 2 years ago | (#38486286)

Russia doesn't have the silicon crystal production facilities, they'll be stuck using the same European, American and Japanese lithography tools everyone else does, no fabs, no economies of scales for production like Samsung, Intel, AMD, Toshiba, etc have.

Re:Where is the infrastructure? (3, Insightful)

ChatHuant (801522) | more than 2 years ago | (#38486618)

Russia doesn't have the silicon crystal production facilities

 
If Russia decides some products, like silicon wafers for example, are strategically important and American or other external producers can not be trusted (for security, military or simply business reasons), price becomes a secondary consideration and economies of scale will not matter. Russia can afford to buy the most up to date tools, or they can build their own (maybe not as cheap as others, but that, as I said, wouldn't matter). And I think the Russian leadership still has the courage and political capability to start and finance long term strategic research and development programs, which, unfortunately, the USA leadership seems to have lost lately.

Re:Where is the infrastructure? (4, Insightful)

temcat (873475) | more than 2 years ago | (#38487396)

They have the capability to finance every kind of shit. They just don't have the other, crucial capability - to have the shit actually done. There's no problem with money, it's just that it's either wasted completely or ends up in the pockets of some selected friends of gov't beaurocrats.

Microsoft, bitches! (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38486290)

You are owned by the American tech industry, fucks. Microsoft forever, faggots, and there isn't a goddamned thing you can do about it. Now make me laugh by saying you can just use Linsux. We own you. Hahahahahahahaha

Re:Microsoft, bitches! (5, Funny)

colinrichardday (768814) | more than 2 years ago | (#38486394)

Microsoft forever, faggots, and there isn't a goddamned thing you can do about it.

I'm pretty sure the Russians could still hit Redmond with an ICBM.

If not China or Russia... (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38486340)

It might not be China or Russia or not. It might be some other country or countries. But it *will* be someone. Yes, America will be surpassed and it won't be because somebody stole their precious "IP".

Re:If not China or Russia... (4, Insightful)

foniksonik (573572) | more than 2 years ago | (#38486522)

It's already someone else. Intel, etc aren't American. They are a multinational. They barely pay American taxes. Most of their employees are in other countries.

This is all a farce.

HPC is mostly useless (0)

gweihir (88907) | more than 2 years ago | (#38486506)

Its main purpose is for politicians to set themselves monuments. This "U.S. tech dependency" is also just a fiction.

Re:HPC is mostly useless (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38487146)

You're an idiot. Please castrate yourself and anyone related to you.

NOTICE HOW SLASHDOT READS LIKE SUPERMARKET TABLOID (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38486516)

What is it with this ?? How to lose a man and gain a women in 10 days ?? Pretty much all that is here anymore !! YOU SUCK !! Bring back the Taco man before I do something you will regret !!

How are supercomputers relevant? (1)

BlueCoder (223005) | more than 2 years ago | (#38486566)

Way back in the beginning you could see them as single computers but nowadays a supercomputer looks more like a local network of computers or a local cloud/cluster. Where does the computer start and stop?

Science centers certainly need the computing power but I can't see how relevant it is to think of these specialized clusters as a single computer or how one rates against another. These clusters are constantly being upgraded and expanded. The interconnects and topology is the only interesting thing but you can't necessarily compare two systems since every system is specialized for certain calculations and software.

What Europe accomplished with Airbus (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38486624)

Think what Europe accomplished with Airbus.

A extremely safe airliner that is theoretically idiot proof...
 
... until something goes wrong and two actual, real, live, genuine French idiots manage to crash it into the sea while the captain is trying to take a nap.

Re:What Europe accomplished with Airbus (1)

temcat (873475) | more than 2 years ago | (#38487406)

You can idiot proof things only so much. Boeing is not immune from idiocy, and there are as many examples to that. Recall Aeroflot Flight 821 (aka Perm crash).

The Soviets once reverse engineered our chips (2)

MichaelCrawford (610140) | more than 2 years ago | (#38486644)

But that got harder when we shrunk our processes. That had the result of forcing them to learn how to design their own chips, thereby boosting their economy.

My cousin speaks fluent Russian. There is no room to stand let alone sit in his apartment because of all the giant stacks of books. I know enough Russian that I could tell what the books were about. All of them were advanced physics and electrical engineering texts.

The Russians are no fools. Their educational system is excellent. It had to be under the soviets to have any hope of them surviving the cold war.

education is only 1/2 the problem (4, Insightful)

slew (2918) | more than 2 years ago | (#38486912)

One of the big things that improves the speed of innovation is the ability to fail. This is still one of the big problems that needs to be conquered. You need lots of groups trying different avenues to ferret out the key innovations that push the state of the art forward. One of the problems with the command-style-economies is that although they could build up industries efficiently, they are simultaneously captive to those industries by continued government funding resuting in economic inefficiency (in the best case), or a military/industrial complex (in the worst case). From what I can tell, basically you need lots of serial entrepenuers, copy-cat followers and venture capital to push tech forward.

Not to say that the USA has this problem licked (see the defense spending culture or wall street as examples), but there are no clear signs yet that china, europe or russia has a sustainable approach to this problem that the USA seems to have. If they get better at figuring out how to fund innovation and defund obsolete industries, they will probably have both the ingredients needed to create a sustainable tech revolution that could wean itself from the USA tech industry.

From what it appears, right now china and europe are in focus-on-money mode trying to attract multi-national corporate investment which gets lots of progress quickly, but doesn't seem that sustainable as the government is still picking the winners and losers (e.g. who gets the tax breaks and who gets the operating licences). I honestly don't follow the situation in russia very closely for tech, but my understand is that big investment is still mostly in traditional industries rather than tech (natural resource expliotation). If this is true, the result of this is a problem of not enough native customers for native tech companies (another problem for sustainable growth).

Not to say they won't get there, but at least it seems to me that the evidence isn't there that they are on the cusp of anything... Remember, the leaders/founders of Intel and Nvidia didn't just graduate from school and start billion dollar companies. They worked for other multi-million dollar companies before starting those companies. And not all of those people that worked for those same multi-million dollar companies and left to start companies went on to found billion dollar companies either. And it wasn't just about Intel and Nvidia either, if Applied Materials didn't exist, you probably wouldn't have Intel fabs (or TSMC fabs) and so-on and so-forth. A whole ecosystem of companies need to exist. And for each of them, there needed to be some losers for there to be winners and some people willing to take a chance to lose some money to make some money.

Education was only 1/2 the problem. Ironically, education is perhaps the easiest 1/2 to solve (in the USA, apparently we just import people to educate and to do the education).

Re:The Soviets once reverse engineered our chips (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38487184)

You see, reading and learning those subjects is only about 5% of what it takes to actually *do* advanced physicals and electrical engineering (or computer science, for that matter).

Re:The Soviets once reverse engineered our chips (1)

q.kontinuum (676242) | more than 2 years ago | (#38487636)

I'd say, rather 50%. Nowadays technology is so complex you can't start by being intelligent and thinking structured, you have to get a head start by learning also the existing inventions. And also, those too lazy / incapable to do the learning from books will not succeed because of their laziness.
I work in Germany and have some Russian colleagues and interviewed some applicants, and most Russians I met are eager and capable to learn. For them, learning is a very valid way to become something, while some people from western culture (richer European countries as well as USA) are too arrogant to see the need to learn, because they feel so advanced already and think live owes them a decent live for being born so advanced.

Of course this is only a statistical observation. Obviously there are some very dumb/lazy Russians and some very clever/diligent Americans/Europeans as well.

Re:The Soviets once reverse engineered our chips (1)

Issarlk (1429361) | more than 2 years ago | (#38487296)

Clearly the russians are very good. There was a robotic competitions my school participated in, some simple path following on a checkerboard. The russians with their robot - seemingly assembled with 20 year old components - left everyone else in the dust. They have very good scientists and engineer.
But the question for me is: do they date back from USSR, and does current Russia manage to educate more of them.

RocketskiSim 1.0... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38486782)

I suppose they'll need it to do system-level simulations of their launch platforms and industrial processes. But, if their physical build processes are messed up, how are they going to validate the simulation?

Uses for exascale machines? (2, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38487258)

As a scientific user of large HPC machines like Franklin, Hopper, HECToR etc., this race for exascale machines seems like the tail wagging the dog. There are currently very very few codes which can actually use an exascale supercomputer, due to the extreme parallelism needed. If you have to make use of several hundred thousand cores, anything beyond embarrassingly parallel montecarlo problems have problems moving data around. Something like Intel's Knight's Corner chip might help OpenMP-MPI hybrid codes, but a lot of conferences now are focussed on how to design codes to make use of these big machines. More useful would be to put the money into more smaller (say 100,000 core) machines, so more runs can be done with different inputs.

The CS guys love doing a single massive run which burns through CPU time on headline-grabbing number of processors, but actually that's not very useful for scientific research. More useful is to be able to run the code tens or hundreds of times with a quick turnaround (not waiting days in a queue) with different inputs. Whilst this exascale race is a good way to get money into the maths/CS labs, in my opinion it's not going to give the massive leap in understanding which is promised.

The real problem... (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38487356)

The situation is that the large operating system vendor (Microsoft) in the world hails from the US, and is prepared to do anything in order to maintain that position.

The largest Microprocessor vendor (Intel) hails from the US and is prepared to do anything in order to maintain that position.

The largest artistic software manufacturer (Adobe) in the world hails from the US and is prepared to do anything in order to maintain that position.

The list goes on...

Meanwhile, every country in the world gives them all the tools they need to in order to maintain that position (patents, insane copyright laws, etc.) We see that specifically with Apple, who does not like Android (which is a serious competitor on the mobile phone market for its iOS). Apple is using patents as an extortion mechanism and nobody is doing anything about it.

Until this legal environment, which favors large companies, is dealt with; the situation will remain the same. YOu see, the moment somebody has an interesting idea he's either bought out or destroyed by any of these companies.

The other aspect of the problem is that the US government refuses to do anything about this situation, while these very companies are killing the world economy.

we europeans are 1337 (1)

zugedneb (601299) | more than 2 years ago | (#38487560)

i have become a troll, but by god, the world is begging for it :DDDDD

so we buy american processors, american operating systems (or copies of it) slap the shit in a box, and call it our own...

the europeans by now do not even remember the concept of having something of their own. also, they have bocome lazy like hell, and generally avoid speaking of anything that reminds of work...

man, i should come upp with something insulting, but just can't in this one :DDDD

NIMBY (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38487650)

I can understand why out of patriotism a country would want an industrial base in an important industry. What I don't understand is why someone would want to try and fail to reinvent or bypass existing working, advanced, advancing and optimized equipment for a task. To me as value added as the chips are, the real value add is in integrating them into a system and far above that again what you do with that system

What is more valuable? The price of your phone or computer and its associated network and maintenance and software costs, or what you do with it?

At some point a first order analysis of the real problem and real solution should be undertaken before you haul off and simply say, let's make it all here. Here is not necessarily better, and like Russian automobiles, it does make jobs, but it does not make better cars. There are a great deal of things Russians do well and they have perhaps the largest greenfield on the planet times 2 or 3, but it should be employed and exploited in a way that best serves the people and the continued rise of lifestyles, without necessarily targeting specific products like good old central planning did. It was not so good after all.

Merry Christmas to all especially in Russia and Europe.

JJ

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