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No IPv6 Doomsday In 2012

timothy posted more than 2 years ago | from the get-your-panic-while-supplies-last dept.

Networking 233

itwbennett writes "Yes, IPv4 addresses are running out, but a Y2K-style disaster/frenzy won't be coming in 2012. Instead, businesses are likely to spend the coming year preparing to upgrade to IPv6, experts say. Of course there's a chance that panic will ensue when Europe's RIPE hands out its last IPv4 addresses this summer, but 'most [businesses] understand that they can live without having to make any major investments immediately,' said IDC analyst Nav Chander. Plus, it won't be until 2013 that North America will run out of IPv4 addresses and there's no sense getting worked up before then."

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Business as usual (4, Insightful)

InterestingFella (2537066) | more than 2 years ago | (#38528424)

ISP's and hosting companies will not run out of IPs. This only means that the price per IP will start to slowly grow. Hell, every time I order server the companies still happily hand me over 5 IPs without me even asking for them. With a simple request I can also buy 256 ips for the price of $300 a year.

Re:Business as usual (5, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38528464)

a Y2K-style disaster/frenzy won't be coming in 2012. Instead, businesses are likely to spend the coming year preparing to upgrade to IPv6

Sounds just like a Y2K-style disaster/frenzy.

Re:Business as usual (1)

DamnStupidElf (649844) | more than 2 years ago | (#38528626)

Sounds just like a Y2K-style disaster/frenzy.

Pretty much. It's a technical problem that is being solved incrementally over a period of years so that there aren't eventually widespread shortages or other major problems (NAT is pretty much the two digit year format). "Normal" people got frenzied over technical issues, but of course they'll also frenzy over some person on TV having a scripted event happen to them.

Re:Business as usual (1)

Culture20 (968837) | more than 2 years ago | (#38529640)

It's a technical problem that is being solved incrementally over a period of years so that there aren't eventually widespread shortages or other major problems (NAT is pretty much the two digit year format).

NAT is more like checking the code to make sure a jump from 99 to 00 won't hurt anything, then sticking with the two-digit format. It's IPv4, but it's a semi-solution.

Re:Business as usual (4, Insightful)

Columcille (88542) | more than 2 years ago | (#38529834)

And the good news about this is "normal people" don't have a clue what you're talking about when mentioning ipv4 or ipv6. Tell them, "We're about to run out of IP addresses!" and they'll blink at you. Tell them, "No! PANIC! IPV4 IS ALL FILLT UP!" and they will call for some friendly people to take you to a padded room. Tell them, "Oh, and we have a problem with programs that use a two digit year instead of a four digit year" and they will build disaster shelters.

Re:Business as usual (1)

geekprime (969454) | more than 2 years ago | (#38529872)

That was a very profitable time for all my consultant friends and I.

I look forward to businesses putting it off till the last possible second and paying me double to do it RIGHT NOW!!!!!!

Re:Business as usual (1)

SJHillman (1966756) | more than 2 years ago | (#38528474)

During an ISP changeover in March, we only needed one IP but the ISP gave us a block of 4. Hmm, maybe we can resell the extras...

Re:Business as usual (1)

SJHillman (1966756) | more than 2 years ago | (#38528556)

On second thought, maybe I can finally get a static IP at home. Damnit Time Warner, let me have a static IP.

Re:Business as usual (2)

pak9rabid (1011935) | more than 2 years ago | (#38528610)

You can...it's called Time Warner Business Class [twcbc.com] . And besides, with stuff like DynDNS, why do you even need a static IP for your home?

Re:Business as usual (1)

SJHillman (1966756) | more than 2 years ago | (#38528770)

With stuff like DynDNS why do you need a static IP anywhere? It's useful for VPNing into my home network, setting up DNS (dynamic DNS only goes so far), hosting a webserver, etc... same as any commercial use for people that host stuff at home.

Also, you generally can't get Time Warner Business Class in an apartment.

Re:Business as usual (1)

InterestingFella (2537066) | more than 2 years ago | (#38528816)

Get VPN connection from a company that offers static ip's to users, or host VPN server on your servers. Problem solved.

Re:Business as usual (2)

pak9rabid (1011935) | more than 2 years ago | (#38529176)

Don't use a stupid VPN solution. Last I checked, OpenVPN works just fine over a dynamic IP.

Re:Business as usual (1)

Culture20 (968837) | more than 2 years ago | (#38530012)

With stuff like DynDNS why do you need a static IP anywhere?

Whenever I'm SSH'd into work from home, I have to remember to run screen because my IP address changes almost nightly, and it seems to be always when I'm in the flow.

Re:Business as usual (3, Informative)

Shakrai (717556) | more than 2 years ago | (#38528800)

why do you even need a static IP for your home?

The question I'd like to ask is why don't they just hand out a static IP by default? The vast majority of broadband connections are always on; they aren't saving IPs by handing out dynamic assignments.

Of course I already know the answer to my question. It can be located above the '4' key on most keyboards...

Re:Business as usual (1)

InterestingFella (2537066) | more than 2 years ago | (#38528950)

Of course I already know the answer to my question. It can be located above the '4' key on most keyboards...

Â? $ is on the side of '4' ;-)

Re:Business as usual (2)

Eevee (535658) | more than 2 years ago | (#38529124)

t can be located above the '4' key on most keyboards...

Well, on my Dell keyboards it's the F4 key (slightly offset), but on my HP and Sun keyboards it's F3.

Re:Business as usual (2)

DocSavage64109 (799754) | more than 2 years ago | (#38529840)

On my keyboard, it's a 7 key.

Re:Business as usual (4, Informative)

pak9rabid (1011935) | more than 2 years ago | (#38529264)

The question I'd like to ask is why don't they just hand out a static IP by default?

There's a few good reasons off the top of my head that I can think of:

  • - Dynamic IPs cut a lot of bullshit out of support calls
  • - DHCP servers hand out more information that just IPs (default gateway, DNS servers, domain, etc)
  • - ISPs like to have the option of re-allocating blocks of IPs without having to call hundreds/thousands of customers to have them renumber their equipment

Re:Business as usual (4, Informative)

XanC (644172) | more than 2 years ago | (#38529296)

DHCP can be used to hand out a static IP.

Re:Business as usual (1)

jandrese (485) | more than 2 years ago | (#38529400)

Not easily if the end user is prone to changing out their hardware (plugging in only one thing at a time into the router, like the instructions told them to do).

Re:Business as usual (1)

pjr.cc (760528) | more than 2 years ago | (#38528958)

And besides, with stuff like DynDNS, why do you even need a static IP for your home?

ahhh, well, depends what you do from home doesn't it? take this as an example of why dyndns doesnt really solve some of the problems static-ip-for-home does..

1) my dns entry "me.dyndns.org", points to my current dynamic home ip
2) i run a webserver, chat server (xmpp), mail server perhaps... many different things you could list here
3) my home internet switches off for some reason and i loose my dynamic ip address.
4) someone else logs on and gets my ip adress while im offline
5) someone else starts getting a bunch of connection attempts....

Note: "me" and "my" in this scenario are hypothetical, not actual references to me specifically.

The effect of which can be somewhere between unnoticeable and catastrophic, if you really think it thru... Personally i do run a web server on my home machine for unimportant things and only for me, but there are lots of scenario's where some service your expecting to send data to on your old ip address may expose something you didnt want someone else to see... Then again, it may lead to something more annoying like the user who's getting random connection attempts assumes he's being hacked and acts accordingly...

Re:Business as usual (1)

GPLHost-Thomas (1330431) | more than 2 years ago | (#38529598)

5) someone else starts getting a bunch of connection attempts....

6) that someone else also runs a mail server, and it's replying "no such domain / user", and sender receives a bounce message

Re:Business as usual (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38528580)

When you do this you fragment the routing table so bad it will cause worse issues than being out of IPs....

Re:Business as usual (1)

EdIII (1114411) | more than 2 years ago | (#38528662)

I did not even bother. I got 16 static IP addresses on of my last orders and I told them flat out on the phone I only need 1. You can keep the other 15.

I ended up keeping 2 to split the network off, but let them keep the other 14.

How do you sell it anyways? It's not like I can call up the ISP and tell them to transfer 14 IP addresses to a different account like a telephone number.

Re:Business as usual (1)

Aighearach (97333) | more than 2 years ago | (#38528584)

he.net won't run out, because they're already ready with ipv6!

This story is actually great news for a lot of geeks, get your selves over to H.E. and get your free ipv6 certs in time for this wonderful pre-Y2K year of bounty!!!

Re:Business as usual (2)

bbn (172659) | more than 2 years ago | (#38529382)

If you are using Debuan/Ubuntu/etc just do this simple command:

sudo apt-get install gogoc

Tada! You got IPv6. Test it at http://test-ipv6.com/ [test-ipv6.com]

Re:Business as usual (1)

Qzukk (229616) | more than 2 years ago | (#38528944)

ISP's and hosting companies will not run out of IPs.

No, no, of course not.

This only means that the price per IP will start to slowly grow.

Yes, yes, of course it will.

Claiming that the second will prevent the other is like claiming that if I have an expensive enough metal detector I'll find the pirate treasure in my backyard. You can claim that the last IP will be held ransom for trillions of dollars and never sell, the counterclaim is that there's an upper bound to what people will pay for IPs, the price will find that boundary, and the last of them will sell at that maximum price.

Re:Business as usual (1)

bbn (172659) | more than 2 years ago | (#38529470)

There is no such thing as the last IP. You can always take one from another customer that pays less. What, you thought that address you paid extra for was yours to keep for ever? Not so.

In some cases the address space is actually yours to keep. But even then, there will be a price where you will choose to sell it. And if not you, then someone else.

Artificial scarcity (1)

mcrbids (148650) | more than 2 years ago | (#38529672)

Also, strangely, the need for additional IP addresses is also on the decline, as the ability to manage NAT traversal improves. Using technologies such as wildcard SSL certs with subdomains rather than individual certs for each IP address, SSL/TLS for HTTP, STUN for VOIP traffic, and so on gradually ease pressure on the need for public IP addresses.

I'm not saying that IPV6 is DOA, but the cost of IP addresses will grow slowly enough that the transition will take a very, very long time. Our colo hasn't yet announced IPV6 capability [heraklesdata.com] , though they are expected to sometime this year. As soon as they support it, we'll roll out support for all our products shortly thereafter even though initial demand is almost nonexistent.

Business opportunity (4, Insightful)

ccguy (1116865) | more than 2 years ago | (#38528444)

Well, anyone looking to make some big bucks in the next 1-3 year should start learning IPv6. Nothing major needed, just setup a IPv6 network at home, if you can rent an external server with IPv6 in any of the many data centers that already offer it, and play with it.

It's not a lot of effort and there will be many highly paid job offers soon.

Re:Business opportunity (2, Insightful)

rubycodez (864176) | more than 2 years ago | (#38528562)

I doubt much "highly paid jobs", it'll just get thrown onto the backs of IT droids with the rest of the crap they have to do (speaking as one myself)

Re:Business opportunity (3, Insightful)

SJHillman (1966756) | more than 2 years ago | (#38528592)

I think he means you can hire yourself out as an "IPv6 Changeover Consultant", spend ten minutes coming up with an IPv6 addressing scheme and then passing it on the the IT droids while taking the credit and the money.

Re:Business opportunity (2)

pak9rabid (1011935) | more than 2 years ago | (#38528720)

Lots of SMB's don't have "IT droids". This actually would be a good opportunity for people such as yourself to break away from the shackles of corporate IT and write your own ticket as a consultant/contractor.

Re:Business opportunity (1)

Aighearach (97333) | more than 2 years ago | (#38528604)

That's how the free he.net cert works, they give you the lesson, and it involves setting up the tunnel and then configuring a local server to match each lesson.

Re:Business opportunity (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38528618)

What's to learn? Either the people making your IP stack did it right or not.

Re:Business opportunity (2)

interval1066 (668936) | more than 2 years ago | (#38529208)

The last few times I installed an os (which were Windows and Linux machines) they came with ipv6 stacks, and it seemed like very little configuration was nessessary. In fact, if I recall, the configuration instructions were how to turn the ipv6 stack off if you wanted to do that. It seemed to be on by default.

Re:Business opportunity (5, Interesting)

EdIII (1114411) | more than 2 years ago | (#38528814)

The problem is not learning IPv6. That's easy. At least to anyone with more than a little experience doing this. I was working before the Internet even came around and before Ethernet, so I don't see it as a big obstacle.

Where is all the fucking Enterprise hardware and firmware updates to support it?.

That's what needs to be solved. I could support IPv6 tomorrow if it was a simple firmware change. IPv6 will not be rolled out into Enterprise environments for at least 10-15 years completely. Reason why is simple. Not every network device supports it. I got clients that still have 5 years or more to go on lease contracts for huge printer and document systems. No IPv6 firmware updates in the pipeline that I know about.

Operating systems will be faster of course, but you need to cover all of the devices first.

My biggest issue is the routers themselves. If you are running a business or have branch offices, you are not, or should not, be doing that on any hardware you can pick up at BestBuy. Prosumer or higher routers that can set up multiple WAN ports don't have IPv6 yet. Perhaps the absolute newest ones might, but that could represent 20-30k in new equipment costs for a medium sized business with branch offices. For what? Just IPv6?

Unless the manufactures get off their asses, stop being greedy, and push out a firmware update for existing hardware to support IPv6 there will be a lot of people like me that have two choices:

1) Stay with IPv4
2) Spend tens of thousands of dollars on new hardware.

Tough situation.

P.S - Why do any of that until at least 1/3rd of all customers are using IPv6?

Re:Business opportunity (1)

equex (747231) | more than 2 years ago | (#38529038)

Yeah, until someone declares IPV4 'a security risk' and a 'terrorist network'.

Way harder than a firmware update. (3, Interesting)

Sycraft-fu (314770) | more than 2 years ago | (#38529150)

For cheap consumer devices that do everything in software, sure a firmware update is all it would take, at least in theory (IPv6 can take more memory and CPU so on limited devices there might not be enough). However enterprise networking devices? They usually have to have parts replaced.

Reason is that to get the kind of speeds and latencies we want, you need ASICs, Application Specific Integrated Circuits. Those are just what they sound like: Devices designed to do a specific thing. That also means they aren't programmable. ASICs allow us to do stuff cheaper and faster than we could do in software.

A simple example is a gigabit switch. Crack one open and you see a very small little chip that handles all the switching. Now try it with a PC, stick in 8 gigabit cards and have it bridge between them. It'll overwhelm it, despite having a powerful CPU. Reason the switch can handle it is that little chip does nothing but switch packets. It is designed for only one task and does it well.

So enterprise stuff has this too, but some more complex ones. You get ASICs to speed up routing. Problem is if the ASIC was made for IPv4, it cannot be expanded to IPv6. You need a new one.

On the campus where I work they upgraded all the big routers to do IPv6 and it was pricey, seven figures even with our discounts. All the supervisor modules had to be replaced. Now yes, before that they could have technically turned it on, there was IPv6 for IOS on the older stuff. However it was all done in CPU, which is pretty limited on those routers. So if a couple people used it, it'd be fine. However if lots of people did, it'd crash the routers. The only way to give them the capacity to support it for everyone was to get new IPv6 hardware.

It isn't a matter of being greedy. As I said, Cisco would let you turn IPv6 on for many devices, like the 6500/7600s we use. It just couldn't accelerate it because it lacked the hardware. No magic fix for that.

Remember high end networking equipment isn't replaced often. You can leave it in place for over a decade. They aren't going to replace it all just for fun.

Re:Way harder than a firmware update. (3, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38529398)

A PC will handle layer 2 bridging just fine /w 8 ports. There really isn't a whole lot of effort involved in shoving packets around like that. Did you base your statement on actual observation or did you pull it out of your ass?

Those desktop 5 and 8 port switches from Linksys or whatever have "switch on a chip" type IC's because they're cheap, not because they're wonderfully efficient (though obviously lower power and better latency than a PCI bus)

Obviously in a datacenter, you want a real switch.. They're more efficient, lower latency, easier to manage, and have a full array of enterprise management and configuration capabilities.

Re:Way harder than a firmware update. (1)

EdIII (1114411) | more than 2 years ago | (#38529432)

I can understand switches needing to be replaced, but that is typically less expensive than a router. That would not break us. Additionally, we can have a hybrid environment internally at least.

It comes down the router. I did not think about the ASIC only being able to handle IPv4. At least not on a multi-thousand dollar router.

You bring up a good point, and it is going to be very very hard to justify the expense for business until consumer adoption reaches a certain point.

It's like a major business push to be supporting something browser specific when that browser has less than 1% of the market share and the costs of support and implementation are non-trivial to say the least.

To my knowledge DD-WRT does have IPv6 support, so consumer adoption is possible for that small portion of the market, which means it is possible for the major manufacturers to push out an update for consumers. Even an advertisement campaign, rewards, etc.

It would be in their interests too. If I knew that consumer adoption was reaching even 25% for IPv6 I would start seriously considering the financial investment for the new routers from the manufacturers.

Until then, if they want me to spend 5k plus on a router, it must have more benefits than just IPv6.

Basically, it is not businesses that can push this, but consumers first. ISP>Consumers>Businesses. Only way I see it making sense for us.

Re:Business opportunity (1)

pjr.cc (760528) | more than 2 years ago | (#38529262)

I'd love to know what hardware your running that doesnt have ipv6 support.... just about every supportable, mainstream vendor does, the short list:

- juniper (screenos and junos)
- cisco
- avaya
- netgear
- hp
- ibm

Actually, I take it back, theres too many. If your running gear right now that cant do a firmware upgrade to support ipv6, you really should be considering replacing it cause it must be decades old. Even still-supported decades old kit from cisco has ipv6 support via firmware upgrades.

To be honest, I cant really think of many vendors that dont support it off the top of my head.

Re:Business opportunity (3, Informative)

bbn (172659) | more than 2 years ago | (#38529576)

HP did a quick one. We got a ton of IPv6 enabled HP 2910al HP layer 3 gigabit switches. Did I say layer 3? What I meant was layer 3 IPv4 and managed layer 2 IPv6 switches.

Yes, HP apparently figured the switch would qualify for all those government deals that mandates IPv6 support. I bet they were right. But the switches are just some very expensive managed switches for any IPv6 work. No support for routing IPv6 nor any other useful IPv6 support. But you _can_ telnet, ssh, SNMP etc to them using IPv6. The switch can be assigned an IPv6 address. So this qualifies for an IPv6 gold logo. They just do not advertise very loud that it is a logo for a "client"-device.

So does HP suck? Not especially so. It is the whole industry pulling this stunt.

Re:Business opportunity (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38529280)

Prosumer or higher routers that can set up multiple WAN ports don't have IPv6 yet. Perhaps the absolute newest ones might, but that could represent 20-30k in new equipment costs for a medium sized business with branch offices. For what? Just IPv6?

Umm... Find a better vendor? Juniper has IPv6 support in their SRX series which are built specifically for "Branch" networks. And that sub-$1000 price tag for the 100 (no GigE) and 210 (2 GigE ports) models is really a killer cost... I believe the SRX100 will still let you have multiple WAN interfaces, but if you want them to be other than ethernet you would have to step up to the 210 which has an expansion slot for all maner of interfaces.

And speaking as someone that really doesn't know crap about networking, they are pretty simple to set up given that I managed to do it for my home network with nothing more than the Junos forum and a couple of O'reilly books (which really turned out to be unneeded).

Re:Business opportunity (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38529414)

There are people spending money on switches with less than 100% gig interfaces? If you're still running a network on fast ethernet you might not be able to afford even a sub-$1000 switch

Re:Business opportunity (3, Informative)

klapaucjusz (1167407) | more than 2 years ago | (#38529374)

Where is all the fucking Enterprise hardware and firmware updates to support it?.

Most large companies have been requiring IPv6-capable gear for the last 4 years or so, while the DoD mandages IPv6 support since 2005.

Because of that, most recent hardware and software is IPv6-capable. Cisco IOS, for example, has been doing IPv6 since 2001. Microsoft servers have been able to work over IPv6 since Server 2003. Mac OS X since 10.4, Linux since the 2.4 series.

If you're still stuck with IPv4-only hardware or software, it's your fault.

--jch

Re:Business opportunity (1)

smpoole7 (1467717) | more than 2 years ago | (#38529466)

> If you're still stuck with IPv4-only hardware or software, it's your fault.

See my next post. Some of us have networks that are composed of far more than just computers, switches and routers, dood. :)

Re:Business opportunity (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38529822)

Amen to that. We have equipment on the shop floor that is several years old. One of these machines is a laser that cuts huge sheets of material into parts. We have no way to upgrade the embedded hardware, and we can't just 'toss this machine out and buy new' (it's a 175k machine). We have 15 other machines just like that one.

That's not including the Quality Control computers used for measuring the parts ... which are 15 years old.....newer versions of Windows don't support the software that run on these computers.....

Man, I wish people would actually step out into the world.....

Re:Business opportunity (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38529556)

There's nothing preventing business from dual stacking.

There's no equipment today that supports V6 ONLY. (feel free to prove me wrong there.) The simple solution is to maintain two networks, one IPv4 for legacy devices or anything that doesn't really need to speak with the outside world. Enforce a policy that all new hardware acquisitions need to support V6 or both, and moving forward you'll simplify to 100% V6.

V6 LAN/WAN maintenance for 5000+ device networks is simple, if the network was well designed.

And I'm sorry, I'm a little biased on "Where is all the fucking Enterprise hardware and firmware updates to support it?" Cisco has had extremely good v6 support dating back to 2007. I admit, even today: there's a few v4 features that I miss working with full v6 customers, but it's nothing you can't work around.

If the price of Cisco equipment is too much for your company blood (Being a Canadian, I know the price can be a deterring factor in many small-medium businesses) Software routers with multi-port NIC's, with a small array of 24-48 port Layer two switches will do wonderfully.

As a simple "inexpensive" enterprise solution, For a 400 seat building, a pair of loaded 6513's will provide two - layer three one-gig ports at each station, and allow you to maintain more redundant 1/10G WAN/LAN links then you'll need for years to come. Oh, and they'll do it in V4 AND V6 simultaneously.

Re:Business opportunity (1)

trejrco (1622379) | more than 2 years ago | (#38529592)

Part of the goal of dual-stacking is to enable IPv6 where you can. Noone says you "MUST HAVE 100% IPv6-only EVERYWHERE". Your printers, for example, can stay IPv4-only ... everything else (which probably already supports IPv6, BTW) can move to IPv4+IPv6 in a planned fashion. The benefit: you are ready before you need to be, and don't need a firedrill style deployment down the road. Oh, and it really can be fairly straight-forward :).

Re:Business opportunity (1)

GPLHost-Thomas (1330431) | more than 2 years ago | (#38529684)

I got clients that still have 5 years or more to go on lease contracts for huge printer and document systems. No IPv6 firmware updates in the pipeline that I know about.

We never asked that these migrate to IPv6. They are fine with v4.

Re:Business opportunity (1)

smpoole7 (1467717) | more than 2 years ago | (#38529140)

> make some big bucks ...

Yes ... and no. It depends. Maybe. No way to predict it reliably for each geographic location. Frankly, for better or for worse (and just for the record, I think IPv6 rocks; I like it) ... that's not likely to happen for the vast majority of small-to-medium-sized private networks. Not if they're working fine now. You might can make a little money helping people go IPv6 on the Internet, but that's about it.

Our facilities are a case in point. We have so much IPv4 stuff, including licensed microwave links that have never heard of IPv6, that we're just not in a hurry. Our 12 broadcast studios use an audio-over-IP system that's IPv4 (with no way to upgrade). All of my remote controls systems, transmitters, satellite receivers and other equipment are IPv4. We need to get a return on that substantial investment before we can even think about replacing it.

We could do a mixed IPv4/IPv6 network, but why bother? It works, don't fix it. We will buy IPv6-ready equipment whenever possible, but here's the real rub: there ain't a lot of it available, not for what we need. (I've been looking for 2 years, since I first heard about IPv6. If you go to a typical equipment manufacturer's Website and search for "IPv6," you won't even get a HIT. "No results found.").

I'm going to ensure we can still do that Internet-thingie (which means that we'll need some IPv6 work there, including IPv6 static IPs and DNS "AAAA" records), but our in-house network is fine the way it is.

I doubt very seriously that I'm the only one saying this, either. Consultants who expect to become wealthy in the next two years helping people with their "IPv6 Migration Strategies" are going to be disappointed. That's my prediction. :)

Re:Business opportunity (1)

helix2301 (1105613) | more than 2 years ago | (#38529622)

If you want make money start buying as many IPv4 addresses as you can now and hold on to them. In a few years you can sell them to people that are going to need them and make a small fortune my dad always tough me "Supply and Demand."

Cleanup the IP Space (1)

na1led (1030470) | more than 2 years ago | (#38528476)

There are so much junk IP addresses out there going nowhere, probably enough to keep us going for the next 10 years. If your site has been down for more than a year, time to forfeit that IP.

Re:Cleanup the IP Space (3, Interesting)

SJHillman (1966756) | more than 2 years ago | (#38528506)

You assume everyone with an IP is using it to host a website. And what about people that have a redundant data link that only comes up when their main link goes down? "Well, we haven't had any downtime in the past year, guess we don't need any backups! Go ahead, take my IP!"

Re:Cleanup the IP Space (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38529600)

Almost every single US DoD endpoint (read a few hundred thousand dell workstations and laptops) is using a public IP. The DoD has reserved the same amount of IP addresses as all of the caribbean, central and south america combined, a little over 150 million. The reason we're out of IP space is that corporations and governments are using full class B networks (65536 IPs) for Jill the secretary's laptop and laser printer. A point to point network for a backup ISP is only going to use an extra /30 subnet (4 IP addresses). The IPv4 problem is much less of an ISP and internet problem and more of an incompetent/underpowered/gunshy IT department problem.

Re:Cleanup the IP Space (1)

SJHillman (1966756) | more than 2 years ago | (#38529712)

I don't deny that we have a lot of unused/misused IPs. My college had an entire 65,534 IP class B block to itself. The college has around 3,000 students (a third of which are commuters and not there every day) and maybe 1,000 professors, administrators, janitors and other staff. Even if every student, professor and janitor was given ten publicly addressable IPs, they would still have thousands left over. My point to the poster was about forfeiting IPs if they're unused for a set period of time or just because there's not a website on them, not a denial that there's a shitric ton of wasted IPs.

Re:Cleanup the IP Space (1)

tokul (682258) | more than 2 years ago | (#38528536)

There are so much junk IP addresses out there going nowhere

Couple of A blocks won't give you 10 years with the way things are expanding in Asia and Africa.

Re:Cleanup the IP Space (2)

ae1294 (1547521) | more than 2 years ago | (#38528896)

There are so much junk IP addresses out there going nowhere

Couple of A blocks won't give you 10 years with the way things are expanding in Asia and Africa.

I have an idea, why don't we separate the African Internet from our Internet. We could have two Internet's! They would be separate but equal..

Silly (4, Insightful)

HBI (604924) | more than 2 years ago | (#38528482)

Only the regional NICs have run out of blocks to distribute. No one has actually run out of IPv4 addresses. Moreover, there is a lot that still can be done to reclaim addresses. Lastly, the huge swathes of multicast and class E addresses haven't even been tapped.

This is just more attempts for the shill media to try to herd people into replacing their gear. It'll fail like the rest.

The USG was scheduled to go to IPv6 in 2006. It hasn't even begun yet.

Re:Silly (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38528598)

Well, I don't want no stupid NAT - anywhere. I can ssh to my home machine and my work machine from anywhere in the world. No NAT at work, and portforwarding at home. I'd like to ssh to every machine at home though - without paying for more addresses. I'd like to ssh into my smartphone too (so I can turn on the gps and find out where I put it.) But that isn't even offered today. IPv6 will make all of this easy. Enough addresses, nothing to pay extra for. Except the transition.

Re:Silly (1)

HBI (604924) | more than 2 years ago | (#38528736)

That would make more sense if IPv6 was easy. It isn't. It's a lot more complicated than IPv4 from a network engineering perspective and I don't see many people doing much to prepare for it in a mindshare sense. v4 was easy in comparison, but even then, it took a few years in the 90s before most private sector types were fully understanding it.

I couldn't see any significant switch even 5 years out.

Re:Silly (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38528796)

Not to mention every single business that I've ever dealt with has some sort of proprietary in-house software for one need or another. If it's a networked application then it's running on IPv4 no doubt.

NAT to IPv4 networks inside of medium-large businesses will be the status quo for a very long time.

Re:Silly (1)

am 2k (217885) | more than 2 years ago | (#38529358)

Not to mention every single business that I've ever dealt with has some sort of proprietary in-house software for one need or another. If it's a networked application then it's running on IPv4 no doubt.

All Java apps magically support IPv6 without any changes to the code (unless the program does some IP trickery itself, like storing the IP address as text in a database field that only allows 15 characters max). HTTP clients and servers all support IPv6. That should take care of a lot of custom software.

Re:Silly (3, Interesting)

jandrese (485) | more than 2 years ago | (#38529478)

In my experience the difficulty with IPv6 translation isn't at the socket layer--all of that stuff was figured out ages ago and only requires a few tweaks here and there to support both easily--the difficulty is with parsing configuration files, creating dialog boxes, etc... Lots of UI elements were spaced assuming that an IP address would only need 15 digits to be fully displayed, and IPv6 breaks that.

The upshot is that converting an application over to IPv6 is rarely as easy as it should be.

Re:Silly (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38529624)

(unless the program does some IP trickery itself, like storing the IP address as text in a database field that only allows 15 characters max).

I know where you work, because I've visually inspected the database field there that does exactly that. And yes, I /facepalmed when I saw it.

Re:Silly (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38528898)

So you're going to put everything out there without a hardware firewall? That sounds pretty stupid to me.

Re:Silly (2)

jesseck (942036) | more than 2 years ago | (#38529036)

Well, I don't want no stupid NAT - anywhere. I can ssh to my home machine and my work machine from anywhere in the world. No NAT at work, and portforwarding at home. I'd like to ssh to every machine at home though - without paying for more addresses. I'd like to ssh into my smartphone too (so I can turn on the gps and find out where I put it.) But that isn't even offered today. IPv6 will make all of this easy. Enough addresses, nothing to pay extra for. Except the transition.

I, too, would like to ssh into your machines at home and your smartphone.

Re:Silly (1)

Todd Knarr (15451) | more than 2 years ago | (#38528710)

You're right about unused IPv4 space we can reclaim from people who aren't using those blocks. But multicast and class E? Trying to use those as unicast addresses would break most of the existing IP protocol stacks.

Me, I figure the gear will need to be replaced soon. There may be a question of whether it'll be next year or the year after, but I can see the writing on the wall now. Better to get everything started now when I don't have to rush.

When you get -40F winters and you know your furnace wasn't working as well as it ought to, you get it fixed during the summer or early fall when if it needs new parts it's no big deal if they take a week to arrive. You don't wait until it's 10 o'clock at night, the first blizzard of the winter's blowing outside and it's already below zero in the house and dropping fast to find out it'll be 5 days minimum to get the new motor in from the warehouse.

Re:Silly (1)

HBI (604924) | more than 2 years ago | (#38528866)

My gear is replaced already: everything is IPv6 ready. I have a tunnel already feeding me IPv6.

That said, fixing IPv4 to last a few more years would be a single patch to the IP stacks of most systems. We could have the worst of it done in the next 3-6 months.

Re:Silly (1)

Todd Knarr (15451) | more than 2 years ago | (#38529086)

See: flag day [retrologic.com] . Best avoided. You can't make the change simultaneously on every single computer connected to the Internet, and if you don't you're going to have random breakages from the point where you start until the point where the last computer's been patched. I'd rather not have frequent and unpredictable failures of the global Internet for 3-6 months.

Re:Silly (1)

jandrese (485) | more than 2 years ago | (#38529496)

For what it's worth, IPv6 world day went quite smoothly back in June. My only complaint is that they turned IPv6 back off at the end of the day instead of leaving it on and getting people started with actually fixing their broken stuff.

Re:Silly (1)

Todd Knarr (15451) | more than 2 years ago | (#38529702)

Yep. Which is going to come back and bite them the day they don't have a choice, they have to have IPv6 turned on to talk to something they need to talk to. I'd rather find and fix the broken stuff over the next 6 months to a year, instead of a year from now when having it on's causing production outages and turning it off isn't possible.

Re:Silly (1)

thue (121682) | more than 2 years ago | (#38528746)

> Only the regional NICs have run out of blocks to distribute. No one has actually run out of IPv4 addresses.

APNIC is the only NIC which has run out of IPv4 adresses, on 14 April 2011. Surely there have been an ISP somewhere in Asia since then who wanted to use an IPv4 address, but haven't been able to. That should qualify as running out.

Re:Silly (1)

pjr.cc (760528) | more than 2 years ago | (#38528778)

Only the regional NICs have run out of blocks to distribute. No one has actually run out of IPv4 addresses.

Thats actually incorrect. RIR's still have "plenty" of ip addresses to go around, its only IANA thats run out of address space to give to those RIR's.

Re:Silly (1)

delt0r (999393) | more than 2 years ago | (#38528910)

My router is 3 years old from my ISP and it fully supports IPv6. Seriously what out there doesn't?

Re:Silly (1)

jandrese (485) | more than 2 years ago | (#38529578)

Apparently Verizon still gives most FiOS customers IPv4 only routers because they're some custom conglomeration of an incredibly low end home router and in-home data-over-coax setup so they can sell you horrible movies at terrible quality and high prices on their PPV system.

Seriously Verzion, I know that PPV is supposed to be a big moneymaker for you, but why is it every time you advertise it, you're showing us movies that nobody could possibly want to watch? "Mr. Popplers Penguins, Watch this incredible blockbuster now with FiOS On Demand!" (for $6). It's a running joke in my house how bad movies they advertise on those spots are.

Re:Silly (1)

Princeofcups (150855) | more than 2 years ago | (#38529114)

This is just more attempts for the shill media to try to herd people into replacing their gear. It'll fail like the rest.

Agreed. The article should be "Almost no one is talking about IPv6." There are some places where it could be useful, such as universities and national labs, where most machines have their own IP on the internet. But most companies are ten dots behind firewalls. Hell, most home machine are 192s or 10.s behind firewalls.

I'll be getting ready now, thanks (1)

Todd Knarr (15451) | more than 2 years ago | (#38528522)

I'll be getting my network IPv6-ready now, thanks. I'll need to get a tunnel running to get connectivity, but I'll have a solid 6 months to a year to get all the bugs ironed out before I need to depend on it. That way I won't have to panic and rush if problems come up, and I won't be doing a mad scramble to get everything done as a hard deadline looms.

It's always easier and less disruptive to do something if, when something goes wrong, it can stay broken for a couple of weeks while I sort things out and it's no big deal.

Re:I'll be getting ready now, thanks (1)

rubycodez (864176) | more than 2 years ago | (#38528646)

you are being a drama queen since it's so easy, I set up ip6 tunnel for myself in three hours a year ago including the pf rules, been working flawlessly for two home servers (accessible from the internet at large), two workstations, and three laptops.

Re:I'll be getting ready now, thanks (3, Funny)

Todd Knarr (15451) | more than 2 years ago | (#38529034)

No, I'm not a drama queen. I'm a paranoid bastard who makes Mad-Eye Moody look positively naively trusting. Which is another way of saying I've been through major infrastructure deployments before. I don't believe in Murphy, I'm on a first-name basis with the little toerag.

Making an IPv6 tunnel work, that's easy. The hard part's making it not work in the spots that need to not work without breaking what's supposed to work. If everything goes smoothly it'll be a piece of cake, and if I do it now it'll probably go smoothly. But if I wait until the last minute, 99 times out of a hundred it won't go smoothly. So I'll be paranoid and get it done now and be pleasantly surprised at the lack of problems, then kick back and relax with a bowl of popcorn while Murphy visits all the people who waited and zany hijinks ensue.

Can't help but wonder... (1, Funny)

f3rret (1776822) | more than 2 years ago | (#38528568)

Why they're even bothering to do all of this, I mean didn't science prove world's gonna end by the end of 2012.

Re:Can't help but wonder... (1)

jellomizer (103300) | more than 2 years ago | (#38528702)

No it is the Evangelical Christians who are believing a Pagan calendar designed to help worship many gods. Sometimes I don't think most of these people actually read the bible.

Re:Can't help but wonder... (0)

ae1294 (1547521) | more than 2 years ago | (#38528972)

No it is the Evangelical Christians who are believing a Pagan calendar designed to help worship many gods. Sometimes I don't think most of these people actually read the bible.

Maybe they know their own religion is full of shit.

They don't know what they are talking about (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38528672)

Those guys must be stupid:

"IPv6 might allow those applications to operate in a more seamless way because of peer-to-peer capabilities built into the protocol"
What is he talking about? It appears that he never actually spent time trying to understand the protocol and that he got the quote from some marketing brochure that he downloaded.

"2012 is a great time to learn and to plan,"
YOU HAVE TO BE KIDDING ME!

"Figure out how to incorporate IPv6 into your upgrade cycles and your process update cycles"
If you didn't figure that out 3-5 years ago, then you have a lot of upgrading to do next year.

"The lack of IPv4 addresses probably won't force many enterprises or carriers into IPv6 in the next few years"
Not sure what carriers he talked to. Most of them already have IPv6 projects and real customers.

"NAT (network address translation) can bridge the gap to make IPv4 resources available to IPv6-only systems and vice versa"
Let me know what device I can install to translate from v4 to v6. I would be very interested in understanding how such device would work so I don't have to migrate my users. NAT46 is a myth...

Re:They don't know what they are talking about (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38529506)

Those guys must be stupid:

About as stupid as the median /. poster, it would seem.

"IPv6 might allow those applications to operate in a more seamless way because of peer-to-peer capabilities built into the protocol" What is he talking about?

He is talking about the fact that NAT broke the true end-to-end connectivity that IPv4 was designed for. IPv6 will return what was lost: a direct and unambiguous device address for every device.

If you didn't figure that out 3-5 years ago, then you have a lot of upgrading to do next year.

Sadly, businesses in Europe and North America can safely ignore IPv6 for the next few years.

"The lack of IPv4 addresses probably won't force many enterprises or carriers into IPv6 in the next few years"
Not sure what carriers he talked to. Most of them already have IPv6 projects and real customers.

Of course. But how many of them are unreachable by IPv4? Probably none, which means that there still is no incentive to deploy IPv6. The only businesses that might have a reason to go IPv6 are the ones running websites targeting Asia and/or mobile, and they only need IPv6 for their web-facing servers.

"NAT (network address translation) can bridge the gap to make IPv4 resources available to IPv6-only systems and vice versa" Let me know what device I can install to translate from v4 to v6.

"Translating" from 4 to 6 is quite easy, that's RFC3484. If you want to know is how you can reach IPv6-only machines from an IPv4-only device: get off your lazy arse and start deploying dual-stack (you know, the deployment phase that should have started at the turn of the century). But again, "business intelligence" says there is no reason for doing so.

Anyone remember Y2K? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38528698)

Another disaster-that-wasn't, but only because a media feeding frenzy caused how many millions (billions more likely) to be invested in last-minute-crash-priority-emergency projects to verify Y2K compliancy.

Why pay for the ounce of prevention when the pound of cure makes so much more money for the IT industry?

Bias? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38528714)

The world is running out, but that's not a problem. Only slight panic expected when Europe runs out. And USA won't run out during the next fiscal year, so no need to panic.

Do I sense some American bias here, and some lack of long-term vision? But I am repeating myself.

Profit! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38528832)

1. Buy remaining IPv4 addresses
2. wait for it...
3. Profit!!!

Arrogance. (1, Flamebait)

Jaruzel (804522) | more than 2 years ago | (#38528856)

Plus, it won't be until 2013 that North America will run out of IPv4 addresses and there's no sense getting worked up before then.

Christ. Arrogant much? last time I looked the Internet existed beyond the terrorist state known as the USA.

Re:Arrogance. (1, Insightful)

HBI (604924) | more than 2 years ago | (#38528980)

Christ. Arrogant much? last time I looked the Internet existed beyond the terrorist state known as the USA.

Your hate proves the submitter's point. You hate because the US is a hegemon. What happens outside the hegemon state is fairly irrelevant to those within.

Keep hating, it'll shorten your lifespan to no point.

Re:Arrogance. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38528982)

Plus, it won't be until 2013 that North America will run out of IPv4 addresses and there's no sense getting worked up before then.

Christ. Arrogant much? last time I looked the Internet existed beyond the terrorist state known as the USA.

Last time I looked, "North America" existed beyond the terrorist state known as the USA.

Re:Arrogance. (1)

AdamJS (2466928) | more than 2 years ago | (#38529094)

The United States is the main concern for, well, Americans, obviously.

why arent the nerds excited? (1)

pjr.cc (760528) | more than 2 years ago | (#38529192)

Yes, running out of ipv4 address space is alot of hot air, probably for another 3-5 years. In reality they could even extend that quite a bit. assuming you dont take into account china and india all getting internet-connected phones... thats a somewhat scary scenario.

But, what I dont get is why geeks arent excited about the move to ipv6... I *LOVE* ipv6, i wish my isp would get it faster.

From a purely geektechnonerd perspective, i find ipv6 interesting and hence want to use it (do use it in fact).. i think it has its flaws though, and what scares me is the lack of a "real" private address range (with nat) like we do now with ipv4. While I can understand people in the linux kernel going "nat was crap, we're not doing it in ipv6", i find that view very short sighted. Yes, ipv4 nat is a "hack" (or was originally created to facilitate a hack), but its come to be a useful one and can get you around some nasty things an isp can do to you simply by limited the number of addresses you can have (not to mention many other things it can give you)...

But, the techo in me who loves setting up networks cant wait till the next job im doing that uses ipv6, and thats coming more frequently now.

Quite honestly, if the press wants to make a big deal out of it and blow it out of proportion, im not going to stop them or even criticize them. I love doing ipv6 and if a client is thinking "maybe i should do ipv6 with my next network overhaul" I dont really care what the reasons for it are, be it a sensationalist media hype reflex or an interest in the protocol itself...

But then i get excited over most new bits of tech - be it physical or not. As in, i get about the same levels of excitement when google announce a new android phone (i.e. the nexus) as I do when a client starts asking me about how they adopt their network for ipv6.

Ok, ipv6 aint exactly new by any means, but people implementing it is another matter. The best part is until you see real (i.e. complex) networking scenarios using ipv6 you dont even some of the challanges that lay in store for you when implementing the protocol... but thats an article, not a slashdot post.

Re:why arent the nerds excited? (2)

Jeremi (14640) | more than 2 years ago | (#38529446)

what scares me is the lack of a "real" private address range (with nat) like we do now with ipv4.

Dunno what your threshold for "real" is, but Wikipedia mentions this [wikipedia.org] ... perhaps that would do.

Bologna (1, Interesting)

Karl Cocknozzle (514413) | more than 2 years ago | (#38529304)

We're not changing to IPv6 on our internal network ever. Why would we bother with a forklift changeover of the entire internal network? It's a waste of time--nothing we need to do now requires "end to end" addressing, and frankly, if it does we don't want it. All the articles I've read seem to come down to "it's more convenient" for applications not to have to deal with NAT... Of course it is also more convenient for people who mean to do you harm, too, since we're back to connections to outside resources coming from the machine's actual IP address, a public NATing of the private one.

Once again, we're back to "convenience" vs. "can a competent admin secure it in a reasonable length of time or with a reasonable budget?"

Re:Bologna (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38529914)

Well if you don't want to connect to other peers why do you need an internet connection anyway? Attackers can't get into your network if there is no connection to the outside world! Simple!

It's not YOUR addresses ... (3, Insightful)

garry_g (106621) | more than 2 years ago | (#38529584)

... what you don't seem to get is that the problem is not when ARIN runs out, but when your business partners get IPv6 addresses you can't reach because you didn't do your f@ckin' homework and upgrade to dual-stacked ... So go ahead, stick to IPv4, and once your boss comes in and asks why you can't exchange data with your possibly largest customer, tell him: "why would we want IPv4? Arin hasn't run out yet" ... good luck on finding a new job afterwards ...
And if you believe "Hey, no problem, it's just the Chinese and Japanese and Australians, who needs them" - think again, Europe's RIPE will run out of IPv4 addresses next ...

Who Cares (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38529638)

I don't anymore

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