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Juno And Privacy

michael posted more than 13 years ago | from the water-and-oil dept.

Privacy 198

Karl Weiss writes: "Section 2.5 of the Juno Privacy Policy has some very interesting statements in it - you authorize them to download an app to track your usage and you can't do anything about it, you are to keep your computer on 24/7, or give them the right to make your computer call out at their desire, and they can install a screen saver on your computer with ads, and you can't get rid of it. Obviously this bothers me, but the real kicker as far as I'm concerned is that they will allow third parties to use the downloaded software. Does M$ looking for pirated software sound like a player? Or what happens if someone cracks the software? Does that open your hard drive data to anyone? As the senior network instructor at a large private computer school, I have advised faculity and staff to not use Juno due to these requirments." It looks like the few remaining free ISPs are searching for ways to make up advertising income during the dot-com meltdown, and the "solution" they've come up with is to make use of their users' computers to do distributed processing. Will Juno users realize what they are agreeing to?

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creative (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 13 years ago | (#462305)

"Does M$ looking for pirated software" M$? Sure, Slashdot can be taken serious.

SETI@home for the Stupid? (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 13 years ago | (#462306)

LOL.

Distrubuted.Net for Dummies. SETI@home for the Stupid. Process Tree for Poseurs.

Annoying, Pedantic, Asshole.
There is no contradiction

This Post Was Brought To You By Kiss The Troll

Re:Screw you guys; (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 13 years ago | (#462308)

> And oh yeah, this time I won't make the mistake of installing linux on it!!

So you'll install FreeBSD ?

Re:Global email? (1)

G-Force (18184) | more than 13 years ago | (#462315)

This brings up a good point.. Is there possibly a good time for "spam"? I think so. In this case, I would look at a mass email to *.juno would kind of be like spam civil disobedience.

Re:What's REALLY BAD is... (1)

weaver (22514) | more than 13 years ago | (#462317)

I don't intend to allow my children to keep a computer in their room. At this stage of the game, it is too dangerous. In the family room only, please, allowing overt monitoring of their activites online. Games et al will be handled with headphones, should the noise level get too high.

I darn sure don't want to get a call from the FBI because my son has tried to be 733t hax0r.

I guess the old TANSTAAFL, my personal motto for years, still holds.

Mike
The old curmudgeon

Re:What's REALLY BAD is... (1)

weaver (22514) | more than 13 years ago | (#462318)

Hey,

I said I was old, didn't I? That meens I don't know how to do leet speek.

Bah.

Mike

Re:a paradox (1)

vulcan (30164) | more than 13 years ago | (#462322)

ianal, but i do know a bit about US contract law, and this particular clause would be found if you went to court. you cannot agree to a contract when you are not aware of the terms.

Re:Global email? (1)

smillie (30605) | more than 13 years ago | (#462323)

We need to spam them for their own good. We should also spam them with a make money at home email so they can afford a real ISP....

Re:Prior art!? (1)

Rufty (37223) | more than 13 years ago | (#462324)

At work we've just got mandatory setup for NT, desktop, screensaver colours, everything. This kinda messed with the guys doing spectrogram processing, 'coz the OpenGL, unturn-offable, screensaver sucks the cycles. Solution? Get an old mouse, glue the ball to a magnetic flea stirrer and leave it clamped in a stand over the revolving magnetic base; an always-moving mouse and the screensaver doesn't turn on! Just don't try this energy-friendly trick in California...

Re:Let your feet do the walking ... (1)

jazman_777 (44742) | more than 13 years ago | (#462325)

>There ought to be a law!! Get the FCC or someone to rule that ANY ISP must support ANY operating system, AND at the SAME price. (The one I use now has a much lower priced version than what I'm paying, but it's another damn Windoze-only ad-based version!)
>

So you say they ought to provide something for nothing, by law, eh?

Yeah, and they ought to pass a law that everyone should do 10+ hours of volunteer work at a local charity. Think of the good _that_ would do!

Re:Let your feet do the walking ... (1)

grytpype (53367) | more than 13 years ago | (#462329)

Better yet.. sign it, and then violate the hell out of the motherfscker. Remove the screensaver. Turn your PC off if you want to. Whatever. Nothing bad will happen to you.

Re:Let your feet do the walking ... (1)

AppyPappy (64817) | more than 13 years ago | (#462330)

This gives idiots a chance to use the Internet. Not necessarily a good thing but they generally just go to web-based chatrooms and play with the emoticons anyway. I doubt a person using Juno could figure out how to pirate software.

Wha? (1)

dave-fu (86011) | more than 13 years ago | (#462336)

I've got my P/100 (with a whopping 16 MB of RAM) running Win95, and a 5 node Syncrhonet BBS [synchro.net] .
It'll stay up for weeks at a time (power outages aside). Plus I play NetHack on it. I've even used Word now and then because my newer box still doesn't have a perfectly legitimate backup copy installed onto it yet.
I'm still wondering how I haven't killed that box yet.

Big deal... (1)

JoeShmoe (90109) | more than 13 years ago | (#462338)

All you have to do is run one of the countless "mouse-wiggling key-typing" simulator programs that were used to defeat anti-idle mechanisms in AllAdvantage and then you're once again home free.

No idle = no screensaver = no cycles for Juno

Right?

- JoeShmoe

Re:Where are the free (as in speech) ISPs? (1)

ewieling (90662) | more than 13 years ago | (#462339)

With Telocity DSL you are connected 24/7 (duh!), get a static IP address, are able to run "personal" servers, and in BellSouth areas is about $50/month. Of course, if you abuse the service, I suspect they'll yank your service. For an extra $10/month they will give you extra IP's and some silly firewall service too. They are not perfect (they had some really horrible problems about a month ago), but they are not too bad.

Re:Big deal... (1)

erlenic (95003) | more than 13 years ago | (#462341)

I would think that they thought of that, but you never know.

Wouldn't the DMCA also prevent this, making it illegal to install a program on your computer that moves the mouse. When will the insanity end?

Re:Oh my (1)

drnomad (99183) | more than 13 years ago | (#462343)

Feels like somebody else is owning your computer. I can pay something like $2000 for a PC with Windows and software here in Europe - that's a medium luxerious system - and somebody else is acting like they own it? If people succeed to read this policy and succeed to understand it, I don't think Juno has much future...

slightly OT anecdote (1)

Ravagin (100668) | more than 13 years ago | (#462345)

That reminds me....
So I've got an old Pentium 120 sitting in my bedroom. I use it mostly for word processing. Since it obvioulsy takes forever to boot, I like to keep it on (in standby mode) as much as possible. My experiment was to leave it running for several days, running two things: Word and NetHack. I wasn't even playing the NetHack much. Mostly, the thing just sat there in standby. I woke it up the other day to use it, and Word started randomly crashing on me. Just... freezing up and having to be terminated through "Close Program."
I'm really considering Linux for that machine....

-J

There's a very simple solution (1)

greggman (102198) | more than 13 years ago | (#462348)

If you don't like their terms. Don't use there service. End of story.

good and bad (and just plain ugly) (1)

resonance (106398) | more than 13 years ago | (#462349)

Well, on one hand, I don't like the idea of Juno sortof 'sneaking' this up on users. Yeah yeah, they put it in the EULA, but who the fuck reads those anyhow? (if you haven't read one, I suggest you do, just any one, it's wacked) But on the other hand, it's nice to see all this unused CPU time going to do SOMETHING. I don't like, on principle, idling computer hardware of any kind. It's a massively wasted resource, and things like what Juno is doing that will 'sneak' it onto the computers of the uninitiated masses who don't know that distributed.net exists will help to exploit that resource.

Re:vice president in charge (1)

perky (106880) | more than 13 years ago | (#462350)

Oh, wait. Could it be instead that he has experience of running very large computer installations instead.

I'm appaled (1)

sh4na (107124) | more than 13 years ago | (#462352)

Now this is really something! My jaw absolutely dropped as I was reading that piece of lawyerise crap!

So a person has to have the computer on 24/7, pay for any technical problems that might arise from this (and we all know how Windoze keeps getting better the more time it's working...), pay for telephone connections Juno makes, can't switch to any other OS, can't even *use* anything else!...

They have really got to be joking. It would be easier if they just said "well, for you to subscribe you have to leave your computer with us, see. You'll pay for everything it does, phone calls, electricity and the works, but we won't buy it from you. You have to *pay* for us to take it from your hands."

*gasp*

I'd love to see this one in court! They're crazy if they think they can get away with something like that! Hey, Juno, not everything that's written down is permissible, see!

Re:don't think so. (1)

Travoltus (110240) | more than 13 years ago | (#462353)

What ya shoulda said is:
"How long until some script kiddiez breaks all security and causes havoc and goes all willy nilly all over the internet?"
(Can anyone guess which free dialup company's ad that this was ripped off of? heheh.)

========================
63,000 bugs in the code, 63,000 bugs,
ya get 1 whacked with a service pack,

Another reason I'm glad for my Mac/LinuxPPC (1)

galego (110613) | more than 13 years ago | (#462354)

Support on these FreeISP's was/is very slow to get to Macs. And now I'm especially broken up about it too. And of course...freeISP for Linux? So...I'm happy the only two things I allow to boot in my home won't get the data sucked out of them. Just my linux boot I gotta worry about getting hacked. But that's a moving target still...

I'd rather pay $40-$50 for DSL anyway. You get what you pay for...or they get your info. if you don't pay for it.

My concern now though is for my relatives who use Juno. I'm going to point this out to them give them by HO on the matter. Thanks for the pointer. Guess it's time to start reading these agreements again more carefully. Did it in the past, started clicking willy nilly again...

But let's hear it for those who only have to deal with WinDOS/2 at work!

Cheers

Galego

Re:The Plain Englidh Version (1)

Dracophile (140936) | more than 13 years ago | (#462366)

And, yes, I do see the irony in mis-spelling the Subject text. :(
--

Your bigger question... (1)

clary (141424) | more than 13 years ago | (#462369)

I think the bigger question instead of "Do Juno users realize what they are agreeing to" is "Is this ethical? And more importantly, is this right?"
My first reaction would be that users realizing what they are agreeing to is central to whether the service agreement is ethical. You have to make a very strong ethical argument to forbid fully informed, adult individuals from agreeing to anything they damn well please. However, one cannot truly agree to something without understanding it. So enforcing an agreement on such a person is not ethical, and borders on fraud.

Offtopic, a bit: Your comment implies a difference between something being "ethical" and beign "right." Could you explain what you mean?

This section isn't so bad...make a sandwich! (1)

clary (141424) | more than 13 years ago | (#462370)

2.4. You agree to eat spam.
Mmm...tasty pork shoulder and ham...

Re:It's 5:22AM... (1)

31: (144084) | more than 13 years ago | (#462373)

good old /. ... in a story about privacy, a comment about privacy in off-topic... good job, moderators!

---
I'm not ashamed. It's the computer age, nerds are in.
They're still in, aren't they?

Re:There's a very simple solution (1)

nothng (147342) | more than 13 years ago | (#462375)

That's great in this circumstance, I won't. But where does this stop? What happens when you have no choice but to sign this type of agreement for a service like power or water or phone where you only have one provider. Sure I'd move, but I shouldn't have to. We have to be careful not to let things like this go to far, what's to stop it later? Sound far fetched? 15 years ago this would have also...

Re:Ethical and Moral obligations (1)

Helix150 (177049) | more than 13 years ago | (#462389)

yup, they're dead. or at least 6 feet under and digging themselves out with a plastic spork. THey're probably gonna say something about 'yeah but we never actually did that' or 'yeah we dont know how it got into final release, we did that in beta and people hated it',

Re:Screw you guys; (1)

tang (179356) | more than 13 years ago | (#462390)

well,now we know what is wrong with you.

Re:Prior art!? (1)

rocur (183707) | more than 13 years ago | (#462391)

I'm sure there are more but here [shoppersplazausa.com] is one source.

Why is this an issue? (1)

citylife (202595) | more than 13 years ago | (#462398)

a> This is clearly posted in their privacy policy and terms of service. People are smart enough to read and understand TOS's, if they choose not to then they shouldn't act surprised when revelations like this occur.

b> Using Juno is a choice. If you don't like their choices, DON'T use them.

c> Juno is without an explicit cost, but nothing in life is free.

Ideal, except... (1)

PhilMills (209855) | more than 13 years ago | (#462402)

...that they expressly reserve the right to terminate your dad's service if he's not giving them enough cycles/callouts/on-time:

"...and that any interference with the operation of the Computational Software (including, but not limited to, any failure to leave your computer turned on at all times) may result in termination or limitation of your use of the Service." (from the bottom of section 2.5)

That sort of puts the kibosh on your dad's current computer-use lifestyle, if I read legalese correctly.

-phil

Sigs aren't worth the paper they aren't printed on.

Re:Oh my (1)

Kierthos (225954) | more than 13 years ago | (#462407)

*nod* I don't much like Windows, even though I currently use it (hey, find me a distro of Linux that will run Pirates Gold! and it's off my box so fast...), and any kind of ISP agreement that requires you to have possible the worst OS on the market is one that is doomed to kill the ISP. I mean AOL, as an ISP blows goats, but at least you can run it on something other then Windows...

Oh well... bets on how long it is before Juno renounces this policy (or if they don't, how long it is before Juno goes under)?

Kierthos

Re:Let your feet do the walking ... (1)

sandman935 (228586) | more than 13 years ago | (#462409)

A law forcing any ISP to support any operating system? Now, THAT is at least as scary as the crap Juno is pushing. It will do nothing but force many businesses out and leave us with a government imposed standard of what makes an operating system an operating system.

Face it, from a marketing standpoint, there's not enough bang for the buck targeting Linux or Mac. To troll effectively, you need a wide net and Windows is the biggest catch of all.

Bottom Line: If you ain't using Windoze, expect to pay FULL PRICE for your ISP.

IMHO, these free ISP target casual users that lack the savvy to realize what they are giving away in exchange for that free connection. By definition, Linux users are advanced. Were I a marketer, I'd want nothing to do with you. There are easier sheep to fleece.

Re:There's a very simple solution (1)

sandman935 (228586) | more than 13 years ago | (#462410)

That's a stretch. If there were three ISPs in the country, there might be cause for concern but ISPs are as common as water.

These are the final throes of a dying company that has rudely awakened to the fact that their business model is a failure.

Re:I'm appaled (1)

sandman935 (228586) | more than 13 years ago | (#462411)

Why would it not stand up in court? If you don't agree to the terms, get another ISP...

Hell... if you want free access, there are other options... for example, BlueLight [bluelight.com] is offered by K-Mart (Where the "K" stands for Kwality).

Re:Let your feet do the walking ... (1)

sandman935 (228586) | more than 13 years ago | (#462412)

Exactly! Juno is not the only free ISP. There are more [all-free-isp.com] .

Do you hear that sucking sound? That's Juno.

Re:No (1)

wapcaplet (231540) | more than 13 years ago | (#462414)

There's another type, which is (like me) people too poor to afford a real ISP and, since Juno is about the only free one that hasn't either (a) started not being free, (b) gone out of business, or (c) been bought by Juno, must put up with the crap in order to get online once in a while. None of the icky-sounding stuff like making me keep my computer on all the time, or the evil screen-saver which automatically connects to Juno at its discretion, really applies to me since I have an older installation of it which, every time a "Juno Upgrade" is downloaded (automatically), Juno tries to patch itself to the newer version (which probably includes all that icky stuff) and fails. Though, I can only connect for a few minutes a day, if I'm lucky. But hey, it's free :)

There's an EASY way around this. (1)

los furtive (232491) | more than 13 years ago | (#462415)

Download RASSPY [rasspy.gq.nu] and install it on any Winbox, then follow the instructions and connect to your Free ISP, a pop-up will appear with your:

  1. login
  2. password
  3. dial-out number

Then just create a DUN (or use it on your Linux laptop like I did) and you'll never have to use their software again or worry about them doing fsked up sh*t on you box besides monitoring your usage.

Enjoy!

Re:Let your feet do the walking ... (1)

xjimhb (234034) | more than 13 years ago | (#462416)

It's not a question of whether I want to pay for an ISP or not (of course I'd rather get it for free, who wouldn't?), it's simply another facet of the Micro$quish Monopoly!

Having to pay for an ISP when you use Linux, while the Windoze guy can get one for free is just like the "Micro$quish Tax" you have to pay for a new computer that comes with a copy of Windoze you are never going to use (and can't sell because it's locked to that machine).

The DOJ has been suing Micro$quish on anti-trust issues (although things don't look too good with Ashcroft being confirmed) in order to level the playing field and reduce M$'s competitive advantage - what I'm suggesting is along the same lines. Force ISP's to EITHER use a plain simple PPP interface that any OS can use (does an Acorn even have TCP/IP, I dunno?), OR, if they insist on a proprietary interface, provide it for ALL operating systems (OK, maybe limit it to a reasonable set - Windoze, Linux, *BSD, BeOS, Mac - that have a noticeable market share).

If Joe Blow can get a free ISP, I should be able to also, and if I have to pay, Joe Blow should have to pay, regardless of which OS either of us are using.

Re:Let your feet do the walking ... (1)

xjimhb (234034) | more than 13 years ago | (#462417)

Yeah, right, lots of them. NOT!!!! Windoze, Windoze, Windoze, and a few with Mac support. Not a God Damn one of them in my area has support for Linux! I had one (Freewwweb) once, but they went bankrupt and sold out to Windoze-only Juno. There have been rumors for well over a year of Netzero adding Linux support (not that Netzero is all that great, I've used them on Windoze, but free is free!) but absolutely nothing seems to be really happening.

There ought to be a law!! Get the FCC or someone to rule that ANY ISP must support ANY operating system, AND at the SAME price. (The one I use now has a much lower priced version than what I'm paying, but it's another damn Windoze-only ad-based version!)

Bottom Line: If you ain't using Windoze, expect to pay FULL PRICE for your ISP.

Re:Big deal... (1)

linuxpimp (236963) | more than 13 years ago | (#462419)

Or get that bobbing head bird to hit the keyboard like Homer Simpson did.

in-box software EULAs (1)

linuxpimp (236963) | more than 13 years ago | (#462420)

I would like to consider software End User Licensing Agreements for a moment. A common criticism of EULAs is that they are included inside the box or in a screen during the install, giving no notice to the consumer that they must enter a contract in order to use it. As a result, the market exchange of money for a good is complete, and any new rights and restrictions cannot be added to the purchase. I'm not sure how far this argument gets in court, but some smart people (tm) seem to think it has merit.

Now in this Juno example, the list of policies (which can change at any time) is on their web page, and by using their service to get online to view this page you are subjecting yourself to any changes that have taken place. When you first use the service, this is legally dubious. However, this seems a bit more complex than the EULA example in that software is a one-time purchase while Juno offers a continuing contract for a service. However, there must be clearly defined boundaries on the contract's duration, and it must be "billed" so a person is (a)informed of the new conditions before s/he continues using the service, and (b)is not subject to the contract conditions once s/he opts out.

Of course I could be wrong on a Brobdignagian scale. Any lawyers care to comment on this?

Re:Oh my (1)

LordArathres (244483) | more than 13 years ago | (#462423)

Wow, someone FINALLY got it as a joke. A Insightful Joke, but a Joke Non The Less.

Lord Arathres

Re:contraddictions, dot-com meltdown, and so on (1)

kipple (244681) | more than 13 years ago | (#462424)

is this Intel TCPA used on a country-scale? I think no......

Re:contraddictions, dot-com meltdown, and so on (1)

Remmis (258746) | more than 13 years ago | (#462427)

I believe that this Juno accident is only the first one First one? Anybody else heard of Intel's TCPA (Trusted Computing Platform Architecture)? It exists solely to spy on how you use your PC. To report whether you are using it for "bad" purposes. Nevermind that it could do something useful like tell you if you have a virus.

Re:Oh my (1)

tekker430 (261358) | more than 13 years ago | (#462428)

AOL is *NOT* an ISP. They are an ONLINE COMMUNITY that provides internet access thru their service.

Re:Compare that. (1)

antek9 (305362) | more than 13 years ago | (#462429)

Well? As opposed to giving it to John Travolta or Keanu Reaves? LOL. And why not, anyway, there's more modes of artistical presentation than Soviet Realism. Oops...

A fool each minute... (1)

gus goose (306978) | more than 13 years ago | (#462430)

is the appropriate expression here. Yet, the world repeatedly provides examples of where this is sadly true: cult groups, chain letters, and more.

But, business is all about taking advantage of customers to some extent, and in reality, kudos to Juno. They need a lot of fools to keep their business going, and they have certainly managed to excel even with a blatantly intrusive product.

On the flip side, I would want to employ the marketers of Juno, they are able to make a tough sell.

As for their web-site, I can not display their first page www.juno.com [juno.com] , it ends somewhere in the middle of a form so my Netscape leaves the page blank.

It seems that they themselves are h4ck3rs.

Re:Compare that. (1)

ooze (307871) | more than 13 years ago | (#462432)

I believe in differences, but I don't give them any value in general.
Of course, under certain circumstances certain races have to be preferred, e.g. when you want to make a movie about Lenin, it would be stupid to give this role to Samuel L. Jackson.

Re:Compare that. (1)

ooze (307871) | more than 13 years ago | (#462433)

And Godzilla 2 is played by Marlon Brando?

Corporate disobedience? (1)

number (309649) | more than 13 years ago | (#462435)

What would happen when cracker xYz decides to send flawed responses back to the distributed computing server? "Juno would like to announce that it's distributed computing venture has isolated the cure to AIDS, 4,112,837 years faster than everyone expected.."

Re:Where are the free (as in speech) ISPs? (1)

aileon (311642) | more than 13 years ago | (#462438)

telocity provides this for me.
they are also nice, answer the phone during business hours (for cali, i'm on the east coast though) and had me up and running in 30 days.
they helped me without hassle on setting up my domain, etc. etc... and they even sent me the dsl modem and instructions and such to do it myself after I assured them that I could manage it and didn't want to pay for installation....

I'm sure someone has a problem with them, but I haven't, and after 9 months of waiting on two different companies, they are a breath of fresh air.

www.telocity.com

please don't flame as an AC. If you don't like them for some reason, speak up, I'd be interested in hearing it, this is only from my experiance, after all.

don't think so. (1)

AngelWomb--($death$) (311992) | more than 13 years ago | (#462439)

Most people don't bother reading Privacy Policies anyway, so it might come as a shock to the poor bastards that their machine is opened wide. Heck, there might even be backdoors in the usage-tracker app... How long until some script kiddiez breaks all security and causes havoc and god-knows-what?

webmail.juno.com (1)

the ugly sheep (312169) | more than 13 years ago | (#462440)

i was using juno earlier just because i had a cool email address. but ever since i reformatted my computer and put linux on my machine, i haven't reinstalled the program. do yourselves a favor, get a real isp, and if you want to keep your old email address, just use their webpage for email.

It's even worse for Californians (2)

Anonymous Coward | more than 13 years ago | (#462442)

What happens if we have a rolling blackout? Will Juno sue me for not buying my own generator?

2.5 ... You agree that, as between you and Juno, you shall be responsible for any costs or expenses resulting from the continuous operation of your computer, including without limitation any associated charges for electricity. If you are a resident of the State of California, Juno may require you to purchase and operate a power generator or other alternate energy source in order to ensure the continuous operation of your computer. Juno is not responsible for the costs associated with the operation of any power source. If you are a not a resident of California, Juno may still require you to purchase and install an Uninteruptible Power Supply (UPS). Furthermore, you must obtain written permission to reboot your computer. You agree to set your screensaver to activate after 5 seconds of inactivity. Juno may require you to disconnect your mouse and other input devices which may interfere with the operation of the screensaver (which is an integral part of the service). You must monitor your computer continuously in case the "Computational Software" locks-up or requires assistance. This assistance may require the user to perform simple math. In case of a system lock-up (crash), you must reboot your system in a timely manner (within 30 seconds). If these duties are not performed properly (as determined by Juno), you agree that Juno may -- at its own discretion -- sieze your computer and operate it in accordance with this contract at a location of Juno's choosing until the expiration of your contracted service. You agree to pay any costs associated with operating the computer during this time, including electricity and storage fees.

Ok, I went a little overboard...

Re:Dreamed up by sick venture capitalists (2)

Masem (1171) | more than 13 years ago | (#462443)

Have you looked at folding@home?

On my P600, I only got through one or two 'batches' in a day if leave it run, and this I would condiser to be an mid-to-top range system. The people that will be using Juno will most likely have low-to-mid range PCs (why else would they be using a free Juno), and I would expect one 'batch' of folding@home data would take several days to complete.

Thus, if I were Juno, all I know is that I would have to send enough 'batches' to last a month on one of these systems, and expect that the user would be calling up every week or so, as to get their results and then to put another new week of problems to be solved.

You need to remember that the way most of the distributed programs work is that they work in large, independent chucks of data; they don't have to talk to the controlling process as often as typical pallarel processing data.

Let your feet do the walking ... (2)

cah1 (5152) | more than 13 years ago | (#462444)


If you don't like it - don't sign it.

Mind you, they obviously think that they will be left with enough subscribers after all the complainants have gone to make the system viable.

It's like using e-mail at work - if you don't want someone else to control your machine, move.

At least, for these people, there is a choice. There's enough Big Brother gear out there already (or coming) that is a hell of a lot more worrying ...

If you can read this you have agreed to: (2)

gelfling (6534) | more than 13 years ago | (#462445)

We reserve the right to:

eat breakfast at your house
service or get serviced by your wife
dress up your kids in funny costumes
sell your dog
impersonate you while we rob a bank
take all your money
make you cluck like a chicken
tattoo you
shave your head, laugh at you and point
take all your money
spy on you
threaten you
prosecute you
take all your money
allow other people to spy on you
allow other people to threaten or prosecute you
make you dance naked around a fire
take all your money

If you can read this you already agreed to it.

ISP + Juno (2)

Bilbo (7015) | more than 13 years ago | (#462446)

My wife started using Juno years ago before I had an ISP that would give me multiple email addresses, and long before all the popular Web based email providers (a.k.a., yahoo and hotmail). She has continued to use it because she likes the interface, even though I now PAY FOR an always on cable account (Roadrunner). It's always been a decent service, with a reasonably good interface, and doesn't add any expense on top of the existing ISP.

However, with this change in the privacy statement, I may encourage her to move over to some other service!!!

--

Juno Rocks!!! (2)

szyzyg (7313) | more than 13 years ago | (#462447)

I must admit I aws someehwat confused - being a regular buyer from the Juno Website - It's my favourite way to get hot Vinyl from the UK....

Then I realised this was juno.com instead of juno.co.uk.

juno.com are a load of wankers

Re:Dreamed up by sick venture capitalists (2)

Splat (9175) | more than 13 years ago | (#462448)

You've obviously never ran SETI@Home or RC5. The uplink speed is irrelevant to parallel processing. It downloads large chunks of data, analyzes them offline for a while, and then uploads results. It is not a continuous up/down link.

a paradox (2)

Barbarian (9467) | more than 13 years ago | (#462451)

Please read this Service Agreement carefully. Together with the Guidelines for Acceptable Use and the Privacy Statement, it governs your use of the Internet access and other information, communication and transaction services (collectively called the "Service") provided to you by Juno Online Services, Inc. ("Juno"). This Agreement, the Guidelines and the Privacy Statement supersede all prior communications and agreements with regard to their subject matter; the current version of each may be found at Juno's Web site at http://help.juno.com/policies.


So, if you're a Juno user, you have to use the service to tell if there's a new agreement. Conversely, you basically agree to it by using the service, so you're stuck every time you decide to dial-up -- "is there a new agreement which signs all my property over? I don't know...but I'll find out!"

I hate licenses distributed in this way, changable without proper informing. You'd be a fool to sign a contract in the first place that can be superceded by an update on a webpage.

Re:slightly OT anecdote (2)

rnturn (11092) | more than 13 years ago | (#462452)

`` I've got an old Pentium 120 sitting in my bedroom ... I'm really considering Linux for that machine''

Go for it. I have two P100s that I was got for US$0 since the the school that had received them as a donation found they couldn't run Windows well enough to be useful. And, no, they weren't interested in having Linux installed. I hang my head in shame at this advocacy failure). At least I was able make use of these systems and extend the useful lifetime of the local landfill by a bit. One of them found a new lease on life as a nice little system for C programming (the wife was taking a course). The other now lives on, after the addition of a couple of oleder IDE drives, as an LPRng/Samba server that sits in the basement and allows me to print from my Linux boxen and the wife and kids to have more disk space and print from the Windows box in the spare bedroom. I wouldn't even want to consider running Windows on a machine of that vintage. But with Linux it is quite usable (though X is a bit pokey depending on what you're trying to do).


--

Laptops? (2)

Col. Klink (retired) (11632) | more than 13 years ago | (#462453)

I guess you aren't allowed to use Juno from a laptop...

Re:Oh my (2)

Zugot (17501) | more than 13 years ago | (#462455)

Who knows what Juno will be doing, they don't tell you.

Actually, if you read the article that was pointed to on Juno's site, you would realize that they are going to be using it for bioinformatics research. They even hired on a leader in the field to head up the project.

Watching the Fireworks (2)

Badgerman (19207) | more than 13 years ago | (#462456)

Let's see where this will lead:
  1. A lot of people who see and understand this agreement will go through the roof. Easier to switch providers or just put a crowbar in their wallet and pay for an ISP.
  2. Some people are going to see this, see a challenge, and find ways to do wonderfully hideous things to Juno. There's plenty of people out there with programming skills who love sticking it to companies with outrageous ideas like this.
  3. The program and the processing cycles and the screen saver are going to cause problems on any number of computers - we all remember the joys of installing something harmless that then exploded unexpectedly. Expect to loose customers and maybe even expect some lawsuits.
  4. Juno seems anxious to find all sorts of ways to kick customers off for not complying. If they follow through with these requrements - less customers.
  5. The basic idea is pretty hare-brained as it is - it sounds like desperation already. Desperation does not produce sound business models.
  6. With this news making the rounds already, expect lost customers, angry customers, and humiliation from the get-to.

End result? Another company with a death wish and no concept of how the Internet and the world work.

Goodbye Juno.

Spelling the end of free inernet access? (2)

weaver (22514) | more than 13 years ago | (#462457)

One by one, we have watched free ISP services dry up and blow away. Now we are getting onerous usage agreements. Folks, I expect that this is the death knell for the free ISP.

I wonder, though, if we will see a time where internet service becomes a commodity item like power or telephone? If so, when? What about folks like us who want full server support in our homes?

Mostly rhetorical questions, but I am curious. In my area, there are numerous options for v.90 dial-up ISPs, but only one option for fast access (@home, ugh). No DSL, no choices for ISP with the cable infrastructure.

Of course, I have used the free ISPs in the past to handle internet access when I've been travelling, as @home's dialup access is breath-takingly expensive.

I'm rambling.

See ya,
Mike

Good and Bad (2)

Hard_Code (49548) | more than 13 years ago | (#462458)

Well, if you are getting "free" Juno service (if such a thing still exists), you should really just get a decent job and kick out $15-$20 a month for a real dialup account.

On the one hand, this is an egregious violation of the consumer, but on the other hand, it does present the possibility of really harnessing the power of every computer connected to the net. I think if ISPs start programs like this, they should either be opt-in (e.g., for some discount), or have some very strict limitations, like most of the distributed computing projects.

interesting features (2)

Velox_SwiftFox (57902) | more than 13 years ago | (#462459)

I was especially impressed by the following clause which requires you to let their software make outgoing modem calls - at your expense:

If your usage of the Service is infrequent, Juno's ability to obtain the results of completed computations may be impaired. Consequently, you expressly permit and authorize Juno to initiate a telephone connection from your computer to Juno's central computers using a dial-in telephone number you have previously selected for accessing the Service; Juno agrees that it shall exercise such right only to the extent necessary, as determined in Juno's sole discretion, to upload the results of completed computations to Juno in a timely fashion; and you agree that, as between you and Juno, you shall be responsible for any costs and expenses (including without limitation any applicable telephone charges) resulting from the foregoing.

-- "The installation program has located your credit card number and is ordering other software packages you need"

Re:Big deal... (2)

John_Prophet (78703) | more than 13 years ago | (#462462)

or buy a vibrator and tape it to your mouse.
of course, this wouldn't be good for people in conservative homes, or people like me that have the computer in their bedroom. (I can deal with my 15 cooling fans, but a vibrator? woah!)


Wouldn't it be even MORE advantageous to the people who keep their computer in the bedroom? You wouldn't have to run down to the basement to get your vibrator when you were busy checking out the pr0n. Easy, instant access.


-The Reverend (I am not a Nazi nor a Troll)

Re:Oh my (2)

kootch (81702) | more than 13 years ago | (#462463)

i love how the above post is a joke and people moderated it as insightful.

it's not insightful you morons, it's sarcastic. Juno is actually quite a good service. yes, their banner ad application/browser is a pain, but hell, it's free and I get a nice 56kbps connection every time.

what happens is that when you connect to Juno, it starts up the Juno browser which includes the banner ad server/tracker in a window. You can't get this window off the screen, and to close the window, you disconnect yourself. Darn. But the window does not track any usage outside of the Juno browser. So you can be connected through Juno, but using Nutscrape, and it's not tracking where you go. Hell, this is really no different than AllAdvantage, 'cept instead of being paid $20/month, you're getting a free ISP ($20/month value)

What's the difference? And part of the contract requires the application to make connections to the internet and install software... the software it's installing is new banner ads and updates to the browser.

Hell, rant on me because I'm supporting Juno. But it's a good service, they've always looked out for their customers by giving them free service, or a fairly inexpensive alternative, and the quality as well as the customer service is deserving of the money you pay (unlike many other ISP's)

Dreamed up by sick venture capitalists (2)

cperciva (102828) | more than 13 years ago | (#462468)

This isn't going to work. Distributed computing over 56K dialup modems is simply commercially infeasible.

Why? Because an embarassingly parallel commercially interesting problem is an oxymoron. The interesting problems are ones which require inter-node communication of at very least tens of MB/day.

Computer scientists have known this for decades. That's why linpack [top500.org] is used as a supercomputing benchmark, while RC5 is not.

The interesting problems are the hard ones, the ones which aren't embarassingly parallel. The ones which can't run off of a 56K dialup modem.

Free DSL services will be even worse (2)

Travoltus (110240) | more than 13 years ago | (#462469)

Cross Juno with any Free DSL service and you get a privacy invasion racket that will have all the bandwidth they need to send them all the data they want concerning you, without your average user ever really noticing it.

If enough clueless users sign up, and these free DSL services can survive on selling personal data, this could knock a lot of other for-pay DSL services out of business. You can then view a microcosm of hell itself when certain cities are only serviced by Juno-like free DSL providers, and the only way some people can get online, is through these people.

The 2 big barriers, of course, are
1) consumer awareness of the dangers of a Juno-like service (which is actually pretty high);
2) the danger that the free DSL/dialup services will collapse because they cannot meet operating costs with the income they're getting from advertising / personal information trafficking.

The advantage the Juno type provider has, of course, is that they are free. They can also make deals with e-tailers (like Amazon) to get their customers lower prices, etc.

Suddenly, all that Biblical talk about the mark of the beast, is starting to make sense...
========================
63,000 bugs in the code, 63,000 bugs,
ya get 1 whacked with a service pack,

this is enlightening (2)

RestiffBard (110729) | more than 13 years ago | (#462470)

presently my dad uses juno to do his email. that and solitaire is all the computer ever gets used for. you know i don't know whether to care or not. if they want the few random processor cycles from a 300Mhz pc that is mostly off and doesn't have a dedicated phone line they are welcome to them. So long as i don't have to constantly show my dad how to send his email. I mean have you used Juno. Its KISS. (keep it simple stupid) My dad needs that. I need him to have it. I'm thinking Emacs is a bit beyond him.

Re:Big deal... (2)

evil_one (142582) | more than 13 years ago | (#462472)

or buy a vibrator and tape it to your mouse. That would work too, and would defeat any "use of software to decry juno of revenue... blah blah..." arguements.
of course, this wouldn't be good for people in conservative homes, or people like me that have the computer in their bedroom. (I can deal with my 15 cooling fans, but a vibrator? woah!)
---

What's REALLY BAD is... (2)

nothng (147342) | more than 13 years ago | (#462473)

"2.1. You agree to provide Juno with accurate, current and complete information, to the extent required by Juno for your registration as a subscriber of the Service or at any time thereafter, and to maintain and to update this information as required to keep it accurate, current and complete. You agree in your enrollment and in your use of the Service not to impersonate any other person or entity, and you represent that you are 13 years of age or older."

You only have to be 13 years old!!! It's bad enough to exploit people in general, but now they are going to exploit children. And I thought saturday morning cartoons were bad about commercials.

Now the extra computer in your kids room will have a trojan virus (juno) on it transmitting every site your kid goes to back to juno. Then of course they can have it dial out to them. It's sad, I remember when we didn't have to read license agreements they were.... wait, no i don't nevermind, they have always sucked. It's just really bad, because the average computer user doesn't realize "big" companies do these sorts of things and probably never read the agreements.

And of course we can't forget what a security risk juno could possibly be, but I guess it's only a smudge in light of the OS it runs on ;)

Global email? (2)

cyber-vandal (148830) | more than 13 years ago | (#462474)

Would there be any way to send emails to all Juno users, bringing this clause to their attention? This is an extremely scummy piece of legalese and should be shot down before others think they can get away with it.

Patent & SETI online (2)

maastrictian (157848) | more than 13 years ago | (#462475)

From Juno's website: "The Juno Virtual Supercomputer Project will make use of patented technology Juno currently employs in connection with its display of advertising to download computational tasks to subscribers' computers for processing offline during time when such subscribers are not using their computers. The results of such offline computations will then be uploaded to Juno's central computers during a subsequent connection, in much the same way that Juno currently collects responses to the advertisements it shows offline. Applications will run as "screen savers" on the computers of participating subscribers when their machines would otherwise be idle, performing calculations when the computer is on but not in use. " Does this sound to anyone else like they are trying to patent SETI online's technology? Distributed computing using a screensaver to capture idle cycles. --Chris

vice president in charge (2)

revin (191651) | more than 13 years ago | (#462478)

What really strikes is that Juno has brought in Yuri Rozenman, formerly of Applied Biosystems and with 13 years of experience in the bioinformatics field, to head up the project as vice president in charge of the Virtual Supercomputer Network. (source: here [internetnews.com] ). The link between Applied Biosystems [appliedbiosystems.com] and informatics is the automation and analasys of genetical sequences
- this gives me the creeps - can you imagine ... collecting data on all those people

Re:Oh my (2)

fantom_winter (194762) | more than 13 years ago | (#462479)

I just read the whole policy and wow, they just keep on getting better.

Yes, they do. After all, could it be that they are taking a cue from open source projects like distributed.net and using it to maybe make some money? What criminals! How dare they run a business!

1. They can download stuff to your computer and make it do work. 2. It works like a screen saver and you are not ALLOWED to disable it. You also cannot un-install Windows or they will simply kill you.

Yep, they will kill you. Seriously, what is so bad about letting a company use your clock cycles for goods / services? Hell, enough people do it for free. Maybe Juno should try cracking RC-5 and you would be less angry at them.

3. They can make your computer call their servers to upload results and any other thing they find on your computer, because you wont know. 4. They may require you to keep your computer on 24 hours a day, and oh by the way are NOT responsible for the electricity it consumes. Why should they be, you're stupid not to have read the policy in the first place.

Whether they reserve the right to upload anything on your computer to their servers or not, do you think it might be possible that they are uploading the results they are paying you to compute? Yes, paying you in the form of a PPP connection.

5. They are not responsible for any damages caused by your computer working on a problem while you are not on it. This will probably include very intensive Mathematical Calculations that I know a overclocked processor will just love.

Oh, come on. This is just whining now. Do you really, honestly, and truly believe that your computer is going to melt because its calculating sin 34 to 5943 decimal places instead of rendering images of toasted demons all over your monitor? A clause like this is pretty common in all software, even back in the shareware days when programmers would abdicate themselves from responsibility of what their program unintentially did. As a user, it is usually worth taking the risk. Businesses that like to crash people's computers don't generally make money (with the exception of MS)

6. They can send someone to your house to turn your computer on if you leave it off. Why not. It

Yeah. I want that job.

7. They can all laugh at you for actually agreeing to this. Then having Jim win the office pool becasue he guessed right on the amount of people that never will read the agreement anyway.

Are you going to blame Juno for their users not reading the contract? You have to be pretty lame to think that there isn't a price to pay for a service like Juno. I used a free ISP service for a bit. I had no illusions about the rights I was having taken away from me for it. Look, most people don't give a rat crap if someone is looking through their garbage or the last 5 internet sites they visited. Its useless information to them.

Yes, companies like this are sorta gay. I think its rather dumb too, and the business model is likely to fail. I agree there. I even agree that people should be more mindful of what they agree to when they click through things on their computer. Totally true. And companies shouldn't try to hide their agreements, but make them upfront. A click through licence is pretty up front. It takes like 1 minute to scan through one of those things and look for nasty buggers. People who don't do it are ignorant or lazy (or both).

My point is, that Juno shouldn't be flamed for offering a service like this. They aren't violating anyone's rights. Instead, people should be educated about what they can get into with these free services, and should be mindful of what they are giving up, and if they are willing to do so. I think that the power of data mining w/ targeted advertising, etc is underestimated by the general public. That's because it is new. People will eventually see that those of us who guard our privacy do so not because we are paranoid, but because we don't want to be subject to the immense power of targeted mass-advertising. It is annoying, and sometimes it is downright uncomfortable. But as long as they don't realize it, companies like Juno will still be around, and will continue to have the right to run their business as they see fit.

Too simple (2)

billcopc (196330) | more than 13 years ago | (#462481)

Obviously they plan on generating their revenue by winning every cracking compo on distributed.net by using every Juno user's pc for their own team.

Re:Oh my (2)

Kierthos (225954) | more than 13 years ago | (#462482)

Jesus Christ on a crutch... AOL actually looks good compared to this!

Hey, wait a sec... if you're a Juno user in Texas, and someone shows up to turn your computer back on, if you tell them to get off your property and they don't, you can shoot them...

Also, if they enter your house (or apartment) while no one is there, you can probably hit them with illegal entry. They might be allowed access to your computer, but I'm damn sure that you have to be present at the time. Otherwise who knows what else they may have done while in your place.

Kierthos

Juno is grabbing for last straws.. Game Over.. (2)

rigor6969 (240549) | more than 13 years ago | (#462484)

Let's face it, juno is at their ends. This is a last ditch effort to gain some investment funding from somebody. New angle, give us $10 million so we can last another year... The fact is the revenue is not going to be made with this policy, the free isp model is 100% flawed in the current market, and well i don't blame them for trying, they are trying to feed their families, and the freenet idea is a very noble cause. Only way i ever see the freenet idea working is if the government comes in and backs it up for those (elderly, lower income) with some of our hard earned tax money.

Where are the free (as in speech) ISPs? (2)

squiggleslash (241428) | more than 13 years ago | (#462485)

Juno seems to be following a trend - that where ISPs are getting cheaper, towards the goal of free as in beer, there is a drying up of free as in speech access. I'd gladly pay a little more (up to $50) for an ISP that lets me use its services 24/7, with a static IP and the right to run my own servers (I just want to host my own homepages, receive mail by SMTP and be able to telnet/ssh in), but the options are drying up.

I don't know any major national ISP that allows the above. You can usually get local access if you know someone at an ISP, but you know that that friend leaving is likely to be the end of that option. I came across one DSL operator that offers all of the above and they don't operate in my area.

I suspect Juno's T&Cs, while extreme, are probably the sign of things to come. Until most people are willing to pay a fair price for Internet access, everyone will find their options disappearing. An interesting twist on the term "The "free" market".
--

Ethical and Moral obligations (2)

Baddas (243852) | more than 13 years ago | (#462487)

Does anyone else here think that Juno is getting into some pretty deep water here?
If they don't make this VERY explicit in installation, etc. I think they might be in for

A. Backlash, i.e. everyone taking off.

B. Lawsuit. As far as I'm concerned, if a company(M$) did this to me, that's stealing cycles, power, and bandwidth.

Re:Oh my (2)

LordArathres (244483) | more than 13 years ago | (#462488)

Here is the thing. Why should we not blame Juno for this? It is true that companies are allowed to do what is within the law. I dont really care if they are doing this or not. I will not use their service and tell others not to do so. But most people dont read the liscense and just agree to whatever pops on their screen. Does that make it right? No.

And yes I know their program will not hurt any processor or hardware. And most people wont even know it is running. The point I was trying to make is, How FAR will companies go to make money? I am seriously thinking about installing this and putting a filter just to see WHAT data it transmits.

These are the sort of tactics by companies that have no monetary income except for advertising. Since most people in general hate advertising and just ignore it, Juno is looking for a way to make money. Their idea is not even original. SETI@Home have been doing this for years, and I have NO problem with their software running on my computers becuase it is for genuine research, sort of. Who knows what Juno will be doing, they don't tell you.

The thing that I also do not like is that they may require you to keep your computer on 24 hours a day, and you cannot disable the screensaver that runs while processing. Last time I checked, I payed for my computers and I will turn them off whenever I damn well please. I'm starting to rant, so I'll just shut up now.

Lord Arathres

contraddictions, dot-com meltdown, and so on (2)

kipple (244681) | more than 13 years ago | (#462489)

I believe that this Juno accident is only the first one. "we" were lucky because someone spotted it, but who knows how may software are installed and how many licence agreements are subscribed that will allow even worse things?
I think that Juno can decide to wake you up in the morning by playing some high-volume Disco music (and that would be funny), or just decide to pursue legally ANYONE who accidently turned off their computer.
I wonder if they should sue microsoft for making unreliable operating systems that cannot stay up more than few days, and so preventing any user to obey the licence terms of juno (and that would be scary).

I wonder if we're slowly going back to the old days, when people weren't thinking about making money online. Perhaps in 10 years we'll have 2 different networks, e-internet or some weird trendy name network (created to make money), and a 'undernet' in its real meaning, where people ("geeks") will pursue the real goal of a worldwile network: communication.

Personally, I don' care too much about this Juno accident: they'll sue users, make their computer a slave, recreate Big Brother or whatever (think about users who have a webcam and uses Juno...). On the long run they aren't affecting those who have enough knowledge to hack around.

Freedom trough the power of human mind will survive. Losers will get caught in a Web of dot-coms doomed to eat each other forever.

just my .005$ (inflaction will soon bring it to 20$, but that's another story)

Re:Why is this an issue? (3)

Genom (3868) | more than 13 years ago | (#462491)

This is clearly posted in their privacy policy and terms of service.

...which, assuming Juno is your only ISP, they can change without notice while you're offline, then you implicitly agree to while you connect to them, before you even have a chance to read it. Dirty pool.

People are smart enough to read and understand TOS's, if they choose not to then they shouldn't act surprised when revelations like this occur.

The problem with this logic is that, quite frankly, our society goes out of it's way to tell people "You're not smart enough to understand legalese - that's why laywers go to law school" -- so the average Joe, who may or may not actually be smart enough, and posess an advanced enough vocabulary to comprehend the legalese, generally doesn't think that they CAN understand it, so why bother reading it. Most people in the US at least are sheep. They trust others implicitly when it comes to stuff like this. They trust Juno NOT to have crap like this in their agreement -- not that that's right at all, I'm just making a point here.

Using Juno is a choice. If you don't like their choices, DON'T use them.

I agree wholeheartedly - but WE'RE not the ones who need to know about this. The "sheep" need to know about this. I like the idea that someone came up with about spamming Juno's users with an email about exactly what their TOS allows...

Juno is without an explicit cost, but nothing in life is free.

Ah yes. True again. But Juno goes out of their way to hide the nefarious stuff in the legalese of their agreement. Nowhere on their website or in their advertizing materials do they even pay lip service to "Computational Software" or "You must keep your computer on 24/7 or we reserve the right to take it away from you, store it in our bunker in the middle of the pacific ocean, and charge you for the electricity and long-distance charges". Their advertrizing basically ammounts to "Free, easy email! Use us!"

It's a stunning slap to the face in the name of "always read the fine print" though.

Re:TANSTAFL (3)

edhall (10025) | more than 13 years ago | (#462492)

You or I wouldn't touch this with a ten-foot pole, but there actually is a fair fraction of the public which doesn't care who knows where they browse, and which doesn't have any idea of the other risks. After all, many people don't mind their local drug store tracking their purchases through discount cards. And if purchase data helps the drugstore keep the things people buy in in stock and makes the ad flyers they receive more likely to have the stuff they want in them, why, that's just making a happier (if violated) customer.

ISP's (and to a lesser extent, portals) can go even farther, and anticipate interest in particular products based on browsing behavior. Yet another step toward happy consumerdom: if they get good enough at their tracking, you'll never have to see an ad you aren't interested in. Joe consumer is supposed to enjoy that his privacy is being pimped to the highest bidder. And, sadly enough, there is evidence that this may indeed be so. (That doesn't mean that Juno will be able to actually pull off this marketer's wet dream, of course.)

That said, the distributed-computing angle of this is actually pretty interesting as a way of generating income for Juno. It will be a lot easier for them, as an ISP, to administer this sort of system than for a stand-alone enterprise to do so. Yes, the security issues are mind-boggling, and the near-inevitable scandal that results will probably kill them (if nothing else does first). But it's an idea that will likely succeed at some point, even if Juno fails.

-Ed

Oh my (3)

LordArathres (244483) | more than 13 years ago | (#462495)

I just read the whole policy and wow, they just keep on getting better.

1. They can download stuff to your computer and make it do work.
2. It works like a screen saver and you are not ALLOWED to disable it. You also cannot un-install Windows or they will simply kill you.
3. They can make your computer call their servers to upload results and any other thing they find on your computer, because you wont know.
4. They may require you to keep your computer on 24 hours a day, and oh by the way are NOT responsible for the electricity it consumes. Why should they be, you're stupid not to have read the policy in the first place.
5. They are not responsible for any damages caused by your computer working on a problem while you are not on it. This will probably include very intensive Mathematical Calculations that I know a overclocked processor will just love.
6. They can send someone to your house to turn your computer on if you leave it off. Why not. It would be funny. That same person can also connect your computer back to the phone line becuase you disconnected it because it was calling their servers 5 states away.
7. They can all laugh at you for actually agreeing to this. Then having Jim win the office pool becasue he guessed right on the amount of people that never will read the agreement anyway.

Finally Juno can do anything it damn well programs its software to do on your computer all in the name of Freedom from Paying for the NET!

Come on People bend over and pay $20 a month for a real ISP, one that doesn't basically put an employee looking over your shoulder at your computer anytime you use it.

I dont see how companies like this actually work.

Lord Arathres

TANSTAFL (3)

chuqui (264912) | more than 13 years ago | (#462496)

There's no such thing as a free lunch.

Guess what? Juno isn't free. it simply charges a different pound of flesh. And, as it keeps finding that it can't survive on what it's getting from you, it raises it's price. Only their price isn't cash.

If this doesn't finally kill them off, I'll be amazed. I see it as a sign of desperation that they've finally hit this level of invasion to try to find ways to avoid actually charging money like everyone else.

Juno is simply proving that putting it on the internet doesn't make it immune to business realities -- or Darwin.

leave your computer running 24/7 (4)

Zapd (29091) | more than 13 years ago | (#462497)

..and they expect that of windows systems? Bwuhaha.

(sorry, couldn't resist)

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Compare that. (4)

ooze (307871) | more than 13 years ago | (#462498)

You expressly permit and authorize Shell to (i) load to your car one or more pieces of technical devices (the "Driving Supporters") designed to perform actions, which may be unrelated to the driving of the car, on behalf of Shell (or on behalf of such third parties as may be authorized by Shell, subject to the Privacy Statement), (ii) run the Driving Supporters on your car to perform and store the results of such actions, and (iii) get such results to Shell Stations during a subsequent fueling, whether initiated by you in the course of using the Service or by the Driving Supporters as further described below. In connection with loading and running the Computational Software, Shell may require you to leave your car unlocked and running at all times, and may replace the stored radio channels that runs on car radio while the car is running. The radio channels installed by Shell, which may play advertisements or other shows chosen by Shell, is an integral part of the Driving Supporters and you agree not to take any action to disable or interfere with the operation of either the radio or any other component of the Driving Supporters. You agree that, as between you and Shell, you shall be responsible for any costs or expenses resulting from the continuous operation of your car, including without limitation any associated charges for gas, and that you shall have sole responsibility for any maintenance or technical issues that might result from such continuous operation. You agree that, as between you and Shell, Shell shall have sole rights to the results of any actions performed by the Driving Supporters, including without limitation any revenues or any property generated directly or indirectly as a result of such actions, without further compensation to you. If your usage of the car is infrequent, Shell's ability to obtain the results of completed actions may be impaired. Consequently, you expressly permit and authorize Shell to initiate an opening of your car and taking anything to Shells's Headquarter using a key you have previously attached to your car; Shell agrees that it shall exercise such right only to the extent necessary, as determined in Shell's sole discretion, to store the results of completed actions to Shell in a timely fashion; and you agree that, as between you and Shell, you shall be responsible for any costs and expenses (including without limitation any applicable transportation charges) resulting from the foregoing. Shell agrees that any device, baggage, or other materials loaded to your car in connection with the activities described in this Section 2.5 will comply with Shell's privacy policies, as reflected in the Privacy Statement. You agree that you will not attempt to examin any such devices, baggage, or other materials or transfer or disclose any such devices, baggage, or other materials, or the results of any such actions, to any third party. You acknowledge that your compliance with the requirements of this Section 2.5 may be considered by Shell to be an inseparable part of the Service, and that any interference with the operation of the Driving Suppoters (including, but not limited to, any failure to leave your car running at all times) may result in termination or limitation of your use of the refueling Service. You acknowledge that Section 6 of this Agreement shall expressly apply to the activities described in this Section 2.5.

I guess it pays ... (4)

aznin (309986) | more than 13 years ago | (#462499)

... to read the legalese in these User Agreements carefully. I don't know about anyone else, but I often just click "I agree" to avoid having to read through 20 pages of badly written pseudo-English that mostly looks like it's an extremely verbose version of a copyright symbol.

I'm getting slightly nervous here ... what have I agreed to so far?! Call my lawyer!

Prior art!? (5)

rnturn (11092) | more than 13 years ago | (#462500)

``Or get that bobbing head bird to hit the keyboard like Homer Simpson did.''

I actually proposed something like that in a department meeting held on April 1 back in 1980 (maybe 1981) so those who were running long simulations wouldn't get disconnected by the silly IBM terminal controller from the campus VM/CMS system. No keyboard activity for fifteen minutes and you got clobbered. (Tentative funding for the project was approved until initial project team discussions revealed that the only place where anyone could remember seeing one of the birds was at a Stuckey's on the Ohio turnpike and enthusiasm for the project waned quickly.)


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The Plain Englidh Version (5)

Dracophile (140936) | more than 13 years ago | (#462501)

You agree to the following:

1. Service
1.1. This contract is binding.
1.2. But not on us.

2. Your Obligations
2.1. You give us the right to know anything about you that takes our fancy.
2.2. Or about anyone else, for that matter.
2.3. You cough up any connection charges. Notice how we keep this separate from paragraph 2.5.
2.4. You agree to eat spam.
2.5. pH33r u5! w3 @re 1337 h4x0r5. We will make your PC dial our POPs. They might even be local calls. W3 0wn j00r 5cr33n 54v3r. We want your pr0n. We wish to use your computer in a distributed processing scheme for our company's purposes.
2.6. You acknowledge that the Service is provided only for personal use by you and members of your household, and not for corporate or excessive commercial use or for use by organizations or other groups of users. Unless they're us.
2.7. You may or not get your email, our distributed processing requirements notwithstanding. We cannot plan or manage our servers, so there's no telling how long your mail's going to sit on our server.

3. Content
3.1. We can't possibly take any responsibility for or action over norty stuff floating about on the net. Unless you put it there. Or tried to.
3.2. If you're stealing stuff, we don't even want to know about it.
3.3. Oh, and we own your IP, too.

4. Software License
4.1. We'll even let you use the software by which we own you.
4.2. Hell, we'll even let you inf^Hstall it on other peoples' PCs!
4.3. Until you try to exercise your fair use rights.
4.4. Or even export it.
4.5. Or work for the guv'mint.
4.6. We really do own you.

5. Fees
5.1. You even enjoy the privilege of paying for all of this.
5.2. And there's just so many fun ways to do it!
5.3. And for us to collect it.
5.4. And, what's more, we'll just do it for you!
5.5. But you still get to pay for non-free (beer) stuff.

6. No Warranties
6.1. No kidding.
6.2. No, really!
6.3. No warranties here.
6.4. None here, either, no siree!

7. Indemnification
Nor responsibility, either.

8. Termination
8.1. We can cut you off at any time we like. Anything you put on our servers can no longer be accessed by you. Not that you ever owned it, anyway.
8.2. If you don't like it, you can always leave. After you pay us.

9. Miscellaneous
9.1. Don't even think of trying to slime out of this contract.
9.2. Put your lawyers away. If any part of this agreement is held to be unenforceable, we're going to enforce it anyway. We have more money than you.
9.3. And bought the laws to protect us.

10. For Quebec Residents Only
Our legal staff can't speak French.


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No (5)

Sheeple Police (247465) | more than 13 years ago | (#462502)

Will Juno users realize what they are agreeing to?

My experience with Juno users is that they have been of two types. The first type is people who were dislocated from their previous ISP, typically AOL or Compuserve by their parents, and installed Juno to be able to get back online without their parents knowledge. The second type is of people who have no clue what this "Internet" thing is they keep hearing about, and they sure as gosh darn heck don't wanna have to pay, so they use a free server, and really don't even use it.

Of course, I'm omitting the third type, which are skr1pt k1dd13s who want to think they are secure from tracking by using these free servers, but I don't really count them as people, but more as illiterate brutes ;-)

In the first case, the kids don't care how they get online as long as they can get back to their chat/message boards/surfing/porn, and in the second case, they are too baffled by legalese to ever realize whats going on. As for the skr1pt k1dd13s, heck, let Microsoft get them for hacking their servers [yahoo.com] and stealing their source code [zdnet.co.uk] , its no skin off my back to see those brats busted.

I think the bigger question instead of "Do Juno users realize what they are agreeing to" is "Is this ethical? And more importantly, is this right?"
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