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SCADA Vulnerabilities In Prisons Could Open Cell Doors

timothy posted more than 2 years ago | from the prison-break-meets-wargames dept.

Security 134

Orome1 writes "Many prisons and jails use SCADA systems with PLCs to open and close doors. Using original and publicly available exploits along with evaluating vulnerabilities in electronic and physical security designs, researchers discovered significant vulnerabilities in PLCs used in correctional facilities by being able to remotely flip the switches to 'open' or 'locked closed' on cell doors and gates."

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U.S. prison system is flawed (5, Insightful)

SharkLaser (2495316) | more than 2 years ago | (#38554676)

The SCADA system isn't flawed, the whole prison system in U.S. is. Not only have studies shown that there is no need for such locked down prison facilities, but it's also demonstrated by real life experiences in Norway. Almost all of Norway's prisons are open. Their objective isn't locking down people but correct behaviour. The purpose is to create real life environment, complete with saunas, sunbeds and own rooms and furniture [dailymail.co.uk] . It makes much more sense too. If you just lock down people for years they are always going to stay criminals. If you try to correct their behaviour and reintroduce them to system and proper behavior, they will learn and also stay out of prisons in future. It's very telling that U.S. has one of the highest percentages of their people in prisons. That system clearly isn't working.

Re:U.S. prison system is flawed (-1, Troll)

plover (150551) | more than 2 years ago | (#38554688)

If you want to talk about boo-hoo bad US prisons, may I suggest you go troll over at HuffPost? If you want to talk SCADA vulnerabilities, we'll be here.

Re:U.S. prison system is flawed (5, Insightful)

SharkLaser (2495316) | more than 2 years ago | (#38554706)

You need to look at complete picture when fixing bugs and vulnerabilities. There wouldn't be need for any SCADA system to begin with if U.S. fixed its prison system. Currently it's only making money for those who own prisons. It's mind blowing that something like prisons would be commercially run.

Re:U.S. prison system is flawed (3, Insightful)

Samantha Wright (1324923) | more than 2 years ago | (#38554770)

Quite—it would also mean there would be less motivation to attack the software at prisons in the first place. I completely agree that such a discussion is relevant to the discussion at hand.

Re:U.S. prison system is flawed (5, Insightful)

Genda (560240) | more than 2 years ago | (#38555052)

The problem is a fundamentalist, puritanical desire to render retribution from prisoners instead of addressing the real underlying issues. The current system is disaster to the guilty it warehouses and an obscenity to the innocent people wrongly convicted. Its just easier to blame people, have public lynchings and dispose of the bodies, than actually look at the issues of organized crime, drug abuse, violence in our culture and what is quickly becoming a nation which criminalizes its poor. Growing studies show that there is no justice in the justice system. Cameron Todd Willingham was executed in Texas this year, with what amounts now to a mountain of evidence that he was innocent of any crime. Confronted with either looking soft on crime or doing the right thing, Governor Perry chose instead to have an innocent man executed. Capital punishment is the new coliseum. There isn't a single sane argument that supports capital punishment.

Prison's should be divided into those who can be rehabilitated and those that can't or shouldn't be. Both sides of the prison can do useful work, earn a wage that provides for their families, restitution to victims and pay their own cost of living. For those in the side supporting rehabilitation, giving them job skills and real life skills, that will serve them when they leave will dramatically reduce recidivism. Separating career criminals from young people who made a mistake, is a vital step in ending the criminal cycle. Keeping the most dangerous and violent offenders separate, and ensuring that they aren't in a position to do harm, will immediately enhance the security for both guards and inmates.

Re:U.S. prison system is flawed (2)

foobsr (693224) | more than 2 years ago | (#38555172)

addressing the real underlying issues

Solving problems does not create revenue streams. Only if you install what I call an onion system (introducing ever new layers to fix problems) will you generate 'wealth' and 'growth'.

CC.

Re:U.S. prison system is flawed (2)

skegg (666571) | more than 2 years ago | (#38555542)

Just to clarify your opening sentence:

desire to render retribution from prisoners instead of addressing the real underlying issues

I don't think it's either/or ... I believe the desire is for both.
Theoretically incarceration satisfies multiple desires:

1. deterrent -- incarceration should deter the criminal (and others) from committing crimes
2. remove dangerous people from the streets (protect the public)
3. retribution -- satisfy the victims (or victims' families) desire for revenge (hence eliminate feuds)
4. rehabilitation -- inmates to receive training, counselling, ...
(there may be others)

I'm not saying the prison system succeeds in satisfying all these objectives, just that there are multiple objectives.

Re:U.S. prison system is flawed (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38556856)

"Cameron Todd Willingham was executed in Texas this year"

Huh, so it is 2004?

Re:U.S. prison system is flawed (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38557108)

why give them job skills when most won't hire them? even with these job skills, society will never be fully accepting.
felons can't vote, which is fucking ridiculous as they've served their time, so why sh/would they cater to society's laws, when they'll never be a full member of society again?
i'd really like to know how much correlation there is between things like this and recidivism.

Re:U.S. prison system is flawed (1)

budgenator (254554) | more than 2 years ago | (#38558036)

Prison's should be divided into those who can be rehabilitated and those that can't or shouldn't be. Both sides of the prison can do useful work, earn a wage that provides for their families, restitution to victims and pay their own cost of living. For those in the side supporting rehabilitation, giving them job skills and real life skills, that will serve them when they leave will dramatically reduce recidivism. Separating career criminals from young people who made a mistake, is a vital step in ending the criminal cycle. Keeping the most dangerous and violent offenders separate, and ensuring that they aren't in a position to do harm, will immediately enhance the security for both guards and inmates.

I'm perplexed as to how you propose these "people" be divided into those who can be rehabilitated and those that can't or shouldn't be, especially the one you feel shouldn't be. I know in my state, all inmates are in-processed at a central location and given intensive psychological and behavioral evaluations. After that they are transferred to correctional facilities based on their violence potential, treatment and or vocational needs and type of offense they were convicted of. Our Judicial and Correctional systems have a high degree of separation. While every state has their own system, Texas tends to be an outlier of the general trends nationally, and most of what you say is needed has been SOP for decades.

Re:U.S. prison system is flawed (2)

Jaktar (975138) | more than 2 years ago | (#38555528)

You need to look at complete picture when fixing bugs and vulnerabilities. There wouldn't be need for any SCADA system to begin with if U.S. fixed its prison system. Currently it's only making money for those who own prisons. It's mind blowing that something like prisons would be commercially run.

I don't think you know what SCADA is. I can assure you that there are uses for SCADA outside of prisons and the vulnerabilities that exist within prisons are the same for those outside of prisons. The main difference what happens if they do affect a prison. To tie this back into tech talk though, SCADA is currently actively preventing a Linux file system creator from continuing his work. There's a conspiracy theory there, I'm sure.

Re:U.S. prison system is flawed (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38555760)

Hans Reiser would kill to be a part of that comment.

Re:U.S. prison system is flawed (2)

Ihmhi (1206036) | more than 2 years ago | (#38555798)

Agreed. All the best tech practices in the world won't help your network function well if your users are drooling morons (also known as executives).

Re:U.S. prison system is flawed (3, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38554714)

"News for nerds, stuff that matters". I'd call prisons "stuff that matters". And nowhere did you attempt to refute any of the perfectly valid points made in the parent. You're simply complaining because he has a different opinion.

magnetic boots (3, Funny)

noh8rz2 (2538714) | more than 2 years ago | (#38554794)

you can add redundancy with magnetic boots! flip the switch when the gates go haywire, and everybody is locked down. face/off!

Re:U.S. prison system is flawed (5, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38554696)

It's very telling that U.S. has one of the highest percentages of their people in prisons. That system clearly isn't working.

The more people in jail, the more money the private companies running the jails make. The system is working as designed.

Re:U.S. prison system is flawed (2, Interesting)

djl4570 (801529) | more than 2 years ago | (#38554712)

Not only have studies shown that there is no need for such locked down prison facilities

What studies? In which journals were they published and where can I read an abstract?

Re:U.S. prison system is flawed (5, Informative)

Samantha Wright (1324923) | more than 2 years ago | (#38554844)

Are you serious? This is painfully trivial to find with Google Scholar.

Education or punishment? Reformatory schools in Norway, 18401950 Education or punishment? Reformatory schools in Norway, 18401950 [tandfonline.com]
Daddy in Prison: An Evaluation [googleusercontent.com] (Norwegian)
The prison reform movement: Forlorn hope [getcited.org]
People's Justice - A Major Poll of Public Attitudes on Crime and Punishment [ncjrs.gov]
Wilful Obstruction - The Frustration of Prison Reform [ncjrs.gov]
Reaffirming Rehabilitation [ncjrs.gov]


On top of that you have the highly conservative Daily Mail, as the grandparent poster linked, stating unabashedly that the system on Bastoy has proven itself as being more effective than Norwegian closed (traditional) prisons, which is a position that is quite controversial for the newspaper and not at all towing the party line. That may not have the integrity of a longitudinal study conducted by unbiased researchers, but the tour escort is quoted as saying that there has only been one attempted escape in all of Bastoy's years of operation, and that the region has the lowest re-offending rate in all of Europe despite Norway's absence of a death penalty or life sentence. These are not light claims.

Next time please RTFA and JFGI [justfuckinggoogleit.com] .

Don't shoot at ghosts, rookie. It gets you laughed at.

Re:U.S. prison system is flawed (1)

kestasjk (933987) | more than 2 years ago | (#38554930)

"Don't shoot at ghosts, rookie. It gets you laughed at."

Re:U.S. prison system is flawed (1)

Samantha Wright (1324923) | more than 2 years ago | (#38555016)

[citation needed] is serious business!

Re:U.S. prison system is flawed (1)

djl4570 (801529) | more than 2 years ago | (#38556200)

Thank you for establishing that appeal to authority is a valid form of argument on /.

Re:U.S. prison system is flawed (1)

Samantha Wright (1324923) | more than 2 years ago | (#38557694)

Appeal to authority is a valid argument everywhere. I take it you've never heard of scientific integrity?

Re:U.S. prison system is flawed (1)

budgenator (254554) | more than 2 years ago | (#38558188)

My text book on Logic disagrees with you,

Appeal to authority – (argumentum ad verecundiam) deductively fallacious; even legitimate authorities speaking on their areas of expertise may affirm a falsehood. However, if not using a deductive argument, a logical fallacy is only asserted when the source is not a legitimate expert on the topic at hand, or their conclusion(s) are in direct opposition to other expert consensus. Appeal to authority does not condone to agreeing to the argument. Formal fallacies [wikipedia.org]

as does Wikipedia.

Re:U.S. prison system is flawed (1)

andydread (758754) | more than 2 years ago | (#38556318)

Woops looks like she handed your ass to you. Yeah it's really not hard like she says. Just RTFA and JFGI and you'd be amazed at what you will find.

Re:U.S. prison system is flawed (1)

djl4570 (801529) | more than 2 years ago | (#38556732)

A whinging rant that claims JFGI is part of the readers job description is hardly an ass whooping. I reject that assertion and assert that the author who wrote "Studies show" should JFGI. TFA in that same post was infotainment at the Daily Mail, a source that has been excoriated here in the past. I agree that the system is broken but that post didn't offer anything more than a troll for eyeballs and advertising revenue that the eyeballs attract.

Re:U.S. prison system is flawed (2, Insightful)

pete6677 (681676) | more than 2 years ago | (#38554724)

The United States is not Norway. Norway does not have violent illegal immigrant gangbangers. If they did, they would have to create a real prison system.

Look what happened when there was that shooter at the kids' camp. The police did not even know how to respond.

Re:U.S. prison system is flawed (5, Insightful)

SharkLaser (2495316) | more than 2 years ago | (#38554742)

Look what happened when there was that shooter at the kids' camp. The police did not even know how to respond.

Yes they did, but the shooter had planned it well. First bomb in city center and then go to an island to shoot kids. It would had been disaster everywhere in world.

The United States is not Norway. Norway does not have violent illegal immigrant gangbangers. If they did, they would have to create a real prison system.

Which is mostly caused by the stupid war on drugs. If you just let your people get high there wouldn't be any reason for such violent immigrant crimes that mostly come from Mexico. There was lots of crime involving bootleg alcohol when it was banned too. All that went away when alcohol was legalized.

Re:U.S. prison system is flawed (3, Interesting)

Jah-Wren Ryel (80510) | more than 2 years ago | (#38554778)

There was lots of crime involving bootleg alcohol when it was banned too. All that went away when alcohol was legalized.

Actually it diversified - it was a huge boost for organized crime syndicates like the mafia. We should expect the same sort of 50+ year run for everybody who came up in the drug cartel system to die off before we are really free of the effects of the drug war. Just in time for everybody to forget the lessons of the past and shoot ourselves in the foot with some new arbitrary contraband.

Re:U.S. prison system is flawed (1)

Samantha Wright (1324923) | more than 2 years ago | (#38554850)

We can avoid that by making something else contraband before we forget; a kind of chaining effect. I motion that we should ban first posts.

Re:U.S. prison system is flawed (1)

foobsr (693224) | more than 2 years ago | (#38555236)

some new arbitrary contraband

Probably not so arbitrary: general purpose computers, or more general, contraptions pertinent to disrupt order.

CC.

Re:U.S. prison system is flawed (1)

Ihmhi (1206036) | more than 2 years ago | (#38555812)

There was lots of crime involving bootleg alcohol when it was banned too. All that went away when alcohol was legalized.

Yes, but I can easily see a world where drugs are legal and gang members are doing drive-bys over bootleg Gucci purses and bootleg DVDs.

It's about what's the most convenient profit that isn't legal.

Re:U.S. prison system is flawed (2)

russotto (537200) | more than 2 years ago | (#38556068)

Yes, but I can easily see a world where drugs are legal and gang members are doing drive-bys over bootleg Gucci purses and bootleg DVDs.

I can postulate it, but it seems rather unlikely. Gucci purses and legal DVDs are regularly available, which sets a ceiling on the price for the bootlegs; at some point sale of the merchandise fails to cover the overhead of running a criminal enterprise.

Re:U.S. prison system is flawed (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38555114)

The majority of violent gangbangers are not immigrants. The majority of criminals in the U.S. aren't even minorities..

The U.S. prison system is only a "real" prison system because there are "real" profits to be made from keeping people locked up for decades. The more the industry develops the more investors profit. All that prison tech that your tax dollars are paying for are more to keep shareholders happy than to do anything to the prisoners. But as long as it helps you sleep at night knowing your being screwed as are thousands of prisoners who are locked up for petty crimes.

As the other poster stated, these prisons aren't doing anything but training people to come back so the industry can remain profitable.

Re:U.S. prison system is flawed (5, Insightful)

billcopc (196330) | more than 2 years ago | (#38554726)

The purpose of the U.S. system isn't to rehabilitate criminals, it's to generate profits [wikipedia.org] .

Re:U.S. prison system is flawed (5, Informative)

SpiralSpirit (874918) | more than 2 years ago | (#38554856)

Norway is an entirely different country with a far more homogeneous population and completely different social dynamics. At the prison you mention re-offend rates were 16%. At a normal Norwegian prison (not the cushy kind) re-offend rates were only 20% - 4% more. Recidivism varies per state in the US. Arizona is pretty close to norway with 24.6%. Nevada was at 29.2. California was at 70% and connecticut was at 56%. There are social issues involved. wikipedia says that in NYC, police arrest 200k black males every year, out of a total population of 1200k. 1/6th of that particular group gets arrested EVERY YEAR. You can't solve that problem by making jail more inviting, but you can't necessarily solve it by making jail worse. Thats why its a difficult dilemma - it isn't easy to solve.

Re:U.S. prison system is flawed (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38554928)

200k black males are arrested every year, or 200k different black males are arrested every year?

Does this mean arrests that lead to conviction only, or does it include arrests that result in the arrested person being released for whatever reason?

Re:U.S. prison system is flawed (2)

kestasjk (933987) | more than 2 years ago | (#38554936)

Maybe if we install Linux in the prison monitoring systems? I'm pretty sure studies have shown that in trial studies in German prisons there was a high correlation with lower recidivism rates

Re:U.S. prison system is flawed (2, Funny)

SpiralSpirit (874918) | more than 2 years ago | (#38554960)

this year is obviously the year of the linux prison.

Re:U.S. prison system is flawed (2, Funny)

SharkLaser (2495316) | more than 2 years ago | (#38554980)

BSD already has jails!

Re:U.S. prison system is flawed (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38555078)

Yo dawg, I herd you like jails, so I put a jail in your prison so you can prison while you jail

Re:U.S. prison system is flawed (4, Insightful)

TheLink (130905) | more than 2 years ago | (#38554938)

You can't solve that problem by making jail more inviting,

It's not about making jail more inviting. A prison system that is civilized and actually _actively_ tries to help prisoners gives them fewer excuses to say that "They are against Us" and more reasons to feel part of the Main Tribe, to leave their current gang (their old tribe) and rejoin mainstream society (the "main tribe").

If you feel part of the tribe you are less likely to go against it than if you feel like you're in a different tribe. After all when they're in their gang it's not just fear of punishment that keeps them in compliance with their gang traditions and rules.

It doesn't make noncompliance impossible, but it seems more likely than if you keep reinforcing the "Us vs Them" thinking - e.g. humiliating them, treating them with contempt, not even allowing them to vote (very common in the US), etc.

It's different to be still considered part of the tribe and merely being in a "time out" for committing crimes, than to be considered a "prisoner" and a member of a different tribe - just POWs waiting to get out and continue their war against mainstream society (who is conducting a war against them).

Most (not all) humans are social creatures. Yes such stuff won't work on a few but maybe nothing is likely to work on them[1]. But when you have people who are members of gangs following gang rules, why can't you make them members of "Our Gang" and follow our rules?

[1] Even so you could still keep two prisons, one more open and one more for those who have proven to be a persistent danger to society and really need to be kept away for safety reasons (but not completely isolated!) for a legally limited amount of time.

Re:U.S. prison system is flawed (1)

SpiralSpirit (874918) | more than 2 years ago | (#38554958)

[1] Even so you could still keep two prisons, one more open and one more for those who have proven to be a persistent danger to society and really need to be kept away for safety reasons (but not completely isolated!) for a legally limited amount of time.

we do. Thats why there are different security prisons. Less security, more open.

And you didn't address anything else I've said. Your points are all wonderful but even within the united states there are huge variances in recidivism. Most of it is societal. You aren't going to override something that they've been learning all their lives with a wonderful prison atmosphere. They aren't your gang, and they know it.

Re:U.S. prison system is flawed (2)

TheLink (130905) | more than 2 years ago | (#38555130)

They aren't your gang, and they know it.

That's exactly what I'm talking about. As long as you do not fix that, the problem will remain. You put them in US style prisons and they'll certainly continue believing they are not your gang, and for good reason - by putting them in US style prisons you are reinforcing the belief that they are not your gang.

And as long as people "outside" continue believing "the prisoners are not the same gang", the problem of reintegration will remain and hence there will be higher recidivism.

As for the rest of what you said, I did address them, you and I both claim the problem is societal.

If making prisoners believe they are members of the "Main gang" is too hard (since the main gang is not really very cohesive), might it not be possible to make them believe they are members of a different sort of gang which does not reoffend etc?

Re:U.S. prison system is flawed (2)

alanwall (319926) | more than 2 years ago | (#38556768)

ok I am a felon for life.I turned 21 in prison in California/1968 for 3 joints. During my time-6 weeks-in the routing system of the penal system I was assigned to the library to compile data for the past 6 years of inmate data. I made a type of excel using legal sized paper and finished the project before I was shipped to Chino to work as a drafter.The data showed the largest percent came for LA and SF and was about even between blacks and mexicans with native americans being the lowest.Education was 10th grade or less.Single parent was high.Most had priors in adult or youth court.I have forgotten the rest of the types of data..I got the job because I had college.While serving my time in Chino I met many 18-19 years olds that had been in the "system" since 9 years old.It was the only life they knew and was/is a inmate form of higher education.After 10 years in the big house you could have a masters in any the the top paying criminal jobs
plus a law degree/other high paying "normal" jobs.All paid for by the tax payer.Many would be "free" on the outside and only make it 1-2 weeks before they were back behind bars.Ever hear the saying " 3 hots and a cot".Life is stable for them with a place to eat/sleep.
Many in the "free" outside world today would be glad to have that "insurance" as they sleep under a bridge/wherever.And I would put little value to the "studies" done by "experts" in criminalogy/related social sciences.I sat in on many of these in state prison/county
jails and inmates by about 66 percent know how to play the system to be viewed as " victims" of their upbringing/enviroment. The " I am not bad/society made me this way" lie.While true that both can and does play a roll in their path in life, they are still a smaller percent of those that live in that life hell.If ALL the people that have a less than hollywood life used that excuse,they
would not be able to build prisons fast enough.From my
view and "real life" data, I would say that 62 percent of the people in prison at this current time belong in their
preferred habit for life. Think Shawshank Redemption-the movie-when the old man who was the librarian was set free.And for those against capitol punishment.Shame on you for being cruel and demanding a "civil" end to it.For many on death row they consider it cruel and unusual punishment to be left alone in a cell with little interface
to other people/books/movies/fresh air. All the other things that a normal inmate gets.Here in Oregon, we had
an inmate on death row demand that the state carry out
in a timely manner his court ordered death as ordered by
jurors in his trial.But before he got his legal rights granted to a fair and timely sentence as required BY LAW, the governor outlawed all capitol punishment.
Now who is breaking the law ? The inmate was denied
his rights as ordered by law.So now he will rot in his tiny
cell for life with no hope of an end to his private hell.
Guilty of murder beyond doubt,after the verdict is read
roll in the pay per view video cameras and a guillotine
and off with their head.Crimes such as committed by Bernie Madoff and his kind would also end the same
way.Along with any one in the child porn/sex abuse
cases.Think about it, a person kills another person and the impact on the victims family is short lived.Where in the white collar crimes like stock/investment/ponzi schemes/etc destroy generations from a better life/college and all the things that that money would have
made possible.Madoff is not in a blue collar prison and
Bubbas bitch.Sorry for bad spelling but it is new years
and may ? be the last. /end rant

Re:U.S. prison system is flawed (1)

TheLink (130905) | more than 2 years ago | (#38557140)

Ever hear the saying " 3 hots and a cot".Life is stable for them with a place to eat/sleep. Many in the "free" outside world today would be glad to have that "insurance" as they sleep under a bridge/wherever.

In Norway and some other countries people don't have to commit a crime just to get shelter and/or food. I think it works out cheaper their way - less crime, fewer expensive prisons. Seems more civilized too.

You'll get many people bumming around, but they probably leech/cost less than those getting trillion dollar bailouts, or stupid patents that slow progress. Some will get bored eventually and try to do something productive or entertaining. Compose music, make videos, maybe even write OSS.

Plus if AIs and robots eventually get smart enough to do most jobs, leaving only a few jobs for humans[1], most humans will join the ranks of these "bums". So we might as well prepare a nice path towards a system where most humans can bum around in a civilized manner, than ending up with a few Kings, each with tech-priests, "worshippers" and slaves - which is what may happen if you continue with a free market "Winner Takes All" path.

[1] You already see this happening with those data centers that Google, Amazon etc build. They cost billions of dollars and make a lot of money, but don't require that many people to run. And the idea is for them to require fewer and fewer people as technology and processes improve.

Re:U.S. prison system is flawed (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38554972)

Unfortunately, the US prison system sees nearly 1/4th of inmates raped, which does nothing to help reintegration into society upon release.

Re:U.S. prison system is flawed (2)

SuricouRaven (1897204) | more than 2 years ago | (#38555116)

Or as the prison operators see it, repeat customers.

Re:U.S. prison system is flawed (2)

digsbo (1292334) | more than 2 years ago | (#38557600)

wikipedia says that in NYC, police arrest 200k black males every year, out of a total population of 1200k. 1/6th of that particular group gets arrested EVERY YEAR.

I'm shocked and relieved you weren't accused of being a racist just for posting those stats.

Re:U.S. prison system is flawed (1)

SpiralSpirit (874918) | more than 2 years ago | (#38557960)

well, I'm not racist personally. I don't think statistics are racist either, although they can sometimes be biased.

But those stats underscore a deep difference between Norway and the US.

In Norway 86% of people are ethnic Norwegians. Only about 5% of the country attends church regularly, but 80% of the country has membership to the church of Norway. That situation doesn't reflect what's going on in the states, especially in highly ghettoized communities that minorities tend to settle in.

social dynamics play a strong role in crime.

head asplode (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38554868)

i find myself completely agreeing and disagreeing at the same time.

there are many problems with the prison system in the US. almost none of them relate to whether or not there are saunas.

Re:U.S. prison system is flawed (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38554898)

Does Norway also have the Mob and gangs that will murder the other prisoners in their sleep? Half the reason for the bars and militarized environment in US prisons is to prevent the gangs from killing each other.

Re:U.S. prison system is flawed (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38555288)

Why exactly do we spend money to keep criminals from killing each other?

That... seems like a cheap solution to a stupid problem.

Let them kill each other and then just kill the winners. It's.... efficient.

Re:U.S. prison system is flawed (1)

man_of_mr_e (217855) | more than 2 years ago | (#38554914)

That sounds pretty nice. Maybe I should fly to Norway and kill someone, so I can go away to this free resort.

In the US, it sounds like this prison would be more comfortable than 20-30% of the populations current living conditions. That's not exactly incentive to stay out of prison.

Norway has some dark mofo's (ask anyone that's seen a norwegian death metal band), but Norway only has a 2% unemployment rate.. so most people are too busy to get in trouble.

Re:U.S. prison system is flawed (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38555374)

That sounds pretty nice. Maybe I should fly to Norway and kill someone, so I can go away to this free resort.

In the US, it sounds like this prison would be more comfortable than 20-30% of the populations current living conditions. That's not exactly incentive to stay out of prison.

Norway has some dark mofo's (ask anyone that's seen a norwegian death metal band), but Norway only has a 2% unemployment rate.. so most people are too busy to get in trouble.

The problem seems to be that the US is a few hundred years behind in social development.

Re:U.S. prison system is flawed (2)

phantomfive (622387) | more than 2 years ago | (#38554918)

If you try to correct their behaviour and reintroduce them to system and proper behavior, they will learn and also stay out of prisons in future.

It is very likely that many Americans don't want that......they want to punish the people who robbed/mugged/murdered//etc them or their family member.

Re:U.S. prison system is flawed (1)

Daniel Phillips (238627) | more than 2 years ago | (#38555208)

The SCADA system isn't flawed...

How do you know that? Is Windows involved?

Re:U.S. prison system is flawed (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38555810)

Hey, them weed smokers are dangerous. Time to ring IBM, Accenture and EDS, a few billion should fix this problem.

some people use the prison system for healthcare (2)

Joe_Dragon (2206452) | more than 2 years ago | (#38556374)

For others it's better then living on the street.

Re:U.S. prison system is flawed (1)

couchslug (175151) | more than 2 years ago | (#38556436)

Norwegian culture isn't US culture. You don't have the untermenschen we mistakenly brought into the country.

What the US needs is permanent, profitable incarceration of violent felons coupled with an end to the War On Some Drugs so we only lock up criminals with actual victims.

Re:U.S. prison system is flawed (1)

fractalspace (1241106) | more than 2 years ago | (#38556536)

The purpose of prisons (in US and elsewhere) is not to correct behavior but to provide tools and facilities to control people. This creates an environment of fear that benefits rulers to enjoy dictatorial powers and still simulating democracy.

Re:U.S. prison system is flawed (1)

amginenigma (1495491) | more than 2 years ago | (#38556814)

You are missing the point, midway through the article and I quote; 'and his punishment was to be sent back to a closed prison.' regardless if it happened to one or one hundred inmates, the only way such rehabilitation can work is if the threat of returning to 'closed' prison exists. If that threat where not viable the inmates would have no reason to rehabilitate themselves.

This is a duplicate from November. (5, Informative)

Animats (122034) | more than 2 years ago | (#38554690)

Covered back in November. [slashdot.org]

Re:This is a duplicate from November. (1)

The123king (2395060) | more than 2 years ago | (#38555224)

It was covered much earlier than that before

Re:This is a duplicate from November. (1)

ShakaUVM (157947) | more than 2 years ago | (#38555766)

Nice to know 2011 isn't over quite yet on Slashdot.

Re:This is a duplicate from November. (2)

ColdWetDog (752185) | more than 2 years ago | (#38556550)

Nice to know 2011 isn't over quite yet on Slashdot.

2011? Slashdot isn't even out of the 20th Century yet!

Take that Unicode!

Re:This is a duplicate from November. (1)

SydShamino (547793) | more than 2 years ago | (#38556008)

This was also covered in Chuck during the last half season.

Re:This is a duplicate from November. (1)

Mannfred (2543170) | more than 2 years ago | (#38556046)

This post does appear to provide some additional information on the issue, and arguably a serious vulnerability deserves all the press it can get. Prisons aren't the only facilities where SCADA tampering could create a risk for the public, so expect a few more "duplicates" in 2012 as researchers audit other installations.

Russian Prisons too (1)

Quick Reply (688867) | more than 2 years ago | (#38554702)

according to Mission Impossible.

Slashdot and SCADA (5, Funny)

93 Escort Wagon (326346) | more than 2 years ago | (#38554730)

Is Slashdot's submission system running on SCADA? I ask because we this "duplicate story" vulnerability keeps popping up.

Re:Slashdot and SCADA (1)

BenJCarter (902199) | more than 2 years ago | (#38554780)

I blame the Human latency problem for the fact that nobody has linked the solution yet...

Re:Slashdot and SCADA (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38554828)

No it's a combination of schizophrenia, OCS, obsessive compulsive, ADHD and tacotoxin caused Alzheimer's and a really bad case of Google fade.

Oh and hurray for early 1990s custom prison controllers. Unless some douche rewires the keypad to a PC running relays for switch closures there is no way in hell my companies PLCs can interface to a scada system.

The prison was too cheap to pay for a custom PC communication card to be designed and they did not want any other sort of PC compatible communication. It's a good system, the first unit to fail was 12 years old and we still had parts to fix it.

Our newer systems don't play well with Wonderware's software because I don't think they could not write a driver if you stuck a gun to their head and threatened 20kvdc to their nuts.

If you get any semens on our controllers they'd most likely die of embarrassment. Though ours might talk to one if it asks nicely.

God is just (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38554732)

I have nanosecond reflexes and can do time travel.

10 i = i + 15
30 IF i > 99999 THEN i = 0: GOTO 10
40 IF INKEY$ = "" THEN 10
50 PRINT "Bible, Line:", i

not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall
recover.

16:19 So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up
into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.

16:20 And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working
with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.

OMFG (2)

Osgeld (1900440) | more than 2 years ago | (#38554752)

Flip digital switches with electronics, the apocalypse is near!

thanks for the FUD slashdot, could you not fucking dupe it next time?

http://it.slashdot.org/story/11/11/08/0136230/vulnerabilities-discovered-in-prison-scada-systems [slashdot.org]

Cripes half the wikipedia article is based on this

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SCADA#Security_issues [wikipedia.org]

And yet its still probably simpler to hold a guard at knife-point with a toothbrush handle filed down on the concrete floors

why on earth (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38554788)

would these systems even be accessible from the internet in any way shape or form? are government IT and contractors that friggin stupid?

Re:why on earth (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38554800)

Didn't you see MI4? How else are the good hacker guys going to break Tom Cruise out of jail when the need arises?

(Or perhaps it is just a case of overzealous ERTW.)

Re:why on earth (1)

AHuxley (892839) | more than 2 years ago | (#38554858)

Just watching their investors cash.
Why have expensive, tech trained local "union" staff on site when you can a few remote experts to watch over aspects of your state wide prison IT system.
Why hire so many expensive state accredited IT staff when you can log in a few - over weekends, nights - to solve issues, updates.
It also locks down the contractors systems - no locals can sit around working out a new system - a low bid is paid for by a long term cash stream for remote 'support'.

Re:why on earth (1)

EmagGeek (574360) | more than 2 years ago | (#38555724)

I guess the Guards need to have their access to Facebook and Angry Birds.

how old are they? and when there they installed? (1)

Joe_Dragon (2206452) | more than 2 years ago | (#38556538)

Older prisons had a lot of big lever or EM based systems for opening doors and they where not setup in way for the people at the controls to see where the doors are.

But let's a the basic level at the alot of the SCADA boards hookup up to the cells are likely real basic more so in older prisons just some kind of network hook up + switches + relays or SCR hooked to them. Now say you run that to a center control room then you have a network there. Now let's say you want to run camera feeds to same control room now you can put them on the network as well.

Also on some older lockup / inside prison shows I say some systems running what looked like windows 3.1 or NT 3 now how old is that hardware anyways?

Now let's say the internet / out side network came at a later time and some just put it on the same network to save costs. You need the outside network for stuff like looking up inmate records / doing paper work / the inmate e-mail systems. Now a lot of stuff in prisons in from 3rd party venders and with 3rd party venders they want there own hardware with there own outside / remote techs.

HAL should run the prisions (2)

NSN A392-99-964-5927 (1559367) | more than 2 years ago | (#38554876)

That's right HAL should run the prisons in the USA and also look after the Prison Guards.

Don't care. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38554908)

Wake me when they find an exploit that allows them to just kill all the criminals.
So we can stop paying to keep them locked up forever.

I went to this talk and it was stupid (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38554922)

I went to this talk at CCC's 28c3. First of all the talk was horrible, the vulnerability stupid, and the speaker is an attention wh**** that doesnt understand hacking. This is a non event.

Don't worry! (1)

martin-boundary (547041) | more than 2 years ago | (#38554924)

Due to budget downsizing and the retirement of high tech incarceration facilities, American prisoners will henceforth be housed in Russian gulags, where door locking vulnerabilities do not matter, since the main security algorithm depends only on thousands of kilometres of snow and ice...

God is just (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38554944)

God says...
C:\LoseThos\www.losethos.com\text\PLATO.TXT

al virtues.
In the eighth and ninth books (4) the perversions of States and of
the individuals who correspond to them are reviewed in succession;
and the nature of pleasure and the principle of tyranny are
further analyzed in the individual man. The tenth book (5) is
the conclusion of the whole, in which the relations of philosophy
to poetry are finally determined, and the happiness of the citizens
in this life, which has now been assured, is crowned by the vision
of another.

Or a more general

old news (0)

pbjones (315127) | more than 2 years ago | (#38554962)

wasn't this report a couple of months ago???

They are in prison because THEY BROKE THE LAW (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38555246)

People in American prisons BROKE THE LAW and if you break the law you committed a crime, so you do the time. If you don't like the US prison system then DON'T BREAK THE LAW! Prisoners are getting what they deserve. What don't you jelly-spined liberals not get? Remember, our country is run by the rule of law so if you don't like it get out and find some pussy-ass Europeeon country to live in that will cater to your candy-assed socialist demands. I guarantee that three years you will WISH that you had never left American freedom behind. See how long your pussy little asses will last in a place where you can end up in prison for the "crime" of possessing an "unlicensed" television set, radio or computer or cellphone.

Re:They are in prison because THEY BROKE THE LAW (1)

Anne Thwacks (531696) | more than 2 years ago | (#38555424)

Say that again when you are ten yars older.

Now get off my lawn

Re:They are in prison because THEY BROKE THE LAW (1)

Mashiki (184564) | more than 2 years ago | (#38557422)

If you feel that the system is that flawed, then run for office and get the system changed.

Re:They are in prison because THEY BROKE THE LAW (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38555444)

You should post as Anonymous Retard!

PLU/S 1, TROLL) (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38555530)

accounts For lhess

Quick question... (1)

EmagGeek (574360) | more than 2 years ago | (#38555716)

Why exactly are prison door control systems connected to the Internet anyway?

Re:Quick question... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38555862)

DUH! Who wants to actually be there when they let everyone out?

Re:Quick question... (1)

trparky (846769) | more than 2 years ago | (#38555950)

I was going to ask that question too. There's no reason why systems such as that need to be connected to the Internet, none what so ever.

I was in prison (5, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38555994)

Let me tell you something here. I just got out of a state prison in the US 2 months ago. I served 10 years (and yes I have a /. account, my old pre-prison one is here to but I don't remember the password, I am not going to suffer the flaming rantings of trolls to my account so I am posting this AC).

I did the crime. Did I deserve punishment for what I did? Definitely, I hurt a lot of people through my actions, not just my victim. However, while I cannot speak for the system in other countries, the system here is very flawed. It gives lip service to rehabilitation, but does very little to actually produce it. In my experience, most of the teachers and counselors in prison are there for two reasons. One, they could not hold a real teaching or counseling job because they were incompetent, lazy, or both. Two, the prison system gives them a place where they can sit, collect great benefits and have inmates do most of the work. I tutored in a Software class for 7 years while I was inside and the the teacher could not even be bothered to learn windows XP (her mind was stuck on DOS and didn't know that well). She was well meaning, but also ignorant and clueless. There are exceptions to this, but it is largely the rule.

The system is hugely exploitative. In the Virginia system you have Virginia Correctional Enterprises. In the Feds you have FPI, and other states have similar programs. They pay more than any other job in prison (I made .45c /hr as a tutor and that was the highest non industry pay available). They still only pay at most $2.00/hr or so. Now, I know the state is housing, feeding, and guarding you but if you work in industry, you will make uniforms, or furniture, or other things that a PRIVATE COMPANY is making millions on, and you don't have enough to send home or pay child support. Oh, yeah in VA they can garnish a $50/month paycheck for child support while you are incarcerated.

The system is corrupt. I am not just talking about low level corruption of correctional officers accepting bribes or smuggling contraband, which havens daily. But on and up to the top. From administrative staff skimming commissary funds to hold officer parties, to buying equipment for a band room on state funds, never opening the band room then selling the equipment. I saw the latter one happen myself. Hell in VA the state code gives the director of DOC the permission to take bribes and kickbacks! [virginia.gov]

5. To accept, hold and enjoy gifts, donations and bequests on behalf of the Department from the United States government and agencies and instrumentalities thereof, and any other source, subject to the approval of the Governor. To these ends, the Director shall have the power to comply with such conditions and execute such agreements as may be necessary, convenient or desirable, consistent with applicable standards and goals of the Board;

I have to give a view (somewhat) from the other side as well. I have seen posts recommending separating the 'bad' criminals from the ones who can be rehabilitated. How do you propose to do that? Based on the crime? Their behavior while imprisoned? I spent ten years inside and there are people who are so good at gaming and manipulating ANY system it would make your jaw drop. I personally am not good at manipulating people and don't want to be, but in order to survive there were many times I had to bend and break the rules. For me, it was making my own soldering gun and tools and collecting contraband parts to repair other inmates electronics. (Most people don't want to fuck with the guy who can fix their TV for them cheaply when it breaks). For others it might be stealing supplies or running a gambling pool. Finding the right way to classify and group prisoners is an exceedingly difficult prospect, and to be quite frank, most of the staff and administration at these facilities (at least in my experience) are to ignorant, lazy, and/or unprofessional to care. They may know that over 90% of prisoners will one day be released, and it would be better for society to have them prepared rather than go back to the life they knew (dealing, stealing or whatever it was), but with few exceptions they hardly even try.

When I was released in November, I was taken to my Probation officer, given a check for ~$175 and told good luck. Most of that money I had saved myself, as if I hadn't I would have had $25. No help with finding housing or employment. I have a roof, thanks to money loaned to my by my mother who lives overseas and is struggling herself, but that won't last long. So now I spend every day looking for jobs, reading /., and making pennies on Amazon's Mechanical Turk.

So, spare me your over conservative lock up the prisoners mentality, and your liberal, we gotta help these guys feelings, because just like most other aspects of our society and government, it is broken, a sham from both sides, and there is no easy or likely way to fix it.

Okay everyone, flame on! P.S. Yes I posted through a proxy so admins can't tie my IP from this post to my regular account.

Re:I was in prison (3)

kermidge (2221646) | more than 2 years ago | (#38557452)

Flame? For what - telling the truth?

Nah, you nailed it, man.

Re:I was in prison (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38557662)

I made .45c /hr

I'm going to take a wild guess and assume you meant .45 dollar per hour, or 45 cent per hour (.45c being 0.0045 dollar, and thus almost nothing).

Re:I was in prison (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38558064)

I'm going to take a wild guess and assume you're an aspie.

alyce (1)

Ms. Alyce (2488826) | more than 2 years ago | (#38556148)

But we really don't know if it's flawed or not until something really happen now do we? http://www.alycesshoppingmall.com/ [alycesshoppingmall.com]

To meny peopel in prsion for drug offenses (1)

Joe_Dragon (2206452) | more than 2 years ago | (#38556394)

For most people in for drug offenses there are much better and cheaper way to deal with them and it free up room for people like rapists and child abuses to do some hard time.

terry childs should be free but he pissed off city (1)

Joe_Dragon (2206452) | more than 2 years ago | (#38556422)

For what he did should not lead to jail or prison but as he pissed off a city they throw the book at him and the city is the one that took a job dispute up to that level.

Oh Noes! (1)

kelemvor4 (1980226) | more than 2 years ago | (#38556674)

Think of all the potheads we'd have roaming the streets! It would be chaos, I tell you!
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