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Facebook Helps Give Hacking a Good Name Again

Soulskill posted more than 2 years ago | from the that's-our-word dept.

Programming 52

Hugh Pickens writes "Ira Winkler says whenever he sees another 'cyberchallenge' getting play in the press, he think our priorities are screwed up. 'People seem to think that organizing teams of people to hack into systems is a way to bring together the best computer talent to square off against each other,' writes Winkler. 'I look at it as a waste of that talent.' That's why Winkler supports Facebook's latest Hacker Cup, which has become one of the few tests of creative computer talent. Facebook is using the original definition of 'hacker,' referring not to someone who breaks into computer systems, but rather to an individual who 'enjoys exploring the details of programmable systems and how to stretch their capabilities.' Facebook's contest consists of successive sets of increasingly difficult algorithmic problems. Scoring will be based on how accurately and quickly the programmers complete the puzzles. 'Meanwhile, the media effectively lionize groups like Anonymous by breathlessly reporting on their latest hacks,' writes Winkler. 'What we really should be doing is not to reward a handful of students to find problems, but to train all students, and inevitably the profession, to integrate security into their efforts from the start.'"

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Question... (1, Offtopic)

jcreus (2547928) | more than 2 years ago | (#38662412)

Why in red?

Re:Question... (1)

jcreus (2547928) | more than 2 years ago | (#38662432)

Clarifying, it was in red on the first page. Now it's not. Can anyone explain me this? Thanks.

Re:Question... (3, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38662524)

If you are signed in and seeing it before it posts to the front page for every else that doesn't have an account or signed in, you will see it in red. It will also say as a time "Mysteriously in the future".


Re:Question... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38662532)

I asked this before and was told it's something to do with 0 comments, although i've seen articles with 0 comments which are green.

Re:Question... (1)

mcgrew (92797) | more than 2 years ago | (#38663000)

The ones in red are ones not everyone can see yet. If you're a subscriber, you see stories before they're posted for everyone, giving you a chance to RTFA first. If you see a first post that isn't a joke or a troll, it was probably posted by a subscriber. I'm guessing they posted it seconds before you hit the link, or you wouldn't have been able to comment.

Media Priorities (1)

schitso (2541028) | more than 2 years ago | (#38662462)

What makes for a more interesting story: script kiddies taking down a CIA webpage, or some computer geeks getting together to see who the best geek is?
I know what I think is the more interesting story, but I'm sure common folk would disagree.

Re:Media Priorities (1)

tnk1 (899206) | more than 2 years ago | (#38663054)

People care about what affects things they either are experiencing or they at least know something about. While a best geek contest would interest me (depending on what the competition was, of course), it may as well be a contest between stamp collectors for anyone outside those familiar with hacking/geek culture.

Re:Media Priorities (1)

justforgetme (1814588) | more than 2 years ago | (#38671564)

This, plus the fact that scare headlines like HACKERS pwn teh Facebooks, the world as we know it is collapsing, we are all DOOMED tend to draw exponentially more attention than any alternative (albeit true) story.

HBGary? (4, Informative)

jginspace (678908) | more than 2 years ago | (#38662478)

Meanwhile, the media effectively lionize groups like Anonymous by breathlessly reporting on their latest hacks,' writes Winkler.

Well you've got to admit the HBGary hack, as reported by arstechnica [] , was pretty damn cool.

HBGary = pack of troll assholes (2, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38662598)

They're no better than the "Chinese Water Army" shitheads, & are there to mislead/misinform others and to attack those who do not "play their game/are with THEIR program".

Don't believe it? Read this: []


"According to an embedded MS Word document found in one of the HBGary emails, it involves creating an army of sockpuppets, with sophisticated "persona management" software that allows a small team of only a few people to appear to be many, while keeping the personas from accidentally cross-contaminating each other. Then, to top it off, the team can actually automate some functions so one persona can appear to be an entire Brooks Brothers riot online... And all of this is for the purposes of infiltration, data mining, and (here's the one that really worries me) ganging up on bloggers, commenters and otherwise "real" people to smear enemies and distort the truth... "


"They are talking about creating the illusion of consensus. And consensus is a powerful persuader... And another thing, this is just one little company of assholes. I can't believe there aren't others doing this already. From oil companies, political campaigns, PR firms, you name it. Public opinion means big bucks. And let's face it, what these guys are talking about is easy."


"To the extent that the propaganda technique known as "Bandwagon" is an effective form of persuasion, which it definitely is, the ability for a few people to infiltrate a blog or social media site and appear to be many people, all taking one position in a debate, all agreeing, for example, that so and so is not credible, or a crook, is an incredibly powerful weapon."


* They're out & out PIECES OF DECEIVING SHIT!


P.S.=> They represent EXACTLY the type of people in this life I utterly FUCKING hate (& I am not "pulling any punches" on this one) - I call that "type" online "the NOT-men" (because they act more like WOMEN, than men, or @ least decent honorable men)...

... apk

Re:HBGary? (1)

elrous0 (869638) | more than 2 years ago | (#38663526)

That was one of the coolest hacks since that Lightman kid almost started WWIII back in the 80's.

Bad Timing (2)

Robadob (1800074) | more than 2 years ago | (#38662502)

This seems like bad timing for me/other uk students. Most of us are going to be having exams during the period which it is set, e.g. the qualification round is 20th-23rd of January, and then i have 2 exams on the 24th and 26th of January so it looks like i won't be signing up for this.

Re:Bad Timing (1)

jginspace (678908) | more than 2 years ago | (#38662868)

This seems like bad timing for me/other uk students. Most of us are going to be having exams during the period which it is set, e.g. the qualification round is 20th-23rd of January, and then i have 2 exams on the 24th and 26th of January so it looks like i won't be signing up for this.

You Brits have got the GCHQ contest [] - you lucky buggers!

original meaning (1, Offtopic)

eexaa (1252378) | more than 2 years ago | (#38662548)

I always thought hackers made furniture using an axe. What is this computer stuff anyway?

Re:original meaning (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38662564)

And I always thought people breaking into computers we're called crackers.
Go figure.

Re:original meaning (1)

GuldKalle (1065310) | more than 2 years ago | (#38662662)

I always thought "crackers" referred to people removing DRM protection from software.
inb4 biscuit joke

Re:original meaning (4, Funny)

elrous0 (869638) | more than 2 years ago | (#38663554)

I always thought crackers was a derogatory term for white people.

Re:original meaning (1)

Creepy (93888) | more than 2 years ago | (#38664066)

heh - I was going to say that.

cracker: pejorative term for white people, particularly southerners (US)
hacker: a really bad golfer, not to be mistaken for duffer, which is just a not very good golfer (or pool/billiards player)

Last time I golfed I got a 203 on a par 71, and if it weren't for a 12 max (so 216 would be the worst score I could score on 18 holes), it would have been a bit worse, especially for the 4x I hit the lake on a par 5. I wear my hacker badge proudly (hey, I've gone golfing 3 times in 20 years and never had a lesson, so I have an excuse for sucking at it).

Re:original meaning (1)

GuldKalle (1065310) | more than 2 years ago | (#38665106)

So when you golfed before that, what was your score then?

Re:original meaning (2)

sycodon (149926) | more than 2 years ago | (#38663738)

Since I started in computing in 1980, I can't remember when the term Hacker meant anything other than someone taking something and "hacking" or, making changes, to something so that it performed its original function differently or performed an entirely new function. Almost always these were done with illicit intentions.

Ask any non-computer person who writes the stuff that breaks their computer, steals their data and/or money and they'll say "Hacker".

I'm afraid Hacker will always be associated with people that most folks would like to see in jail or simply shot in the face.

They need to find a new name.

We've done this before. (5, Insightful)

lightknight (213164) | more than 2 years ago | (#38662608)

We've done this before -> the best h@x0r$ aren't the people beating their chests, sporting security credentials, hanging out at DefCom, taking down websites, or playing '5 minutes in heaven' with the 3-letter agency people. And they typically aren't the people who have an entire bookshelf devoted to books that actually mention hacking / cracking in the title. The dangerous people are the ones who have the dog-eared copy of Fundamentals of UNIX Programming sitting on their desk; they aren't using the hack of the week, or someone else's 0-day to compromise a system -> they know how the system actually works, all of its strengths and weaknesses. It's like the difference between some poor slob who bought a gun and keeps it in the front part of his jeans, and a trained Marine with his trusty hunting rifle.

Programmers themselves can be scored in several different categories, and it often takes a weird grouping off them to pull off anything outstanding. Knowledge of computing, theory of computing, theory of application, pragmatic programming, knowledge of the programming language / linguistics, mathematics, advanced problem solving, advanced research, imaginary problem solving, and lore of computing. I may have missed a few. Good luck getting all 10s in every category.

Security, by the way, is taught; it's simply not emphasized to the exclusion of other subjects. Most CS students know where the security holes, the major ones, can occur when it comes to programming. However, it's simply not cost-effective to chase down every last security issue (it could take years to release a product).

Re:We've done this before. (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38662760)

I call BS. Most CS students DO NOT know where the "major ones" are. It is thought processes like this that lead to compromised systems in the first place.

As for the "cost-effective" argument, tell that to HBGary, or Sony, or any one of the hundreds of businesses that no longer exist. Tell that to the businesses that won't exist 2 years from now, and will never even know why. The really good compromises aren't detected, or if they are, are interpreted as minor ones.

Re:We've done this before. (2)

lightknight (213164) | more than 2 years ago | (#38663434)

Yes, they typically do. It usually starts and ends with, "You know what, I think I will program this next application, I think I'll use C / C++ / PHP / MySQL." ;-)
They learn about buffer overflows the first time they make getline / cin / (it's been a while) choke or die on some input, they learn all about SQL injection attacks when one of their webpages forgets to escape hyphens before running a query, and they learn the value of username / password security the first time they accidentally leave their username / password embedded in some code they're editing in a terminal / SSH session on their laptop, in a public place, when they run to use the bathroom. That plus many of the things that make the compiler throw warnings / errors covers 50% of the security concerns a programmer will run into.

As for security, I said it's not cost-effective to chase down "every last security issue"; it's not, as no matter which OS you might be using, there is a library it's linking to that somewhere will cause a bug which will cause your program to collapse / grant elevated security privileges. If you believe you are running an OS that cannot be cracked / that is secure, feel free to post your IP address to some of the more interesting forums on the internet; with a minimal install, it might take them a week or so to crack; with a full install, and a fair number of normal services running, it might take several minutes.

Sony, in this case, didn't just "not track down every last issue." It didn't track down / patch any of them, preferring security through obscurity (and firing their security team a week before everything collapsed, for good measure). And they are still in business...

Re:We've done this before. (1, Troll)

Phreakiture (547094) | more than 2 years ago | (#38664854)

If you believe you are running an OS that cannot be cracked / that is secure, feel free to post your IP address to some of the more interesting forums on the internet; with a minimal install, it might take them a week or so to crack; with a full install, and a fair number of normal services running, it might take several minutes.

Well, I'd say /. is one of the "more interesting forums on the internet" so here you go: Have at it. I dare you.

Re:We've done this before. (1)

lightknight (213164) | more than 2 years ago | (#38670450)

Dude, there is tons of porn and movies at that IP address you gave me.

And as it just so happens, they also use my username / password for the login credentials. Keanu Reeves -> Whoa!

Re:We've done this before. (1)

Phreakiture (547094) | more than 2 years ago | (#38672196)

Well, apparently you get the joke. Whoever modded me "Troll" didn't.

Contests (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38662620)

When my choices are to waste my time unjustifiably boosting someone else's security reputation for free, or being crowdsourced and providing one of many solutions, each of which would cost more than even the sole winner receives, I prefer to do neither. Contests are bullshit. If you participate in contests, you show that you'd rather work for free than not work at all. That's not a good negotiating position to be in.

facebook has great mathematicians. (0)

leaen (987954) | more than 2 years ago | (#38662762)

pairwise, using rules 1 and 3. 3. Two floating point numbers are considered equal if their absolute or relative difference is smaller than 1e-6, unless the problem statement says otherwise. This does not apply to integers. Two integers are considered equal only when they are exactly equal.

Examples? (1)

taiwanjohn (103839) | more than 2 years ago | (#38662802)

The announcement page has a link to the problems from last year's qualification round [] , but that leads to a sign-up page for the contest. I'm curious to see the problems, but not planning to compete. Can someone who's already signed up post them here, and save the rest of us some time? Cheers.

Re:Examples? (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38663198)

Double Squares

A double-square number is an integer X which can be expressed as the sum of two perfect squares. For example, 10 is a double-square because 10 = 3^2 + 1^2. Your task in this problem is, given X, determine the number of ways in which it can be written as the sum of two squares. For example, 10 can only be written as 3^2 + 1^2 (we don't count 1^2 + 3^2 as being different). On the other hand, 25 can be written as 5^2 + 0^2 or as 4^2 + 3^2.

You should first read an integer N, the number of test cases. The next N lines will contain N values of X.
0 X 2147483647
1 N 100
For each value of X, you should output the number of ways to write X as the sum of two squares.

Example Input

Example Output

Re:Examples? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38663270)

Peg Game

At the arcade, you can play a simple game where a ball is dropped into the top of the game, from a position of your choosing. There are a number of pegs that the ball will bounce off of as it drops through the game. Whenever the ball hits a peg, it will bounce to the left with probability 0.5 and to the right with probability 0.5. The one exception to this is when it hits a peg on the far left or right side, in which case it always bounces towards the middle.

When the game was first made, the pegs where arranged in a regular grid. However, it's an old game, and now some of the pegs are missing. Your goal in the game is to get the ball to fall out of the bottom of the game in a specific location. Your task is, given the arrangement of the game, to determine the optimal place to drop the ball, such that the probability of getting it to this specific location is maximized.

The image below shows an example of a game with five rows of five columns. Notice that the top row has five pegs, the next row has four pegs, the next five, and so on. With five columns, there are four choices to drop the ball into (indexed from 0). Note that in this example, there are three pegs missing. The top row is row 0, and the leftmost peg is column 0, so the coordinates of the missing pegs are (1,1), (2,1) and (3,2). In this example, the best place to drop the ball is on the far left, in column 0, which gives a 50% chance that it will end in the goal.

'x' indicates a peg, '.' indicates empty space.
You should first read an integer N, the number of test cases. Each of the next N lines will then contain a single test case. Each test case will start with integers R and C, the number of rows and columns (R will be odd). Next, an integer K will specify the target column. Finally, an integer M will be followed by M pairs of integer ri and ci, giving the locations of the missing pegs.
1 N 100
3 R,C 100
The top and bottom rows will not have any missing pegs.
Other parameters will all be valid, given R and C
For each test case, you should output an integer, the location to drop the ball into, followed by the probability that the ball will end in columns K, formatted with exactly six digits after the decimal point (round the last digit, don't truncate).
The input will be designed such that minor rounding errors will not impact the output (i.e. there will be no ties or near -- up to 1E-9 -- ties, and the direction of rounding for the output will not be impacted by small errors).

example input
5 4 0 1 2 2
3 4 1 1 1 1
3 3 1 2 1 1 1 0
3 4 0 2 1 0 1 1
3 4 0 1 1 1

example output
0 0.375000
1 1.000000
0 1.000000
0 0.500000

Re:Examples? (1)

TequilaMonster (321655) | more than 2 years ago | (#38663330)

You've been given a list of words to study and memorize. Being a diligent student of language and the arts, you've decided to not study them at all and instead make up pointless games based on them. One game you've come up with is to see how you can concatenate the words to generate the lexicographically lowest possible string.

As input for playing this game you will receive a text file containing an integer N, the number of word sets you need to play your game against. This will be followed by N word sets, each starting with an integer M, the number of words in the set, followed by M words. All tokens in the input will be separated by some whitespace and, aside from N and M, will consist entirely of lowercase letters.

Your submission should contain the lexicographically shortest strings for each corresponding word set, one per line and in order.

1 = N = 100
1 = M = 9
1 = all word lengths = 10

Example Input
6 facebook hacker cup for studious students
5 k duz q rc lvraw
5 mybea zdr yubx xe dyroiy
5 jibw ji jp bw jibw
5 uiuy hopji li j dcyi

Example Output
cupfacebookfor hackerstudentsstudious
dyroiymy beaxeyubxzdr

(Please remove spaces from example outputs. slashdot filters ftl)

Re:Examples? (1)

taiwanjohn (103839) | more than 2 years ago | (#38663628)

Very interesting. Thanks!

Old folks definitions (2)

sgt scrub (869860) | more than 2 years ago | (#38663036)

Hacking: Using your capabilities to gain access and explore an unknown programmable system.

Cracking: Using knowledge of existing tools and systems to gain access and exploit a known programmable system.

Re:Old folks definitions (2)

_0x783czar (2516522) | more than 2 years ago | (#38663302)

I'd say that's a fair way to define it. It seems that our culture is beginning to label anything a hack these days, even accessing someone's Facebook when they're not looking.

Re:Old folks definitions (1)

AthanasiusKircher (1333179) | more than 2 years ago | (#38663514)

Hacking: Using your capabilities to gain access and explore an unknown programmable system.

Actually, for old-timers (and many still at MIT), hacking can imply getting access and exploring just about any kind of system, even gaining physical access and exploring. (Hence, the "hacks" at MIT which have involve placing objects in inaccessible places, etc., which comes from a culture of "hacking" (i.e., exploring) the rooftops, basement tunnels, and other parts of MIT campus.)

But "hacking" in the early days did seem to be associated with certain types of electronic systems, notably telephones and the MIT model railroad club.

In any case, it should be noted that a negative connotation could apparently be attached to the word even in its earliest usages. One of the earliest known citation of the word in print (from the MIT newspaper) from the early 1960s actually refers to disruptive hacking of phone systems: []

Re:Old folks definitions (1)

AthanasiusKircher (1333179) | more than 2 years ago | (#38663662)

Actually, here's a good overview of the origin at MIT, from someone who was writing about it in the mid-80s, when "hacker" first had gained significant media currency in the negative sense: []

A ``hacker'' is... someone who never goes to class, who in fact sleeps all day, and who spends the night pursuing recreational activities rather than studying.

What does this have to do with computers? Originally, nothing. But there are standards for success as a hacker, just as grades form a standard for success as a tool. The true hacker can't just sit around all night; he must pursue some hobby with dedication and flair. It can be telephones, or railroads (model, real, or both), or science fiction fandom, or ham radio, or broadcast radio. It can be more than one of these. Or it can be computers.

Oh no, it's Hugh... (1)

g051051 (71145) | more than 2 years ago | (#38663184)

I'm sick of this Hugh Pickens spammer being constantly posted on Slashdot with the lamest of lame stories. How much is he paying them for all this air time? Or is it a straight up blackmail operation? No wonder CmdrTaco left.

Re:Oh no, it's Hugh... (1)

jginspace (678908) | more than 2 years ago | (#38663428)

Hugh Pickens: 9 this week from 18 submissions

Hugh Pickens: 34 this month from 59 submissions

theodp: 18 this month from 31 submissions

smitty777: 18 this month from [less than 32] submissions

Old School Hacks FTW (2)

_0x783czar (2516522) | more than 2 years ago | (#38663364)

I'm glad to see Facebook promoting creative computer exploration. I think that the true spirit of hacking is being lost in the new definitions of our modern society. Anonymous and LulzSec make headlines for DDOS attacks which don't really count as hacking. The great hacks these days are often made without fanfare when a Hacker exploits a system or piece of code with his natural creativity, and it is often for positive rather than negative ends.

Re:Old School Hacks FTW (1)

rta (559125) | more than 2 years ago | (#38665034)

I'd be much more impressed if Facebook actually got their own house in order. Every programmer who writes a 3rd party app for facebook is a hacker because that's what it takes to get something to work and keep working on there. Their platform is terribly documented with documentation that isn't just incomplete but actually wrong and misleading. They change stuff randomly without any announcement. They regularly break things with their weekly updates. They take weeks and months to acknowledge bugs and then take months and years to fix them.

As a biz person, i can understand why people deal with FB (ooh eyeballs!), but as a developer it's just a bad experience.

Re:Old School Hacks FTW (1)

_0x783czar (2516522) | more than 2 years ago | (#38665914)

You make a fair point. Facebook is not really my favorite company, but at least this is a nice move. However unimportant it might be. But yes... Facebook has serious issues to work through.

Suspicious... (1)

kubernet3s (1954672) | more than 2 years ago | (#38663448)

I'm not sure exactly why Mr. Winkler thinks computer security is a waste of computer talent, but that solving social media programming puzzles is not. While I'm not enough of an expert to see how algorithmic programming challenges relate to security, it seems to me that probing existing security systems (which, as far as I know, is an accepted and common practice, from which a lot of good can be derived) is more directly important than what is essentially a competitive Project Euler. However, it is understandable that, being a former security professional, Winkler might be the sort of person who believes the proliferation of security penetration techniques and training leads to the proliferation of security penetration itself, and advocates children getting rough on the playground rather than near the power station. In short, he wants an environment where the only people with the knowledge to disable systems are the architects of that system itself: if the door is locked, you should leave it alone. Given that he is advocating for a competition sponsored by Facebook, who has a vested interest in maintaining the illusion that their information structures are impenetrable monoliths, I'd say this is likely. His aversion to security testing is more a product of his old-guard nervousness about the volatility of information than to any real insight into why security testing is bad for computing as a whole.

Hacker/cracker/whitehat/blackhat wankery aside, security is an important aspect of computer networking, and it's important that the risks to a network be a part of programming as a whole. If it's confined to the domain of locksmiths and lockpickers, then information becomes easily monopolizable, and that way lies ruin.

To quote clearks two: (1)

orphiuchus (1146483) | more than 2 years ago | (#38663796)

We're taking it back!

And just like "Porch Monkeys", the idea that someone would be so attached to using "Hacker" as a positive is hilariously absurd.

Re:To quote clearks two: (1)

orphiuchus (1146483) | more than 2 years ago | (#38663810)

Oh god damnit.

Clerks 2.

Clearks two isn't anything. And now my post looks dumb. Great.

Yeah... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38664342)

Facebook is using the term "hacker" in the other traditional sense - to scout talent to help them milk the plebs for more of their personal data so they can sell it to the highest bidder. Fuck you, facebook.

Why not adapt our vocabulary? (1)

sirgorthon (1113147) | more than 2 years ago | (#38664358)

I think the frustration over hacking/cracking would be quickly resolved if hackers adopted the label tinkerers (or e-tinkerers or something a little catchier) and let the uninitiated have their way. It's important for technical vocabulary to be pretty rigidly defined, but hacking has migrated a bit towards everyday vocabulary. Since computers have completed the one-time move from obscure to common, I don't think this concession would need to be repeated with "tinkerers." My grandmother would complain about "how the gays took our word and made it something else," and I'm failing to see how that doesn't parallel people's reaction to the misuse of "hacking."

That's not hacking... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38664672)

Bah! Tackling algorithmic problems isn't hacking.

Counter-productive to hacking's image (1)

bhartman34 (886109) | more than 2 years ago | (#38665494)

How is associating themselves with Facebook supposed to give anyone a good name?

Hacking (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38666488)

Hacking can be a good thing, if it is used right. Some people should continue hacking, if they tone their skills, than they can put it to great use in the future.

Bull (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38667346)

"but to train all students, and inevitably the profession, to integrate security into their efforts from the start"
Really they don't get that yet.

Looks more like employment test to me.

hack man (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38753486)

security audit of your website(s) HACKING OF WEBSITES & Hacking Accounts which include facebook,twitter this is pretty easy,myspace,skype,and email ids.I require either a Name, Friend ID, or E-mail address of the targets account(s). I have the help of a current 0-Day Exploit that allows me to gain remote access to the website servers and from there I find the password which is usually in an MD5 hash, from that I must decrypt to get the real password. The entire process takes about 30 minutes-1 hour to complete. All passwords are tested out 3 times before they get issued to any clients.I also rip Standards from websites.I accept payment through LR (Liberty Reserve) Only.I hardly ever USE WESTERN UNION!
YOU CAN REACH ME ON (SEND ME AN IM THROUGH Y! MESSENGER OR MAIL)i also sell bank logins and credit cards

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