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How SOPA & PIPA Could Hurt Scientific Debate

timothy posted more than 2 years ago | from the debate-is-overrated-certainty-is-better dept.

Censorship 100

mwolfam writes with this pointed excerpt from a piece at the Huffington Post by Los Alamos National Laboratories post-doc researcher Michael Ham, who makes a slightly different case than most for the reasons that SOPA and PIPA should be stopped: "Simply put, The Stop Online Piracy Act (SOPA) and the Protect IP Act (PIPA) currently under development in Congress will provide a rapid way to sentence websites to death without the need for pesky things like trials and juries. Much to the surprise of nobody who understands how the Internet works, these two Acts will have absolutely no effect on digital piracy, but they will create an environment where freedom of speech could be severely curtailed, large companies can execute competitors, and scientific data can be hidden from the public."

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I see an explosion in European web-hosting (5, Insightful)

buglista (1967502) | more than 2 years ago | (#38696436)

Thanks muchly, our economy needs a bit of a boost right now.

Re:I see an explosion in European web-hosting (5, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38696632)

I think you forgot ACTA. SOPA and PIPA are just the US instances of the ACTA virus.
They expect the EU (and actually the whole world) to have them too. If not... well you saw how they managed to get a UK citizen extradited to the use over this shit, and how they got Spain, Finland and Belgium already infected.

Of course they will never manage to reach their goal. Since that is physically impossible. (Unless they put DRM chips in every human's head, we can still e.g. have one person read the information, tell it to somebody else, who then types it in.)
And of course we will still not be affected in the slightest, since we already have countries that have such total censorship (China, UAE, etc), and they use VPNs at $5 a month to circumvent *everything*. (Hell, there are cops who will pay you to tell them how to get porn. They are humans too, and if it's about porn, their side is clear. ^^)

So they have no chance of ever succeeding.

But for the cattle majority, they don't have to. Since those are passive life-forms. Who don't have their own perception of reality, but instead get it from their opinion makers. So all that is needed, is for the dumb masses to believe the lies and delusions, and they will have control over most. (Some say: Unless the masses feel the need for porn. Then the revolution will start. ;)
Same as those people in North Korea, who honestly believe that when they touch an American flag, their hands will rot off. (Remember the Daily Show interview about the guy who gets people out of NK.)

It's all about assumed reality nowadays. Not actually sensed reality.

And the problem is, that apparently, we, the good people, are not secure in ourselves to get the masses' perception to change. Maybe because other than the media industry, we don't live off of cocaine. (I've worked in the EU music industry, and I swear on my dick and my mothers' life, that there is no such thing as a business deal without cocaine and preferably hookers and booze in there. It's an old boys network on drugs.)

So let's kick the Dunning Kruger effect [wikipedia.org] 's ass, and fix the mindset of the masses!

Re:I see an explosion in European web-hosting (4, Insightful)

Demonoid-Penguin (1669014) | more than 2 years ago | (#38696690)

I think you forgot ACTA. SOPA and PIPA are just the US instances of the ACTA virus. They expect the EU (and actually the whole world) to have them too.

Yes they do [cablegatesearch.net] . Sadly.

Just like they expected EU and the rest of the world to either look the other way or join them in their other wars.

Re:I see an explosion in European web-hosting (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38696726)

This got +5 Insightful? You stupid libertarian dipshits don't even know what SOPA is, do you?

SOPA offers nothing new EXCEPT WAYS TO DEAL WITH OVERSEAS COPYRIGHT VIOLATORS.

Christ, you people will believe anything, won't you? That's why you're code monkeys. Go write some code.

Re:I see an explosion in European web-hosting (4, Informative)

andydread (758754) | more than 2 years ago | (#38697980)

By blocking our access to overseas information? Sounds like China. No thanks no fucking thanks. You media people are simply pissed off that people don't want your fucking content any more. You see the Internet as a threat to your control of content. When people are watching Youtube and using Google and Facebook they are not going to the movie theatre or purchasing your shitty content.

Re:I see an explosion in European web-hosting (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38703844)

Can't tell if you've been paid off or brainwashed.

Re:I see an explosion in European web-hosting (1)

khipu (2511498) | more than 2 years ago | (#38696740)

I think if you actually looked at the legal situation in Europe, you'd come to a different conclusion.

Re:I see an explosion in European web-hosting (4, Informative)

betterunixthanunix (980855) | more than 2 years ago | (#38697168)

Why? SOPA would prevent US visitors from going to such websites.

Re:I see an explosion in European web-hosting (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38699766)

Based on my understanding from reading SOPA, it seems that either I am very misinformed or almost every single commenter on the thread is. SOPA specifically mentions that its draconian policies are only to be applied to domestic-facing foreign websites. It then goes on to define a foreign website as any website that isn't a domestic website, and mentions that domestic websites include any website listed on an american based registrar. This implies that all .coms and .orgs are exempt from SOPA as they are listed on American registrars. The basic idea behind the law being written this way is that the DoJ can already seize any domestic website without a trial, so why bother passing a law to DNS filter them?

The reason why I'm so confused is that the vast majority of these posts are about how all these well-known websites will start sucking (which shouldn't be the case since they are all exempt from SOPA) and that many websites will move overseas (which shouldn't be the case since then they will start sucking since SOPA would apply to them). If I misread some aspect of SOPA that makes this not the case please let me know. At first I assumed that my interpretation could not be true, but I found several consistent interpretations and similar explanations for this wording (including one from one of my senators).

As expected. (1)

Brain-Fu (1274756) | more than 2 years ago | (#38699928)

When the truth is less interesting than the story, the story usually wins.

Be that as it may, legally-enforced Internet filtering is still censorship. People want to be able to trade information with each other, and when an authority steps in to silence them, they rebel. This is just basic human nature (as the inclination for those with authority to step in and stop people from doing anything that might threaten said authority, whether it is just or not).

All of this has happened before and this will all happen again.

An idea... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38696450)

Would it shut them up if we just subjected Internet access to like a $3 per month fee? Put it into a pool and let the copyright holders fight over what share they think they deserve. But only, ONLY!, if they agree to never sue anyone using those ISPs agreeing to this fee.

Re:An idea... (4, Interesting)

jo_ham (604554) | more than 2 years ago | (#38696492)

Thy tried that with the "recordable media tax" that applied to things like CD-R and DVD-R media, and to mp3 players in some countries. It was lobbied for by the music industry because "obviously" people buying recordable media would be burning illegally obtained songs so to compensate them for their "obvious" losses they got a cut of all CD-R sales via a price hike.

Of course this didn't stop them suing people anyway...

Canada (0)

slackware 3.6 (2524328) | more than 2 years ago | (#38696682)

http://neil.eton.ca/copylevy.shtml.....Canada [neil.eton.ca] sucks I live here.

Re:Canada (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38697988)

Your link is well, here http://neil.eton.ca/copylevy.shtml ...but it is true, Canada didn't 'try' anything. It was done and is still in effect. Hence the lack of uppityness when it comes to piracy in this country. For now....

Re:Canada (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38722552)

Fuck you turd burgling mod pirate.

Re:An idea... (1)

lightknight (213164) | more than 2 years ago | (#38697362)

Which is kind of why no one takes them seriously. Their own actions are highly hypocritical.

Re:An idea... (5, Interesting)

AlecC (512609) | more than 2 years ago | (#38696636)

I think this wouldn't work because it would "normalise" piracy. People who do not currently pirate would reckon that that they had paid for anything they wanted to download. so that they were free to do so. This would mean that piracy, instead of being 90% by people who would not by the media if they had to pay, would be done by everybody.

Example from a childcare business who had problems with parents being late to pick up their children after work. They tried charging for overtime, and found that the problem went up, not down: people reckoned it was OK to be late if they were paying for it. (from Freaconomics, I think).

Re:An idea... (2, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38696932)

Yeah that example is from Freakonomics, but the important part of the takeaway was that they made the overtime fee too small, and the cost-benefit analysis made it worth more just to be late. The conclusion was that the fee needed to be higher. I think it we a daycare in Israel.

Re:An idea... (2)

zippthorne (748122) | more than 2 years ago | (#38697208)

Example from a childcare business who had problems with parents being late to pick up their children after work. They tried charging for overtime, and found that the problem went up, not down: people reckoned it was OK to be late if they were paying for it. (from Freaconomics, I think).

Well, that's a bad example. They should've charged enough to cover the additional staffing during the overtime period. Then everybody wins - parents get the extra time they need, staff gets overtime pay opportunities, and the business gets more profit!

after a 2nd strike, self nuked (2)

harvey the nerd (582806) | more than 2 years ago | (#38696452)

The US is hellbent on the way to being a "nuclear damage zone", to be routed around. Inside, people will need a encrypted channel to a "neutral" server outside the US in a freer country to surf from.

Re:after a 2nd strike, self nuked (4, Insightful)

Demonoid-Penguin (1669014) | more than 2 years ago | (#38696600)

The US is hellbent on the way to being a "nuclear damage zone", to be routed around. Inside, people will need a encrypted channel to a "neutral" server outside the US in a freer country to surf from.

More like some, extremely influential people, groups, and companies are hell-bent on having the US control the entire internet. But don't be thinking that it's a US only thing. It upsets the established order - just like printing. Whether they'll succeed or not is another thing. I'm not expecting Facebook, eBay, Amazon, PayPal or climate change deniers to step up for net neutrality. For that to occur we'd need a change in education which won't happen over night. As long as people believe "terrorism" is not something police should deal with then we'll just have another war - this time on "piracy" or "threats to US jobs".

Note that printing was invented a long time before Gutenberg.

Re:after a 2nd strike, self nuked (2)

ironjaw33 (1645357) | more than 2 years ago | (#38697792)

Whether they'll succeed or not is another thing. I'm not expecting Facebook, eBay, Amazon, PayPal or climate change deniers to step up for net neutrality. For that to occur we'd need a change in education which won't happen over night.

Hopefully, you're right: once younger generations who grew up with digital media and the internet rise to positions of power, the rules will change and the insanity will ease. That said, I have a lawyer friend under 30 who ran for office in his state legislature and he is just as willfully ignorant about technology issues as the Senate and House champions of SOPA/PIPA. That doesn't give me much hope for the future.

Re:after a 2nd strike, self nuked (1)

repapetilto (1219852) | more than 2 years ago | (#38701756)

I've met people who thought having a "fake" email address was "email fraud". Early 20s.

Re:after a 2nd strike, self nuked (1)

DigiShaman (671371) | more than 2 years ago | (#38698536)

Doesn't matter what side of the fence you're on with regards to the climate debate. Both sides are backed by an almost unmessurable amount of funding. As such there are two establishments fighting for power and control. On one hand, the deniers want to be left alone and fuck up the world for everyone else. Those that have accepted climate change research are looking for policies that control others lives while at the same time enriching themselves with financial and political glory. Al Gore for example.

Re:after a 2nd strike, self nuked (1)

Demonoid-Penguin (1669014) | more than 2 years ago | (#38701872)

Doesn't matter what side of the fence you're on with regards to the climate debate.

I made that reference with regard to government control of what scientists were/are allowed to say.

I'm of the belief that you can't try and invalidate data that shows elevated temperatures by claiming the temperature measurements are artificially elevated by having recording stations near roads, power stations, and airport *and* simultaneously claim that producing heat doesn't have an effect on the immediate environment.

so where should one go? (4, Insightful)

khipu (2511498) | more than 2 years ago | (#38696686)

I'd like to know where that mythical country is that respects your Internet privacy and doesn't subject you to damage from arbitrary and invalid copyright claims. I haven't found it, but I'd sure like to move my server there.

Internet connections in Europe are subject to monitoring without a court order, you may end up having to pay fines for mere allegations of copyright infringement without due process, the government can place viruses on your computer to monitor it, and many forms of speech that are legal and protected in the US are illegal and subject to prosecution in Europe.

Re:so where should one go? (5, Informative)

xavdeman (946931) | more than 2 years ago | (#38697200)

I'd like to know where that mythical country is that respects your Internet privacy and doesn't subject you to damage from arbitrary and invalid copyright claims. I haven't found it (...).

Sweden. You should try PRQ.se, they host TPB. But they also offer Dedicated servers and Tunnels and anonymizers.

Re:so where should one go? (3)

khipu (2511498) | more than 2 years ago | (#38698522)

I have my doubts. Sweden is subject to EU data retention directives (even if they have been dragging their feet implementing them) and permits warrantless wiretapping (backed up by a huge supercomputer). Sweden also has hate-speech laws that have been used to stifle free speech, and has used DNS filters to make sites inaccessible. And the Pirate Bay fate suggests that they are subject to similar copyright enforcement as other nations (the second largest damage award went to a German company, so this isn't just US-driven). In what way is it better than other nations? Furthermore, how well does Sweden protect the rights of foreign customers?

Re:so where should one go? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38697878)

I think your question is getting very close.

I take this part of your sentence.
"respects your Internet privacy and doesn't subject you to damage from arbitrary and invalid copyright claims"

Basically you are saying don't spy on me, and don't attack me with copyright laws.

I think these are actually one in the same. Hear me out.

If they are spying on us, and we have our OWN copyrighted works, Sue NSA and DHS (via their motherfucking proxy AT&T, etc) for damage to your copyrighted works by spying via fios splitter, packet inspection, etc.

Shut every motherfucking thing down with this bullshit psychopathic law.

Alternatively . . .
Pass a new bill that makes breaking your oath of office an executable offense. (tag that motherfucker into some budget emergency bill, the Restore the Motherfucking US Constitution ACT.)

Re:so where should one go? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38698438)

chile

They have a net neutrality law in effect now, and if you want to bring a copyright infringement case against someone you will need to put up more cash and resources than the person you are suing. You can bring a temporary emergency injunction (with a court order), but it only stays in effect for at most a few months unless you file a law suit by the deadline. You don't get to block something, without following up with the proper legal action.

They also just passed the law to make it illegal to sell a locked cell phone or sim chip by the major carriers, and they have to publish instructions for unlocking all previously sold phones.

Now, the quality of the hosting is not so great.

Re:so where should one go? (1)

khipu (2511498) | more than 2 years ago | (#38699752)

Thanks; that's worth looking into. Chile seems to be doing well (economic freedom, etc.) on other indicators as well.

Fear not, this will not be a real problem (5, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38696460)

Actually, those acts are a good thing. In reality they will only hurt American companies and consumers, not the rest of the world. They will however drive business and entrepreneurship away from USA, basically allowing the US economy to implode, and thus when the companies get hurt, their wellsponsored congresspuppets will vote in another act to stop this madness.

Good thing money equals speech in some areas, isn't it?

Re:Fear not, this will not be a real problem (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38696640)

basically allowing the US economy to implode

Good thing you've schooled yourself in the use of hyperbole.

Re:Fear not, this will not be a real problem (5, Insightful)

Elbereth (58257) | more than 2 years ago | (#38696902)

Unfortunately, this is incredibly common whenever Slashdot discusses something. Slashdot when into hysterics when they found out about Trusted Computing. Nowadays, most of them use locked-down cell phones and game consoles every day, without a single complaint, despite how that was going to destroy computing as we know it. When Slashdot heard about RFID, the entire website ground to a halt, as the paranoid conspiracy wing took over the submission queue. People were advising you to microwave your new clothes. Slashdot was advising people to microwave their new clothes. I am not making this up. According to Slashdot, the government was going to use RFID to track people (or, less commonly, corporations were going to track people, but that didn't sound ominous enough, so it was a minority conspiracy). I eventually stopped reading Slashdot for a few years, because it just got so crazy here.

Now, we've got SOPA, PIPA, and ACTA. Everyone knows these are bad laws. However, Slashdot has to go into hysterics yet again, making it that much more difficult to convince anyone that they truly are bad laws. When you've got one person over here saying, "SOPA is a bad law, because it will shift responsibility from users to site administrators", and you've got a whole crowd of geeks, frothing at the mouth, screaming, "SOPA WILL KILL THE INTERNET!!!!!!!!!11111", people will just tune out the rational person and write off everyone. This article is part of the problem. Instead of rationally and dispassionately explaining the issues, it starts screaming bloody murder, coming up with wildly improbable edge cases, in an effort to get people riled up and ready to protest. The examples that he uses are laughable, at best. They read like the sorts of wild conspiracy theories that usually come from anonymous users on Slashdot.

I think that I hate "push technology" more than the average Slashdotter, but, then again, we'd all say that. I'm that guy from The Onion who doesn't own a television. I can't stand the thought of the Internet turning into some kind of passive, non-interactive experience like TV, where everything is designed for the lowest common denominator, vetted by focus groups and censored for my benefit. However, there's a huge difference between YouTube turning into a promotional tool for major labels (yuck) and the economy imploding, the internet being RUINED FOREVER, and scientific progress being impeded. Will people fight as passionately if you tell them YouTube will get more boring? Will people fight as passionately if you tell them MegaUpload will start validating that all those 700MB .AVI files aren't Hollywood movies? Maybe not. But it's infinitely better to tell people the truth, rather than making up these ridiculous, exaggerated stories about the world ending. My God, you'd think that one stupid law could cause the end of human civilization. I'm sorry, but that's just not possible. If SOPA/PIPA/ACTA pass, the Internet will be a worse place. But it will not cause half the things that people are saying will happen, and I think the public knows this. They're not as stupid as the elitists at Slashdot think. It's like when those cops came to your school and told you that you that marijuana would turn you into a drug addict, living on the streets, sucking cock for a fix. You knew that was bullshit. Well, the public knows that you're spewing bullshit about SOPA, and they're going to tune you out, just like you tuned out that cop.

Re:Fear not, this will not be a real problem (3, Insightful)

lightknight (213164) | more than 2 years ago | (#38697430)

Granted. However, in /.'s defense, the people in charge typically have trouble discerning when they've stepped over the line; in fact, it's only when people pick up the proverbial torches and pitchforks that various elected officials care to actually ponder where the language of a particular bill might lead the nation.

And let's be honest: the the vast majority of bills Congress has voted into law over the past several years have been on par with some of the stinkers that Hollywood has been shoving down the public's throat. What we need here is a website like Rotton Tomatoes, but for the various laws that have been passed.

Re:Fear not, this will not be a real problem (5, Insightful)

misexistentialist (1537887) | more than 2 years ago | (#38697628)

Slashdot was advising people to microwave their new clothes. I am not making this up. According to Slashdot, the government was going to use RFID to track people

The fact is the government is tracking cellphones and vehicles with various technologies. The "ridiculous, exaggerated" story essentially came to pass , though RFID wasn't the mechanism. Yes, we have nothing to hide from Big Brother, and yes life will go on even when the internet becomes an exclusively corporate and government domain. It's a good thing we have "sensible" people like you around to help us accept our fate.

Re:Fear not, this will not be a real problem (1, Troll)

Elbereth (58257) | more than 2 years ago | (#38698570)

We'll see. I'm sure you'll figure out some way to salvage a way to be proven right, just like you've found a way to justify Slashdot's paranoia about RFID. You're arguing that the basic concept was proven correct ("Someone, somewhere will eventually track us with something"), while I'm arguing that Slashdot's Chicken Little antics made it that much easier for someone to actually track you. The more you scream, "The sky is falling!", the easier it becomes for people to tune you out, as the ravings of a kook. You're unwilling accept that Slashdot was raving about a non-issue, elevating it into a world-ending catastrophe that would plunge the world into fascism. Slashdot is doing the exact same thing again, now. Do you seriously think people will listen to you, when you say things like the internet will become "an exclusively corporate and government domain"? Where do you go from there? How do you express the danger of legislation that explicitly outlaws freedom of speech on the internet? Of course, you'll probably say that's exactly what SOPA does. In that case, all I can say is that when some piece of legislation eventually does pass, which revokes freedom of speech online, you'll have made its passage that much easier. Nobody will listen to me, because they've already learned to tune out that message, as fear-mongering. Doubtlessly, you'll hold up that legislation as a victory, saying that you were right all along, even as you pave the way for it to pass.

Re:Fear not, this will not be a real problem (2)

bzipitidoo (647217) | more than 2 years ago | (#38700146)

You're the one engaging in Chicken Little antics-- about Slashdot's alleged Chicken Little antics. You think SOPA isn't any big deal? Maybe you're right. But this isn't about only SOPA, this is about the climate, attitudes, ignorance, and problems that made it possible for such horrible ideas to even come before Congress. SOPA is just the latest battle in this war, the War Against Information. We know quite well that even if SOPA and PIPA crash and burn like a lead Hindenburg, powerful interests will be back for another round, and another. They're fools who think to create their own little corner of control to profit from, and who don't see how that could come back to bite them, and all of us. They evidently think they have real chances of putting this sort of thing over on the public, and, sadly, they're right.

This war isn't won until nobody but a few cranks on the fringes gives such outrageous ideas the time of day. When they have less credibility than the average Nigerian scammer, then the war is won. Nobody would seriously try to pass legislation that, for instance, declares that Christianity is the official religion of the US, and outlaws mosques, synagogues, etc. Sure, there are people who would like to do just that, but they know such a thing doesn't have (pardon the joke) a prayer. Enough people believe that separation of church and state is a good idea to see to that. "In God we trust" is on the currency, but that was a sop that in no way affects how the country operates. We don't yet have similar principles established for information. The public isn't too sure where the lines should be. If the US blows it on this, that won't end in our destruction. But, it could very well put the US in decline. Other countries might seize the opportunity to lure away the best and brightest minds.

GoDaddy got the message. I'm sure they still want to support SOPA, but now they know they'd better not if they don't want to lose even more customers. Maybe we can't move MS and Apple because they're too big and get too much support from the uninformed general public, but sometimes we can make the likes of GoDaddy blink.

Re:Fear not, this will not be a real problem (2)

Elbereth (58257) | more than 2 years ago | (#38701248)

I never said it was no big deal. I'm saying that it's a bad law that will have negative repercussions. I'm a little tired of alleged Chicken Little antics, because every time it's mentioned, someone says that the economy will collapse, the internet will turn into cable TV, scientific debate will be silenced, etc. These are outrageous claims. They always depend on absolute worst case scenarios, but they're presented as irrefutable, immutable prophecies. If you pass SOPA, they will come to pass. What happens if SOPA passes, and they don't come to pass? You've blown your credibility. Climate change is a good example of this. There are some outspoken advocates who have made doom and gloom predictions that did not come to pass. In some cases, it's because they were working with incomplete data. Or the data changed. Or whatever. The problem is, people are only going to remember that an expert made a doomsday prediction that didn't come true. Even when you've got evidence to back up your claims, you need to be careful. Once you're perceived to have made incorrect predictions, your credibility is blown and the movement is hurt.

If the US blows it on this, that won't end in our destruction. But, it could very well put the US in decline. Other countries might seize the opportunity to lure away the best and brightest minds.

This is a very good message. This is something that I could get behind. It's still a bit more ideological than I'd probably put it, but it's true enough. Compare this to

Yes, we have nothing to hide from Big Brother, and yes life will go on even when the internet becomes an exclusively corporate and government domain. It's a good thing we have "sensible" people like you around to help us accept our fate.

Seriously? All (not most) user-submitted content on the internet will disappear. That means nobody on the entire internet will be able to post a photograph they took. Nobody on the internet will be able to upload a cute video of their pets. Nobody will be able to upload a short story they wrote. Do you think this is what SOPA will cause? With no exaggeration? Because as soon as one thought criminal uploads a single, unchallenged haiku to the internet, it becomes untrue. That brave, brave thought criminal... he has toppled the fascist empire with his humble haiku! According to this poster, Linux will be destroyed, because SOPA will make it impossible to host any open source code. Uhhh... no.

And yet his comment is at +5, and my comments are steadily getting modded down.

We'll see. I already said what I think will happen. [slashdot.org] My vision is substantially less apocalyptic, but it's still sufficiently negative that I think it's obvious where I stand. I get what you're saying. You're an optimist. You think this is the worst bill that could be passed. You don't see any reason to hold back. You're ready to bring out the big guns. Alright. I get that. I'm more of a pessimist, though, and I think that saving the predictions of doom and gloom for something worse than SOPA is a good idea. NDAA 2012 is my idea of a "doom and gloom" scenario. I'm much more worried about fascists carting me off in the middle of the night than I am of Sony blacklisting my hobbyist web site.

Re:Fear not, this will not be a real problem (1)

lsatenstein (949458) | more than 2 years ago | (#38720634)

RFID was not strong enough. If you merit it, you get a gps foot bracelet.

Re:Fear not, this will not be a real problem (1)

plaukas pyragely (1630517) | more than 2 years ago | (#38696738)

Except one thing: payment providers. It will hurt a lot when American companies start using SOPA to block Paypal/Visa/Mastercard payments for foreign companies.

Re:Fear not, this will not be a real problem (1)

betterunixthanunix (980855) | more than 2 years ago | (#38697216)

In reality they will only hurt American companies and consumers, not the rest of the world

Actually, this will hurt the rest of the world. It will fracture the DNS system. It will give countries like China and India an excuse to further their own censorship agendas. It will hurt innovation in the US, which will hurt innovation elsewhere. It will make it hard for people do to business with the millions of consumers in the US.

The Internet is global, so one country attacking the Internet harms everyone everywhere. Do you really think that China's firewall has not affected anyone outside of China?

Re:Fear not, this will not be a real problem (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38698790)

not the rest of the world.

Nope. Rest of the world is screwed as well. Did you not hear that a British citizen is being extradited to the US for "Copyright Infringement with intent to distribute", when all he did was file linking? Something which hasn't been ruled illegal in the UK, and is still grey in the US (relevant DMCA blurb here [wikipedia.org] ).

Think about that. Extradition! You think when real controversial information is being hosted (see wiki-leaks or equiv.), the US Government is going to sit idly by once SOPA is passed? Or worse, when ACTA is passed? Appropriate legal framework is the only thing they're waiting on. Once that's in place, they'll fight it out in the courts if they need to which, with some more recent rulings, could take years to decades to sort out.

. . . and it won't just stop in the US . . . (2)

PolygamousRanchKid (1290638) | more than 2 years ago | (#38696476)

... it seems that the US is committed to bullying other countries into enacting these laws themselves . . . or else . . .

Re:. . . and it won't just stop in the US . . . (1)

lennier1 (264730) | more than 2 years ago | (#38696606)

Pretty much the only solution.
Treat any DNS information from US systems as compromised until the opposite has been confirmed thoroughly.

What about a type of backup. (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38696482)

This will probably reflect on my ignorance regarding DNS, but why can't we have a website similar to archive.org that resides on a static ip address that everyone knows and that can be used to check the latest archived DNS records.
I'm not proposing domain anarchy. Just something like ICANNBackup.org which resolves to x.x.x.x?

Re:What about a type of backup. (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38696516)

A fair suggestion, but some issues.

1. To handle the load that server would receive it would need geo-dispersed slaves, with levels of recursion handed-off to lower tiers. So eventually you'd end-up with an analog of the current DNS system.
2. Who would pay for the hosting and throughput?
3. It would need to be out of the jurisdiction of SOPA, so perhaps a .info domain and administered in... Iran?
4. A quick-fix for the SOPA advocates would be to break routing to the nodes in the system. After all, they'll need to remain on static addresses and known routes.
5. It should really be an x:x:x:x:x:x:x:x IP address...

Re:What about a type of backup. (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38696532)

P2P DNS?

Re:What about a type of backup. (4, Interesting)

Demonoid-Penguin (1669014) | more than 2 years ago | (#38696644)

A fair suggestion, but some issues.

Aside from the technical issues - the real problem is that the US will just declare war on cyber terrorism - a phrase that can take on any meaning. And any country not on their side....

Don't forget where ICAAN is - or do you think it's an independent organisation like the UN? If Microsoft can go on license raids with Russian police how long before Disney goes on door kicking adventures in Spain. Already ICE has declared war on counterfeit copies of goods that are not made in the US. And a UK citizen is being extradited for something that's not illegal in the UK.

Re:What about a type of backup. (1)

marcosdumay (620877) | more than 2 years ago | (#38696864)

There are several of them, their IP spread mostly via DHCP.

Doesn't stop there... (5, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38696494)

Let's apply the SOPA logic to other things to... if someone asks you for directions to a bank and they rob it then you should be liable. Farewell GPS and maps, we barely knew thee.

SOPA is a very silly piece of legislation but we already have the US attempting to extradite someone from the UK for hosting links. SOPA just codifies such gross stupidity in US law.

Re:Doesn't stop there... (2)

Demonoid-Penguin (1669014) | more than 2 years ago | (#38696648)

Let's apply the SOPA logic to other things to... if someone asks you for directions to a bank and they rob it then you should be liable. Farewell GPS and maps, we barely knew thee.

SOPA is a very silly piece of legislation but we already have the US attempting to extradite someone from the UK for hosting links. SOPA just codifies such gross stupidity in US law.

Sadly logic works well in code, but craps out in reality.

Re:Doesn't stop there... (1)

Joce640k (829181) | more than 2 years ago | (#38696872)

SOPA is a very silly piece of legislation

Legislation doesn't have to make sense, it just has to meet payment criteria.

The people voting on this are old guys in suits, they have no idea what DNS is and have no interest in learning about it. All they know is other suits saying "it'll stop people copying our stuff!" over expensive dinners.

The other suits aren't any better; they actually believe it will stop people copying stuff.

It won't.

Re:Doesn't stop there... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38696998)

Let's apply the SOPA logic to other things to... if someone asks you for directions to a bank and they rob it then you should be liable

Not quite. If a well-connected guy says he saw you give someone directions to a bank and they rob it, then you should be immediately executed.

Congress Is the Best Party to Police the Internet (4, Interesting)

pcwhalen (230935) | more than 2 years ago | (#38696550)

Because they understand it so well.

Take a look at "Dear Congress, It's No Longer OK To Not Know How The Internet Works" http://bit.ly/vOEEbt [bit.ly]

Senator Ted Stevens described the internet as “a series of tubes;” Rep. Mel Watt of North Carolina "seemed particularly comfortable about his own lack of understanding;" and Rep. Maxine Waters of California stated "any discussion of security concerns is 'wasting time' and that the bill should move forward without question."

Can we fix it? Kapil Sibal, can. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38696580)

Minister Kapil Sibal, the Communications Minster for India, provided a solution to this problem. Websites should hire people to manually review *all* user-submitted content prior to posting on the web. He just happens to know a country with a large and reasonably cheap workforce available for such things, ruled by a government using the Orwell playbook.

Re:Can we fix it? Kapil Sibal, can. (1)

Gordonjcp (186804) | more than 2 years ago | (#38696618)

He just happens to know a country with a large and reasonably cheap workforce available for such things, ruled by a government using the Orwell playbook.

Which one, America?

Then target political websites (2)

doghouse41 (140537) | more than 2 years ago | (#38696588)

Just a thought - but if SOPA can be used to silence debate, this must apply just as much to the political as to the scientific process.

I think that if you were to target politician's private websites and any websites associated with congress using SOPA then you might quickly find the act repealed!

Bizzare initials (5, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38696610)

SOPA in greek means "shut up"
PIPA in greek means "pipe" or (slang) "blowjob"

Re:Bizzare initials (2)

Joce640k (829181) | more than 2 years ago | (#38696926)

In Spanish it's "soup" and "sunflower seed"

Re:Bizzare initials (2)

sunwukong (412560) | more than 2 years ago | (#38697002)

In Canada they mean "Standard Operating Procedure" and "Picture In Picture", eh?

Re:Bizzare initials (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38697148)

Seems like a good description of the acts.

Re:Bizzare initials (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38699828)

Wow, I was going to write a similar comment, but You beat me to it.
It seems like these organisations have European roots.
PIPA in polish means "pussy"

Re:Bizzare initials (1)

DaSwing (902297) | more than 2 years ago | (#38705198)

Seems to mean something in every language. In swedish SOPA is a derogatory term you say to someone when they suck (meaning 'garbage') and a verb meaning to use a broom. PIPA means smoking pipe.

2nd ammendment? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38696620)

when's it time to use it?

Re:2nd ammendment? (1)

NotBorg (829820) | more than 2 years ago | (#38698010)

For a long time now the 2nd amendment only applies to protecting one's home from trespassers who would do harm.

The second amendment was useless for overthrowing the government the moment military weapons were better than what you could legally own. Just go ahead and try to stockpile enough anything to compete with the military. You will be put down.

Re:2nd ammendment? (1)

JockTroll (996521) | more than 2 years ago | (#38698464)

You mean the same way Somali guerrillas were defeated by the mighty US forces? Oh, wait. They were not defeated. They sent the US military back home. You're just making excuses to do nothing while still retaining some measure of self-respect, and failing. You're free to not do anything, but don't pretend for a millisecond it's the only viable possibility, just take a good look at yourself in the mirror, take in the pale and sickly complexion, the greasy hair, the bovine eyes, the purulent zits, the yellow teeth and the neckbeard, and say to your own reflection: "I will never do anything because I'm weak and a coward, and confronted with physical violence I will crap myself, and I should stop making excuses." It will be painful for the first five minutes but then you can throw yourself out of the window and everything will be fine again.

Re:2nd ammendment? (2)

bussdriver (620565) | more than 2 years ago | (#38699502)

Somalis compared to Americans?? It is a simple balance where any group put into our situation would act no differently. Humans are all relative in their judgements. You couldn't pick a larger contrast in the world-- the poorest and suffering vs the richest and pampered! They can't be fairly compared unless you think in relative terms; and even then none of this is quantitative so it is always going to be a subjective comparison.

Humans don't function on fixed points they operate upon relative distances and you'll be hard pressed to find any evidence against this; all the science says so and that is where I learned about it. Hell, even vision itself is interpretative!

A people put into a horrible situation where the risk is close to the risk of doing nothing have far less of a leap from inaction and action in terms of costs and risks to themselves and/or their families. That is when mass movements happen; when the gap between the two is small enough that a lot of people are willing to take it. There are always people on either side of the bell curve who are heroes/nutcases or cowards/benefactors. The "gap" is a distance that is transferable between situations; not the start/end points- its the delta that matters.

There is NOT a lot to lose to these people by taking risks or sacrificing all when the gap becomes small.

Possibly the most powerful but often forgotten is the whole culture's reaction - the peer pressure is so great; people only lie to themselves when they think they outgrew it; Americans are especially defensive about being individualists and it is really ironic! In American culture the activists are nutcases, hippies, losers, bitching, get a job... etc. for generations now. In Somalia, the fighters were/are much more publicly supported and at least far better understood than activists are here. You know, a major part of the design of the US was to civilize popular revolution and give it an outlet besides violent warfare. Now in recent times its becoming clear to people that system is not working and has only been placating people to trick them into believing they have a political outlet. If this understanding grows a new outlet will be needed until some change can be perceived ("let them eat cake" will probably suffice for another generation. Occupy may appease some for a while because its a movement that is building and I think that a cycle of building movements that fall apart due to ineffectiveness could keep people busy a while longer.)

Rich Kings didn't have the same perspective and their relative judgement didn't make them cowards but they acted like cowards to those on the outside because of the perspective shift. Too much relative risk; so much so that the peasant couldn't comprehend it because their lives or even that of their family was LOW; they were already just slightly above bottom.... Which is why such horrific punishments were needed to control those people; to widen the gap between inaction and action. Midevil times, the Romans, and all those "primitive" societies needed their levels of barbarism. Don't think this is lost on people today; many in the USA were for illegal barbaric methods because civilized ones were not strong enough to control the "tarrist peoples" because they wouldn't understand otherwise. They understood, but more accurately it was about making them feel the proper amount of fear to drive the point home. In the USA they merely need to take away your SUV and your mind is blown at the loss. (exaggerating but still, its a relative thing... ah... take money from a baby and they don't care; take away the toy it is sucking on... )

Re:2nd ammendment? (1)

JockTroll (996521) | more than 2 years ago | (#38704464)

Wow, you put a lot of work in justifying your cowardice. This doesn't change the fact that you're a loserboy on whose face we merrily defecate.

Re:2nd ammendment? (1)

bussdriver (620565) | more than 2 years ago | (#38707236)

You haven't seen anything; I can really piss people like you off talking about cultural relativism.

Chicken Little (1)

msobkow (48369) | more than 2 years ago | (#38696624)

...where freedom of speech could be severely curtailed,....

Could be, might be, possibly, if twisted and abused in the worst ways imaginable by warped and dogmatic minds.

I read the Huff often, but it's just a blog site. There is no fact checking required by their writers, so I take what they say with a HUGE grain of salt.

This article, for example, is a panic-inducing fluff piece with not a shred of evidence to support it.

We GOT our way on SOPA yesterday. Good enough for me.

And that's the idea (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38696626)

"Simply put, ... they will create an environment where freedom of speech could be severely curtailed, large companies can execute competitors, and scientific data can be hidden from the public."

SOPA has nothing to do with any of these scenarios (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38696650)

Except making the process a bit faster.

Don't want to be responsible for what gets published, publicly, on your website (that you're making beacoup $$$ off of?)--don't let people publish it.

The internet has gotten a free pass for too long.

If they really want to help the interwebs (1)

jamvger (2526832) | more than 2 years ago | (#38696680)

I keep hearing about these computer viruses. I hear they are a bad thing. Why doesn't Congress do anything about them? Why don't they pass a law to make them illegal? Call your Congresscritter now and ask him to sponsor a Stop Internet Viruses Act.

SIVA. Now *THAT* would make us safe!

Re:If they really want to help the interwebs (1)

yahwotqa (817672) | more than 2 years ago | (#38697278)

That would stifle economy. Those poor antivirus companies need their viruses!

Correct me if I'm wrong... (4, Interesting)

IronHalik (1568993) | more than 2 years ago | (#38696716)

...but won't SOPA/PIPA work both ways? Won't MAFIAA online distribution channels be affected as well? I could place my copyrighted work somewhere in comment/review section of their sitesand then cite PIPA to take the online store offline.

I'm assuming that according to SOPA/PIPA, site owner is still accountable for what user posts.

Re:Correct me if I'm wrong... (1)

ElusiveJoe (1716808) | more than 2 years ago | (#38697382)

Good thought, but in this case a new law will be passed next to SOPA. Something like PABO (Protecting American Businesses Online), which will grant big corporations immunity from petty individuals like you and me. For example, it will state that you can only sue for for copyright infringement IF you're a slave, pardon, member of the MAFIAA. Don't try to win against them on their field, it's hopeless.

Re:Correct me if I'm wrong... (2)

IronHalik (1568993) | more than 2 years ago | (#38697574)

'All animals are equal. But some animals are more equal than others.'

Re:Correct me if I'm wrong... (1)

UnknowingFool (672806) | more than 2 years ago | (#38699162)

Yes but you don't even have to place copyrighted work. All it takes is the accusation that someone has placed copyrighted work for the site to be yanked and any search results to be de-indexed if SOPA is executed to the fullest. So accuse Universal Studios of copyright infringement and it disappears from the World Wide Web overnight.

A Time to Act (2)

Bucc5062 (856482) | more than 2 years ago | (#38696754)

I RTFA and thought it a little theatrical, but on point. So SOPA and PIPA may have or will have a serious impact upon social websites like FB, like Slashdot, like...all of them. I can see it also having an impact on search engines, consumer websites that allows reviews; So what are these companies doing?

Were I head of Amazon or Google or Microsoft or FaceBook or Slashdot I would perhaps be on the phone coordinating some Act to indicate ones lack of support for SOPA, show what the Internet would be like after its law. I read (once) that there was talk to shut down major sites one day to give example to a crippled Internet....Where did that go? Businesses may lose money? They will lose a lot more if SOPA shut them down. (or will "big sites" get special treatment...that would frost some folks)

So, you see, its hard for me to get upset, to rage against the machine, when the major operators of the machine don't really care. Changing a small section of this bill is not a win, getting it canceled is a win. This Ant can call his representatives all day and it will do nothing against the money in their pockets. What will get their notice is when the Web they and their constituents rely on is taken off line for a day.

When I read that the Google boys, Facebook King, Amazon God, Lord Bill et al speak out loudly and long; then I care, its their world, not mine. If the Web (note, not network) shuts down today I'd jones for a bit on missing gmail, not buying online, not posting to "friends". Quickly I'd re-discover letter writing, going to a local store, and actually attempting to talk face to face (no book) with my friends. It's not my web anymore, it is Google's and their ilk. They don't have a problem with SOPA? Neither do I. I'll read about their success in the local paper Newsprint.

Re:A Time to Act (1)

Joce640k (829181) | more than 2 years ago | (#38696974)

Thing is ... all that will have happened without piracy being affected. At all. It will continue as normal.

Re:A Time to Act (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38698800)

You are right, it is a time to act. But not just to actively oppose SOPA/PIPA. Why is there "piracy"? Because it's neigh impossible to download something and not to pirate - even if you are downloading a rip from a 1930s shellac 78 r.p.m. recording, which hasn't been sold for longer than I have lived, you are still pirating it.(*) Everything, save some literary works and a few works that fell through the legislative cracks, is copyrighted! There is no Public Domain for sound recordings to speak of. There is no Public Domain for movies to speak of. This is what we need to fight for: a healthy and flourishing Public Domain. You can not separate the two.

(*) The US Library of Congress has a Jukebox online where you can listen to streams, but not download. Some of these are as early as the year 1900 AD. These are "protected by State copyright laws". Do you see what I mean? How crazy that is? This is 2012, a recording made 112 years ago is still under copyright!

goodbye (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38696792)

LOL goodbye, america. The rest of the world will happily carry on with the real Internet and just route around this defect as it always did.

Its Just Collatral Damage (1)

nurb432 (527695) | more than 2 years ago | (#38697012)

The industry funding the laws, and the congress that are going to pass them, really cant see beyond their pocket book and feel that any industry ( or people ) that are harmed are just collateral damage, and really don't give a damn.

Whitehouse responds (5, Informative)

7x7 (665946) | more than 2 years ago | (#38697022)

The Obama Administration has responded to the petitions for stopping SOPA, PIPA and E-PARASITE. The good news: They oppose DNS intervention and action against anyone covered by US law. The bad news: They did not address deep-packet inspection or payment processors. https://wwws.whitehouse.gov/petitions#/!/response/combating-online-piracy-while-protecting-open-and-innovative-internet [whitehouse.gov]

Re:Whitehouse responds (2)

Heddahenrik (902008) | more than 2 years ago | (#38697770)

Sorry, but that doesn't mean a shit. The Obama Administration was also "against" infinite detention of people without any kind of trial, of course Obama didn't veto it.

The Obama Administration is just a bunch of bribed lying son-of-a-bitches like everyone else (except the mad ones) in DC, but people just eat their shit and keep quiet. I mean, what could anyone on the left do? Vote for Ron Paul, haha... ha... ha...

Your are a peasant: STFU (0)

Required Snark (1702878) | more than 2 years ago | (#38697138)

You owners are tired of your whining. It is interfering with their collection of all the economic resources in the USA. If you keep talking among yourselves you might get the erroneous archaic idea that as a citizen you have basic rights. You only have value as long as you can put money in the pockets of the economic royalists who now own the country. As soon as you cease to be a source of profit, you are expected to crawl off and die in a gutter. You are not allowed to die in the presence of you owners, it spoils their view. Why have you not figured this out yet?

Error (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38697268)

"Much to the surprise of nobody who understands how the Internet works..."

My brain just threw a parse exception.

what scientific debate? (1)

ronpaulisanidiot (2529418) | more than 2 years ago | (#38697384)

the way we are systematically working to defund scientific research, there won't be much debate in the us much longer anyways. the scientists will be debating instead which country to move to so they can continue with their work.

Off-shore (1)

woboyle (1044168) | more than 2 years ago | (#38697758)

Well, I can see a LOT of sites moving to off-shore sites that are technology literate and friendly - Iceland, Brazil, Some-unnamed-island-in-the-pacific... The jobs that go there will help their economies, but will not be helpful to resurrecting the US economy.

Re:Off-shore (1)

sgt scrub (869860) | more than 2 years ago | (#38697898)

They should put sites in Luxembourg. That is where the media moguls hide their money from the tax man. Then Luxembourg can threaten rat them out to the IRS if they try to sue the government.

Block the government (3, Insightful)

sgt scrub (869860) | more than 2 years ago | (#38697880)

All IP addresses assigned to the U.S. government should be blocked by all of the major sites. Let them have no searches, webmail, webdocs, or video's, chat, or voip until they stop trying to break stuff they know nothing about.

What about arXiv? (4, Interesting)

Paxinum (1204260) | more than 2 years ago | (#38697976)

A few of my math colleges and I are a bit worried that arXiv, (a huge database where mathematicians put their results before sending them to journals), will be shut down. It is most probable that some material in that database coincide with material published in journals, and most journals have the requirement that you sign over the copyright to them, thus making the arxiv version an infringement. However, arxiv is the main source for mathematicians to quickly discover results that might be needed, or to avoid working on a problem which has already been solved. On a side note, there are a few extreme religious groups that oppose almost all form of science, so some might get tempted to shut down theoretical physics or other alternatives to "god did it all".

Number 2 was right (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38698824)

Does anyone else get the feeling that governments are no longer the issue? That's it corporations?

The Children of Politians (COPS) (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38699792)

We need a rider on this bill to say that If you are a COP, Child of a Politician, then you are breaking the law in the public eye. Double Penalty. If your an idiot, and you tell your dad, and HE writes the law? 50 lashes...

The only reason that its a law anyway, is some COP was bragging and got caught.
Much easier to chase ghosts than actual KILLERS.

Nice to see (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38701452)

such a clear definition of the REAL goals of ACTA, SOPA, PIPA, an other such legisltion!

Stupid AND inept... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38701766)

Does NO ONE in congress know what "WWW" stands for?

Let the old fatcats die already please... (1)

verdent (2366320) | more than 2 years ago | (#38702062)

Oh so sad for the RIAA, the days are long gone for when they were able to rip you off for $15 on a cassette or CD by putting one or two of the best tracks on the radio or TV, and then after getting the whole album home for a listen you discovered the rest of album completely SUCKED! Also, there used to be no way to be able to hear anything from any other musicians out there who weren't actively being promoted by a label, and without major label backing there really was no chance of success, so we can thank the freedom of the internet for the success of a great many musicians who would have otherwise never had the opportunity to be heard by a wider audience.

Bottom line here is the RIAA and MPAA simply don't like you to be able to judge the worth of their product before them having your money in hand. The current environment of the internet independently allows artists to thrive equally, succeeding only upon an earned reputation for talent and not from a record companies promotion, which really is the point of what we're trying to get to, isn't it? SOPA and PIPA are the fruits of old greedy record company and movie execs who are trying to maintain their parasitic position over the true talent. It's been proven that the people will fairly compensate artists for a respectable product (see Radiohead, Louis CK), therefore, would it be such a bad thing if the RIAA and MPAA were forced to eat the crap they produce? and what do we have to lose? A future with less lady gagas, biebers and meet the focker movies would be just fine with me.

Consider, how else are the crooks controlling the american media (TV and newspaper) going to be able to maintain their control over public opinion when americans are able to speak and assemble freely via an unregulated internet? Free speech is terrifying to tyrants, and this (shamefully) is the true underlying force behind SOPA and PIPA.

Like Global Warming??? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38705530)

You mean hurt scientific debate such as Global Warming or ?? So much energy has been spent to prevent scientists from voicing their opposition of said Global Warming and I see this article on SlashDot as if they support it...what a laugh.

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