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Oracle and the Java Ecosystem

samzenpus posted more than 2 years ago | from the a-different-approach dept.

Java 157

First time accepted submitter twofishy writes "After an undeniably rocky start, which saw high profile resignations from the JCP, including Doug Lea (who remains active in the OpenJDK), and the Apache Software Foundation, Oracle is making significant efforts to re-engage with the wider Java ecosystem, a theme which it talked up at the most recent JavaOne conference. The company is working hard to engage with the Java User Group leaders and Java Champions, membership of the OpenJDK project is growing, and the company is making efforts to reform the Java Community Process to improve transparency. The firm has also published a clear, well-defined Java roadmap toward Java 8 and Java 9."

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*Yawn* (5, Insightful)

WildTangent (982186) | more than 2 years ago | (#38715398)

Talk is cheap.

Re:*Yawn* (2)

stanlyb (1839382) | more than 2 years ago | (#38715476)

In Oracle's case, it is expensive, for them. If only they had not tried to "embrace" the whole java community, but as they cannot go back in time, java is history, so to say.

Re:*Yawn* (3, Insightful)

pak9rabid (1011935) | more than 2 years ago | (#38720370)

... java is history, so to say.

No, it's not. And the reason it's not is because it's already entrenched. Hell, just last week [tiobe.com] it was reported that Java was still the #1 language being used; it's certainly not disappearing anytime soon. Oracle will get it right, or face hundreds of pissed off businesses and governments.

Re:*Yawn* (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38715494)

You know what?

If my great-great-great-grandpappy only knew that things would turn out this way ... he'd have picked his own cotton!

I mean at least back then elders cared about what kind of nation their grandchildren would inherit and tried real hard to let them have it better than they did. Definitely not like the Baby Boomers, they're the most selfish and self-centered group of assholes who ever lived.

Re:*Yawn* (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38716412)

Well, except for their kids....

Re:*Yawn* (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38715718)

Talk is cheap.

Yes.

We need Larry Ellison to commit seppuku over this.

Then he'll go to Heaven and have to deal with God yelling at him, "No! I'm God around here! I CAN send you to Hell!"

The Devil is seen shaking his head violetly back and forth and waving his hands mouthing, "No! No! No! No!"

Re:*Yawn* (4, Funny)

Grishnakh (216268) | more than 2 years ago | (#38716048)

Larry Ellison IS the devil. Haven't you seen a photo [silicon.com] of him?

Re:*Yawn* (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38715780)

Listen, dude, I want you to FUCK ME RAW. Understand? FUCK ME RAW until it hurts, get it? I want it UP MY ASS until I bleed, comprende?

Indeed (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38715862)

With government or corporations, you would do better to assume the exact opposite of what they claim. In general, the larger and more profitable the entity, the more likely it is they are lying through their teeth.

Re:*Yawn* (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38716200)

Especially since many long time Java devs are starting to shift over to Scala these days...

Re:*Yawn* (1)

Raenex (947668) | more than 2 years ago | (#38716384)

Scala derives much of its benefit from being compatible with the Java libraries and running on the JVM.

Re:*Yawn* (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38716510)

That, and they'll be shifting back once they see what godawful disaster Scala is in terms of linguistic complexity.

Note to Lift library developers: implicits to implement CSS-style selectors and replacements in snippets is even less cool than C++ operator overrides.

Re:*Yawn* (2)

DetriusXii (632162) | more than 2 years ago | (#38717022)

That, and they'll be shifting back once they see what godawful disaster Scala is in terms of linguistic complexity.

Note to Lift library developers: implicits to implement CSS-style selectors and replacements in snippets is even less cool than C++ operator overrides.

The Play Scala framework provides a better web framework. It's more natural to understand. I do agree that Lift wasn't intuitive (although I may go back to it at a later point in time). I disagree with the linguistic complexity. A lot of Scala borrows from FP paradigms and FP attempts to reify programming patterns that are experienced throughout a programmer's life. I don't understand what your criticisms towards Scala are considering Scala is more than just Lift.

Re:*Yawn* (1)

Threni (635302) | more than 2 years ago | (#38716390)

If they're still suing Google over Java they can fuck right off.

Re:*Yawn* (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38716526)

Oracle wants it both ways: Java is GPL open source, but also Oracle controls it and makes the rules.

Re:*Yawn* (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38718744)

Get it through your head already. The JRE and JDK are open source, most if not all of JEE is open source. Java Mobile has ALWAYS been proprietary and continues to be proprietary, and that's what they're suing Google over. Had Google modified the JDK or JRE to make Dalvik, this wouldn't be a problem.

Cite even one instance where they've litigated over the JDK or JRE since it's been open, just one.

jigsaw (4, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38715446)

seeing what's happening on the modularization front i'm afraid it'll be just like the fiasco with log4j and jdk logging which came afterwards. modularization is what java applications (well, backend servers powering too complex enterprisey-apps) need, and that should be achieved through the means of easy to use osgi tools instead of yet another (sun|oracle) screwup mimicking an "oss standard".

Re:jigsaw (4, Interesting)

randomlogin (448414) | more than 2 years ago | (#38716042)

Modularization is what java applications (well, backend servers powering too complex enterprisey-apps) need, and that should be achieved through the means of easy to use osgi tools instead of yet another (sun|oracle) screwup mimicking an "oss standard".

I think you're missing one of the main points of Jigsaw - which is modularizing the platform, not the application. This is especially important if Java is to get back into the embedded space, where JavaME and CDC are so antiquated it's just not funny any more. Having a range of well defined platform profiles which span everything from headless embedded devices up to a full enterprise stack (while using the same underlying codebase) would be a major step forward. Personally, I don't care what the implementation details are - the changes aren't going to stop anyone from using OSGi to modularize their applications if they want to.

Oracle matters less thank you'd think (5, Interesting)

SplashMyBandit (1543257) | more than 2 years ago | (#38715488)

Compared to other development platforms (eg. MS C++, C#.NET etc) the influence of Oracle is less important than many people may think. Basically the OpenJDK is more important than Oracle's commerical offering (the successor of the Sun JDK - which is very similar to OpenJDK as they have almost all source code in common). But even if this were not the case the Java 'world' has a lot of alterantives: the IBM JDK, GNU GCJ, Apache Harmony. This means that Oracle can try throw its weight around but it is not as devastating as Microsoft would be in the .NET world. This is one beauty (for end-users/developers) with the Java ecosystem.

Re:Oracle matters less thank you'd think (5, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38715516)

I disagree, OpenJDK (specially for Java 6) has many incompatibilities. Try running Intellij IDEA on it (they don't recommend it), or even some app servers.

Re:Oracle matters less thank you'd think (4, Informative)

Necroman (61604) | more than 2 years ago | (#38715964)

I would recommend against using OpenJDK 6 for anything really. OpenJDK 7 is a bit different though, as it is the official Java SE 7 reference implementation [wikipedia.org] .

I see OpenJDK 6 as their initial "hey, look at what we're working on", as they tried to completely open source the JDK (they had to re-write at least 4% of the Sun JDK when turning it into OpenJDK). With that re-write, lots of things were probably broken, and testing was required to get them working again. Now that OpenJDK 7 is out, Oracle, IBM and other will be putting their efforts into improving it and making it as complete as possible.

Re:Oracle matters less thank you'd think (2)

tokul (682258) | more than 2 years ago | (#38716026)

even some app servers.

Some app servers have compatibility issues if you run them on different Sun JRE/JDK version.

Re:Oracle matters less thank you'd think (1)

sourcerror (1718066) | more than 2 years ago | (#38716284)

That might be right, however on the desktop client part it seems the situation is better.

Re:Oracle matters less thank you'd think (4, Interesting)

El_Muerte_TDS (592157) | more than 2 years ago | (#38716358)

Funny thing, we experienced the exact opposite. We have issues with various Oracle JDK6 version on Linux that we don't have with OpenJDK 6 versions. Our application would simply segfault when it reaches the set memory limit (instead of garbage collecting).

Re:Oracle matters less thank you'd think (3, Informative)

OverlordQ (264228) | more than 2 years ago | (#38715542)

But even if this were not the case the Java 'world' has a lot of alterantives: the IBM JDK, GNU GCJ, Apache Harmony. [...] This is one beauty (for end-users/developers) with the Java ecosystem.

Until what you wrote for for one doesn't work on the other. Java likes to say it's cross platform, but there's still lots of implementation specific hangups in the various JREs.

Re:Oracle matters less thank you'd think (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38716332)

Don't blame being a bad coder on Java.
Of course if you e.g. try to use the acceleration sensor on a phone that dosen't have one, ore try to start a GUI on a headless X-less Linux server box, it will crash.
Or if you try to use the wrong path separator.

You have to actually *use* the generic interfaces, and obviously have to program separate code paths for boxes with no GUI or acceleration sensor.

Why isn't all this obvious? Are people really thinking Java will magically buy a screen, connect it and install X when you try to run a graphical application on a headless server?

Re:Oracle matters less thank you'd think (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38716400)

Don't blame being a bad coder on Java.

O.K. Let's blame Java developers. Problems like these are incredibly common, which means that most developers who are writing Java either don't give a shit, or just downright bad. Either way, why would I or anyone else be expected to trust what is on balance, evidently poor quality software?

Re:Oracle matters less thank you'd think (1)

JonySuede (1908576) | more than 2 years ago | (#38717994)

that most developers who are writing Java either don't give a shit, or just downright bad

the correct affirmation would be : that most enterprise developers who are programming either don't give a shit, or are just downright bad

Re:Oracle matters less thank you'd think (2)

SplashMyBandit (1543257) | more than 2 years ago | (#38718474)

> Or if you try to use the wrong path separator.
Great example I see all too often. This one is a classic signs of a terrible programmer. How hard is it to use File.separator instead of hardcoding "\\" or "/" in your paths?

Basically there are a lot of lazy muppets (or muppet sympathisers) out there who would trash Java rather than accept that it is actually programmer error for putting "Window-isms" into their code. They do this crap in every language and despite Java's "Write once [automated unit test everywhere] run everywhere" actually working (provided you actually give a damn about the code you are writing) they still screw it up. But folks still love to blame Java when it doesn't magically cope with "professionals" (lol) that can't cope with very elementary principals of platform independent development.

Re:Oracle matters less thank you'd think (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38715562)

Please, to put label <label>:, goto <label>; and unsigned to the language Java. And provide us an ASM assembler of Java bytecodes.

JCPM

Re:Oracle matters less thank you'd think (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38715578)

Additionally you could just learn to code.

Re:Oracle matters less thank you'd think (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38715706)

Really? You're list of "must haves" starts with "goto"?

I know that there are still some diehards out there who insist that unstructured branches (i.e. "goto") have a place in a modern programming language, but the only example I have ever seen where a "goto" actually provided some value was in a performance critical piece of system code (specifically, it was part of the Linux kernel). Given that Java is an application language, not a system language, I see absolutely zero value in introducing unstructured branches. The structured branch constructs are perfectly sufficient.

Adding unsigned types to the language would add very little value, but it would add at least some value, so I won't argue with that one.

Re:Oracle matters less thank you'd think (3, Insightful)

0123456 (636235) | more than 2 years ago | (#38715796)

Adding unsigned types to the language would add very little value, but it would add at least some value, so I won't argue with that one.

Not having unsigned types is probably the second dumbest decision in Java's design, after compulsory garbage collection.

Sure, you can work around it by using larger data types (e.g. short when you really mean byte), but it's a real pain when interoperating with code in other languages.

Re:Oracle matters less thank you'd think (2)

John Courtland (585609) | more than 2 years ago | (#38716246)

I think always-GC is awesome. It forced TONS of research into high speed, low pause GC algorithms and in my not so humble opinion, we are all better off for it.

Re:Oracle matters less thank you'd think (1)

Jerry Atrick (2461566) | more than 2 years ago | (#38718506)

Are you sure the research delivered, because avoiding gc still gives a huge performance boost in most apps. You might not notice on your nGhz PC but you will on your phone.

Re:Oracle matters less thank you'd think (1)

MichaelSmith (789609) | more than 2 years ago | (#38718828)

I see too many memory leaks in complex java code where references are kept to unwanted objects. I would prefer to see something like an assert_free(object) to make it easier to track when an object should be free.

Re:Oracle matters less thank you'd think (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38715924)

I'm not violating the Dijkstra's thing but he did forget the Aho-Sethi-Ullman's thing: to easily connect every textual components Ts in the "construction of compilers".

Without label/gotos, it's extremely hard to use Java as the target or the intermediate representation (IR) of the higher-level language compilers!!!

label main_loop: System.out.println("Please, to put label/goto."); if (company.isDenied() && foundation.isDeniedToCommitPatchesToOpenJDK_HG_repository()) goto main_loop;

JCPM

Re:Oracle matters less thank you'd think (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38716274)

Again, Java is an application language, not a system language.

label main_loop: System.out.println("Please, to put label/goto."); if (company.isDenied() && foundation.isDeniedToCommitPatchesToOpenJDK_HG_repository()) goto main_loop;

do {
System.out.println("Please, (not) to put label/goto.");
}
while (company.isDenied() && foundation.isDeniedToCommitPatchesToOpenJDK_HG_repository());

Personally, I like the structured branch version much better. :)

Re:Oracle matters less thank you'd think (2)

u17 (1730558) | more than 2 years ago | (#38716296)

Really? You're list of "must haves" starts with "goto"?

I know that there are still some diehards out there who insist that unstructured branches (i.e. "goto") have a place in a modern programming language, but the only example I have ever seen where a "goto" actually provided some value was in a performance critical piece of system code (specifically, it was part of the Linux kernel). Given that Java is an application language, not a system language, I see absolutely zero value in introducing unstructured branches. The structured branch constructs are perfectly sufficient.

Adding unsigned types to the language would add very little value, but it would add at least some value, so I won't argue with that one.

Goto isn't used in Linux for performance reasons. It's used because C does not have exceptions and using goto to jump to clean-up code prevents code duplication. Any sufficiently experienced C programmer will encourage you to do the same.

Of course, Java has exceptions and the finally keyword, so goto is not strictly needed for this purpose.

Re:Oracle matters less thank you'd think (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38716870)

I didn't say that "goto" was only used in Linux for performance. "Goto" can be used for structured branches where the language doesn't provide a keyword specifically for that purpose, or for unstructured branches. I fully expect to see "goto" in the Linux kernel, or any other C code, to execute structured branching. However, in my GP post, I was referring to a particular example in the Linux kernel where "goto" was used in an unstructured way specifically because it performed better than using a structured branch construct. Unfortunately I don't have a link.

Basically, I don't consider "goto" evil (it's just four harmless letters), but I do consider "unstructured branching" evil. I accept that sometimes it's a necessary evil (such as the Linux performance example), but an application language like Java, which already has constructs for structured branching, doesn't need "goto" to provide the option to do unstructured branching.

Re:Oracle matters less thank you'd think (2)

tires don exits (2460114) | more than 2 years ago | (#38716386)

There is one good use for goto that I've seen. It's for when you have to use a loop, and you want an action to occur if an item was not found. In C or C++, you can do this with...

for ( /* for loop */ ) {
    if ( /* condition */ ) {
        /* do something with found item (maybe) */
        goto finish;
    }
}

// perform action when not found
...
finish:
// continue

With Java, this has to be done with an extra boolean to keep track (and it's much uglier).

bool found = false;
for ( /* for loop */ ) {
    if ( /* condition */ ) {
        found = true;
        break;
    }
}

if (!found) {
}

Don't mistake this for saying something positive about goto though. Python one-ups both of them (and I wish this gets adopted in more languages).

for x in xrange(10):
    if x == 12:
        break
else:
    print '12 wasn't found between 0 and 9, weird'

Much better. Conveys your intentions much more clearly than the other two. This, and the inclusion of labeled break/continue's (as seen in D) would completely replace any need for goto.

Re:Oracle matters less thank you'd think (3, Insightful)

Rary (566291) | more than 2 years ago | (#38717186)

Personally, I think the use of an explicit boolean to flag the "not found" condition makes the code much clearer. That's actually one of the main arguments against unstructured use of GOTO. The code is generally more readable and maintainable if you don't use GOTO. In your Java example, it is quite clear, even without looking at the loop code, that the code after the loop will only execute if the item is not found. This is not clear in the C/C++ example using GOTO, where it is necessary to look at the loop code to understand the code that follows it.

Obviously this is a simple example, but it does demonstrate how an unstructured jump provides at least a little obfuscation, where a more structured approach provides clarity.

The Python case just looks odd to me. There's nothing about a loop construct that necessitates an "else" condition. Obviously, I understand what you're doing in that example thanks to the previous two examples, but if I were to just look at the Python code on its own, I'd be at a loss to figure out what the "else" even means. Logically, the "else" should belong to the "if", which would indicate that the string literal would be printed each time that X was not equal to 12 (meaning it prints 10 times). The indentation suggests that it belongs with the "for", but given that "for" is a loop construct, not a conditional construct, what does "else" even mean in that context? It's very bizarre.

Basically, I can see some (limited) value in the construct, but I disagree with that implementation.

Re:Oracle matters less thank you'd think (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38718360)

Thanks. You saved me from having to write the same rebuttal.

Re:Oracle matters less thank you'd think (1)

Rob Y. (110975) | more than 2 years ago | (#38718814)

I sometimes like to use gotos (along with a flag) to handle final 'flush' logic in a loop during which intermediate flushing may take place. This could be done 'cleaner', I guess, by making the flush logic into a separate function (though that might require passing in a bunch of local variables). Sometimes, though, it's actually clearer to have the flush logic in the main loop, and when that logic is significant, the goto trick is certainly better (and clearer) than the copy/paste jobs you often see lazy programmers do.

final_flush=0;
for (/* for loop */) {
          if (/* section change */) {
do_final_flush:
/* flush current section data */
                    if (final_flush)
                                  break;
          }
/* Accumulate data */
}
/* Flush out final section data */
if (! final_flush) {
          final_flush = 1;
          goto do_final_flush;
}

Re:Oracle matters less thank you'd think (5, Informative)

goofy183 (451746) | more than 2 years ago | (#38716484)

Java has gotos:


loops:
for (int i = 0; i < MAX_I; i++) {
        for (int j = 0; j < MAX_J; j++) { // do stuff
                break loops;
        }
}

Re:Oracle matters less thank you'd think (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38715764)

If neither OpenJDK or JDK is for your needs then to use Objective-C that's the direct competition in speed performance and development time.

The thing that Oracle is saying you now is re-owning the GPL-licensed code (that's partial and incomplete from full JDK that included deployment tools and serviceability management tools) developed by third parties and closing it (e.g. not releasing the GPL'd source code (e.g. specialized patches or source codes from third parties) in the JDK binaries released by Oracle, maybe Oracle is doing illegal).

Oracle, remembers, GPL license != SCSL license.

JCPM

Re:Oracle matters less thank you'd think (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38718842)

in the JDK binaries released by Oracle, maybe Oracle is doing illegal).

They own the copyrights, they can maintain a closed fork if they so please.

Re:Oracle matters less thank you'd think (1)

hey hey hey (659173) | more than 2 years ago | (#38717356)

Frack, funniest thing in MONTHS on slashdot, and I don't have any moderator points :(

Re:Oracle matters less thank you'd think (1)

JonySuede (1908576) | more than 2 years ago | (#38718060)

ASM assembler : http://asm.ow2.org/ [ow2.org] is what you need if you ever decide to patch a library for covariance support to maintain backward compatibility or some esoteric shit like this...

Re:Oracle matters less thank you'd think (1)

Thiez (1281866) | more than 2 years ago | (#38719798)

Java bytecode supports goto. Not having goto in the language is just a design decision. Goto is a reserved keyword in java, so you could actually modify a compiler to support goto, and that compiler would be perfectly backwards compatible with other compilers and code (because code not written for your compiler would never use goto as a variable, class, or method name).

As for the bytecode thing, there are plenty of tools that can compile assembly for the JVM.

Oracle matters more thank you'd think (3, Insightful)

the computer guy nex (916959) | more than 2 years ago | (#38715610)

I would say the majority of Slashdot readers using Java do so in an enterprise environment. The Java Enterprise Edition (JEE) specification is controlled by the JCP, where Oracle has heavy influence. JEE application servers adhere strictly to this spec.

Re:Oracle matters more thank you'd think (1, Insightful)

afabbro (33948) | more than 2 years ago | (#38716268)

I would say the majority of Slashdot readers using Java do so in an enterprise environment.

I would say the majority of Slashdot readers using Java do so in class.

Re:Oracle matters more thank you'd think (2, Insightful)

Bucky24 (1943328) | more than 2 years ago | (#38716410)

This. I haven't had to use Java since I left school (and hell even in school we only used it to learn the basics of programming)

Re:Oracle matters more thank you'd think (2)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38718072)

This. I haven't had to use Java since I left school (and hell even in school we only used it to learn the basics of programming)

Still looking for work, are you?

Seriously, the only thing that comes close to Java in terms of job availability is .NET, and the two are more or less neck-and-neck.

Re:Oracle matters more thank you'd think (1)

Bucky24 (1943328) | more than 2 years ago | (#38719800)

No. I got a job a year before I left school. While it's likely that this is the reason I haven't had to touch Java since school (we're mostly a Perl/PHP shop), no one I know in my major has gotten a job where they had to deal with Java either. It's mostly C (And Objective C for the one who went on to be an iPhone dev).

Like I said before, even in school they only covered it for one class, to teach the basics. After that it was C and Perl.

Re:Oracle matters less thank you'd think (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38716100)

Of the alternatives you list, only the GNU GCJ is not shut down. Apache Harmony has been discontinued (retired to the Apache attic http://attic.apache.org/projects/harmony.html) and IBM has pulled their Harmony committers to OpenJDK instead (http://www.sutor.com/c/2010/10/ibm-joins-the-openjdk-community/).

Re:Oracle matters less thank you'd think (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38716114)

The Apache Harmony project shut down. Also, Oracle has been threatening to sue companies using their patents that don't agree with Oracle's ideas for Java. So Oracle still very much holds the reins.

Re:Oracle matters a lot (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38719468)

They have single handedly destroyed the fragile Java value proposition in two short years,

without constant good targeted marketing the PHBs in the Enterprise will move to the
next new (thing|heap-of-crap).

MFG, omb

Wooohooo (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38715526)

Oracle knows, the nineties were the best :D

I wish ... (4, Insightful)

Elgonn (921934) | more than 2 years ago | (#38715558)

That OpenJDK could just get the lion share of development and mindshare. If LibreOffice can functionally replace OpenOffice there's hope for OpenJDK. Unfortunately LibreOffice had years of a head start on that front (functionally go-oo, etc).

Re:I wish ... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38715596)

Since OpenJDK is soon to become the official reference implementation, you may just get your wish.

Re:I wish ... (2)

PCM2 (4486) | more than 2 years ago | (#38715822)

That OpenJDK could just get the lion share of development and mindshare. If LibreOffice can functionally replace OpenOffice there's hope for OpenJDK.

Unlikely. Java is too important to too many people. Imagine Java being run by a consortium of IBM, Red Hat, Hitachi, Samsung, Nokia, SAP, and about three hundred junior members, with nobody clearly in charge. I don't see how anything would ever get done. Part of what makes Java popular is that it tends to keep up with modern trends in computing (or even establishes them). If Java becomes the next Ada, some other technology will take its place.

Re:I wish ... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38718702)

Imagine Java being run by a consortium of IBM, Red Hat, Hitachi, Samsung, Nokia, SAP, and about three hundred junior members, with nobody clearly in charge. I don't see how anything would ever get done.

What needs doing?

If Java becomes the next Ada, some other technology will take its place.

Unlikely to happen, Ada was never as common as Java is. In any case, one man's stagnation is another's stability. At least you don't see job adverts requiring 87 centuries experience in Ada

Sounds promising (3, Insightful)

msobkow (48369) | more than 2 years ago | (#38715652)

The Java Community Process, through a series of initiatives lead by chairman Patrick Curran, is aiming to improve its transparency and agility. JSR 348, which is the first in a series of reforms Oracle plans for the JCP, has passed final approval ballot. It represents relatively minor changes, but it is still an important step, requiring that in the future all Expert Groups conduct all of their business in public, using a public mailing-list and a public issue-tracker.

It should be readily apparent from my own open documentation and planning approach for MSS Code Factory and Singularity One just how much I believe openness to be CRITICAL to running a modern technology endeavour. The days of closed door development and the sudden release of new technology products is not only disruptive to the industry and employment, it's a fundamentally wrong-headed approach to someone who believes in the GPL ethos as I do.

Kudos to Oracle for realizing the way they were handling things was going against the principles of the way Sun had originally configured the Java community.

Re:Sounds promising (1)

kolbe (320366) | more than 2 years ago | (#38715866)

Have no fear, Oracle ala Larry Ellison will find some way to screw it up in the end.

Most people have ZERO faith in Oracle and there's a reason for that... OpenJDK or move to python or Scala or .NET/C#.

Re:Sounds promising (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38716960)

Haskel. 'nuff said.

(Or course that requires being an actual information scientist or at least a good programmer, instead of a enterprisey consultant type.)

collecton of love quotes (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38715804)

Love me or hate me both are in my favour. If u love me, I will always b in ur heart. If u hate me, I will always b in ur mind. ....... Shakespear

http://www.smstroop.com/tag/english-love-quotes/

That's what I've been saying all along... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38715818)

Oracle is still on of the biggest contributors to open source and did even increase their support for it in terms of manpower. Impossible to judge them now, but let's wait until their agenda becomes more apparent.

Re:That's what I've been saying all along... (1)

rubycodez (864176) | more than 2 years ago | (#38715956)

ha! outside of Sun acquisitions, what has Oracle contributed to open source?

Re:That's what I've been saying all along... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38716322)

http://oss.oracle.com/

Re:That's what I've been saying all along... (1)

rubycodez (864176) | more than 2 years ago | (#38717558)

not seeing a lot of encouraging things there, pal. more oracle acquisitions including Berkeley DB and MySQL, and they've fucked at least one of those up.

Linux Distros and Android. (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38715852)

Stop suing Google and get a fair license for Android if they choose to stay with SUN java and not OpenJDK. And let FREE operating systems distribute correctly built packages of Java. Then I might give a crap what Oracle is or isn't doing as far as engaging the community. Other then that they can go pound sand.

Re:Linux Distros and Android. (1, Insightful)

tlhIngan (30335) | more than 2 years ago | (#38717422)

Stop suing Google and get a fair license for Android if they choose to stay with SUN java and not OpenJDK. .

You do realize that J2ME (what Android uses) is the primary source of revenue for Java, right? It's why the patents are royalty free for J2SE and J2EE, but not for J2ME. All those featurephones pay to have that little-used JVM on them.

So yeah, Google can license J2ME from Oracle, but not for free, otherwise Java really would die because it won't make any money at all.

Of course, if Android implements full J2SE (using OpenJDK), then all that patent nonsense goes away because it's under the free patent licensing...

Re:Linux Distros and Android. (2)

Jerry Atrick (2461566) | more than 2 years ago | (#38718704)

You do realise Google are in trouble because they couldn't licence J2SE for phones (Sun/Oracle wouldn't allow it), J2ME is too limited for what they wanted to do and so Android is NOT based on it.

This is the direct fallout of Sun's policy of barring J2SE use on mobile by withholding the tools needed to certify it.

Java: Was write once run everywhere ever the case? (1)

bogaboga (793279) | more than 2 years ago | (#38715886)

Disclaimer: I am no Java expert.

Is it the case that until Android came around, Java, the language, the libraries and the VM collectively known as "Java" was write once run everywhere platform? Or is was Oracle, now Sun being unfaithful in its representation of what Java really is?

It's write once run everywhere with small niggles (4, Insightful)

coder111 (912060) | more than 2 years ago | (#38715978)

Seriously, unless you are doing something weird, reasonably OK written java app would run under any platform. There might be some small issues, but cross-platform apps with Java are much much much easier to write than cross-platform apps with anything else.

--Coder

Re:It's write once run everywhere with small niggl (2)

Blakey Rat (99501) | more than 2 years ago | (#38716276)

Except it's *always* been "least common denominator". For example, Java runtimes have never supported the Windows named folders. (Basically, they hand you the Roaming App Data folder, tell you that's "home" and you're stuck with it-- there's no way of fetching other named folders or even taking the value it gives you and reliably finding the Documents folder using it.

Basically, they took the bare minimum POSIX features, assumed that was all you need to support every OS ever, and implemented it with that assumption-- even though those assumptions are completely wrong in Windows. (And Mac Classic, but that doesn't matter anymore.) Due to this, it's virtually impossible to write a technically correct Windows application in Java.

Did you look at the Javadoc ? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38717850)

Because, to me what you are looking for is :
http://docs.oracle.com/javase/6/docs/api/javax/swing/filechooser/FileView.html

There since Java 2 (aka 1.2), means there since 1998 ;-)

Do you have other limitations like this ? :P
There is nothing I can not do in Java ... the only limit is get the doc or couple of libs.

Rgs
TM

Re:Did you look at the Javadoc ? (1)

Blakey Rat (99501) | more than 2 years ago | (#38718012)

What the holy hell does that link have to do with my post?

Hint: the answer is "nothing at all"

Re:It's write once run everywhere with small niggl (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38716298)

That "compile once run anywhere" stuff is only relevant for Notch who develops Minecraft.

Everyone else who uses Java does not run it anywhere but on a single test/dev server.

And as soon as they have made the measurements and come to realize how Java performs - Java will run nowhere.

Re:It's write once run everywhere with small niggl (1)

c++0xFF (1758032) | more than 2 years ago | (#38717146)

Speaking from current experience (porting a large codebase which includes several languages, including Java and C++), this is generally true. But that doesn't stop people from doing really stupid things.

For example, previous developers on the code I'm working with decided to use Runtime.exec() everywhere. Need to copy a file? Try running 'cp' ... and be sure to hard-code the path where you think it will exist. Need a directory listing? Call 'ls' ... and be sure to rely on a specific output format for error messages. I have many more examples.

This isn't a Java problem, because Java provides a native mechanism that isn't being used. And, to give credit to Java, at least it's generally pretty obvious what will break on other platforms, and most of that will be encapsulated into JNI or the like.

Java is "write once, run anywhere" if you think about cross-platform compatibility as you're coding. But, the same could be said for most languages, including C and C++ (with Java being a bit better).

Re:Java: Was write once run everywhere ever the ca (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38715986)

"Everywhere" is clearly not true, but I've been rather successful run my compiled Java server code on Windows, Linux, HP-UX, and even Solaris with only a few minor changes where I flubbed (windows pathing and such). In the last 10 years I think I had 1 single issue that was JRE related and it had something to do with how the HP JDK handled threading on a low level. Other than that it's been quite smooth. Now, at the other end of the spectrum with embedded java on cell phones and such it's been a total nightmare.

Re:Java: Was write once run everywhere ever the ca (0)

vlm (69642) | more than 2 years ago | (#38716326)

Is it the case that until Android came around, Java, the language, the libraries and the VM collectively known as "Java" was write once run everywhere platform?

I was there. It was never, ever that way. You couldn't even run multiple java apps on the same computer, because one service provider would only run under and support (made up version) 1.1 and another would only run under and support (made up version) 1.2 and they'd crash horrifically on each other's version. So you'd have workers with two PCs on their desk because they need access to both apps. It was just a nightmare.

It was supposed to be multi-platform across anything, but it wasn't even as inter-compatible as windows. Ugh.

Things may have improved in the last decade or so, but in the olden days it was horrific.

Re:Java: Was write once run everywhere ever the ca (4, Informative)

goofy183 (451746) | more than 2 years ago | (#38716558)

All depends on what you're doing with it. I work on an enterprise level webapp written 100% in java and we have deployments on Windows, Linux, Solaris and OSX-Server using the EXACT same code base and this is an app with over 1000 classes and 250k+ lines of code.

Re:Java: Was write once run everywhere ever the ca (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38716874)

Not sure what it was like in the days of 1.1 and 1.2, but ever since 1.4 you have had the option of running multiple JVMs, or even private ones.
Vendors should fix their code (esp. the one that can't run on a higher version) - but even if they screw up, which is hardly Java's fault, there is still a way around that.

Re:Java: Was write once run everywhere ever the ca (1)

afabbro (33948) | more than 2 years ago | (#38716334)

It's not whether or not it's true, it's whether or not anyone cared.

When Java was something that would run in a browser, yes, that was important. But Java went on to run back-end server and enterprise systems, and there it really doesn't matter because people engineer for specific hardware.

Yes, there are exceptions. There's still some "run anywhere" exploited on the desktop - e.g., Crashplan's desktop GUI. But most companies who are doing Java at any scale are doing it on specific hardware - i.e., their backend processing system runs on x86, SPARC, POWER, or whatever and so who cares if they could pick up the Java code and move it? They're never going to.

Re:Java: Was write once run everywhere ever the ca (2, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38716570)

But Java went on to run back-end server and enterprise systems, and there it really doesn't matter because people engineer for specific hardware.

Actually, that's precisely where I see the "write once run anywhere" in action. I have been developing server-side code for about a decade, and I have always done my development and testing on Windows, but deployed to either Linux or Solaris, without any platform problems whatsoever.

Re:Java: Was write once run everywhere ever the ca (1)

PCM2 (4486) | more than 2 years ago | (#38716600)

Yes, there are exceptions. There's still some "run anywhere" exploited on the desktop - e.g., Crashplan's desktop GUI. But most companies who are doing Java at any scale are doing it on specific hardware - i.e., their backend processing system runs on x86, SPARC, POWER, or whatever and so who cares if they could pick up the Java code and move it? They're never going to.

All the companies who bought Itanium beg to differ.

Re:Java: Was write once run everywhere ever the ca (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38716362)

Generally, though there are always issues with the actual API implementation on specific platforms like platform specific bugs. But yes, the language is standardize (no deviation between platforms but that's true with most languages), the libraries api is standardized and the same no matter the platform (much like cross platform libraries for other languages), and the VM is designed to interpret the applets the same way (minus inconsistency). Basically, with java, the VM does all the work in terms of cross platform rather then the compiler like most other languages. So while write once is true for many languages(though some languages requires you to be more careful), compile once is only true for an interpreted language like java.

So called Java (1)

Grindalf (1089511) | more than 2 years ago | (#38716148)

This so called Java, wouldn't we be better off with Fortran? It compiles on anything, it's completely portable, and it run's offline so you're not tied to any stupid service provider that may or may not be there next year. It's all in capital letters too, just like a ZX Spectrum, just to be cutsie. Sinch ... From our "get it while it's hot department"

Great name for a rock band (1)

Kittenman (971447) | more than 2 years ago | (#38716378)

Maybe it's just me. But especially when the first lines of TFA are "after a rocky start ...". I expected ..."Steve Oracle, the lead singer and charismatic head of the Ecosystem riffed on a delicate C-sharp rising inflection to bring the crowd to it's knees with the country&western ballads that we've all come to know and love"

By all means, mod me off-topic, but it was worth it.

Re:Great name for a rock band (1)

PCM2 (4486) | more than 2 years ago | (#38716644)

Oracle would never go with C-sharp.

You need us more than we need you (1)

TopSpin (753) | more than 2 years ago | (#38716528)

Oracle has been hostile to open systems on every front. Oracle has been indifferent to the concerns and contributions of legions of developers, and no meaningful effort was made to avoid the trauma that has ensued with the acquisition of Sun. Oracle clearly does not give a damn.

I've used most of the common tools of the trade that have appeared during the last 20 years. Java was among those at least 4 occasions that I recall. In each of those cases Java was one of several choices available to me, and in every case the competitors could have served equally well.

When I have the choice, Java will not be used by me or anyone that answers to me for future work. There are simply too many excellent alternatives available today to suffer Oracle and its hostile nature. Everyone I know with similar influence feels the same. The question is; how many years and how much decline must be suffered before Oracle figures out that Java needs us and our good will more than we need Java?

Re:You need us more than we need you (1)

jonwil (467024) | more than 2 years ago | (#38719742)

I will also not use Java for any project where I have the choice to do so and will continue to boycott Java as long as Oracle continues with its lawsuits against Android and Google.

Meanwhile evil continues to rampage at Oracle (1)

SplatMan_DK (1035528) | more than 2 years ago | (#38717188)

Right. So we should all believe that Oracle now wants a world of good for us.

Meanwhile the legal rampage against free and open source software continues. The war against Android - once the pride of Sun's success with Java - is raging.

Oh, and don't even get me started on the crapware Ask-Toolbar they started pushing with the Java update/installer, with the "Yes put crapware on my system" option pre-selected for me...

Yes, Oracle is certainly doing a lot of things for Java. Like killing it ... and pissing the entire customer base off.

- Jesper

I'll just come right out and say it. (2)

leftover (210560) | more than 2 years ago | (#38717508)

IMHO, the involvement of Oracle would be enough to make me avoid Java even if I liked the language. Developing applications is stressful enough without having to worry about what Larry Ellison might do.
And I don't like the language either. The nature of its widespread use only strengthens my feeling it is the 'new' BASIC, a dead-end educational toy that is used far beyond its capacities. Worse, this has gone on long enough for its oversimplified world view to affect what often masquerades as "design". Stitching together great steaming piles of independently mutating libraries doesn't seem to produce good applications, does it?

A couple more things to preempt the fanbois:
No, Java is not fast. Java is a programming language. Virualized RISC machines can be fast within their own arenas and a lot of good work has gone into JIT compilers and the machines running underneath "Java". The claim does nothing but reveal your lack of knowledge and perspective.
And no, grunting out low-content scripts for a few years does not make anyone a designer or an architect. Building kludged-together boxes using Lego blocks doesn't make you a civil engineer or an architect either.

Re:I'll just come right out and say it. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38719222)

+-----+
| 7.8 |
+-----+
\_o_/
  |
|_JUDGE_|

Well played sir. Now let's see if you get any bites.

I just uninstalled JAVA... (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38719132)

...and it feels good man. No more wondering if those fucked up java plugins and extensions had enabled themselves again in browsers. It only remained this long to enable Azureus (aka Vuze) but that thing had turned into a monstrosity so I'll being going back to native code for my future bit-torrenting needs.

Re:I just uninstalled JAVA... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38719976)

Java fanbois out in force! Did one of you really just down-vote an anonymous coward post about someone escaping java plugin security risk hell? I think somebody's mortgage must depend on this language that a lot of people just got nervous about being invested in.

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