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HP To Open Source WebOS

samzenpus posted more than 2 years ago | from the get-it-while-it's-hot dept.

HP 137

First time accepted submitter pscottdv writes "This year the artists formerly known as Palm had quite a rough few months with HP dumping the hardware side of their own webOS mobile computing platform – their most recent move, having been announced just last month, is live today: open sourced webOS for all. While the actual main product which will be known as Open webOS 1.0 will not be released until September, they've already got the Enyo piece of the pie available today."

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iOS now has more marketshare than Android (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38823671)

It's official: iOS now has more marketshare than Android. Reuters reports that Apple completely erased Android's marketshare lead [reuters.com] , confirming earlier reports by both Nielsen [nielsen.com] and NPD [gigaom.com] . Over 150 Android smartphones couldn't outcompete the iPhone 4S. With 37 million iPhones sold last quarter, Apple is the largest smartphone marker, and their profits exceed Google’s entire revenue, $13 billion to $10.6 billion. Finally, with 15 million iPads sold last quarter, the tablet market is now larger than the entire desktop PC market.

Remember that Slashdot triumphantly posted in January 2011 about Android surpassing iOS in marketshare [slashdot.org] . A year later when the opposite happens? Not a peep. Talk about bias.

The clock is ticking, Fandroids.

Re:iOS now has more marketshare than Android (-1, Offtopic)

BasilBrush (643681) | more than 2 years ago | (#38823727)

It's official: iOS now has more marketshare than Android. Reuters reports that Apple completely erased Android's marketshare lead, confirming earlier reports by both Nielsen and NPD. Over 150 Android smartphones couldn't outcompete the iPhone 4S. With 37 million iPhones sold last quarter, Apple is the largest smartphone marker, and their profits exceed Googleâ(TM)s entire revenue, $13 billion to $10.6 billion. Finally, with 15 million iPads sold last quarter, the tablet market is now larger than the entire desktop PC market.

Remember that Slashdot triumphantly posted in January 2011 about Android surpassing iOS in marketshare. A year later when the opposite happens? Not a peep. Talk about bias.

The clock is ticking, Fandroids.

Fair comment.

Re:iOS now has more marketshare than Android (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38823767)

If by "fair" you mean completely off-topic and obvious troll, then yes, yes it is.

Re:iOS now has more marketshare than Android (5, Funny)

oodaloop (1229816) | more than 2 years ago | (#38823771)

What a strange sig, considering you not only replied to but agreed with an AC.

Re:iOS now has more marketshare than Android (-1, Offtopic)

BasilBrush (643681) | more than 2 years ago | (#38823875)

Even more interesting is the news that in the last quarter Mac unit sales grew 20% whilst PCs declined 8.5%.

It's good to see (mostly Windows) PCs on their way out, replaced by Macs.

Re:iOS now has more marketshare than Android (1)

flimflammer (956759) | more than 2 years ago | (#38824191)

Thanks for confirming you were the original AC. Not that it was particularly difficult to see in the first place.

Re:iOS now has more marketshare than Android (-1, Offtopic)

BasilBrush (643681) | more than 2 years ago | (#38824389)

No, I don't take credit for it. But if you want to believe that, that's OK by me.

Re:iOS now has more marketshare than Android (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38824211)

Good one. We'll all play in the no-mind sandbox Apple says we can. Another year and all these over-priced iAppliances will be looking for an upgrade that won't be there and PC's and droids will continue merrily along.

Re:iOS now has more marketshare than Android (2)

JonySuede (1908576) | more than 2 years ago | (#38824329)

no it's not !
I like the customization potential and the low cost that the generic PC provide to the experimented admins and power-users..

Annecdote:
I built an HTPC in a wodden case with spare part laying around my house. It is totally wife approved and it would be impossible to achieve that level of customization without jail-breaking an iThing. Spare parts, a licence I got at a random conf, XBMC, a few plugins I customized and a bunch of AutoIt scripts was all that was needed in the generic PC world.

Cost :
- 0$ as it was made of spare parts and spare woods...
- a weekend to have it working perfectly to my wife taste
Benefit:
- hacking is fun when work is :meeting,telephone,meeting,Visio,meeting,IM,email, a snippet of code, goto meeting
- an happy wife

Re:iOS now has more marketshare than Android (-1, Offtopic)

BasilBrush (643681) | more than 2 years ago | (#38824429)

That's OK. As PCs go increasingly out of style, there will be even more junk parts hanging around for your projects.

Meanwhile, most people just want a good computer in the case it came in. And the best of those are the Macs.

Re:iOS now has more marketshare than Android (1)

JonySuede (1908576) | more than 2 years ago | (#38824543)

But I dont want other people junk, I want to make my own ! ;)

Re:iOS now has more marketshare than Android (1)

Hognoxious (631665) | more than 2 years ago | (#38824697)

As an Apple fan I guess you've seen a lot of people's "junk", and plenty of "parts hanging around".

Re:iOS now has more marketshare than Android (-1, Offtopic)

BasilBrush (643681) | more than 2 years ago | (#38824771)

Yeah you're right. Apple users probably do get more sex and PC users are more likely to be homophobic.

Re:iOS now has more marketshare than Android (1)

justforgetme (1814588) | more than 2 years ago | (#38825827)

Error: Ambiguous goto label: "meeting"
program trace (nearest first)
1: goto meeting
________^
2:a snippet of code
3:email
4:IM
5:meeting
(output truncated)

Watch what you type people, there are puppies at stake!

Re:iOS now has more marketshare than Android (1)

anonymov (1768712) | more than 2 years ago | (#38824481)

Oh my, how optimistic. You're totally not mistaking sales growth with installed base share.

There's a billion or so PCs in the world with about 5% of them being Macs. With about 12 million Macs [usatoday.com] sold last year, it'll take just ~80 years to completely replace the PC - and that's if ~300 millions PC sales suddenly disappear.

Also note that it's not like decline in new sales means people throw PCs out of the window to replace them with Mac.

meh, wrong link (1)

anonymov (1768712) | more than 2 years ago | (#38824559)

Meant to paste this one [xbitlabs.com] .

Re:iOS now has more marketshare than Android (-1, Offtopic)

BasilBrush (643681) | more than 2 years ago | (#38824723)

Oh my, how optimistic. You're totally not mistaking sales growth with installed base share.

You're right I'm not mistaking it. I explicitly said unit sales growth and that's what I meant. Also known as market share.

There's a billion or so PCs in the world with about 5% of them being Macs. With about 12 million Macs sold last year, it'll take just ~80 years to completely replace the PC

Yeah right. Because those PCs will still be running in 80 years. And suddenly the growth in Mac unit sales is going to stop.

BTW your Mac sales is out of date. Over the last 12 months they've sold 17 million. Rapid growth you see.

Even more interestingly, going on last quarters Mac and PC unit sales, Apple has 18% of the worldwide market share. (Apple results/Gartner worldwide PC shipments).

Re:iOS now has more marketshare than Android (1)

anonymov (1768712) | more than 2 years ago | (#38824813)

You're right I'm not mistaking it. I explicitly said unit sales growth and that's what I meant. Also known as market share.

You explicitly said:

It's good to see (mostly Windows) PCs on their way out, replaced by Macs.

To say "PC is on the way out" you need to compare not sales and market share, but install base. That's why I said you're mistaken.

Yeah right. Because those PCs will still be running in 80 years. And suddenly the growth in Mac unit sales is going to stop.

No, they will extrapolate indefinitely and in some ten years there will be 1 bln. Macs sold annually. PC sales, on the other hand, will continue the negative growth and soon PC vendors will start taking computers away.

Windows PC desktop might be on its way out, though it's still not somewhere in the near future, but it surely won't be replaced by Macs. Even "Soon everyone will throw away PC and buy a tablet" (note the "a") sounds more reasonable than this.

Re:iOS now has more marketshare than Android (0)

BasilBrush (643681) | more than 2 years ago | (#38824981)

To say "PC is on the way out" you need to compare not sales and market share, but install base.

Not at all.

Windows PC desktop might be on its way out, though it's still not somewhere in the near future, but it surely won't be replaced by Macs. Even "Soon everyone will throw away PC and buy a tablet" (note the "a") sounds more reasonable than this.

Well of course if you include tablet sales, Apple's products displacing PCs will be even more rapid.

In fact if you include iPad sales in with Macs against PCs, Apple has about 40% of the worldwide market right now.

Re:iOS now has more marketshare than Android (1)

anonymov (1768712) | more than 2 years ago | (#38825225)

Where the hell do you get those numbers? Down there is AC with a Gartner link, check it.

There's 90M PCs shipped in Q4'11, 5M - or 5.5% - of those are Macs. Now if you include 15M iPads (and exclude Android tablets), yeah, you'll get ~20% market share Q4'11. Clearly shows Wintel desktop is dead, yup. Mere 80%.

Re:iOS now has more marketshare than Android (1)

Astronomerguy (1541977) | more than 2 years ago | (#38827263)

Are you saying that tablets are replacing PC's? That every tablet sold is a PC not purchased? Seriously? for 99.9% of consumer/business use, a tablet is a convenient accessory to a PC. Great for media consumption. Now go ahead and try and do some serious work. Coding? Photo editing? Movie Editing? Writing a long document or complex report? Et al ad nauseum. FWIW, I have a Touchpad, my wife has a shiny new iPad, and I have a custom-built-by-me enthusiast PC and a loaded laptop. The tablet has it's role: convenient web surfing, music, recipe file etc.

Re:iOS now has more marketshare than Android (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38824931)

Even more interestingly, going on last quarters Mac and PC unit sales, Apple has 18% of the worldwide market share. (Apple results/Gartner worldwide PC shipments).

What [gartner.com] .

4Q11, Apple - 11% U.S., somewhere with "Others" worldwide.

Count for yourself, 352,806,984 total shipped last year and you mentioned 17,000,000 Macs sold yourself.

Re:iOS now has more marketshare than Android (2)

hairyfeet (841228) | more than 2 years ago | (#38824817)

Actually I think you're wrong, and here is why: Most PCs have gotten "good enough" so people simply aren't buying new ones. that Pentium D or Athlon X2 they bought in 06 is still fine for webmail, YouTube, and FB, which is what the majority are doing so they simply aren't buying because compared to the jobs they have their current PCs are insanely overpowered. hell i sold my full size laptop and bought an E-350 netbook, could i have afforded bigger? Not a problem but i realized that my laptop was twiddling its thumbs a good 90% of the time so what's the point?

The Macs are selling on the other hand because they finally started selling some of them below the $1000 price point. I'd love to see the numbers broken down by price as i'd bet my last buck the vast majority of OSX's gains are below $1000 units. In a way its the same thing we are seeing with tablets now, where many that would have bought one were turned off by the price but now we are seeing all these nice sub $250 Android tablets the sales are climbing, same thing. those that held off because they couldn't see paying $2k+ for a Mac are jumping on now that the price has dropped and i expect you'll see this continue for probably a year until those that wanted one have one then the sales will drop again.

Funnily enough that'll be about the time you'll see Windows PCs jump like mad thanks to the "great XP dieoff" reaching a head. Right now most shops will tell you its just a trickle but as it gets closer to Apr 2014 that trickle will become a flood as all those people that thought their current PC was 'good enough" decide they'd rather buy a new one than pay to upgrade their old. the first to go were the late model P4s but now the early Pentium Ds and Athlon X2s are starting to make an appearance, can't way for the early core duo laptops to start showing up.

As for WebOS, stick a fork she be done. cell phones simply aren't like desktops, you can just stick any old thing on there and get it to work as all the drivers are proprietary and the network is locked down. while i liked the UI of WebOS without OEMs actually supplying drivers and handsets for it to run on i don't see it going anywhere and HP drug its feet and killed most of the buzz. final prediction? in less than 2 years it'll be another abandoned project on SourceForge.

Re:iOS now has more marketshare than Android (0)

BasilBrush (643681) | more than 2 years ago | (#38824947)

I'd love to see the numbers broken down by price as i'd bet my last buck the vast majority of OSX's gains are below $1000 units.

Well we can get the average price is easy enough. Divide Mac revenue by units in the Apple results. Answer $1282.

In a way its the same thing we are seeing with tablets now, where many that would have bought one were turned off by the price but now we are seeing all these nice sub $250 Android tablets the sales are climbing, same thing.

But people aren't buying those sub-$250 tablets. They're buying $500 iPads.

those that held off because they couldn't see paying $2k+ for a Mac

I don't remember a time when there weren't sub $1000 Macs. Certainly not in the last decade.

Right now most shops will tell you its just a trickle but as it gets closer to Apr 2014 that trickle will become a flood as all those people that thought their current PC was 'good enough" decide they'd rather buy a new one than pay to upgrade their old.

Increasingly those people are buying Macs instead of PCs. 18% of them worldwide. Something rather higher than that in the US.

Re:iOS now has more marketshare than Android (1)

semi-extrinsic (1997002) | more than 2 years ago | (#38826593)

Well we can get the average price is easy enough. Divide Mac revenue by units in the Apple results. Answer $1282.

Hi. I think you need to understand the concept of the median [wikipedia.org] . Statistics 101 is not a bad idea. Also, outliers [wikipedia.org] is the fancy name for those $3k Apple workstations that people working in movie-editing buy, which are causing your distribution to be skewed [wikipedia.org] .

Re:iOS now has more marketshare than Android (2)

DrXym (126579) | more than 2 years ago | (#38827129)

But people aren't buying those sub-$250 tablets. They're buying $500 iPads.

Well clearly they are or they wouldn't be on sale in dozens of form factors and price points from generic no-name chinese models, to Amazon Kindle / B&N Nook tablets and pushing upwards through $250 to Asus, Acer, Lenovo, Samsung tablets. One of the advantages of Android is that it doesn't dictate the price, features, form factor, quality, storage or anything else that a tablet running it has. That means tablets to suit all tastes and pockets and it is reflected in sales with some people buying a cheap tablet and others buying a more expensive tablet, either an iPad or one of the more prominent Android based models.

Indeed tablet sales for the last 3 months of 2011 were 57% iPad and 43% other, mostly Android. 57% is still a formidable amount but it's dropping substantially in much the same way as happened with phones. I expect the market share will continue to drop for Apple regardless of what comes out this year.

Re:iOS now has more marketshare than Android (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38823789)

So a flamebait with mod points has been posting this same text on recent news and modding itself up. Brilliant spamming solution.

Re:iOS now has more marketshare than Android (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38823831)

def greatbunzinni()
if $target != $my_opinion and get_rating($target) > -1 then
        call conspiracy_accusation()
end
return

Re:iOS now has more marketshare than Android (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38824313)

a) offtopic comment in a dozent recent articles, gets modded up here
b) AC calls it flamebait and spam without calling out any names
c) you pop up and imply that's Great Bunzinni (as you do in your other copy pasted spam), GGP was modded up justly and not offtopic here, and claim GP was "conspiracy accusation". Get modded up for this.

Nope, you're definitely not same person.

Now go on and call me Great Bunzinni too.

Merry Christmas Geeks!!! (0)

GodfatherofSoul (174979) | more than 2 years ago | (#38823677)

Ooooh yeah!

Organized trolling campaign by GreatBunzinni (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38823687)

GreatBunzinni [slashdot.org] has been posting anonymous accusations [slashdot.org] listing a whole bunch of Slashdot accounts as being part of a marketing campaign for Microsoft, without any evidence. GreatBunzinni has accidentally outed himself [slashdot.org] as this anonymous poster. Half the accounts he attacks don't even post pro-Microsoft rhetoric. The one thing they appear to have in common is that they have been critical of Google in the past. GreatBunzinni has been using multiple accounts to post these "shill" accusations, such as Galestar [slashdot.org] , NicknameOne [slashdot.org] , and flurp [slashdot.org] .

That's not the problem. The problem is that moderators gave him +5 Informative and are now modding down the accused, even for legitimate posts. Metamoderation is supposed to address this by filtering out the bad moderators, but clearly it's not working.

This "shill" crap that has been flying around lately has to stop. It's restricting a variety of viewpoints from participating on the site and creating an echo chamber.

Slashdot is dead (0, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38823691)

Infiltrated by Google employees and well-wishers, Slashdot consistently offers justifications for every bad behavior and terrible decision coming from Google. Just look at the privacy changes article in which fanboys banded together to make sure Google was perceived as the good guy and that anyone critical of them was modbombed.

Just to recap, Google is a multibillion dollar advertising megacorporation that was caught by the German government sniffing people's wifi data (they "accidentally" did it for three years before admitting it only when authorities threatened an investigation), forced people to use real names on Google+ and admitted it was an identity service and not a social network, stuffed Google+ results into the search engine without any competing social networks even though they have those networks indexed by the search engine (hello, Microsoft tactics), said that the only people who care about privacy "have something to hide," hacked into Mocality to call its customers, removed H.264 support in Chrome out of "openness" only to turn around ship the closed-source Flash plugin, withheld Android source from the public but shared it with privileged hardware partners so they could have a leg up, abused their Android compatibility program to make things difficult for smartphone makers who chose Bing instead of Google, and on and on and on.

With all this crap they pull that would get them completely trashed if they were Microsoft or any other company, there's one reason and one reason only that they have been propped up as the good guy on Slashdot all these years--Linux. They use Linux. Slashdot is a Linux advocacy site, and so because Google uses Linux, they are good guys and get a pass for everything. That's all it takes to get Slashdot to love you. Just use Linux.

Hypocrites. When Microsoft used their Windows monopoly revenues to fund development of Internet Explorer and release it for free to try to dominate the web market, everyone here cried "antitrust!" But when Google uses its web search monopoly revenues to fund development of Android and release it for free to try to dominate smartphones, everyone defends it. For anyone who was on Slashdot during those times, to see Google doing all the very same things Microsoft did but get a completely different reaction is surreal.

Slashdot is a bubble. You only get pro-Google, pro-Linux news. Major news occurring elsewhere is often days late, if it gets reported at all. The Google+ search results fiasco is huge all over the tech sites right now, but there's nothing about it here, as if it doesn't even exist as a controversy. And did you know iOS surpassed Android in marketshare by the end of 2011 according to three research firms? With how obsessed Slashdot is over marketshare, and how they constantly trumpeted Android's marketshare all the time as a victory last year, you'd think it would be big news. But, no. This is pro-Google territory, pro-Linux territory. Gotta keep the natives happy for more page views.

This will get modded down because trolls have taken over the moderation system and openly subvert it. That's fine. It just proves my point about how Slashdot reacts to anything outside the partyline. This site's news reporting is old, antiquated, and slow, but the news isn't even why people come here anymore. The part of the community still remaining (after its years-long exodus to Reddit, Hacker News, and other sites, which is why traffic has decreased so dramatically on most Slashdot stories today) only comes here to pat themselves on the back for thinking a certain way. "Yeah, Microsoft is still evil! Yeah, Google is still the good guy! Yeah, Apple is still for chumps!" It's the year 2000 forever on Slashdot.

Re:Slashdot is dead (1, Offtopic)

mbkennel (97636) | more than 2 years ago | (#38824347)

"When Microsoft used their Windows monopoly revenues to fund development of Internet Explorer and release it for free to try to dominate the web market, everyone here cried "antitrust!""

It was the bundling it with Windows and concomitant development of proprietary MS only extensions that were the real problems.

Google (so far) isn't doing the rough equivalents: they aren't restricting use of Google search to Chrome, and they aren't pushing a plethora of obviously Google-only APIs to make websites work on Chrome-only. If they did, then they'd be like Microsoft 1998.

They're making Chrome so that they can make and sell Google Apps and be sure that there will be a way to run Google Apps which doesn't suck too much.

Of course, Google is mini-evil to meso-evil (on the scale where Facebook is full-on-evil) on privacy and creepy data collection.

Re:Slashdot is dead (1, Troll)

hairyfeet (841228) | more than 2 years ago | (#38824841)

No they are just spamming the living shit out of the thing by paying every freeware author and his cat and his cat's squeaky toy to include Chrome in the installer with default checked. i don't know how many Chrome "infections' I've had to clean in the past 6 months because of that shit but frankly its getting old. i didn't like it when it was sun spamming java, didn't like it when it was MSFT spamming bingBar, don't like it now that its Google spamming Chrome. spam is spam is spam and it sucks.

Re:Slashdot is dead (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38824465)

With all this crap they pull that would get them completely trashed if they were Microsoft or any other company, there's one reason and one reason only that they have been propped up as the good guy on Slashdot all these years--Linux. They use Linux. Slashdot is a Linux advocacy site, and so because Google uses Linux, they are good guys and get a pass for everything.

Nah, you're off base on this one.

It's also because they have that stupid inane slogan "Don't Be Evil". Amazingly, Slashdot geeks flocked in droves and still maintain "they mean it!".

In other news, Google is rumored to be contemplating selling not only the Brooklyn Bridge, but also the Eiffel Tower, Westminster Cathedral, the Great Pyramids, and Burkina Faso. Slashdot geeks wet themselves when they heard this and have been queuing to get in line to buy them. When someone raised the question of whether Google actually owned them, the crowd beat him to death with illegally pirated copies of Linux source code and vowed to never again let Google be subject to such scurrilous accusations.

Re:Slashdot is dead (1)

mwvdlee (775178) | more than 2 years ago | (#38826391)

Quite an interresting point about WebOS you make there.

Well, that's nice .. but (4, Insightful)

ackthpt (218170) | more than 2 years ago | (#38823709)

Yet another large open source project to further tax the talent pool? I wonder how much attention it will get.

Re:Well, that's nice .. but (2)

SeximusMaximus (1207526) | more than 2 years ago | (#38823717)

So you don't want more things opened up - seems counter intuitive?

Re:Well, that's nice .. but (4, Interesting)

Daniel_Staal (609844) | more than 2 years ago | (#38823759)

Probably not much, really. But it had some nice things, and is also based on a Linux core. So, hopefully, there will be some cross-polination with Android.

If my Pre was still working, I'd probably still be running it. I'd miss a couple of apps from Android, but overall I prefer the Pre. But there's nothing that couldn't be moved/implemented in Android, if the licensing problems are out of the way.

Re:Well, that's nice .. but (4, Interesting)

Microlith (54737) | more than 2 years ago | (#38823813)

But it had some nice things, and is also based on a Linux core. So, hopefully, there will be some cross-polination with Android.

Android is so insular I don't expect anything to make the leap. The webOS core was so close to a common Linux platform (sdl, glibc, etc.) that games transplanted relatively easily to Maemo. If anything, you could see some cross pollination with initiatives like Mer [merproject.org] or Tizen, once Samsung and Intel get that off the ground.

Re:Well, that's nice .. but (2, Insightful)

tomhudson (43916) | more than 2 years ago | (#38823869)

Yet another large open source project to further tax the talent pool? I wonder how much attention it will get.

From devs? None - HP is open-sourcing it because it's DEAD.

From everyone else? We need a good laugh (or cry) now and then ...

If HP could make a nickel out of it, or find a buyer for it, they would.

Re:Well, that's nice .. but (1)

rbmyers (587296) | more than 2 years ago | (#38823871)

One has the sinking feeling that the window is closing on open source. There are fewer incentives to contribute and enormous incentives to create intellectual property, which is all that interests venture capitalists.

Re:Well, that's nice .. but (1)

ackthpt (218170) | more than 2 years ago | (#38823935)

One has the sinking feeling that the window is closing on open source. There are fewer incentives to contribute and enormous incentives to create intellectual property, which is all that interests venture capitalists.

It isn't that, it's yet-another-operating system. I'm sure it has some nice features, which people would like to incorporate into other enviroments, but how much have you heard about BeOS lately? It largely ran out of gas about 10 years back.

Re:Well, that's nice .. but (2)

unixisc (2429386) | more than 2 years ago | (#38826759)

WebOS ain't BeOS. BeOS was an OS developed from scratch, whereas WebOS is a Linux distro.

Re:Well, that's nice .. but (4, Informative)

somersault (912633) | more than 2 years ago | (#38823969)

Good thing some of us like to actually do things for fun every now and then. The Open Source philosophy isn't about making money, it's about sharing knowledge.

Re:Well, that's nice .. but (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38825309)

+1 mod points if I had 'em. At last count there's 7 OS' s in use (as in "actually used") in my house right now, and 4 more being played with in virtualization. 2 of 'em are WebOS and Android on a TouchPad.

Re:Well, that's nice .. but (5, Insightful)

dgatwood (11270) | more than 2 years ago | (#38825831)

Good thing some of us like to actually do things for fun every now and then. The Open Source philosophy isn't about making money, it's about sharing knowledge.

No disagreement. That's certainly why I write open source. That and because I need to get things done anyway, so I might as well make it available in case it can help somebody else.

That said (and I'm probably going to get modded down for this), this is also one of the reasons why there is so much open source software out there that is of lesser quality than similar commercial software. Make no mistake, there are plenty of great open source apps and drivers and kernels and daemons out there, but for every one that's a gem, there are a hundred more that are so-so, and a thousand more that are complete crap. The reason for this is, to a large extent, because most of the folks working on it are creating things for fun, for themselves, whatever, and when they get things working well enough to do the job, they do no further work on the project. The result is a whole truckload of abandonware.

More importantly, because the developers often just need to get something working well enough to get something done, maintainability is often the last thing on their minds, resulting in some incredibly bad code. I've seen copious amounts of code in fairly significant open source projects over the years that was so bad, it made me want to cry.

I actually had such an experience just a couple of days ago (on a project that will remain nameless), with code that pre-defined macros for things like SIZEOF_LONG instead of just doing sizeof(long), resulting in the absolute inability to do single-pass compilation of multi-architecture (fat) binaries until I ripped all that crap out. I would have understood that sort of thing ten years ago, but this was top-of-tree in their git repo. Apparently nobody told these developers that there is exactly zero runtime penalty to using sizeof(), and thus absolutely no good reason to predefine macros with hard-coded sizes.... *sigh*

Of course, these sorts of problems occur in the commercial world as well, but the abandonware is more common in the open source world, largely because the barriers to entry are so much lower. You don't have to hire a team of ten people to develop an open source tool—you just write it in your spare time—so there's no real financial incentive not to abandon it when you no longer need to use it yourself, and there's no real financial incentive to ensure that the software is portable, maintainable, or extensible.

Admittedly, the abandonware is less catastrophic in the open source world because you can ostensibly fix it yourself, at least up to the point where code rot makes this impractical, but combined with the open source community's apparent disdain for API contracts and backwards compatibility guarantees, code rot hits open source a lot faster than closed source, which counteracts much of that benefit after only a few years. Just last week, I encountered some fairly fundamental API breakage while updating software written only about a year or two ago, to the point that it required some serious backporting to make things even compile—the function name was the same, but with a very different list of parameters, data types, etc. That's just unacceptable, and leads to serious long-term maintainability problems for anyone who isn't willing to constantly live on the bleeding edge of everything.

And then, there's the general sloppiness of data types. Good code doesn't use types like int or long most of the time, because you can't rely on their sizes. That's why we have inttypes.h. No code that has been touched in the past five years should be using those data types, period, because the results are simply not portable. Yet as recently as a few days ago, I ran into "assert(sizeof(long) == sizeof(uint32_t));". Not even a compile-time failure. A runtime failure. Like I said, some of the worst code I've ever seen comes from open source projects. Pulling that kind of crap often enough will get you fired in any company with a code review policy.

What the open source world needs most of all are more large foundations that hire developers to write open source software, with actual managers to enforce policies for robustness, secure coding practices, extensibility, etc. Large projects have a lot of this already. The problem is all the smaller projects. If a foundation existed that paid one-man, two-man, and three-man open-source project teams, we'd have a lot less bad open source code out there, or at least much better percentages.

Re:Well, that's nice .. but (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38826663)

Really? I thought it was just about trolling Microsoft?

Re:Well, that's nice .. but (1)

somersault (912633) | more than 2 years ago | (#38826941)

Sarcasm does not become you, AC.

Re:Well, that's nice .. but (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38826049)

This has *ALWAYS* been true. Since the dawn of open source projects at MIT, the whole point of open source has been to provide an alternative to software-as-commodity. Regardless of the financial efficacy of open source, the movement will always be powered primarily by a belief that software should not be a commodity.

"Software Engineers" call open source a "development strategy," but these buffoons* sorely misunderstand the social fabric of open source communities. Open source doesn't thrive because it's a an optimal method for producing software. Open source thrives because some people care more about humanity than about profit. And this personal, human investment -- not a list of buzzwords from hyped up CS spinoffs -- is what makes OS effective.

* If you want some fun, read Dijstra's opinion of software engineering as a discipline!

Re:Well, that's nice .. but (4, Insightful)

hey! (33014) | more than 2 years ago | (#38824503)

And exactly how is the talent pool ever supposed to expand without a few blue water projects where a ambitious young developer can go out win himself some glory, instead of having his patches being sneered at by the old boys club?

Re:Well, that's nice .. but (2)

SuiteSisterMary (123932) | more than 2 years ago | (#38824527)

Ah yes. Open Source: The freedom to use what we tell you to use. Sorry, Bazaar's full.

Open Source support already exists (4, Interesting)

James McP (3700) | more than 2 years ago | (#38824595)

While WebOS is not yet open sourced, the operating system is sufficiently open and accessible that there is a significant open source community devoted to it: WebOS Internals (http://www.webos-internals.org) They have hundreds of OS tweaks (called "patches"), custom kernels, new services, apps, etc. Furthermore, WOSI worked with HP to develop the roadmap for open sourcing WebOS.

One of the big things that releasing this framework does is let existing WebOS developers quickly port their apps to Android and possibly iOS and WP7. It may be counter intuitive, but giving developers a way to produce apps for other platforms actually keeps them in the WebOS community. There are already WebOS apps that have been ported to Android (http://www.webosnation.com/first-open-source-enyo-app-jumping-other-platforms-paper-mache-android-flashcards-everywhere). This means that the good WebOS devs (and there are several) will get to keep developing WebOS apps that quickly cross-compile to Android.

Re:Open Source support already exists (1)

WiiVault (1039946) | more than 2 years ago | (#38825405)

Right on man. WebOS is really a huge opportunity for those who want OSS without a monolith like Google (or Apple) to run the show

Re:Open Source support already exists (1)

unixisc (2429386) | more than 2 years ago | (#38826765)

Maybe, but the monolith is what makes it successful.

Re:Well, that's nice .. but (1)

the linux geek (799780) | more than 2 years ago | (#38824765)

What other open-source, open-development mobile OS is there? Android is just regular code dumps from Google and Tizen barely exists...

Re:Well, that's nice .. but (1)

UpnAtom (551727) | more than 2 years ago | (#38827619)

Maemo and Meego are still going strong.

http://talk.maemo.org/index.php [maemo.org]

Re:Well, that's nice .. but (1)

phantomfive (622387) | more than 2 years ago | (#38824925)

There are plenty of people out there who might be interested in working on it. To understand how big the open source talent pool is, check out this page of people who made their own OS (more or less) [osdev.org] . Open source doesn't lack developers, think how many Windows Managers there are, and those take a lot of effort. It lacks people who know how to put polish on a product.

If the processes and government of WebOS are more open than Android, it may well gather more developers than Android. That is the true democracy of the marketplace of ideas.

Or maybe HP will release it 'open' with some restrictive license. Then wonder why everyone ignores them.

Not really an issue (1)

LostMyBeaver (1226054) | more than 2 years ago | (#38826195)

Projects like this tend to attract mainly programmers who would work on something obscure anyway. People who will make themselves seem special like the guys who were still using Acorn computers 10 years after the company died and while unable to accomplish anything useful on them, would insist on using them for all their daily tasks. Sure, when Acorn was in production it was quite advanced and really fancy... but so was Motif and CDE... which looked like dinosaurs a year after KDE and Gnome came around, yet people kept using it.

Point being, the people who insist on being the Open WebOS people will spend a bunch of time on it, but they wouldn't have really furthered any other projects that much. The OpenSource community is driven by a handful of major projects of which most have corporate backing. WebOS, well I don't see any companies investing heavily in its future.

Re:Well, that's nice .. but (2)

dutchd00d (823703) | more than 2 years ago | (#38826493)

I wonder how much attention it will get.

Realistically? None. But the alternative is that HP sticks the whole project on a tape, plasters it with copyright notices and lets is rot for ever more in a vault somewhere. So good for them for open sourcing it.

Re:Well, that's nice .. but (1)

unixisc (2429386) | more than 2 years ago | (#38826747)

The good thing here is that it's competition for Android. Previously, some people were uneasy about the delay in the source code being made available, although that's finally happened. But now, w/ Open WebOS FOSS, Android would need good reasons for not opening up, since people could turn to WebOS if Android doesn't satisfy them.

I don't think it'll necessarily tax the talent pool, since both are Linux - unless there is a major difference in the dev toolkit used to make Android apps vs WebOS apps. Good thing is that third party tablet makers will have the choice of Android or WebOS while determining how to differentiate their products. WebOS could well get to #3 this way - ahead of RIM and Windows 8 on ARM, and no longer be dependent on a fickle HP.

So, in terms of platforms, now we have, aside from iOS

  • Android
  • WebOS
  • Ubuntu tablets
  • Other Linux or BSD?
  • RIM/QNX
  • Windows 8

License? (1)

unixisc (2429386) | more than 2 years ago | (#38826749)

Forgot to ask - what license will Open WebOS be released under?

Where's the beef? (2, Insightful)

jpwilliams (2430348) | more than 2 years ago | (#38823741)

Why would a developer work on this when there are other, more widely adopted platforms to develop on?

Re:Where's the beef? (1, Insightful)

oodaloop (1229816) | more than 2 years ago | (#38823777)

Listen buddy, the egg came first. That's where the chicken came from, OK?

Re:Where's the beef? (2)

bogaboga (793279) | more than 2 years ago | (#38823901)

Hey dude,

Some eggs are diseased. Others never hatch! WebOS is one of the two. Pick one.

Re:Where's the beef? (2)

Microlith (54737) | more than 2 years ago | (#38823863)

Why would a developer work on this when there are other, more widely adopted platforms to develop on?

I know, why would anyone ever challenge an incumbent?

Re:Where's the beef? (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38823879)

Because "widely adopted" is a moving target. RIM was a huge market player at one point, as was Palm. Same thing can happen to Android and ios. Maybe people will get tired of privacy violations via Google or price gouging via Apple. No one really knows.

Having a true Linux core ain't bad though. Linux pretty much just refuses to die. So webos at least has that going for it.

Re:Where's the beef? (1)

amRadioHed (463061) | more than 2 years ago | (#38824039)

Because "widely adopted" is a moving target. RIM was a huge market player at one point, as was Palm. Same thing can happen to Android and ios. Maybe people will get tired of privacy violations via Google....

If Android uses got tired of Google's influence on Android, that is still no motive to move to iOS. There are already plenty of popular Android releases based on Android Open Source Project which give you total control over how much Google is in your phone.

Re:Where's the beef? (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38825951)

It really was just an example. People can choose to quit using something for any number of reasons, a lot which would seem absurd to experienced users like yourself. While you and other slashdot users might flash a new OS, most people will throw it in the trash and buy a competitor.

My point was that OP's "keep the status quo!" argument is largely moot. To suggest that someone shouldn't be writing for a "dead system" is a little douchebaggy. Tech writers are paid to write stuff like that. Users should know better. We've seen dead systems become dominant systems.

Re:Where's the beef? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38823919)

Because webOS is better. Or so myself and some other users think. See it's great to have a choice and all based on personal preference.

Re:Where's the beef? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38824343)

ehhhhh.... because there's giraffes that eat from the top of the tree, where the other animals can't reach. There are quite a few WebOS users out there, with money in their pockets. Why go for the heavily contested iOS and Android markets if you can have a WebOS and be top-selling? For instance, I only know of 2 Tweeting apps for WebOS that work with the TouchPad.

Re:Where's the beef? (1)

poity (465672) | more than 2 years ago | (#38825007)

Is it really that hard to port to WebOS? Besides, WebOS users are starving for good apps, so it's a good opportunity to carve out a niche. Settling into a good niche is often more profitable than squabbling with the big boys.

Re:Where's the beef? (1)

Rossman (593924) | more than 2 years ago | (#38825279)

If its faster and better than whatever out there, why not give it a shot?

From what I understand the mobile js frameworks out there so far still leave a lot to be desired.

Re:Where's the beef? (2)

grcumb (781340) | more than 2 years ago | (#38825325)

Why would a developer work on this when there are other, more widely adopted platforms to develop on?

Ask Linus why he didn't just stick with Minix or SCO Unix, or bloody well install Windows on his 386.

Some people are just perversely obstinate about wanting to have things exactly thus and so. Some people don't give a damn whether what they're doing will be popular or not; they just want things to work their way. We call those people geeks.

Re:Where's the beef? (1)

Astronomerguy (1541977) | more than 2 years ago | (#38825345)

Gee...lets take that logic to the hackneyed metaphor of...the automobile! "Why would anyone want to work on an Aston Martin Coupe when the minivan or the Reliant "K" car is in such wide use?" Get it now? No? Then let me spell it out in small words for ya: "Widely adopted" i.e Windows, OS/X etc does not always equate to the best. See "'reality' TV". Does that help a teensy-weensy bit...?

Re:Where's the beef? (1)

CAIMLAS (41445) | more than 2 years ago | (#38825347)

Why not?

Cases in point:
* Mint Linux
* lighttpd
* memtest86+
* KVM
* OpenNebula
* Android

And lest we not forget:
* Linux
* FreeBSD

And so on and so forth. Options are good. If nobody stepped out into the street, sure - nobody would get hit by the a bus. But then, nobody would cross the street, either (except at approved crosswalks).

Enyo information is at enyojs.com (5, Informative)

mbessey (304651) | more than 2 years ago | (#38823755)

There's a new enyojs.com website [enyojs.com] , where you can read about Enyo and try out some example apps, as well as downloading the current version.

Slashdot to Open Source DupeOS (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38823877)

HP Making WebOS Open Source [slashdot.org] - December 9.

Re:Slashdot to Open Source DupeOS (5, Informative)

spiderbitendeath (577712) | more than 2 years ago | (#38823925)

HP announced they were open sourcing it last month, which it says in the summary. It doesn't explain well that HP today laid out their plans, with release dates, for a complete open source webOS. As well as released the Enyo framework, across multiple platforms. Already seeing apps running in browsers and on Android based on it. Today is the actual start of them opening up the source on things. http://precentral.net/ [precentral.net] - Multiple articles up today detailing everything that was released today.

Late (3, Insightful)

amiga3D (567632) | more than 2 years ago | (#38823887)

If they had done this from the start I believe they would have fared much better.

Re:Late (4, Funny)

tomhudson (43916) | more than 2 years ago | (#38824051)

If they had done this from the start I believe they would have fared much better.

This is HP we're talking about. The US version of shoot-yourself-in-the-foot RIM.

Re:Late (2)

jd2112 (1535857) | more than 2 years ago | (#38824767)

If they had done this from the start I believe they would have fared much better.

This is HP we're talking about. The US version of shoot-yourself-in-the-foot RIM.

And HP CEOs trend to be as incompetent as both RIM CEOs put together.

Re:Late (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38825425)

Unfair. RIM's CEOs are not incompetent: for quite a few years they developed a company that was game-changing. Ok, so they couldn't hold up to actual change speed and competition, and needed to be replaced, but that -at the least- is a sign of wisdom, not incompetence.

Re:Late (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38825585)

That's unfair. RIM is at least struggling in the right direction, just doing so poorly. HP, on the other hand, has been busy committing suicide in public view. I'd say HP is more like the US version of give-away-your-firstborn Nokia.

Re:Late (1)

tomhudson (43916) | more than 2 years ago | (#38825669)

Did you see the lame replacement for CEO at RIM? As inspiring as 2-week-old lettuce. This is not a leader - not when you know the world, your employees, and your partners are watching. Even Monkeyboy knows that you've got to look like you have enough of a pulse to fog a mirror.

Re:Late (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38826285)

It's the sad truth, when it comes to HP.

Http://www.help2pc.com

Re:Late (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38825013)

Yeah, those 5 extra customers surely would have prevented the death of WebOS devices.

Comments in every topic now. (1, Offtopic)

flimflammer (956759) | more than 2 years ago | (#38824253)

It's almost interesting how off-topic the first several topics of articles have become these days. You get random google bashing, accusations on trolling, mac praising, and what have you in the first posts, in articles entirely unrelated to these comments.

Are trolls trolling trolls trolling shills trolling?

Re:Comments in every topic now. (3, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38824759)

They do ot so the mods will waste their points. Then they come back later to lay down the anti-open source 'turf with impunity. Oldest waggener edstrom trick in the book.

Everyone is complaining on how this is doomed... (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38824263)

But there are hundreds here that enjoy WebOS, and find it vastly superior to Android in a lot of ways. Hell, first thing I'll do is work to get it on my Galaxy S2. Android can learn a lot from WebOS. In time perhaps they will merge the good from both, into a mobile OS that is on par with iOS in usability.

Re:Everyone is complaining on how this is doomed.. (1)

Ol Olsoc (1175323) | more than 2 years ago | (#38824985)

I got one of the Touchpads on sale with a HP laptop. This is a good machine, and the updates have taken care of the complaints that people have lodged against it. Only thing is it's a fingerprint magnet on the back side. Big deal.

But WebOS within itself is a decent OS. Some things feel a bit unfinished, but nothing like I'd been told to expect. I had originally bought the device planning to install Android on it. But I'll just wait until Ice cream sandwich comes out, and then have a dual boot machine. The fire sales got a lot of machines out there, and I wouldn't doubt that new machines running the OS might be in the offing.

And as a long time Mac user, I'm not at all in agreement with the idea that there will be one to rule them all, and in the darkness bind them.

Re:Everyone is complaining on how this is doomed.. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38826023)

you got to be kidding. This thing sucks so much I could replace my Dyson with it. To type on it, as I'm doing now, is worse than typing on an iphone, drunk, on a traffic jam, in a motorbike. The thing is so damn slow and unresponsive as a 386sx with 1mb running emacs.

Simple things as keyboard responsiveness and click accuracy seem to be absent. Copy and paste fails half the time, even when it says stuff was copied. Don't get me started on text selection, sound quircks or missing messages on the chat application, or sound/video quality on the video/phone app.

I've never used an android tablet, so they might be as well as bad. But compared to the iPad 1, this thing is a complete piece of beta software (oh and the patches from the community are absent on the latest release. Apart from that, I am using everything - new kernel, overclock, govnah , etc)

Reinventing the wheel ... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38824589)

I see a lot of posts about why HP is dumping it into the open .... if people will bother with it .... what dev would actually work with it ....

Between WebOS, and pretty much every other FOSS platform device environment (meego.. ?) out there I have to wonder just how much the wheel being reinveted?

I'd argue that the 'strongest' future-proof environment will survive, but it seems to be the one with the most monetary backing. I'd say design has little to do with it these days.

It takes some WebOS... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38824795)

To give this gift to the world, instead of selling it to an equity investor.

WoW! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38825625)

So ... HP has yet to figure out how to extract their right-foot from their back oroface .. i.e. their ass hole.

Wonders of wonders.

This company really knows how to fuck themselves rightly and the laughs just keep on cuming.

Open source eh? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38826215)

Nokia tried that with Symbian... what happened?

First, Symbian^4 was scrapped.
Mister Oily Pecker was replaced with an ex-Microsoft man.
Then, Meego was hyped up, and then cast aside for WP7 (Stephen Elop's burning platform memo).
The Symbian Foundation was turned into a licensing body.
Finally, Symbian was cast into the software graveyard called Accenture.

Moral of the story: it doesn't matter how good or open your OS is.
When no one is using it, when there are few or no new devices running it, it'll die with a whimper.
Poignant, but true.

Hardware support (2)

mwvdlee (775178) | more than 2 years ago | (#38826455)

Besides the tablets no longer sold, is there any hardware that can run WebOS?

Too little too late (4, Interesting)

bluec (1427065) | more than 2 years ago | (#38826637)

I was a massive fan of Palm and wrote several years ago (around 2005, website now defunct) about the need for Palm to ditch Palm OS and develop their own Linux based OS. As such I was thrilled when WebOS launched - I had a launch day Pre and Pre 2. WebOS was admittedly pretty terrible until WebOS 1.4.5 but that release ironed out a lot of bugs and there was a short period in 2010 where it looked like Palm may crack it - they hired some great talent and partnered with some of the big devs to bring their apps to WebOS; sometimes for free (Monopoly, The Sims, Need for Speed, etc). The card-based system was intuitive and offered true multi-tasking that still isn't matched by any current mobile OS - it was truly groundbreaking stuff. Unfortunately Palm never had the resources to build on that success and it is sad to how subsequently lost their way.

What happened next was a total mess - the biggest downfall was how they alienated developers by changing the SDK from Mojo to Enyo - possibly a required change but the way they handled it was appalling. There was a long period when Enyo was released but it was impossible to even buy a device that ran it and the SDK was not even available to devs without jumping through hoops to sign an NDA. They then made promises to bring Enyo to their first and second generation devices and subsequently changed their mind. They never got round to publishing a roadmap of which hardware would support which SDK or WebOS. Developers had the choice to develop for Mojo and hit the majority of devices, or blindly put their faith in Enyo and hope that someday HP/Palm would put out a decent device capable of running Enyo. But by this time nobody believed a word HP said... they had lost the trust of their own loyal fanbase. Eventually the Pre 3 and Touchpad came but by then the developers had left in droves. I bought a Pre 3 and the hardware was finally decent, but the OS was buggy and there were even fewer apps available for it than for the previous generation Pre and Pre 2. I sold it immediately.

The sell-out to HP could have given Palm the resources they needed to push WebOS but it turned Palm from a nimble company capable of doing some cool stuff into a massive lumbering mess with no clearly defined plans. The signs of the downfall were obvious - the good talent that Palm had hired left almost immediately leaving a skill vacuum at HP/Palm. HP needed to act quickly but they failed to do so. And we all saw the shambolic mess they made of the touchpad launch and subsequent fire sale. Open sourcing WebOS is meaningless because it is a failed project with very little interest except a small (and highly loyal) fan base at WebOS internals. Even those guys must be wondering why they bothered.

The only good thing to come of this is that I got a touchpad for £130 that now runs ICS very nicely. It's a great shame to see the Palm name die in such a catastrophic manner. HP should be ashamed of themselves. And one last thing... throughout all this I have often wondered what happened to Jon Rubinstein? Has he been paid off to keep quiet? I would imagine he is none too happy with the way things turned out but his silence is deafening.

Card swiping (1)

ThatsNotPudding (1045640) | more than 2 years ago | (#38827345)

is clever, but I now would prefer a single broswer with tabbed pages.

Re:Card swiping (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38827869)

is clever, but I now would prefer a single broswer with tabbed pages.

Which exists in webOS as "Advanced Browser" in the app catalog. I've got it, but rarely use it over the stock browser. The only thing I like is that it is integrated with "SecureStore 2" which stores your site and login information in encrypted databases.

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