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Revolutionary Wants Technology To Transform Libya

samzenpus posted more than 2 years ago | from the we-can-build-it-better dept.

Government 117

pbahra writes in with the story of Khaled el Mufti, the network-security engineer who was in charge of providing telecommunications for the Libyan revolution. "It isn't often you get the chance to meet a real revolutionary. It is a term cheapened by misuse, but Khaled el Mufti is a revolutionary. It is no exaggeration to say that the role he played in the Libyan uprising last year was crucial; had he and his telecoms team failed, it isn't hard to think that Col. Muammar Gadhafi might still be in power. Today, Mr. Mufti is a telecoms adviser to the interim government and heads the e-Libya initiative, a bold plan to use the transformative powers of technology to modernize the Libyan state, overturning 40 years of corruption and misrule under Gadhafi. Mr. Mufti is an unlikely revolutionary, a softly spoken network-security engineer with a degree from Imperial College in London. Almost by chance he was in his native Libya when the revolution took place, working on a project with BT in the capital, Tripoli."

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117 comments

Quick (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38824355)

Let him help technology people find political office so their government doesn't become perverted by lawyers and a corrupt judicial system. Long live Libya!

Re:Quick cuz first post is all that matters evar! (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38824379)

Let him help technology people find political office so their government doesn't become perverted by lawyers and a corrupt judicial system. Long live Libya!

Libya would do well to make sure anybody medically considered morbidly obese should not be allowed to vote, breed, or drive. Don't be like America with a bunch of fucking disgusting lardass fatbodies who ALSO have entitlement complexes.

Re:Quick cuz first post is all that matters evar! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38824833)

Libya would do well to make sure anybody medically considered morbidly obese should not be allowed to vote, breed, or drive. Don't be like America with a bunch of fucking disgusting lardass fatbodies who ALSO have entitlement complexes.

Lybia !=Singapore

Re:Quick (1)

icebike (68054) | more than 2 years ago | (#38824505)

Let him help technology people find political office

Yes, techno nerds would make great leaders. *COUGH*. Clearly you have never dealt with any BOFH or PHBs in your life.

Re:Quick (0, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38824549)

I think BOFH and PHBs are sort of like McJob holders. They are service sector workers that lack formal education, so they are prone to emotional outbursts, due to ignorance and confusion. They are unlikely to move into anything else, except perhaps management.

Re:Quick (2)

viperidaenz (2515578) | more than 2 years ago | (#38824869)

It might surprise you to know this, but a Pointy Haired Boss is already in management.

Re:Quick (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38824961)

Sorry, this requires clarification:

I think BOFH and PHBs are sort of like McJob holders. They are service sector workers that lack formal education, so they are prone to emotional outbursts, due to ignorance and confusion. They are unlikely to move into anything else, except perhaps middle-management.

Re:Quick (2)

SuricouRaven (1897204) | more than 2 years ago | (#38826209)

The PHB is middle management by definition. The characteristic of the PHB is just that he leads a team but has no knowledge at all in the tasks for which his team are responsible - they enter the position via sideways transfer, and their training is limited to management concerns. The PHB is loathed for their inaccurate estimates of the difficulty of a task leading to unreasonable expectations and their disregard of technological concerns in decision-making. From the point of view of their unfortunate underlings, they appear to just be idiots. The original PHB character in Dilbert was the head of an engineering team but had no personal knowledge of or interest in engineering, and so could only provide his team with empty encouragement ("Work smarter, not harder!") and requests to do the impossible.

Re:Quick (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38824557)

A better leader than you could ever be, judging by your attitude.

Libya? Technology? (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38825997)

Let me put it bluntly ....

When Colonel Muammar Gadhafi took over the helm of Libya only 14% of the population could read and write.

When he was murdered by those bloody scumbags (with the help of the West) 94% of the Libyans can read and write.

If they won't even thank Gadhafi for helping them to attain literacy, you think technology can help this group of scumbags??

Re:Libya? Technology? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38826327)

I taught my kid how to read, so in your opinion that give me the right to kill him?

Re:Libya? Technology? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38826615)

I taught my kid how to read, so in your opinion that give me the right to kill him?

If you are in Libya and you and your son are of the Libyan scumbag specimen -- Your son might just rape and kill you in the future

Re:Quick (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38824691)

Technology is a tool, support to make something easier. It doesn't solve your problems for you.

That's why specialists rarely make it into leadership positions. They lose touch with reality. You know the saying, when you have a shiny new hammer, everything looks like a nail.

The first thing they need right now, is to print scads of leaflets about what democracy is, how different is from the previous regime and so on. And not just papers, but people to support those things with words. And they needed to do it just weeks after the end of the conflict.

Re:Quick (2, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38824895)

Better to use a hammer to put on a screw than to be clueless as to why the spoon doesn't work.

Thats not how it works (2)

arcite (661011) | more than 2 years ago | (#38826975)

Democracy is probably the last thing on people's mind. First they need electricity and water. Then they need food. Then they need shelter (actually this is a big one considering that thousands of building were almost completely destroyed in the war)....then the big one, they need JOBS. They need industry to get back on its feet, children to go back to school, hospitals to reopen, supermarkets to get restocked. Democracy? Elections? Who cares about that when you have roving bands of heavily armed militia trying to boss everyone around and having turf wars with the tribe next door? No, law and order first, then redevelopment, true democracy comes much later. It's a long process, decades in fact.

Re:Quick (2)

cribera (2560179) | more than 2 years ago | (#38825003)

Non technical leaders have had a lot of opportunies through history, and they rely on appealing to emotions in masses to screw the majority and get personal gains. So, why would it be bad that geeks and nerds get a real chance? Why are so many afraid of logic and reason being in power positons? Why would stancard politicians, lawyers and greedy businessmen be the only options to get the decision making power?

Re:Quick (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38825313)

So, why would it be bad that geeks and nerds get a real chance?

Because nerds are not good at manipulating people. The so-called leaders of the Western world don't decide anything important anyway, they're just the front for the corporations that finance them.
The way I see it, the best government in practice (i.e. stupid population) would be one officially ruled by a charismatic leader (preferentially changed every few years, as people will invariably get tired of them) but ruled in the shadows by a group with the interests of the people in mind. Finding a way to actually make this work is left as an exercise for the reader.

Why would stancard politicians, lawyers and greedy businessmen be the only options to get the decision making power?

Because the guy who's willing to do anything to get power is more likely to win.

Re:Quick (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38826515)

So we need a new illuminati composed of philosopher kings? To provide more democracy it would probably need to be statistically representative of all knowledge, from blue-collar to white-collar, so I think Joe the Plumber would be talking with William the academic.

Re:Quick (1, Insightful)

trikes57 (2442722) | more than 2 years ago | (#38825371)

So, why would it be bad that geeks and nerds get a real chance?

Why are so many afraid of logic and reason being in power positons?

You are talking about a Muslim majority culture in Libya.
Logic and reason mean nothing.

Re:Quick (2)

Fjandr (66656) | more than 2 years ago | (#38825741)

You are talking about people.
Logic and reason mean nothing.

Fixed that for you.

Re:Quick (1)

L1mewater (557442) | more than 2 years ago | (#38827261)

The current interim Prime Minister of Libya is a PhD in Electrical Engineering, and a former university professor.

Libya thanks to technology is now... (0)

icongorilla (2452494) | more than 2 years ago | (#38824365)

known as Dllya. Please relink your programs as approprate.

I just did it (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38824377)

I took Facebook down. Just for the LULZ.

Re:I just did it (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38824679)

You didn't keep it down long. LULZ!

Almost by chance (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38824415)

Yes.. in Libya for the revolution almost by chance. Just like some of those fine revolutionary leaders that also happened to be in Libya 'by chance' after the CIA set them up with plane tickets.

Re:Almost by chance (1)

Ethanol-fueled (1125189) | more than 2 years ago | (#38824449)

If you take good care of The Cartel, [wired.com] they take good care of you.

Re:Almost by chance (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38824667)

Because a Libyan ex-pat who was hired by an oil company would never end working in libya, really what are the odds

Re:Almost by chance (2)

Ethanol-fueled (1125189) | more than 2 years ago | (#38824709)

Because a Libyan ex-pat who was hired by an oil company

BT is not BP...though given the nature of the two industries, the intent was still most certainly contrived evil.

Right, "by chance" (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38824431)

yeah, right, a network security guy from UK just happened to be there, and just happened to take a crucial role "by chance". All the while (also by chance of course) the british boots were on the ground.

Re:Right, "by chance" (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38824721)

True. Capitalism at work. Nothing to see here, move along sheeple.

My prediction: (4, Insightful)

russotto (537200) | more than 2 years ago | (#38824447)

Dead within a year.

Re:My prediction: (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38825001)

Or unemployed within a year. Or in prison on corruption charges within a year. Techno! Techno!

Re:My prediction: (1)

subreality (157447) | more than 2 years ago | (#38825369)

The guy who wants him dead is dead himself and didn't have a lot of people who liked him enough to seek vengeance. I'd say odds are in el Mufti's favor.

Re:My prediction: (1)

shutdown -p now (807394) | more than 2 years ago | (#38825907)

There are plenty more people [reuters.com] in post-Gaddafi "liberated" Libya who would fancy this guy dead.

Re:My prediction: (1)

subreality (157447) | more than 2 years ago | (#38826135)

Well, that's true. I was just looking at it in regards to toppling the last guy, but his continuing work (like anyone's if they're trying to do anything big) will be dangerously controversial.

Re:My prediction: (1)

mjwalshe (1680392) | more than 2 years ago | (#38826855)

Unfortunately the Iranian revolution shows that the progressive elements get bulldozed into the ground by the reactionary religious side - I can see within a year some Mullah wrapping him self in the green flag and denouncing the internet as the great Satan and Khaled as a pawn of the SIS.

Revolutionary, 'a term cheapened by misuse' (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38824511)

indeed.

Libya had a communications satellite (3, Informative)

AHuxley (892839) | more than 2 years ago | (#38824521)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regional_African_Satellite_Communication_Organization [wikipedia.org]
http://articles.janes.com/articles/Janes-Space-Systems-and-Industry/Rascom-Libya.html [janes.com]
"'ground network includes gateway Earth stations and low cost," -
It made parts of Africa spend less on Intelsat and a lot less on big telco interconnection fees.
Now the West is back and wants their telco interconnection fees back... all of them.

Re:Libya had a communications satellite (1)

mjwalshe (1680392) | more than 2 years ago | (#38826875)

really I bet its local corrupt government officials want telco interconnection fees back - back in the day it was good way of ripping off your countries foreign currency - that's why telecoms minster was such a prized position in some third world countries

Interesting background on the coup (5, Interesting)

Burz (138833) | more than 2 years ago | (#38824577)

http://atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/MD14Ak02.html [atimes.com]

No wonder The Wall St. Journal is gushing.

Re:Interesting background on the coup (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38824863)

The use of * misrule * is particularly interesting. It shows that the corruption was not the problem, but rather that Gadhafi's policies were not "good government" as per the wsj. Go figure ...

Re:Interesting background on the coup (3, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38824939)

That's one hell of a conspiracy theory. Her main thesis is that Libya was attacked because it wouldn't play ball with the Bank for International Settlements? Well, if you look at the map there are only 4 Islamic countries which are part of the BIS http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bank_for_International_Settlements [wikipedia.org]

Could it just be that banking standards in the Islamic world differs highly from the rest of the world, and rather than there being an extra layer of conspiracy where Western countries are targeting non-BIS countries (of which there are yet many in USA's backyard of South America, and in France's backyard of Easter Europe), it's just that Libya happened to be a place where human rights violations were immediate (like Syria, Bahrain) and no major powers were backing it (unlike Syria, Bahrain).

There are two kids being abused, one lives near you, the other lives in a community where neighbors support the abuse. Where would intervention be the most effective?

Re:Interesting background on the coup (1)

Sir_Sri (199544) | more than 2 years ago | (#38824997)

And libya happens to be big enough and have enough regional divide that there was a clear 'this team that team' scenario, rather than, what is in Syria a more layered insurgency/battle for the streets thing.

Gaddhafis regime, like happens in pakistan and Iraq under Hussein, benefited one particular group. In pakistan elections change who's looting the public coffers this week, but the other places there's a very clear power grab. In Saudi and bahrain, and Syria it's very much an upper class vs lower classes situation, whereas in iraq and Libya it was a region vs region thing. We (in the west) naturally understand region vs region better, and are better able to inject our actions into it.

Libya is also on the doorstep of europe, and whatever you may think of Assad, Gaddhafi was crazier. If he wanted to go out in a blaze of glory (which, in the end, he didn't) he could have started shooting at a lot of things very much in other peoples interests. Syria... not so much, the east side of the med certainly would impact israel, but not so much Europe, and turkey and israel are big enough to deal with syria on their own if things go badly.

Re:Interesting background on the coup (1)

PopeRatzo (965947) | more than 2 years ago | (#38825049)

Her main thesis is that Libya was attacked because it wouldn't play ball with the Bank for International Settlements?

You think that's far-fetched? We've got bankers threatening to break up the European Union if certain countries dare suggest that maybe there are more important things to spend money on than those banks' profits. And the BIS is some of the same inbred cousins.

Personally, I'm surprised we didn't see a thermonuclear attack on Iceland.

Re:Interesting background on the coup (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38825197)

"We've got bankers threatening to break up the European Union if certain countries dare suggest that maybe there are more important things to spend money on than those banks' profits."

This is a staggering lie.

And I'd explain, but my experience as of the recent years is that Slashdot isn't a rational place any more.

God save the world from socialist crazies and their madness.

Re:Interesting background on the coup (1)

PopeRatzo (965947) | more than 2 years ago | (#38827339)

This is a staggering lie.

And I'd explain, but my experience as of the recent years is that Slashdot isn't a rational place any more.

God save the world from socialist crazies and their madness.

Governor Romney, please go ahead and "explain". I realize you feel that the rabble here at Slashdot is not "rational" enough to understand your explanation, but think of the good you'd be doing for the those few that would.

And the next time, don't click the "Post Anonymously" box when you're going to make an accusation you can't back up.

Now explain to us how the people who will benefit most from Europe's publicly-funded bailout of the banks is not the bankers. How the new "Austerity" is not doing more damage to those economies. Explain, if you will Governor Romney, how tough it is to be you.

Re:Interesting background on the coup (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38826159)

Personally, I'm surprised we didn't see a thermonuclear attack on Iceland.

There is an interview on youtube somewhere, from last year, with an Icelandic politician explaining that even though that country eschewed support from the IMF, so as to preserve their sovereignty, the IMF (or IMF sponsored entities) have been buying up distressed assets of social significance in the country (e.g., power companies) like crazy over the last couple of years. Sorry I can't remember the details any more clearly, but if you google for permutations of the above keywords you will find some interesting info out there.

The point being of course that even though they expressly refused to take bailouts, the bankers are laying claim to everything that's not nailed down anyway. (At least that's how I remember it, I may just be very susceptible to propaganda. [Honestly not sure if I'm being sarcastic or not.])

Re:Interesting background on the coup (1)

icebike (68054) | more than 2 years ago | (#38826573)

Yup ridiculously far fetched. Only an utter fool would believe you could sneak in, and convince people who can each get fifty thousand dollar interest free loans from a benevolent dictator to instead stand in the street day after day getting their head shot off by government snipers.

Re:Interesting background on the coup (1)

AHuxley (892839) | more than 2 years ago | (#38825183)

He had oil/gas exports, water projects (massive public projects), education, medical care, housing, cheap sat telco for Africa and was going to change African banking with gold.
He was very coup worthy just for any one of the above projects.

Re:Interesting background on the coup (1)

mjwalshe (1680392) | more than 2 years ago | (#38826887)

yes Gaddafi had pissed so many people off over the years - that even the usual suspect like China and Russia had given up on him.

Re:Interesting background on the coup (4, Insightful)

bill_mcgonigle (4333) | more than 2 years ago | (#38825333)

Skimmed the article - from what I've read elsewhere:

Gaddafi wanted to price oil in terms of gold and get all of Africa to do so as well. This threatened the petro dollar.

Libyans had a very high per-capita reserve of gold.

The same day as the US^H^H^H^H^H NATO started to attack, the 'rebels' set up a central bank and a national oil company.

The idea that the war was fought to protect rebels or civillians (see also: Syria, Bahrain) is sketchy. The idea that it was fought to protect the value of the US Dollar as the world reserve currency and maintain the primacy of central banks ... well, we wish that weren't true.

Re:Interesting background on the coup (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38826297)

Remember, the first Iraq war started after Saddam started to price oil in euro.

Re:Interesting background on the coup (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38826579)

You are using "^H" wrong. A character to the left is supposedly eaten for each ^H. The resulting string above would be: "The same day as t NATO started to attack, ..."

Re:Interesting background on the coup (3, Insightful)

Xest (935314) | more than 2 years ago | (#38826609)

"Libya - The US Currency Protection War"

An Epic story, brought to you from such esteemed authors as "The Jews did 9/11", "The Financial Crisis is the Banks Taking Over the World", and "UFOs took my mum"

It's stupid, I suppose these people think that Gaddaffi was in on it too and sent his forces to destory Benghazi provoking the initial French strikes to tip the scales in favour of military action too only to be backstabbed later on? Presumably after the initial strikes the reason Qatar, Britain, and France spent most money and took most risk over the conflict was because Cameron and Sarkozy were caught up in a love triangle with Obama and hoped to whisk him away to Canada where gay marriage is legal too?

A bank is a pretty important symbol of a functioning state, and a rebel cause like this needs an incredible amount of funding to stand up to the amount of reserves of gold and cash Gaddaffi had lying around to fund mercenairies and so forth.

As with all wars, those that helped the winning side will likely hope for some kind of repayment - favour for their companies when it comes to oil contracts and such, but to suggest this was some kind of planned US coup is fucking laughable. America was pretty reluctant over Libya and didn't even really want much to do with it, and after softening Gaddaffi's stationary implacements and facilities with initial cruise missile strikes, didn't in fact have much to do with it providing little more than intel from drones and satellites.

If there were any countries for whom this would be a conspiracy it would be Britain, France, or Qatar, as they were the primary instigators of it throughout, but then you'd have to find a reason other than the US dollar conspiracy theory.

It's also highly unlikely Russia and China wouldn't have an idea of what the Americans were upto, and they'd have outright vetoed the UN resolution knowing this is what it was about.

Really, it was what it was, some may disagree whether it was right and that's a fair point, some may point to greed when countries who supported the uprising get handed favourable contracts, but this wasn't some grand US conspiracy - as with most conspiracy theories, the theory only tentatively pieces together a handful of disparate points, whilst failing to string together a cohesive explanation for all the parts of the story that don't fit, no, they just get conveniently ignored by the nutjobs.

Re:Interesting background on the coup (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38827009)

Iran has lots of gold, and thanks to new sanctions, coupled with ZIRP & QE will have much more. India has agreed to purchase oil from Iran in gold.

Many of the Shanghai Coop Org (SCO) states have arranged to trade in their own currencies, effectively making a dollar exclusion zone. (Obama's focus on Pacific make more sense now) Notable participants are (former??) axis allies India and Japan.

And lets not forget the Dominique Strauss-Kahn saga. Via RT I read Gadaffy had let the cat out of the bag to the IMF about a Gold Dinar. DSK's response is unknown but I find the subsequent character-assassination with bogus sex crimes to be quite telling. Only other references to this are tinfoil hat sites. Would like MSM links if anyone has them.

I believe the US will repeat 'The Bay of Tonkin' with the USS Enterprise. Its 50 years old and due for (expensive) decommissioning in 2014. Sinking it in Hormuz and blaming Iran, the US, UK, France will defend the world economy (as oil will rocket).

These wars (Iraq, Lybia, Afganistan(oil transit), Kosovo (oil transit)) are not about taking control of the oil fields. The purpose is to maintain the supremacy of the dollar and its reserve status by pricing oil in USD. If you think about it only oil states can do this.

Venezuela repatriated its gold, & has oil. Its next after Iran.

Re:Interesting background on the coup (1)

Xest (935314) | more than 2 years ago | (#38827255)

"And lets not forget the Dominique Strauss-Kahn saga."

Perhaps he's actually a Chinese man with lots of plastic surgery, and has the go code for the space based China world-mind control device? Obviously because of this the NSA needed to set him up as a rapist.

They had to take out Gaddaffi because he was threatening the strategic oil transport route of Kosovo, which is a nation so large no one could ever pass round it.

I agree, Afghanistan as an oil transit route was important, because they had to stop Iran pumping oil to Uzbekistan, as it meant the Uzbeks were able to use modern machinery to start harvesting their cotton, creating a real challenged to America's cotton industry.

I think you're wrong about Venezuela though, I think the next target after Iran is Canada, I hear those bastards are considering upping the price of bacon, and well, they have a fair bit of oil, and decent amounts of gold reserves so that makes them an obvious target.

Lebanon is just lucky the US hasn't realised that it's got a decent amount of oil, some of the largest gold reserves in the world, and too an islamist insurgency loyal to Iran and Syria that has just about taken control of the country. I mean, it's obvious that America has avoided going after Lebanon recently as part of this grand plan because they simply forgot about them. It couldn't possibly be because there is no grand conspiracy or anything like that.

Re:Interesting background on the coup (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38827901)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nabucco_pipeline
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trans-Afghanistan_Pipeline

Re:Interesting background on the coup (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38828611)

If you think the Libyan war could have gone ahead without the blessing of the State Department, then fine, but I think you're fooling yourself.

Fair enough, tying it to oil money is probably a bit fanciful, just as it was for Iraq and Afghanistan. But American hands are behind this. It was American newspapers and TV stations that picked up the rebel cause, after American bloggers and tweeters got hold of it. America was the first port of call for the rebels. "Why isn't America helping us?" they asked. America played its part, and there would have been no British or French support without a quiet "ok" from State.

That's just how it is. Obama may be the big disappointer, but when it comes to liberal intervention, i.e. world policing, he's sticking very nicely to the record of his predecessors. Bosnia, Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, and so it goes on. America, fuck yeah. Coming again, to save the mother fucking day, yeah.

A good question is why people support some of these wars and not others. Overt American support seems to be a problem - if the President is personally ordering an attack, then it's fascism, but if the President is quietly advising somebody else to attack, then it's democracy. I suppose in the final analysis George W. Bush's error was to be too obvious about what he wanted to do.

How about this for a conspiracy (1)

arcite (661011) | more than 2 years ago | (#38827079)

Gaddafi was a BAD guy, he funded insurgencies and terrorist groups around the world for forty years. He kept his population in poverty, neglected infustructure, and enriched his own family. He also tortured and murdered thousands of his own people with foreign mercenaries. The opportunity came for the west to end his reign of terror and they took it. There is no need for conspiracies.

Re:How about this for a conspiracy (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38827101)

Yeah, because the US, UK, France are just nice charitable guys. Whats one more theater of operations when your economies are fucked and everyone is ditching the dollar?

Once we get through to one evil dictator it will have been worth it (wipes tear from eye)

Yes, transformer it... (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38824579)

Into the Nightmarish Technology Cult of the Empire of the SANDS!

Bow before them or die!

Going to hell for this comment, but... (1)

girlintraining (1395911) | more than 2 years ago | (#38824651)

When I read the headline the first thing I thought was,

Autobots, move out!

Copyright Term (0, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38824659)

According to Wikipedia, the copyright term in Libya [wikipedia.org] is "Life + 25 years with 50-year minimum (as of 1968; may have changed since)". That's 25 years less than in Canada and New Zealand, 45 years less than in the European Union and Australia, and who knows how much less than the US.

He should be able to do work with that and create something beautiful for the world... even better if he can get the term of protection down to 20 years flat. Oh... such a nice dream. The reality will of course be that those who control the US Government have their puppets on the case already.

wall street (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38824769)

If only some one would have helped those wall street kids then they may have gotten rid of the blood thirsty warlord obama.

How it will be: (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38824839)

I see it coming: technology under the Sharia.

This depresses me (5, Insightful)

sideslash (1865434) | more than 2 years ago | (#38824843)

Not saying there isn't great potential for good there, but I don't expect to see it. Unfortunately, the Islamists in Libya and Egypt would like nothing better than to use technology the same way Iran does -- to stifle any dissent from the political/religious straightjacket that is Islamic fundamentalism. I hope for the best, but don't like some aspects of the political momentum I see in the "Arab spring". It seems like they are dumping corrupt secular dictators, just to prop up theoretically less corrupt, but still abjectly fascist slave masters wielding Sharia law.

Re:This depresses me (5, Interesting)

Mashiki (184564) | more than 2 years ago | (#38824955)

Oh come on. The media elitists keep telling us that this arab spring is nothing but good stuff, and there's rainbows, and cookies, and everyone is going to hold hands. That's why in egypt they just elected a group of people which will be happily throwing the countries legal system back to the 13th-14th century, and quickly shoving women back to chattel status.

Oh...and the same thing is going on in libya. Sadly the people that believed this revolution stuff would be positive were so naive that it made me wonder if they'd ever left their home countries and wondered the world in the slightest.

Re:This depresses me (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38825769)

Oh come on. The media elitists keep telling us that this arab spring is nothing but good stuff, and there's rainbows, and cookies, and everyone is going to hold hands. That's why in egypt they just elected a group of people which will be happily throwing the countries legal system back to the 13th-14th century, and quickly shoving women back to chattel status.

Oh...and the same thing is going on in libya. Sadly the people that believed this revolution stuff would be positive were so naive that it made me wonder if they'd ever left their home countries and wondered the world in the slightest.

If thats what the egyptians want, then thats their right. You or I don't have to like it, but it sure as hell aint any ones business but the egyptians. fought hard for their democracy, and its up to them to decide what to do with it, not some slavering angry westerners who want to turn the middle east into some sort of bizzaro reflection of washington, london or paris.

Re:This depresses me (5, Informative)

shutdown -p now (807394) | more than 2 years ago | (#38825917)

If thats what the egyptians want, then thats their right. You or I don't have to like it, but it sure as hell aint any ones business but the egyptians.

Keep in mind that Sharia equals death penalty for homosexuals, for example. Statistically, about 10% of Egyptians are homosexual. Do you think they want it? Or do you think that, if the majority wants to oppress some of the minorities - maybe even massacre them - they're free to do so so long as they held a vote first?

Re:This depresses me (2, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38826419)

Actually, based on what I know of history, I bet a lot of these homosexuals want Sharia law even if it means death for them. They probably think that despite Sharia law, they'll never get caught or they think the risk is worth the "good" stuff Sharia law brings. I'm willing to bet at least half of Egypt's homosexual are just as extremist as the straight extremists and would have no problem stoning a cheating woman or beheading a girl who had premarital sex.

And to be clear, I'm not saying the fact that they are homosexual makes them extremist or supportive of Sharia law - I would also say that a lot of cheating women would support Sharia law because they don't like gays... That's the way people are - they'll support something that harms those they do not like, even if what they support could hurt them too; they'll just assume they won't get caught but everyone else will.

A recent example of this is World War II. A lot of Tziganes (gypsies) were happy to see the Jews go and a lot of Jews were happy to see the Tziganes go. They just all thought they'd escape the Nazis while everyone else wouldn't. A lot of Germans were happy about the war on everyone else and the death it brought to their enemies, even though they were fighting and risking their lives too. When France was occupied, some French people were glad to report their neighbors for stuff the Germans/Vichy government deemed illegal. Some did it in support of Germany, some did it to get revenge on their neighbors... Those who reported their neighbors could have been reported themselves too, but they thought they'd get away with it while their neighbors whom they disliked would be the only ones to get caught.

Out of those 10% of homosexuals, maybe 5% are really opposed to Sharia law. And about half of cheating women or unmarried women who lost their virginity would support Sharia law too. It's not fair to those who don't support Sharia law, but the reality is a lot darker than you think.

Re:This depresses me (-1, Troll)

Alex Belits (437) | more than 2 years ago | (#38826607)

Congratulations, you are an idiot.

Re:This depresses me (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38826531)

So what you are saying is that there is a good side to everything.

Re:This depresses me (1)

Inda (580031) | more than 2 years ago | (#38827505)

That's twice in a week I've seen that 10% figure on Slashdot.

It's wrong. Proved wrong. Many times proved wrong.

Try 1%, statistically.

Re:This depresses me (1)

Mashiki (184564) | more than 2 years ago | (#38828395)

Actually it's probably higher. Homosexually is rife in arab culture, they simply don't call it that. I'd guess around 40%.

Re:This depresses me (1)

HeckRuler (1369601) | more than 2 years ago | (#38828953)

ah yes, I knew there was a reason you have a little red dot by your name.

Re:This depresses me (3, Interesting)

sourcerror (1718066) | more than 2 years ago | (#38826835)

If you refer to the Muslim Brotherhood, then you must be really misguided. It's like saying that a Christian-Democrat partys wants reintitute inquisition.

Re:This depresses me (1)

Mashiki (184564) | more than 2 years ago | (#38828423)

You have read the muslim brotherhoods statements of declaration right? You know the parts where they believe that there should be no peace with israel, there should be no peace with jews, that women have a specific role and should be relegated to the home. That sharia should be the highest law of the land, so on and so forth.

It's all right there, in front of you. On their own website.

Re:This depresses me (3, Informative)

artor3 (1344997) | more than 2 years ago | (#38825011)

It seems like they are dumping corrupt secular dictators, just to prop up theoretically less corrupt, but still abjectly fascist slave masters wielding Sharia law.

I don't see that at all. The Muslim Brotherhood won in the election in Egypt, not to Salafis. They had an election, and they elected one of the moderate parties, by their standards. Maybe you were hoping for them to elect the liberal party, but there's a difference between "not the party I would have voted for" and "abjectly fascist slave masters".

If anyone expects Egypt to be a utopian bastion of democracy within a few years, they're fooling themselves. It never works like that. But they're taking steps in the right direction, and they fought like hell for the right to take those steps. Don't run them down for that.

Re:This depresses me (1)

Mashiki (184564) | more than 2 years ago | (#38825047)

If you think the muslim brotherhood is moderate, you're fooling yourself. These are the same guys who hold the same beliefs as 50 years ago when they wanted to slap tents on women, and make them into second class citizens. They didn't change, they were banned. They held on to their ideals, and simply spread them among the populace.

Re:This depresses me (3, Insightful)

artor3 (1344997) | more than 2 years ago | (#38825159)

By the standards of the country, the Muslim Brotherhood is moderate, and perhaps more importantly, they were elected. It's better to have an elected government than a dictator, even if that elected government does some bad stuff.

Let's not forget that America passed plenty of terrible laws when it was younger. Still does, in fact, though not to the same extent. The Sedition Act made it illegal to say anything bad about the government. Black people were deemed 3/5ths of a person. No, that doesn't mean they got three fifths of a vote. It means their owners did. They banned sodomy and alcohol. Non-protestants weren't allowed to hold office in many places.

It takes a long time for democratic countries to level out and start running themselves well. But it beats the hell out of being completely at the mercy of a dictator.

Re:This depresses me (1)

Mashiki (184564) | more than 2 years ago | (#38825291)

And we remember what happens when you elect dictatorships and fascism don't we? Especially with groups that already espouse the destruction of another people and religion. I can count on one hand the number of benevolent dictatorships that we've seen in the last 300 years.

Sure, and those laws were over-turned, in time, and inplace. Let's not forget either that in all of those cases there were still fundamental freedoms that allowed them all to be tested against a foundational principal. In egypts case, much like malaysias for example, the highest law of the land being pushed is islamic, or 7th century sharia. Those were the highest laws of the land are religious.

It may have taken awhile for democratic countries to start running themselves well. But electing a group of people who's belief that walking backwards into the past, is a step forward is silly. Especially when the dictatorship, may have been oppressive, but allowed more freedom then what is coming down the pipe.

Re:This depresses me (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38825367)

They didn't elect dictatorship and fascism. They elected a backward fundamentalist religious government. There is a difference, even if neither is very good.

Re:This depresses me (2)

Mashiki (184564) | more than 2 years ago | (#38825417)

They didn't elect dictatorship and fascism. They elected a backward fundamentalist religious government. There is a difference, even if neither is very good.

The difference between fascism and a fundamentalist religious government, is one uses religion as a pretext. The other uses the word of man. In both cases, they're the same thing, it's simply interpretation that defines how screwed up it will become.

Re:This depresses me (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38825919)

No, it doesn't. These words *mean* things. Fascist doesn't mean "bad", and fundamentalist doesn't mean single party.

Re:This depresses me (1)

Mashiki (184564) | more than 2 years ago | (#38828361)

No, it doesn't. These words *mean* things. Fascist doesn't mean "bad", and fundamentalist doesn't mean single party.

Really? Can you tell me of a a good religious theocracy that's been a benevolent dictatorship outside of the supposition believed to be true based on historical texts? Can you name a fascist government that hasn't murdered it's own people, simply to murder it's own people to keep them in line?

Words are also actions, actions are also ideas and ideals. Those are put into practice, and when put into practice without the temperament, horrific things are done. Our modern history in the last 600 years are a testament to these things. And in some cases, those things have been far worse by some groups then others. Don't be ignorant and try to play the fool by saying they're "just things."

Re:This depresses me (1)

artor3 (1344997) | more than 2 years ago | (#38825513)

When did the newly elected Egyptian government espouse the destruction of another people? I suspect you're conflating them with the Iranian government or the like. That's unfair.

You are arguing that the Egyptians should have just been content to be ruled by a dictator, rather than try to rule themselves, because you've convinced yourself that they'll fuck it up. That's a very White Man's Burden sort of attitude.

Re:This depresses me (1)

shutdown -p now (807394) | more than 2 years ago | (#38825937)

Thing is, U.S. Constitution was very progressive for its age; the country just had to "grow up" to fully fit into it and learn to equally apply and exercise all the freedoms. It didn't have any silly things like saying that it's a "Christian country" or that "Bible is the supreme law of the land all laws and constitutional provisions contradicting it have no legal force", nor adding clauses that prohibit amending the constitution later with respect to those articles. But doing the same with Islam is Sharia is many of those newly created "Islamic republics" write into their own respective constitutions. I don't see how a working democracy can seamlessly evolve when the founding document explicitly prohibits certain laws outright, and also prohibits amending itself to remove such a prohibition.

Re:This depresses me (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38826125)

If you think the Muslim Brotherhood is homogeneous, you're fooling yourself. Calling the Muslim Brotherhood "the same guys who hold the same beliefs as 50 years ago when they wanted to slap tents on women" because a faction of the movement is violent and fundamentalist is like calling the Tea Party "the same guys who assassinated Kennedy and Lincoln" because some psychos with guns who call themselves tea partiers make death threats and in one case tried to follow through.

Neither is a fair representation of the movement, and there are a lot of reasonable and peaceful people who want to work within a western democratic system to affect change per their vision of a better USA/Egypt.

Re:This depresses me (1)

sideslash (1865434) | more than 2 years ago | (#38828879)

Taking steps toward Sharia law is not taking steps in the right direction. It's just not.

System design for a classic problem (1)

beachdog (690633) | more than 2 years ago | (#38825271)

It is not the technology, rather it is the opportunity to practice the art of systems design.

Design what?

Designing a whole government is an impossibly huge job. Divide the problem into parts and solve the parts. One big part to fix: How about resolve one key problem that plagues governments worldwide... how to vote the incumbent out of office before the incumbent takes control of the voting system.

Why not use cell phone and Internet technology, together with some statistical sampling to overcome the physical problems of holding elections in Libya? The problem is to be able to vote a leader out of office before that leader seizes control of the election process.

Re:System design for a classic problem (1)

drkstr1 (2072368) | more than 2 years ago | (#38825463)

Ha! I think I just drooled a bit.

I'm a programmer by profession, but only because I couldn't manage to wrangle myself up a job as a systems designer without any "education" or previous experience. :)

What a fantastically fun problem that would be to solve!

Re:System design for a classic problem (1)

DamnStupidElf (649844) | more than 2 years ago | (#38825749)

Randomly elected representative government (uniformly selected from the entire eligible population by widely approved statistical sampling methods), switched out every 4 years, with as many representatives selected as necessary to have confidence at the 97th percentile that their beliefs represent the beliefs of the country as a whole. Make constitutional referendums last >4 years preventing any one elected government from making arbitrary changes.

The technology they're talking about is an AK-47 (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38825575)

And the technology is already proven itself ... several times over.

Allahu ackbar! (4, Funny)

hessian (467078) | more than 2 years ago | (#38825577)

USA: starry-eyed techs go into IT in order to make our lives better through technology, end up having to update thoughtless websites, and hate it.

Middle East: starry-eyed techs go into IT with hopes of bringing democracy to their countries, end up working for Islamic Brotherhood and designing suicide vests, and hate it.

See, we're all the same after all....

You don't need a gun to be a hero (2)

msobkow (48369) | more than 2 years ago | (#38826065)

My hats off to the Libyan IT team that kept the communications going.

EU still owes them some billions of euros (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38826113)

EU still owes them some billions of euros. Where are they?

modernize == surveille (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38826813)

Look I like tech. I like telco tech too. But at the end of the day - if this artefact has reached our newsliness it's because the modern tech that will be introduced will be of the popular kind, not the anominizing kind. Each to their own.

If a village in the (recent) news has fallen to pro - gadafi ppl, then they'll want to be kept an eye on - especially in this transformative period. (because presumarbly gadafi was not the ideal candidate to lead that country)

Maybe in all the modelling that has been done in the last 50 years this crazy capitalism idea works!! Maybe country-by-country.... but as super powers go, maybe it's not going to work if "races/countries/etc" get p'd off by not being #1. Just one-way-to-look-at-it.

Chile and cybernetics (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38826853)

No cause for optimism here, based on precedent:

"In 1970, Stafford Beer was approached by Salvador Allende's elected socialist government of Chile to develop a national real-time computerised system Cybersyn to run the entire Chilean economy. This project was never completed. When Allende was removed from power by General Augusto Pinochet's 1973 coup, the Cybersyn project was abandoned."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stafford_Beer

Solar (1)

AmiMoJo (196126) | more than 2 years ago | (#38827327)

Telecoms won't be the big money maker for Libya, solar thermal will. The EU wants to build some massive plants over there, and Libya will be happy to work with us because they know that oil is running out and going out of fashion.

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