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OzLog: Unlimited Private Data Retention For Australia?

samzenpus posted more than 2 years ago | from the keeping-a-list dept.

Australia 54

AHuxley writes "Australia would like to follow the EU down the 'European Directive on Data Retention' path. Law enforcement agencies may have the option to request a log of all a users of interest telco usage without any review or time limits. From the article: 'The proposal — known popularly as ‘OzLog’ — first came to light in June 2010, when AGD confirmed it had been examining the European Directive on Data Retention (PDF) to consider whether it would be beneficial for Australia to adopt a similar regime. The directive requires telcos to record data such as the source, destination and timing of all emails and telephone calls – even including internet telephony.'"

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54 comments

IF it can be done it will be done (2)

Crashmarik (635988) | more than 2 years ago | (#38826311)

And very often if there is even a small advantage to doing so. The plus side of having a national policy and laws is you can have some sort of a framework governing the use of the retained data. The downside is that most of these laws just encourage big brotherish behavior

Re:IF it can be done it will be done (4, Insightful)

Psychotria (953670) | more than 2 years ago | (#38826393)

Why on Earth should my telephone calls (source and destination) be logged and retained indefinitely? A "framework governing the user of the data"? Are you crazy? Any national framework governing the use of the data is next to useless. Once the data are there (recorded) no "framework" will guarantee how the data are used in the future. If I want to telephone my mother there is NO REASON AT ALL to log this. Indeed, if I want to telephone my drug dealer (I actually don't use drugs, but it's an example), there is NO REASON AT ALL to log that either. There is no "positive" (as your comment suggests) to this stupid proposal.

Re:IF it can be done it will be done (3, Insightful)

hedwards (940851) | more than 2 years ago | (#38826459)

The solution is to "accidentally" dial the wrong number several times for every one time you dial the correct one. Eventually there will be enough complaints about the system and the data itself will be such complete worthless junk that they'll have to do something about it.

And by something I mean probably ban people from dialing the wrong number.

Re:IF it can be done it will be done (3, Interesting)

rtb61 (674572) | more than 2 years ago | (#38826679)

These people have no idea at all. I have younger relatives who don't have an email address at all, preferring to do everything via social networks. Then there is of course Gmail, Hotmail, Yahoo et al.

Then there are tools like this Track Me Not http://cs.nyu.edu/trackmenot/ [nyu.edu] . Tools like this will extend to every communications medium to flood records with junk connections, basically multiply by a factor of thousands the information to be stored.

Computers are great at filtering and correlating data, they are even better at creating junk data making any filtering and correlation impossible, GIGO.

Re:Junk Data (2)

TaoPhoenix (980487) | more than 2 years ago | (#38826791)

Sorry, I don't agree.

Precisely because computers are so good at data, a smart operator can bust the junk pattern and then filter it all out. The basic idea is that I-BigBro don't care about the sum total of your calls, I care about whether particular hotspots get hit at all. Put simply as an example, you can have 88,000 pages of data but the filter in Excel will sort it all up and a "known terrorist phone number" is there.

Re:Junk Data (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38827645)

Most of the time they are using network analysis. They want to know the numbers/webpages/profiles you connected to, and correlate them with the data of the people on your social network. This allows them to know if you're a civil rights terrorist and plant drugs in your house during a raid.

Re:Junk Data (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38829071)

You're not thinking backwards enough. The way to poison that kind of surveillance is to have your dial-a-random-number engine dial terrorists when you in fact have nothing to do with them.

Re:Junk Data (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38829879)

Good luck getting people to use your 'dial every number on the terror-watch list' program to cover up their call to the guy the buy some blow from every now and then.

Wouldn't using a tool like TrackMeNot (1)

Presto Vivace (882157) | more than 2 years ago | (#38827305)

just draw the attention of the authorities and other parties?

Re:IF it can be done it will be done (1)

thereitis (2355426) | more than 2 years ago | (#38827567)

Easy enough to filter for calls > than 15 seconds or sort by most-connected numbers, unless you call the same wrong numbers regularly.

Are you that delusional (2, Interesting)

SmallFurryCreature (593017) | more than 2 years ago | (#38827295)

You do NOT have a right to commit a crime and calling your drug dealer is NOT something that society wants you to get away with.

If society wanted people to be able to commit crimes, it wouldn't have created the police and spend billions on funding for it. It would simply have kept anarchy. The police instead have been given powers to track criminals down and this has always meant powers to track people and communication. Why should your phone logs NOT be available after a court order has been issued for them?

That is the problem with this entire debade, you got complete and utter nutters who somehow thinkt that the general public is on the side of criminals in their cat and mouse game with the police and is rooting for criminals to get away with crimes.

Allt he provisions of "innocent until proven guilty" and provisions against illegal searches are there to protect the innocent, NOT the guilty. Saying you don't want the police to be able to find out about your crimes might work on some of the /. populace who have lost all touch with reality but it just hampers people who really care about privacy of INNOCENT people.

I think that reasonable people who agree that crime should be punished but that we don't want to create an uncontrollable police state, that we should focus on creating proper procedures with check and balances for dealing with our changing society. Log internet data the same as call data already is but make it that the police must get a warrant for a limitted time that will become a matter of public record after a set time so we know who was investigated and why so we can see if it was for legit or illegitimate purposes.

But just a blanket pardon for all criminal behavior, that will never fly and any party that is associated with such claims will loose in an election because once again, no matter what some here might claim, the average citizen does NOT think it right for you to call your drug dealer.

And if you want to live in a society with no rules, Somalia is that away. Have fun, nobody here will miss you.

Re:Are you that delusional (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38827627)

In case you missed it. Everybody is guilty of something.

The general public IS on the side of criminals because invariabliy they are criminals.

Re:Are you that delusional (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38827737)

You can have an Orwellian police state or Somalia, those are your choices. Do what we say or the drug dealing kiddie fiddler abortion loving transexual girl scout terrorists win.

Re:Are you that delusional (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38828195)

I never have been able to figure out how others rationalize using violence to punish someone for doing something they "don't like," regardless of whether they are actually hurting anyone else. If I have a marijuana, heroin, methamphetamine, PCP, or any other kind of drug habit, that is MY business until I start harming others. If you do not agree with this, I sincerely hope you never get any kind of real power.

Re:Are you that delusional (1)

ibutsu (2528336) | more than 2 years ago | (#38829591)

I never realized that *calling* a drug dealer was crime. Now I could understand it a bit more if the call was to purchase illegal drugs from him, but it is not possible to know that until the call is in progress at best.

Re:Are you that delusional (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38829697)

Calling your drug dealer isn't illegal. Perhaps you are scheduling a tennis match with them.

Re:Are you that delusional (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38860325)

The tyrant government always provides ample opportunity for the populace to become petty criminals, but get away with it. Then when someone must be punished for something, "which it is not legal to punish them for", another reason can be discovered.

Re:IF it can be done it will be done (2)

vencs (1937504) | more than 2 years ago | (#38826639)

Assange read this in the cables much earlier and went for relocation.

Money (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38827243)

The bottom line with government is ALWAYS money. These endless, consistent expansions of government are justified with anything but profit, but behind the curtains, the goal is EXACTLY profit.

Government is a business -- only the money they spend isn't theirs, and they take their revenue by force. But at the top of the pyramid, it doesn't matter where the money goes or whether you "succeed" or "fail" in your "initiative". What matters is that the money passes through your hands, giving you a chance to exploit that cash flow for personal gain.

In the business of government, ALWAYS follow the money.

want a drink? here's a firehose (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38826323)

It will take next to no time for users to set up a plethora of bogus email accounts that automatically creates data. A DoS would ensue. The target data would be buried.

Re:want a drink? here's a firehose (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38826337)

Sorry, I didnt sign that last comment of mine.

- Shawn Halayka

Tits up (2, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38826325)

Given that it's Australia, the data will be in an incompatible format, the people acessing it won't know what any of it means and the system that is supposedly gathering the data will be just making the shit up.

If you really want to know what we are up to just buy it from china.

Re:Tits up (2)

Psychotria (953670) | more than 2 years ago | (#38826423)

Given that it's Australia, the data will be in an incompatible format, the people acessing it won't know what any of it means and the system that is supposedly gathering the data will be just making the shit up.

If you really want to know what we are up to just buy it from china.

Yes, because Australia is a backwater nation that encodes all data in incompatible and undocumented formats of our own design. *rolls eyes*

Re:Tits up (2, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38826539)

This does raise an important question: do eyes in Australia roll in the opposite direction from ours in the U.S.?

Re:Tits up (4, Funny)

rohan972 (880586) | more than 2 years ago | (#38826603)

This does raise an important question: do eyes in Australia roll in the opposite direction from ours in the U.S.?

No, downhill, just like anywhere else.

You can run your own tests, the victims won't be able to identify you.

Re:Tits up (2)

Fluffeh (1273756) | more than 2 years ago | (#38826677)

Yes, because Australia is a backwater nation that encodes all data in incompatible and undocumented formats of our own design.

Actually, if you have ever tried to do anything in Australia regarding a log of phone calls or the like, it would seem that we do INDEED use incompatible and undocumented formats of our own design. This comes from many hours spent the phone with Telstra, Optus and worst of all Vodafone.

Oh, and by the way, I work for an Australian employer of over 200,000 employees. The data formats and accuracy that we have is utterly appalling. Even we can't read much of our data to any useful degree or match it with anything that makes it useful. I wouldn't expect much more of our phone companies.

Re:Tits up (1)

Dexter Herbivore (1322345) | more than 2 years ago | (#38827843)

Having worked as a DBA in the mining industry in Australia, I can safely say that it's not just telcos that use multiple proprietary data formats and have very little regard for accuracy. The company I worked for took over a number of smaller organisations and the datasets we got from them were worse than useless.

Like in Europe, except... (5, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38826345)

That in Europe data retention is only for a finite amount of time, and can only be used to investigate major crimes, e.g., murder and terrorism (the real kind, not the US kind). Recent rulings by European courts confirm this (no IP addresses should be given to investigate copyright infringement).

Re:Like in Europe, except... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38826733)

Well, guess what the "only for solving and preventing major crimes" data was used for in Germany, at least until the Bundesverfassungsgericht (supreme court in Germany) found that the law was unconstitutional and sacked it, retroactively and requiring all data captured under that law to be deleted. The data retention law is the same big brotherish bullshit in Europe as it is or will be elsewhere. Don't believe the appeasement attempts. Data retention will be used against YOU.

Re:Like in Europe, except... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38826741)

The whole law was actually something drafted via the EU by the UK because it didn't pass in the UK when it was only a UK-law. Using Brussels to do their dirty work.

Re:Like in Europe, except... (1)

rioki (1328185) | more than 2 years ago | (#38826789)

I think there is no big difference if they wiretap my line or get the data from the last 3 months. The important part is that the appropriate legal framework exists to retrieve the data. And as GP said, this is only possible in criminal law, not civil law and at least in Europe copyright infringement is still civil law...

Re:Like in Europe, except... (1)

trevmar (188523) | more than 2 years ago | (#38826867)

No, Kim DotCom is accused of criminal conduct in order to get around laws like this. Don't rely on civil law to protect you from big brother.
 

Re:Like in Europe, Schitzophrenia (1)

StillNeedMoreCoffee (123989) | more than 2 years ago | (#38830849)

With Europe's increadible laws protecting personal privacy of data, this seems to go in exactly the other direction. It's like there is us and them and we are the government and we know whats best, on one side and the other, no one should have your data, you should be protected (but not from us). These are hard philosophies to resolve together consistantly.

Crypto (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38826445)

They can kiss my encrypted arse!

Re:Crypto (0)

Theophany (2519296) | more than 2 years ago | (#38826667)

Six proxies aren't enough!

Kangaroo terrorism (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38826457)

You really need to defend against those kangaroos...especially the ones that use email.

This will allow easy access to private information (1)

digitaldude99 (1861666) | more than 2 years ago | (#38826483)

This puts a lot of private information in the hands of telephone companies and internet providers. I doubt their security is going to be very good. Anyone with any private information that could be of use to anyone else had better be encrypting it. This would bu businesses guarding their companies trade secrets, people in the public eye who could be implicated in scandals, or any political group with enemies. In the UK they recently had a scandal where the papers were tapping in to phones to get stories. Imagine what a government or maybe just a senior person in the intelligence agency could do with this information. They can often have their own agenda these people which isnt always in the public interest.

So hang on ... (1)

giorgist (1208992) | more than 2 years ago | (#38826529)

If I use Gmail, can my isp trace to whom I send emails ?

These guys are creating a network with waited relationships between us all.

If he is classified with a threat lever of 0.9 and my link to him is valued as 0.7 which is figured out by the frequency and timing of the emails and my relationships to other members he is related to that means I am a threat level of 0.63.

Bogus email accounts simply end up with very small threat levels although a bogus email account would carry some weight on account of the fact that you created it for a particular purpose.

If google can complete the search box in real time as we type, I am sure a tiny budget is required to calculate all out weightings.

Re:So hang on ... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38826709)

Thay cant trace it, unless they can intercept encrypted traffic, which woudl be illegal in most of reasonable countries, without serious reasons to that. They can only see second side traffic, providing u send someone email of your own ISP customer base. But than... There is also PGP....

Fortunately for them, my life is compressible (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38826583)

Well, if they are going to do it, they might as well do it well. Fortunately for them, my life is highly compressible:

1. Get up
2. Look back at life
3. Cry
4. Masturbate
5. Sleep
6. Repeat above steps as necessary

This way, they only have to log the relatively few outliers and # of times per day to get an accurate picture of my life. I'm saving the government massive amounts of money in storage costs!

Helpful measures (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38826585)

You've got to understand that these little measures are helpful for the police. It would also make sense to consider allowing torture during police interrogations and training kids in summer camps to spy on their parents.

Not enough ! (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38826627)

Why just destinations and times, record the phone calls, emails, file, everything. Not doing so helps the TERRORISTS*, not doing so means you are a TERRORIST*.

(* substitute with CHILD MOLESTER, PIRATE or JAYWALKER at your convenance)

EU Data Retention Directive (4, Informative)

silanea (1241518) | more than 2 years ago | (#38826633)

Oh, you mean the very same EU Data Retention Directive that has been condemned by the EU's own data protection authority [dw-world.de] , slammed by legal experts [ejlt.org] and is currently under evaluation [europa.eu] within the European Commission and which, after being found in violation of the European Convention on Human Rights in Romania and staggeringly overpowered in Germany [eff.org] , will probably be either restricted so severely it will not matter much anymore or, if enough political pressure can be built in time, completely taken back.

Yeah, looks like a winner to me to introduce into your country now.

Re:EU Data Retention Directive (0)

cpu6502 (1960974) | more than 2 years ago | (#38827239)

It is a winner if your goal is to fight a war on terror (U.S.). You appear to view spying as some kind of negative? The American government thinks Australia adopting Data retention is a wonderful policy.

BTW the EU is rapidly passing the ACTA. Apparently they don't care aboot privacy either.

Re:EU Data Retention Directive (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38827553)

And in the UK today:
Leveson Inquiry hears data laws 'breached every day'
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-16738523

Re:EU Data Retention Directive (1)

silanea (1241518) | more than 2 years ago | (#38837507)

By the way, the German Max Planck Institute has found in a study [heise.de] (sorry, German only) that data retention does not help with fighting any serious crime - terrorism, homicide, armed robbery or, remarkably, child pornography. It would only be of (limited) use for "petty" crimes of online fraud and for civil cases, mostly in the field of copyright infringement. Not that that was not clear from the start, but it sure is nice to see it spelled out in very clear language by a highly regarded internationally recognised scientific institution.

An attack on our freedoms (2)

Cherubim1 (2501030) | more than 2 years ago | (#38826675)

These surveillance and data retention laws are a violation of civil liberties and freedoms. There is no need for government to capture and retain all voice and most data traffice of common users. It's obscene and could only be justified if the person/persons being monitored have committed or are engaged in serious criminal activites. These laws treat everyone like a criminal or terrorist. Sheer insanity. Where will it end ?

Re:An attack on our freedoms (2)

vikingpower (768921) | more than 2 years ago | (#38826697)

I am v e r y concerned about this, too. We seem to assist at the emergence of a new sort of state: the control state. A democratic-looking, "soft" police state. Your use of the word "obscene" is justified. It will either end in sheer apathy, or in uprising / revolution, these also of a new kind. "Principiis obsta !" / "Resist the beginnings !"

Only hurt those at the bottom rung... (3, Interesting)

fostware (551290) | more than 2 years ago | (#38826995)

This will affect those stupid enough to use their ISP's email address, and call on their normal landline or contract phone.

Others will use IRC channels, (occasionally) instant messaging, cycle through disposable or free web-mail accounts, use pre-paid no-contract mobiles using forged details, or just keep bribing those handling the data - just as they've done before.

In fact this really is just theatre with a few headlining arrests to come... (which will be arranged through the previous wiretaps, investigation, and existing lawful methods)

The NBN will guarantee data collection (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38827257)

If any Australian really believes that this government is not the Pure Evil of Communism, look no further than the NBN.

Paid with taxpayer money, hopelessly uncompetitive, mandated and unavoidable.

You must EXPECT your every action recorded, indexed and used against you. Monstrous bureaucracies will be developed and the witch hunts will begin on Day 1.

The Stasi and Gestapo would have been overjoyed with such a system.

Our children will look back at us and curse us.

If you aren't ashamed of it... (1)

thereitis (2355426) | more than 2 years ago | (#38827625)

Make the data available to the people being monitored. Be super up-front about it. If people don't like it, they will use other ways to communicate with each other.

YUO FAIL$ IT. (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38827675)

the mundane cho8es most. Look at the users of NetBSD volume of NetBSD the public eye: leeson and

Bush's fault. (1)

wganz (113345) | more than 2 years ago | (#38827719)

As always. :-\

Retention driven by Storage Companies? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38827907)

How much of these log requirements are privately being driven by Data Storage Companies? Just think about it a little bit. What businesses benefit from policies, rules, and regulations that require logs be kept around? 1+1+1+1+1+...+n = a bunch of hdd space being consumed.

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