Beta
×

Welcome to the Slashdot Beta site -- learn more here. Use the link in the footer or click here to return to the Classic version of Slashdot.

Thank you!

Before you choose to head back to the Classic look of the site, we'd appreciate it if you share your thoughts on the Beta; your feedback is what drives our ongoing development.

Beta is different and we value you taking the time to try it out. Please take a look at the changes we've made in Beta and  learn more about it. Thanks for reading, and for making the site better!

Nokia CEO Blames Salesmen For Windows Phone Struggles

Soulskill posted more than 2 years ago | from the in-the-case-of-chicken-v-egg dept.

Microsoft 435

An anonymous reader writes "Steven Elop of Nokia has placed some of the blame for the struggles of Windows Phone on mobile phone shops — for not pushing it. As The Register points out, sales staff 'want their commission,' and tend to only show phones they think might sell. Exact details of Windows Phone sales numbers are being covered up by both Microsoft and Nokia, who refuse to state specifics; sales figures to operators are stated at one million, but the majority of those seem to be unsold to consumers, and neither Microsoft nor Nokia will give numbers on activations. The best available numbers seem to be maximum Lumia sales estimates from Tomi Ahonen, a former Nokia Executive and the only analyst to correctly predict Nokia's market share fall for the end of 2011. Nokia's Lumia sold around 600,000 phones in 2011 (again, including the large portion in warehouses). One of the worst signs for WP8 is that Nokia's N9 — despite being crippled without marketing, and often selling at full price compared to the almost fully subsidized Lumia phones — is selling better than Nokia's Windows phones, with 1.5M or more phones reaching end users. Interestingly, if the Nokia N9 had been available in all markets, it might have sold almost 5M units and pushed Nokia into profitability."

cancel ×

435 comments

Sorry! There are no comments related to the filter you selected.

Hahaha!!!! (0, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38870043)

gaaahahahaa... "that" hahahaa... "sure" buahahahaaaa "didn't take long.." xD

Re:Hahaha!!!! (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38870423)

gaaahahahaa... "that" hahahaa... "sure" buahahahaaaa "didn't take long.." xD

Nokia users are not stupid, although Nokia CEO sure seems like one.

Re:Hahaha!!!! (4, Funny)

Hognoxious (631665) | more than 2 years ago | (#38870655)

Nokia users are not stupid

I bought an E71 and I can certainly say that it wasn't the smartest decision I ever made.

"...only show phones they think might sell." (4, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38870047)

Then maybe you should fire your marketing department, because clearly you are trying to convert the wrong people.

Re:"...only show phones they think might sell." (4, Insightful)

tripleevenfall (1990004) | more than 2 years ago | (#38870239)

The phones don't sell because they run WP7.

The phones run WP7 because Nokia sold its remaining soul to MSFT.

Nokia sold its remaining soul to MSFT in exchange for continued existence.

Prolonging the inevitable doesn't make it any less inevitable.

Re:"...only show phones they think might sell." (4, Insightful)

AngryDeuce (2205124) | more than 2 years ago | (#38870331)

The phones don't sell because they run WP7.

Pretty much. I gave up on any Microsoft-based phone long ago. My last handset (HTC XV6800) was running WinMo 6.0 and it was such a piece of shit. I had to reboot the damn thing multiple times a day due to freezes and shit...

Never again...

Re:"...only show phones they think might sell." (4, Informative)

Samantha Wright (1324923) | more than 2 years ago | (#38870501)

To be fair, and just in case you didn't know, WinPhone 7 is very, very heavily rewritten from the WinMo days of yore. (Not that I'd ever voluntarily touch one myself.)

Re:"...only show phones they think might sell." (5, Insightful)

turgid (580780) | more than 2 years ago | (#38870569)

very heavily rewritten

A whole load of new bugs to deal with!

Re:"...only show phones they think might sell." (1)

noh8rz2 (2538714) | more than 2 years ago | (#38870591)

I'm on virgin mobile, so i don't get access to new spiffy phones, but once a winmo phone comes to the carrier i'll drop my android pos (lg optimus v).

Re:"...only show phones they think might sell." (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38870511)

My HTC HD2 that I bought running WinMo 6.5 is AWESOME, especially since I have it running a vanilla copy of ICS

Re:"...only show phones they think might sell." (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38870519)

Yeah, back in the day Windows Mobile/Windows CE were the only game in town with decent CPUs and a really wide spectrum of available apps, but the OS itself was never a significant attraction. Who knows, maybe MS will get it right this time, or this time, or yet another time, but who's gonna be the guinea pig after they got burned the last few rounds?

Re:"...only show phones they think might sell." (4, Interesting)

Bedouin X (254404) | more than 2 years ago | (#38870547)

For what it's worth, I had Windows Mobile 5, 6, and 6.5 phones. The non-touch Blackberry-style phones (e.g Moto Q) were decent but the touch phones were a buggy unstable mess in no small part due to the crapware that came pre-installed on many though I'm sure the OS design was the primary culprit.

After being convinced to go to Android and an EVO 4g, I had a chance to use a WP7 phone in the store and was pleasantly surprised. You can't really understand how interesting WP7 is until it's in your hands. I have owned the WP7 Phone (HTC Arrive) since last April and the thing has locked up on me exactly once, and it recovered about about 20 seconds (disclaimer: I don't install a ton of apps on my phone). It is a completely different experience. Probably not everyone's cup of tea, but it is light years ahead of Windows Mobile and, in several ways that matter to me, ahead of Android and iOS.

Re:"...only show phones they think might sell." (3, Interesting)

V!NCENT (1105021) | more than 2 years ago | (#38870525)

Have you seen the sales figures? While it's true that Nokia loses marketshare percentage doesn't mean it is losing sales. On the contrary: iPhone and Android have just been outpacing Symbian devices in an exponentialy growing market (not only just of smartphones, but also developping countries).

Not just that; sales have been going up in Q4 of 2011 compared to Q3 of 2011.

And also; Nokia Belle (Symbian^3 Belle) is now the most advance smartphone OS on the planet. If you think I'm kidding, just look at this shit:
-Qt4.7.4;
-All UI features of Android and iOS combined and added upon;
-NFC;
-USB-host;
-Mini-HDMI;
-Running on monsterglas with Amoled and ClearBlack devices;
-Running on the phone with still the best camera to date: Better than iPhone4S;
-Media Centre;
-Microsoft mobile version of OneNote, Powerpoint viewer, Sharepoint and the rest of that stuff;
-Official Exchange compatibility;
-Swap (never ever out of RAM with these 250MB+16GB flash storage devices);
-HTMLv5 browser + mobile Adobe Flash;
-Facebook and Twitter VPN;
-VoIP (not an app; incorporated into the OS!);
-Build in internet Radio;
-Nokia offline Maps;
-Et-freacking-cetera.

The OVI store has more downloads per day than Apple's and Android's Appstore/Market. Symbian smartphones webbrowser agents are turning up higher in numbers than Android and iOS combined and growing still.

Also about 75% of the worlds 3G network is Nokia-Siemens.

You know what Nokia did to Microsoft? "Lol give us money and software", so then later they can drop it again, just like they did with European Union donations for open sourcing Symbian, to later close it again. Nokia demanded Qt software on WP7, and right now Nokia is improving upon the N9 UI and working on a long-taking Symbian replacement, based on Linux.

Who's fucking who?

Re:"...only show phones they think might sell." (4, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38870565)

Not just that; sales have been going up in Q4 of 2011 compared to Q3 of 2011.

Wow. I wonder if anything happens in Q4 that involves people buying stuff. If we could figure that out then it could be a major breakthrough in marketing.

Re:"...only show phones they think might sell." (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38870609)

the ovi store has so many downloads because people try all the crap out and realize it does not work right... i give up on my nokia E55, and new nokias. Why cant they make a quad band, dual sim phone.

Re:"...only show phones they think might sell." (1, Informative)

V!NCENT (1105021) | more than 2 years ago | (#38870685)

Moron, the E55 is Symbian S60: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S60_(software_platform) [wikipedia.org]
It is outdated recycled crap for cheap phones.

I'm talking about the Symbian^3 platform: http://www.allaboutsymbian.com/features/item/14093_Reasons_NOT_to_want_Symbian_Be.php [allaboutsymbian.com]
Kinda different?

Re:"...only show phones they think might sell." (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38870643)

Who's fucking who?

Although I agree that Nokia terminals, mostly those belonging to the E-series are top notch that outperform iphones, androids and wp7, Nokia is still playing a very dangerous game. I would love nothing more than Nokia ditching Microsoft after having used Microsoft's hundreds of milions of $ to advance a true successor to symbian OS. But there is a real risk that Microsoft wil, simply buy Nokia and if it doesn't work they will toss the empty shell by the wayside. And the mobile world will be truely poorer.

Re:"...only show phones they think might sell." (5, Insightful)

Jerry Atrick (2461566) | more than 2 years ago | (#38870647)

How do you propose Nokia will do anything now most of the engineers were either sacked, walked or were transferred out of Nokia along with the IP?

Nokia were up shit creek bereft of paddles before MS infiltrated them, with engineers incapable of finishing any of their new OS projects. MS and WP7 just took away the boat as well and put concrete boots on the company.

Re:"...only show phones they think might sell." (4, Insightful)

j35ter (895427) | more than 2 years ago | (#38870663)

Hope you're right. I am not a Nokia fanboy ... actually, I never really liked Nokia, but it would be a shame to see a corrupt CEO bringing down one of the most innovative companies in the TelCo market.

Re:"...only show phones they think might sell." (2, Funny)

Hognoxious (631665) | more than 2 years ago | (#38870705)

an exponentialy growing market

You literally have shit for brains.

Re:"...only show phones they think might sell." (1)

Pentium100 (1240090) | more than 2 years ago | (#38870729)

Are there any phones running that OS that have a keypad? Typing SMS on a virtual keyboard sucks.

Re:"...only show phones they think might sell." (3, Interesting)

GlassHeart (579618) | more than 2 years ago | (#38870649)

Prolonging the inevitable doesn't make it any less inevitable.

That's not actually true. Even just breaking even means that you don't have to lay off employees with important skills and knowledge, and watch them go work for competitors. It means buying yourself some time for R&D to catch up. It means time for a competitor or two to make a mistake. People forget how many years Apple struggled with "inevitable" bankruptcy, that as recently as 2003 you could've had a share of AAPL for $7.

Re:"...only show phones they think might sell." (1)

kanguro (1237830) | more than 2 years ago | (#38870665)

Insightful? Clueless I'd say... I have tested iOS, Android and WP7 handsets and programmed for all of them. WP7 is way better than android form the user experience standpoint. It does not get to the iOS level, but is near there. The only problem the WP7 guys have is marketing and choice. They don't know how to sell it, and they don't have enough models to offer a decent choice. Some zealots in this forum trumpet often Microsoft's demise. Good luck with that.

Re:"...only show phones they think might sell." (1)

blind biker (1066130) | more than 2 years ago | (#38870703)

It was not inevitable. Nokia had MeeGo, Qt and the N9. What better proof that MeeGo strategy would have had at least a fighting chance, than the success of the N9?

If only they would push our crap... (4, Funny)

Kenja (541830) | more than 2 years ago | (#38870053)

then they'd love us. Or hate us. Which ever, we'd have more money.

True stories (5, Interesting)

recoiledsnake (879048) | more than 2 years ago | (#38870055)

People have been so fed of this that made a site with horror stories listed on a map.

http://wptattletale.com/retail-locations [wptattletale.com]

People who even walk in looking for Windows Phones are steered towards Android phones.

Re:True stories (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38870161)

Maybe because of high return rates on windows phones? having a phone return would not be good for your commission

Re:True stories (4, Interesting)

DeathFromSomewhere (940915) | more than 2 years ago | (#38870227)

It's nothing to do with return rates. Sales staff make commissions on selling androids and iPhones but not on WP7. There have been anecdotal stories of sales staff that have refused to even sell WP7 phones to people that walk in looking for one. They will try to push an android isntead.

Fine fanboy (5, Informative)

SmallFurryCreature (593017) | more than 2 years ago | (#38870269)

Explain the N9 then, actively crippled by Nokia itself, not for sale in shops in many countries AND still it sells more.

Also, how does webshop push you to another phone then the one you are searching for?

Re:Fine fanboy (5, Informative)

tripleevenfall (1990004) | more than 2 years ago | (#38870309)

Explain the N9 then, actively crippled by Nokia itself, not for sale in shops in many countries AND still it sells more.

It doesn't run WP7.

Re:Fine fanboy (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38870447)

Which is one of it's main advantages...

Re:Fine fanboy (5, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38870653)

Yes, but sales staff don't make commissions on i he N9 (because they don't fucking OFFER it), and yet people get online, find an importer who sells this phone with the last-of-line OS and consequent grim support outlook (and, outside Europe, not even any warranty at all!), and buy them -- surely this sales mechanism is equally plausible for WinPhone7 phones, actually more so, since they are warrantied, and can expect OS updates for a long time, but it doesn't happen in volumes anything like the N9.

Possibly because (practically) nobody wants WP7 phones? This was the GP's point.

Re:Fine fanboy (3, Funny)

R3d M3rcury (871886) | more than 2 years ago | (#38870559)

Simple.

From the sounds of it, people who want the N9 are buying the N9. They walk into the shop and say, "Sell me a Nokia N9. dammit!" (or something similar).

Conversely, somebody walks into the shop and says, "Hi! I'm thinking of buying a smartphone and I hear good things about the Nokia Lumia 900." the salesperson says, "You don't want that! You want the Motorola RAZR! It's lighter, faster, has a bigger screen, and I get a SPIF for each one that I sell--oops! Did I say that out loud?"

Re:Fine fanboy (0)

DeathFromSomewhere (940915) | more than 2 years ago | (#38870687)

Really? I'm a fanboy because I posted factual information without any opinions? Uh huh.

Lumia phones have only been on sale for 2 months and only in a handful of countries. Even still, they managed to somewhere around 1.3 million of them according to bloomberg. The numbers in the summary come from TFA where the author spends about 5 paragraphs extrapolating from numbers he apparently pulled out of his ass.

I can't find real sales figures for the N9.

Re:True stories (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38870299)

Why wouldn't they make commission on selling WP7 phones? I don't know any store that doesn't give commission for selling something?

Re:True stories (0)

DeathFromSomewhere (940915) | more than 2 years ago | (#38870469)

The commissions I'm talking about don't come from the stores, they come from Apple and Google. Microsoft doesn't pay anything out yet (there is $100 million set aside for marketing in the first half of 2012).

Re:True stories (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38870673)

well whose fault is that?

Re:True stories (4, Informative)

Bedouin X (254404) | more than 2 years ago | (#38870633)

I used to sell phones and special phone commissions, known as spiffs when I was selling, can indeed vary from phone to phone and carrier to carrier. The thing is you used to get a percentage of the retail price of the phone and you also got a special spiff that was independent of the price. So you could sell a $9.99 phone with a $290 subsidy and make $15 on the phone (assuming a 5% commission) and then get a $20 spiff on top of it. Sell 10 phones a day and you did pretty good. Sometimes the spiffs were linked to all phones for a specific carrier and sometimes specific models (though probably still paid by the carrier).

I have no idea what the rates are like now, but it is absolutely plausible that iPhones and Android phones could be more attractive to sales people than Windows Phones if there are specific model spiffs in play.

Re:True stories (3, Informative)

Ynot_82 (1023749) | more than 2 years ago | (#38870193)

MS marketing dept. have been so fed of this that they made a site....

FTFY

Re:True stories (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38870219)

I have a co-worker that bought a windows phone, and a brother that tried to buy one. Both have similar stories of salesmen saying "Windows phone? you don't want that, you want an iPhone, or this Droid." I don't know the salesmen motivations, but that is their experience (at Verizon shops).

Re:True stories (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38870345)

I don't know the salesmen motivations

They're trying to steer their customers away from a substandard product.

Re:True stories (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38870455)

I think the issue is that they were told or remember that past Win phones were terrible, so they aren't in any hurry to repeat that.

Re:True stories (3, Interesting)

ahabswhale (1189519) | more than 2 years ago | (#38870281)

This actually happened to me this last weekend when I went to the T-Mobile booth in the mall and asked about the Lumia 710 and was strongly encouraged to look the other way. They did relent and show me the phone (which they said was charging because the battery was fully drained but when they handed it to me, it was fully charged) but I had to be persistent.

three words: WORLD'S SMALLEST VIOLIN (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38870359)

For decades, Microsoft made damn sure that it was really hard to buy a PC with an operating system other than Windows from anybody other than Apple. And it didn't stem from a tendency of salespeople to seek commissions, it was done with draconian contracts and dirty back-room deals.

As soon as they enter a market where they don't have the clout to demand hardware manufacturers pay a royalty for every unit sold, whether or not an MS operating system is included, they start whining about salespeople pushing what they think will sell.

Re:three words: WORLD'S SMALLEST VIOLIN (1)

grimmjeeper (2301232) | more than 2 years ago | (#38870491)

Actually, Microsoft gets more on patent revenue for every Android phone sold than they make on Windows phones: link. [osnews.com] I'm not sure how they approach this conflict of interest. They'd be better off, financially anyway, by losing sales to their competitor.

However, you do have a point about their inability to force vendors to sell their software for every piece of hardware. It's a business model they don't have any experience with and they appear incapable of getting any market penetration as a result.

Re:True stories (3, Interesting)

Missing.Matter (1845576) | more than 2 years ago | (#38870371)

People who even walk in looking for Windows Phones are steered towards Android phones.

Had personal experience with this one. I went in to AT&T to see the new HTC Titan when it came out. Asked to see it by name and without skipping a beat he directs me to the Samsung Galaxy (II? I can't remember what it was). Now I can only assume what happens when someone goes in and asks "I'm interested in a smartphone, this is what I do, this is what I need, what do you have"... probably shows them right to an Android phone.

Anecdotal (1)

DogDude (805747) | more than 2 years ago | (#38870481)

I walked into a Sprint store and purchased a Windows phone without the salesman batting an eye just the other day.

Re:Anecdotal (1)

Bedouin X (254404) | more than 2 years ago | (#38870717)

I bought mine from a Sprint store as well and had no problems either. The saleswoman actually spoke highly of the OS - which had only been out maybe 6 months at the time - and was very well-trained on its features. They weren't selling iPhones yet though...

Re:True stories (2)

LWATCDR (28044) | more than 2 years ago | (#38870497)

Simple reason for that.
There are no really good high end WP7 phones for sale in the US.
The best one right now is probably the Nokia Lumia 710 from TMobile.
Verizon has spent a lot of money on the whole Droid campaign and has the Droid Razor, Droid Razor Maxx, and the new Galaxy Nexus not to mention the iPhone 4s.
Sprint Has the Epic Touch and iPhone 4s.
AT&T has lived on the iPhone line for so long and now has several Android phones.
So only TMobile has anything really new and let's face it. They all know Android better than WP7 and their is no really big reason to "push" WP7.
 

The MultiBen Phone (2)

multiben (1916126) | more than 2 years ago | (#38870057)

I invented my own mobile device. It is fully awesome. I blame its lack of success on the fact that no-one would agree to manufacture it.

He's right... (0)

bennomatic (691188) | more than 2 years ago | (#38870071)

I had to practically bribe the salesguy to sell me an iPhone. No wonder iPhones are selling so poorly!

Sounds about right... (4, Informative)

jamstar7 (694492) | more than 2 years ago | (#38870097)

Have a marginal product that you can't sell? Blame it on anybody other than the designers/manufacturers. Let's ignore the fact that Microsoft wrote the specs for the phone as well as the operating system, let's ignore that the phone is locked up tighter than a 14 year old Mormon virgin, let's ignore the fact that there's been practically no marketting and advertising for this brick. It's the salesmen's fault, pure and simple.

Re:Sounds about right... (4, Informative)

zlogic (892404) | more than 2 years ago | (#38870251)

let's ignore the fact that there's been practically no marketting and advertising for this brick

Technically, Nokia Lumia isn't yet on sale in the US. And in Europe, Limua phones are heavily promoted - in my area ads for these phones are everywhere, on TV, billboards, radio and mobile phone stores. This is sad because even with this insane amount of promotion they're still having trouble selling the thing.

Re:Sounds about right... (1)

Imbrondir (2367812) | more than 2 years ago | (#38870641)

Heavily is an understatement. The Lumia has supposedly the biggest marketing push in Nokias history.

Estimate numbers? (3, Informative)

vlm (69642) | more than 2 years ago | (#38870111)

tend to only show phones they think might sell

They must have more business sense than Elop? We'll see who's still in business next year, ye olde cellphone shoppe or Nokia. I... would bet on the cellphone shop.

Exact details of Windows Phone sales numbers are being covered up by both Microsoft and Nokia, who refuse to state specifics

Must be extremely bad if its coverup time. Even the Zune figures weren't kept this well buried. Aren't there stats from "popular" apps like the facebook app or angry birds where you can assume 75% of owners have those 3rd party apps, therefore if they have 750K sales of AB or FB on the MS app store or whatever, they would probably therefore have about 1M phones out in the wild?

Re:Estimate numbers? (5, Interesting)

N1ckR (1289800) | more than 2 years ago | (#38870197)

https://www.facebook.com/apps/application.php?id=7933375107&sk=wall [facebook.com] 1.3 million monthly users of the Facebook app on WP7 According to http://techcrunch.com/2011/12/17/facebook-android-iphone/ [techcrunch.com] facebook for android has 85.4 million users montly, IOS has 99.1 million monthly users.

Re:Estimate numbers? (1)

Bedouin X (254404) | more than 2 years ago | (#38870751)

This metric is a little faulty since there is much less need for a Facebook app on Windows Phone due to the OS integration.

Re:Estimate numbers? (2)

UnknowingFool (672806) | more than 2 years ago | (#38870287)

Some estimates are a million but we don't know if that is shipped or sold. We also don't know how many were to MS employees. Employees are entitled to a free phone but they have to buy it themselves and get reimbursed later. Also I've seen some major discounts ($50 for Win 7 phone with 2 year contract but I can't remember if it was the Lumia). My take is that the phone is different than iPhone or Android. It does some things better; some thing worse, but nothing outstanding. At this point it will be a matter of personal preference. It seems most consumers are preferring Android or iPhone.

Elop, do you want to go down w/ the ship? (4, Informative)

sethstorm (512897) | more than 2 years ago | (#38870141)

"Steven Elop of Nokia has placed some of the blame for the struggles of Windows Phone on mobile phone shops â" for not pushing it. As The Register points out, sales staff 'want their commission,' and tend to only show phones they think might sell

Those salespersons know something about those phones that "burning platform" Elop does not. WP7 on Nokia does not sell.

Interestingly, if the Nokia N9 had been available in all markets, it might have sold almost 5M units and pushed Nokia into profitability."

Truer words not said.

Only Schettino of the Costa Concordia could have done worse.

Re:Elop, do you want to go down w/ the ship? (4, Insightful)

PolygamousRanchKid (1290638) | more than 2 years ago | (#38870297)

Interestingly, if the Nokia N9 had been available in all markets, it might have sold almost 5M units and pushed Nokia into profitability."

Truer words not said.

I noticed last week in a big electronics store in Germany, that N9s were now on sale there. Originally, they were not sold here . . . but Amazon Germany sold imports from Austria. It will be interesting to see if this starts to spread to other markets.

I'm sure the Austrian sales force made their quota for N9s.

Re:Elop, do you want to go down w/ the ship? (1)

should_be_linear (779431) | more than 2 years ago | (#38870699)

Exectly. Producing WP phones nowdays seems like pissing in your pants for warmth.

HAHA (0, Flamebait)

Aryden (1872756) | more than 2 years ago | (#38870143)

Blame everyone but yourselves for making phones that are NOT feature rich and running a shitty OS. My phone was a native WP 6.5 phone. It now has WP 6.5 (never use), WP 7 (never use), 3 builds of Android and 1 build of Ubuntu.... Oh and it's an HTC. I used to be a huge Nokia fan form back in the day when I sold them, but now...get with the program folks.

Phones should be like build your own pc's. You sell me the hardware, I choose which OS I want on it. In the end, that's how it's going to be for me and one of the major reasons I have not upgraded in 2 years.

Re:HAHA (1)

Pentium100 (1240090) | more than 2 years ago | (#38870365)

Yea, or at least make a good OS.

Yes, I use Windows on my desktop PC,on my laptop and will buy an UMPC with Windows, but this is so that I would have consistency among them (whatever I can run on my desktop, I can run on my laptop or the UMPC, but slower - no need to look for new software that does the same (and has the same data formats) as the software on my desktop). If WP7 supported x86 apps, it would be different, but now it's the same as iOS or Android or Symbian, so I might as well use an OS that is not so locked up.

I used to be a Nokia fan (still am a fan of their older phones) because of the hardware. But now I cannot find a good smartphone that has a keypad (instead of just a touchscreen) so I still use my 6 year old Nokia N93 (among other features, it has a good keypad with big keys).

So Microsoft... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38870163)

How does it feel?

So how is this any better? (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38870165)

The people selling it, the "experts" as it were, have no faith in the product. That doesn't sound better than the consumers having no faith in the product.

Too true (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38870177)

I went to the BIG3 stores here in Toronto (Telus, Rogers, Bell) with the intent of buying WP7 and none of the sales reps had any idea about the devices. Here's their sales pitch: "Do you want an iPhone? No? Then here are our top 3 most expensive android devices." One rep actively tried to talk me out of getting WP7.

I love my LG Optimus 7 (E900) and second the opinion that sales reps are not helping WP7 get the attention it deserves. Microsoft should sponsor some workshops to show of their OS to the public and to phone reps.

Re:Too true (1)

Aryden (1872756) | more than 2 years ago | (#38870265)

Phone reps aren't stupid, atleast not any more stupid than any other sales reps. They push what they know they can sell and they can sell iPhones and Android phones. If a rep tries to push WP phones on me, first question is, "Is it rootable?". "Can I install Android on it?" if no, then move along.

Re:Too true (1)

bhcompy (1877290) | more than 2 years ago | (#38870571)

It's fairly easy to root. Get the MFG password, set a half dozen reg keys through the phone, bam, rooted.

Everything according to plan (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38870215)

Wasn't that exactly the plan for Steven Elop? Destroy Nokia and make sure their mobile platform dies with them. Afterwards, get a nice pay-off and return to Microsoft or one of their shadow companies.

In breaking news... (5, Informative)

0123456 (636235) | more than 2 years ago | (#38870223)

Salesmen sell things that people want to buy. Full story at 11.

Re:In breaking news... (2)

grimmjeeper (2301232) | more than 2 years ago | (#38870395)

In other news, The Pope found to be Catholic. "I've always known I was Catholic since I was a child" declared the Pontiff in Rome. Also, bears found to defecate in the woods. "After a 5 year study, we came to the conclusion that bears did not leave the forest to 'take care of business'" declared Professor Gzint of the Wildlife Study Society.

You deserved it for abandoning Meego (5, Insightful)

cribera (2560179) | more than 2 years ago | (#38870225)

Meego project had huge potential, but you went for the quick bucks.

Oh man, the MS fanboys are going to cry tonight (5, Interesting)

SmallFurryCreature (593017) | more than 2 years ago | (#38870247)

The dutch wanna-be tech site tweakers.net ran this figure a day or two ago... and you had fanboy after fanboy proudly proclaiming that 1 million sales to vendors showed just how this was the end of Android and iPhone and the full victory of MS and Windows Phone 7... ignoring quite easily that Android has 700.000 activations a DAY and that the latest iPhone does something like 4 million in a weekend.

MS market share on the mobile market has always been and continues to be laughable but being outsold by a Linux phone that has no marketting and isn't available in the west? That is just beyond sad, it might even be time for shareholders to start questioning if Nokia is upholding its duty as a publicly traded company to maximize shareholder value.

Missing from this story is that MS is funding Nokia for quite a lot of money, I believe it came down to about 150 or so dollars per sold MS phone IS they actually sold 1 million (185 million subsidy).

Some MS fanboys already admit that 7 and 7.5 are already duds but surely 8 will be the lucky numbers (actually a far higher version number but who can keep track when failure comes so fast and reliable) but without any real claims.

The sad part is that MS doing so badly isn't helping the market any, competion is good for the customer and right now there just isn't any from MS.

Elop should just be fired by the shareholders, how can you claim with a straight face that your phone doesn't sell through the fault of the shops when the phone you won't put in the shops outsells it by a gigantic margin?

If any Nokia shares are still in private hands, I would be highly suprised if this story won't have a tail (shares owned by MS and MS friends don't count of course).

Re:Oh man, the MS fanboys are going to cry tonight (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38870375)

... 700.000 activations a day ...

[Citation Needed]

Re:Oh man, the MS fanboys are going to cry tonight (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38870539)

http://techcrunch.com/2011/12/22/android-700000/

Hope that is sufficient.

Re:Oh man, the MS fanboys are going to cry tonight (2)

DogDude (805747) | more than 2 years ago | (#38870515)

I just bought a windows 7 Phone and it works just fine. There are more than enough "apps" for it, but I don't really care since I got mine for Outlook/Exchange, and not for playing games. I really don't care how many they sell.

Re:Oh man, the MS fanboys are going to cry tonight (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38870737)

Mostly this.
I have a lumia 800 and I like it just fine.
Sure I'm a bit pissed that there is still no skype, but I can't really blame nokia for that.
The n9 is definitely a nicer phone in terms of hardware, but in terms of apps it just as bad as the lumia.
The only thing I'm a bit worried about is the inevitable virus spreading through every windows phone.
Although, I guess that might not be a problem if the sales numbers keep up.

Re:Oh man, the MS fanboys are going to cry tonight (2)

rsborg (111459) | more than 2 years ago | (#38870657)

Elop should just be fired by the shareholders

If the shareholders are really going to fire Elop, they should first fire the Board that hand-selected him.

Perhaps the shareholders that did "get it" decided to leave in droves and never come back [1]... voting with your (lack of) participation is sometimes the most powerful message you can send.

[1] https://www.google.com/finance?client=ob&q=NYSE:NOK [google.com]

Re:Oh man, the MS fanboys are going to cry tonight (2)

rahvin112 (446269) | more than 2 years ago | (#38870723)

Android is FREE. Phone makers are free to customize it and do whatever they want with it, they just have the replace the Google apps with something else and call it something other than Android (like droid for example). Who needs a dozen different solutions when you have one that anyone can take and customize? Windows Phone isn't needed and IMO will likely never take off.

The salesmen don't sell it because it's got a huge return rate (more than half come back), and Nokia has no one to blame but the Board of Directors, they hired Elop, they endorsed his Windows Phone strategy and they continue to support him. They absolutely knew what they were getting into when they hired a former MS employee. If you're a shareholder of Nokia you should be demanding the board be replaced so Elop can be fired.

Re:Oh man, the MS fanboys are going to cry tonight (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38870755)

According to some the Lumia 800 was the top selling phone on http://www.kpn.com/mobiel/alle-telefoons.cat [kpn.com]
(KPN being the largest mobile provider (ex monopolist)) for a couple of weeks. Last week it was second to an iphone4s, now it is third:
1: BlackBerry Torch 9860
2: Samsung Galaxy S II
3: Nokia Lumia 800
4: iPhone 4S 16GB, zwart
5: Samsung Galaxy S Plus

This is a bit of a strange statistic considering the sales of iphone4s were most like at their highest for a couple of months to come.

Might as well Blame the Consumer! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38870249)

Of course sales people prefers to push products that sell well. Elop, might as well have blamed the consumer for not buying!

Could it simply be that WP Nokia are crap? (3, Insightful)

DannyTUK (2469406) | more than 2 years ago | (#38870263)

Elop has shown his ignorance in the way mobile phones are sold (at least in the UK). The pressure on sales staff is incredible to make the numbers. They cannot afford to put all of their efforts into selling a lame duck. And the public are all buying iPhones, Android and BlackBerry smartphones. The WP7 Nokia Lumia are not generating much if any interest in the buying public. So the sales staff are going to focus on all and anything that will fly off the shelf, and WP7, no matter how much smoke Elop blow up our arses about how good it is (it isn't) will make a blind bit of difference. Nice try Nokia. Now do the right thing, swallow your pride and put Android on the N8 and be prepared to be hit with a tsunami of orders.

What about Windows Mobile? (2)

kirkb (158552) | more than 2 years ago | (#38870295)

Blaming WP7's failures on every mobile phone salesperson all over the world is a cop-out.

Remember Windows Mobile? It powered several nice smartphones, especially models from HTC. Those sold very very well up until the iPhone took over. Did salesmen require bribes to sell those?

Re:What about Windows Mobile? (1)

Anne Thwacks (531696) | more than 2 years ago | (#38870611)

Windows Mobile? It powered several nice smartphones

Not sure about the nice - they crashed a lot, lost data and applications, and there were no software updates, no matter how diabolical the bugs.

You know when you have a winphone! You sure as hell wont do that twice!

Re:What about Windows Mobile? (1)

DogDude (805747) | more than 2 years ago | (#38870617)

It still exists. They just renamed it. (This post done with a brand new HTC phone running Windows that does all of the same things as an iPhone, but costs hundreds of dollars less)

The problem is the brand, not the OS. (3, Insightful)

Qwavel (733416) | more than 2 years ago | (#38870315)

From what I've seen of the reviews, WP is a pretty good OS, and the Lumia phones are being sold at pretty competitive prices with lots of marketing behind them. So, now MS and Nokia are fishing around for explanations for why they aren't selling to consumers.

The answer is the MS brand. After years of pushing crap on users, using nasty and anti-consumer tactics to fight their competitors, and trying to harm the Internet, MS is a tarnished consumer brand - surprise, surprise.

Obviously, I think this is fair, but I also think it is fair that consumers and the industry re-evaulate brands. MS has been much better behaved in recent years (e.g. they are trying to win the browser wars by making their browser better) so maybe they deserve a second chance?

Re:The problem is the brand, not the OS. (0)

bongey (974911) | more than 2 years ago | (#38870389)

making their browser better

Does it run on Linux? No you say, guess I cannot give them a second chance.

Re:The problem is the brand, not the OS. (2, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38870421)

It's alot of stuff, brand being one of them. Tomi Ahonen has a really detailed analysis of lumia's failure, much of which is abandoning Nokia's way of doing things and alot of it is about wp being utter crap and Elop handling things catastrophically.

The real Top 13 reasons why Nokia Lumia and Windows Phone will fail, not just in USA but across planet [blogs.com]

It's worth reading.

Re:The problem is the brand, not the OS. (4, Insightful)

icebraining (1313345) | more than 2 years ago | (#38870585)

MS has been much better behaved in recent years

Suing TomTom over ridiculous patents is not better behavior, especially since the only reason to use the technology in the first place is to interact with their OS and its ill-gained market dominance.

OMG Really? (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38870325)

Salesmen only want to sell what will sell? Alert the media! The product with the better commission structure gets pushed harder? I'm shocked. SHOCKED, I tell you!

Always hard to be the third option (5, Insightful)

halfaperson (1885704) | more than 2 years ago | (#38870463)

I sold audio equipment for a couple of years and one of the first things I got to learn was to always give the customer TWO options. Unless the customer seemed unhappy with both choices, introducing a third option would only make the buying decision harder often resulting in a "need to go home and think about it"-response. This of course combined with lazy salespersons who doesn't feel they need to learn anything more than they absolutely need to close a deal.

This isn't exactly news to people in sales. Anyone trying to enter as a "third option" will have an extemely tough time trying to break through in the market, even if their product is better in many aspects.

(And as with any golden "rule of thumb" within sales, there is of course a shitload of exceptions, but I doubt the smartphone market is one of them)

Yep (0)

obarthelemy (160321) | more than 2 years ago | (#38870507)

Crap don't sell because sales rep suck. And raids wipe because healers suck.

Next: but, Your Honor, she was really asking for it !

Why is this so hard to get for execs? (0)

Qbertino (265505) | more than 2 years ago | (#38870555)

Remember when OS X and thus Apple started to gain in users? Why was that?

It was because OS X was catering to the right people: The opinion leaders. To us.
We were the ones who said to their friends: 'Windows crap. Linux to difficult. Mac OS X is best of both worlds. iPhoto is easy, on OS level it's just jpegs in folders. Mail.app uses mbox, readable with any Editor. And iTunes needs 3 clicks for it to convert to mp3 rather aac. No larger problems in avoiding lockin. Get an iMac or a Mac Mini.' Even today with Lion and their ongoing move to vertical lockin it's still a better option than Windows and Linux, hardware wise anyway.

The very same thing goes for mobile phones. It doesn't suprise me the least that N9 sales are better. It runs Symbian which has an IDE that is free, runs on all 3 major Desktops (and yes, Linux *is* a major desktop with developers) and is, AFAICT, better than Apples XCode. They should offer two variants of the Lumina line, Windows and Symbian, and take it from there, just to be sure. However, I'd already bet money that with ongoing development and maintainance for the Qt Creator IDE Symbian would win. It's such a wonderful OS and has solid potential of kicking Androids ass and rivaling iOS. ...
Nokia has screwed around to much and fragmented to much of their software base ... for the markets sake, I hope they can turn this around before going the way of the dodo. If they'd manage that we'd finally have a valid competitor to Apple sans the fragmented platform that Android is becoming.

My 2 cents.

Re:Why is this so hard to get for execs? (4, Informative)

vadim_t (324782) | more than 2 years ago | (#38870733)

N9 doesn't run Symbian. It runs Harmattan, which is a transitional system between Maemo and Meego. It's Linux based. From the userspace it looks a lot like a normal Linux system, though the N900 was much better in that respect.

My own non-scientific study.. (1)

Lashat (1041424) | more than 2 years ago | (#38870561)

of the TV commercials I fast-forward thru and the billboards I pass on the road. I have seen ZERO Nokia ads and few Windows Phone ads.

Windows is not cool (2)

thetoadwarrior (1268702) | more than 2 years ago | (#38870583)

Windows sucks. Face it most people had a bad experience with Windows even if it's their own fault. It's also something their company uses so a lot of people associate their distaste of work with Windows. Combine that with the fact it doesn't look that cool and offers nothing all the other phones have and you have to question why anyone would want one.

The N9 is absolutely fantastic (5, Interesting)

Flavio (12072) | more than 2 years ago | (#38870593)

I bought one for myself, another as a gift and I'm thinking of buying two for my parents.

It has seamless Skype and SIP integration, so you can type in a number and choose which service to use from a drop-down box, all from the standard interface. Messaging is all integrated, with SMS, Google Talk, Skype, Twitter, Facebook, etc. The UI looks great and is very smooth. The phone runs Linux on a 1 GHz processor, with 1 GB of RAM, so you can do a lot with it, with true multitasking and a lot of features. Application development is really nice, since it's all based on Qt. And you can imagine how neat it is to run Linux on a phone, and use apt-get to install stuff.

I have no problem with Nokia making Windows phones. It's nice OS, even if it's lacking apps (in particular, no Skype and no SIP stack). But cancelling Meego was madness from a business perspective. Elop killed an amazing product, and what is in my opinion the best mobile OS out there, for both consumers and developers.

MS's marketing... (3, Insightful)

tbird81 (946205) | more than 2 years ago | (#38870635)

Not about the phone, I've never heard of it. But in NZ they're advertising the Windows 7 OS. The TV ads are absolutely terrible.

One is a father and son both on laptops, the son gets dad to help with division on his computer(which you'd expect to be easy on a computer [wolframalpha.com] ), and the son goes onto his dad's laptop. He then groovies up his powerpoint presentation with noise, wallpaper, and 3D extruded text and graphs.

Compare this to the elegant and elitist Mac ads. They make you think that one becomes stylish and cool with lots of good-looking friends of all races with perfect smiles. This is proper marketing. Mac is much better at it than MS.

Its not WP7, its Microsofts Apathy (1)

vrythmax (1555425) | more than 2 years ago | (#38870715)

WP7 is the best IMHO phone os. However Microsoft marketing sucks. When was the last time you saw a tv ad for a WP7 phone. Back in the 80's when MCI and Sprint still sold long distance, AT&T had twice the market share, not because they were better, but because they spent 2x the ad dollars that MCI and Sprint did. Microsoft is competing against a comodity and a cache. They can only win by make WP7 a household word and they just refuse to do it. Their lack of marketing dollars signals their lack of confidence in the phone. Besides, Microsoft is going to release iOS 8, I mean Windows 8 for everything from Phone to PC to Tablet to XBox to Ford autos so why would they push the crap out of a phone they're gonna throw away in 12 to 18 months?

Ok, i'll bite... (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38870783)

WHY should Salesmen do *anything* different than Nokia ("go for the buck"), you fucking prick?!

Load More Comments
Slashdot Login

Need an Account?

Forgot your password?