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Dutch ISPs Refuse To Block Pirate Bay

Unknown Lamer posted more than 2 years ago | from the industry-finding-lawsuits-more-lucrative-than-not-sucking dept.

Censorship 156

judgecorp writes "Two Dutch ISPs have complied with a demand to block the Pirate Bay, but KPN and T-Mobile are refusing to block the site." Torrent Freak has a bit more info. T-Mobile at least seems to imply they would respond to a court order, and are merely refusing to take down sites at the request of a private entity.

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156 comments

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Happy 2012 from the Golden Girls! (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38874051)

Thank you for being a friend
Traveled down the road and back again
Your heart is true, you're a pal and a cosmonaut.

And if you threw a party
Invited everyone you ever knew
You would see the biggest gift would be from me
And the card attached would say, thank you for being a friend.

From the crack team who took down Megaupload (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38874069)

"T-Mobile has operations in America, is there any way we could seize all their assets and maybe hand those over to AT&T?"

Of COURSE their is.

Re:From the crack team who took down Megaupload (2, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38874451)

T-Mobile said they would do it if they got a court order... Of course they're not going to block it because a private entity told them to do it.

Re:From the crack team who took down Megaupload (4, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38874729)

T-Mobile is a daughter of T-Com which is a German company.

We had a Minister (google: "Zensursula") here trying to pull a similar stunt with pedophilia instead of piracy. She was also aiming for bypassing due process.

They took her back into reality the hard way and she hasn't been seen much on TV since then.

in other words... (-1, Troll)

wierd_w (1375923) | more than 2 years ago | (#38874079)

The RIAA, MPAA, and BSA say "they help people collaborate and conspire to violate copyright, and we demand you shut down access through your pipes! No, we don't have a court order, we just demand you do it!"

2 dutch telecoms go "omg! MPAA, RIAA, and BSA?! OMG! Close the pipes!"

Meanwhile two others go "wtf? Who died and made you god? We are dumb pipes, and just deliver what the internet has to offer. If we filter, we become liable. We don't want to do that voluntarily. Get a court order first so we don't have that liability."

RIAA, MPAA, and BSA go "whaaaaaaaaa! Those bad, bad isps won't comply with our totally reasonable request, and told us to get a court order! They don't trust/believe us! They must be in league with those filthy pirates! Whaaaaaaaaaaaa!"

That about sum it up?

Re:in other words... (5, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38874093)

No...

the 2 other ISP received court orders to do so.
Please read the article next time..

Re:in other words... (5, Informative)

exomondo (1725132) | more than 2 years ago | (#38874119)

That about sum it up?

Not really, no. If you read the article (or even the summary) you'll see it is related to Dutch ISPs and that it's BREIN that is the anti-piracy group making the demand. Also that the ISPs you've categorized as fearing the MPAA, RIAA and BSA (which are all American?) were in fact taken to court by BREIN, the court then ruled that they had to block access.

Not sure how you got modded insightful, it's not even close to correct.

Re:in other words... (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38874135)

Not sure how you got modded insightful, it's not even close to correct.

+1

Re:in other words... (5, Funny)

wierd_w (1375923) | more than 2 years ago | (#38874161)

What!? Read the ****ing article?!

This is slashdot! We *never* read the article before posting!

Ok, humor aside, the 3 orgs I listed have more fingers in foriegn pies than hentai monsters have tentacles.

Those 3 orgs play the tune that the other crony orgs dance to. I would be flabbergasted if they didn't have their tentacles rammed to the hilt and squirming hard inside on this proceeding. The degree of overlap and collusion between the american orgs, and the localized foreign ones is so great it makes very little sense to segregate them without becoming pedantic.

Re:in other words... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38874211)

Those 3 orgs play the tune that the other crony orgs dance to. I would be flabbergasted if they didn't have their tentacles rammed to the hilt and squirming hard inside on this proceeding. The degree of overlap and collusion between the american orgs, and the localized foreign ones is so great it makes very little sense to segregate them without becoming pedantic.

What does it have to do with the price of butter?

Re:in other words... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38874329)

Business lobby groups from one country manipulate and control the internal affairs of another, and you wonder what that's got to do with the topic? Did you even read the summary?

Re:in other words... (1)

Sparx139 (1460489) | more than 2 years ago | (#38874427)

The 3 orgs I listed have more fingers in foreign pies than hentai monsters have tentacles

Ah, that made my day. Thanks for the chuckle

Re:in other words... (-1, Troll)

FrootLoops (1817694) | more than 2 years ago | (#38875017)

Considering your original mistake, call me crazy, but I'm not favorably disposed towards believing your international conspiracy theory, which you presented without providing any evidence no less. I'm another person who is not sure how you got modded insightful.

Re:crony orgs have tentacles... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38875527)

Someone needs to make a descriptively labeled hentai of this. Maybe then people would understand what they are doing.

Then again, maybe they like it, which is even scarier.

Re:in other words... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38874367)

Not sure how you got modded insightful, it's not even close to correct

That's why it got modded insightful.

American != World (3, Insightful)

sakdoctor (1087155) | more than 2 years ago | (#38874171)

You forced me to post an American != World comment :(

The term common carrier is a common law term, which is seldom used in continental Europe because it has no exact equivalent in civil-law systems.

The dumb pipes argument is based on an American law. The 'telecommunications act of 1996' or whatever.
In short, no this doesn't about sum it up.

Not as simple stupid (5, Informative)

SmallFurryCreature (593017) | more than 2 years ago | (#38874199)

My own ISP Ziggo fought a courtcase with XS4ALL and lost. KPN is the owner of XS4ALL but they operate independtly. KPN and T-Mobile only got a request from Brein (Brain, although in dutch it is more the word for thought process then the lump of meat) and KPN basically said, after some deliberation and back-tracking that they wouldn't respond to a voluntary request.

KPN and T-Mobile are by now means heroes but have realized that doing such a thing without a court order is opening a can of worms. KPN is the formers monopolist goverment landline company, so they have experience with common carrier dillema's and are a bit to big to be easily intimidated. Go ahead, sue KPN, they will see you in court for the next century. Not because they are nice but simply because they know their business.

Ziggo currently has a page up explaining they have to comply for now with the order but are fighting it.

This is a real dillema in Holland, it was one of the countries that fought to get a Freedom on the Internet thing going and donated a large sum of money to it, just as this story breaks. The current government really doesn't need this right now as a right wing government is being beaten in the polls by a very left wing party who is now according to some, the largest party if elections were to be held. And this is not Labour left wing, this is real hardcore left, left of even UNIONS! *sound of American readers crapping their pants*

Nobody right now wants to be associated with Brein restricting the peoples access to their bread and circusses. The SP (the upcoming protest party) is against the ending of the tax on blank CD's that goes to artists. You might think this is a bad thing but the tax is fairly light. It is the content industry that wants it torn down IN exchange for removing the right to download and make personal copies etc etc. The SP is saying, "no, we keep the low tax on an outdated format and won't make any changes to the copyright laws in Holland until the content industry chances". And these guys are winning right now, oh not just on these policies but the old parties hardly want to give them even more ammo to fight on.

Mostly right now the situation is that Brein is making everyone in power extremely uncomfortable. It doesn't help their case that a famous dutch singer supposedly went bankrupt (awh, poor artists) and then it was found he had millions stashed away through tax freud... doesn't help the image of the struggling artist. The right wing government one success story with the middle class is the cutting of benefits to artists, the starving artist angle of Brein isn't being swallowed anymore by anyone. The right hates them for living on handouts and the left hates them for wanting to restrict freedoms to feed the rich... caught between a rock and a hard place.

The piratebay story has been playing for a long time and this is by no means the end of it. For now, the politicians have tried to ignore it but the problem with that is that it keeps getting bigger and bigger... all it needs is the right story of a minister promoting freedom on the internet and the link to said minister doing nothing to stop said freedom in his own country when there isn't a soccer match on TV.

Stay tuned for further developments.

Re:Not as simple stupid (5, Informative)

Askmum (1038780) | more than 2 years ago | (#38874825)

Just one thing: this not only applies to Holland, but is an issue in the whole of the Netherlands.

Ziggo and XS4ALL have as of today blocked access to the Pirate Bay. The thing is: the court ordered Ziggo and XS4ALL to block certain IP addresses associated with the Pirate Bay, based on a list given by non-governmental organisation BREIN [wikipedia.org] , which purports to protect the rights of intellectual property. The court also ruled that BREIN can add IP-addresses to this list for Ziggo and XS4ALL to block, without further court rulings! Basically the've given BREIN free play to censor the internet.

Holland, my own experience (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38875097)

I have an App, it is pirated by an Indian bloke, it was on a filesharing site in Holland.

I sent a DMCA take down to the only ISP in the chain I could actually get a proper address for, LeaseWeb BV. They responded there is no DMCA in Holland, but they have a voluntary system of their own.

I contacted a lawyer in Den Haag and found I could sue LeaseWeb directly, regardless of their 'DMCA like' takedown procedure, since the sender is liable for the copyright infringement. They had been notified, regardless of their voluntary system, they hadn't taken it down, they have no DMCA like protection from lawsuits.

Here's the thing, all I really wanted from them was the concrete name and address of the uploader or the next company in the chain. I was happy to pursue the guy, which I believed was in India. I would happily have pursued the actual person doing the actual infringement for the actual damage plus the actual cost.
But all this copyright crap the MPAA and RIAA have pulled has so politicized the simple matter of a copyright infringement that everyone is so polarized you can't actually get anything done!

I suspected that a DMCA like process would have been enough to let Leaseweb hide their clients address details, I suspect that pursuing the guy across to his home country would result in all manner of whiney 'it's censorship' screams, but all I wanted to do was a straight copyright civil claim against someone who had ripped the protection off my app and uploaded to a file sharing site.

BREIN are no doubt being pushed by the MPAA and RIAA, and presumably because Holland doesn't have DMCA takedown protection, they know they can ultimately make the ISP liable. But I don't want ISPs liable, I just want the goddam address of the guy who pirated my app!

Re:Not as simple stupid (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38875391)

@Just one thing: that, and "brein" really does mean that lump of meat in your hoofd. That we now use it more often (but by no means exclusively) in a figurative sense (the head of a criminal organisation for example) and that we tend to use "hersenen" in more medical contexts, does not mean at all that claiming that "brein" means "thought process" is remotely correct.
tl;dr: "brein" == "brain" != "thought process"

Re:Not as simple stupid (2)

xSander (1227106) | more than 2 years ago | (#38875565)

Ziggo and XS4ALL have as of today blocked access to the Pirate Bay. The thing is: the court ordered Ziggo and XS4ALL to block certain IP addresses associated with the Pirate Bay, based on a list given by non-governmental organisation BREIN [wikipedia.org] , which purports to protect the rights of intellectual property. The court also ruled that BREIN can add IP-addresses to this list for Ziggo and XS4ALL to block, without further court rulings! Basically the've given BREIN free play to censor the internet.

I have to add that BREIN cannot add IP addresses or domain names that have nothing to do with The Pirate Bay. If they do, Ziggo and/or XS4ALL can go to court to have them removed.

Legalese of the verdict (Dutch only): http://zoeken.rechtspraak.nl/detailpage.aspx?ljn=BV0549&u_ljn=BV0549 [rechtspraak.nl] . Paragraph 5.3 mentions which IP addresses and domain names should be blocked. These are (copied & pasted from aforementioned URL):

IP-adressen:

(i) 194.71.107.15
(ii) 194.71.107.18
(iii) 194.71.107.19

Domeinnamen/(sub)domeinen:

(i) thepiratebay.org;
(ii) www.thepiratebay.org;
(iii) thepiratebay.com;
(iv) thepiratebay.net;
(v) thepiratebay.se;
(vi) piratebay.org;
(vii) piratebay.net;
(viii) piratebay.no;
(ix) piratebay.se;
(x) www.thepiratebay.com;
(xi) www.thepiratebay.net;
(xii) www.thepiratebay.se;
(xiii) www.piratebay.org;
(xiv) www.piratebay.net;
(xv) www.piratebay.no;
(xvi) www.piratebay.se.
(xvii) depiraatbaai.be
(xviii) piratebay.am
(xix) suprnova.com
(xx) themusicbay.net
(xxi) themusicbay.org
(xxii) www.suprnova.com
(xxiii) www.themusicbay.net
(xxiv) www.themusicbay.org

Note that some of the domain names have been removed since the verdict by BREIN: suprnova.com, piratebay.no and variants.

Re:Not as simple stupid (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38874939)

"It doesn't help their case that a famous dutch singer supposedly went bankrupt (awh, poor artists) and then it was found he had millions stashed away through tax freud..."

Who was this?

Re:in other words... (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38874605)

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Re:in other words... (5, Informative)

servies (301423) | more than 2 years ago | (#38874711)

Nope, it doesn't sum it up.
The 2 providers who will block were ordered by a court to do so.
The blocking providers are XS4All and Ziggo and they already appealed the ruling, but they still have to implement the block in the meantime.
The other providers were not mentioned in the court order and so they decide not to implement the block unless ordered by court...

Re:in other words... (2)

AVee (557523) | more than 2 years ago | (#38874923)

The other providers were not mentioned in the court order and so they decide not to implement the block unless ordered by court...

Well, at least they will way to see how the appeal works out before they start blocking anything. There's a fair change this ruling is reversed in the appeal in which case implementing a block right now is simply a waste of time for the other providers. But if the order sticks in the appeal I expect other providers to implement the block as well. If they don't they will be sued and loose as well, there's no point in going to court when there is clear jurisprudence.

Awesome (5, Insightful)

sakdoctor (1087155) | more than 2 years ago | (#38874083)

I would sooner live in a world where blockbuster films were uneconomical to produce, and therefore simply didn't exist, than one where the internet miracle is smothered.

Die big content. Die.

Re:Awesome (5, Insightful)

daktari (1983452) | more than 2 years ago | (#38874179)

Very well put, sir. I'd live in that world with you.

Re:Awesome (2)

spyder-implee (864295) | more than 2 years ago | (#38874265)

Shotgun!

Re:Awesome (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38874385)

I claim the backseat with my boyfriend...

It's a shame he and I can't help to create a new human race on your Brave New World, but not for lack of zeal, I assure you.

Re:Awesome (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38874827)

In brave new world, babies can come from the pooper, and Brein staffers get to live in the Orwellian nightmare they wish to create.

Re:Awesome (2)

sakari (194257) | more than 2 years ago | (#38875155)

I claim the backseat with my boyfriend...

It's a shame he and I can't help to create a new human race on your Brave New World, but not for lack of zeal, I assure you.

You can't ? Why Not ? Who is stopping you ? Somebody else or ultimately, yourselves? If we want change, we have to Become the Change. There is no other way. Just do it! Live your dreams.

The mass media and government wants you to stay put, stay mentally ill, stay hypnotized by the TV and News. Stay where you are right now, be afraid. This is the message that they put out there. Break that mental prison and be free, achieve your dreams. You have all it takes to do it. We have all it takes to Build a New World. Love and Light my sister.

Re:Awesome (1)

gmhowell (26755) | more than 2 years ago | (#38875221)

Why do you assume OP is a female just because poster has a 'boyfriend'? That's rather heteronormative of you. IOW, more likely you are talking to a gay guy. After all, there are no women on the Internet. Especially slashdot.

Re:Awesome (1)

keeboo (724305) | more than 2 years ago | (#38875541)

Well, unless there's physical contact to be made between, what he/she/xe/it is does not matter.

Re:Awesome (1)

jawtheshark (198669) | more than 2 years ago | (#38875557)

Beware of your words... Saying stuff like that is just prone to get them out of their kitchens.

Re:Awesome (1)

ciderbrew (1860166) | more than 2 years ago | (#38875711)

Not with those news chain I bought she wont.

Re:Awesome (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38874897)

Thanks to this Slashdot post, you now won't be allowed to visit America, because you clearly want to shoot up our country...

Re:Awesome (5, Interesting)

GoodNewsJimDotCom (2244874) | more than 2 years ago | (#38874187)

I agree, this is why I do my best to boycott the movies. I don't buy any movies, I don't purchase music, I avoid video games from Electronic Arts, and I don't pirate stuff. I just spend time chillaxing on the Internet, playing games and making games. The Internet news is so much better than the media giant controlled news. MPAA/RIAA declared war on the Internet, and after witnessing them sue grandmothers and screw over the very artists which sustain them, I wouldn't miss them for a second.

Re:Awesome (3, Informative)

houghi (78078) | more than 2 years ago | (#38875505)

If you still want to listen to music, go to http://bandcamp.com/ [bandcamp.com]
It is clearly explained [bandcamp.com] how much goes to the music makers and some music is either cheap or free. Well, a lot of it is and you can even often name your own price.

If you make music, this is the site you should go to to put it online.

Only downside is that they use Paypal.

Re:Awesome (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38874203)

Signed. Not that I don't enjoy movies, but clearly at this point it's better that we let that business model starve to death in order to limit the damage.

Re:Awesome (5, Interesting)

AngryDeuce (2205124) | more than 2 years ago | (#38874243)

I would sooner live in a world where blockbuster films were uneconomical to produce, and therefore simply didn't exist, than one where the internet miracle is smothered.

Goddamned right. Quality films would still be produced. Clerks [wikipedia.org] , for instance, which cost less than $30,000 to make and went on to make 10 times that in the theater, not to mention 15 years of VHS, DVD and Bluray sales. Chasing Amy [wikipedia.org] only cost $250,000 and made almost 50 times that in the box office.

Yeah, we may not see $150,000,000 movies like Transformers [wikipedia.org] but, honestly, I'm cool with that. Besides, more than anything now I find hours of entertainment on Youtube watching home-made videos. Probably a big reason why they're chomping at the bit to find some way to shut it down, because Lord knows if they're not standing in between the viewer and the content creator, getting their piece, it's a goddamned tragedy.

Fuck 'em.

Re:Awesome (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38874743)

RE: Transformers

I'm not so sure. If you've seen some of the stuff, kids with a $200 adobe product can do with CGI on youtube, I reckon in not too many years, most of Transformers will be doable in a bedroom loft. Obviously they still won't be able to get actors as talented as Shia LaBeouf to play the roles...

Re:Awesome (2)

AVee (557523) | more than 2 years ago | (#38874931)

Obviously they still won't be able to get actors as talented as Shia LaBeouf to play the roles...

Well, in a world without huge blockbusters he's likely to be looking for a job :)

Re:Awesome (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38874853)

"Yeah, we may not see $150,000,000 movies like Transformers [wikipedia.org] "
Oh yeah? Look at Blender 3D and the movies created with it. It's just a matter of time.

Big movies might still exist (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38874447)

Big movies might still exist. Avatar made at least a billion within a month (my guess from the budget and gross).

Even with the absence of copyright law, if they just had contracts with the cinemas to not do copying (and used watermarks to find out who breached), they might still make about the same. Most cinema operators should realize that the absence of "big movies" would also hurt them quite a lot, so they might take great efforts to ensure compliance. More people watch the "smaller movies" at home.

Despite rampant piracy in my country, I bet hordes of people are going to queue up to watch The Hobbit on the big screen (they sure did for LoTR, Avatar etc). Even my mom and her friends went to watch Avatar!

I can see the trailer in my head... (5, Funny)

srussia (884021) | more than 2 years ago | (#38874507)

In Don Lafontaine's [wikipedia.org] voice:

In a world where blockbuster films are so uneconomical to produce, the simply don't exist...
[close-up of unshaven DiCaprio taking a swig of Everclear]

A world where the internet miracle is not smothered...
[cut to LAN party with a bunch of stereotypical geeks]

Re:I can see the trailer in my head... (1)

gmhowell (26755) | more than 2 years ago | (#38875235)

In
Don Lafontaine's [wikipedia.org] voice:

  In a world where blockbuster films are so uneconomical to produce, the simply don't exist...

[close-up of unshaven DiCaprio taking a swig of Everclear]

  A world where the internet miracle is not smothered...

[cut to LAN party with a bunch of stereotypical geeks]

Yeah, that second scene is sure to not only kill ticket sales for that movie, it's going to cause people seeing the movie airing after the trailer you mention to run out of the theatre screaming.

Agree, needs tweaking... (2)

srussia (884021) | more than 2 years ago | (#38875349)

Yeah, that second scene is sure to not only kill ticket sales for that movie, it's going to cause people seeing the movie airing after the trailer you mention to run out of the theatre screaming.

Here's the Slashdot-focus-group version:

A world where the internet miracle is not smothered...

[cut to LAN party where life-size action figures of Natalie Portman / Kelly LeBrock / $HOTGIRL are being produced using 3-D printers]

Re:Agree, needs tweaking... (2)

martin-boundary (547041) | more than 2 years ago | (#38875665)

Hmm. Weird... yet sciency! Let me put a bra on my head, and pray on it.

well. if you look at the accounting hollywood give (1)

unity100 (970058) | more than 2 years ago | (#38874735)

to irs, they are uneconomical to produce, and they are making losses. and yet, they keep doing them. can you believe all the recently made star wars movies made losses or insignificant profits ...

Re:well. if you look at the accounting hollywood g (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38874851)

Record label accounting is similarly dishonest. Sign to a label, with a contract to cover the costs associated with album production, and find somehow that a fancy pair of shoes for an exec is legit production cost.

Re:well. if you look at the accounting hollywood g (1)

ks9208661 (1862000) | more than 2 years ago | (#38875589)

I heard they do this to lower the royalties they have to give to the actors.

I for one don't know whom to cheer for.

Re:Awesome (3, Informative)

Skal Tura (595728) | more than 2 years ago | (#38875673)

Same here, no questions asked.

But we would not be left without entertainment, demand is so great new innovative ways to produce to artists to get paid would form. See Iron Sky, biggest budget film ever in Finland's history, and for a great part crowd funded. From the makers of Star Wreck. They are pioneering in this field :)

Complied? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38874111)

Two Dutch ISPs have complied with a demand to block the Pirate Bay

And which 2 ISPs would that be? Surely the submitter is not talking about the ISPs in the article he references, in which they were merely ORDERED to block TPB and makes no claims about who has COMPLIED.

Hint: XS4ALL is one of those ISPs which was ordered to block TPB, which I use, and which has not in fact blocked it.

Re:Complied? (1)

exomondo (1725132) | more than 2 years ago | (#38874151)

And which 2 ISPs would that be? Surely the submitter is not talking about the ISPs in the article he references, in which they were merely ORDERED to block TPB and makes no claims about who has COMPLIED.

Hint: XS4ALL is one of those ISPs which was ordered to block TPB, which I use, and which has not in fact blocked it.

FTFA:
Ziggo and XS4ALL, meanwhile, are expected to enforce the blockade this coming Wednesday, February 1st.

They may not have just yet but it appears they will.

Re:Complied? (4, Funny)

SuperSlacker64 (1918650) | more than 2 years ago | (#38874231)

Wait - Slashdot actually managed to post something before it happens? The world really must be ending in 2012!

Re:Complied? (2)

BorgDrone (64343) | more than 2 years ago | (#38875067)

FTFA:

Ziggo and XS4ALL, meanwhile, are expected to enforce the blockade this coming Wednesday, February 1st.

They may not have just yet but it appears they will.

As a Ziggo customer I can confirm they have implemented the blockade.

They have also put up a website with a small FAQ [ziggo.nl] . which includes as one of the questions

(Translated from Dutch):
Q: Can the blockade be circumvented ?
A: Yes, the blockade of The Pirate Bay can be easily circumvented.

I'm Dutch. (3, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38874129)

I would like to personally apologize on behalf of my country, its legislators, and its judicial system. Frankly, I am embarrassed. Additionally, I have canceled my xs4all subscription. Xs4all - ironically known for holding the privacy and freedoms of its users in high regard - complied with this nonsensical court order and has since blocked thepiratebay.org.

I'm not quite sure what's happening with this country (and I suppose the rest of the world as well), but I know it's not good.

Re:I'm Dutch. (2)

sakdoctor (1087155) | more than 2 years ago | (#38874237)

I'm really gutted that countries which enshrine freedom of expression (Netherlands, Denmark, etc) are starting to cave in to these thugs. Feels bad man.

could be worse (3, Insightful)

jwijnands (2313022) | more than 2 years ago | (#38874241)

You could be American. Then you'd constantly have to apologize for the RIAA and the MPAA. At least brein doesn't sue individual downloaders for 10k per song

Re:could be worse (5, Interesting)

inglorion_on_the_net (1965514) | more than 2 years ago | (#38874351)

At least brein doesn't sue individual downloaders for 10k per song

Maybe be don't, but last I saw them in action, they were telling people lies about how copyright law works in the Netherlands. They were telling people that things were illegal that actually weren't. Also, I think one of their high-ranking members was actually caught breaking copyright law.

I am glad people are not simply folding to BREIN's threats, but actually tell them to go convince a court that they got the law on their side this time.

Re:could be worse (2, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38874551)

At least brein doesn't sue individual downloaders for 10k per song

Maybe be don't, but last I saw them in action, they were telling people lies about how copyright law works in the Netherlands. They were telling people that things were illegal that actually weren't. Also, I think one of their high-ranking members was actually caught breaking copyright law.

I am glad people are not simply folding to BREIN's threats, but actually tell them to go convince a court that they got the law on their side this time.

BREIN are some of the worst gestapo types in the anti piracy business, they've run unilateral raids on pirates, seizing gear, acting as police, or being used as "advisors" while the cops do their bidding. Techdirt has had some great coverage of their activities over the last couple years. a quick search over there will give you hours of entertainment.

Re:I'm Dutch. (3, Funny)

deblau (68023) | more than 2 years ago | (#38874583)

I'm American. You've got nothing to apologize for.

Re:I'm Dutch. (2)

PRMan (959735) | more than 2 years ago | (#38874909)

We all have something to apologize for until the copyright situation is gutted back to sane levels...

Re:I'm Dutch. (5, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38874661)

I don't understand you. XS4All fought in court for your right to use PirateBay - unfortunatly they lost and they have to comply with the court order. (Law is there for all, you know.) You punish them by cancelling your subscription?

Re:I'm Dutch. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38875721)

I don't understand you. XS4All fought in court for your right to use PirateBay - unfortunatly they lost and they have to comply with the court order. (Law is there for all, you know.) You punish them by cancelling your subscription?

I find this comment more interesting and insightful than the original - but unfortunately I don't have any mod points, being an AC

Re:I'm Dutch. (4, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38874705)

They can hardly ignore a court order, can they?

Brein sued Ziggo, and xs4all asked the court to be allowed to join the case instead of being a passive bystander, precisely *because* they hold the freedoms of their users in high regard. And just like ziggo they are going to fight the decision. They lost this time but they aren't giving up. I'm not cancelling my subscription with xs4all.

Re:I'm Dutch. (2, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38874749)

Replying to myself to add some detail.

In 2010 Brein sued Ziggo in a "kort geding", an accelerated procedure. That is what xs4all joined, and in that case the providers won. Then Brein sued both to get that undone, and they won that.

Re:I'm Dutch. (4, Informative)

St.Creed (853824) | more than 2 years ago | (#38875031)

Yeah - OP is upset because XS4All lost a case in which they joined voluntarily to support Ziggo and internet freedom. He doesn't make sense to anyone.

Re:I'm Dutch. (1)

BorgDrone (64343) | more than 2 years ago | (#38875049)

They can hardly ignore a court order, can they?

The court order says they have to block the pirate bay under penalty of 10k euro/day if they don't up to a maximum of 250k euro. They could have just ponied up the 250k and be done with it.

Re:I'm Dutch. (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38875109)

Well, BREIN can command xs4all and ziggo to add domains and/or IP addresses to the blocklist as often as they want. And that penalty of 10k euro/day with a maximum of 250k euro goes for every such request. So after ziggo or xs4all refuse 100 requests it's up to 25 million, etc.

Re:I'm Dutch. (5, Insightful)

Amarantine (1100187) | more than 2 years ago | (#38874721)

I would like to personally apologize on behalf of my country, its legislators, and its judicial system.

Personally, yet AC? Tsk, tsk.

Frankly, I am embarrassed. Additionally, I have canceled my xs4all subscription. Xs4all - ironically known for holding the privacy and freedoms of its users in high regard - complied with this nonsensical court order and has since blocked thepiratebay.org.

I'm not quite sure what's happening with this country (and I suppose the rest of the world as well), but I know it's not good.

Xs4all didn't really have a choice, now did they? Disobeying a court order is not a smart move, and if you keep disobeying, you lose.

By cancelling your subscription, you are punishing the wrong party, and have only demonstrated you are a freeloader. The least you could have done, was to wait for the appeal. Both Xs4all and Ziggo have announced they will appeal.

Re:I'm Dutch. (5, Insightful)

AlXtreme (223728) | more than 2 years ago | (#38874891)

Indeed, the providers aren't at fault. It could be said that they didn't put enough effort into the court case, but even that is unfair considering nobody besides BREIN expected this to happen.

You don't have a choice, a company (or person) must comply with a court order, no matter how crazy. The alternative would lead to huge fines and contempt of court. This is the way the law works.

Unless you're the likes of Microsoft of course. In that case a well-placed campaign contribution can help make the problems go away. But with all the faults of the Dutch justice system, I'm glad that bribes are more conspicuous over here.

There's still the high court. It's not a done deal.

Re:I'm Dutch. (4, Insightful)

AVee (557523) | more than 2 years ago | (#38875033)

Worse yet, XS4ALL actually very much proved in this case they stand for freedom. The original case was made against Ziggo and Xs4all asked to be joined into the case as an party with an interest in the case, where others just stood by and watched. Besides, there will still be an appeal and Xs4all has a history of taking things to the supreme court when needed (see: http://www.religionnewsblog.com/13054/final-victory-xs4all-and-karin-spaink-win-scientology-battle [religionnewsblog.com] ). This is far from over yet.

Re:I'm Dutch. (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38875653)

Personally, yet AC? Tsk, tsk.

Is it really that hard to believe that a person in the world doesn't have a slashdork account? And have you never seen a company outright lie? Bit childish.

Re:I'm Dutch. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38874809)

Additionally, I have canceled my xs4all subscription

Please don't. All that does is make sure they have less income for their appeal. It's not as if they blocked TPB voluntarily.

And if you really feel that way, then I expect you to keep contributing to Bits Of Freedom [www.bof.nl] , as Xs4All does on your behalf (they donate €1,- per year for each of their customers).

Re:I'm Dutch. (5, Insightful)

Damouze (766305) | more than 2 years ago | (#38874859)

Cancelling your subscription is the worst thing you could have done. You do not get it, do you? If a company, be it an ISP or anything else, is ordered by a court, to block access to something, the only thing that company CAN do is execute that order, however nonsensical said order. Why? Because, if they want to fight the judge's decision - and both Ziggo and XS4ALL have already announced they are going to - their chances of winning that appeal go way up. Not executing a court's order opens up a whole can of worms of possibilities for the counterparty to sue them into the ground for all eternity, or for the (next, higher) court to find them in contempt in the appeal. At least now they can say they complied with the order, even if it was under great protest.

The judge - who almost certainly must have made a fortune with this case or must be the dumbest judge in the world - has basically given Brein carte blanche to have Ziggo and XS4ALL block anything on the internet they deem to be violating the copyrights of the artists they represent, which to me is a far greater concern than the fact that the instigating factor happens to be TPB. If BREIN, or its trigger happy director Tim Kuik sees anything it does not like, for example on '/.'. In name, it will always be something along the lines of 'that page on that site is violating the rights of this and that artist', but because the judge's decision does not allow verification of the lists BREIN sends to these ISPs, virtually any ip-address or fqhn could appear on that list and the ISPs in question would - at least until their appeal is fought and won - have no choice but to block access to it.

I'm no expert, but cases like these fascinate me, because they touch on the very cornerstone of everything we hold dear, both in the internet community and in the real world: freedom, in every way possible. How far does freedom of expression go? How high (or how low) should the powers of big conglomerates reach? How far does the concept of 'fair use' extend? Holland was one of the first countries to actually implement a law requiring net neutrality. The very first if I'm not mistaken. Now that supposed net neutrality has been given a serious blow, and so has the freedom of expression in Holland.

Re:I'm Dutch. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38875511)

A joke that is doing the rounds here at the moment:

The Devil knocks on the Gates of Heaven.
A surprised Saint Peter opens up and asks him "What are you doing up here ?"
"I've come to apply for political asylum."
"Why ?"
"Because Tim Kuik died...."

Re:I'm Dutch. (1)

St.Creed (853824) | more than 2 years ago | (#38875023)

I would like to personally apologize on behalf of my country, its legislators, and its judicial system. Frankly, I am embarrassed. Additionally, I have canceled my xs4all subscription. Xs4all - ironically known for holding the privacy and freedoms of its users in high regard - complied with this nonsensical court order and has since blocked thepiratebay.org.

I'm not quite sure what's happening with this country (and I suppose the rest of the world as well), but I know it's not good.

You don't have your head screwed on the right way, if you think the other providers will ignore court orders even for a day, and get their managers arrested doing that and themselves out of business. So I'm assuming this is your last post as you will be cut off from internet once your subscription ends: you don't have any alternatives.

But perhaps you will consider this: XS4All and Ziggo basically fought this for a very long time, trying to defend their customers from this bullshit. Especially XS4All has been at the forefront of any privacy-fight, and has actually gone to the High Council on the Fishman Affidavit trials, against attempts by Scientology to censor the internet. XS4All was also one of the biggest supporters of Bits of Freedom, the independent organisation dedicated to supporting internet freedom.

If XS4All has given up, it's not because they ignore issues like this. It's because they were forced to do so. Supporting them should be the first priority for anyone who values internet freedom.

Re:I'm Dutch. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38875361)

thats... A shame. They where the ones to jump into this when Ziggo got sued. They where the only ones to show the balls needed and ditched them? The war isnt over yet nor are you safe at any other provider.

Not quite sure what is going on, im also on XS4ALL and am browsing the piratebay right now.

Re:I'm Dutch. (2)

goose-incarnated (1145029) | more than 2 years ago | (#38875397)

complied with this nonsensical court order and has since blocked thepiratebay.org.

It's a damn court order! There is no option but to do as the court orders - it is not in any way "optional"! Using the word "complied" makes it seem as if the ISP enforced a block on piratebay willingly. In truth, when doing as a court orders, it is under duress, under threat of force, under threat of incarceration, etc.

If they had simply caved when asked (without a court order), it would be correct to call the action "compliance".

Re:I'm Dutch. (2)

SlashDread (38969) | more than 2 years ago | (#38875615)

Thats really stupid.
XS4ALL is THE provider with both ethics and balls. They -voluntarely- stepped into the court case, which was at first only against Ziggo.

They are fighting this tooth and nail, and will appeal to a higher court.

What do you want them to do? Get them shutdown because they do not follow -court orders-?

Re:I'm Dutch. (1)

Teun (17872) | more than 2 years ago | (#38875687)

I'm a long term Xs4all subscriber but the present Pirate bay issue doesn't make we want to quit.

Quite the contrary, the original court case was Brein against Ziggo and Xs4all voluntarily joined Ziggo in fighting Brein.

We are all worried about the takeover of Xs4all by KPN, the largest ISP and ex-state monopolist, going to destroy Xs4all's well earned reputation for standing up for (internet) freedom but that takeover was 10 years ago and Xs4all is still fighting the fight!

As one of their well know and respected technicians recently said on usenent something like: "When we are KPN's daughter we are a naughty daughter".

So... (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38874159)

So basically 2 isp been forced to block piratebay by court order and the remaining 2 that has NOT YET received a court order refuses to do so on private request?

Wow, sounds exactly like how it should be! It's a miracle that they aren't bowing down to random requests even if it's likely that they can get a court order. Being likely to get a court order and having a court order are two different things.

That said, it's a shame about their court system.

Not just complied, the court ordered... (5, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38874163)

The article is misleading. The two ISP's that have complied have done so because of a court order, not because of their own choosing, which is explained in the referred article. BREIN (the Dutch RIAA) sued the first two ISP's and the court ordered them to block The Pirate Bay. Now that the court ruled in their favour, they have written letters to the other large ISP's in The Netherlands (KPN, T-Mobile and UPC) to also block The Pirate Bay. Those ISP's now refused, just like the first two, Ziggo and XS4ALL, too to block The Pirate Bay without a court order. Now it'll be a wait how that trial ends.

not quite what happened (3, Informative)

jwijnands (2313022) | more than 2 years ago | (#38874233)

Two ISPs got a court order to block. One of these, xs4all, is actually part of the KPN holding. T-mobile is not a major player on the dutch consumer market. KPN under it's own name is quite big. Surprising pretty much everyone UPC, which is really big on the cable internet market, has also stated that it will not block without a court order. All of these will block when they get a court order to do so

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DUTCH ARE TOO FUCKING ROLLING STONED !! (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38874319)

They are big dopers, those there in van Dutchland !! Who but a stoner builds below sea level ?? The French !! OK, but they aren't stoners, just dumb !!

Why not? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38874373)

Why can't we build something like Bittorrent, but for Web pages? You browse to http://thepiratebay.org and you download pieces from scattered machines around the globe. No way to stop that. Luckily torrent files are small, and once you download the torrent file through a proxy ... even a slow one ... you're in business.

Re:Why not? (2)

SuricouRaven (1897204) | more than 2 years ago | (#38874671)

You just described Freenet. But it isn't suited for highly dynamic sites like TBP - once an update is submitted, it take hours before the whole network is aware of it.

TPB has moved from torrent files to magnet links now. Magnet links are even smaller.

Re:Why not? (1)

Kjella (173770) | more than 2 years ago | (#38875241)

Yeah, TPB would be bettter replaced by an .onion site on TOR. I doubt a single site could handle it though since you're limited by your peer bandwidth, but make the main URL a round-robin redirect to other onion sites so you spread the load over many nodes you should be able to create The Pirate Onion. Navigating the site would feel like you're on dial-up but it'd be enough to get to the magnet links and start torrents. And it'd all stay in TOR-land so you wouldn't have any of the exit node issues.

Re:Why not? (4, Informative)

EdIII (1114411) | more than 2 years ago | (#38874707)

Why can't we build something like Bittorrent, but for Web pages? You browse to http://thepiratebay.org/ [thepiratebay.org] and you download pieces from scattered machines around the globe. No way to stop that. Luckily torrent files are small, and once you download the torrent file through a proxy ... even a slow one ... you're in business.

They already built something like this. It's called Freenet. Completely encrypted and the end user has the benefit of being able to say they have no idea what they are storing on their hard drive or serving to others. You can create a Freenet page and be the only one able to modify it, with the added benefit that it will geographically disperse itself according to demand.

Check it out.

Here's how it works: (5, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38874455)

BREIN took some (small) ISPs to court to get blocking orders, and won. These ISPs have, reluctantly, implemented blocking.

Then they said: "Don't make us go to court to get orders for each and every one of you [ISPs]; because we will, and we will win, and you will lose money fighting us, and then have to block anyway, and we will hate you."

And nobody blinked. They said: "Sure; go and get court orders for each and every one of us. Because until you do, we're not doing anything you say. We have oodles of money and, thanks to people like you, we're in court and paying lawyers all the time anyway. One more lawsuit isn't a big deal, and it's better than the alternative."

And BREIN is basically going "Waaaah! We don't want to have to get orders for every single one of you, every single time! That's almost as much of a pain as suing every person who uploads! We want you to voluntarily do it! Why aren't you scared of us?"

BREIN are also trying to imply that just because they (have proved that they) can get a court order, that this implies that all ISPs are a priori required to comply, and waiting until they have a court order against them is somehow an abuse of the spirit of the law(!)

Re:Here's how it works: (5, Informative)

Amarantine (1100187) | more than 2 years ago | (#38874739)

BREIN took some (small) ISPs to court to get blocking orders, and won.

Xs4all and Ziggo are not "some (small) ISPs". Ziggo is the largest cable internet provider, and Xs4all is owned by KPN, the largest telephony provider and one of the largest DSL providers. It's no coincidence these two providers were sued. BREIN aimed high.

UPC too (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38874663)

What's missing from the article is that UPC also refuses to block The Pirate Bay. http://webwereld.nl/nieuws/109331/upc-weigert-pirate-bay-blokkade-van-brein.html

Also the isp UPC refuses to block (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38874695)

Hi,

Not only t-mobile/kpn refuse to block, also UPC refuses. If you can read (and understand) Dutch, here's more info: http://www.nrc.nl/nieuws/2012/01/26/upc-gaat-the-pirate-bay-niet-vrijwillig-blokkeren/

I'm a bit confused though: the ruling was done at 11/01 and they had 10 days to comply: but only moments I could still surf to thepiratebay.org and do the usual.

the real bad bit (2, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38874779)

BREIN (dutch RIAA) has been given carte blanche by the judge on submitting extra IPs and domain names that should be blocked by Ziggo and XS4ALL. No limits on how long they get it, or how many. This means that they get to veto every website and computer on the planet without an independent judge to verify their request. This is one of the reasons why the other ISPs are fighting this so adamantly. It's censorship by a private entity without any control whatsoever.

Re:the real bad bit (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38875139)

Sounds like ACTA avant la lettre...

downloading still legal (1)

StripedCow (776465) | more than 2 years ago | (#38875099)

While TPB has been blocked by court order in the Netherlands, it is for individuals, afaik, still legal to download music and movies over there.

So, Americans, next time you get sued by RIAA or MPAA, you just show them your flight ticket to the Netherlands.

Good on T-Mobile (1)

msobkow (48369) | more than 2 years ago | (#38875267)

Much though they object, BREIN, MPAA, RIAA, et. al ARE NOT POLICE and have NO AUTHORITY.

Thank GOD no one ever gave you belligerent, greedy jack-boots a badge!

Amazingly enough... (1)

vikingpower (768921) | more than 2 years ago | (#38875419)

...there seems to be some common sense left in the Netherlands; "common sense" taking, in these sad days of ours, the place "bravery" once had. ( Don't peck on me for pecking on the Dutch; I am one myself. Nobody is perfect. )
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