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The IT Certs That No Longer Pay Extra

samzenpus posted more than 2 years ago | from the changing-values dept.

The Almighty Buck 267

snydeq writes "Overall employment in tech is improving, but the certs you could once count on for a job or extra pay are losing their value, InfoWorld reports. 'Businesses no longer value what are increasingly considered standard skills, and instead are putting their money both into a new set of emerging specialties and into hybrid technology/business roles.'"

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Hybrid Programmer-BusinessAnalyst Roles (5, Insightful)

sanman2 (928866) | more than 2 years ago | (#38911357)

I think that the ability to succeed in a hybridized programmer-businessanalyst role depends on how complex the business and its processes are, as well as how complex its IT platforms are. If you're a more simpler company with simpler business processes and simpler platforms, then it's doable. But if you're in a complicated business environment with complex IT infrastructure, then creating these hybridized roles is asking for trouble.

Re:Hybrid Programmer-BusinessAnalyst Roles (5, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38911393)

But a hybridized role offers the possibility of leveraging the perspectives of both, creating synergistic opportunities resulting from such unique dual-paradigm exposure.

Re:Hybrid Programmer-BusinessAnalyst Roles (4, Insightful)

MightyMartian (840721) | more than 2 years ago | (#38911409)

Just like how business graduates leveraged fast talking with dick wagging! And look at those guys. They get million dollar bonuses while the companies they pilot crashland into the ground and investors feel somewhere between gang-raped and immolated.

Re:Hybrid Programmer-BusinessAnalyst Roles (5, Informative)

c0lo (1497653) | more than 2 years ago | (#38911525)

Just like how business graduates leveraged fast talking with dick wagging! And look at those guys.
They get million dollar bonuses while the companies they pilot crashland into the ground and investors feel the synergy of being gang-raped and immolated.

FTFY

Re:Hybrid Programmer-BusinessAnalyst Roles (2)

joebagodonuts (561066) | more than 2 years ago | (#38911775)

I see what you did there...posting to fix a moderation mistake. I meant +1 funny...

Re:Hybrid Programmer-BusinessAnalyst Roles (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38911587)

Just like how business graduates leveraged fast talking with dick wagging! And look at those guys. They get million dollar bonuses while the companies they pilot crashland into the ground and investors feel somewhere between gang-raped and immolated.

Jealous?

Re:Hybrid Programmer-BusinessAnalyst Roles (1)

couchslug (175151) | more than 2 years ago | (#38911609)

But THEY GOT the bonuses.

Fuck the companies who ASKED for what happened to them. As for investors, don't invest. Problem solved.

Re:Hybrid Programmer-BusinessAnalyst Roles (4, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38911557)

which means: Instead of hiring two people good at working together to manage it, one is hired at half the pay to do double the work!

Re:Hybrid Programmer-BusinessAnalyst Roles (2)

garaged (579941) | more than 2 years ago | (#38911825)

Having worked in small and big companies I can tell you that GP got a really true point, in small envs. you can work as the know it all, but on big envs. The diversity of problems would drive crazy trying to handle multiple layers of the infrastructure.

Re:Hybrid Programmer-BusinessAnalyst Roles (4, Insightful)

pooh666 (624584) | more than 2 years ago | (#38911673)

btw, this BS term, its real meaning, has been true since back in the pocket protector days. Just more of stupid infowadd trying to come up with something that sounds new out of the same old.. Ah duh I need to know about the business to program and build systems for it. YES like as it ALWAYS has been.

first post (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38911361)

certified

Good, Because Certs Are Worthless (5, Interesting)

afabbro (33948) | more than 2 years ago | (#38911363)

There are really own two certs I respect: Cisco's CCIE and Oracle's OCM. Both require hands-on lab demonstrations of skill. (Is RedHat doing that now, too?)

All other certs are undervalued by dumps. Microsoft, Oracle, Cisco - you name it, all you need to do is buy or torrent the questions online, memorize the answers, and go in and take the test. Literally, anyone with zero knowledge of the material can do this. It's laughable.

When I've been involved in hiring, I've never really paid attention to someone's certs. I'd certainly hire someone with several years of hands-on experience in a technology who wasn't certified over someone with no experience who was.

Re:Good, Because Certs Are Worthless (3, Informative)

betterunixthanunix (980855) | more than 2 years ago | (#38911399)

Both require hands-on lab demonstrations of skill. (Is RedHat doing that now, too?)

Back when I got my RHCT they certainly required it, and I cannot imagine that they stopped.

Re:Good, Because Certs Are Worthless (5, Informative)

txsable (169665) | more than 2 years ago | (#38911939)

Correct, the RHCT/RHCSA and RHCE certs do require a hands-on lab exam. I've done both of those--actually, all three since the RHEL5 to RHEL6 update happened between when I got my RHCT and RHCE, I had to take the RHCSA for RHEL6 before I could take the RHCE.

(wow, I don't usually type that many initialisms in one sentence...)

Re:Good, Because Certs Are Worthless (5, Funny)

cashman73 (855518) | more than 2 years ago | (#38911407)

I thought that the only certificate that tech employers cared about was the H1B?

Re:Good, Because Certs Are Worthless (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38911495)

The world is not exclusively limited to the states, you know...
There are some countries which are happy to welcome anybody as long as they have skills.

Re:Good, Because Certs Are Worthless (3, Interesting)

jcoy42 (412359) | more than 2 years ago | (#38911679)

Who specifically? Because I have skill, and want out of the states.

Easily answered (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38911855)

If you aren't capable of, nor driven to, research on your own to find this answer, then you don't deserve the jobs.

They want to hire people who can get things done....not people who just ask other people on the Internet to do their work for them.

Re:Easily answered (5, Insightful)

wickedskaman (1105337) | more than 2 years ago | (#38911889)

Part of being driven is networking and getting solutions using all resources available to you.

Re:Easily answered (2)

hawguy (1600213) | more than 2 years ago | (#38911895)

If you aren't capable of, nor driven to, research on your own to find this answer, then you don't deserve the jobs.

They want to hire people who can get things done....not people who just ask other people on the Internet to do their work for them.

Which, loosely translated, means "I don't know either, but if you look hard enough you might find something, but it's probably not going to be one of the countries you'd be willing to move to".

Re:Good, Because Certs Are Worthless (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38911537)

You forgot some:

L-1 - Between Tata and Cognizant, it's not as if 8,407 Americans could possibly do any of that work

J-1 - When J1 visitors do not pay Social Security, Medicare or Federal Unemployment taxes, employers do not have to match these taxes. A typical employer who hires 5 Work/Travel J1 visitors and pays $8/hour each may save over $2317 in a typical 4-months season

Anybody care to add more?

Re:Good, Because Certs Are Worthless (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38911421)

the labs and.written can be outsourced for both

Re:Good, Because Certs Are Worthless (3, Funny)

MightyMartian (840721) | more than 2 years ago | (#38911433)

I took some of the Microsoft certification Windows 2008 server courses, and I came out of understanding how these guys with their shiny certifications can be such incredibly ignorant idiots. I was astounded. How exactly any of it resembles in any way a proper education into something as multifaceted and at times complex as building, administering and troubleshooting an Active Directory environment was beyond me.

Re:Good, Because Certs Are Worthless (4, Interesting)

Penguinisto (415985) | more than 2 years ago | (#38911601)

It doesn't.

The last time I bothered was for Windows 2000, and only then because the employer at the time demanded it. Not sure if it has changed, but back then you only needed to know that according to Microsoft, only a Microsoft-based solution to any given problem was considered sufficient. This was in spite of the fact that it often didn't make sense.

I suspect things haven't changed much, and in my humble-but-professional opinion, someone with only the cert (and little-to-no experience) usually meant that they were superbly trained as marketing zombies, but were absolutely worthless as sysadmins.

(...example? Clicking "cancel" when Task Scheduler demands a password in Server 2k8 will lock out an AD account in a hurry. Neat little bug, but one of the zillions of subtle things a sysadmin would know, but an MCSA would not.)

Re:Good, Because Certs Are Worthless (4, Insightful)

DigiShaman (671371) | more than 2 years ago | (#38911709)

Hi. MCITP, MCSE, and MCDST here.

Microsoft certifications are about proof of concept and best practices along with familiarity of the product in question. That's it. It does not teach best business practices or optimization. It also doesn't teach advanced troubleshooting beyond looking up event logs and searching KB articles.

You took the test. There was nothing deceptive about them that should have astounded you. Perhaps your false expectations were raised too high? Not to be snarky here, but seriously. How does Microsoft differ from any other company's product certification in this regard?

Re:Good, Because Certs Are Worthless (5, Interesting)

MightyMartian (840721) | more than 2 years ago | (#38911851)

In other words, a reasonably experienced admin armed with Google and a basic knowledge of LDAP, DNS and Windows configuration is better armed for working with an Active Directory environment than someone who received a Microsoft certification.

Re:Good, Because Certs Are Worthless (3, Insightful)

DigiShaman (671371) | more than 2 years ago | (#38911923)

Correct. But the same could be said of any other certification too.

Let's be frank about it. Certifications don't replace experience on a resume' despite what they may have you believe. If anything, it's the other way around. Certifications are obtained to augment someone with existing product experience. In my view, they're a resume' enhancement when combined with experience. Clueless HR people want them. Don't hate the player, hate the game.

Re:Good, Because Certs Are Worthless (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38911987)

I've had to take some of those courses as a requirement for my degree and I cannot believe how easy the classes were. The professor (if you can call him that) did zero work in class (we graded each others work) and didn't even go through the trouble of setting up a domain server so that we could do the projects. In fact he wouldn't even answer students questions, instead telling them to ask someone in class who knows. The few times he would actually do a small lecture he would give out information that was in no way true and it seemed he just wanted to show the class how much smarter he was. I still have to take the Active Directory section, luckily from what I hear the professor who teaches that course has his act together and requires lots of hands-on work dealing with real-world situations in lab.

Re:Good, Because Certs Are Worthless (2)

TheRealMindChild (743925) | more than 2 years ago | (#38911485)

I remember the good old days, back with the MCSE certification tests, such as Windows NT 4.0 administration. It was almost completely of questions about integrating/migrating to/from/with a Novell network. My favorite, however, which was the Visual Basic Developer exam, which had no questions about code at all. There were just questions about the 'watch window' and the 'Package and Deployment Wizard'. I'm so glad work paid for those.

Re:Good, Because Certs Are Worthless (1)

afidel (530433) | more than 2 years ago | (#38911637)

WTF are you talking about, I got my MCSE+I and never once had a question about Novell migration...

Re:Good, Because Certs Are Worthless (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38911927)

And your MCSE was based on what OS?

Re:Good, Because Certs Are Worthless (1)

afidel (530433) | more than 2 years ago | (#38912035)

Since in was +i that means NT4.

Re:Good, Because Certs Are Worthless (2)

LordLimecat (1103839) | more than 2 years ago | (#38911499)

Still worth having some of those if you study; if you get the CCNA the proper way youll interview a heck of a lot better than the guy who did a dump.

Re:Good, Because Certs Are Worthless (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38911661)

The CCNA is a joke. In 1999 I got 100% on that at age 22 fresh out of college without ever touching a cisco router.

Re:Good, Because Certs Are Worthless (2)

LordLimecat (1103839) | more than 2 years ago | (#38911819)

In theory, the process of getting it will teach you exactly how a basic ethernet network works, and will enable you to troubleshoot a large number of networking issues rapidly.

In practice of course there are many who pass the exam without understanding MAC addressing, the difference between layer 2 and layer 3 problems, the difference between a switch and a hub, etc; but that doesnt make the training useless.

Re:Good, Because Certs Are Worthless (1)

rhook (943951) | more than 2 years ago | (#38912037)

I learned all that in college when I took the TCP/IP class.

Re:Good, Because Certs Are Worthless (1)

ganjadude (952775) | more than 2 years ago | (#38911847)

I took the CCNA in 2001 as a jr in high school and got a 100, granted I took a cisco class at BOCES, mainly because it let me get out of a bunch of boring classes. the CCNA isnt that hard at all, and ive looked at it since I took it and it is actually even easier now

Re:Good, Because Certs Are Worthless (4, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38911509)

I never got this certification hate that seems to be everywhere. If you're worried about hiring someone with certs that have no knowledge, couldn't that info be sussed out during the interview? Are you unable to ask practical application questions to weed these people out?

For someone like me, certs have gotten my foot in the door in this industry, with a company where there is plenty of room for moving up from desktop support to net/sys admin work. My hiring manager mentioned my certs and my knowledge as part of his reason for hiring me, and asked me the necessary questions to have me prove myself.

But keep hating on certs, it seems to be the thing to do.

Re:Good, Because Certs Are Worthless (3, Insightful)

Penguinisto (415985) | more than 2 years ago | (#38911645)

If you're worried about hiring someone with certs that have no knowledge, couldn't that info be sussed out during the interview?

If you know how, yes.

Problem is, most folks don't, and those who do in the company aren't part of the interview process. Given this, most processes usually end up with half-clued IT managers who are easily impressed by buzzwords, interviewing someone who only needs to exhibit a knowledge spectrum just slightly deeper than that of the aforementioned managers.

Re:Good, Because Certs Are Worthless (4, Insightful)

certain death (947081) | more than 2 years ago | (#38911791)

Well said...but you should have done it without being AC. I would have modded you up! BTW, the same goes for me. I have a CISSP-ISSAP, CCSA, JNCIE, CCIE and several other "C" credentials, I don't list them on my Resume to impress the technical folks, they simply get me past the HR guys. Once I get into the technical interview, I rely on my 20+ years of actually doing the job.

Re:Good, Because Certs Are Worthless (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38911567)

Apparently you havent taken any Cisco certifications in the past 7 years. You sound just like the boob that wrote this article. Skim a few articles or studies and you're an expert. All Cisco exams require configuration and even if you memorized the rest its not enough to pass you. Do your research before you go spouting off crap.

Re:Good, Because Certs Are Worthless (4, Informative)

afidel (530433) | more than 2 years ago | (#38911623)

Another good one is VMWare's VCDE, it requires a written proposal and an in-person defense.

I'm like you, most certs hold little value, show me what you've done and what you learned from it, that's the only thing that really matters. I kind of feel bad for freshly minted grads that went to a school without a coop program, they've paid all that money but are all but worthless unless a company is willing to invest at least a year in training them which costs about double their salary when you consider benefits plus the time of the people doing the training.

Re:Good, Because Certs Are Worthless (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38911713)

Another good one is VMWare's VCDE, it requires a written proposal and an in-person defense.

VMWare are training lawyers?

Re:Good, Because Certs Are Worthless (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38911753)

Do you mean VCDX?

Re:Good, Because Certs Are Worthless (1)

afidel (530433) | more than 2 years ago | (#38911925)

Yeah, I remembered what it stood for, forgot that they used x for expert....

Re:Good, Because Certs Are Worthless (2, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38911627)

certifications help the companies that sell the tests for the certifications. They make them money in lots of ways...first, from the sale of the tests. Second the "graduates" will use their equipment/software/whatever because they passed it, or because they are seen by some bosses as being at least competent in using that equipment, so that's what the company purchases. Third, neophytes see the certifications and decide they'll buy that equipment to learn so they can get the certification.

But worst of all, certifications help the incompetent get jobs, because they have a certification that says they are not incompetent. I'm against certifications for this very reason..

Re:Good, Because Certs Are Worthless (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38911641)

CCNA dump is over 900 questions. But yeah, ANYONE with ZERO knowledge can memorize all the answers. Your larger point is valid, dumps devalue certifications, but you undermine your own credibility by overstating the facts.

Re:Good, Because Certs Are Worthless (4, Interesting)

mikem170 (698970) | more than 2 years ago | (#38911781)

Most CCIEs I've met are sharp, however I've bumped into at least one glaring exception. He couldn't edit then copy/paste a simple standard access-list into a router - he didn't understand the access-list, nor did he know how to copy/paste into the session!!! We checked, his cert was legit as far as we could tell. I figured it had something to do with him working for a telco at the time (10+ years ago). I believe he had a lab. I also think he was grandfathered in - he didn't need to recertify or something. I changed my interview style after that. I ask a bunch of simple nitty-gritty tech question now, no matter how impressive the candidate sounds. You would be surprised how often someone whose resume looks stellar can't answer multiple simple questions - like what is a /24, a tcp reset packet, port used by http, etc.

Re:Good, Because Certs Are Worthless (2)

Artea (2527062) | more than 2 years ago | (#38911797)

All other certs are undervalued by dumps. Microsoft, Oracle, Cisco - you name it, all you need to do is buy or torrent the questions online, memorize the answers, and go in and take the test.

Just today I did just that for my Microsoft MCITP cert exams. I'm familiar with the whole lot, been working with servers for many years now, but most of the questions in the exam has very little to do with day-to-day workings or even deployment of servers in most cases. Memorizing the answers is the only way to know you are going to pass the cert exam. I understand why these certificates are undervalued though, since anyone with no intimate knowledge of server environments can memorize a few terms and technologies and be certified. Thankfully my resume has years of references and now (finally) certifications to back it up.

Re:Good, Because Certs Are Worthless (4, Interesting)

garaged (579941) | more than 2 years ago | (#38911837)

Redhat cert is pretty much hands on, and I can tell you that a lot of people think they have what it takes and fail on the exam at the very first steps

Re:Good, Because Certs Are Worthless (3, Interesting)

mysidia (191772) | more than 2 years ago | (#38911881)

There are really own two certs I respect: Cisco's CCIE and Oracle's OCM. Both require hands-on lab demonstrations of skill. (Is RedHat doing that now, too?)

Microsoft MCM certifications require hands-on lab demonstrations of skill. And there are plenty of other IT certs with similar requirements, that are not simple "pass a test, get the cert".

Have you seen the requirements for the VMware VCDX [vmware.com] and Cisco Certified Architect [cisco.com] certifications that require prospectives to submit an application, have suitable experience shown, be accepted, build a design to certain requirements, and then defend their design choices in front of a panel?

They kind of make Oracle OCM and IE look like like 'easy' certs by comparison.

There are also things like CISSP-ISSMP, where applicants actually must have 2 years of job experience specifically related to the knowledge base and positive references to certify, in addition to passing tests, and they must show a fair number of hours of continuing education every year to stay certified; so holding the papers there takes a lot more than just passing a test too.

CISSP (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38912011)

Even that one has lost its pizzazz. I paid thousands of dollars getting mine and keeping it current for years and years. I finally let it expire since it really bears zero weight anymore amongst anyone who knows it's really just a middle-management cert, and means diddly squat when it comes to actual 21st century IT security practices and requirements.

Re:Good, Because Certs Are Worthless (1)

iCEBaLM (34905) | more than 2 years ago | (#38911903)

Cisco certs have labs which require actual configuration/troubleshooting of multiple emulated cisco devices, memorizing answers will not get you through them.

Re:Good, Because Certs Are Worthless (1)

shuz (706678) | more than 2 years ago | (#38911943)

The basic VCP VMware Certified Professional is your standard memorize test. The VCAP VMware Certified Advanced Professional is a lab where they make you build it, then they break it, then you fix it. I don't think either are as difficult as my experiences in the real world but they are a starting point. The VCAP at least shows that someone has some problem solving skills. Hey where is my certified IT problem solver certification? Could be an interesting test. Or better PHd. in IT Architecture? The real geniuses in big business just don't get no respect, no respect at all I tell ya!

My MCSE dreams (1)

alen (225700) | more than 2 years ago | (#38911367)

Of making $150 seem to be over

Re:My MCSE dreams (1)

Osgeld (1900440) | more than 2 years ago | (#38911487)

its been over for nearly a decade when they started to sell them in strip mall "schools" on TechTV

Dev Certs are Not Worthwhile (4, Insightful)

kramer2718 (598033) | more than 2 years ago | (#38911425)

I can't speak to networking/DBA certs, but I will say that in my experience hiring developers, programming certificates are relatively useless.

In fact, when I read a resume, I am happy to see no certificates. The developers who highlight certificates on their resumes seem to be able to parrot back technical specs, but not to think dynamically about programming problems and that is what I am more interested in.

No certificate will replace writing code on a whiteboard.

Re:Dev Certs are Not Worthwhile (5, Insightful)

c0lo (1497653) | more than 2 years ago | (#38911543)

In fact, when I read a resume, I am happy to see no certificates.

Me too, the reason being: I appreciate persons that value their time (i.e. better do nothing - not even gain experience - than waste the time with the certification).

Re:Dev Certs are Not Worthwhile (1)

SQLGuru (980662) | more than 2 years ago | (#38911735)

I've worked for almost 20 years without a single cert. But recently took a job as a consultant. We're required to get the certs so that the clients get all warm and fuzzy. I'll do it because I'm not worried about the tests (I'm pretty sure I can pass many of them "cold"), but I've know for years that there are good developers with certs and without....just like there are idiots with or without certs.

Translation: (2)

Alex Belits (437) | more than 2 years ago | (#38911437)

Hay guyz, computers are easy now, let's hire more middle managers who know Excel!

Not that most "certifications" weren't always only slightly above the "fraud" level -- they are given to people who passed crash course in some vendor's product use, and do not indicate any ability to do anything useful (or even safe) in practice.

Re:Translation: (1)

w.hamra1987 (1193987) | more than 2 years ago | (#38911489)

indeed... for as far as i can tell, the so called Microsoft Courses, which end up giving you a Microsoft Certified status, means nothing when it comes to knowledge of how to properly use your tools. all it means is that now you're someone who was hypnotized into picking Microsoft software for any project you ever have... you don't have to know how to use it, as long as you know how to make powerpoint presentations that can convince your boss to buy licenses en masse, you're a successful graduate of their course.

Re:Translation: (2)

secretsquirel (805445) | more than 2 years ago | (#38911859)

most things can be done in excel

Only a couple were ever valuable (1)

bigsexyjoe (581721) | more than 2 years ago | (#38911465)

The only really good certs are the CISCO ones. Microsoft ones are good, but only to get your foot in the door. Are there any other certs worthwhile?

Market Place Expectation (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38911473)

Certs matter don't let this post fool you for a minute. Most of those hiring out there want everything now they don't understand it takes time hands on time to hone skills. Since they don't know the technology themselves they rely on certs as a measure of competency (their competency). Its a business and it worth a lot of money. Its not going away. It does have some value i might admit to discard altogether is ignorant. As mentioned in above posts demonstration of hands on cert understanding is impressive, but again it does not guarantee you a job just you paid more for your cert.

Lets face it who you know is probably worth more than your cert.

Re:Market Place Expectation (1)

c0lo (1497653) | more than 2 years ago | (#38911565)

Most of those hiring out there want everything now they don't understand it takes time hands on time to hone skills. Since they don't know the technology themselves they rely on certs as a measure of competency (their competency).

Wishful thinking: they (together with their organisation?) won't last long.
The reality seems to point that they are lasting longer than one needs to find a job.

Re:Market Place Expectation (1)

hawguy (1600213) | more than 2 years ago | (#38911935)

Certs matter don't let this post fool you for a minute. Most of those hiring out there want everything now they don't understand it takes time hands on time to hone skills. Since they don't know the technology themselves they rely on certs as a measure of competency (their competency). Its a business and it worth a lot of money. Its not going away. It does have some value i might admit to discard altogether is ignorant. As mentioned in above posts demonstration of hands on cert understanding is impressive, but again it does not guarantee you a job just you paid more for your cert.

Lets face it who you know is probably worth more than your cert.

It really depends on the hiring manager and the type of position. If you're looking to be a cog in a big corporation hired by a non-technical manager, some certs on your resume may help you. In all likelihood you can make up any certs you want and he'll never know or check up on you.

But if you're working for a smaller company or a tech company with a hiring manager that has some technical knowledge, the cert might have some value at getting you past HR, but won't help you get the job.

I know I never look at certs, but I do like to see at least a 4 year degree in a technical major (but experience trumps education)

Wifi Administrator (2)

Osgeld (1900440) | more than 2 years ago | (#38911475)

really?certified wireless network administrator? some pud to reset the router every once in a while and add new apple iToys plug computers whenever douche #43 cant eat lunch between two vending machines is in demand?

Re:Wifi Administrator (1)

UnknowingFool (672806) | more than 2 years ago | (#38911549)

Maybe if you read about it you would learn it's much more than about consumer grade routers. My former company was in logistics but they often recommended to their clients that they get a site survey done by one of these guys. See it's not about that guy trying to check in Facebook. For us, it was to ensure that they guys in the warehouse who are running tens if not hundreds of wireless transactions a second on our systems are not hampered by dead spots.

Re:Wifi Administrator (2)

Osgeld (1900440) | more than 2 years ago | (#38911667)

yea its not that hard (as someone who was one of those guys but not under a narrowly focused marketing buzzword title)

Re:Wifi Administrator (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38911795)

Butt hurt that your junk cert still won't help you earn more than $80k/year?

Re:Wifi Administrator (1)

DigiShaman (671371) | more than 2 years ago | (#38911605)

Simply put, WiFi airspace is severely crowded. ISPs practically give away WiFi routers for free (Uverse and those damn 2Wire units). My guess is that a WiFi admin's purpose is to scope deployment and ensure a good SNR level for proper coverage without blowing the budget. Also to troubleshoot and isolate interference. Poor SOB. That's got to be a frustrating job.

Article smells strongly of B.S. (4, Insightful)

sirwired (27582) | more than 2 years ago | (#38911483)

Take the following statement: ""Pure-play [tech] jobs are on the decline," concurs Bill Reynolds, a partner at Foote. Where once the majority of tech jobs were in technology companies, now many organizations whose business is not directly related to tech have many openings that require different skills, he says."

Bullshit. People actually working for tech companies have ALWAYS been far fewer than those that run the technology in customer IT departments. This is not some new startling trend. If you want a career in IT with high potential (as opposed to the tech industry) business skills have always been a valuable accompaniment to tech skills; the business-blind sysadmin geek has never been up for the higher reaches of IT, and never will be. Again, not a new trend that this sage wise man is now cluing us in on.

Re:Article smells strongly of B.S. (0)

JonySuede (1908576) | more than 2 years ago | (#38911535)

the business-blind sysadmin geek has never been up for the higher reaches of IT

sadly it happen some time... ignorance is probably a bliss, as some of them might says

Re:Article smells strongly of B.S. (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38911569)

Your abuse of English is not bringing me any bliss.

Re:Article smells strongly of B.S. (2)

RandomAvatar (2487198) | more than 2 years ago | (#38911617)

If someone else actually replies to this Anonymous Coward, please follow this link afterwards: You've been trolled [youtube.com]

Re:Article smells strongly of B.S. (1)

bigstrat2003 (1058574) | more than 2 years ago | (#38911579)

the business-blind sysadmin geek has never been up for the higher reaches of IT, and never will be.

Of course, that person probably doesn't want to be in those positions either. So I don't think what you say is a real weakness.

Re:Article smells strongly of B.S. (1)

pooh666 (624584) | more than 2 years ago | (#38911655)

You gave a good example, but TFA is littered with generalizations that cancel out to being meanlingless, it is clear it was written to be as long as possible with maybe 5 lines of actual info, which taken out of context don't mean anything, still. I really wish people would stop posting infoworld and I am totaly sick of the popups AND on top of it a div hover add, the another popup on the next page. Gee I wonder why the word count was so important??

Re:Article smells strongly of B.S. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38911703)

Huh? You actually read the articles? What kind of freak are you?

Degrees (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38911491)

You know what I'm finding is even less valuable then a certificate? An I.T. Degree...

Re:Degrees (1)

kiwimate (458274) | more than 2 years ago | (#38911789)

You know what I'm finding is even less valuable then a certificate? An I.T. Degree...

Err, you may want to consider getting certified in English...

Certs don't seem to matter at some companies (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38911505)

Certs don't really matter now, especially at the big companies. Server+ which the article mentioned adds in raid, and some really poor facilities info, but really A+ is more worth it for those who actually want to learn something (having obtained both certs myself.) The HP certs are honestly worthless too, 90% of them are open book. Maybe they should matter though, lately my management has been hiring a bunch of cert less people, who I quite honestly think should not be touching anything. Just yesterday one of the new hires (certless) made a big screwup on a db host and killed the data on it (5tb worth of data, thank goodness for a working backup system.)

Re:Certs don't seem to matter at some companies (2)

Osgeld (1900440) | more than 2 years ago | (#38911511)

who's the clown letting the noob work on a live 5tb database?

VMware? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38911507)

Is VCP still considered "worth it"? Considering upgrading from 3.5 to 5 once I finish my masters..

Less crappy view (1)

MurukeshM (1901690) | more than 2 years ago | (#38911519)

http://www.infoworld.com/print/185555 [infoworld.com]

Why do we have infoworld articles so often? The site only seems to link to itself (except for ads).

Re:Less crappy view (2)

Nemyst (1383049) | more than 2 years ago | (#38911873)

Because IW employees are probably paid to submit them and editors post them?

Evolve or Die (1)

kamaaina (1071006) | more than 2 years ago | (#38911563)

I agree with the article statement saying

"The key is to evolve your skills with the demand", its been a far road from editing the config.sys file to understanding VLAN tagging.

Also, one thing I am surprised not on there is virtualization, I think you need a broad set of skills to manage a vmware environment, on the technical side you need to know different OS's, SAN, VLANs, IO etc. Also you need to be able to manage a political minefield where everyone things they should have a high priorty, and justify budgets from different groups using those resources.

No job yet, but... (5, Funny)

multiben (1916126) | more than 2 years ago | (#38911591)

I have certificate of participation I received for my recent attendance in an "Equality at Work" seminar. Still no job offers as yet, but I expect the big bucks to start rolling in anytime soon.

real job skills / apprenticeship / trades are need (2)

Joe_Dragon (2206452) | more than 2 years ago | (#38911677)

real job skills / apprenticeship / trades are needed in tech as like CS a lot of certs can be passed by people who can cram but have no idea on what they are doing also some of them cover stuff that you never see in a real work place or if you do it's like why are things setup like that any ways?

CS is even worse then certs as it just covers high level stuff at least certs cover some basic stuff that you do use on the job.

Now with a trades system we can get real certs that cover real system setup's.

Thank God (4, Insightful)

Baron_Yam (643147) | more than 2 years ago | (#38911699)

I had to get some Microsoft certifications to break into the IT world - yet I never bothered with my A+, Novell, additional MS certifications, etc. Instead, I picked up a few very specific certs here and there and specialized. Yeah, I'm useless outside my field, but I (was) a star within it. The only guy in the world doing what I did, in fact.

You know what? When I changed jobs, the new employer didn't see my inappropriate certs, they saw my star status within my specialty and assumed I could adapt to a new one and perform just as well... and now I'm getting new very specific certs in a slightly different area.

Nothing specific you learn in IT is going to matter in two years anyway, never mind ten, and the general stuff is amazingly applicable across moderate ranges of differing IT work.

Check it out (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38911719)

The #1 best quote site on the web is http://www.earthsquotes.com

corporation devalues labor. film at eleven (1)

decora (1710862) | more than 2 years ago | (#38911731)

when are we going to realize that the system's only purpose is to bend you over a bench and extract your intrinsic value for the benefit of shareholders and hedge funds?

Re:corporation devalues labor. film at eleven (1)

Swampash (1131503) | more than 2 years ago | (#38911763)

Sometime around when IT workers realise they work in an industry with no barrier to entry and that the job they think is so important can just as competently be done by someone in India at 10% of the cost.

Certs are only as valid as they are difficult. (1)

gimmebeer (1648629) | more than 2 years ago | (#38911755)

Let's face it, anything by CompTIA and to an increasing degree at the lower certification level, Microsoft, is worthless. If it's a straight memorize, take test, do a braindump and update your resume type of exam... eventually even HR types will catch on to it and it will go from a 'preferred experience' to a 'job requirement'. Employers will continue to use certs as yardsticks to measure potential hires, especially when they can obtain 'Partner' or 'Gold' status and add a cool logo to their website by claiming to have X number of MCPs, but the real IT people who do the interviewing will see through it immediately. There are higher level certs that still hold weight... CCIE, CISSP, VCDX, some others I don't know or care about, that will continue to hold weight. Also do not forget that the US govt is continually requiring it's employees in certain positions to hold specific certs... *cough*CISSP*cough* which in a sense floods the certified ranks with those who took a mandatory class and otherwise would never have attempted the exam and artificially inflates the numbers of people certified, which in the end will de-value the cert. I generally don't look at most certs as real means of proving I know something, I look at them as a way to market myself to the HR types who will be the first to review my resume. If I can match enough acronyms to make them happy, I can get an interview with the tech people who will actually determine if I am qualified for the position. It's just a big game and geek pride thing that we, as IT types, must endure.

Article is 100% pure crap (1)

walterbyrd (182728) | more than 2 years ago | (#38911757)

These types of articles are written by have never worked in IT one day of their lives. These people can't spell "I.T." And yet we are supposed to believe they are experts.

From the article:

So which skills are becoming more valuable, gaining the pay premiums IT pros seek? Certified skills that jumped by 15 percent or more included EC-Council certified security analyst, certified wireless network administrator, CompTIA Server+, and HP accredited platform specialist. (Notice how these are broader skills sets than those losing value?)

CompTIA Server+ !? Oh yeah that's just one smokin' cert right now. Why not go to a job board and take a look at how many employers are demanding that valuable certification.

Re:Article is 100% pure crap (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38911857)

CompTIA Server+ !? Oh yeah that's just one smokin' cert right now. Why not go to a job board and take a look at how many employers are demanding that valuable certification.

Google "CompTIA Server+ site:monster.com"

Re:Article is 100% pure crap (1)

styrotech (136124) | more than 2 years ago | (#38911905)

My favourite bit was this...

"...as did e-commerce skills like JavaScript, Joomla, and VBScript."

huh?

In Summary... (1)

evilviper (135110) | more than 2 years ago | (#38911823)

In summary, the flavor of the month is different this month than last month... If you care, you've already failed.

Specialization is falling out of favor a bit... Except where it isn't...

And there's more jobs available this year than last year.

My experience looking for a Job (1)

atari2600a (1892574) | more than 2 years ago | (#38911961)

Here in CA, if you want to be a technician you either have to have certs OR a degree in a related field OR experience-- all three of those appear to be wildly interchangeable unless it's a bureaucratic environment where a certification ACTUALLY IS required. That, & if you want to be a technician of any sort you have to have a valid Class-C license & a car, so you're fucked if you drive a bike with a milk-crate tied to the luggage rack.
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