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President By Day, High-Tech Headhunter By Night

Soulskill posted more than 2 years ago | from the fixing-the-economy-one-engineer-at-a-time dept.

Businesses 494

theodp writes "The White House is following up on an offer made by President Barack Obama this week to help find a job for an unemployed semiconductor engineer in Texas. The offer was made during a live online town hall after the ex-TI engineer's wife questioned the government's policy concerning H-1B visa workers. Obama asked for EE Darin Wedel's resume and said he would 'forward it to some of these companies that are telling me they can't find enough engineers in this field.' While grateful, patent-holder Wedel said the president's view on the job prospects for engineers in his field 'is definitely not what's happening in the real world.' Duke adjunct professor Vivek Wadhwa offered his frank take on 40-year-old Wedel's predicament: 'The No. 1 issue in the tech world is as people get older, they generally become more expensive. So if you're an employer who can hire a worker fresh out of college who is making $60,000 versus an older worker who is making $150,000, and the younger worker has skills that are fresher, who would you hire?' Coincidentally, Texas Instruments sought President Obama's help in reducing restrictions on the hiring of younger foreign workers in 2009, the same year it laid off Wedel."

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Old is gold? (5, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38926991)

So if you're an employer who can hire a worker fresh out of college who is making $60,000 versus an older worker who is making $150,000, and the younger worker has skills that are fresher, who would you hire

Dont the older ones come with experience?
As an example (though not valid in this case, but still shows the point), a more experienced person would know to avoid using floats to save monetary values,etc...
In the tech industry, as in management, the top spots are obviously fewer than entry level, so over time many people will stagnate when climbing the ladder

Re:Old is gold? (4, Insightful)

SJHillman (1966756) | more than 2 years ago | (#38927065)

Yes, but is the experience worth an extra $90,000 a year? The value of experience usually hits a plateau, but workers still want wages to continue increasing.

Re:Old is gold? (5, Insightful)

RightwingNutjob (1302813) | more than 2 years ago | (#38927107)

Depends. Is it the difference between a product up to spec as per contract and an emergency fix that costs 90k to implement or a schedule slip with a 90k lateness penalty?

Re:Old is gold? (4, Insightful)

SJHillman (1966756) | more than 2 years ago | (#38927641)

But is that much experience required? What about all of the workers in the middle ground, with ten or twenty years experience opposed to thirty or forty years? There's bound to be plenty of cases where forty years beats twenty, but there's a point of diminishing returns. While you couldn't replace an experienced worker with ten fresh college grads, you might be able to replace one highly experienced worker with one moderately experienced worker plus a fresh grad and pocket ten or twenty thousand.

Re:Old is gold? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38927207)

In some cases it will be, yes. In the majority of cases it probably won't be. The problem here is that people need to be more realistic about their careers. I'm earning £40,000 right now and I'm in my early thirties. I genuinely do not expect to be earning (the inflation adjusted equivilent of) ~£80,000 when I retire.

Re:Old is gold? (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38927265)

A lot of employees would be content with their wages merely increasing with the cost of living so that they're not LOSING money each year. THAT would seem fair enough.

Also, how is it hard for a 40 year old engineer to find a job? I find this whole story skeptical. I work with a ton of engineers who are in their 40s and 50s and maybe even 60s, in some cases. In fact, there are more of them than there are guys like myself - in our 20s and 30s. And they are getting job offers with very little problem and leaving the company. Or being hired by the company from other companies. Or moving to more interesting positions within the company. Sure, there are obviously some occurrences here and there were we are discriminated against as we get older, but I don't think it's as common as the unemployed ones would like to suggest. I don't know a single engineer that I have worked with in my fifteen years at this company who is unemployed; they have all found jobs. Often better ones with better pay.

Re:Old is gold? (5, Interesting)

TheGratefulNet (143330) | more than 2 years ago | (#38927585)

I'm 50, out of work and in the bay area. I'll save you the details, but trust me, I'M NOT LYING. its hard as hell to find work when everyone is half your age (or less) and willing to slave for wages that end up putting me backwards.

you see the people around you. IN JOBS. and you declare there is not a problem.

wow...

let me say again, there is very much a problem and I'm living proof. worked at a who's who and have 25+ yrs in C and generic hardware/software engineering. but no one wants to hire (fulltime with benes; lots of contract offers but they are all lowballs) someone my age. you don't belive it but its still true and I'm living proof.

I was cocky in my 20's and 30's. I thought I owned the world and every big-name company I worked for 'stroked' me. but when I hit 40, things changed. and now that I'm 50, things VERY much changed.

you are wrong. just plain wrong. your data sample size is too small. otoh, I have a group of friends my age and they ALL have this problem. some are damned near genius level and no one wants older guys, not even if they've been everywhere and done everything. older means expensive and also not willing to be abused by the employer.

they don't want us anymore, for many reasons.

Re:Old is gold? (4, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38927319)

One of the places that hired a contractor that cost them a bit over a million and half of product recall. I was hired to test and fix that product. For 6 month worth of work, the defect went down from 15% return to 0%.

Do you think I am worth that money to the company?

Re:Old is gold? (3, Insightful)

secretsquirel (805445) | more than 2 years ago | (#38927503)

well, not anymore..

Old IS gold (4, Insightful)

fyngyrz (762201) | more than 2 years ago | (#38927401)

Speaking as a guy who just retired from running a tech company, yes, it is. In the EE realm, with which I am most familiar, the experienced guy has been through the FCC testing rigamarole and can just be sent off to do it without supervision -- and he'll come back with a product that passed, because he knew what the requirements were when he designed it.

The experienced guy knows all the suppliers; knows where to call for what components; knows to check for multiple sources and to avoid single source vulnerabilities if at all possible; has written in programming languages A..M and when presented with N, can learn it in very little time, whereas New EE Guy knows languages L,M and N and is absolutely clueless when it comes to maintaining product X's assembly code written in F, nor has he the depth needed to pick it up, and the product design with all its little foibles, that the experienced guy has.

The experienced guy has tons of product experience and puts that to work for you every time a new design is required. New EE guy will probably get caught asking your techs questions instead of educating them. The experienced guy knows that the GPL is a box of landmines, and that it must be avoided at all costs; New EE Guy is likely to walk around for quite some time proclaiming open source is great before he actually understands that the company needs to make money and needs to retain the technology to do so exclusively for as long as possible in order to to pay him.

The experienced EE can do a myriad of things; interview new hires (if you let HR do this, you're already half way to screwed, frankly) he can answer questions at any level from customer to any tier of technical support, he can actually *resolve* problems and in minutes because he's familiar with your products (if you kept him on... if he's experienced but a new hire to you, his benefit is he will learn them a lot faster.) The experienced guy probably even knows a lot about things he wasn't directly involved with, by a sort of office osmosis... people talk about the biz, especially if they're well compensated and treated well, and a synergy arises that New EE Guy simply can't roll into blind.

New EE guy has a limited number of tools in his "toolbox" and very little, if any, experience employing them. The experienced guy has enormous depth and is likely to solve any given problem faster, better, and more to the company's long term benefit than the New EE guy can.

Yes, the experienced EE costs more for insurance, deserves (doesn't always get) higher compensation, should have accrued more vacation time, probably has kids... he or she costs more, all right, but you get so much more it's an obvious decision if the goal is for the company to do well in the long run.

If, however, the goal is to appease myopic beancounters about the upcoming quarter... yeah, that experienced guy is getting replaced by New EE Guy, the bottom line looks better for a few months, and future products will have to look after themselves. And looking at the state of today's US tech companies, with the notable exception of Apple... I can't say I'm surprised at all. By and large, they are reaping what they have sown.

Having said all that, companies still need New EE Guy. but not as a means to kick out some experienced fellow; you want the new guy hired ten years or more before the experienced guy is going to retire so he can learn FROM the experienced guy, and then, when Really Experienced Guy retires, New EE Guy isn't New EE Guy any more, he is Experienced Guy.

If you don't invest in the future, you won't fucking have a future. Company executives should inscribe that on a bat and beat the damned beancounters over the head with it on a regular basis. Figuratively speaking.

Re:Old IS gold (3, Insightful)

ScrewMaster (602015) | more than 2 years ago | (#38927507)

Figuratively speaking.

I'm not to0 sure about that: I think it might take a few literal attempts to get the point across.

Re:Old IS gold (1)

jhoegl (638955) | more than 2 years ago | (#38927549)

Thank you for your insight.
as a pessimistic tech, this lightens my day

Re:Old is gold? (4, Insightful)

BoRegardless (721219) | more than 2 years ago | (#38927415)

Upfront: I am over 60. Been doing product design for 45+ years. I think and have thought for decades, you get what you pay for.

An article recently in Wired or Tech. Review noted that it takes longer for engineers in complex subjects to start to make significant innovations and patents as the technology field becomes so much more complex from coatings to material alloys to sensors. Older, more experienced engineers are needed.

Experience = thousands of failures experienced on your projects and co-workers failures, some which were "fixed" and some which were terminal. Success = avoiding & overcoming failures quickly based on wide experience in your field!

Without that knowledge, you don't know how to frame a design to avoid the hidden failure modes, and you don't have the breadth of solutions to offer to get to a solution in the fastest time.

I've seen newer engineers make gross mistakes costing companies on a single product, millions of dollars a year in lost profits for a variety of reasons and also having a less than optimal product. I also know that the guy who designed it was 2 years out of college and given the design job because "it is a simple product". You can analyze this 10 ways to Sunday, but everyone knows you can produce a simple product that is a loser. It is also true that the young engineer did NOT have an experienced engineer over him to guide him in the right directions. Most likely it was an "Engineering Manager" who didn't know true product design that gave the young guy the job.

Re:Old is gold? (4, Insightful)

ScrewMaster (602015) | more than 2 years ago | (#38927493)

Yes, but is the experience worth an extra $90,000 a year? The value of experience usually hits a plateau, but workers still want wages to continue increasing.

Yes, and it's worth a hell of a lot more than that in most cases.

See, what you (and many, many shortsighted corporate HR types) are overlooking is this: it's not just the individual's expertise in his particular field that should be counted. Contrary to popular belief, engineers cannot just be dropped into any situation based upon their resume, plugged in, and rationally be expected to be highly productive. There's a reason for that: an engineer's specific knowledge of his organization, its products, and its operations is often far more important than the nominal technical skills he picked up in school. Such intimate knowledge can take many, many years to acquire, and simply cannot be replaced at the drop of a hat. You also have to account for the relationships that engineers build with both suppliers and customers: that rapport is an often vital aspect of engineering and can make the difference between a profitable project or an abysmal failure. Engineering staff that customers come to trust are an important part of retaining said customers. And again, that takes time, and if you want your engineers to stick around long enough to do all that, you have to treat them with some respect as well.

Smart managers will, as their senior people begin to age and head towards retirement, bring in a younger engineer or two and have them work hand-in-hand with the older staff until they're capable of picking up the load. That takes time, it takes an investment in people, and salary/benefits are actually the least important part of the equation.

Frankly, all this focus on transient workers (which is all your average H-1B is, when you get right down to it ... most aren't here for the long haul) and salary leaves out of the discussion an engineer or technical person's actual value. That's a lot harder for your typical cost-cutting "efficiency" type to pin down, so they use simple-minded metrics such as salary. And you know what? That kind of thinking has cost American business a lot.

Re:Old is gold? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38927663)

Yes, but is the experience worth an extra $90,000 a year? The value of experience usually hits a plateau, but workers still want wages to continue increasing.

First off, I'll ignore your ignorant and prejudiced views about older workers [i.e. workers who aren't in their 20s]. This discrimination is something that industry leaders should be put in jail for, but that isn't going to happen, and everybody should know by now the reason why. To continue...

Nope, for all you free market capitalists out their, wages should be market driven, which means that the United States government should not be artificially flooding the market with cheap foreign labour.

Ironic how the bourgeoisie don't have a problem with denying entry to cheap unskilled Mexican labour, but when it comes to cheap skilled labour from Europe or India, these wealthy corporations want the U.S. government to spread its legs wide open.

BTW, it's not just technology firms that asks for government intervention to help subsidize their industries with cheap foreign trained workers. In Canada the construction industry has always pressured the government to let in experienced labour while claiming that there is a labour shortage in Canada (despite the high unemployment rate).

Nope, all these so-called labour shortages are industry manufactured and government sanctioned. The people who gain are the share holders and executives. Everybody else loses.

On a somewhat related note, there is an interesting article on corporate welfare at AlJazeera.

References:
http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2012/02/20122164215194680.html [aljazeera.com]

Re:Old is gold? (3, Interesting)

AdrianKemp (1988748) | more than 2 years ago | (#38927085)

The real trick is, companies are starting to find out that old is not gold.

Firstly, they've convinced end users to put up with subpar products (not just buggy software, but stuff with 2 year expected life instead of 20).

Second, they've discovered that old guys tend not to be willing to work 80 hours a week and call it 40 (there are many exceptions I'm sure, but they typically have families and shy away from that stuff)

Third, with the rate at which things are advancing the old guys need to have been very proactive in keeping up, or they may have experience but lack the knowledge. Again, lots do -- but not all.

Re:Old is gold? (5, Insightful)

cosm (1072588) | more than 2 years ago | (#38927199)

willing to work 80 hours a week and call it 40

This. The 'end' of overtime is infuriating. If you're salary perhaps there are exceptions in that it's understood as such, ie the financial security of salary is repayed by the occasional 50-80 week to get the job done. But if you're hourly and being 'payed' for a full '40' pseudosalary-style (seen this many places), and being worked 60+ on a consistent basis, well, fuck that. I've known shops where everybody is getting paid an hourly wage on the checks for 40 a week, but you were an immediate outcast if you didn't come in 2 hours early and stay 2 hours late every gd day.

Re:Old is gold? (2)

St.Creed (853824) | more than 2 years ago | (#38927315)

In my case (paid by the hour as consultant) I never charge more than 40 hours a week, unless the customer specifically requests it. Because it leaves me free to work exactly 40 hours a week if I so desire, and usually I work a bit more (30 minutes on average) to make sure that everyone knows I work at least 8 hours.

If they want more, they can ask for it. And I will ask them for payment for it. No exceptions. But then again, I understand when it's crunch time and I make sure my work is done (delivery on time as specced). So they have no leverage over me. In situations where the task never ends with a department that is basically severely understaffed, this can be very different. Which is precisely why I'm not in any software development business that requires that sort of thing.

Re:Old is gold? (5, Insightful)

forkfail (228161) | more than 2 years ago | (#38927413)

Sad thing is, the experienced guy can often get done in 20 what it takes the new guy 80 to do, but to a certain type of managers, all he sees is that the old guy goes home after 40, and the young guy is working away over the weekend....

Who says they want more pay? (5, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38927249)

I keep seeing this "older workers are more expensive".

I was so deperate for work that I was willing to take an entry level salary. Unfortunately, I never got a chance to express that because no one even bothered to interview me. Anyway, after several years of trying (and depleting all of my savings), I got the hint and left the profession.

Re:Who says they want more pay? (1)

SteeldrivingJon (842919) | more than 2 years ago | (#38927353)

There's probably an assumption that if you're willing to take less, there must be something 'wrong' with you. It's like people in HR/hiring don't live in the real world.

Re:Who says they want more pay? (2)

fyngyrz (762201) | more than 2 years ago | (#38927477)

There are age-related costs you can't control. Insurance is one of them. Declining health is another. Kids are often another. The mortgage an older person usually has is another. Sometimes an actual age-predjudice exists; we've heard many reports of ageism out of companies we know well in the last few years. "The kids" sometimes don't play well with older folks.

Beancounters set policy based on those sorts of things in order to push short term results to the front of the importance queue, and HR executes those policies by winnowing the resume stack up front based on age unless someone actively steps in, which is unlikely these days.

I'm not defending these practices -- I think the people implementing them should be shot for incompetence -- but that's the way it usually works.

Re:Old is gold? (1)

Hentes (2461350) | more than 2 years ago | (#38927473)

IT is evolving rapidly, making experience worth less than in more traditional fields.

Fresher skills? (5, Insightful)

DoninIN (115418) | more than 2 years ago | (#38927019)

How often in the real world do you find yourself thinking. "Gee he's never really done this before in an applied, practical setting. That makes his skills fresher!" In my case that would be a big never.

Re:Fresher skills? (2)

etymxris (121288) | more than 2 years ago | (#38927277)

Typically companies wants someone with exactly 5 or 10 years of experience and no more. After that, employees start costing more than they're worth.

Re:Fresher skills? (5, Interesting)

St.Creed (853824) | more than 2 years ago | (#38927343)

Yes, because the patentholder with 200 patents is completely interchangeable with all those young graduates with 5 years experience. I'm pretty sure they'll all rack up that sort of trackrecord too.

This sort of thinking stems from the "humans as cookies" school of thought. All cookies are the same. So you can replace cookies with other cookies. Somehow this never really works out when you work with humans.

I'll never forget my fathers company. They had one administrator do most of the bookkeeping. He didn't automate much, but he knew the status of every invoice in detail, where it was, who had it, etc. He worked about 5 hours a day and spent the other 3 composing music. In his office.

When he retired they had to hire two people who work full time to replace him. Yeah, completely interchangeable. Not.

^^^this^^^ (4, Insightful)

fyngyrz (762201) | more than 2 years ago | (#38927495)

Yes, exactly, precisely, perfectly on-target.

Beancounters see salary and associated costs, and nothing else. And that view rewards them next quarter after a replacement with many dollars. Later in the year, when the second hire has to be made, the beancounter's sole reaction will be to make sure it's the cheapest person they can find -- and there is no realization that the entire cost came from the beancounter's error in the first place.

Re:Fresher skills? (1)

zblack_eagle (971870) | more than 2 years ago | (#38927365)

I wasn't aware that there were either laws that require employers to pay older workers significantly higher salaries than fresh graduates or that older workers would rather starve and go homeless than work for a lower salary.

Re:Fresher skills? (2)

Dutch Gun (899105) | more than 2 years ago | (#38927487)

Typically companies wants someone with exactly 5 or 10 years of experience and no more. After that, employees start costing more than they're worth.

I'm curious... "costing more than they're worth"... I had thought that that most IT workers are not unionized. Am I mistaken? I get paid what I do because my employer and I have negotiated that value on my initial hiring. At subsequent years they've increased my salary to compensate for my performance and increased experience. If I don't agree with the pay rate, I'm free to try to re-negotiate or find a higher paying job.

Is someone forcing these companies to pay employees based on some time-based salary schedule? Or are we just talking about normal market forces, where if you don't pay experience people enough some other company will lure them away? Sorry, I just don't know how it works outside my own somewhat specialized industry (game development), where pretty much everyone negotiates salaries on their own.

Re:Fresher skills? (1)

DrEldarion (114072) | more than 2 years ago | (#38927669)

I've run into plenty of people who have loudly proclaimed that they've been IN THE FIELD FOR 30 YEARS, but yet don't know how to do anything on modern systems, don't understand the internet, etc.

Old, "experienced" people aren't worth anything unless they've kept their skills up to date. In cases like that, people fresh out of college with no real-world experience may actually be better for a job.

Experience trumps (3, Informative)

LynnwoodRooster (966895) | more than 2 years ago | (#38927027)

Chances are the new grads skills are fresher, but not as applicable as someone who's been in the field actively working. Hands-on experience is worth a lot...

Re:Experience trumps (1, Informative)

wvmarle (1070040) | more than 2 years ago | (#38927093)

There are reasons to hire a fresh grad and there are reasons to hire an older more experienced worker. Salary is one of them. Skills is one of them. Experience is one of them. If a company thinks a fresh grad is worth $60k and can get one for $60k, they may just hire him. If they think an experienced guy is worth $120k, but they ask $150k, then they may just not hire him.

Is that experience really worth 2 1/2 fresh grads? Or is it worth 2 fresh grads? It depends. And maybe the more experienced people indeed do have to consider lowering their sights.

Re:Experience trumps (5, Insightful)

ScrewMaster (602015) | more than 2 years ago | (#38927563)

And maybe the more experienced people indeed do have to consider lowering their sights.

Or maybe (just maybe) employers and government officials should stop stabbing them in the back ... because that is precisely what they've been doing. And as America's decline from the pre-eminent industrial power to another third-world outfit looking for a handout continues, you'll eventually begin to understand what I mean. Sometimes you do have to take care of your own.

Not Just Workers (5, Interesting)

Mikkeles (698461) | more than 2 years ago | (#38927035)

So if you're an employer who can hire a CEO fresh out of college who is making $60,000 versus an older wanker who is making $15,000,000 , and the younger MBA has skills that are fresher, who would you hire?

Re:Not Just Workers (4, Funny)

cosm (1072588) | more than 2 years ago | (#38927143)

So if you're an employer who can hire a CEO fresh out of college who is making $60,000 versus an older wanker who is making $15,000,000 , and the younger MBA has skills that are fresher, who would you hire?

Well normally we just hire the MBAs if they came from ivy league, double the CEO's pay, and outsource engineering to India and fabrication to China. Win-win for everybody, AMIRITE?

Re:Not Just Workers (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38927655)

Your +4 Funny comment just made me cry.

- and my captcha challenge was the word "profits" :(

Leading question. (5, Insightful)

forkfail (228161) | more than 2 years ago | (#38927039)

So if you're an employer who can hire a worker fresh out of college who is making $60,000 versus an older worker who is making $150,000, and the younger worker has skills that are fresher, who would you hire?

Fresher? Skills aren't vegetables. The older guy is also the wiser and more experienced. He knows the meta behind the skills, and what will work, and what won't. And if he's worth his titles, he has been constantly learning throughout his career. He knows how to be part of a team (even if he never grew into liking to "work with others"), and how to get things done.

The young guy is going to make a lot of mistakes. What he has is energy and drive, and fresh ideas. But too often, he'll work for 20 hours when an hour of thought would have led to a four hour solution that works better - a solution that would have occurred instantly to the old guy. He'll get the job done, but it won't have the eloquence that the older guy would have brought to the table. Many of his ideas will be naive, but through sheer force of will and energy, he'll make them work. But it'll be ten years before he has the experience to even come close to the depth and perception of the older engineer.

(Obviously, written by someone who's paid their dues for a couple of decades, and is still doing so.)

Re:Leading question. (5, Insightful)

Daniel Dvorkin (106857) | more than 2 years ago | (#38927121)

You know this. I know this. Most people on /. know this. Most people who actually do any meaningful work know this.

But the MBA class, the new nobility, who have thoroughly established their control over the corporate world and are doing their level best to take over other environments as well (the military, medicine, and academia are the places where I've seen it happening; I'm sure there are plenty of others) don't know this, or if they do, they don't care. To them, we're all peasants, and peasants don't have "skills." We're more or less interchangeable, and the only real distinction between us is that younger peasants will work for a smaller portion of scraps and take longer to drop dead in the fields.

Modded "Funny"?! WTF?! (1)

zidium (2550286) | more than 2 years ago | (#38927269)

Why the hell is this modded "Funny"?! It's very true on every level!

Re:Modded "Funny"?! WTF?! (1)

forkfail (228161) | more than 2 years ago | (#38927317)

Maybe it was one of those "laugh or weep" reactions...

Re:Leading question. (3, Insightful)

amiga3D (567632) | more than 2 years ago | (#38927279)

Sadly you've been moderated funny. I have no mod points but your comment is dead on insightful. This is exactly what is happening in the US. I remember when Made in the US meant so much, now it's no different from Made in China because the desire is to make money not products. The idea is to turn out cheap shitty products at a profit and sell extended warranties that cost more than the products themselves cost to produce. The days of a 15 year old washing machine are gone.

Re:Leading question. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38927285)

I'm surprised that a lot more American workers don't "go postal" on their managers.

Re:Leading question. (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38927389)

Agreed.

Which is why MBAs are second on my shit list next to lawyers. The third is Libertarians, since they are an amalgamation of the two.

Re:Leading question. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38927133)

if you were only interested in increasing headcount to increase billing to client, then fuck yeah you would hire the 60ke guy and bill for the 150ke guy - provided that it's a dead end project anyways and you'd need the guy to shut the fuck up too and not babble about how fucked up the whole project management is just before bonus payday.

and TI did some fuckups in 2009 period, so possible. think something like being on payroll to update some linux driver you're going to keep properiaty anyways and which you're using to lie about a hw feature being on the chip - and keeping him on client paid payroll for 18 months while waiting for the fab to come online - and one who possibly you'd need to get rid of after those 18 months too as the client stops paying, so a foreign worker on a visa is pretty easy and cheap for that and in the IT field you can always say that you can't find a local guy with just the right skillset, if someone asks just what skillset you can just say that you can't tell.

Re:Leading question. (5, Insightful)

usuallylost (2468686) | more than 2 years ago | (#38927179)

All to often management is willing to accept the mistakes new people are going to make simply because it helps the bottom line short term. You layoff an experienced engineer making $150,000 and replace him with a fresh out of college guy making $60,000. In the short term the manager cuts the cost of his division and looks more profitable. If they have costs later on because of some problem that the more experienced guy would have simply avoided so what. By the time that happens the manager who made the decision will have usually pocketed his bonuses and moved on. So it is the next guy who is suddenly stuck fixing whatever went wrong. From my point of view this is just more of the same MBA mentality that is one of the factors wrecking American business.

Re:Leading question. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38927349)

> The older guy is also the wiser and more experienced.

Experience only gives you an opportunity to learn, it doesn't mean that you actually learned anything.

Also stupid people don't become smart just because they get old.

Re:Leading question. (4, Insightful)

DerekLyons (302214) | more than 2 years ago | (#38927421)

Fresher? Skills aren't vegetables. The older guy is also the wiser and more experienced. He knows the meta behind the skills, and what will work, and what won't.

He also has a chance of having acquired bad habits and/or prejudices that are going to be harder to train out.
 

And if he's worth his titles, he has been constantly learning throughout his career. He knows how to be part of a team (even if he never grew into liking to "work with others"), and how to get things done.

Between the two quotes above and most of the unquoted remainder - it seems you really need to read about the "No True Scotsman [wikipedia.org] " fallacy.

On the campaign trail (1, Flamebait)

countertrolling (1585477) | more than 2 years ago | (#38927051)

He's trying to pull a fast one. Acting like he's all "concerned" and stuff. He should just remove the tax benefits from off-shoring, but that would only hurt the "contributors" to the party, so that's not gonna happen. The party will have none of that. Nothing but a little tear jerker for distraction purposes.

Re:On the campaign trail (4, Insightful)

foniksonik (573572) | more than 2 years ago | (#38927073)

That is what Obama asked for in his State of the Union. He can't do it on his own though, Congress must send him a new tax act to sign.

Re:On the campaign trail (1)

countertrolling (1585477) | more than 2 years ago | (#38927237)

Totally bogus. A single mention doesn't count in my book. He should be pushing for it like he did for his health insurance bailout program.

Re:On the campaign trail (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38927629)

You should be modded insightful.

The healthcare bill is totally a bailout for corporations which want to get out of having to pay healthcare for employees.

Obama is a shill for big business, plain and simple, bought and paid for by big media, Wall Street and the GE's (e.g. defense contractors) of the world.

Re:On the campaign trail (2)

tomhath (637240) | more than 2 years ago | (#38927239)

You can't just increase taxes and expect corporations to passively accept lower profit margins; they will respond. And the response will be to move all operations offshore and become a foreign company. Then you can try to recover the lost revenue and jobs by increasing tariffs, but there's a problem with that if the economy continues to spiral down the drain (with is would as the unemployment goes up). Like it or not the whole tax system is a balancing act.

Re:On the campaign trail (2, Informative)

countertrolling (1585477) | more than 2 years ago | (#38927293)

Their response would be to fund another candidate that won't step out of line. Obama will win because he carries their water better than any other right now, while his entire cabinet will end up working for Goldman Sachs, then maybe run for office themselves. It stinks to high heaven

Re:On the campaign trail (0)

Rockoon (1252108) | more than 2 years ago | (#38927393)

Indeed. Corporate taxation simply doesnt work out. At best you make American businesses less competitive, and at worst you turn them into offshore businesses.

We really need to move to a consumption tax, but that will never happen. Congress views taxes as a way to control behavior.

Re:On the campaign trail (2)

ScrewMaster (602015) | more than 2 years ago | (#38927613)

Actually, they're called "tariffs". We used to have them, China has them, Japan has them, Brazil has them. All intelligently-managed industrial nations have them, as a defensive measure against predatory foreign competition. Japan and China successfully lobbied to have our tariff structure destroyed, and they pretty much walked over us after that.

Re:On the campaign trail (1)

amiga3D (567632) | more than 2 years ago | (#38927327)

He's not going to sign any tax act that doesn't raise taxes and Congress isn't going to do that. It's called an impasse. The Republicans like off-shoring and the Democrats like raising taxes which combined pretty much destroys US run businesses (the few that are left).

Older Engineers Should Get Over Themselves (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38927063)

They can't find work because they demand higher salaries than they are worth. The $60k a year they pay fresh grads is still better than lifelong industrial workers get for much harder work. $150k is ridiculous. Try getting off you ass, then may you'll appreciate $60k a year for sitting down and crunching some numbers. Disclaimer: I've worked both types of jobs... Engineering is easy work if you have the mind for it.

Re:Older Engineers Should Get Over Themselves (1)

RightwingNutjob (1302813) | more than 2 years ago | (#38927273)

I've worked both types of jobs... Engineering is easy work if you have the mind for it.

That's the thing. There's a perception among older engineers (my opinion as a young engineer is that it has roots in reality) that most people don't have the mind for it, and many people who think they do have the mind for it in fact do not. So they can get away with claiming to work miracles and demanding six-figure salaries.

Re:Older Engineers Should Get Over Themselves (3, Interesting)

LynnwoodRooster (966895) | more than 2 years ago | (#38927631)

Yes, we old engineers are so greedy and lazy... I mean, I just hired on with a new company just 3 months ago, a grizzled 25 year veteran of consumer electronics design - and I demanded (and got) well beyond the $150K. Of course, in the first 2 months I've also identified a firm $2.5 million in annual savings, with a very small, zero-cost change to the production line. So yeah - some begrudge the high salary I command - but my new employer gladly pays it because I've already turned back 10X the savings.

what germany does/did (5, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38927071)

I have seen that Germany will require foreign visa holders to be paid some premium over the going rate. It may have been 5% or so. This ensures foreign visa holders are not economic replacements, but have a specific skill that is in short supply.

aslo add Germanys apprenticeships system to tech (1)

Joe_Dragon (2206452) | more than 2 years ago | (#38927283)

As then people coming out of school will have real skills and not just people who area cheaper and replace older works that and end up F*ing up as they don't know what they are doing and the people who do have to come back some times at X2 - X3 what they used to be paid to fix it.

The HB1 come for places where there is a lot more cheating in schools as well. Now with a real apprenticeships system that can fix that may letting people get tested in a real work place.

Re:what germany does/did (5, Interesting)

amiga3D (567632) | more than 2 years ago | (#38927355)

Now that's an idea I like. Force them to pay foreigners more than they would a US worker. Thus they don't have an incentive to hire foreigners unless the shortage is real and when the shortage goes away they'll hire US workers. No wonder Germany manages to continue to be successful even though the EU flounders.

Re:what germany does/did (3, Interesting)

St.Creed (853824) | more than 2 years ago | (#38927381)

In The Netherlands there is a minimum wage they have to earn to get a certain visum. This is a rather high salary, but for a skilled engineer it would be reasonable (about 1.5 times the median income). For random labor it would be way too high. So this ensures that you can get skilled labor, but not cheaper than local skilled labor.

Hiring ain't easy (1)

pntkl (2187764) | more than 2 years ago | (#38927087)

I think older people asking for higher pay than their younger counterparts, based on their experience, isn't necessarily simple math. I'd much rather have positions filled, relative to experience, based on the business need. Unless you're hiring a savant, a college graduate with no prior experience, is likely to need more time or training, depending on the task. Some graduates aren't even cut out for the task, and you won't know, until you try them. On the other hand, someone asking for a higher salary, with a nice CV/Resume and Letters of Recommendation--seems less likely to need as much hand holding. Unfortunately, in the real world, nothing is certain. Any way you go about it, hiring is a gamble. If you can't afford the risk, the lesser of the two evils, the lower income bracket, oftentimes does make more sense, at least to me.

Re:Hiring ain't easy (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38927229)

I applied for a job and at the interview I found the hiring manager worked out at the same gym. I did not get the job and told the guy after a workout that I had no hard feelings. I was his top choice but HR and his boss wanted someone 'fresh'. He hired someone one year out of college for 90% of what I had been asking. Three months later the new hire arrested for pounding on a significant other and could not bond out of jail. i got a call back from the HR department and re-interviewed. They hired TWO new college grads at 85% of what I had asked for in salary. I was still the hiring manager's top pick but his boss wanted someone willing to burn the midnight oil despite no track record on projects as the product was supposed to be 'fresh'. Within four months, one had quit as they did not like programming and the second got injured in a company softball game and was on disability for a back injury that eventually ended with the programmer on full time disability. HR called me again and asked my contracting rate and balked when I asked for twice what I wanted for a salary. "Why so much more?"

"My fee for dealing with idiots." (can you tell i did not want they job by then)

The hiring manager interrupted me the next morning at the gym and wanted to let me know the project was late, over budget, and probably going to be canceled. His boss was being eased out of his VP slot for someone 'fresh'.

I wished him luck with that as fresh worked so very well for them before. A few weeks later the hiring manager ended his gym membership as his company was going out of business despite the 'fresh' management.

Re:Hiring ain't easy (2)

El Torico (732160) | more than 2 years ago | (#38927345)

I wished him luck with that as fresh worked so very well for them before. A few weeks later the hiring manager ended his gym membership as his company was going out of business despite the 'fresh' management.

See, the market works! Yes, I'm being facetious, but only partially. The "hand of the free market" bitch slapped that company because of its incompetent management. Unfortunately, people got hurt in the process.

Re:Hiring ain't easy (1)

pntkl (2187764) | more than 2 years ago | (#38927501)

I think your signature says just as much as your comment. :D One-eyed Kings, in the Land of the Blind, are only slightly comfortable within their realm; when many lay in wait, to sever the King's head, and take their crown. In my experience, management can often be blind to the fact that IT geeks, although we love the work, we aren't slaves, robots, or indentured servants. In such cases, it's more like working for failure, than being one. I think AC did themselves a favor, in keeping their sights high. I've made the mistake of setting mine low. Admittedly, I pay for it; even to this day. I guess, at the very least, the resulting stress does a good job of making one feel alive, in the struggle to survive.

God is just (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38927103)

You get what you pay for. You earn what you get, one way or another.

If you marry someone much prettier, you will have a live of submission. If you take a job paid too much, they won't let you forget it. If you lie or cheat, you will get-in over your head. There is always justice. If you come from segregation, your world view might need an adjustment.

Re:God is just (1)

elrusoloco (737386) | more than 2 years ago | (#38927337)

You get what you pay for. You earn what you get, one way or another.

If you marry someone much prettier, you will have a live of submission. If you take a job paid too much, they won't let you forget it. If you lie or cheat, you will get-in over your head. There is always justice. If you come from segregation, your world view might need an adjustment.

Correction, you earn what you negotiate.

It depends... (1)

frisket (149522) | more than 2 years ago | (#38927131)

Sometimes if you want experience you're better off paying up for the older engineer.

Chicago way (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38927149)

The President can't help himself. He naturally gravitates to peddling influence, and missing the point entirely while "looking good for his sycophants".

JJ

Re:Chicago way (1)

ScrewMaster (602015) | more than 2 years ago | (#38927661)

and missing the point entirely while "looking good for his sycophants".

Looking good for his employers who, by the way, are not the American people.

Easy solution for the lazy fat americans (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38927169)

Spend less time whining on slashdot and more time working. Then, you won't have to worry about those hard-working, therefore evil, foreigners taking your jobs.

Prof's quote (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38927181)

If you're an employer who can hire a worker fresh out of college who is making $60,000 versus an older worker who is making $150,000, and the younger worker has skills that are fresher, who would you hire?

I had to go back and reread the quote, just so I could see what exec was stupid enough to have actually said that. Can't pass up on an opportunity to short a company that's headed for the dustbin.

And surprise, it wasn't even a exec. It was a college prof - a member of a profession known for it's keen business acumen and ability to thrive in the real world.

Give me a break. Those who can do, do. Those who can't, demonstrate it with every word out of their mouth.

Fresher skills? (5, Interesting)

hawguy (1600213) | more than 2 years ago | (#38927195)

What does "Fresher skills" even mean? The only skills I've seen someone fresh out of college have are coding skills. That's not the same as software development skills. That 45 year old developer that cut his teeth on C/C++ can pick up Ruby in a short time, but it's going to take the fresh college graduate years before he learns the skills he needs to work on a large development effort as a part of a team. Granted, there are exceptions to both rules. Sometimes the 45 year old doesn't want to learn anything new, and sometimes the college grad is some kind of programming god. But what I've usually seen happen is that the senior members of the team end up cleaning up after the junior members.

What is true, of course, is that the new college grad is often willing to work for more hours and less pay than the older guy. But then, the older guy never comes in hung over and rarely breaks his leg on a ski trip or while mountain biking (I've had both happen to 20-something year old employees). And he's less likely to job hop -- one thing managers tend to underestimate is the cost of losing an employee because of all of the institutional knowledge that leaves with them.

The best hiring decision I made was bringing in a 50 year old developer to work on a project that had been developed by our young, bright team. The project was becoming unmaintainable, bugs were adding up and the team was falling behind. The senior guy helped rearchitect the software to make it not only more maintainable, but more scalable - the newly designed product was more easily scaled horizontally and it needed about 30% less hardware to run. Th funny thing is that since we were competing with startups, we were paying some of the younger team members more than the more senior guy.

misunderstanding of TFA (4, Interesting)

lkcl (517947) | more than 2 years ago | (#38927201)

this is a misrepresentation of what President Barack Obama actually said. he said he would *investigate*, by putting this guy's resume in front of companies and ask them the pointed question of why such skilled engineers are not being prioritised for jobs. he didn't say "i'll find you a job".

what was actually much more stunning to my mind was the fact that it appears that the U.S. has a President who is willing to say "I Don't Know The Answer Right Now". he did it incredibly subtly: he said something along the lines of "this is very interesting and i too would like to find out what the answer is", which is just... it takes my breath away that he could be that sensible.

i thought politicians were supposed to be ignorant, arrogant and had to pretend to have all the answers - or at least to be intelligent enough to give the impression of being arrogant. although i fully appreciate that in the case of George W. Bush (jr), his ultra-low IQ means that he really was genuinely ignorant ["if the president of Ireland needs anything, anything at all, he only has to ask, now excuse me i gotta go get a burger"].

Re:misunderstanding of TFA (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38927387)

what was actually much more stunning to my mind was the fact that it appears that the U.S. has a President who is willing to say "I Don't Know The Answer Right Now". he did it incredibly subtly: he said something along the lines of "this is very interesting and i too would like to find out what the answer is", which is just... it takes my breath away that he could be that sensible.

Call me cynical, but despite the surface appearance of trying to do the right thing:

a) he may be smart enough that it's a calculated political move designed to win as many votes as possible (after all, he appears to have won your support based on a quick soundbite), and
b) it remains to be seen whether he's smart enough to see through the "creative" answers he's about to be handed by engineering company executives.

Re:misunderstanding of TFA (2)

LiENUS (207736) | more than 2 years ago | (#38927403)

"It's kind of an awesome experience to have somebody in the White House pushing for you to get a job," Wedel said. But "as much as it thrills me and our personal situation, it really doesn't help the average American that's in my same situation."

Re:misunderstanding of TFA (4, Insightful)

M. Baranczak (726671) | more than 2 years ago | (#38927471)

what was actually much more stunning to my mind was the fact that it appears that the U.S. has a President who is willing to say "I Don't Know The Answer Right Now".

I don't think that's what's happening. Obama's a lawyer. One of the first things they teach lawyers is: when examining a witness in court, don't ask a question unless you already know the answer. And in this case, the answer is pretty obvious: when those companies say that they can't find workers, what they really mean is that they can't find schmucks who'll work 60 hours a week for third-world wages. Obama just wants them to admit it publicly.

Either that, or he had to say something to get rid of the guy, and threw out some "we'll look into it" bullshit.

US election campaigns (1)

aaaaaaargh! (1150173) | more than 2 years ago | (#38927209)

WTF is wrong with US election campaigns? Are voters really that dumb to base their decisions on single cases like Joe the Plumber?

If this continues, there will soon only be professional actors at campaign events and the candidate that has most money to pay for actors will be the one who wins.

Re:US election campaigns (2)

M. Baranczak (726671) | more than 2 years ago | (#38927357)

Before you know it, we'll be electing an actor for President.

Re:US election campaigns (1)

St.Creed (853824) | more than 2 years ago | (#38927395)

Professional actors, like Ronald Reagan or Arnold Schwarzenegger?

single player health care will help as well (4)

Joe_Dragon (2206452) | more than 2 years ago | (#38927231)

As old people cost more to have health care.

Re:single player health care will help as well (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38927527)

US employers backed into offering health insurance as a way to get around wage freezes during WW2. They should realize that getting the federal government to take over that responsiblity (such as with a single-payer system, funded thru individual income taxes) would save them from the spiraling increases in the cost of health care. Instead they could afford to pay their employees more (covering their higher taxes) and/or be more competitive against foreign companies that don't have that expense.

i'm ok, you're not (2)

pinfall (2430412) | more than 2 years ago | (#38927233)

It's the new rage. We're all going to be fine even though only me and my pals are. You should hope for the best because me and my friends are hoping alongside you.

lol (2)

Charliemopps (1157495) | more than 2 years ago | (#38927259)

Clearly the president is totally out of touch with the Jobs situation... but I can understand the hiring companies point of view. I work on a team of 2... and my co-worker went out sick about 6months ago... I've been screwed ever since. Management finally decided that he might not be coming back so we started the interview process last week. We had 3 kinds of candidates: 1. Kids, currently in school, usually for the wrong thing with no practical experience. 2. Guy's with several masters degrees in multiple fields. Knew every programming language I'd ever heard of, had worked at Google, Apple, IBM, ATT, and every other hightech giant you could think of... but had been out of work for a year or more... and were asking a minimum of $150k. 3. Older people that only knew 2 or 3 languages, usually something like Cobol, show no interest in learning anything new despite our assurances that we'll pay for classes. I actually had one guy tell me "Oh I could do that (referring to an example I gave him of something I written) but I'd do it in Cobol." Well, we don't use that... no one here works on that... how are we supposed to maintain it? These guys still wanted $75k+ This is an entry level position... for someone with limited but at least some experience in a languages that are less that 20yrs old. If you've got 30 years of experience in languages left over from the 70's, well yea... there aren't jobs out there for that.

Then we have our interns from India. We asked one of them for help until we find someone and she said "Ok" went home, learned the relevant material over the weekend and came in Monday already swimming circles around me. Luckily for me the interns are very transient and never stay in one place for long. They're always looking for the better job, or going off to get married (their weddings are 2 month long deals) and the Job I have really needs someone that knows the inner workings of the company and how all our tables fit together.

Re:lol (4, Funny)

St.Creed (853824) | more than 2 years ago | (#38927407)

Then we have our interns from India. We asked one of them for help until we find someone and she said "Ok" went home, learned the relevant material over the weekend and came in Monday already swimming circles around me. Luckily for me the interns are very transient and never stay in one place for long. They're always looking for the better job, or going off to get married (their weddings are 2 month long deals) and the Job I have really needs someone that knows the inner workings of the company and how all our tables fit together.

I see a win-win if you propose to her :)

Kids, currently in school should be at a tech scho (1)

Joe_Dragon (2206452) | more than 2 years ago | (#38927449)

Kids, currently in school should be at a tech school or apprenticeship leering the right skills and not CS for learning usually for the wrong thing.

Re:lol (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38927567)

If you're interested in someone longer-term, please, provide a way to get in touch (I can't find any messaging through Slashdot), and I'll send along my resume, we can talk after that.

Management often doesn't even know what they have (1)

MikeRT (947531) | more than 2 years ago | (#38927263)

I have seen projects run like this and management literally does not understand that one set of skills may be absolutely meaningless compared to the older way of doing things if the experience delta is high enough. For example, you may have the freshest "hot skills," but the senior guy making 2.5x more can actually get the work done in a "fuddy duddy language" like Java or C# in substantially less time and under budget. When you do contract work, that's what matters. A typical customer doesn't give a rat's ass if you're some wunderkind with Ruby or PHP if they have to sacrifice either code quality or more money than by hiring a more seasoned developer with a very solid, but conservative skill set.

The true nature of the H1 B program. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38927275)

This exposes the true nature of the H1 B program. It is a lie that there is an engineer shortage in the US, we have tens of thousand of unemployed engineers right now. The H1 B program sole purpose is to destroy the domestic job force by bringing in cheap disposable foreign labor so that a higher rate of return on capital can be earned by the companies who have lobbied for this program. The H1 B program is destroying the tech industry and our middle class and should be gotten rid of immediately.

No Consequences (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38927291)

The real problem is that hiring less experienced engineers is always a win if the product can be shipped no matter whether it is ready or not and the costs are less. Even if problems surface later there are no consequences because it's impossible to prove that the problems would not have occurred with more experienced but costlier engineers. The pressure is to use cheaper engineers and not worry about quality in order to make the product ship dates. The only failure is the failure to get the product out the door. Now days most products are web products that are slapped together as quickly as possible and released so customers can test them. Get the functionality in place and worry about the bugs later because time to market is the critical element.

Hiring Manager Perspective (4, Informative)

coolioisay (2567387) | more than 2 years ago | (#38927295)

So, as a hiring manager, I would say most media views on this really miss the mark. Reduced wages is not what motivates H1-B support (at least in my experience), because there is typically a legal cost to the company in supporting that hire, especially if they decide they want to get a green card and your want to retain them. The reality is simply this: finding good people in the tech sector is very hard. You see many candidates who claim to have the skills, but when you test the candidate they frequently disappoint. When you finally find a candidate that you feel would be a fit for the position, you don't want anything to stand in the way of hiring them, like their visa status.

The (older == wiser) || (older == expensive) versus (younger == cheaper) debate is kind of misrepresented too. What it frequent turns out to be is (older == set in their ways) versus ( younger == eager to learn). Now I'll be the first to say I've hired older candidates that were eager to learn new things and their prior experience typically makes that process go much faster and smoother than for younger candidates. But (my perception of) reality is that "older and more experienced" candidates typically come to the interview looking to do what they know rather looking to grow. Maybe some employers like that, but tech companies tend to prefer people who will grow with the company.

Apples to Oranges (1)

Jeff1946 (944062) | more than 2 years ago | (#38927321)

What job has a salary range of 60,000 to 150,000? Look at the Federal Govt pay scale for the DFW area, http://www.opm.gov/oca/12tables/pdf/DFW.pdf [opm.gov] Note, you would see that a entry level engineer (no adv degree) is a GS-9 about 55,000 whereas a senior level manager, GS-15, pay tops out at about 150,000. Personally I doubt that a senior level manager could do the tasks assigned to the entry level engineer any better than the new hire, except of course design powerpoint slides. In really, the important senior level skills are cost, time and personnel management Not the same job at all.

Its not about expereince, its simply about costs (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#38927329)

When the decision is made to hire a younger vs. an older worker, it's simply about costs. the older workers want more money, the younger, often foreign worker will settle for less. Younger workers can work more hours too. They need less because the don't have families to support, and the come from places where the acceptable standards of living are far lower than ours. I find the skills problem to be more of an issue when screening for developers. most companies demand all sorts of very specific experience with one or another technology, without realizing that all of them are so similar that any good tech worker can learn them quickly. So, HR departments often screen out people who could be very good candidates.

The problem is, limiting the number of H1B visas to keep cheap labor out of us jobs doesn't and cannot work. foreign workers come in on other sorts of visas like L1, where the works is a foreigner working for a foreign company in an office on US soil. Further, the expensive, older tech worker can also be replaced by foreign workers on foreign soil through outsourcing. The real solution is to eliminate all of these restricted visas, and make it easier for tech talent to immigrate here, and can enter the market without restriction. H1B visas turn foreign tech workers into indentured servants.If they are instead allowed to become citizens, they will be able to change jobs more often and move up the skills and experience ladder to better pay sooner, thus close the pay gap between us and foreign workers. It also allow then to be better protected under US labor laws. Under H1B an employer can threaten a work with firing, which means being sent back to the country of origin.More smart younger tech workers coming here mean more new companies forming, and more jobs.

I dont get this. (3, Insightful)

unity100 (970058) | more than 2 years ago | (#38927369)

i dont get why you people complain about this, after subjecting yourself to, supporting, praising and furthering the capitalist system you have been living in through all these decades.

capitalist system seeks to maximize profits of the stakeholders. anyone who is not holding a stake, is expendable as long as s/he is replaceable.

huge short term gains at the cost of anything, enabled through 'deregulation' for the sake of free market is the epitome of this. if you just sit and evaluate this equation, you will find that anything is justifiable as long as it flies - from destruction of oceans to near-slavery. and the wealth amassed furthers the power of the wealth owner to turn everything from public (non)opinion to justice/law in their favor. its circular.

what did you expect in such an environment ? goodwill ? social responsibility ? decency ?

or, did you think that being a better, more experienced engineer (through age or other means) would increase your value ?

well, they just made society get used to accepting subpar products/services in everything, then they replaced you with those who would do shabbier jobs for cheaper......

in a dog eat dog society, you cant expect decency.

the ultimate end of this is, practical aristocracy/monarchy/empire with a seemingly 'democratic' storefront (late roman empire) and after the point society gets used to it, outright aristocracy/monarchy/empire (roman empire after octavianus).

Employee/Employment marketplace (2)

everydayotherday (1291642) | more than 2 years ago | (#38927399)

Don't employers attempt to negotiate salary requirements? If someone is currently unemployed is asking for 150k/yr might want to take 60k/yr given the choice between that and nothing. Would things be smoother if the Employee/Employment marketplace were more liquid?

So HOW is he not a republican? (2)

damn_registrars (1103043) | more than 2 years ago | (#38927405)

President lawnchair took the pro-big-business action that lead to this guy losing his job. Now he's giving lip service to the guy's predicament but not doing anything meaningful to help the rest of the millions of people who have lost their jobs under these three consecutive bush administration terms.

The only thing Obama accomplishes in this action is he helps secure his own reelection. There is not a single republican contender who would have done anything any differently, which makes it senseless and wasteful to vote for any of them to take over and keep doing the same exact shit.

Suck it up! (1)

Nullagain (2567389) | more than 2 years ago | (#38927409)

Shhhhh! They know where the bodies are buried.

Fallacy... (3, Interesting)

Lumpy (12016) | more than 2 years ago | (#38927427)

"So if you're an employer who can hire a worker fresh out of college who is making $60,000 versus an older worker who is making $150,000, and the younger worker has skills that are fresher, who would you hire?'"

the graduates skills are NOT fresher. i have never EVER met a new grad that had "fresher skills" than someone who has actually worked in the field for even just a few years.

Who are these very poorly educated hiring managers that actually believe that a recent grad has "fresher" skills? I buy the "we are chepskates" angle but no way in hell a grad knows even 1/10th of what a experienced professional knows about a field.

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