Chevy Volt Meets High Resistance, GM Suspends Sales 599
Hugh Pickens writes "The Hill reports that GM has announced to employees at one of its facilities that it is suspending production of the Chevy Volt for five weeks and temporarily laying off 1,300 employees. Back when GM launched the beleaguered electric car, it boldly targeted sales of 10,000 in 2011 and 60,000 in 2012 but GM only sold 7,671 Volts in 2011 and just 1,626 so far this year. 'We needed to maintain proper inventory and make sure that we continued to meet market demand,' says GM spokesman Chris Lee. 'We see positive trends, but we needed to make this market adjustment.' Although President Obama promised he would buy a Volt 'five years from now, when I'm not president anymore,' the Volt has come under criticism from Republicans in Congress because of reports of its batteries catching on fire during testing. Ironically, the shutdown comes as gas prices are soaring, exactly the time when an electric car should be an easy sell." If it's still true that GM was taking a loss on every Volt sold, perhaps this is a blessing in disguise.
Slashdot Suspending Editing (Score:5, Insightful)
Suspending production != Suspending sales. The two mean quite different things.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
It does mean there is barely any demand for the car, even compared to what they were hoping for.
Re:Slashdot Suspending Editing (Score:5, Insightful)
That's not the point, the point is that the headline is _FALSE_
GM is _NOT_ suspending Sales.
unbelievable sloppy editing here.
Re:Slashdot Suspending Editing (Score:5, Insightful)
Selling close to 8000 vehicles where your projections were 10000 isn't that far off the target, and not enough to call it 'barely any demand'.
Re: (Score:3)
Read again. It's 8K (precisely 7,671) out of 10K for 2011.
2012 is far from being finished.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
*Sigh*. Fine. Then using the linked article above, they sold almost 8k out of 10k for 2011(not bad) but only 1.6k out of 60k for 2012. Any way you look at it the numbers are disastrous. To argue otherwise is sticking your head in the sand and ignoring reality.
Re:Slashdot Suspending Editing (Score:4, Insightful)
could have something to do with the rediculous price for the thing. make it a $20k car, and then folks *might* consider it as opposed to a toyota' gas guzzling prius.
Re:Slashdot Suspending Editing (Score:5, Insightful)
Suspending production != Suspending sales. The two mean quite different things.
Very true. The sales number are low, and that's possible related to the cost of a Chevy Volt. I just did a quick search in my area and they're about $40,000. I'm never going to save $15k - $20k in gas over the life of the car, so buying a comparable car that runs on gasoline is probably a better value. There are some tax credits for buying an electric car, but even with those the price is still going to be far more than a "regular" car.
Re:Slashdot Suspending Editing (Score:5, Insightful)
If I had kharma points I would credit you. I am a fanboy of the Volt but it is out of my price range. There are a lot of hurdles to overcome with the car and they are not doing enough to make it attractive. If you live in an apartment or terrace, it is impractical etc.. If you have the ability it is still going to take some modifications like not everyone has power in the garage etc. So the overall cost is a big problem. I realise that this is an early concept and that prices will come down as people switch but I think that most people will agree with you.
Re:Slashdot Suspending Editing (Score:5, Insightful)
It's all about flexibility. Your Cruze's overall energy cost (electricity + gas) will be much higher than the Volt for regular commuting, since the Cruze can't run on electricity, whereas the Volt can do so for 30-40 miles, which is enough for most commuters. A true EV like the Leaf can go farther, but 1) the Leaf is slow as shit, and tiny too, and 2) once you run out of juice in the Leaf, you're dead. In the Volt, you just switch over to gasoline and keep going. Then when you run out of gas after 300 miles (not too far from a regular car's range), you pull into a gas station and refuel and keep going. You can't do that with a true EV; it's limited to local driving only. So the Volt gives you the option of taking long-distance trips once in a while, even though the economy isn't as good as some smaller cars.
So whether the car is for you depends on your usage pattern. If you mostly commute, but want the ability to take long-distance trips with the same car, it might be a good choice. If you just want to do a lot of long-distance driving, pick another car. If you want something for commuting only, and never plan to exceed 60-80 miles, then a Leaf might be a better choice. The main problem with the Volt as I see it is the price tag, which is $40k (but there's a $7500 federal tax credit too that you should take into account). However, Edmunds says the Leaf costs $35k (minus that same tax credit), so you're not saving that much going full-EV, and you're getting a smaller, slower car with probably a cheaper and more econobox-like interior (Edmunds says the Volt has the nicest and highest-quality interior they've seen in a Chevy). $35k is quite a lot for an economy car really. But the real one to beat is of course the Prius, which is downright reasonable at only $23k, though it doesn't have a plug-in option. There is a different Prius model just now coming out, with limited availability, that's a plug-in, but it costs $32k, a whopping $9k more than the regular version, though again the $7500 tax credit probably applies here; don't know if you can get that credit with the regular Prius but I doubt it.
Re: (Score:3)
Getting that $7,500 from the IRS requires that you owe that much to begin with. But I guess people who buy a $40K car do that.
Then when you run out of gas after 300 miles (not too far from a regular car's range), you pull into a gas station and refuel and keep going.
Volt runs on premium gas, and the mileage is only 37 mpg. You'd go bankrupt before you reach your destination.
There are several cars on the market, hybrid and not, that are better than that on highway, and they run on cheapest gas that th
Re:Slashdot Suspending Editing (Score:4, Informative)
It's a credit, not a deduction, so you get the $7500 regardless. Take my word as someone who bought a Leaf and is in the process of filling out the tax forms.
Re: (Score:3)
Take my word as someone who bought a Leaf and is in the process of filling out the tax forms.
If so, you owe Slashdot an extensive report about this Leaf thing once you get used to it and learn what it is good for :-)
Re:Slashdot Suspending Editing (Score:4, Insightful)
You addressed it, but I think you missed something: having a second car has its own costs. Now, instead of paying for insurance for one vehicle, you're paying double (no, the insurance companies don't give you a break for having a second car, even if you're a single person and are physically incapable of driving two cars simultaneously). You'll get a small, small break for one of the vehicles being "recreation only" with low miles/year, but it's still a lot more than only having one car. If one of the vehicles is really old and only has liability coverage, you'll get a good break for that, but then you're driving an old car; if you're looking at a Volt, presumably you want to drive around in a new car, not a 20-year-old one.
The tepid sales numbers are almost certainly IMO the result of the high price. For $8k less, you can get one of the new Plug-In Priuses that should have all the advantages of the Volt. The Priuses have been around for a while, and they've been selling like hotcakes, so clearly people want hybrids, they just don't want to pay $40k for them. Also clearly, many people want plug-in hybrids, because there's been a giant underground movement of Prius owner modifying their cars to be plug-ins (even with the puny battery the Prius has), which is the entire reason that Toyota finally made their own Plug-In version of the Prius (which presumably will be better done than the homebrew versions, probably with a larger battery pack).
Re:Slashdot Suspending Editing (Score:5, Interesting)
I'm never going to save $15k - $20k in gas over the life of the car, so buying a comparable car that runs on gasoline is probably a better value.
Lately I've been finding this argument a little disingenuous. For example, if I were to lease a $38K all-electric vehicle my payments would be roughly $360/mo. At $4/gal the money I'd save on gasoline would make my monthly payments comparable to leasing a vehicle worth $20K under identical terms*. In terms of affordability, these who vehicles would almost the same for the duration of the lease. And yes, I figured the cost of electricity as well as gasoline.
The cost difference manifests only in the residual cost, but I need not pay that if I decide not to buy out.
=Smidge=
*Your mileage may vary, of course.
Re:Slashdot Suspending Editing (Score:5, Insightful)
Not everyone leases vehicles though. I did once, and I'll never do it again. Tracking how many miles you can put on in a year and hoping you don't change jobs to somewhere further away is a PITA.
Re:Slashdot Suspending Editing (Score:4, Informative)
The Volt is not really a "38k" vehicle in standard vehicle terms of quality and fit and finish, it's a $20k vehicle with $18k batteries. For comparison, the Chevrolet Cruze, a non-electric car which is built on the same platform as the Volt, is a 20k vehicle.
You can lease a Cruze under similar terms as the Volt for $200/month less. So, yes, if you're spending $200 on gas and the electricity in your house is free, you pretty much break even. If you choose to buy instead of lease, $200/month over 36 months is comparable to the difference in depreciation between a 38K car and a 20K car. So you break even there too.
Either way, you have to drive at least 20k miles/year to spend ~$200/month in gas for it to be financially worthwhile to go with the Volt. And you're not driving a car of any better quality or fit and finish than a Cruze.
Re:Slashdot Suspending Editing (Score:5, Insightful)
Guess that explains why California is the most popular market for all-electric vehicles. Oh wait, no it doesn't...
To be on cost-per-mile par with $4.50/gal gasoline electricity would have to cost over $0.50 per kWh. (Comparing 30MPG to 3.5mi/kWh economies). Where in California are people paying north of $0.50 per kWh?
Once you've answered that we can discuss TOU metering schemes that actually make electricity for charging EVs cheaper than the nominal daytime rate.
=Smidge=
Re: (Score:3)
Re:Slashdot Suspending Editing (Score:5, Interesting)
You are absolutely correct that running the electric heater decreases drivable range. EV manufacturers and owners have employed various tactics to deal with this: Preheating the car while it's still plugged in is the primary one, which significantly decreases the load on the heating system. The Nissan LEAF comes with a heated steering wheel and heated seats to keep the driver and passenger(s) warm without heating the entire cabin. Some owners have tried 12V electric blankets, adding homebrew or aftermarket heating systems, or most often just dressing warmly for the trip.
But the real issue is not cabin heating, it's keeping the battery warm. A cold battery means lethargic chemistry, which means reduced power and (temporarily) lost capacity. This is the true nature of EVs in extreme climates.
Fun fact: If the Volt's computer deems it the most efficient method, the gas engine will run just to generate heat. What a waste IMHO...
=Smidge=
Re:Slashdot Suspending Editing (Score:5, Interesting)
No, my math is correct. Don't forget that if you lease, the dealer claims the $7,500 federal tax incentive (perhaps soon to be $10,000?) so that comes right off the top of the car's price. At that point you are no longer comparing $40K to $20K, you're comparing $32K to $20K. This makes ALL the difference.
So... assuming MSRP minus incentive for a gross capitalized cost of approx. $32,000. 36 month lease, 45% residual. Bullshit fees and tax paid up front, plus $4,000 down (total money down: ~$8,100). Monthly payment is $370/mo.
Based on the last 12 months of driving (9557.2 mi) and assuming $4/gallon + 28.88 MPG average over the past 12 months (yes, I keep detailed records), I would be saving about $110/mo. Based on mileage and electricity costs, I would be paying about $35/mo in electricity. Net savings of $75/mo which makes leasing this car comparable to $295/mo. Working backwards, with the same terms and down payment, that's equivalent to a $22,500 vehicle.
So I rounded off from memory instead of re-opening my spreadsheet and was off by $2,500. Sue me. *shrug*
You'll probably complain about the large money down sum. Fine, but it cuts both ways... How much I put down is irrelevant to the relative cost. Example: At $1,000 down the payments become $460 and $385 respectively - still a $75 difference.
I used a 0.00224 money factor and a 15,000 mile/yr lease if you want to try it at home. I'll be happy to compare notes.
=Smidge=
Re: (Score:3)
Re: (Score:3)
I've yet to hear of any anecdotes of this happening, though.
I'm pretty sure Nissan, in the case of the Leaf, said the tax credit was built into the price of the lease. So I could believe the same for the Volt. (Note that we bought our Leaf outright, so there is the possibility that I'm wrong.)
expected outcome (Score:4, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3)
Too expensive (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Too expensive (Score:4, Insightful)
Without significant subsidies GM would have sold even fewer cars. The subsidy is a just transfer payment to the well off. High efficiency diesel engines are probably the most cost effective option for the masses and our stupid EPA requirements keep best ones out of the USA.
Yes, it is quite stupid of the EPA to worry about nitrogen dioxide. The masses need cost-effective cars, not healthy lungs.
Re:Too expensive (Score:5, Interesting)
Probably because in Europe they actually use clean diesel fuel. All those EPA laws that resulted in smog reduction on cars were never applied to diesel, because of lobbying by the trucking industry. If you applied the same standards to diesel fuel as unleaded it would be plenty clean.
Re: (Score:3)
Re: (Score:3)
The mere fact it has a gas engine makes it a hybrid.
It's a serial hybrid, like a diesel-electric locomotive, rather than a parallel hybrid like the Prius and every other hybrid passenger vehicle on the road, but a hybrid nonetheless. it will never not need gasoline to operate properly: Even if you never exceed the all-electric range, it will burn gasoline.
GM's misguided attempt to redefine things is part of what is giving them problems. The early adopter, electric-vehicle-wanting crowd they are trying to se
No surprise (Score:5, Insightful)
I can buy TWO Ford Focus 40mpg cars for the same price as a Volt.
Unlike other districts, there are no subsidies for the Volt in Saskatchewan.
$20,000 buys a HELL of a lot of gasoline.
But does it work? [Re:No surprise] (Score:5, Funny)
I can buy TWO Ford Focus 40mpg cars for the same price as a Volt.
Wow, I haven't heard anybody else suggest that simple technique for getting 80 mpg.
Re:But does it work? [Re:No surprise] (Score:4, Funny)
I can buy TWO Ford Focus 40mpg cars for the same price as a Volt.
Wow, I haven't heard anybody else suggest that simple technique for getting 80 mpg.
Remember to connect them in series. If you connect them in parallel, you'll just get the 40mpg, but you can drive twice as fast.
Re: (Score:3)
You're neglecting to include the costs of electricity for the Volt and the fact that it actually uses gasoline on long trips and to run the heater (a big issue in Saskatchewan winters.)
The Volt does NOT have a run-rate cost of $0, so the total bill at the end of the 4-5 years I've been running on gas paid for by buying a cheaper car means you paid EVEN MORE to own and operate a Volt than the initial $40K.
If this is the best GM can do, the money bailing them out was a complete and utter waste, because t
Set up (capital) costs can be huge (Score:2)
So yes, a lot of things that are low volume but expected to sell later at a high volume can initially be sold at a loss without it being a total stuffup. Then of course you can have total stuffups where things are sold for less than the cost of the materials but that's rare.
A Joke (Score:5, Informative)
The Volt costs $40,000 before tax rebates and only gets you 35 miles on an electric charge. Then 35 MPG city/40 hwy (gas) for 375 miles.
The Toyota Prius starts at $24,000 and goes to $30,000 for their top end. Mileage is 51 MPG city/48 hwy for approximately 600 miles.
So Chevrolet's market was people who have lots of money, are willing to spend it with abandon, want a car, but don't really need to drive much. In short, semi-rich idiot hipsters.
I think they probably just saturated their customer base.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
So Chevrolet's market was people who have lots of money, are willing to spend it with abandon, want a car, but don't really need to drive much. In short, semi-rich idiot hipsters.
You forgot "willing to drive a car that looks like total dogshit". The Prius is ugly but it looks futuristic. The volt is ugly, and it's also ugly.
Prius Looks Green (Score:4, Interesting)
There are a lot of hybrids that look like normal cars (toyota camray, ford escape....).
I like hatchbacks, but the prius shape now screams I like the environment. It makes a statement which probably shouldn't be discounted as a reason people buy them.
Plus that shape is areodynamic, thus the honda insight looking almost the same
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Didn't we have an article here recently about the impact of innumeracy?
The problem with the Volt / Prius comparison is that it's not that simple. You've got to factor in operation costs. The Volt costs $0.90 less per mile to run on electric mode than the Prius. When the gasoline engine kicks in, the Volt costs $0.80 *more* per mile.
So the more affordable choice depends on what your transportation needs. Let's start somebody who is a ridiculously ideal Volt candidate. She uses her car to commute and run err
Re:A Joke (Score:5, Insightful)
Your numbers are way way way off. You probably missed a decimal point, it's $0.09 less (at best) per mile and not $0.90. Not counting maintenance and so on.
That changes your examples significantly.
Now your hypothetical ideal Volt candidate only saves $985.50 per year. And pays $20000 more for the car. In other words even the ideal user would lose money by buying a volt because they'd never make up the cost premium
So yes, the comparison is very simple. The Volt sucks and no one should buy one.
Re:A Joke (Score:5, Informative)
I work out of two offices, my primary one which is a 36 mile commute, and another regional office, which is an 84 mile commute. Generally I go to my primary office 4 days a week. In cold weather, I'm on the gas engine maybe 2 to 3 miles, but if it's warm I'm electric all the way. I'm on gas for about 44 miles on the longer commute.
I'm getting around 109mpg. Since early December, I've bought around $60 in gas. It's hard to tell due to the mild winter, but I think my electric bill has gone up around $25/mo.
Sure, I could have bought a cheaper car, and I'll never save enough in gas (well, unless Iran destabilizes the middle East and we end up with $10/gal gas) to recover my cost, but I actually like driving the Volt. It's not a sports car, but it's not sluggish either. 0-60 is 9.2 seconds, but the instant torque from the electric engine makes it feel much faster. In "Sport" mode, it does 0-30 in 3.0 seconds.
And it's made by Americans who seem to have figured out how to make a car that's as fun as any import I've owned. GM has plenty of problems, but maybe some of the cool Volt engineering will seep into their other cars.
Who would have guessed? (Score:5, Insightful)
Ohm I God! (Score:5, Funny)
Volt meets Resistance. I couldn't resist.
On a serious note, GM does not have a good record with respect to embracing effective change. Its management is still intellectually corrupt, except it is no longer led by executives who came up through sales/marketing and now has had government surrogates put in their places.
GM has never had a working grip on the obvious, and I'm old enough to remember when GM-made cars were more than half of the world's output. They no longer have a monopoly, nor the world's biggest dealer network, and only, apparently, one profitable brand of auto -- Cadillac.
So, as I told a friend who had inherited money in 2001 -- "Sell GM short. They're going down."
It's true again, How long must GM wait before it can return to the courts for relief?.
Re:Ohm I God! (Score:4, Funny)
Volt meets Resistance. I couldn't resist.
It's good that Slashdot is here to help us keep up on current events.
Re: (Score:3)
Watt?
So with 9297 Volts... (Score:4, Insightful)
Chevy Volt Meets High Resistance... (Score:3)
When an electric car should be an easy sell (Score:4, Interesting)
Until a huge breakthrough is made in battery technology, electric cars are doomed to fail, no matter how high the price of gasoline.
Electric cars are too expensive -- it's cheaper to just pay the high gasoline prices.
Electric cars have an extremely limited range and take too to charge -- people will pay for gasoline as a "convenience fee" to be able to go farther, faster.
And even if those two problems are somehow fixed, the elephant in the room, that everyone is desperately trying to ignore, is the enormous cost of replacing the batteries. A conventional gasoline engine, which proper maintenance can last a very long time. And if you do have problems, you can replace/rebuild/replace parts as needed. Worst case -- you can go to a local junk yard and buy a used engine for a few hundred dollars.
With batteries, there is no repair or rebuild or get a used one from a junk yard. Once the batteries reach the end of their life they have to be replaced at a very high cost. As a result, the re-sale value of an electric car is going to be pretty close to zero -- who would want to buy a used electric car knowing that they are guaranteed to get hit with a bill for several thousand dollars in the near future.
Where are the EEs? (Score:3)
SAAB (Score:3)
After how GM completely mishandled SAAB, and continue to mishandle SAAB in my hometown, I have no sympathy for them (but of course sympathy for the workers).
Bogus accounting (Score:3, Insightful)
If it's still true that GM was taking a loss on every Volt sold, perhaps this is a blessing in disguise.
This is because the beancounters have set too short a time for the RoI. Large-scale long-term investments like tooling up a car need a long-term RoI. A realistic term would be 15-20 years, given that the immediate product (the Volt) is likely going to have to go through numerous mutations before it settles on a money-making model. Expecting to make back the setup cost in a year or two means that the beancounters or VCs have lost all grasp on reality, if they even had it to start with.
Ohms Law? (Score:3)
This cannot be 'current' news.
> Chevy Volt Meets High Resistance, GM Suspends Sales
Two words (Score:5, Interesting)
Tesla Motors [teslamotors.com]
Telsa is planning on an ~$30,000 model in the next few years. If they achieve this price point and maintain the quality of their current models, I think that they will have an all electric car that many people will want
Everyone's missing the point of the Volt. (Score:4, Insightful)
The volt is a completely new class of car. It's a trailblazer. The first year is always a challenge.
You can't compare a Volt to a Prius or Leaf any more than you can compare a Corvette to a dump truck. Yes, they both have wheels, electric battery packs, and doors, but they are entirely different classes of vehicles.
The Prius is still largely a gasoline-only vehicle. Yes, the plug-in version is out this year, but it only gets you 8-11 miles, vs. the Volt's 30-40 miles. .
The Leaf is electric-only. For the vast majority of Americans, it's stuck as a second car because you can't practically road-trip in it with the current American infrastructure.
The Volt seeks to address these shortfalls.
It is the first production extended range electric vehicle. You cannot compare it to a Prius or Leaf, which are two different classes of vehicles altogether. The Prius's battery pack and electric range are only a fraction of the Volt's. The Leaf is just an electric car that requires charging stations. The Volt is actually engineered for the current infrastructure reality of the US - you can get gas everywhere, and you can only charge your car in so many locations, so it's a "crossover" vehicle that can let a broader class of folks adopt to a MOSTLY electric style of living.
GM knew full well going into the project that it was risky and it caters to a VERY specific audience of "Green Early Adopters" - folks that are willing to pay a premium for cutting their petroleum footprint.
If you don't like the Volt, you are obviously outside the target demographic. The Volt serves a lot of purposes outside of selling a EREV (Extended Range Electric Vehicle) - it also helps get actual production units to start building the battery production capabilities and infrastructure needed to sustain an electric vehicle fleet. Yes, the Prius has laid some inroads here, and the Volt is another push by another manufacturer.
If you study history at all, the Insight and the Prius were in very similar positions when they came out. Both were sold at low-to-no margins and had relatively crappy first-year sales.
The First Generation Honda Insight (the first mass-produced hybrid) only sold 17,000 units over several years.
The First Generation Prius was initially sold at low-to-no margins by
There is unanimous consensus among the engineering an scientific community that we need to reduce our petroleum usage. There is also a general consensus that an electric vehicle fleet is the most practical way of achieving this goal (and this includes fuel cells which are nothing more than expensive batteries).
Let the technology bake. The battery cost is rapidly falling. Get a few model years out. You may be pleasantly surprised. If it's outside of your budget, don't buy it. It's not for you anyway. You will still benefit from the technological advances of the vehicle. You can't afford a space shuttle but you still benefit from the fringe developments of that program. These types of projects are critical to the development of our electric vehicle infrastructure. You can't convert the American fleet to electric overnight anyway, the grid would have some major problems anyway with a million vehicles charging on it suddenly; they need a few years to get that upgraded. The Volt is the first step of many.
Re:Everyone's missing the point of the Volt. (Score:4, Interesting)
While I agree with most of your points I have to say that the Volt has missed it on quite a few fronts:
1) When you go to a Chevy dealer and you want to see one, good luck. They don't have any details, information or even cars for you to test drive. Some dealers in my area are now getting "Volt Specialists" who will work on answer questions but at the sales outlet I expect that I should be able to look, see and feel one.
2) There's been a lot of fraud regarding the Volt and the Gov't Tax incentives. Instead of buying a "new" volt, some people originally were purchasing one that had been cross sold to other dealers. [nlpc.org] Why would I want to deal with a dishonest dealer? No pun intended.
3) It's overpriced for what you get. A plug in Prius can be had for less and the Leaf is kicking the Volt's butt in sales.
4) I have two teenage sons now getting ready to drive (twins) and I'm looking for something economical and safe for them to drive. Electric, Hybrid or high mileage is something I would like to look at. Will I buy two? I don't know but if I don't fit a demographic where I'd at least like to know more and drive one to see, then I don't know what the target demographic is?
5) I can go to a Nissan dealer, touch a Leaf, drive a Leaf, get all of the information and I might add see all of the technical innovations that Volt doesn't have, for less money and I can still get my tax incentive because the dealer hasn't done a swap for the vehicle, negating any benefit I would receive.
6) I can go to a VW dealer and buy any of the blue diesel models that are ready, available and priced less than the Volt, Leaf and in some cases Prius and get better mileage overall. That's another alternative. So, have they all missed the target? No, but the Volt sure has.
Shilled Wikipedia page (Score:3)
What I can't find, is any objective truth there. Admittedly, no surprise, since I've never seen any wikipedia car entry that isn't so-obviously written by a fan, or the marketing dept of the manufacturer. The Volt's page was clearly written by someone with connections to GM. Just like so many other wikipedia pages. It's a complete waste of time using wikipedia for anything that has a fanbase, commercial interests, or political implications.
Just costs too much (Score:3)
The problem is the $40K price. We're still in a major recession.
Re: (Score:2)
Hyundai, BMW, Toyota, Honda, etc. all have plants in America. So we have those, at least. Apart from that, the coolest American car is probably the Tesla Roadster. Maybe a Jeep.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Hyundai, BMW, Toyota, Honda, etc. all have plants in America. So we have those, at least. Apart from that, the coolest American car is probably the Tesla Roadster. Maybe a Jeep.
With the globalization of the auto industry - like every other industry - and the consolidation of the parts makers (down to VDO, Bosch, Walbro, and a couple of others), more than likely those "American" cars are also, German, Japanese, Chinese, Korean, Swiss, English, Mexican, and Canadian.
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Kia is Hyundai.
No they aren't.
You are both PARTLY correct.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kia_Motors [wikipedia.org]
49.2% of Kia is held by a holding company named Hyundai Kia Automotive Group, a group of affiliated companies interconnected by complex shareholding arrangements, with Hyundai Motor Company regarded as the de facto representative of the Group.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyundai_Kia_Automotive_Group [wikipedia.org]
7671 (Score:5, Funny)
The lawyers saw this number and stopped production: a customer might get hurt and sue...
Simpler than that (Score:5, Insightful)
Less economical than a Prius
Not as good as a Prius
Costs more than a Prius
Buy a Prius.
To use a reverse car analogy, it's Motorola Xoom to iPad2.
Re:Simpler than that (Score:4, Insightful)
Buy a Yaris and actually save gas and money.
I know, I know (Score:3)
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It's pathetic how few vehicles get decent mileage. but this one will fit your adults and dog, http://www.cars.com/kia/soul/2012/ [cars.com]
Dunno if the Soul is any good but Kia has really come up
Re: (Score:3)
Jetta Sportwagon TDI comes to mind 30 / 42 city/hwy. The touareg TDI gets 19 / 28MPG city / hwy which isn't great, but isn't a hummer either.
Re: (Score:3)
THANK YOU. The simple truth is that we keep getting more and more powerful cars offered (and marketed) to us in the USA instead of more and more efficient cars.
Re:I know, I know (Score:4, Interesting)
"Cannot get 4 adults plus dog plus ancillaries in a Yaris."
Have multiple vehicles. I don't drive my F350 Ford or 366 big block Chevy truck unless I need to, but liability insurance is cheap and they are paid for.
Multiple vehicles allows selection of the right tool for the job.
Re:I know, I know (Score:5, Insightful)
"Cannot get 4 adults plus dog plus ancillaries in a Yaris."
Have multiple vehicles. I don't drive my F350 Ford or 366 big block Chevy truck unless I need to, but liability insurance is cheap and they are paid for.
Multiple vehicles allows selection of the right tool for the job.
Or rent what you need when you need it. We have a small car which we mainly use for commuting. When we need something bigger or with more cargo space (like a pickup), we rent from the city carshare program or a regular car rental agency which has surprisingly good weekend rates since they have a glut of cars from business travelers). The city carshare program is especially nice when I have to work late unexpectedly, they have cheap overnight rates and there are several locations within easy walking distance from work so I've always been able to get a car when I need it, even last minute. The overnight car rental rate is cheaper than it would cost to take a cab home.
Our occasional car rental bill is much lower than our car payment would be on a second car.
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"Our occasional car rental bill is much lower than our car payment would be on a second car."
I buy used vehicles for cash and run liability insurance. Requires saving and shopping, but I save far more by not going into debt.
The "tears" of buying non-new vehicles were easily wiped away with the deed to my home, which I paid off early by eschewing new car debt!
Re:Simpler than that (Score:5, Interesting)
This!
Hybrids are all the rage. But they really aren't that green. Batteries use metals that can be difficult to obtain and energy intensive to produce. They take far too long to recharge. And then they don't last. Pure electric would be the way to go if we had decent batteries, by which I mean batteries that approach the convenience of the humble gas tank. So we have this hybrid approach which uses both gas and electricity in combination. And it still needs a bit of battery capacity. All the expense, trouble and weight of both kinds of drive in one package!
As if battery troubles aren't bad enough, a conventional gas powered direct drive vehicle is quite capable of beating the fuel economy of a hybrid. There's lots of low hanging fruit that manufacturers are still ignoring. They are finally improving transmissions, putting in more gears and dumping that huge, huge waste of gas known as the torque converter. Took them long enough, and there's plenty more. Aerodynamics could so easily be much better. Instant on/off for the gas engine would save big time, and erase the one big advantage hybrids do have: the better city fuel economy. Put up with bad batteries, and then not even get better fuel economy?!
The Yaris is a start, but it is only a start.
Re:Simpler than that (Score:4, Informative)
Hybrids are all the rage. But they really aren't that green. Batteries use metals that can be difficult to obtain and energy intensive to produce. They take far too long to recharge. And then they don't last. Pure electric would be the way to go if we had decent batteries, by which I mean batteries that approach the convenience of the humble gas tank. So we have this hybrid approach which uses both gas and electricity in combination. And it still needs a bit of battery capacity. All the expense, trouble and weight of both kinds of drive in one package!
As if battery troubles aren't bad enough, a conventional gas powered direct drive vehicle is quite capable of beating the fuel economy of a hybrid. There's lots of low hanging fruit that manufacturers are still ignoring. They are finally improving transmissions, putting in more gears and dumping that huge, huge waste of gas known as the torque converter. Took them long enough, and there's plenty more. Aerodynamics could so easily be much better. Instant on/off for the gas engine would save big time, and erase the one big advantage hybrids do have: the better city fuel economy. Put up with bad batteries, and then not even get better fuel economy?!
There's so much hybrid misinformation and hate out there...
The NiMH batteries are highly recyclable and are very reliable (my hybrid has a 10-year/150,000-mile warranty on the battery). Yes, a car that you plan to keep for 20 years is likely to need a battery replacement; these are often taken from totaled vehicles at a significantly reduced cost compared to a new battery, and total costs are no more expensive than the expected maintenance for a non-hybrid of similar age.
Plug-in hybrids are great, because you can charge them whenever you have the opportunity, but you don't need to. The Prius plug-in can be recharged in under 3 hours from a regular 120V outlet, or in 90 minutes from a 240-volt outlet. And if you can't recharge, you still get 50 mpg. Obviously, plug-ins with a longer range need longer to recharge. Pure EVs are good for some people, but not all. They're often a reasonable choice for a family's second car, so they still have one car that can be used for road trips. Alternately, some people realize that the frequency of needing to drive 100+ miles at a time is low enough that they can just rent a car.
If a conventional commercial gas vehicle can beat a commercial hybrid, why don't they? Instant on/off is a start, sure, but doesn't buy a huge amount of fuel economy. It also requires a beefier 12V battery and a bigger alternator/starter motor. On a hybrid, there doesn't have to be a separate alternator/starter motor; it can just use the same electric motor it uses for propulsion. And city economy isn't just bad because of idling; a huge amount of energy is wasted in braking. How often do you accelerate from a red light, just in time to hit the next red light? In my area, because the lights are not timed, that happens to me all the time. Timing the lights to each other would help, but is impossible to do on every street. Most cities do it on one or two major roads (I've heard all of San Francisco has only 6 timed streets). So any time you brake, you're wasting huge amounts of energy, unless you can recover that somehow. That's what hybrids do.
Hybrids aren't perfect, but given today's technology, they're often one of the better choices. When the day comes that vehicles can all drive themselves (and be programmed to do so efficiently, and communicate with each other), it would be very possible to make a conventional vehicle that meets the current economy of hybrids, and we can revisit this topic.
Re:Simpler than that (Score:5, Insightful)
You can't compare the Volt to the Prius. Reviewers who do so are technically incompetent and dishonest.
If you go by just putting gas in the thing, then yes, the Prius comes out favorably. If you compare a Corvette to a minivan by how many passengers you can haul in it, yes, it sucks.
You're not supposed to regularly put gas in the Volt. If you are, you're using it wrong.
The Prius is a gasoline-only hybrid (ignoring the new short-range plug-in version this year which only goes 8-11 miles on a charge or half a typical commute). The Volt is an extended-range electric vehicle.
The Volt is a new class of vehicle. You plug it in regularly, and ideally you almost never put any gas in it. The Prius doesn't do that.
So if you don't want to plug in your car and you want to keep using gas, yes, buy that Prius.
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The power-generator should have been a seperate pluggable module so one could swap it out for a hydrocarbon or pure hydrogen fuel-cell later. Or, even with something completely unknown at this time. A micro-turbine generator would be fun.
It was really disappointing to learn they used an insane gearbox solution.
What I really want is a car based on th
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They actually went right with this solution.
The planetary drive is actually really similar to the Prius gearbox and is quite an elegant proven solution. It allows for higher efficiency when running in the gas-only discharged state (since you are avoiding an unnecessary mechanical->electrical->mechanical energy conversion), and also doubles as a CVT so you lose your manual-gear-select transmission and save lots of weight. Weight is your #1 killer for efficiency. You also get higher peak performance as
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
That comparison will become more realistic when the Prius Plug-In comes to market this year. And it will become a complicated comparison. The Prius Plug-In has a rather short electric-only range (11 miles vs. 35 miles in the Volt as measured by EPS, according to Wikipedia). So
-if you daily commute is short enough that the 11 miles will do, you can compare by price and consumption of electric power. Neither car will need fuel.
-if you drive more than 11 miles per day, but have the option to recharge over nigh
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Ford is the second best selling car brand in europe.
Re:Japan and Europe is where the industry is (Score:5, Funny)
Hollywood and Predator drones, so watch your fuckin' mouth.
Re:Japan and Europe is where the industry is (Score:5, Informative)
That's good enough for me to call it American.
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I just bought an American made car last week, a Honda Odyssey. It tells you on the window sticker these days where stuff was made. Assembled in Lincoln, Alabama USA. Engine constructed in USA, Transmission constructed in USA. 70% of all parts for it come from the USA, 15% from Japan, and the rest from "other". That's good enough for me to call it American.
Following your reasoning, an iPhone could be considered as a Chinese (or Brazilian) phone...
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Reminds me of the time some old lady chastised me for taking jobs away from American autoworkers.
"Look ma'am, my Honda was built in here in the USA. Where was your Ford built again, Mexico?"
Re:Japan and Europe is where the industry is (Score:5, Informative)
Aren't Fords made in the US ?
The ford focus is quite a nice and fairly popular car.
As far as I know, the mk1 Focus was developed/built in Europe in 1998, and then Ford US built it in 2000, too, with some changes. The mk2 Focus was developed independently in Europe/US (US model was very different from Europe model and only a restyled mk1). The mk3 Focus was a joint development between Ford US and Europe, and is built both in US and Europe. So the Focus is not really a good example of a good car developed solely in the US.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Japan and Europe is where the industry is (Score:4)
Re:Japan and Europe is where the industry is (Score:5, Interesting)
Last time I went to a auto show, they had the then-new Ferrari 575.
I waved the sales guy over from beyond the velvet rope (the unwashed crowds not being allowed to mix with the "real" customers) and asked him "how much is a 100,000 kilometer service on one of those things?"
the reply?
"none of our vehicles /ever/ do that many kilometers."
Delivered with just the right amount of "how dare you even THINK about driving your Ferrari that much? For shame, sir. FOR SHAME." sneering.
Re: (Score:3)
This guy has a nice analysis of why it costs over $6 per mile to drive his Lamborghini:
http://supercarrentalsinc.com/lamborghini-gallardo-buyers-guide-part-v-ownership-cost-estimate/ [supercarrentalsinc.com]
Of course, if you drive more, you'll bring the cost per mile down.
Re: (Score:3)
This guy has a nice analysis of why it costs over $6 per mile to drive his Lamborghini:
http://supercarrentalsinc.com/lamborghini-gallardo-buyers-guide-part-v-ownership-cost-estimate/ [supercarrentalsinc.com]
Of course, if you drive more, you'll bring the cost per mile down.
Buying a high-performance sports car for everyday driving is like using an F-22 Raptor instead of a Jumbo jet for commuting. Or, like marrying a supermodel instead of a normal woman.
Of course it isn't going to be cost effective or reliable! But you have significantly more performance at your command.
You aren't spending your money properly if you don't use (or at least appreciate) the extra performance and complain then about the cost.
Re:Japan and Europe is where the industry is (Score:5, Insightful)
My 2003 Monte Carlo has 220,000 miles on it. I did choose to replace the motor and trans (both used) at 200,000 miles though instead of rebuilding the trans when the pressure control solenoid gave out and repair would have cost as much as the replacement motor and trans together, so those only have around 72K on them. Runs like a dream and by the condition of the interior and exterior you would never know this car had anywhere near 100K miles much less 220,000. Any car from the "big three" built within the past 20 years that is worth buying these days can go 300,000 miles with basic maintenance. Cars were garbage in the 80's and I think a lot of the mentality around longevity in the US these days is still based on experiences with those cars.
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My definition of "reliable" and yours clearly differ by a very large margin. Fords are cheap. When they break, they just buy another one for the fleet. And police departments use them because they're what Ford offers with the "enforcer" engines. It's not the same ones you get in stock CV's.
I admit I had abnormally bad luck. But the engine
Re: (Score:3)
GM brakes are absolutely garbage. My dad and brother had the misfortune to buy year 2000+ GMs thinking they got a good deal. They have had to change or turn their brakes once every 2 years and they put Half the K's on that I do. I change my brakes on my Mazda once every 6-7 years and my Nissan only because I get gravel in the pads.
I guess this proves the point that selling cars does not necessarily mean you understand cars.
Disk brakes are designed to be easy to maintain at the expense of requiring routine maintenance (pads) at relatively frequent intervals.
GM uses the same brake calipers and rotors and pads as everyone else. They don't make their brake parts, any more than anyone else does. US makers tend to use TRW, in Europe it's Bosch and a few others, in Japan it's probably Nippondenso. All the engineers do is open up those p
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How many engines have you gone through to get to that point?
I can't say for AC, but I've got 225k on my 1996 Ford F150 on its original engine -> 4.9L straight six. Most reliable gasoline engine ever built, IMHO. Of course, Ford stopped building it after 1996...
Re: (Score:3)
1) Hybrids do get better gas mileage.
2) The second law of thermodynamics does not claim that all engines are equally efficient. It only says that when you use an inefficient engine, the energy goes somewhere; up in smoke, converted to vibrations/sound, extra heat that didn't move the piston with any extra force, etc, etc. You seem to understand this in the context of waste heat, but in the context of a hybrid car you get all wacky.
Re:EV1 lovers are MIA (Score:5, Insightful)
The do, and people do.
I don't live in the US any more, but I'm hardly unique (ie, there are people like me still there) who would really love to go electric since our driving patterns are ideally suited to having a small, quiet, economical electric car that you recharge at night at home. (DISCLAIMER: yes, I'm aware, you need to tow your boat from LA to NYC every 2 days while simultaneously carrying 8 people and their luggage and there are no charging stations on route... electric cars useless for everyone etc etc, no possible use case etc etc...)
However, the current economics aren't making them viable - they're just too expensive at the moment but it's a chicken and egg problem since it's early generation tech and in low initial demand.
Don't mistake slow sales of a very expensive electric vehicle as definitive proof of a lack of interest. When (if?) I can buy one for a similar cost (also factoring in fuel costs) to the 2 litre turbodiesel minivan I drive right now (53 mpg EU / 44.1 mpg US) that can easily haul 5 adults and luggage then I am sure sales will pick right up. Cracking that early adopter and economy of scale problem is not easy though. Bear in mind that I also pay around $8 per gallon for diesel in the UK and it's still cheaper than going all-electric right now (or even to hybrid).
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But with the leaf, you range is 80 miles PERIOD. If you get caught out and run out of charge, you're screwed. if you want to take a road-trip that is longer, you're screwed.
The Volt is no-compromise. Drive just like any other car, without worries. Go any distance. Refuel anywhere you need to (gas or electric).
That peace of mind and freedom of movement and convenience is definitely worth a premium over something like a Leaf, which has a very limited practical use.
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I would love an electric car. If I total the car I currently have, I will definitely buy an electric to replace it. But the Volt really turns me off. It has bucket seats my aged parents couldn't in and out of without pain. It has less glass than I would want. It's made by GM, who have showed us time and time again that they couldn't find their ass with both hands. And it has an internal combustion engine I'd have to haul around but never use.
I have a Scion Xb. If I could find something like it -- up
Re:EV1 lovers are MIA (Score:5, Informative)
While Volts sit in dealer's lots gathering dust,
I went to the local GM dealer, and while they had one, they said it wasn't for sale. And if I wanted to buy one I'd be put on almost a year long waiting list. He basically said they were near impossible to get so dont bother right now.
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Plug in hybrids make a lot of sense in the USA. Out West it can be 200 miles between towns. Until and unless every gas station also has a battery-pack-exchange facility (I give you my empty pack, you give me a charged one for a fee), cars with a 60 mile range are not so practical.
There's a large chunk of potential car buyers who would look at the specs of a pure electric car with even a 100 mile range and say "Wait, so I can drive this in the LA area, the SF area, and the Boston-DC corridor, and that's it?
Re:make them look pretty (Score:4, Informative)
the only reason the Tesla got any attention at all was because it looked like a sporty Lotus!,
had it looked like the current crop of retarded looking square boxes and it wouldn't of batted an eyelid.
That is because the roadster is just a Lotus Elise with batteries and electric motors.
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If you're going to be running on gas often enough that the Volt compares to the Prius in miles-per-gallon, the Volt isn't for you.