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Wine 1.4 Released

Unknown Lamer posted more than 2 years ago | from the windows-into-wine dept.

Wine 168

vinn writes "Wine 1.4 was released today and includes support for a wide range of applications, including Office 2010. There are some major architectural changes, including a built-in DIB engine for better graphics display and a new audio stack designed around the newer Vista / Win 7 system and integrated into the native audio system. Almost every other subsystem received substantial updates, including Direct3D, the Gecko-based web browsing components, and better internationalization. The release notes contain more detail and you can download the source code now, or wait for packages to appear soon."

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First Wine Post (5, Funny)

GameboyRMH (1153867) | more than 2 years ago | (#39276665)

Full bodied with a distinct Windowsy flavor.

Re:First Wine Post (1)

ByOhTek (1181381) | more than 2 years ago | (#39276707)

You mean it tastes like glass? But I don't want to have my throat sliced up by broken glass!

That being said, anything that can keep me in FreeBSD more, and Windows 7 less, without losing the programs I like, is a good thing.

Re:First Wine Post (3, Funny)

Nutria (679911) | more than 2 years ago | (#39277479)

But I don't want to have my throat sliced up by broken glass!

Wah, wah! Baby wants a Zima!

Re:First Wine Post (4, Interesting)

hairyfeet (841228) | more than 2 years ago | (#39278355)

What's wrong with Win 7? While I can't stand Metro, thought Vista was too damned buggy, and hated the Fisher Price UI of WinXP I'd have to say I find Win 7 to be VERY nice, right up there with my beloved XP X64 and Win2K. How we lived without breadcrumbs and jumplists is beyond me, going back to any previous version now feels like going back to Win9x as losing those features really sucks.

Speaking of Win9X are they still working on a Windows version? I heard rumors a couple of years back and the one thing I miss about XP was its great Win9X support for old games. How good is Wine on its DirectX 6/7/8 support? Can it run the more PITA games like Mechwarrior 3 and i76? I really miss those games but I always end up with the "jumping bug" on MW3 and i76 has some serious timing issues if you aren't running a single core or running below 2GHz. Has anyone cooked up a "Wine in a box" LiveCD for gaming so one doesn't have to install a whole OS just to run it? How good is its hardware acceleration? I haven't had a chance to run it since I sold my dual boot XP/Xandros laptop in 09 so I'm a little behind here. Is its support for the older stuff better than XP?

Re:First Wine Post (2, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#39279229)

What's wrong with Win 7?

You have to click on something to scroll it, no always on top menu item (even though th OS supports it), no tabbed file browsing, window title text looks terrible, the list goes on. basically a whole host of minor annoyances that really add up

Re:First Wine Post (2)

nschubach (922175) | more than 2 years ago | (#39279369)

I just need to put something out here:

I freaking hate breadcrumbs ... I enjoyed how the old Explorer used to automatically open the tree folders to the current folder (and now that's a half implemented option... and there are no more tree lines!) As a programmer, I find myself frequently in the depths of large trees of code and it's nice to be able to simply copy/paste between working branches and trunks for code when needed. Without the tree view auto-navigating and the lines it makes finding the appropriate folder at a glance a royal PITA. The only thing breadcrumbs would help(if I could call it that) in those cases would be switching between branches, but then I'd still have to navigate back down into the children to get the folder I needed, every time. I could keep two windows open, but that's just not needed if the tree view functionality wasn't astronomically gimped in native Windows 7. I also enjoyed being able to just double click on a path in the address bar and get a quick copy of the folder name I clicked on. Now you have to CTR-L to get the raw address instead of the stupid breadcrumb... (luckily ClassicShell came along and reverted some of this cruft for me.)

Ugh, I don't know how anyone can work with breadcrumbs. Sorry.

Re:First Wine Post (1)

pnutjam (523990) | more than 2 years ago | (#39279891)

I agree, breadcrumbs suck!

Re:First Wine Post (1)

GameboyRMH (1153867) | more than 2 years ago | (#39280499)

Aw damn I was hoping to go back and play MW3 and i76 on my Win7 gaming PC. I have an old XP computer converted to a VM that I can run OpenGL games on.

If the problem with i76 is similar to the problem with WipeoutXL and Shipwreckers, it's tied to the CPU speed and the only thing that can help is a CPU slowdown utility.

Re:First Wine Post (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#39281107)

Ugh. Quick overview of what's sort of a Catch22 collection for circa 2000+ classic gaming.

W98 is pretty frigging awesome for AGP board support. These are the last vidcards with support - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GeForce_6_Series [wikipedia.org] , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radeon_R420 [wikipedia.org] . After that, the 'wall' with 98 is memory management. 98 can handle more than 2 gigs, but will seldom access it. Much worse, management is /horrible/ so your game gets awful lags while 98 stumbles to clear the big RAM you're using for your big-map game. 98 will play a lot of great games, but later ones with lots of extras that it should be able to, no.

So fine, you go to XP for what's essentially a stable 98 with great memory management, and even later vid card support. Except XP has that 'phone home' install problem to combat piracy. It also gets in the way every time you upgrade the box. XP is dead; it's not an OS you can keep going forever on old hardware, unless you've got basically your first XP computer still, and it's already got awesome specs, and it is immortal. XP was the first "subscription" Windows, and it's over.

So, Win7, right? Nope. Haven't got backward compatibility. Not for what's wanted to play here.

Then your idea: let's get a compatible going on Linux. Ha. Linux has /never/ had the 3d vid driver support even 98 did. Worse, as the kernel moves on, the drivers are updated, and more legacy cards stop working. So you go back to trying Win. Start at the top to proceed with this loop.

There's more to it and other people keep trying to figure a few ways to worm around to skin this cat with some success, but that's an overview you should be aware of.

Re:First Wine Post (5, Funny)

Tyrannosaur (2485772) | more than 2 years ago | (#39281355)

What's wrong with Win 7?

It can't run on Linux

Re:First Wine Post (3, Funny)

Tyrannosaur (2485772) | more than 2 years ago | (#39281367)

EDIT: It can't run on *my* Linux. I'm still on a Pentium 4 :'(

Re:First Wine Post (1)

redneckmother (1664119) | more than 2 years ago | (#39281099)

You mean it tastes like glass? But I don't want to have my throat sliced up by broken glass!

That being said, anything that can keep me in FreeBSD more, and Windows 7 less, without losing the programs I like, is a good thing.

s/gl//

:-)

Re:First Wine Post (1, Funny)

sconeu (64226) | more than 2 years ago | (#39276739)

An impertinent little release, with a bold, fruity taste.

Re:First Wine Post (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#39277079)

It's made in San Francisco?

How to tell if vintages are good. (2)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#39276835)

How to tell if WINE vintages are good:

The weather for that year: were the programmers working in enough darkness? Did they get too much sunlight?

Soil: Did the program get developed on a recent Linux distro?

Food: Did the programmers get enough coffee, colas, pizza and beer? VERY IMPORTANT.

If the programmers were put on a strict vegan diet while working in a tropical environment and spending their free time on the beach, well you might as well just have a Windows machine.

Re:How to tell if vintages are good. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#39277057)

How to tell if WINE vintages are good:

The weather for that year: were the programmers working in enough darkness? Did they get too much sunlight?

Soil: Did the program get developed on a recent Linux distro?

Food: Did the programmers get enough coffee, colas, pizza and beer? VERY IMPORTANT.

If the programmers were put on a strict vegan diet while working in a tropical environment and spending their free time on the beach, well you might as well just have a Windows machine.

Don't forget to properly store it for proper aging. Test it along the way and when properly aged, decant and serve properly with appropriate accompaniments. Else all you will have is wine vinegar. In short,,,you need the right amount of time in the basement/cellar..

Sadly the Debian bins are still at rc3 (4, Insightful)

G3ckoG33k (647276) | more than 2 years ago | (#39276717)

Sadly the Debian bins are still at rc3 - http://www.winehq.org/download/debian [winehq.org]

Still, thank you all for the fantastic project called Wine!

Re:Sadly the Debian bins are still at rc3 (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#39276759)

Indeed - although it has to be said that wine is particularly easy to build from source, even for ubunt^M^M not-so-savy tech users :-)

Re:Sadly the Debian bins are still at rc3 (5, Insightful)

CubicleZombie (2590497) | more than 2 years ago | (#39277163)

Indeed - although it has to be said that wine is particularly easy to build from source, even for ubunt^M^M not-so-savy tech users :-)

I've been using Linux for 14 years, professionally for 12, and I now refuse to build anything from source. It was fun at the beginning, but now I need things to just work.

Re:Sadly the Debian bins are still at rc3 (3, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#39279439)

Indeed - although it has to be said that wine is particularly easy to build from source, even for ubunt^M^M not-so-savy tech users :-)

I've been using Linux for 14 years, professionally for 12, and I now refuse to build anything from source. It was fun at the beginning, but now I need things to just work.

Oddly enough "needing things to work" is why I compile something from source on an almost daily basis... If you are going to be working anywhere even within walking distance of the bleeding edge you will be needing (and possibly developing) the latest tools and drivers. You will not find them in the "stable" binary repository.

Re:Sadly the Debian bins are still at rc3 (1)

Maquis196 (535256) | more than 2 years ago | (#39276947)

A good way to use wine is to build from source and build into /usr/local/wine-$winever-vanilla, point a symlink from /usr/local/wine/ to whatever version you want and add /usr/local/wine/bin to your path.

Very very good for hunting down regressions and not worrying about your package manager, also don't forget to build wine with ccache! ("CC=ccache gcc") to really help with build times, especially if you want to use a patch.

Re:Sadly the Debian bins are still at rc3 (4, Informative)

impaledsunset (1337701) | more than 2 years ago | (#39277041)

Debian hasn't packaged 1.2 yet, these are third-party packages.

http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=585409 [debian.org]

Apparently one of the issues why the newer versions can't be packaged is that the maintainer wants to package and upload all versions between the last one and 1.4 in order. Since nobody has the time to do so, there isn't any progress towards packaging the newer ones.

Re:Sadly the Debian bins are still at rc3 (1)

G3ckoG33k (647276) | more than 2 years ago | (#39277547)

This is why I linked to Kai's page, as he is the one who has been the reliable source for Wine.

Re:Sadly the Debian bins are still at rc3 (1)

Ranguvar (1924024) | more than 2 years ago | (#39277287)

It's been less than two hours since 1.4.

Give them time!

the last rc version was rc6. (1)

G3ckoG33k (647276) | more than 2 years ago | (#39277515)

the last rc version was 1.4-rc6 before this 1.4

Quit wining (0)

stevegee58 (1179505) | more than 2 years ago | (#39276741)

It's unbecoming.

Blast from the past (5, Interesting)

Picass0 (147474) | more than 2 years ago | (#39276775)

It's truthfully been ages since I've thought about Wine.

Question directed at Wine users - how does it stack up against VMware, Virtualbox or the other virtual machine servers?

Re:Blast from the past (4, Informative)

Cornwallis (1188489) | more than 2 years ago | (#39276843)

i've been using it within Fedora and Mint with Office 2003 and Photoshop (and previously with Dreamweaver) and had no problems. I would say my experience is that the applications have been running faster than under Virtualbox - which I do use for testing builds on a fairly regular basis. YMMV.

Re:Blast from the past (5, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#39276851)

Those need a Windows license. Wine doesn't.

Re:Blast from the past (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#39276929)

Well, you can install a ReactOS image, or maybe a Linux+Wine image, or you can run a Windows image without a bloody license (would ya believe them pirates find ways to do that?) -- you hardly need a Windows license.

Re:Blast from the past (2)

unixisc (2429386) | more than 2 years ago | (#39277215)

Once ReactOS is actually a complete OS, one can run it in place of Windows in the first place, and not have to worry about Windows 8 or more importantly, Windows eXPiry. But ReactOS does have to be completed first.

Re:Blast from the past (1)

gangien (151940) | more than 2 years ago | (#39278831)

Slightly off topic, but I wonder why react OS doesn't switch to using kde as a window manager. you would think that would free them up from having to do a lot of the crap that they spend their time on. But maybe i'm wrong.

Code sharing (5, Informative)

DrYak (748999) | more than 2 years ago | (#39279093)

The ReactOS and the Wine project share a lot of code [reactos.org] (most of the userspace libraries. Consider ReactOS as a Wine userland + WinNT-like kernel). So therefore, the day ReactOS is actually a complete OS that can run 100% of windows software, is also the day that Wine can run all the Windows software too.

Re:Blast from the past (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#39279839)

That's a but big enough for an elephant.

Re:Blast from the past (2)

Fallingwater (1465567) | more than 2 years ago | (#39277199)

I believe you mean "those need a Windows OS to be installed and maintained". No virtual Windows machine I've ever seen hasn't had the gentle attention of an activator. Or been installed from a preactivated all-versions torrent.

Re:Blast from the past (1, Interesting)

Narcocide (102829) | more than 2 years ago | (#39276859)

Much faster for 3d-intensive gaming, and with less resource usage... when it works, that is.

Re:Blast from the past (3, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#39276895)

how does it stack up against VMware, Virtualbox or the other virtual machine servers?

That's a little like asking how the Toyota Prius stacks up against a Boeing 727. While technically both are able to get you from Boston to New York, they have completely different use cases.

Virtual machine servers are intended to run an entire alternate operating system (under which you can run whatever applications you want). Wine, on the other hand, is intended to allow you to run Windows programs *without having Windows at all*.

Re:Blast from the past (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#39276899)

Well, let's see. VirtualBox, VMWare, etc. are virtualization layers, emulating a computer inside a computer. Whereas, Wine is not an emulator.

On a more useful note: I can play harware accelerated openGL games with Wine but the VirtualBox hardware accelerated OpenGL drivers suck ass. Not so sure about VMWare in that regard.

Re:Blast from the past (3, Informative)

Creepy (93888) | more than 2 years ago | (#39278723)

VirtualBox and VMware emulators are a type called pass-through emulation, which actually only emulates a small amount of functionality of the system (mainly drivers) and the rest is all native, so the performance hit is generally trivial. At most you should see about a 20% hit in CPU here (as long as you aren't memory bound - WINE shouldn't chew up as much memory as a VM, generally). If the GPU is hardware accelerated and properly passed through, there should be almost no hit unless the drivers for that platform are particularly bad.

WINE is a native implementation of the Windows APIs, so if an API isn't implemented, it crashes and burns. Also it actually has the same problem as VMs in regards to devices - they need to be implemented or they won't work and in the case of WINE, very few are. OTOH, WINE can use all graphics memory if used with DX or OpenGL and most VMs share an amount of it (VirtualBox I think is up to 256M now, but my card has 1GB). Likewise emulators usually are assigned some of your CPUs and WINE can use all of them.

  When I have VirtualBox properly set up, I get two frames less in Linux running in the emulator than I did in native Windows, so I suspect your VM isn't running with hardware accelerated drivers. With VirtualBox you also need to turn off the native mouse pointer to use OpenGL with hardware acceleration or you spin like crazy (or it will start driving for you in 2D), so if you have the native pointer on and aren't spinning, you aren't in native OpenGL, which requires installing the VirtualBox extensions and the native hardware driver. If your hardware acceleration was properly set up, how much video memory did the OpenGL program consume?

Re:Blast from the past (2, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#39276909)

It's truthfully been ages since I've thought about Wine.

Question directed at Wine users - how does it stack up against VMware, Virtualbox or the other virtual machine servers?

Depends. If you need something that "just works" most of the time, you're probably going to want to do a virtual machine. The problems though can be extensive, namely in terms of performance. Games, for example, typically run like boiled crap in a VM. However, some stuff works okay that way, even if it's a rather ham-fisted way to do it (why virtualize an entire machine if all I need is Outlook?).

Wine still has its quriks but the performance it gives is substantially better (quick bench: World of Warcraft in a VM versus Wine...wine hands-down, every single day of the week for years on end). It's also rather nice these days with quite a few things either working out of the box or requiring fairly simple tweaks to make work. And if you're lazy Codeweavers' CrossOver line is still fantastic.

Re:Blast from the past (4, Interesting)

Geeky (90998) | more than 2 years ago | (#39276915)

Same here. When I used Linux regularly I eventually switched to VMWare for running Windows, as Wine didn't really cut it (probably talking about ten years ago, though...).

Eventually I realised that I was spending 90% of my time using either a web browser or a Windows applications (Photoshop and Lightroom) and I might as well run Windows on the bare metal. With tools like Cygwin and LAMP I have most of what I'd miss from Linux, so I guess I've done it the other way round; made Windows more like Linux rather than Linux more like Windows.

Re:Blast from the past (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#39277189)

My migration, like many others', went the other way. As *NIX software became better and more compatible, I found myself booting Windows less and less often. Firefox made a huge difference, the Open/Star Office, then mplayer, soon I realized that I only had one or two reasons to boot windows any more. Wine has filled in all the remaining holes, it now works with every piece of Win software I still use (maybe 10 or 12 older programs), except one. I have exactly one reason to keep a Windows license, and it's a piece of software every company associated with Microsoft would love to kill : AnyDVD [slysoft.com] .

Re:Blast from the past (1)

MonsterTrimble (1205334) | more than 2 years ago | (#39277543)

Have you considered DeVeDe [rastersoft.com] ? I use to to build custom ISOs using whatever.

Re:Blast from the past (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#39280295)

AnyDVD and DeVeDe do not look like they do the same thing. Seems like a nice enough suite of software, but building a data image to PUT onto optical media. How very 80s.

Re:Blast from the past (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#39281331)

DVDFab runs very well in wine on Linux. I highly recommend it.

Re:Blast from the past (2)

Maquis196 (535256) | more than 2 years ago | (#39276917)

Comparing wine to a full system emulator is your first mistake. It's more akin to running things in a chroot then an emulator. Performance wise it's great as long as the program you are using works perfectly.

I'm a super admin very a couple of dozen games on the appdb with ratings between garbage and platinum and the truth is that nowadays I'm disappointed where wine doesn't run something out the box. It's older games that it struggles with, for instance RAGE worked out the box for me yet something like Starfleet Command 3 doesn't work at all.

If it works, wine is as quick as running something natively. I've never played Eve online on windows for instance, I have no need to. I wouldn't do anything mission critical with it though, don't let the stable tag fool you.

-Maq

Re:Blast from the past (1)

Progman3K (515744) | more than 2 years ago | (#39277365)

I hear you. I would so love if Wine could run Rogue Squadron... But even on Windows, that game was a little too peculiar.

Haven't tried running it in years, now.

One really pleasant surprise was being invited to a LAN party and installing Counterstrike. Its performance was flawless.

Cheers to the Wine developers!

Great, sometimes (5, Informative)

brunes69 (86786) | more than 2 years ago | (#39276927)

When Wine works well, it is far superior to running the app in a VM, for a number of reasons

- Performance - When an app runs well under Wine, it runs as fast as it does under Windows on the same machine, or sometimes it runs even faster. Running under a VM is never as fast as running native on the same hardware.

- Desktop integration - When an app is installed under Wine, it automatically integrates with your GNOME/KDE desktop... the application is available in the menu, same window manager, etc. Yes there are solutions for this under VMs like VMWare Fusion, but it is not as clean and frankly usually is buggy as all get out.

When an app runs in Wine well, I prefer to run it that way over a VM. VMs are much better though to be sure the app is running the exact way it was meant to run.

Re:Great, sometimes (1)

DuckDodgers (541817) | more than 2 years ago | (#39277383)

Wine won't run some games as well because the nVidia and especially ATI/AMD graphics card drivers for Linux aren't as good as the ones for Windows. The performance difference is something you can live with, but if you want to squeeze the most visual beauty out of your expensive video card you'll have to do it under Windows.

Re:Great, sometimes (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#39277601)

Don't discount it though: Starcraft 2 (for instance) works wonderfully under Wine.

Re:Great, sometimes (1)

binarylarry (1338699) | more than 2 years ago | (#39277837)

I play SC2 in wine but I wouldn't call it wonderful. You have to play it at the lowest settings to get decent graphics performance.

Not to knock the devs, it's amazing the d3d->opengl translation layer works as well as it does.

Re:Blast from the past (1)

larry bagina (561269) | more than 2 years ago | (#39276933)

WINE Is Not an Emulator. It's a reimplementation of the win32 libraries, so win32 applications run without windows. Like a KDE application running in GNOME. Virtual machines will be more accurate/compatible since they're virtualizing the entire windows stack, but they're running within a box.

Also, if you have some legacy win32 source code, you can compile it with the WINE libs for a native application.

Re:Blast from the past (3, Interesting)

Blaskowicz (634489) | more than 2 years ago | (#39276989)

you get working 3D acceleration. never got that to run under Virtualbox even though you only have to check a box, and somehow other people have it working. your I/O is not slow and CPU hungry it seems. but compatibility is still hit or miss - I'm talking about games mainly. my wine 1.3.28 just crapped at running return to castle wolfenstein and even with warcraft III I have stuttering sound. but I should update my 1.3 via ppa.

my great plan is to switch to IOMMU virtualisation, running presumably Xen. a physical graphics card will be passed-thru to a windows gaming-only VM. but I need new hardware (an asrock mobo with 970 chipset, I will go from 2GB ddr2 to 8GB ddr3). I also fear that it may be a pain in the ass and ill supported, and needing a VGA switch or a KVM.

Re:Blast from the past (2)

domatic (1128127) | more than 2 years ago | (#39279025)

There are native Linux binaries for RtCW. You don't have to run that one in Wine.

Re:Blast from the past (2)

somenickname (1270442) | more than 2 years ago | (#39279143)

The Xen + IOMMU setup is what I use and it works great once you get it setup. Hardware selection is the key to making it less painful to setup. Specifically, if you try to use an nVidia card as the passthrough card, you are in for a world of pain but, an ATI 6800 series is essentially an out of the box experience once you configure the bootloader to block the device from dom0. You'll also need to be careful which distro you use. The Debian flavor of distros do an awesome job of setting up grub to do the Xen magic so, something like Xubuntu 12.04 (haven't tried this setup on 11.10) should be ideal once it's released but, if you use something like Debian 6, you'll end up needing to get Xen 4.1 and a newer kernel (3.1+) to support the PCI passthrough backend. Both of those things are pretty simple to do if you know you need to do them beforehand.

Once you get the basics setup, you'll probably want to pass a few other PCI devices through. If you buy a cheap PCI USB controller, you can pass that through to the VM and then use a KVM to switch between Linux and Windows. If you have a crazy enough motherboard (or secondary cards), you can also passthrough things like one of your onboard NICs and my motherboard even has an LSI SAS controller that passes through just fine (you can't use it for boot devices but, RAID0 WD Raptors run at native speeds in the VM).

It sounds like a big hassle to setup and, if you are going at it completely blind, it definitely is but, once you get it setup, it's rock solid, native performance and no real upkeep at all. I've played things like Dragon Age II and Skyrim at max settings at 1920x1080 and had literally no problems.

Re:Blast from the past (1)

timothyb89 (1259272) | more than 2 years ago | (#39277031)

When it works, it's far better. Even with decent hardware virtualization is too slow for a lot of apps. VMware is slower than anything but has reasonable 3D support, while VirtualBox is fast but can only reliably run 2D apps. Neither is really an optimal setup for things like gaming.

When Wine works, though, it runs pretty darn fast and generally doesn't cause too many issues. It's really rare for me to find a game that isn't compatible anymore. The last I couldn't run that comes to mind is League of Legends, but it seems that within the last week since I checked there's been a new workaround that fixes it.

Overall, Wine is considerably more capable than it used to be. I generally don't even have to question whether most apps will run anymore, because the answer is, more often than not, "yes".

Re:Blast from the past (1)

Hatta (162192) | more than 2 years ago | (#39277139)

No contest. If it works in Wine, it's far nicer to use under Wine. VMs are a lot more compatible, because they run the entire OS, but it doesn't integrate as nicely as Wine does. When you run a program with Wine, you're running a native program just using winelib instead of win32.

Re:Blast from the past (2)

GameboyRMH (1153867) | more than 2 years ago | (#39277443)

Most of the things you'd want Windows for (DirectX games) don't work any better in a VM than in Wine anyway (in fact a lot of code has been shared back and forth between Wine and VirtualBox), so VMs rarely have an advantage in terms of app compatibility.

Re:Blast from the past (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#39277161)

Wine Is Not an Emulator.

Re:Blast from the past (2)

hobarrera (2008506) | more than 2 years ago | (#39277213)

It's not a virtual machine, it's a reimplementation of the windows API.

That aside, I play last-gen games (like the Mass Effect 3 Demo) with great performance. That's imposible inside any VM.

Re:Blast from the past (1)

formfeed (703859) | more than 2 years ago | (#39277559)

Question directed at Wine users - how does it stack up against VMware, Virtualbox or the other virtual machine servers?

Virtualbox works for sure, wine sometimes.

But on the other hand, if you have an application that does work under wine, it is quite nice. It opens almost immediately, much faster than starting virtualbox, and often it can be integrated into your desktop. You can change settings according to application and have it kind of integrated into your desktop: It starts and doesn't look stranger than a java app.

Re:Blast from the past (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#39277677)

Stacks up great... when playing Windows games :-)
Deus Ex (the original), Tomb Raider Anniversary, GTA: San Andreas, Half Life 2, Portal, Portal 2..

Re:Blast from the past (2)

k31bang (672440) | more than 2 years ago | (#39277709)

Question directed at Wine users - how does it stack up against VMware, Virtualbox or the other virtual machine servers?

I can run Photoshop CS4 in wine with no major issues. I had been using Virtuabox before that, and I found the performance to be better with wine. (This was with an Athlon XP 1.4 GHz + 1256 megs of ram with Linux Mint)

Re:Blast from the past (2)

DragonWriter (970822) | more than 2 years ago | (#39278519)

Question directed at Wine users - how does it stack up against VMware, Virtualbox or the other virtual machine servers?

Its approximately infinitely better if you want to use software designed for Windows without actually purchasing or pirating Windows.

On the other hand, its worse than Windows-in-a-VM if you want to test how something runs under Windows.

Re:Blast from the past (1)

Darinbob (1142669) | more than 2 years ago | (#39279371)

VMware is big and bulky, it runs the entire machine inside an emulator. You install Windows inside the emulator. You can use VMware on machines with different architectures. Wine does not work that way, it uses the native processor and it emulates Windows through libraries and DLLs. So it's a lot less overhead. Ie, you'd be very hard pressed to get good game performance out of VMware but people do use Wine for games a lot.

Re:Blast from the past (1)

nurb432 (527695) | more than 2 years ago | (#39279725)

How does it compare to vmware? Huh? Those are different tools to solve different problems and work differently.

Why not compare iPads to cars too?

Re:Blast from the past (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#39279913)

You are being disingenuous. They are difference tools and take different strategies, but they solve very similar problems.

Hitler's reaction to Wine (1)

Blaskowicz (634489) | more than 2 years ago | (#39276925)

Der Führer has a love/hate relationship with it!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lcvkbrwDuaY [youtube.com]

Re:Hitler's reaction to Wine (1)

GameboyRMH (1153867) | more than 2 years ago | (#39277699)

adolf@reichsbox:~$: mv .wine wine_bak; sudo apt-get remove --purge wine; sudo apt-get install wine

Or alternatively "cp -pR .wine wine_bak" before screwing around with winetricks.

Re:Hitler's reaction to Wine (2)

SiChemist (575005) | more than 2 years ago | (#39281523)

I just run every app in its own separate bottle. I have this alias in my .bashrc:

alias bottle='export WINEARCH=win32 WINEPREFIX=`pwd` && winecfg'

I open a terminal, CD in the directory that I want my windows program to go into and then type 'bottle'. It opens the winecfg panel and I make any adjustments needed. Then I run the installer from that terminal. Everything else is automagic. Program shortcuts are created with the appropriate env WINEPREFIX="blahblah" and work perfectly. As long as you set the appropriate WINEPREFIX, you can mess around with wine settings for that program to your heart's content without affecting any other programs in different prefixes.

Not sure how useful now. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#39276999)

With fast machines, loads of ram and virtual machines I am not sure what the point of wine is anymore. Fifteen or ten years ago yes but now? If I want to play a game I open up Win XP or Win 7 in parallels or fusion. Anything really heavy (that I suspect wine could not deal with) then bootcamp does the job. Great effort and kudos to the people who have produced it of course.

Wine is $200 cheaper (5, Informative)

tepples (727027) | more than 2 years ago | (#39277071)

With fast machines, loads of ram and virtual machines I am not sure what the point of wine is anymore.

You still to buy a $200 copy of retail Windows for the Mac or home-built desktop PC on which you run Windows inside a virtual machine. Xubuntu + Wine is cheaper than Windows, and Mac OS X + Wine is cheaper than Mac OS X + Windows.

Re:Wine is $200 cheaper (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#39277261)

Fair point I guess. To me cost is not a barrier. I have a job to do and or a game I want to play then I prefer something that just works. I used Linux from the SLS distribution which was in about 1992 and had fun along the way. Now I just want an appliance that works and will pay what it takes. Must be getting old.

Re:Wine is $200 cheaper (5, Interesting)

Urza9814 (883915) | more than 2 years ago | (#39277451)

It depends on what you're doing with it. I used to play World of Warcraft, and I actually found I could get better performance under Wine on Linux than under Windows (NOT in a VM.) And something like WoW in a virtual machine? Not gonna happen. For office apps and such, a VM will probably work fine, but for any kind of gaming, I've even found noticable lag on a 2.5GHz quad-core machine with 4 gigs of RAM running a game made for Windows 98. Wine just performs better. Plus with a VM you run into issues with keyboard/mouse capture -- you don't want to accidentally hit the capture key in the middle of a WoW raid. Or if you're using host integration so there is no capture key, sometimes the mouse won't capture right and you'll run it right through the edge of the screen or something...

I haven't used Wine in a while; I'm mostly using VMs because what I need these things for now is testing apps in various environments, which Wine can't really do -- but with all the problems I've had with VMs (mostly VirtualBox, some VMWare), I can't imagine any situation in which I would ever choose to use a VM when Wine would do the job.

Re:Wine is $200 cheaper (1)

phorm (591458) | more than 2 years ago | (#39278673)

Let me guess, a slightly older laptop?

I found that wine similarly kicked butt over my windows machine, which was mostly due to the laptop manufacturer not updating nVidia drivers, and nVidia's windows drivers not necessarily working well.
The Linux install had newer drivers that performed much *better*

Re:Wine is $200 cheaper (1)

Urza9814 (883915) | more than 2 years ago | (#39279753)

Nope, Desktop, it was a few months old at the time, which was probably around two years ago.

Re:Wine is $200 cheaper (1)

Roogna (9643) | more than 2 years ago | (#39280149)

While I agree that whenever possible something like Wine is preferable to running Windows in a VM. I would like to point out that this stuff about VM's not being useable for gaming is pretty out-of-date. I've run many recent releases, including SW:TOR in a VM on my year old laptop just fine. At playable frame rates. WoW I don't bother with since it has a native Mac client, but there is really nothing stopping someone these days.

Re:Wine is $200 cheaper (1)

Rakarra (112805) | more than 2 years ago | (#39281695)

and I actually found I could get better performance under Wine on Linux than under Windows

I assure you, you're not in the majority there. For a little while, performance was pretty decent, but on my fairly new computer with top-of-the-line video card currently, performance drops down to almost-unbearable (less than 10-fps) in raid finder raids unless I turn every single video setting down to its minimum. This was also the case in Burning Crusade, but the game was quite playable in large groups in Wrath and I thought Cata as well.

My frustration with WoW under Wine is that OpenGL is treated as "good enough," while DirectX support for the client is very very rocky. This is unfortunate because for about five years now Blizzard has been making very few improvements to the OpenGL engine, and using OpenGL disables all the prettier improvements like realistic shadow, good-looking water, and sunshafts.

And yeah, I've found VMs (mostly using VirtualBox, but some VMWare too) to be insufficient for... well, for most things I'd want, graphically. The performance was too poor when I tried playing Silverlight and Flash videos awhile back.

Re:Wine is $200 cheaper (2)

phorm (591458) | more than 2 years ago | (#39278627)

For LAN parties, I have a PXE server with various games built in that run via wine (also a component which manages which serial keys are in-use at a given time).

There were some initial wrangles getting the Nvidia/ATI blobs to install-on-demand, but with that running it's quite nice. I wouldn't be able to do quite the same thing with VirtualBox/VMware, not to mention the network overhead of loading a full VM image (each app has its own wine directory, so only the necessary files for that app are needed, plus there are no conflicts)

Re:Wine is $200 cheaper (1)

pnutjam (523990) | more than 2 years ago | (#39279861)

I'd love to get more information about how you are doing this.

Re:Not sure how useful now. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#39277089)

Seriously. I didn't even realize Wine was still being developed.

Re:Not sure how useful now. (1)

hobarrera (2008506) | more than 2 years ago | (#39277221)

It's usefull because I don't have to buy windows (simply because I don't want to), and because I have far better integration.

Re:Not sure how useful now. (2)

timothyb89 (1259272) | more than 2 years ago | (#39277231)

Unless you're exclusively playing Solitaire, you're probably not going to be able to play most games in a virtual machine, at least on a Linux host. I have a Windows XP VM that I run in both VirtualBox and VMware, and I've had very limited success playing games in either. VirtualBox can barely handle 3D graphics at all (though its support has improved significantly in the last couple of years), and VMware's acceleration, while significantly more stable, is awfully slow.

Unless the situation is for some reason better on OS X, bootcamp is probably the only reasonable solution. Parallels likely wouldn't be any better than just using Wine, considering it uses Wine's Direct3D libraries.

Alternatively, of course, you can just use wine - which works so commonly now that there's really no reason to waste your system resources with the overhead cost of a virtual machine. Even when system resources aren't an issue, VMs are never as fast as native code, and for that reason alone are a poor choice.

Re:Not sure how useful now. (1)

silanea (1241518) | more than 2 years ago | (#39277269)

Wine differs significantly from a virtual machine:
  • You do not need a Windows license. Windows 7 Home Premium starts at 57 € for OEM/system builder, 124 € for retail version. Professional and Ultimate go for around 200 €.
  • A VM is a full operating system, so it needs drivers, updates etc., in addition to updates for the applications you want to run. Under Wine you only have to deal with the latter yourself, the rest is handled by your distro's automatic updater.
  • Integrating a VM seamlessly into your desktop is quite a hurdle and can only go so far in my experience. Under Wine my applications are almost native. Sharing files and doing other magic works transparently and without much manual intervention.

Wine does have its flaws, and many applications are a lost cause. But my experience so far has been that if it works, it rocks.

What I want to know (1)

morgauxo (974071) | more than 2 years ago | (#39277333)

How does the new audio system affect multiple soundcard support? Is it improved?

Which apps? (3, Interesting)

unixisc (2429386) | more than 2 years ago | (#39277475)

Better question I can think of - which Windows apps does one want to run under Linux/BSD? Office? IE? Chrysis? I checked out 2 versions of Minesweeper - one under Wine, and one native in Linux. Preferred the native one. Of course, if I prefer Office 2003 to Calligra Suite (I still find Office 2007 a pain to work w/), I might prefer Wine. Maybe QuickBooks could use Wine? That's one of the few apps I can think of that doesn't have a good replacement in Linux.

But honestly, I think a lot of apps could use a WABI like approach. In the past, they suffered, but the main reason for that was that WABI was about running Wintel binaries on RISC based Unixstations, such as Suns, HP-9000s, RS/6000 workstations and so on. But heck, NT on RISC itself couldn't run Wintel binaries, so it's no surprise that these platforms did worse. But w/ any Intel based Unix - be it Linux, BSD or whatever, that should not be an issue. If I'm working in an X based desktop, such as KDE or GNOME or something similar, I don't expect my applications to look like Windows to the point that even the Window menus and everything have to be identical: a KDE or GNOME look & feel is okay.

I think a better goal would be that instead of targetting Office 2010, which like 2007 is a new UI - ribbons & everything, make the native Linux Offices - LibreOffice, Calligra Suite, et al as similar to Office 2003 as possible, and promote that to users. I had been a long time Office 2003 user, and I find 2007 tough to navigate, despite being so fluent w/ its predecessor. And I'm not a typical lay user. So if the new Office suites were to target 2003 and win over their users, a lot would have been achieved. Similarly, use Wine for things like QuickBooks, while in the meantime, hopefully, add something in the KDE Office apps suite to work w/ it, and hopefully make some arrangements w/ banks to support it.

I have no suggestions about the games. Only thing I think would be good - something like Windows Movie Maker - dunno whether OpenShot video editor fits the bill. Cinerella and Avidemux are way too complicated.

I do hope that ReactOS matures soon, so that by the time MS has cleaned up its act on Windows 8, ReactOS is a good enough replacement for both XP and 7.

Re:Which apps? (1)

kaiser423 (828989) | more than 2 years ago | (#39278123)

Ah, but some of the new features in Office 2010 w/ regards to document maps and creating large technical documents are easily worth the price of admission. I love that WINE can do Office 2010 now, because in some cases on my Windows machine I'm using the free Office 2010 starter pack over the full 2007 pack until IT decides we can upgrade precisely because in certain situations it makes me much more productive. Being able to do that on my Linux boxes now without having to boot back into Windows or fire up a heavy VM is very nice.

Re:Which apps? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#39278397)

I've been using Wine for some Windows-only language learning software I *ahem* found on the internet, and to rescue photos from old high school yearbook software that also was Windows-only, with encrypted data files. For actual work type software, like spreadsheets and document editors and CAD tools, I just don't see the need. The native Linux software that is available has always been good enough for my needs.

Re:Which apps? (3, Informative)

LordLucless (582312) | more than 2 years ago | (#39280601)

The following are the apps that I run under Wine (just to give you an idea):
- World of Warcraft
- Audible
- Goldwave Pro (to un-DRM the Audible files)
My wife also uses some website's proprietary software to assemble photo albums, which are then uploaded, printed, bound, and shipped to her.

Visual Studio, stupid (1)

eminencja (1368047) | more than 2 years ago | (#39277657)

Anybody could explain why it is so difficult to get this thing running? Last time I checked even Visual Studio 6.0 did not work. It seems that virtual machine is the only way to go...

Re:Visual Studio, stupid (1)

TheRealMindChild (743925) | more than 2 years ago | (#39278527)

I've been able to use VB6 and VC++6 in WINE forever. There are hurdles, however. WINE doesn't have a MSVBVM60.dll replacement, so you need this for VB6. VC++6 has SOME issues with cross-process debuggering, especially when mixing windows threads with COM's apartment threading.

PvZ? (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#39277867)

But will it finally play Plants vs. Zombiessssssssss!

My kids love that game and I refuse to put winderz on their machines just to play that one game.

DIB! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#39278905)

If I understand this correctly, the DIB will make making a quartz back-end a lot easier.

I wrote one years ago using the now defunct QuickDraw ('cause it was a lot easier to implement GDI in QD), but found better things to do with my time.

I might revisit this, now, however.

Re:DIB! (1)

vinn (4370) | more than 2 years ago | (#39279295)

It will absolutely make that possible. In fact, I suspect that's why CodeWeavers spent the development effort on the DIB engine. This enables the Wine release to happen now, and then even if a Quartz driver is developed, it'll still only be in the development branch for quite some time before it's released, or they can choose to develop that as a proprietary piece on their own.

Office 2010 Support = Garbage (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#39279393)

Excel - Silver
Word - Bronze
OneNote - Bronze
Everything else - Garbage

How exactly is that considered support?

netflix (1)

pnutjam (523990) | more than 2 years ago | (#39279901)

can I watch netflix on linux?

Basic Question (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#39280711)

Is Wine able to handle multi-disc software installation properly now?

Internet Exploder (1)

markdavis (642305) | more than 2 years ago | (#39280735)

About the only reason I would want to run WINE is to run [shutter] Internet Explorer so I can access some damn [private/business] web sites that STILL don't support anything else.

And yet WINE *STILL* cannot run Internet Explorer 7+ worth a damn (last ratings from 1.4.X)! Wouldn't one think that would be high on the list?

http://appdb.winehq.org/objectManager.php?sClass=application&iId=25 [winehq.org] (IE9 = garbage, IE 8 = bronze, IE 7 = bronze/garbage)

Since it is not tested by anyone under 1.4 yet, I guess I should try hacking on it forever and see if it will work yet. But not holding my breath :(

Don't get me wrong- I think the WINE project is wonderful, and they have a lot of really good support for a lot of applications; just not the one I need.

Re:Internet Exploder (1)

markdavis (642305) | more than 2 years ago | (#39280773)

>"worth a damn (last ratings from 1.4.X)!"

Sorry, that is a typo and should read:

"worth a damn (last ratings from 1.3.X)!"

Cookie Monster want run Silverlight (1)

anon208 (2410460) | more than 2 years ago | (#39280855)

For the Netflixes
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