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Microsoft Releases ASP.NET MVC Under the Apache License

Unknown Lamer posted about 2 years ago | from the microsoft-is-that-you dept.

Programming 177

mikejuk writes "Microsoft has announced that they are being even more open with their new approach to ASP.NET MVC. It is making ASP.NET MVC, Web API, and Razor open source under an Apache 2 license. The code is hosted on CodePlex using the new Git support ... You can compile and test out the latest version, but if you do have anything to contribute you have to submit it for Microsoft's approval." To get code upstream Microsoft has to approve (pretty typical), but the git branch is supposedly tracking the latest internal release candidate branch (a bit better than Google does with Android, even). Things seem to have changed quite a bit since the days of Shared Source (tm).

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177 comments

anyone see the flying pigs outside? (5, Funny)

alen (225700) | about 2 years ago | (#39496443)

i just looked and saw one fly past the empire state building

Re:anyone see the flying pigs outside? (5, Funny)

Robert Zenz (1680268) | about 2 years ago | (#39496505)

I haven't seen any flying pigs, but a guy with red skin, horns and one hoof came to our door the other day, asking if we could lend him some blankets, his home just started to get chilly.

Re:anyone see the flying pigs outside? (1)

jellomizer (103300) | about 2 years ago | (#39496631)

I think it comes down to the fact that they want to sell more Visual Studio... I have to admit Visual Studios is a Decent IDE. However if you you are doing PHP or Java. You might as well be using Eclipse or Netbeans as well other Decent IDE.

Being that ASP.NET only runs under Microsoft .NET framework or Mono. It gives developers a bad feeling if you are going to do anything beyond your intranet.

Visual Studio is decent, nothing more (2)

bbbaldie (935205) | about 2 years ago | (#39496761)

I've seen too many "developers" created with VS wizards, who didn't even know what language they were programming in (VB or C#? I don't know!). The apps they build technically work, but are slow, ungainly, and if something breaks, who knows how to fix it? That was SOP at the family-owned Fortune 500 I previously worked at. The open source programmers were forced out, now their whole development staff are dragging and dropping their way to app mediocrity. However, i can see real developers benefiting from this, especially if they can get their asp.net apps to run without IIS, the Windows GUI, and the rest of the usual MS overhead. On Linux and Apache, C# just might scream.

Re:Visual Studio is decent, nothing more (5, Insightful)

terjeber (856226) | about 2 years ago | (#39497001)

I have seen the same (and worse) with people developing on JBoss and Java. What's your point? That some developers are bad? Honestly, working day-to-day in VS2010, NetBeans and Eclipse, VS is by a good margin the better IDE. C# is what Java could have become had its development not been handed over to Yet Another Committee With a Decision Making Disorder (TM). In many ways, C# is moving closer to good stuff like Ruby and Rails (and Sinatra). Look at what the Play! Framework guys did with version 2.0. Not implement it in C# obviously, but look at their rendering engine. Highly Razor inspired.

Prior to v 6, IIS was junk. At 6 it was OK. IIS v7 is actually very good.

On the other hand, if someone ever asks me again to maintain a Web Forms (often known as ASP.NET) project, I will decline the kind invitation. If they insist I will leave the company. Web Forms is (IMnsHO) an abomination. As is JSP. Same with the horror that is JBoss Seam.

Re:Visual Studio is decent, nothing more (0)

bbbaldie (935205) | about 2 years ago | (#39497193)

"Prior to v 6, IIS was junk. At 6 it was OK. IIS v7 is actually very good." Ever have to chase down an issue running PHP with IIS? It used to be a snap with 5. 6 made it more difficult. 7 made it impossible, if you were able to get the non-MS platform to work with it at all. I finally got smart and moved my stuff over to WAMP at first, then LAMP. I had to build the first AD-integrated Linux server in a company employing about 6,000 individuals in order to pull that off. It was still simpler than trying to get PHP to play nice with IIS. Agree with you about Java and JBoss. But I would place VS right in the middle of that pack, not ahead of it. As another commenter mentioned, I'd rather use Notepad ++ to troubleshoot C# code over VS. It takes too long to dig through its crap to find the file I need to tweak. Eclipse is configurable enough to let me get straight to work. However, VS's hand-holding interface is very appealing to folks going from PC cleanup duty to the programming team. ;-)

Re:Visual Studio is decent, nothing more (5, Insightful)

terjeber (856226) | about 2 years ago | (#39497433)

Ever have to chase down an issue running PHP with IIS?

No, I have not, but I am not inclined to run PHP on IIS either. To be honest, I am about as likely to use PHP on any platform as I am to use Visual Basic 6 to do real work. PHP is Yet Another Abomination That Should Be Banned :-)

I have friends who swear by Notepad++, for some reason I have never grown to like it. I think it is the simplicity of code + F5 + debug. VS2010 has a very, very capable debugger. I have not seen its like in any environment, but I have heard people say there are better debuggers for Smalltalk. I have so far not had to opportunity to work with Smalltalk.

My list of preferred web application development environments in order of preference:

  1. Ruby with Sinatra (or Rails)
  2. Play! Framework using Scala
  3. ASP.NET MVC 4 and C# with the async CTP
  4. Play Framework and Java

Things I have worked with that comes in the Abomination category - in no particular order.

  • ASP.NET Web Forms - programming language irrelevant
  • Anything with JBoss in it
  • Almost anything with J2EE in it
  • PHP or anything with BASIC in it (just felt like lumping them together, no special reason)
  • Most PERL stuff, but not all of it. PERL can be good and it can be bad. Depends on the task. Most PERL stuff can be done better in Ruby though.

Re:Visual Studio is decent, nothing more (3, Interesting)

Literaphile (927079) | about 2 years ago | (#39498425)

Let me get this straight - you don't like PHP but you code with Ruby? You and I definitely disagree on the definition of "abomination".

Re:anyone see the flying pigs outside? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#39496763)

You are probably right about them wanting to sell more Visual Studio. Although there is a free web developer suite that you can use to develop MVC applications so I don't think people are forced into buying visual studio.

Re:anyone see the flying pigs outside? (-1, Troll)

Robert Zenz (1680268) | about 2 years ago | (#39496817)

I have to admit Visual Studios is a Decent IDE.

Yes, it is...for beginners.

Re:anyone see the flying pigs outside? (4, Insightful)

Nadaka (224565) | about 2 years ago | (#39496891)

Let me guess, you do all your code in vi?

Or perhaps you write code by shaking a magnet over your hard drive in just the right way?

Visual Studio is a good IDE regardless of your experience level. It is comparable to eclipse. Each has areas where it is a bit better than the other, but few major deficiencies.

Re:anyone see the flying pigs outside? (1)

TheRaven64 (641858) | about 2 years ago | (#39497093)

I do most of my coding in vim, which is a nice text editor once you add the clang autocomplete plugin. I've not used Visual Studio since version 5, and even that version had a better debugger than anything I've seen for C-like languages since (still not close to Smalltalk-80, but you can't have everything).

Still running away little boy? (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#39497255)

Anytime you *think* you have the intellect to 'get the better of me'? Come on over here -> http://mobile.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=2734503&cid=39493361 [slashdot.org] & disprove any points I have made on hosts files there!

(Along with the thoughts & opinions of your /. peers that outnumber your craven tactics 40++:1 and actually agree that hosts files are useful for speed, security, and more of beneficial value to they and others)

You're 'so brave' doing cowardly little trollish ad hominem attack attempts, in your snide little comment there -> http://mobile.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=2734503&cid=39406223 [slashdot.org] !

Let's see how well you bear up under fire when you're challenged to disprove not only the thoughts of others on hosts files benefits they have gotten using custom hosts files, but also points I have made in favor of hosts files that have gotten myself modded up MANY TIMES here by others also (which is tough to get as an AC since /. buries our posts by default).

* It is going to be a PLEASURE annihilating you...

APK

P.S.=> So yes - that's right: I am going to make it a point to humiliate you now, worm.

Especially since you saw fit to attempt to try to 'start up' with me there with an off-topic illogical failing attempt @ ad hominem attacks directed my way there!

So - now the shoe's on the other foot, except that it will illustrate your inadequacy in things technical in computing hugely, proving this is no mere ad hominem attack on my part (only payback you merited, and best part is? YOU only did this, to yourself, worm)... apk

Re:anyone see the flying pigs outside? (1)

SJHillman (1966756) | about 2 years ago | (#39496913)

It depends on the application. If I just want to whip up a simple app with a decent interface, it's hard to beat Visual Studio. However, for more complex projects, I'm just as likely to use Notepad++ as VS depending on what I need. VS is a tool like any other - it's the best tool for some jobs, a decent tool for other jobs and the completely wrong tool for many jobs.

Re:anyone see the flying pigs outside? (1)

siride (974284) | about 2 years ago | (#39497785)

Use VS with ReSharper with a large project and then go back to Vi and tell me that Vi makes you more productive. Hint: it's not just about cool text-editing features. Call me when Vi can do complex refactorings across dozens of projects.

Re:anyone see the flying pigs outside? (1)

terjeber (856226) | about 2 years ago | (#39497451)

and for people with enough brains to not have to try to enlarge their balls by using 1980s technologies to develop software. Like VI(M) for example. A great editor for editing text files, but not a tool for developing software.

Re:anyone see the flying pigs outside? (1)

spongman (182339) | about 2 years ago | (#39497839)

I have to admit Visual Studios is a Decent IDE.

Yes, it is...for beginners.

wow, that means i've been a beginner for 30 years now. and using Visual C++/Studio for 20.of those.

I can't wait until I get good enough at this programming malarkey to use a real IDE like vi/make.

Re:anyone see the flying pigs outside? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#39496943)

Dude! Go easy on the .'s! Try using a , instead once in a while.

Re:anyone see the flying pigs outside? (1)

shutdown -p now (807394) | about 2 years ago | (#39497127)

VS itself is also growing "more free" as time goes by. On one hand, there's web edition of VS Express, which is slowly growing in features that were previously only available in paid editions - in v11 it's (finally) going to get unit testing [hanselman.com] , for example. And then there's also the free WebMatrix, which basically tries to steal the "no-framework PHP" cake.

Re:anyone see the flying pigs outside? (1)

suprem1ty (1854894) | about 2 years ago | (#39496745)

The reports are just coming in... and yes, it is indeed a cold day in hell!

Re:anyone see the flying pigs outside? (1)

suprem1ty (1854894) | about 2 years ago | (#39496773)

Jokes aside though this is awesome. Regardless of Microsoft's motives, an open future for computing is a good future.

Re:anyone see the flying pigs outside? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#39496785)

It was already under a pretty permissive license.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Public_License

The more important part is that they'll consider external contributions now. It's hard to have a community if you're a dictator.

Re:anyone see the flying pigs outside? (1)

Canazza (1428553) | about 2 years ago | (#39496925)

If they don't, just fork it.
MVC is already about 5x faster than the old

Re:anyone see the flying pigs outside? (1)

Canazza (1428553) | about 2 years ago | (#39496939)

wtf, it cut off half my coment. MVC is already faster than the old ASP.NET WebForms/Viewstate model they used to use.

Re:anyone see the flying pigs outside? (1)

poetmatt (793785) | about 2 years ago | (#39497167)

Might want to lay off the drugs a little. Nothing has changed here. You still have the same issues you've always had with apache v2 which is that it's basically the same as the BSD license with the same problems.

Now if they'd do the same thing with MFC and AT... (2)

Short Circuit (52384) | about 2 years ago | (#39496535)

...my job would be easier. I have the source code. I hit the bugs. Sometimes it's even obvious how to fix them...

Re:Now if they'd do the same thing with MFC and AT (1)

jellomizer (103300) | about 2 years ago | (#39496691)

Of course... The time that it takes you to find the bug in a program you didn't write (and the specifications may not be open for you to quickly find it) then you fix the bug, if your fixed isn't approved to go back to the Core code, then you will need to check each time to see if the bug has been fixed and reapply the patch and test it every time.
Sometimes it is much easier to code a work around, report the bug and continue on.

Re:Now if they'd do the same thing with MFC and AT (1)

Short Circuit (52384) | about 2 years ago | (#39496819)

MFC isn't a program, it's an MVC framework library combined with a C++ wrapper around most of Win32, which itself is mostly organized as OO, even though it has a C API. And when things don't behave the way you expect, you're tracking it down anyhow. Once you've worked with MFC (or any library) for five years, you're going to know parts of it at almost as well as your own code--and, given that the framework represents a hotpath for you across multiple projects, you'll know parts of it better than your own code.

And if the patch is rejected, at least they can tell me why. If it's "WONTFIX", then so be it; I'll leave the workaround in place. Otherwise, I can adapt and apply.

Re:Now if they'd do the same thing with MFC and AT (1)

sideslash (1865434) | about 2 years ago | (#39496933)

MFC isn't a program, it's an MVC framework library combined with a C++ wrapper around most of Win32, which itself is mostly organized as OO, even though it has a C API.

Do you need more coffee this morning/[time of day where you are]? MFC [wikipedia.org] is not an MVC [wikipedia.org] framework. It is (as you say) a sometimes precariously-thin OO wrapper around the native C-based Windows API. And most people who work with it would like for it to die. Which Microsoft has actually been working at facilitating in various ways, between the whole .NET ecosystem and now the ability to write Metro apps in C++ against WinRT, leaving the C API out of the picture completely.

Re:Now if they'd do the same thing with MFC and AT (1)

Short Circuit (52384) | about 2 years ago | (#39496983)

My apologies; I misspoke. MFC implements a document/view architecture, not a full MVC. WP article is still critically lacking on that point.

Re:Now if they'd do the same thing with MFC and AT (4, Informative)

Short Circuit (52384) | about 2 years ago | (#39497109)

And most people who work with it would like for it to die. Which Microsoft has actually been working at facilitating in various ways, between the whole .NET ecosystem and now the ability to write Metro apps in C++ against WinRT, leaving the C API out of the picture completely.

Microsoft has made it entirely possible for many people who work with it to move on to different frameworks, but has responded to developer pressure to keep MFC alive and maintained. I doubt it's one of their priorities, but it's better than where things sat with the release of VS2008. VS2010 has improved MFC, and it sounds like VS2011 is marginally better, with its first-class support of C++.

And while I'd love to ditch having my code support anything older than Vista, that's just not going to happen any time soon. My code isn't written for the mass market, it's written for specced use cases, which includes things like supporting WinXP and even (at times) Win2K. If you're writing a new application every year, or doing a major refactor of your code every couple years, you can keep with the times and depend on bleeding edge libraries.

If you're working with a large legacy codebase with install sites over a decade old, you're not going to be jumping at Metro quite yet. It probably isn't going to be until Windows 9 before Microsoft stabilizes their new platform enough to be worth porting code forward. Look at 95 vs 98 vs ME, and then XP vs XPSP2 (which really could have been a new operating system...), and then Vista vs Win7. Microsoft tick-tocks between "what fresh hell is this?" and "Whew! That's a relief!".

Re:Now if they'd do the same thing with MFC and AT (1)

mk1004 (2488060) | about 2 years ago | (#39498075)

If you're working with a large legacy codebase with install sites over a decade old, you're not going to be jumping at Metro quite yet. It probably isn't going to be until Windows 9 before Microsoft stabilizes their new platform enough to be worth porting code forward. Look at 95 vs 98 vs ME, and then XP vs XPSP2 (which really could have been a new operating system...), and then Vista vs Win7. Microsoft tick-tocks between "what fresh hell is this?" and "Whew! That's a relief!".

Where's my mod +1 when I need it?

Re:Now if they'd do the same thing with MFC and AT (1)

CubicleZombie (2590497) | about 2 years ago | (#39497185)

And most people who work with it would like for it to die.

I read that as, "And most people who work with it would like to die". For obvious reasons.

Re:Now if they'd do the same thing with MFC and AT (0)

spongman (182339) | about 2 years ago | (#39498021)

MFC is not an MVC [wikipedia.org] framework.

err... from the wikipedia article you linked to [wikipedia.org] :

Implementations as GUI frameworks

...
Microsoft Foundation Class Library (MFC) – called the document/view architecture.

Re:Now if they'd do the same thing with MFC and AT (2)

sideslash (1865434) | about 2 years ago | (#39498343)

Just using the word "framework" doesn't imply "MVC framework". Model-View-Controller is a specific software engineering design pattern that is not built into MFC to my knowledge.

Re Now if they do the same thing with MFC and ATL (1)

b4dc0d3r (1268512) | about 2 years ago | (#39498373)

Waiting for approval is a valid point, but anyone who spent time using MFC probably has their own list of things that drive them bonkers, and most likely know where the fix needs to be. Screw approval, fix it in your code and ship the result linked statically.

No joke, even the C/C++ headers in MSVC 6 are broken, and due to licensing issues Microsoft can't release a patch for it. People just fix it locally and it's done. Of course, this is mostly STL, so it's not in the runtime DLL files so you could still dynamically link these updates.

http://www.dinkumware.com/vc_fixes.html [dinkumware.com]

If you choose you can install the source code to the MFC library, and step through it like your own code. Just like you can go through the C/C++ runtimes. You're not supposed to fix and re-build it, they did not release the build/project files, only the code so the PDB files could tell the debugger where to look.

If you have spent time in MFC, you quickly learn that every other line of code is likely to have some quirk that you didn't expect. Adding simple overrides requires hacks on top of hacks. And you learn how it works, even if you don't install the code.

I left MFC a long time ago, but I guarantee I could find and fix one bug a day for the next week, maybe two, just based on working with it for maybe 5 years. On top of my normal workload, not just hacking away on bugs for 16 hours. Entire websites are dedicated to working around how MFC doesn't work like it should.

The Petzold equivalent book for MFC starts out with making an MFC app in notepad, no wizards or GUI. If you understand what you are writing, and what the wizard does for you, you can make your own workarounds. All it takes is having the code to see where it is screwing up what you did to it. "The time it takes to find the bug in a program you didn't write" is negligible compared to working around it every time you write a program that works around the same problem.

http://www.amazon.com/Programming-Windows-MFC-Second-Edition/dp/1572316950 [amazon.com]

Wow (1)

PickyH3D (680158) | about 2 years ago | (#39496569)

I am pretty impressed. I honestly wonder how this will effect the web development industry moving forward.

Re:Wow (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#39496617)

#7 [theoatmeal.com]

Re:Wow (1)

halivar (535827) | about 2 years ago | (#39496797)

If you can replace effect with implement, accomplish, you're kosher (effect is also a verb). For instance, the GP may be saying, "I honestly wonder how this will actualize the web development industry moving forward." This statement is fully buzzword-worthy for use in water-cooler dialog, and therefore not out of the realm of possibilities of intended meanings.

Grammar Nazi: 0
Useless Pedant: 1

Re:Wow (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#39497129)

It won't because nobody in their right mind would host a web site using Microsofts platform.

Two Groups (1)

slapout (93640) | about 2 years ago | (#39496583)

It seems to me there are two groups inside Microsoft -- Developers and Managers. Developers want to do things like this. Managers want to prevent things like this. Looks like the devs won this one.

Re:Two Groups (1)

alen (225700) | about 2 years ago | (#39496635)

no, it was ray ozzie or some other guy. can't remember the name. MS hired him and he gave them a business reason to use and support open source standards compliant software.

Re:Two Groups (4, Interesting)

craigtp (1356527) | about 2 years ago | (#39497089)

It's not just developers and managers as groups. Remember, that these days Microsoft is a huge organisation and is full of many different divisions. There's Windows, Office, XBox, Windows Phone etc. amongst many others.

The guys that are responsible for this move are the "Web Dev Div", who are a sub-group within the "Developer Division".

It contains many people, including guys like Scott Guthrie [wikipedia.org] , Scott Hanselman [hanselman.com] , Phil Haack [haacked.com] (who recently left to join GitHub) etc., who have always done things that don't seem very Microsoft-like, like releasing ASP.NET MVC as an open-source product [asp.net] - albeit one that didn't accept outside contributions - back in 2009 along with such moves as bundling things like the open source jQuery library with Visual Studio and openly committing improvements [stephenwalther.com] back to the core project without trying the usual embrace, extend, extinguish tactics. [jquery.com]

Within certain parts of Microsoft, they can, have done, and are continuing to do some very interesting, worthwhile and generally community-friendly (and not-so-evil) work.

Re:Two Groups (1)

slapout (93640) | about 2 years ago | (#39497175)

I didn't mean it as formal divisions, I meant there are two types of people working there -- those with a developer mindset (mostly like the devs you mentioned) and ....others. It seems to be mostly the developers (in whatever division they work in) that want to do the cool things.

Re:Two Groups (1)

spongman (182339) | about 2 years ago | (#39498053)

two groups inside Microsoft -- Developers and Managers

you forgot the accountants and the lawyers. those are the key players in this regard.

ASP.NET MVC is OK, but C# is awesome (4, Insightful)

sideslash (1865434) | about 2 years ago | (#39496675)

I guess Microsoft's MVC stuff is OK, and Razor in particular is comparable to the best of other frameworks out there, but their C# language is the primary glue that enables the awesomeness. C# is the top of the line within the Java-ripoff genre of languages, and I would like to see Microsoft take steps to help it be used more widely. I realize OSS purists will probably never be on board, and I understand why; but it's definitely not based on the quality of the technology.

Re:ASP.NET MVC is OK, but C# is awesome (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#39496871)

I have just finished writing a web app using MVC3 after years of using python and php frameworks for web content and I would have to completely agree. C# is where it is at. MVC3 and Razor are similar to what is out there but C# is why I would choose to use MVC over other frameworks like django.

Re:ASP.NET MVC is OK, but C# is awesome (1)

jnowlan (618290) | about 2 years ago | (#39497301)

Why c# over python? I usually hear positives about c# but python just lets me 'get things done'.

I haven't used c# but on occasion have to wrangle java, and it is painful after the freedom of python. No boilerplate. Based on c#'s lineage I find it hard to imagine that there isn't a fair amount of boilerplate involved with using it.

Re:ASP.NET MVC is OK, but C# is awesome (1)

spiralx (97066) | about 2 years ago | (#39497739)

Python is my favourite language, and C# is my favourite high-level language. Compared to Java there's much less boilerplate required, and there are plenty of features which make it IMO pleasurable to program in. While it occupies a comparable niche to Java, the difference is light and day in terms of developer joy.

Re:ASP.NET MVC is OK, but C# is awesome (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#39498083)

You should try groovy. You can remove a lot of the boilerplate code of java if you feel like it, or keep it for specific tasks you want it for. http://groovy.codehaus.org/

Re:ASP.NET MVC is OK, but C# is awesome (1)

codepunk (167897) | about 2 years ago | (#39498675)

Or better yet not have to deal with any of that shit and use a language that does not require it.

Re:ASP.NET MVC is OK, but C# is awesome (1)

spiffmastercow (1001386) | about 2 years ago | (#39498569)

C# 2.0 was basically a clone of Java and didn't really have anything that made it particularly special. With 4.0, it has almost everything that made Python great, without any of the huge drawbacks of Python. It's fast (in relative terms.. slower than C and C++, faster than most anything else), it has an extensive standard library, closures, lambda functions, Linq (similar in function to Python's list building and iterator expressions, but more robust), good multi-threading support, and some top notch metaprogramming support through generics and expression trees.

Re:ASP.NET MVC is OK, but C# is awesome (1)

Tyler Eaves (344284) | about 2 years ago | (#39497419)

Absolutely. I'd love to see Microsoft either provide a high-quality cross-platform .NET implementation, or at least release the core CLR stuff. C# has a lot of really interesting stuff going on in it.

Re:ASP.NET MVC is OK, but C# is awesome (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#39497447)

"OSS purity" has nothing to do with the communities reluctance to adopt the technology. Microsoft regularly uses patents against the open source community and .NET is covered by an immense number of patents. It would absolutely idiotic for, say, a major Linux distribution to adopt C# as an important component until the patent issue is dealt with. So stop blaming the open source community for what is in essence, Microsoft's continued false claims about being "open". If Microsoft wants to participate openly, then they need to drop their patent claims against the open source community just as everyone else has done.

Sad part is the community has been wrong about C# (1)

MikeRT (947531) | about 2 years ago | (#39497701)

Prior to Sun being bought by Oracle, you could be forgiven for thinking that Java was the safer patent bet. However, now we are about a decade into the conversation and the "safer" platform is the one where there is a major patent battle while Microsoft has never once even bared its fangs at Mono. I think the difference comes down to this...

For Microsoft, C# is just a gateway drug to making Windows apps. Microsoft honestly doesn't give a rat's ass if you are building products with C# or any other aspect of the .NET on Linux platform because .NET is just a means to an end for them. Their goal isn't to make you a C# developer, it's to make you write code that works only on Windows. If you use C# to make a Linux app, you are no different to them than someone who makes a Linux app in C++. Compared to Oracle, it probably gives them a little skip in their step to think that Mono will never enable true Windows development because that dichotomy leans commercial development in their favor without them having to be rat bastards about anything.

The same is not true of Java. Java is a whole damn platform unto itself. When Oracle senses their grip is failing, they have to squeeze harder because the goal is to make "Java apps" not "Java apps for Oracle Solaris/Unbreakable Linux." Therefore they have a lot more incentive to control.

It's pointless to conjecture about how Microsoft would have dealt with Mono had Google used it for Android because Microsoft very well might have let them violate Microsoft's patents to their hearts' content as a way to isolate Oracle a little. If Windows Phone and Android used .NET, not Java, there would be no mobile Java platform worth mentioning. That works 10x better to Microsoft's advantage than the short term victory of hurting Google.

Why Android? (1)

SebaSOFT (859957) | about 2 years ago | (#39496713)

Is this a Microsoft vs Competition thing? There are a lot of "propietarier" code out there that could deflect this against.

Time for a change (1)

Taantric (2587965) | about 2 years ago | (#39496757)

I think this just proves that MS is no longer worthy and it's high time we honour Steve Jobs with the "Borg" /. thumbnail Apple seems to have taken over the Evil Empire franchise with great gusto.

Re:Time for a change (1)

Goaway (82658) | about 2 years ago | (#39497117)

You are aware that Apple is running and sponsoring some of the most popular open-source projects on the web, right? Also, that Steve Jobs is dead?

Re:Time for a change (1, Insightful)

Bengie (1121981) | about 2 years ago | (#39497673)

And Microsoft dumps billions into collaborative research. Many modern system designs from CPU to memory to IO to Networking were spear-headed by MS research. I can enjoy the stereotyping of MS as a soulless company that ships insecure products while adding nothing of value.

Some times we like to stereotype for fun. This is why Taantric said '[...]honour Steve Jobs with the "Borg" /. thumbnail'

Anyway, you can't deny that Apple got to 100bil without price gouging(aka ripping off) its customers. They may have a decent product, but they still over charge, which is also "evil". We just choose to focus on the evil MS does while also focusing on the good Apple does.

Biases, gotta love them. They make us "human".

Re:Time for a change (1)

onefriedrice (1171917) | about 2 years ago | (#39498137)

They may have a decent product, but they still over charge, which is also "evil".

On no, a big bad evil corporation is making money. I can't call myself a friend to Apple or Microsoft, but this statement is just retarded. Companies charge what people are willing to pay. A lot of people (apparently) disagree with your valuation of Apple products, and nobody was tricked into buying an iPod or iPhone. There were so many sold that there is no excuse for somebody to not know what they were getting when they threw down their money, and the cost was obviously worth it to them.

but this makes sense. (2)

rickb928 (945187) | about 2 years ago | (#39496779)

IANAP, but if:
Windows 8 is focusing on HTML5 and JavaScript.
Microsoft still wants to sell .NET tools...

then open sourcing. NET makes sense. give away the handle, sell the blades.

Re:but this makes sense. (1)

Richard_at_work (517087) | about 2 years ago | (#39496895)

Windows 8 isnt focusing on HTML5 and JS - its just adding them as a development pathway. Don't believe all of the outrage stories, they invariably aren't true...

Re:but this makes sense. (2)

shutdown -p now (807394) | about 2 years ago | (#39497073)

Windows 8 is focusing on HTML5 and JavaScript.

Win8 Metro apps can be written in any of: C++, C#/VB, JS (out of the box, third parties can add support to their own languages as well). Of those, I personally find C# to be the most convenient, simply because most Metro APIs are async only (to force developers to never block the UI thread with some expensive call), and C# has nice syntactic sugar for this in form of async/await [microsoft.com] , whereas in both C++ and JS you have to manually chain callbacks with x.then(y).

Is Microsoft still evil? (5, Interesting)

gman003 (1693318) | about 2 years ago | (#39496793)

All evidence points to Microsoft no longer being "evil". At worst, maybe jerks, but not evil:

Internet Explorer is following standards about as well as everyone else
Windows is no longer a horrible, bug-ridden mess - the main complaints are "it's too similar to the last one, no need to upgrade" and "they're changing the interface too much AND I DON'T LIKE IT"
The 360 is fairly open, by console standards, even with "official" homebrew via XNA (you need to buy a license, but it's not a $100,000 developer's license)
They've been submitting a lot of code to open-source, using *actual* open-source licenses
Their stuff works well withttp://developers.slashdot.org/story/12/03/28/142228/microsoft-releases-aspnet-mvc-under-the-apache-license#h virtualization under Linux, and their VM will run Linux (face it, the Old MS would have made it near-impossible to run Windows within Linux)

Now, they're still far from my favorite company, but I for one am willing to reclassify them from "lawful evil" to "lawful neutral".

Re:Is Microsoft still evil? (1)

game kid (805301) | about 2 years ago | (#39496903)

Those sound about right. I just wish the respective managements of (e.g.) Google, Slashdot, and Canonical didn't almost-proportionally regress as Microsoft slowly morphed from Hellspawn to New And Somewhat Improved Hellspawn.

I mean, between Google+, Slashdot TV, Unity (I tried that, and it made me move to Arch Linux with KDE, with a layover in Kubuntu 11.10)...

Re:Is Microsoft still evil? (1)

MonsterTrimble (1205334) | about 2 years ago | (#39498091)

Google, Slashdot, and Canonical didn't almost-proportionally regress

While I think Slashdot does need to get criticism from time to time, I don't think the editor issues are on the same level as Unity & the cult of Jobs.

Re:Is Microsoft still evil? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#39496915)

Linux is no threat to Microsoft.

LoseThos is a secondary OS, but endorsed by God.

God says...
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conceive flee BEFORE toys included fearfully subjoinedst
cd produced beneath Homer's too straitly abler pastime
abandoned gratuitously When passible parity formest smaller
Soft agito aim grasp heareth magnified standing explaining
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wanderings distributest shook faced similitude dying farther
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rude funeral tongue indued cover meditated glided whereon
foster Predicaments puffed incensed findeth counselled
assaying poison darkened apprehended bitterness He humanity
cellars ceased

Re:Is Microsoft still evil? (1, Interesting)

jbernardo (1014507) | about 2 years ago | (#39497037)

Yes they are. As long as they are using NDAs and patent trolling to extort money from companies using open source, they are evil. They might seem less evil in this particular point - but they are still the same microsoft we all learned to hate. At least those of us that did do business with them, or know some company who did, like sendo...

Re:Is Microsoft still evil? (1)

gman003 (1693318) | about 2 years ago | (#39497145)

NDAs are everywhere in business. Everywhere. You can't call a company "evil" for using them without diluting the word "evil" itself.

And, while MS does have a huge patent portfolio which is a significant potential threat, I don't actually know of them *using* it the way you describe. They sue other companies, sure, but I have not yet heard of them suing an open-source project for patent violations.

Re:Is Microsoft still evil? (2)

jbernardo (1014507) | about 2 years ago | (#39497545)

No. I call Microsoft evil for the way the use NDAs when they are extorting money from companies using open source (I never wrote open source projects) with crap patents; it is evil in that it allows them to hide the merits (or more accurately, the lack of) and to avoid that the open source projects involved use alternatives that don't violate Microsoft's patents. If you don't know of Microsoft doing patent trolling with dubious patents, check the Motorola or Nook suits. They are suing for the use of open source projects, and using NDAs to try to hide the ridiculous patents that these projects might be infringing.

Re:Is Microsoft still evil? (1)

ilsaloving (1534307) | about 2 years ago | (#39497173)

The problem is, did they do these things because they're trying to fix their reputation, or because they realize they're screwed if they don't?

I'm inclined to believe the latter, because based on other behaviour (such as the mutilation of the standards process with their open office file format) indicates that they are still doing whatever they can to screw everyone around them and maintain control.

For example with IE, they *had* to make a standards compliant browser because their gamble to control the internet with IE6 failed so badly that now the only people who continue to use IE are those that are clueless about the alternatives, or had the misfortune of investing in the IE infrastructure.

Also, partially open sourcing or standardizing their tools doesn't mean anything if there isn't enough to do anything with. That's why no one takes Mono seriously. Without access to WinForms and other libraries, C# is practically useless for cross-platform development. The best people have done is create C# bindings for other existing OSS libraries like gnome, which don't translate back to windows very easily.

Let's face it, there's still too much history of not just evil, but down right nasty behaviour. If they continue down the road for a few more years without any major issues, *THEN* I will acknowledge Microsoft has improved. But they still have way too much to make up for.

Re:Is Microsoft still evil? (1, Insightful)

Billly Gates (198444) | about 2 years ago | (#39497523)

IE 6 was a great and standards compliant browser ... in 2001.

IE 6 meant you could use CSS, integrate it with AD/IIS for things like employee logins, had fast graphics, etc. It is just very old and silly to use today. If you go under hall of fame on slashdot and read the most popular stories of all time someone asked "What is keeping you on Windows?"

IE 6 was one of the most common answers and how it was such a great browser. Netscape was terrible and so was Mozilla (before Firefox) if you ever think IE 6 was buggy. People tend to remember the good things about the past like their high paying jobs, good economy, IT being respected vs a cost center, and the birth of the .com.

What they do not remember was all the websites looking like shit similiar to craigslist. Go google Yahoo from 2000 screenshots? Looks like mindspring of old.

IE 6 bugs were introduced because it was rushed and many of the developers did not like CSS on the IE team as they viewed it as a threat to MSN. Back in those days the internet was a big deal like today as people prefered AOL and online communities. It was not the same as today. CSS was partially implemented and it did have less bugs than Netscape. MS needed it finished to kill Netscape and have a browser ready for XP.

MS did not have the intention to be evil with it. They wanted client win32 apps instead and feared the web and AOL. Anyway those days are long gone.

This and the parents post shows that any corporation is good and evil. Anyone including even Google can be evil when they gain too much power and will be good when they have to compete. Apple was such a good company that fought for the ideals of opensource and for the good of the user at one time. Today they are assholes once they got handed the keys. MS was less evil at the time than Apple is today. Google is making Chrome proprietary with dart, SPDY, and javascript extensions. Remember that post a year ago here on that band playing with advanced video effects on HTML 5? Oops it only ran on Chrome. Hmm why is that?

I wish C# was more cross platform. But it is so tied into Windows because thats what it was developed for. If the DOJ split MS up in an alternative universe I would bet VS would be available for Mac and Linux as well.

Re:Is Microsoft still evil? (1)

Billly Gates (198444) | about 2 years ago | (#39497595)

Forgot a *not* in the internet was not a big deal like it is today.

Most people still used dial up prodigy, AOL, and MSN to connect and the world wide web looked like craigslist and mindspring.

IE 9 is an ok browser. IE 10 will be very competitive against Chrome and FF. The latest consumer preview of Windows 8 shows its html5test.com score between Chrome and FF 11. Not too shabby, not to mention its javascript is the most compliant of any browser according to javascript conformance test.

Re:Is Microsoft still evil? (1)

CubicleZombie (2590497) | about 2 years ago | (#39497329)

All evidence points to Microsoft no longer being "evil". At worst, maybe jerks, but not evil:

My bought-and-paid-for copy of Windows 7 Starter came with the Microsoft logo stuck as the wall paper. No way to change it. And if you find and replace the .BMP, it will brick the computer. I'm not making this up.

That's evil.

But I still like C# and ASP MVC.

Re:Is Microsoft still evil? (1)

gman003 (1693318) | about 2 years ago | (#39497537)

First, it's not like Microsoft tries to hide that Starter is horribly crippled. You bought the Shit version, and now you're complaining that it's shit?

Second, how did you even buy it? From what I can tell, it's only sold to OEMs, primarily in "emerging markets" (I've never even *seen* a Starter copy in the US - every computer I've checked out had Home Premium or Ultimate). So you bought from a cheap-ass vendor, and then complained that it came with the crappy version of Windows, instead of seeing it as a discount on the Microsoft tax.

Selling a crappy product as the cheap version and charging to upgrade is a dick move, but not illegal, and not really even evil. I can actually see it being beneficial in some circumstances (buying a computer with full intent of slapping Linux on it, primarily).

Re:Is Microsoft still evil? (1)

CubicleZombie (2590497) | about 2 years ago | (#39497783)

It came on my netbook. Yes, that means I paid money for it.

I could understand just about anything crippled on Starter edition. Even the lack of configuration options, since it's supposed to be an appliance. What is unfuckingacceptable is that it actually runs a hash on the background bitmap file and bricks the computer if it's tampered with. The EULA specifically prohibits the end user from changing the background. That's like putting thumbtack on your chair and demanding money to take it away.

What's the first thing you do when you log into a Windows PC? Change the background. Sorry, you have to pay to upgrade to access a feature that's been standard since at least Win 3.1. And at that point, you've already opened the box and can't return the piece of shit.

Oh well, thanks to Microsoft, I learned that Ubuntu rocks on a netbook.

Re:Is Microsoft still evil? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#39498057)

It was reduced for cost reasons.

The h.264 patents that slashdotters love to rail Mozilla for refusing to support are expensive and so are many others. It is hard to keep the cost of a netbook under $399 when Windows 7 took years of development and includes licensed technology from people outside of MS.

I worked at a PC repair shop and installing codecs was one of the top 5 things clients wanted so they could watch movies and things like that. I believe you can upgrade for only $59 or something stupid if this really bothers you.

MS even losses money for Windows 7 starter edition. If you go to youtube you can search for codes on turning your installation into the pro version. Make sure it is recent video if you really are cheap and can't afford it.

Re:Is Microsoft still evil? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#39497887)

Have heard the tale of wolf in lamb skin?
Or the scorpion which wanted to cross the river?

Captcha: despise ./ must have some AI picking their captchas.

Re:Is Microsoft still evil? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#39498413)

All evidence points to Microsoft no longer being "evil". At worst, maybe jerks, but not evil:

From roughly 1989 to 2003 Microsoft was the Death Star. Then Google happened, and Apple, and Facebook, and Firefox...

Now they're a Red Giant. The torch has been passed.

The target is different (1, Troll)

Animats (122034) | about 2 years ago | (#39498555)

Microsoft is aggressive towards their competitors, as was IBM in its day. Both had antitrust problems. Google and Facebook are aggressive towards their users. They have privacy-invasion problems.

This is the price of ad-supported "free". Microsoft wants you to buy their stuff. You're the customer. With Google and Facebook, you're the product.

re Approval Required jibe (3, Insightful)

Richard_at_work (517087) | about 2 years ago | (#39496825)

To get code upstream Microsoft has to approve (pretty typical)

So, tell me, which flag ship open source projects main branch can you just merge your code into without approval? The Linux kernel? Apache? X? MySQL? Firefox?

Thats a fucking pathetic jibe "Unknown Lamer", not something an editor should be making.

Re:re Approval Required jibe (1)

Richard_at_work (517087) | about 2 years ago | (#39497031)

Actually, rereading it you can take that in one of two ways, either "thats typical for projects of this type" or "thats typical of Microsoft *rolleyes*" - I took it in one way, which probably means others will as well. Apologies if it was meant in the other way.

Re:re Approval Required jibe (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#39497039)

So, tell me, which flag ship open source projects main branch can you just merge your code into without approval?

Maybe that's what they meant by "pretty typical".
I know this is Slashdot, but just maybe that wasn't a jibe against Microsoft.

Re:re Approval Required jibe (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#39497069)

You have read that all wrong. The editor is saying its typical for any project, not for Microsoft.

I didn't read it as a jibe (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#39497169)

I think the "pretty typical" was in regards to any major project requiring the changes to be approved. I'm not so sure it was meant to be a jibe as just saying that's not a huge deal.

The whole sentence is just bringing to light that there is a key difference since MS is the gatekeeper where typically it is the community.

New Approach (5, Interesting)

Martz (861209) | about 2 years ago | (#39496919)

Microsoft now seem to have a really good grasp on how to deal with free software. They know they need to get developers and administrators to incorporate or use their products in part, rather than use the defacto standard free software, and that means they need to be interoperable and compatible.

A conference I attended for CakePHP in Manchester 2011 was sponsored by Microsoft, they provided a 3 course meal and contributed towards the bar tab for attendees.

They know the way to a geeks heart - food and beer - and they also know that they need to get free software communities to build support for Microsoft platforms as well as the free platforms. For example the CakePHP community, Microsoft went to great efforts to ensure that the MSSQL database abstraction class was improved by the core developers to better support the MS platform. Now I can at least choose between MySQL and MSSQL, and there's a chance I'd buy and license it for a particular application.

This attitude from Microsoft isn't new, but I don't really see them being able to execute the "extinguish" part of their normal plan on GPL/BSD/MIT licensed software. Instead I can see them at grassroots level trying to make their platform relevant and make sure people can hook into it, but they get left on the sidelines.

Re:New Approach (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#39498059)

They've been around long enough to learn that at some points they will have to change the ways the do business. Sometimes drastically. Their success will be determined by the timings and approach just like everyone else I suppose.

MS Management must have seen that their "Lock-in" mentality is not going to help them when Apple is prepared to up that anti so much more than MS will. Or even can since backwards/legacy compatibility is only a concern the MS has and not Apple.

So Management must have decided they should foster a platform, to see windows everywhere it has to be inter-operable with everything. The industry has told them they want to be using linux when they have to get dirty, so MS will help with linux so far as to make their own products compatible. They aren't going to go the "free" route as linux has done as they wont control. However MS knows that can't beat Apple at the lockin game (consumers are telling MS they don't want them to either). So MS will spread its ecosystem as wide as it can but will hold dominion on the direction they want their products to be used.

It's kind of a meet in the middle strategy now.

It's a trap (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#39497005)

duh

Re:It's a trap (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#39497299)

A very open trap

holy TLA! (1)

blackfrancis75 (911664) | about 2 years ago | (#39497143)

Really? One project; three three-letter-acronyms? OK, .NET isn't an acronym, but still..
Playing TLA Bingo in our developer meetings will get too easy if this continues

Thanks for the tip (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#39497775)

Thanks for the tip. Microsoft is putting old, dead, proprietary code --still tied up in patents-- into the wild (and possibly occupying space on Sourceforge). Its sufficiently full of holes, security vulnerabilities and broken that anyone wanting to do anything with it 1) has to debug it, 2) has to code software (in general) exclusive to microsoft, and 3) still has legal patent mine fields to dance through at the end of the process. Wouldn't it be better (easier, faster) to cover yourself in honey and jump on a nest of army ants?

That's interesting. (1)

javascriptjunkie (2591449) | about 2 years ago | (#39498613)

Razor is a great little technology. It reminds me a lot of the old asp classic style of coding.
So you get all the awful practice, and a much deeper level of system access. On the up side, it does make .net much easier to work with.

Good stuff.

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