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Google, Amazon, Microsoft Go East For Network Gear

samzenpus posted about 2 years ago | from the better-buy dept.

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theodp writes "Wired's Cade Metz has the scoop on the move away from U.S. network equipment stalwarts, calling it of the best-kept secrets in Silicon Valley. 'Cloud computing is an arms race,' writes Metz. 'The biggest web companies on earth are competing to see who can deliver their services to the most people in the shortest amount of time at the lowest cost. And the cheapest arms come straight from Asia.' Or, as Joyent's Howard Wu puts it, 'It's kind of like buying couches. If you buy one, you go to a retail store. If you buy 10,000 couches, you go straight to the factory.'"

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phirst! (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#39543339)

phirst!

wow.. really? (4, Insightful)

rgbrenner (317308) | about 2 years ago | (#39543403)

Wow.. really? Huge multinational companies are buying equipment from developing countries because it's cheaper?! What is the world coming to?

Re:wow.. really? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#39543671)

What is the world coming to?

Closer to 1984. The networked gear from the Chinar comes pre-equiped with the spying options. It will cost extra to have it removed. Once stuff is in place and plugged, all that is needed to turn it on will be a minor terrist attack somewhere.

It is all a plot by the Chinar is doing this to steal our freedoms from the inside. And then have our own gubbermint suppress the people when they revolt because their good jobs have gone.

Aluminum armor suit off....

Re:wow.. really? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#39543721)

On the contrary, TFA says Google is getting their gear direct from China because the Cisco gear was closed, proprietary stuff that was also stupidly expensive.

Re:wow.. really? (4, Interesting)

lightknight (213164) | about 2 years ago | (#39543815)

As opposed to the networking gear that comes from the US, that has a NSA-approved sticker attached to it.

Pot, this is the kettle. You're black.

Re:wow.. really? (3, Funny)

_merlin (160982) | more than 2 years ago | (#39544951)

Whoosh
He even made a point of writing "chinar" and "gubbmint" to make it obvious he was taking the piss.

Re:wow.. really? (1)

lightknight (213164) | more than 2 years ago | (#39554923)

Oh, I got that on the first read. ;-)

Still, on the off-chance he was playing the fool to undermine the argument, I added a comment.

Re:wow.. really? (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#39543899)

Last time anyone cared, the US didn't need anybody to "steal our freedoms from the inside". The US is doing to itself just fine.

Status update (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#39543407)

So that means Amazon and Facebook and Google has first mover advantage and Apple of all companies have factory capacity, supply chain, capital capacity and multi-app user base advantage? Oh, and Worldcom's old telecom hub.

JJ

Re:Status update (1)

siddesu (698447) | about 2 years ago | (#39543689)

Too bad you did not have the first post advantage.

What cant THIS be an April Fools joke... (2)

dan_linder (84060) | about 2 years ago | (#39543413)

I quickly read the Wired article hoping to find a joke but didn't find the punchline...

Dan

I expect to see some typical comment about the (0, Troll)

Fireking300 (1852630) | about 2 years ago | (#39543419)

I expect to see some typical comment about the possibility of foreign entities being persuaded, coerced, bribed, or forced by a Government agency of the local government to modify the design of the hardware in order to have a backdoor for spying. I'm sure these big corporations inspect their hardware thoroughly. Anyways why does everyone paint eastern governments as entirely evil.

Re:I expect to see some typical comment about the (3, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#39543435)

Not Eastern, just China. They've been known to do it, and they'll do it again. You think Australia refused to let Huawei bid because they found the company's logo unpleasant?

Re:I expect to see some typical comment about the (1, Interesting)

ozmanjusri (601766) | about 2 years ago | (#39543813)

In Australia's instance, it's more likely because Washington told them to refuse than any home-grown reason.

australia had specific and credible evidence (1)

johnjones (14274) | more than 2 years ago | (#39546827)

look to be honest I have seen the "lawyers" and to be honest I would not let anyone from Huawei bid on my contracts either and thats nothing to do with china but to do with quality

the fact that your going to be passing defence department data over those links and you think for one moment someone won't tap that data ?
your very deluded, what you can do is make it harder and one of the first places to look is at the network layer and how to secure that

for example a known problem from years back...
most phone calls from the greek prime minster where intercepted on the network level at a Vodafone switch and guess who supplies Vodafone ?
Huawei

thats enough for me to exclude them let alone all the other problems...

the funny thing is that Huawei have been trying to buy influence by paying old politicians in australia....

have fun

John Jones
     

Re:australia had specific and credible evidence (1)

ozmanjusri (601766) | more than 2 years ago | (#39546931)

you think for one moment someone won't tap that data ?

That data is already being tapped by hostile trading partners such as the USA, and will continue to be tapped into the distant future, no matter who supplies the hardware.

Re:I expect to see some typical comment about the (4, Insightful)

mbkennel (97636) | about 2 years ago | (#39543517)

No, it is not possible to inspect hardware at that level sufficiently thoroughly and it is certain that the entities will be coerced into doing exactly what you wrote.

This threat is not theoretical. The details are classified but what's been leaked is pretty indicative, if you know government bureaucracy, that things have happened for real. Actual chip-gate-level "flaws" and backdoors of very high sophistication have been inserted into the physical manufacturing chain.

Re:I expect to see some typical comment about the (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#39543605)

All true.

But what makes people think the USA is any different in this sense? The "good ol' US of A" is also known for demanding backdoors everywhere... Or are you saying that bad things are only bad when it's not you doing them?

(Captcha: "benign")

Re:I expect to see some typical comment about the (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#39543951)

The US is absolutely doing the same things. But if I have to have a backdoor in national infrastructure, I'd rather it be placed there by our government than someone else's. Just like I'm not thrilled with the armed VIPR squads hanging out around subways and bus stations (could they have picked a more sinister name?), but I'd be even more upset if there Chinese soldiers stationed there.

Re:I expect to see some typical comment about the (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#39548289)

I'd much rather have China doing the spying than the US. Why? Because if I do anything illegal China isn't going to jail me for it.

Re:I expect to see some typical comment about the (1)

mikael (484) | about 2 years ago | (#39544333)

I always wondered why USB connecting my mobile phone to my laptop wpuld well and truly mess up the wi-fi connection for 24 hours. Even rebooting wouldn't fix the problem. Hint: the mobile phone would appear to the PC as a file system with auto-run. The most annoying thing was that on a Windows PC, the auto-run would reroute the network settings through the mobile phone network.

Re:I expect to see some typical comment about the (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#39543521)

I'm sure these big corporations inspect their hardware thoroughly.

I'm not sure why you would be sure of that when the profit motive is obviously in play here. I used to be sure they would safeguard my private data, too. I'm wiser now.

Re:I expect to see some typical comment about the (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#39543613)

I expect to see some typical comment about the possibility of foreign entities being paid by a Government agency of the local government to modify the design of the hardware in order to have a backdoor for spying. I'm sure these big corporations inspect their hardware thoroughly. Anyways why does everyone paint eastern governments as entirely evil.

There, fixed that for you.

Re:I expect to see some typical comment about the (2, Insightful)

Rakishi (759894) | about 2 years ago | (#39543675)

Anyways why does everyone paint eastern governments as entirely evil.

Because like all large governments they are self-serving and to outsiders that makes them effectively evil. Go look at what the US did during the Cold War. Same thing, except this time the US is on the receiving end. Actually, look at ACTA for a current example of how much the US fucks with other countries for it's own perceived gain.

The difference is that China has no desire to hide such actions too much and as such is able to take them to whole new levels. They want their economy and their companies to succeed and they will do anything to achieve that goal.

Does that makes them evil? If you say yes, consider this. They have over 1 billion people and an economy that is not self sustaining yet. Hundreds of millions of those people live in atrociousness conditions right now. Worst case, China fails to build itself into a proper first world economy. Then hundreds of millions will die and hundreds of millions more would probably have been better off if they had died.

If you think every American not being able to buy three Starbucks Latte's a day more of a sin than having hundreds of kids starve to death, maybe you should look long and hard in the mirror before deciding what is evil and what is not.

Re:I expect to see some typical comment about the (1)

LoRdTAW (99712) | more than 2 years ago | (#39547657)

If you think every American not being able to buy three Starbucks Latte's a day more of a sin than having hundreds of kids starve to death, maybe you should look long and hard in the mirror before deciding what is evil and what is not.

Before we go any further, are you seriously going to pull a "think of the children" argument on /.? What does the above quoted text mean exactly? Are you saying we should do all we can to save China's population from itself by buying as many Chinese goods we can while sacrificing our standard of living?

I don't think I am evil when I say I will not keep me up at night if millions starve in China, they bought it upon themselves. If you outpace your ability to sustain a civilization then you fucked up, its not the fault of someone in another country who wanted cheaper goods and 3 lattes, they didn't make the rules. China is trying to become a successful global economy via short-cuts and cheating. Nations like Germany, Japan and the USA spent a century or two and a few major wars getting where they are. If China's economy turns out to be a house of cards and it collapses then too bad, they tried to cheat the system and lost.

If millions starve it will be sad, but its not going to keep me up at night thinking about how I could have bought more iPads and computers from Chinese manufactures so they could feed their families.

Re:I expect to see some typical comment about the (1)

Rakishi (759894) | more than 2 years ago | (#39548151)

So starting provoked wars, invading nations, murdering and torturing tens of millions of people is the right (tm) way to be a first world nation but what China is doing isn't?

Glad I'm not your psychiatrist.

Re:I expect to see some typical comment about the (1)

LoRdTAW (99712) | more than 2 years ago | (#39551937)

Never said that it was the right way, you just made that assumption and put words in my mouth.

Its the history of the world, shit happened and we moved on. We had to endure those hardships but with them they bought about a lot of technical advancements and massively stimulated industry. WW2 alone stimulated the growth of aviation, space travel, computers, communications and medicine. It was a terrible time in history but it was part of western technical and industrial growth. And before WW2, WW1 and earlier wars played part in the growth of the west. I don't think it was the right way, war sucks but it happened and it bought about a lot of change. and WW2 was just a small period in the history of the industrialized world, there were many other innovations that came about without needing war to stimulate its growth.

Like it or not what China is doing to its currency exchange rate, lax environmental laws, lax labor laws and sheer numbers willing to work for peanuts is almost a war. Not a hot war but an economic one.

Re:I expect to see some typical comment about the (1)

RajivSLK (398494) | more than 2 years ago | (#39553611)

I don't think I am evil when I say I will not keep me up at night if millions starve in China, they bought it upon themselves. If you outpace your ability to sustain a civilization then you fucked up, its not the fault of someone in another country who wanted cheaper goods and 3 lattes, they didn't make the rules. China is trying to become a successful global economy via short-cuts and cheating. Nations like Germany, Japan and the USA spent a century or two and a few major wars getting where they are. If China's economy turns out to be a house of cards and it collapses then too bad, they tried to cheat the system and lost.

Are you kidding me?

The western worlds route to a successful economy: About 400 years ago your ancestors (I'm assuming) migrated to a new fertile continent with lots of resources and killed almost all of the many millions of people living there- they then went to another continent and took slaves from there and built their economy. Next, with their new found wealth they went around the world "colonizing" countries and taking their GDP back to Europe.

Should China employ the same route to a successful economy?

It is quite probable that the only reason that the Americas were not colonized by either China or India before the Europeans was due to the Confucian bureaucracy who in around 1500 made it a capital offense to build a seagoing junk with more than two masts (a similar rule was imposed by the Brahmins in India). At the time China had more advanced ships and ocean going skill than the Europeans and the standard of living in India and China was higher than in pre-columbian Europe.

So really, you are just a lucky little result of history. With some very small changes in the past you could just be some peasant boy living in a dirty overcrowded Europe hoping for a Job at Foxconn London. Hope that thought doesn't keep you up at night either.

I'll Never Buy 10,000 Switches (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#39543561)

I'll never buy 10,000 switches. But, I can't help but think that it would still be better to leverage the decades of research and knowledge of the big "stalwarts" rather than doing my own designs or using the ripped off designs from one of these "ODM"s. Yea price is an issue, but surely you've got enough leverage to get a good deal.

If all else fails just buy Huawei. You get all the technology of a Cisco for dirt cheap and the added bonus of a chinese backdoor in you r network. Who could ask for more?

Re:I'll Never Buy 10,000 Switches (5, Informative)

rgbrenner (317308) | about 2 years ago | (#39543651)

Buy Huawei? How does that work exactly?

1) Foreign companies cannot own more than 49% of a Chinese company. All of those American companies in China? They own 49% of those facilities.. a Chinese 'partner' is required to operate in China.

2) Huawei is a government controlled corporation.

3) Huawei had 28 billion USD in revenue in 2010. Which means (by revenue) it is larger than Facebook, Google, and Amazon. It is 2/3rd the size of Cisco (and has 2x the number of employees). It is 40% the size of Microsoft.

No foreign company is buying Huawei anytime soon.

Re:I'll Never Buy 10,000 Switches (0)

Kalriath (849904) | about 2 years ago | (#39543729)

2) Huawei is a government controlled corporation.

There is no evidence of that. Naturally, the company itself states it is not but there is no way to confirm or deny it one way or the other. I agree with your basic point but you don't help your credibility by posting rumours as fact.

Re:I'll Never Buy 10,000 Switches (3, Informative)

rgbrenner (317308) | about 2 years ago | (#39543977)

There is no evidence of that.

"No" is a strong word. Huawei was founded in 1988 by Ren Zhengfei (he's still the CEO of the company). Right out of University, he joined the People's Liberation Army (PLA) working on military technology. He joined the Communist Part of China in 1978, and retired from the PLA in 1982. He was an elected member of the 12th National Congress of the Communist Party of China (1980's).

Sun Yafang, the chairman of the board, worked at the Ministry of State Security (MSS) Communications Department before joining Huawei [washingtontimes.com] .

In China, companies are not directly owned by the government, but they are controlled by Communist Party members... When people say X is a Chinese government subsidiary, this is what they are referring to (the close ties of the company to the Communist Party).

Re:I'll Never Buy 10,000 Switches (2)

Formalin (1945560) | more than 2 years ago | (#39544957)

If that is the standard you measure to, then certainly many American companies are 'state controlled companies' too?

ex-politicians being in high positions is... pretty bloody common.

Re:I'll Never Buy 10,000 Switches (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#39545515)

It didn't used to be so.

Re:I'll Never Buy 10,000 Switches (1)

isorox (205688) | more than 2 years ago | (#39547273)

If that is the standard you measure to, then certainly many American companies are 'state controlled companies' too?

ex-politicians being in high positions is... pretty bloody common.

No, the state is a subsidiary of many American companies

Re:I'll Never Buy 10,000 Switches (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#39543861)

I meant; buy Huawei equipment, not the company itself.

Re:I'll Never Buy 10,000 Switches (1)

swillden (191260) | about 2 years ago | (#39544145)

Huawei had 28 billion USD in revenue in 2010. Which means (by revenue) it is larger than Facebook, Google, and Amazon

s/revenue/profit/. Google and Amazon both had revenues well in excess of $28B in 2010, but Huawei's 2010 profits were $28B, on $185B in revenues.

Re:I'll Never Buy 10,000 Switches (1)

rgbrenner (317308) | about 2 years ago | (#39544191)

No.. you obviously skipped the conversion from yuan to USD.
http://www.businessweek.com/news/2011-04-17/huawei-2010-profit-gains-30-on-higher-international-sales.html [businessweek.com]

Although, you are right about Google and Amazon: Google $1B in sales more than Huawei in 2010, and Amazon had $6 billion more than Huawei.

Re:I'll Never Buy 10,000 Switches (1)

swillden (191260) | more than 2 years ago | (#39545815)

No.. you obviously skipped the conversion from yuan to USD.

Ah, so I did. Thanks for the correction. I was really floored that Huawei had revenues far in excess of IBM.

USA is loosing the battle!!!! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#39545507)

This is scary stuff. The US has put them selves into a position where 100s of thousands or millions of companies are at risk of being controlled by an off shore country. We need a disconnect switch that can cut off foreign traffic (if we don't have one already) only problem is that instead of just making them with back doors for china's cyber gangs (controlled by the government) they probably make them with self destruct commands, or could be used to cause a cascade event that destroys our economy and much worse I haven't even begun to think of...very very scary indeed!!!!

Re:I'll Never Buy 10,000 Switches (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#39546829)

You realize that all Google and Amazon do is build massive Clos frabrics [wikipedia.org] with commodity chips for their DC networks, right? You know, that concept that came up in the 50's.

Go to any internet exchange and see what equipment they use for the edge: It's all Cisco and Juniper there.

Contrary to popular belief Google does not have magic engineers that do things that are impossible for other companies to achieve. They have very good engineers, like any other big company. They also have plenty of assholes in management, like any other big company.

Not a huge surprise... (1)

fuzzyfuzzyfungus (1223518) | about 2 years ago | (#39543625)

It isn't exactly a huge secret that the network guys(as with the PC guys and others) do a lot of leaning on their OEMs and ODMs, especially for their less specialized lower margin gear. That being the case, it isn't obvious why a major buyer would pay Cisco or somebody just to order the hardware from the subcontractor, slap a sticker on it, and get somebody to churn out an English-language manual.

This would be news if the existing 'manufacturers' hadn't already done much of the work of hollowing them selves out into the marketing and branding arms of the contractors who make the hardware. That VAR stuff is exactly what a large-scale customer wouldn't care much about.

If you need a cargo container of routers (1)

Gothmolly (148874) | about 2 years ago | (#39543657)

Then you're doing it wrong. Cloud is not about who can stuff the most servers in the most racks in the biggest building. That's what everyone is ALREADY doing. Cloud is about the SERVICE - which can in many cases be hosted on big iron.

Meanwhile, we can be sure Azure or whatever it is will come with a nice OOB "management" feature accessible only to certain key groups in China.

Re:If you need a cargo container of routers (1)

Compaqt (1758360) | about 2 years ago | (#39543745)

>That's what everyone is ALREADY doing.

Well, yeah, if "everybody" is doing it, this article is about just those "everybodies".

I mean, not everybody can wear a turtleneck and talk about synergies and sell expensive coffee or phones. Some people have to actually buy and run the ships that bring over those phones and coffee.

Re:If you need a cargo container of routers (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#39543829)

But . . . if you can make IBM big iron on an assembly line like iPhones . . . . . .

JJ

Joyent a big guy? (1)

Compaqt (1758360) | about 2 years ago | (#39543723)

Joyent is being quoted in an article on big cloud players?

I thought they were a niche, expensive virtual/dedicated server provider -- the Starbucks of cloud with the unique selling point being hip graphics/cartoons, all of whom you could imagine going to Starbucks.

(Oops, I just checked, and they moved away from their cool, "CEO is a she" cartoon graphics.)

10,000 couches (4, Insightful)

Dcnjoe60 (682885) | about 2 years ago | (#39543757)

Or, as Joyent's Howard Wu puts it, 'It's kind of like buying couches. If you buy one, you go to a retail store. If you buy 10,000 couches, you go straight to the factory

Of course what Mr. Wu leaves out is that they are going straight to a factory in Asia instead of the American manufacturers (stalwarts, I beleive the summary called them).

Googe, Amazon, Microsoft are all mega-companies and strive to maximize their profits. However, at record unemployment levels in the tech industry, they claim they can't find US workers and have to bring in foreign workers. Now, it appears that US equipment manufactures can't produce enough equipment and they have to again go offshore.

Again, they can do business wherever they want, but the time has come to for them and their shareholders to either decide they want to be an American company with a world wide presence or a foreign company with a US operation.

Re:10,000 couches (1)

fuzzyfuzzyfungus (1223518) | about 2 years ago | (#39543797)

Dirty not-so-secret is that the American 'manufacturers' already went straight to a factory in Asia to get their hardware built. The markup, box art, and possibly the software are the parts done stateside. This is about the cloud people cutting out the middleman.

Re:10,000 couches (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#39547465)

Yeah, this, and it's hilarious. These companies off-shored to cut costs and guess what? 20 years down the road those companies they off-shored production to now have the expertise along with manufacturing base to cut out the companies that moved production in the first place.

Stripping down a company to become simply the marketing arm "middleman" doesn't work in the "enterprise" world as well, because there is no real benefit to some company saying it runs cisco switches except less IT budget for other things. You don't see IT guys walking around flashing their cisco hardware like they are some iphone+ipad carrying hipster, or some dude sporting his new nikes on the basketball court so that style of marketing won't work like it does on the consumer level.

It'll be funny watching as the tech offshoring comes back and bites these companies in the ass because some short sighted moron marketing major decided it'd be a good idea to try and turn their tech company into their industries Nike.

Re:10,000 couches (2)

mspohr (589790) | about 2 years ago | (#39544173)

I believe that Adam Smith's "invisible hand" originally referred to the tendency of companies based in a particular country to favor doing business in that country thus strengthening their home country. Of course, now companies have no loyalty to any country so they will roam anywhere to get the cheapest prices to maximize their profits. There is no more "invisible hand". It's all an open race to the bottom.

Re:10,000 couches - Invisible hand has... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#39544423)

Soon we'll find that the invisible hand will cut off its own wrist given enough chance. Traditional American Companies are too predictable, and are thus incapable of competing with state directed capitalism. this invisible hand seems to be made of 4 middle fingers and a thumb.

Re:10,000 couches (1)

turbidostato (878842) | more than 2 years ago | (#39544583)

"I believe that Adam Smith's "invisible hand" originally referred to the tendency of companies based in a particular country to favor doing business in that country thus strengthening their home country."

Yes. And that tendency was a direct effect that they got better profits that way.

"Of course, now companies have no loyalty to any country"

Nor they did back in Adam Smith times (he also studies the import/export and the export/export cases). It's only the world changed and now companies get higher profits where they didn't before. Their loyalty is exactly where it was: maximizing profits.

"There is no more "invisible hand". It's all an open race to the bottom."

I think you'd find much better reading Adam Smith yourself instead of vague third party memories.

Re:10,000 couches (4, Informative)

mspohr (589790) | more than 2 years ago | (#39544711)

I think you missed my point.
Try reading this Wikipedia section slowly:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invisible_hand#Abusing_Smith.E2.80.99s_statement_of_an_invisible_hand [wikipedia.org]

Smiths invisible hand has been appropriated by others (abused) and expanded (to your meaning above). My point was that his original description and meaning has been lost.

Re:10,000 couches (1)

turbidostato (878842) | more than 2 years ago | (#39546171)

"Smiths invisible hand has been appropriated by others (abused) and expanded (to your meaning above)."

It is curious that the cite you propose makes exactly my point: the "invisible hand" is well and good and works exactly the way Smith proposed.

As your cite demonstrates -and that's the abuse referred, Smith never gave "magical powers" to the "invisible hand" that made it work but to the benefit of society but that, *given some circumnstances* Smith carefully analize, the "invisible hand" tended to work for a society's benefit more times than not.

Current circumnstances are different than those portraited by Smith, except for the "main engine": that everybody moves in their own interest, looking for their own profits (and it is interesting to note that Smith referes too to the fact that most people are not so good about properly identifying the strategies that maximize their own benefit on the long run and that capital operators tend to know better than average where their profits are *but* their benefits are also not usually aligned to those of society as a whole -sounds familiar?) so it is an exercise to the reader to consider if the "invisible hand" on current circumnstances works for the good of society or not.

All in all, my point states: you'd better get to the sources and read "the wealth of nations" yourself instead of using third party interpretations (which, again, happens to be the point of the wikipedia article you cite).

Re:10,000 couches (1)

TheLink (130905) | more than 2 years ago | (#39549613)

The "Invisible Hand" only works well as long as there are significant numbers of people who do enough stuff for the greater good. "Invisible Hand" theory isn't very useful- how it works depends on understanding something that it doesn't really explain.

Q) How many free market economists does it take to change a light bulb?
A) Free market economists don't change lightbulbs, they write their papers in the darkness while waiting for the Invisible Hand to do it.

Re:10,000 couches (1)

the_B0fh (208483) | about 2 years ago | (#39544431)

How the fuck is this insightful? The key here is whether Facebook buys from Cisco who buys from a factory in China, or Facebook buys from the same damned factory in China.

It's the same company in China doing the design and manufacturing.

Record unemployment. You seem to think each worker is the same as another. Competent workers are hard to find. Extremely hard to find. You think Billy Bob who took a class in html will be able to cut it at Google?

No wonder the US is losing its edge.

Re:10,000 couches (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#39546629)

Competent workers are hard to find. Extremely hard to find.

If you can't find them, may be you should move that decimal point in your $7.50/hour salary offer.
Competent workers are easy to find if you are willing to pay market price for them.

Re:10,000 couches (2)

crutchy (1949900) | more than 2 years ago | (#39546891)

its funny how people talk about the bottom line, thinking its about price, only to be burned by cheap crap before realizing the bottom line is really that you get what you pay for

if something seems too good to be true, it usually is

Re:10,000 couches (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#39547901)

The only difference between the two switches, is the label on the box. They are both made it the same factory. What part of that do you not understand?

Re:10,000 couches (1)

the_B0fh (208483) | more than 2 years ago | (#39548631)

This lack of ability to read and understand is why America is on the decline. But these damned idiots are loud. And obnoxious.

Re:10,000 couches (1)

crutchy (1949900) | more than 2 years ago | (#39557325)

i'm australian dickhead, but you're right about americans

Re:10,000 couches (1)

the_B0fh (208483) | more than 2 years ago | (#39560483)

Like Australia doesn't suck at America's teats.

Re:10,000 couches (1)

crutchy (1949900) | more than 2 years ago | (#39565477)

nah we just let them think we do; better than being butt-fucked like all the countries that don't

we don't need to butt-fuck america cos its doing a fine job of butt-fucking itself

Re:10,000 couches (1)

the_B0fh (208483) | more than 2 years ago | (#39568139)

Touché :)

Re:10,000 couches (1)

crutchy (1949900) | more than 2 years ago | (#39557319)

the difference is that the american branded box can be returned if it fucks up. if you buy a cheap imported piece of crap and it fucks up, good luck to you. chinese companies aren't bound by us consumer laws, but with such a simplistic attitude as yours, i wouldn't expect you to understand that.

Re:10,000 couches (1)

the_B0fh (208483) | more than 2 years ago | (#39548615)

Yet another idiot. I was a H1B, and I guarantee you that I was the highest paid person on the team, beating out all the Americans.

At my current place, I pay for performance, and gave one guy a 60% bump over his last place, and another guy over 100% bump (both Americans).

However, I have had to fire people too, for non-performance.

Stop talking using some lame bullet points.

Re:10,000 couches (2)

grcumb (781340) | more than 2 years ago | (#39544813)

Or, as Joyent's Howard Wu puts it, 'It's kind of like buying couches. If you buy one, you go to a retail store. If you buy 10,000 couches, you go straight to the factory

Of course what Mr. Wu leaves out is that they are going straight to a factory in Asia instead of the American manufacturers (stalwarts, I beleive the summary called them).

What did get mentioned, but seems to be overlooked by everyone here, is that one of Google's primary motivations was because they needed a more open and flexible platform than the 'stalwarts' were willing to give them.

The only thing that distinguishes Cisco from the others is their 'secret sauce' - the proprietary elements that make high volume network management easier (and in some cases possible). But that's no longer sufficient to keep some of their biggest customers happy; they want lower-level access to the equipment. Manufacturers, however, don't want to give away the only thing that still distinguishes them from commodity brokers.

I think the biggest news to me is that the commodification of high performance gear has advanced enough to allow someone to rock up to the factory door with a spec and get something decent enough to rely on. This is the same phenomenon we've seen in server operating systems and systems software. There's still room for 'Enterprise' operators to make a buck, but increasingly, companies are realising that, a lot of the time, ordering à la carte makes more sense.

Re:10,000 couches (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#39545051)

>> Googe, Amazon, Microsoft are all mega-companies and strive to maximize their profits. However, at record unemployment levels in the tech industry, they claim they can't find US workers and have to bring in foreign workers. Now, it appears that US equipment manufactures can't produce enough equipment and they have to again go offshore.>>

Can't from a tax and business perspective, not as a practical perspective. The government might possibly get out of the way to solve this issue. Not soon.

JJ

Go East? (1)

rossdee (243626) | about 2 years ago | (#39544079)

Newsflash! The world is round. Asia is to the West of the continental USA

Re:Go East? (1)

mspohr (589790) | about 2 years ago | (#39544181)

... and to the East.

Re:Go East? (2)

grumling (94709) | about 2 years ago | (#39544211)

And east of the prime meridian.

Re:Go East? (1)

shutdown -p now (807394) | more than 2 years ago | (#39544537)

Wait, wait... are you saying that Valinor was the USSR all along, and Mordor was Florida??

60 percent of these ports 10Gigabit Ethernet (1)

grumling (94709) | about 2 years ago | (#39544201)

Well then it makes a lot of sense to standardize on cheap, largely the same hardware. As the article points out:

The switches Google was building typically sat at the top of a rack of servers in the data center, connecting the servers to the rest of the network. As Juniper points out, this is only part of the networking hardware used in the data, but it’s a large part.

So the low level, short haul connections use cheap switches. Makes perfect sense. I'm sure they still need the Ciscos and Junipers to interconnect far-flung data centers and to Tier 1 providers like Level 3 and especially the telcos.

People buy Cisco for 2 reasons: the 4 hour service guarantee and because you can interface just about anything to anything else with them. Two things you don't need in a highly redundant monolithic data center.

Re:60 percent of these ports 10Gigabit Ethernet (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#39546199)

Google has its stuff made to order per their own design. From the "big iron" all the way down to RAM.

Because all of that stuff is just "parts". At Google, datacenters *are* machines, not *full of* machines. And Google makes some massive machines (100MW), filled with a lot of processing units (motherboards), that require very fast communications (network switches).

The motherboards are not what you and I can buy, and the switches (the big ones too) are not what Cisco and Juniper make. Because there are very few companies that have the same specific needs as Google. And it has a high degree of control over the nature of it's staggering volume of data. It can match hardware to data in a way that few companies can (or should). This makes Google's needs a niche market. This is rarely well served by companies making general purpose products.

Google's latest datacenters are what clever engineers design when they have control over the entire stack.

own damn fault (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#39544245)

1) Americans want freedom, liberty
2) Americans adopt capitalism as epitome of freedom and liberty
3) Capitalsm leads to stock markets
4) Stock markets lead to shareholders
5) Shareholders have profit motive
6) Profit motive leads to public companies to maximize margins
7) to maximize margins, you lower costs
8) the east delivers lower cost
9) jobs go overseas
10) Americans bitch about employment flight

Lesson: you did it to yourself by equating capitalism with freedom and liberty

Re:own damn fault (1)

simoncpu was here (1601629) | more than 2 years ago | (#39550363)

Solution:
- Lessen costs by investing in technology. A single robot is more efficient than a thousand underpaid workers.
- Improve quality by investing in research. Your business is less profitable because of Huwawei? No problem, just build a better router and bundle it with quality support.
- Protect your job by investing in education. Indians can easily steal your PHP job, but they will have a hard time stealing your kernel programming job.

How to make companies do the right investment:
- Stop protecting companies. If a company fails due to bad decision, let them fail and die. Don't give free tax money to failures. Encourage successful companies (i.e., companies with good leaders) to take their place.

Have they no sense? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#39544255)

And as we all know, there is no risk of a backdoor in equipment from China.

Thanks, article (2)

Luke has no name (1423139) | about 2 years ago | (#39544271)

Thanks, for telling me exactly how Cisco and Juniper aren't scaling to meet the needs of Google. By "scaling", and without further details, I assume they mean "selling cheaply enough".

Re:Thanks, article (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#39544403)

Thanks, for telling me exactly how Cisco and Juniper aren't scaling to meet the needs of Google. By "scaling", and without further details, I assume they mean "selling cheaply enough".

Cisco has a long history of charging ridiculous prices for their hardware, even for the stuff made in third world countries.

Suck it up Cisco. Bring your prices down to a reasonable level.

Cisco is not a hardware company... (2)

fostware (551290) | more than 2 years ago | (#39544873)

Just take a look at their patents - very few of them are for hardware. Also consider the move to the v15 IOS Universal images.

Cisco have known for a long time that hardware suffer from Moore's Law (loses it's margin quickly) and is easily replicated via ODMs. Lifted software features are a lot easier to litigate against.

The real news (1)

hobarrera (2008506) | more than 2 years ago | (#39545211)

The real news for me here, was that they were using US network equipment, instead of cheaper equipment from elsewhere. I'm honestly surprised!

Thing had seems to be missed (1)

scheme (19778) | more than 2 years ago | (#39545373)

What seems to be missed in most of these discussions is that this network gear that the companies are buying are coming without software. One of the ODMs selling the gear appears to be moving to providing some software that can be put together to provide the necessary OS to do the networking but it sounds like it's still an effort to get it working.

If you're google, amazon, microsoft, etc., it's probably not too much of a problem to get a group of developers together to put together and maintain an OS to run the hardware but I don't really see many other companies deciding that they're going to put together a OS development group to save a few thousand dollars per router.

Re:Thing had seems to be missed (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#39545593)

Or just use linux... i.e stuff like openwrt and put your flavor on it. Its easier than you think.

Just like always, US-designed (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#39545451)

This article is a load of crap. The only difference is that the boxes are being designed by folks other than Cisco, Jupiter, Force10, etc. The parts are the same. Broadcom chips (designed in the U.S.) still dominate.

Re:Just like always, US-designed (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#39546605)

Broadcom chips?!?!
lol

Thanks People (1)

assertation (1255714) | more than 2 years ago | (#39547889)

Thanks Google, Amazon and Microsoft for depriving more Americans of jobs. Maybe the next time I buy a technology product I will return the favor. Why should I put money in your pocket when you aren't willing to do the same for people like me.

Not an Objective Story (1)

sociocapitalist (2471722) | more than 2 years ago | (#39549811)

My experience is that while large companies will use Asian companies for some portion of their network, it's never any of the important parts. Let's break this article down a bit.

"Rivers says. “With the traditional enterprise networking vendors, they just couldn’t get there. The cost was too high, and the systems were too closed to be manageable on a network of that size.”"

Note that the first and only real point is 'cost'. The rest is bullshit.

"The Ciscos and the Force10s build their gear with many of those same manufacturers. Google removed the middlemen." ...goes very well with the spin term "“original design manufacturers,” or ODMs". More bullshit.

"Now, the other giants of the web are running into the same issues, and they too are going straight to Asia for hardware."

Presumably the real issue being cost of course. The western manufacturers of course have addressed every other issue that comes up as these are (were?) their biggest customers.

"As J.R. Rivers serves this market with Cumulus Networks, James Liao is doing much the same thing with a second startup called Pica8, offering networking gear that comes straight from the ODMs."

In other words these guys are trying to sell the Asian kit in the west and are trying to show that it's not crap because the biggest companies are using it. There may be a reason that this is "...one of the best-kept secrets in Silicon Valley." it may be mostly bullshit.

"Martin Casado — the chief technology officier of a third Silicon Valley networking startup, Nicira — confirms that the hardware market is shifting to Asia."

Gee..yet another interested party saying that everyone is shifting.

I stopped reading because the rest is about these startup guys that kicked off the article.

Re:Not an Objective Story (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#39552433)

Your experience is very limited or your a liar.

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