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FBI Says American Universities Infiltrated by Spies

Unknown Lamer posted about 2 years ago | from the cold-war-2.0 dept.

Security 418

An anonymous reader writes, using various bits of the article: "While most international students, researchers and professors come to the U.S. for legitimate reasons, universities are an 'ideal place' for foreign intelligence services 'to find recruits, propose and nurture ideas, learn and even steal research data, or place trainees,' according to a 2011 FBI report. Tretyakov was quoted as saying, 'We often targeted academics because their job was to share knowledge and information by teaching it to others, and this made them less guarded than, say, UN diplomats.' China has 'lots of students who either are forced to or volunteer to collect information,' he said. 'I've heard it said, "If it wanted to steal a beach, Russia would send a forklift. China would send a thousand people who would pick up a grain of sand at a time."' China also has more than 3,000 front companies in the U.S. 'for the sole purpose of acquiring our technology,' said former CIA officer S. Eugene Poteat."

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So it begins (5, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#39628311)

The war on the academic sector. One more nail in our coffin.

Re:So it begins (2, Interesting)

Thanshin (1188877) | about 2 years ago | (#39628621)

The war on the academic sector. One more nail in our coffin.

It's worse than that. It's the next Great American War. The country needs one every decade or it's entire political system crumbles.

The only difference is the movies that will be done about this one. It would be quite nice it China finally switched hollywood from sand war movies to spies, subs and intrigue like in COMMUNISTS! time.

Re:So it begins (5, Interesting)

daveschroeder (516195) | about 2 years ago | (#39628871)

Your last comment comment about China is interesting:

The villain in the remake of Red Dawn was actually switched from China (realistic) to North Korea (ridiculous) [latimes.com] in order to not upset China (and its movie audiences). I guess the producers figured that "vaguely Asian-looking" actors could just as easily be viewed by American audiences as Korean.

There is "sand" involved here, though: heads are nestled deeply in it.

It's interesting that you and the parent AC believe this is somehow a "war on the academic sector". There is indeed a war, but it's not coming from within. First, a backdrop, beginning with the fact that China is on track to exceed US military spending by 2025 [economist.com]:

Chinese Insider Offers Rare Glimpse of U.S.-China Frictions
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/03/world/asia/chinese-insider-offers-rare-glimpse-of-us-china-frictions.html [nytimes.com]

"The senior leadership of the Chinese government increasingly views the competition between the United States and China as a zero-sum game, with China the likely long-range winner if the American economy and domestic political system continue to stumble, according to an influential Chinese policy analyst. China views the United States as a declining power, but at the same time believes that Washington is trying to fight back to undermine, and even disrupt, the economic and military growth that point to China’s becoming the world’s most powerful country."

Asia's balance of power: China’s military rise
http://www.economist.com/node/21552212 [economist.com]

"NO MATTER how often China has emphasised the idea of a peaceful rise, the pace and nature of its military modernisation inevitably cause alarm. As America and the big European powers reduce their defence spending, China looks likely to maintain the past decade’s increases of about 12% a year. Even though its defence budget is less than a quarter the size of America’s today, China’s generals are ambitious. The country is on course to become the world’s largest military spender in just 20 years or so."

China’s military rise: The dragon’s new teeth
http://www.economist.com/node/21552193 [economist.com]

And now on to what's happening every day in US academic and business environments:

How China Steals Our Secrets
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/03/opinion/how-china-steals-our-secrets.html [nytimes.com]

China's Cyber Thievery Is National Policy—And Must Be Challenged
http://online.wsj.com/article_email/SB10001424052970203718504577178832338032176-lMyQjAxMTAyMDAwOTEwNDkyWj.html [wsj.com]

FBI Traces Trail of Spy Ring to China
http://online.wsj.com/article_email/SB10001424052970203961204577266892884130620-lMyQjAxMTAyMDAwNzEwNDcyWj.html [wsj.com]

NSA: China is Destroying U.S. Economy Via Security Hacks
http://www.dailytech.com/NSA+China+is+Destroying+US+Economy+Via+Security+Hacks/article24328.htm [dailytech.com]

Former cybersecurity czar: Every major U.S. company has been hacked by China
http://www.itworld.com/security/262616/former-cybersecurity-czar-every-major-us-company-has-been-hacked-china [itworld.com]

China Attacked Internet Security Company RSA, Cyber Commander Tells SASC
http://defense.aol.com/2012/03/27/china-attacked-internet-security-company-rsa-cyber-commander-te/ [aol.com]

Chinese Counterfeit Parts Keep Flowing
http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/generic/story_channel.jsp?channel=defense&id=news%2Fasd%2F2012%2F03%2F27%2F04.xml&headline=Chinese+Counterfeit+Parts+Keep+Flowing [aviationweek.com]

China Corporate Espionage Targets U.S. Firms
http://www.businessweek.com/news/2012-03-15/china-corporate-espionage-boom-knocks-wind-out-of-u-dot-s-dot-companies [businessweek.com]

U.S. Official on Cyber Attacks: "It's Getting Harder for China's Leaders to Claim Ignorance"
http://www.securityweek.com/uscc-commissioner-cyberattacks-getting-harder-chinas-leaders-claim-ignorance [securityweek.com]

China's Role In JSF's Spiraling Costs
http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/generic/story.jsp?id=news%2Fawst%2F2012%2F02%2F06%2FAW_02_06_2012_p30-419987.xml&channel=defense [aviationweek.com] ...and I could continue. A lot.

But yes, I guess China isn't really a threat, and doesn't view the West as a threat. China is really our "friend", and they don't really espouse ideals dramatically different than those of the West, don't really spam public internet services to suppress what they view as dissent [cfr.org], or ramp up coordinated cyber attacks [securityweek.com], or make their lawyers swear oath to the Communist Party [nytimes.com], or force real name registration on internet services [wired.com], or censor of social networks when deemed necessary [newscientist.com]. (Cue comparisons to things that people think the US has done that are similar, but in reality are utterly nowhere close to anything China has done.)

What is denial called in the face of overwhelming evidence? What is it called when you no longer wish to protect and project your own ideals and interests, believe your own government is working against your interests, and voluntarily capitulate to ideals that are diametrically counter to the ones you purport to uphold? (Cue talk of the "last throes of a dying empire", with people apparently content to believe that if the US didn't exist after, say, World War II, the world wouldn't be a dramatically different place —- and not for the better. You wouldn't have your precious internet for the "free exchange of ideas", either.)

As ugly and imperfect as the US may be, don't you think its principles and ideals and those of its allies are worth protecting?

"Many forms of Government have been tried and will be tried in this world of sin and woe. No one pretends that democracy is perfect or all-wise. Indeed, it has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all those other forms that have been tried from time to time." - Winston Churchill (1874-1965), Speech in the House of Commons, November 11, 1947

Re:So it begins (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#39628769)

Great now i'm a spy because i am a univ student, and a terrorist because i want to apply that knowledge.

underestimated and decades late (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#39628313)

This was a headline for the 1960's. Today its much, much worse - and sadly only now noticed. 3,000 companies? Only? And how many tens of thousands of grain-pickers? China, Iran, you name it - the US and the West are over-run....

Re:underestimated and decades late (4, Insightful)

Savage-Rabbit (308260) | about 2 years ago | (#39628481)

This was a headline for the 1960's. Today its much, much worse - and sadly only now noticed. 3,000 companies? Only? And how many tens of thousands of grain-pickers? China, Iran, you name it - the US and the West are over-run....

Since the 1960s? The Cambridge Five [wikipedia.org] were recruited at university back in the 1930s. This sort of thing has probably been going on as long as there have been universities. I bet the Romans infiltrated Greek universities to steal their latest catapult technology.

Re:underestimated and decades late (5, Insightful)

hairyfeet (841228) | about 2 years ago | (#39628527)

And the simple fact is i'm sure we do the same thing duh! Universities are where one often begins to question the way things are for the first time. You are a young adult, in some ways grown and others not, and many cling to idealism before that lovely jaded cynicism that so many of us have seeps in. Remember its a lot harder to recruit someone who just blindly accepts things at face value, easier when they begin to question why things are the way they are. I do find it ironic that the same things that help someone grow as a person can be labeled as "potentially subversive" depending on which flag you are waving.

Irrelevant example (4, Informative)

Kupfernigk (1190345) | about 2 years ago | (#39628653)

The Cambridge group were not academic spies looking for research and trade secrets. The idea was to infiltrate the Establishment, for which they were well placed. Attendance at a university wasn't relevant; what was relevant was their connections through the Apostles, and the contacts they made.

Incidentally, Kim Philby maintained that he did not spy on Britain for the Soviet Union; he spied on the USA on behalf of both. Perhaps bizarrely to American ideas, the Cambridge group seem to have seen themselves as patriots, helping to protect Britain against American domination. Their motivation was completely different from the Chinese spies in the USA, and the two cases are in no way comparable.

Re:underestimated and decades late (2)

wisty (1335733) | about 2 years ago | (#39628713)

The difference is, Chinese don't often have handlers. They aren't generally spies, but know that if they can knock fo some IP, they can be very successful in a Chinese university.

This is not too different from what other academics do - it's quite common for academics to leave with a USB stick full of the stuff they were working on, which they use in their next gig.

I guess there might be some more active encouragement in strategic stuff.

Re:underestimated and decades late (2, Informative)

Luckyo (1726890) | about 2 years ago | (#39628489)

Almost as if US didn't have far more front companies, students in exchange programs and "N"GOs. for stealing from other nations. This is a norm, and intelligence war for tech has been ongoing for centuries at the very least.

Re:underestimated and decades late (1)

gl4ss (559668) | about 2 years ago | (#39628701)

what's the difference between a legitimate branch of a chinese corporation vs. one of those 3000 out to steal tech and success? friggin nothing.

universities used to spread information to people who come to the unversity! news at 12:00!

Re:underestimated and decades late (1)

flyneye (84093) | about 2 years ago | (#39628857)

Funny, it was the commie professors turning out commie students back then too.
Fewer Chinese, but more hippies.
Guess they gave up on using LSD to get some harmony going. Too bad,I guess expanding their minds doesn't work as well as dumbing them down.

Russian spy (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#39628319)

The first russian spy is Sergey Brin for sure!

World Responds (5, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#39628321)

Virtually all of us are infested with CIA. What's the problem?

Re:World Responds (5, Insightful)

Thanshin (1188877) | about 2 years ago | (#39628465)

There's a clear difference.

The CIA are americans, thus inherently good.

The chinese are:
1 - far.
2 - non white.
3 - non americans.

Thus, they are inherently bad. Now it's just a matter of finding out which kind of bad they are.

Terrorists doesn't seem to match, they are way down on the "terrorist-brown scale". So it's obviously either druglords, or spies.

This month we'll try "SPIES!". It it doesn't stick, we'll try "DRUGLORDS!" next month.

As a last resort, it's always possible to go back to "COMMUNISTS!".

Re:World Responds (4, Insightful)

1s44c (552956) | about 2 years ago | (#39628523)

The CIA are americans, thus inherently good.

Lol. You don't need the rest of the comment, that's funny enough.

Re:World Responds (4, Insightful)

Thanshin (1188877) | about 2 years ago | (#39628595)

The CIA are americans, thus inherently good.

Lol. You don't need the rest of the comment, that's funny enough.

As happens when you watch "Idiocracy" it's funny until you remember how many people actually, seriously, believe that.

I've not personally known any other country wide culture that values its own members so highly.

It might not even be a bad thing if it wasn't for the other side of the coin. "We are mostly good, except for some rotten apples." isn't bad. The problem comes when the subconscious adds "Unlike everybody else."

Re:World Responds (4, Insightful)

1u3hr (530656) | about 2 years ago | (#39628619)

I've not personally known any other country wide culture that values its own members so highly.

Well, appropriately, China does. If and when they get to the top of the economic heap, all of us non-Han will be niggers.

Re:World Responds (1)

Beorytis (1014777) | about 2 years ago | (#39628651)

I've not personally known any other country wide culture that values its own members so highly.

Probably because cultures with that attitude rarely progress beyond the "isolated backwater" stage.

Re:World Responds (4, Insightful)

Tom (822) | about 2 years ago | (#39628833)

I've not personally known any other country wide culture that values its own members so highly.

I do. My grandfather died fighting it. It was called the "Third Reich".

Not a hundred years ago, patriotism to a degree that would alarm us today was pretty much the norm. Germany overdid it, but the rest of the western world wasn't all that much behind. Look at UK or US propaganda films from the early war years.

But, over here in Europe, everyone got the idea of the nation pretty much bombed out of them. Some by the Axis, some by the Allies, a few especially lucky ones first by the one and then by the other. Afterwards, we sat down and said "ok, that was fucked up. Let's not do that again, ok?" - and the idea of the European Union was born.
While we don't have a european identity, yet, and identify as german, french, british, etc. that spirit of Europe is there. And while the german press, for example, calls the greek dirty, lazy bastards, almost nobody in Europe would so much as contemplate the idea of bombing another European country.

But this strong concept of national identity has remained in the US. We Europeans look with bemusement at quirks such as playing the national anthem before national(!) football games. International games, ok we did that. But national games? That simply makes no sense to us. Everyone is from the same country, so why the heck play the national anthem?

Re:World Responds (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#39628617)

Are you chinese?

Re:World Responds (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#39628491)

Do as we say, not as we do.

The japanese (5, Funny)

SmallFurryCreature (593017) | about 2 years ago | (#39628341)

Meanwhile the Japanese would study the beach, then copy it, in miniature.

The Brits would copy it but get all the good bits wrong and make the bad bits worse.

The Australians would make a copy that is just better but they would never stop feeling inferior about it.

The greeks would expect the rest of the world to pay for it.

The saudies would just buy it and see nothing wrong with paying a fortune for sand.

The Germans would dig a hole in it.

The dutch wouldn't feel happy on it until they build a sand castle to protect against the tide.

Apple would put it in a pretty box and sell it for a premium but you could only use it as Jobs intended.

Have I insulted everyone yet? Not on topic? Oh come on, universities have always been a haven for spies and the recruitment of spies. Duh, where else to find information, underpaid people with lots of info and impressionable young minds looking for a cause?

Re:The japanese (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#39628369)

You forgot one part:

The americans would hire any foreigner to research the beach, while they would waste their time with anti-intellectual complains.

Re:The japanese (3, Insightful)

mikael (484) | about 2 years ago | (#39628431)

Patent trolls would sue anyone who had a bit of land that sloped into the ocean.

Re:The japanese (4, Funny)

DarwinSurvivor (1752106) | about 2 years ago | (#39628555)

Patent trolls would sue anyone who had a bit of land that sloped into the ocean, a pool, a pond, a bird feeder, someone's iced tea or any other body of liquid.


Re:The japanese (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#39628537)

Have I insulted everyone yet?

You missed out the French. And the Mexicans.

Re:The japanese (2)

SuricouRaven (1897204) | about 2 years ago | (#39628587)

The Mexicans wouldn't bother to steal it, they just use America's beaches.

The French wouldn't bother, until Britain stole it first. Then they'd want it.

Naval history (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#39628741)

The Brits would copy it but get all the good bits wrong and make the bad bits worse.

Watch any history on the the Aircraft carrier and then post about the Brits. HINT: The US' Naval power has a huge debt to the British.

Also, the things I've been hearing about the F-35; well, the Brits did a bang up job designing the Harrier years before we got to the F-35

Re:Naval history (2)

Viol8 (599362) | about 2 years ago | (#39628825)

Not to mention the small fact that the brits invented the jet engine but gave the design to the US for free for war costs (yes, the US charged the british for the some help in the war whereas the west germans got a nice free rebuild of their society at no cost)

Re:The japanese (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#39628781)

White southerners would divide the beach in two, declare them separate but equal, then dump their sewage on it.

Hindus would declare it sacred to some god and build a temple.

Buddhists would declare it sacred and build a temple.

American Indians would declare it sacred ground, then build a casino.

Italians would declare it sacred and build a casino, cantina, brothel and cathedral.

Re:The japanese (4, Informative)

Tom (822) | about 2 years ago | (#39628789)

You're 50+ years behind the times.

We Germans would put our towels down to mark our spot and then go for breakfast.

Re:The japanese (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#39628801)

I'm still a bit perplexed as to why the Russians would send a forklift to a beach.

Re:The japanese (0)

Viol8 (599362) | about 2 years ago | (#39628849)

Being russian the driver was obviously drunk - he was supposed to stay in the warehouse.

Re:The japanese (0)

game kid (805301) | about 2 years ago | (#39628879)

Close. The Japanese would posterize the beach, draw action lines around it, sculpt breasts on it for wrist comfort, and shout "Oppai bichii...meka toransufaa...GO!!!!! " as they launch it from a giant robot.

Re:The japanese (1)

ACE209 (1067276) | about 2 years ago | (#39628911)

Slightly off topic but that reminds me of an old joke from the DDR.

Question: What would happen if communism gets established in the desert Sahara?

Answer: For ten years nothing - then they would run out of sand.

OH MY GOD (5, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#39628345)

Foreigners are at an university to "nurture ideas" and to "learn"!! CALL THE FBI!!!

Re:OH MY GOD (2, Insightful)

boaworm (180781) | about 2 years ago | (#39628411)

Foreigners are at an university to "nurture ideas" and to "learn"!! CALL THE FBI!!!

Was feeling the same. Isnt this the whole purpose of exchange students?

Re:OH MY GOD (1)

rtb61 (674572) | about 2 years ago | (#39628681)

Considering at one stage defence industries where bitching because they only got second string geeks and nerds because they didn't pay as well as other tech industries and most geeks and nerds have n desire to tie their life to the killing of other human beings.

So when foreign countries donate their geeks and nerds to do US defence research the US spy vs spy types still whine and complain.

When are those wankers ever going to be happy, even if they are spying on all of us all of the time they'd still complain about our secret thoughts and demand mind reading equipment. Those ass hats seem to be working themselves up to declaring martial law and turning the whole world into a prison, just to be safe.

Re:OH MY GOD (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#39628905)

The CIA doesn't want mind reading equipment, they want mind control. Documents from MKULTRA and various other programs suggest they want TOTAL control of the US population in the form of drug dependent and media brainwashed zombies who do as they command. The programs then were pseudoscientific garbage, but the dream today remains the same.

How about sharing? (4, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#39628359)

Seriously, knowledge is supposed to be shared.

As for technology, one could argue that the current patent system is broken. Besides, I personally find it hard to believe that it's necessary for the Chinese to spy a lot on US universities when all the latest gizmos are produced in China anyway.

Re:How about sharing? (1)

mikael (484) | about 2 years ago | (#39628455)

Academics dont always publish their best ideas. Also, usually by the time a paper has been published for method X, they are working on metjod Y. First generation of a project is done with standard components. Second generation uses custom components. Third generation adds a computer control system. Fourth generation does the process automatically. Fifth generation shrinks everything down into single unit.

Re:How about sharing? (4, Interesting)

TheRaven64 (641858) | about 2 years ago | (#39628501)

DARPA has a 10 stage model for this kind of thing where, roughly speaking, stage 1 is 'wouldn't it be cool to be able to listen to all of your music wherever you are?' and stage 10 is an iPod. Typically, universities only do stages 1-4 in this, where the end result is a mostly working proof-of-concept. Corporate research does stages 3-7, where the end result is a working prototype, possibly too big, or with some other serious limitations. Corporate development does stages 6-10, where the end result of the last couple of stages is a shipping product and a revision.

If universities are trying to do stages 5-8 in this model, then that's probably the problem. It means that they're failing badly at technology transfer.

Re:How about sharing? (1)

mikael (484) | about 2 years ago | (#39628711)

UK universities were told to be more like corporations in that they should research, patent and license technology and create "spin-off companies" like their USA counterparts. The phrase "kicking round moneyballs" comes to mind. There was also the income from post-doc students which was around $200,000 per student. Each professor was supposed to have a lab full of students (12 max) each investigating a small part of the project. Combine that with grant applications and they were bringing in serious dough.

Re:How about sharing? (1)

Thanshin (1188877) | about 2 years ago | (#39628479)

Seriously, knowledge is supposed to be shared.

Is it? When did the competition between countries end in your world?

You do realise that we live quite better in the civilized world and we'd like to keep it that way even if it means enslaving the others and killing those who resist, no?

This is not a pretty world. Stop pretending it is. Any rich country will sooner carpet bomb a poor country that lower it's standard of living to reach the average.

Re:How about sharing? (1)

martyros (588782) | about 2 years ago | (#39628495)

Not only are universities infested with FOREIGN spies, they're also infested with CORPORATE spies! Yes, these evil corporations often find that unviersities are the "ideal place...to find recruits, propose and nurture ideas, learn and even steal research data, or place trainees". This must be STOPPED!

Either that, or the universities are doing exactly what they are intended to do, and it should be encouraged.

So what? (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#39628361)

The purpose of universities is to share knowledge. That's why research gets published - for the whole world to see.
Information can not get stolen. Not when it's about copyright and not when it's about research. It can only get copied and doing that generally leads to more knowledge.

Should we believe anything the FBI tells us? (4, Insightful)

0111 1110 (518466) | about 2 years ago | (#39628365)

I don't trust anything the FBI says. Any more than I would trust an announcement from the NKVD (The People's Commissariat for Internal Affairs). What is the purpose of this announcement supposed to be? To induce paranoia and racism against any student whose genetics cannot be traced from Western Europe? Is it something along the lines of "If you see something, say something."? And look where that got us. The persecution of innocent people who look middle eastern or Indian or Pakistani. I think it's clear that our government's vision of an ideal society is to that of East Germany except more racially pure.

The school's campus in Dubai needed a bailout and an unlikely savior had stepped forward: a Dubai-based company that offered to provide money and students.

Simon was tempted. She also worried that the company, which had investors from Iran and wanted to recruit students from there, might be a front for the Iranian government, she said. If so, an agreement could violate federal trade sanctions and invite enemy spies.

The CIA couldnâ(TM)t confirm that the company wasnâ(TM)t an arm of Iranâ(TM)s government. Simon rejected the offer and shut down undergraduate programs in Dubai, at a loss of $3.7 million.

Un-fucking-believable. Paranoia, distrust, racism. It's truly a shameful time to be an American. Yes. College students are a threat. All Iranians and people from Dubai are a threat. Everyone and everything except lily white Americans of pure European descent are threats to our 'national security'. Trust no one. There are conspiracies everywhere you look and only the FBI and CIA can save us. Better increase their funding or we're all gonna die!

Re:Should we believe anything the FBI tells us? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#39628413)

You forgot about the Red Indians, they're still a bit of a threat.

Fifth columnist journalisim (2)

TiggertheMad (556308) | about 2 years ago | (#39628449)

I don't trust anything the FBI says. Any more than I would trust an announcement from the NKVD (The People's Commissariat for Internal Affairs). What is the purpose of this announcement supposed to be? To induce paranoia and racism against any student whose genetics cannot be traced from Western Europe?

OMFG the little yellow people with the funny eyes want to steal everything we own! They are a threat to the AMURICAN WAY OF LIFE, and they would steal that too! They aren't even real commies, they are yellow instead of red!

I too tire of this constant barrage of borderline racist propaganda from the media. While I distrust the motives of the alphabet soup agents, the real culprit is the media. Say the FBI does a study about corporate espionage in China, at the request of a senator or some other asshole in Washington that has hear there is a 'Yellow menace', and wants to know more. They do a report, and find 3k companies that are stealing shit from us. (Aside: 3k companies in a country of 1.5 BILLION people that are illicit, really? BTW, how many companies are in all of China? How do you know they are stealing stuff? How many companies are there in the US that are conducting corporate espionage?) They write the report and that would be the end of it, except some jerk editor throws a story on the wire about how China is stacked 10 people deep with thieves which causes everybody else to believe it too, because the media always tells the truth.

Lets be real here, China has a problem with corruption, and there are some people there stealing stuff and committing IP violations. Guess what, so does every other country in the world. Enough with the propaganda.

Re:Fifth columnist journalisim (5, Informative)

FhnuZoag (875558) | about 2 years ago | (#39628509)

I'd note that the 3k companies claim came not from the CIA, but from a guy who's retired from the CIA in the 90s, and was previously involved in - get this - the Gulf of Tonkin incident.

Re:Fifth columnist journalisim (1)

Joce640k (829181) | about 2 years ago | (#39628563)

The problem is that the people who rob the people to pay for the alphabet soup agents get their info from the newspapers.

Re:Should we believe anything the FBI tells us? (1)

kramerd (1227006) | about 2 years ago | (#39628577)

No one eats 3.7M on suspected racism. There has to be more to this.Take off the reverse tinfoil hat.

Re:Should we believe anything the FBI tells us? (1)

Thanshin (1188877) | about 2 years ago | (#39628605)

No one eats 3.7M on suspected racism. There has to be more to this.

What's the precise amount of money a government has to invest in a threat for you to consider it as proof that the threat is real?



Re:Should we believe anything the FBI tells us? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#39628609)

Yea that last part made me go WTF. Even the CIA couldn't find anything wrong, but hey ... let's go broke and close off an institute of education before we risk getting infected with sand-ni....brown people. USA! USA! :D

Paranoia paranoia paranoia (1)

FhnuZoag (875558) | about 2 years ago | (#39628409)

I'm pretty sure that if China was intent on sending a superspy to steal your celestial mechanics precious bodily fluids, they wouldn't send someone with a space military related publication record, and have him write an article on it available over the internet: http://en.cnki.com.cn/Article_en/CJFDTOTAL-XYZH200901020.htm [cnki.com.cn]

Maybe people should just realise that academics are interested in all sorts of different stuff, that all research publications are gonna be read by someone combing over it in search of military applications, and that if you are actually doing military significant research, you should do it under Darpa or something and security check your staff?

Re:Paranoia paranoia paranoia (2, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#39628441)

I don't know, for years I've been telling the Chinese students at my school they need to relax more, and that America's greatest technology is the weekend. And now they say Foxconn is going to improve worker conditions, coincidence or Chinese spy?

Solution (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#39628415)

Just close all universities and turn them into LDS churches.

Re:Solution (1)

Joce640k (829181) | about 2 years ago | (#39628597)

Make everybody Amish. You'll have less stress, you won't have to worry about gas prices and there won't be any technology for the filthy foreigners to steal.

Plus: In a couple of years their economy will be wrecked because you stopped buying their cheap exported crap. It's win-win.

However (1)

Kupfernigk (1190345) | about 2 years ago | (#39628671)

You will be six feet deep in horse shit. I admire the Amish and respect their principles greatly, but their way of life would not support the current US population (and much of the current Western population don't have the intelligence, skills or motivation to follow it.)

FBI anti-capitalist? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#39628433)

Stealing ideas? So that they can create competing outfits that create the same product more cheaply? Causing consumers to "vote with their wallets?"

Isn't this, like, exactly the sort of thing Adam Smith was dreaming about?

So getting educated is now "stealing technology." (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#39628453)

A better headline might have been, "right-wing blowhard says just what you'd expect a right-wing blowhard to say."

False threats from everywhere (4, Insightful)

roman_mir (125474) | about 2 years ago | (#39628457)

Do you notice how the ideas that there are all these threats from everywhere are invading the public discourse?

There are all these 'stories' about spies, these have been coming out fairly consistently. Anybody remembers Anna Chapman? AFAIC it was a story about a Russian prostitute mistaken for a super-secret spy.

But there are all these other stories, everything, from spies to the idea that there is more racism or sexism than ever, to supposed nuclear threats from Iran and such, take your pick.

In reality of-course there are various political forces that are gaining power from proliferation of ideas that there is this huge division: us vs. them, them vs. us, divide you into international camps, then into race camps and into gender camps, again, choose your poison.

This is a very old trick - divide and conquer, use every bit of negative news and blow it way out of proportion, use any anecdotal evidence to create various false movements, whatever.

It's all done in order to be able to take your attention away from the real problems. How about the fact that Obama was basically an agent of the banks and the ruling elite, very skilfully disguised as a populous movement with ideology of CHANGE - changing what? Changing the way that the government works!

All the while Ron Paul is marginalised, the guy who is building real momentum, a real movement of change - this is scary, this has to be stopped and you know it's being actively fought against by the media and the government and every dollar that is coming from the corporate ruling elite.

Your government and your corporate monopolistic elite are one and the same. Ask yourself: exactly what is fascism? How is it possible that a Republic descends into fascism? Through the little trick of 'democracy' of-course. Democracy is a gateway drug to fascism, democracy comes after republic creates enough freedoms that the economy booms and allows a few to feed the many, allows the many to ask the few to give them more and more without bothering themselves to produce. This is 'bread and circuses' and the politicians are using it very effectively to destroy the very concept of individual freedoms on daily basis.

Notice how they even destroyed the concept of INDIVIDUAL freedoms by introducing the false flags of so called 'civil rights' and 'women rights' and 'minority rights' and whatever else rights. Why am I saying those are false flags? Because all of those people should have the same exact rights, and all of those rights are individual rights, but creating these separate concepts of 'rights' what really is done is that some are given not rights, but privileges, while others are forced into obligations.

And you can't have individual freedoms when some are given something at the expense of others. You NEED a powerful state to ensure that these entitlements are given to some at the expense of others, and that's just another way to 'divide and conquer'.


Closer to TFA: the universities are supposed to be these bastions of free expression of ideas, where non-mainstream ideas can be expressed and looked at without bias, but are they?

Who will it help if the universities end up being 'secured' the way airports are with TSA agents, for example, looking for signs of 'infiltration'?

How about FBI raiding universities with (or without) search warrants, turning papers and files over, breaking hands and throwing charges around? How about military doing it? (don't forget NDAA). What if they find a TERRORIST SYMPATHISER?! Will you ever see or hear from that person again, after all, they are terrorists, otherwise they wouldn't have been taken into the custody in the first place, right?

You think it's too far? Where do you think this is going?

Is this supposed to be news? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#39628471)

I am not an american but anything remotely important is off-limits for Chinese exchange students.

People whine about outsourcing (5, Funny)

guises (2423402) | about 2 years ago | (#39628473)

China also has more than 3,000 front companies in the U.S.

See? That's what you call a job creator. Outsourcing works both ways.

What about multinationals in China? (2)

knorthern knight (513660) | about 2 years ago | (#39628483)

Apple's i-everything devices are manufactured in China (e.g. Foxconn). Not only do they have the final products in their hands, they also have the individual components and the instructions to assemble them. Otherwise, Foxconn's assembly lines wouldn't work. Ditto for smartphones/laptops/computers/routers.

Industrial Espionage (1)

sd4f (1891894) | about 2 years ago | (#39628497)

I think this is an interesting post, because i have been thinking that a lot of countries with spy agencies are going to be stumbling across all sorts of valuable information, and in a nutshell, some of it can easily help an economy or help a country technologically advance. I have no doubt, that the spy agencies do some industrial espionage, and some companies get the benefit of that information.

Paranoia (1)

backslashdot (95548) | about 2 years ago | (#39628513)

Is there a limit to paranoia? I fear there isn't.

Anyone can make up stuff and get themselves paranoid over it. It'll be funny, but then one of these paranoid schizophrenics might eventually get their finger on the nuke trigger. I dont see the point of making enemies with the whole world. I mean, do we really want a war with the Russians and Chinese? Unlike some other countries, they can actually fight back some. Is it worth losing a few million lives over .. still don't care? ... well .. imagine those lives lost were you .. over what .. paranoia and economic issues? If you think the economy sucks now, let's not see how it performs during a nuclear war.

Why bother it's too much work, for china anyway. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#39628565)

They are already getting our technology, their building it. If they want more of it offer free shipping their already making it for us cheap.

Even my Kershaw knife is made in china, but designed in the USA. Says so right on the box, it's actually quite high quality too I may add. The only things I have off hand that aren't made in china is some of my airsoft guns which are made in Taiwan and Japan. And I think my craftsman tools are still made in the US, I think I have to double check. That is about it.

stealing a beach (1)

lkcl (517947) | about 2 years ago | (#39628613)

"If it wanted to steal a beach, Russia would send a forklift."

i attended a security briefing whilst working in a secure environment where i was, rather unusually, going to be going on holiday to china (hence the concern of the company i was working for, and the reason why they gave me the security briefing).

according to that briefing, the description of china's intelligence strategy is correct: yes, china intelligence operatives will simply approach absolutely any chinese citizen and grill them. tourists who happened to be on holiday who took photos of a U.S. naval ship, which contains pictures of the antenna arrays on the top of the ship and so on. and, because of the chinese culture of rote-learning, chinese citizens memorisation abilities are legendary.

russia on the other hand, i was told, would send in sleeper-agents, specially-trained, and activate them as needed, decades later. if you've seen the film "Red", although that's highly specialist area (assassins), it's pretty accurate as to the strategy that's deployed by russian intelligence, generally.

from a different source, i've heard rumour of someone who found out that russia has sleeper agents in british schools. sounds far-fetched, and like all sleeper-agent intelligence operations is easily deniable as "insane conspiracy theory" ha ha ha look what he's smoking. except this guy who found out is - was - an MP - and was getting death threats. he'd come home and find that all the pictures of his family had been turned to face the wall. real comforting stuff.

Re:stealing a beach (1)

FhnuZoag (875558) | about 2 years ago | (#39628715)

Well, I've heard rumours 9/11 was a hologram.

It would be good if you could, you know, name this MP, because I'm pretty sure I'd have heard of it.

More concerned with law enforcement than spies (4, Insightful)

sl4shd0rk (755837) | about 2 years ago | (#39628657)

These days, I'm more afraid of the law enforcement on campus. I'm not aware of spies braining anyone with a nightstick (and stealing their phone) for recording them, or pepper-spraying someone for sitting on the sidewalk.

Hogwash (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#39628659)

'for the sole purpose of acquiring our technology,' said former CIA officer S. Eugene Poteat."

Why would they want to go through all that trouble to "Acquire" our technology when we let them build it at the foxconn factories...

Volume control (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#39628705)

Its too bad they havent stolen the "indoor voice" from us, the Chinese apparently dont realize that if you are sitting next to someone you dont have to shout to be able to convey information.

this is nothing compared (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#39628709)

to the Fifth Columnists infesting our federal government

Protect our National Sand (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#39628737)

The Russians and Chinese are after our sand. Clearly, we must institute screening procedures at all of the entrances and exits of our beaches, deserts, and playgrounds. We must have more TSA to safeguard our National Sand!

Oh hey! (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#39628743)

It's some FUD! I love you Americans, you're so excitable.

The government is also infiltrated (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#39628765)

by grifters and traitors.

whining (1)

Tom (822) | about 2 years ago | (#39628777)

Are we back at the "hippie communist students" stage again, yes? Someone has taken their regression therapy too far.

S. Eugene Poteat is a serial bullshitter (5, Insightful)

FhnuZoag (875558) | about 2 years ago | (#39628779)

I'm 90% certain this 3000 front companies figure is going to appear in a ton of places now. But where the hell does it come from?

Because S. Eugene Poteat is no longer a CIA agent. He's been out of the CIA for over 10 years. So how does he have access to privileged intel on Chinese intelligence activities? How on earth could he, a man whose intel career ended well before the start of this nonsense, know?

The answer is, by my reckoning, he doesn't. It's just a made up statistic. And there's a pattern behind this guy's statements too: he's long been a proponent of the removal of accountability from the intel services.

"Thirty years ago," he wrote, "the Church and Pike Committees bought into the KGB perception management campaigns to discredit American intelligence and proceeded to limit the activities of the intelligence community ..."

Since the Church and Pike Committee hearings are probably not covered in high school history courses, let me remind younger readers that these were congressional committees convened to investigate egregious excesses by an intelligence community that had come to act with little or no external accountability.

The agency' excesses included assassinations, coups detats, revolutionary and counter-revolutionary movements, covert action to influence the elections of friends and enemies alike, mind control experiments that sometimes led to murder, and other behaviors that caused lots of reasonable people to question the agency' unlimited freedom to act without transparency or accountability. The excesses were not about how they gathered intelligence so policies could be set. The excesses were about policies devised and executed in a black box.

Poteat is saying that citizens concerned with that unrestrained behavior were deceived by the KGB.

http://www.commondreams.org/views05/0316-27.htm [commondreams.org]

There's a certain wing of the US who is pushing the intel agenda. By reproducing the cold war, they get more funding and the unlimited powers they always coveted. S. Eugene Poteat's proper title is 'Intellaine security company employee, and lobbyist for greater surveillance powers without civilian oversight'. Don't buy into their bullshit, unless they show their working.

Re:S. Eugene Poteat is a serial bullshitter (1)

ThatsMyNick (2004126) | about 2 years ago | (#39628919)

Because S. Eugene Poteat is no longer a CIA agent. He's been out of the CIA for over 10 years.

Do you work for the CIA? If not, how do you know if Poteat works for the CIA?

The FBI needs more money (3, Insightful)

qbzzt (11136) | about 2 years ago | (#39628837)

Classified research doesn't belong in universities. They aren't equipped to handle information controls. It's that simple.

But the FBI, of course, needs more money to investigate this issue. When the deficit is sky high and government budgets are likely to be cut, it is very important to shout loudly about the importance of your agency.

Compared to Ira*, what is the biggest threat (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#39628839)

Compared to Ira*, what is the biggest threat to the American lifestyle? My guess that no *stan or Ira* country is even close to the threat from the 1 bn headed country.

Shock horror (1)

jonbryce (703250) | about 2 years ago | (#39628845)

Some people go to universities to learn things, rather than, for example, to get drunk every night of the week.

We were always at war with Eastasia. (1)

hessian (467078) | about 2 years ago | (#39628859)

Sadly, it's true: if you're the superpower, you become the police power, and all wrongdoers in the world hate you.

Russia and China have been fighting us via proxy wars for six decades and it's not going to stop until one party wins.

Sheltered nerds (1, Interesting)

benjfowler (239527) | about 2 years ago | (#39628883)

Wow. Lots of people here with their heads up their arses, ranting and raving and foaming at the mouth about "RACIST" this, "RACIST" that, without even the slightest appreciation about how the worlds works.

In your fine, shiny, squeaky clean middle class utopia. people of different races, colours and creeds DO rub along nicely. I see it at work ever day, and saw it at college. Middle class people everywhere have so much in common, a lot of sheltered, privileged middle class kids think that anybody who breaks this mould has something wrong with them. They're usually the same kids out protesting against "racism" and whatnot, not realizing that underclass/working class people of colour despise them, their culture and everything they stand for because they're rich, privileged etc and in their eyes, holding the brown man down. It's the same in Britain, America, France, wherever you go, with large communities of foreign, brown, dirt-poor and very angry people.

The further down the social hierarchy you go, the more sharply divided people are, the more hateful they are, and the more resentful they are, regardless of who they are. Racism, bigotry, mutual suspicion and hatred is a fact of life -- even more so when you're growing up in a bad area or going to a "failing" school. Racism cuts both ways too -- most of the most disgusting bigotry I've seen has been brown-on-brown.

I dislike right-wing skinheads and anti-Semites as much as the next guy, but "anti-racists" and antifas are almost as bad, because they are naiive, and are out "protecting" people who hate them, and would mug them and stove their heads in given half a chance.

Left-wingers, the world is a hateful, unfair place, and crying and jumping down and crying "racist racist RACIST lalaLALALALA" every time somebody says something you disagree with, is not going to change anything. If anything, it drives the hatred into the shadows.

Spying is overrated (1)

InterGuru (50986) | about 2 years ago | (#39628899)

In the latter half of the last century Russia and East Germany had extensive spy networks, probably the biggest in the world. Look what happened to them.

Entropy of information (2)

DarkOx (621550) | about 2 years ago | (#39628903)

Information acts like just about everything else in the universe. Without constantly applied effort and energy it flows from high concentration to lower concentrations.

We as a society need to recognize that its not possible to have it both ways. We are going to be open, and with that comes acceptance, our ideas, invention, imaginary property, etc will be making their way out in to the world; or we can close down and with concerted effort and expenditure we can keep our secrets.

I think history shows us open *is* better. If for no other reason than closed is actually really hard. We'd have to limit what you can buy/sell/manufacture abroad in ways that would probably be the undoing of many of our biggest business when they suddenly lose their foreign plant investments over night. Locking down our boards will push American wages up but it will also push prices of things like agricultural products typically produced with lots of immigrant and alien labor high enough to stave today's poor and impoverish today's middle class.

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