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The Dot in .mars

michael posted more than 13 years ago | from the round-trip-min/avg/max-=-360000/600000/1800000-ms dept.

Space 150

Skynet writes "CNN has a really cool interview with Chad Edwards, manager of the Mars Network Office, about NASA's desire to improve telecommunications to and from Mars. They plan to get a 1MBps link up by 2007. They also discuss the possibility of multiple Internets spread throughout solar system, all interconnected. Very interesting discussion."

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150 comments

Re:Unfortunate fear of Mars (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 13 years ago | (#396257)

Mars lost its magnetosphere a long, long time ago. The internal dynamo that earth has with molten rock swirling beneath the crust quit working in Mars eons ago. This magnetosphere is only one of the many things that is necessary for a planet to keep a stable atmosphere. Without a magnetosphere, fast moving solar particles can strip the atmosphere faster than Rosie O'Donnell taking on a Thanksgiving turkey. Think before you post.

Been there done that (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 13 years ago | (#396258)

They also discuss the possibility of multiple Internets spread throughout solar system, all interconnected. Who's to say that someone somewhere hasn't done it already.

OhmyGAWD!! Mars has been Slashdotted! (1)

Chas (5144) | more than 13 years ago | (#396259)

I can see it now. Next target for a slashdotting? The big Jupe itself! Big planet, little bandwidth!

And what happens to the link if one of the martians decides he wants to hop in on a game of Quake? And what're his pings going to look like from almost 49 million miles away?

U R 0WN3D 3RTHL1NG!


Chas - The one, the only.
THANK GOD!!!

Arg! (1)

BigZaphod (12942) | more than 13 years ago | (#396262)

And I'll probably *still* only be able to get a 28.8kbps connection to the Internet right here on *EARTH*. Grrrr....

Offplanet hosting (1)

stx23 (14942) | more than 13 years ago | (#396266)

Where else could Napster thrive?

Ansible WAP (Re:Good Work.) (1)

PolyWog (17122) | more than 13 years ago | (#396267)

Haha, this is great! It's a lot like the ansible technology stolen from the buggers. Although, I don't think electromagnetic radiation is tough enough to wire a solarsystem.

Although we could probably use our palm pilots on the moon. WAP would finally become standardised! ;) I wonder if there would be any dead zones? Like when the sun passes between you and a digipeater.

Re:Good Work. (1)

jagger (23047) | more than 13 years ago | (#396269)

THe important thing here really is that now we can get a game of Network Doom going with machines on Phobos, Demios and Earth.

sex.mars (1)

umeshunni (37684) | more than 13 years ago | (#396274)

Woopeee... guess i can register sex.mars now and make a fortune on it.

yeah, i think that sounds right (1)

kettch (40676) | more than 13 years ago | (#396275)

It's been a while, but that sounds like most of the basics are right. This concept is what Orson Scott Card used in the Ender books. They had some whatsit doohickey that carried split particles around the universe. However, that device was able to influence the spin of the particles, and it also assumed that the spin of on particle would affect the spin of the article on the other end. It's still cool.
----------------------

Good Work. (1)

FalseDogma (41405) | more than 13 years ago | (#396276)

Sounds good to me, an Internet spread through the cosmos would be great.

You fail the course (1)

wiredog (43288) | more than 13 years ago | (#396277)

All your... [userfriendly.org]

Re:hmmmmm (1)

ZiGGyKAoS (86253) | more than 13 years ago | (#396287)

Would that be a low grav server? :]

This sounds dangerous (1)

biglig2 (89374) | more than 13 years ago | (#396288)

I can see the scenario, the first sattellite is connected to the internet, there's a post here, it gets slahdotted and falls out of the sky, destroying Dayton, Ohio.

Latency of 30 minutes (1)

Ryu2 (89645) | more than 13 years ago | (#396289)

as described in the article. Oh well, I guess we can forget about interplanetary Quake games for the time being...

Multiple Internets (1)

SuperguyA1 (90398) | more than 13 years ago | (#396290)

Actually I believe it would be multiple intranets.
Since internet would refer to the entire connected
network. But still SCHWEET.

At last (1)

Motor (104119) | more than 13 years ago | (#396294)

An interplanetary internet...

I can finally finger Uranus!

Don't mod me down, I've waited years to make that joke.

Re:I'm skeptic about it (1)

Coriolis (110923) | more than 13 years ago | (#396296)

Er...wrong. If you have a routable IP address, you're connected to the Internet, period. Latency is irrelevant (You Will Be Assimilated).

Otherwise, I'd be interested to know where you'd draw the line, particularly speaking as someone who started out on a 2400 line 8-)

Re:We can use something like this too! (1)

eellis (112890) | more than 13 years ago | (#396297)

That way, as new technologies come along, we'll be able to make changes to the underlying physical infrastructures without disturbing the protocols that are already in place
How is this different to the 7 layer model? [irost.net]

New evidence of low-level life on Mars (1)

Molt (116343) | more than 13 years ago | (#396298)

Finally scientists have discovered conclusive proof of simple life on Mars with the recent photos of a collection of used AOL CDs buried deep under the Martian soil

Scientists at NASA are now providing these with broadband capacity to see if they'll troll Slashdot, or if they're actually intelligent.


Re:I'm skeptic about it (1)

boldra (121319) | more than 13 years ago | (#396299)

I think the idea is that the probes talk to each other using TCP/IP. What better way for projects developed by seperate governments desiring a high level of secrecy to cooperate?

I hope they come up with some good hostnames :) pathfinder.nasa.mars or scoperta.esa.mars ... ?

Re:Umm... (1)

DavidpFitz (136265) | more than 13 years ago | (#396301)

Who is English? Not me! I just live in England. I admit, that choice may make me stupider than actually being English... but none the less, I am not English.

Re:Sounds like a good idea, but.. (1)

nandix (150739) | more than 13 years ago | (#396303)

That 8 minute delay only means that the link would not be useful
for real-time or on-line applications.
Still, e-mail could be used together with a messaging system (perhaps XML) to perform tasks such as
system monitoring and alert dispatching.
i have done this myself with machines that can't
talk to each other except through e- mail due to firewall restrictions and it works just fine.
In fact, using something like SMS anyone could
have an alert delivered to his/her cellphone if something goes wrong up there.

Hrm... (1)

TermAnnex (154514) | more than 13 years ago | (#396306)

Houston to Shuttle: Uhhh, we are showing unusually high network traffic, is there a problem?

Shuttle Astronaut 1: Ahh! I got owned!

Shuttle Astronaut 2: Ahahaha Frank, like my rocket launcher?

Shuttle Astronaut 1: Ohhh, you just wait, I'll get you, you little shit.

ZZZZZZZZZZZZT!

Shuttle Astronaut 2: Ouch! Thats cheap, you llama, lightning guns are for newbies!

Houston writes off the mission. The astronauts make a record for the first space based quake3 server and costing NASA millions of dollars on caffinated beverages and freeze dried pizza.

Re:Umm... (1)

green pizza (159161) | more than 13 years ago | (#396307)

good point

heh (1)

green pizza (159161) | more than 13 years ago | (#396308)

bash-2.04$ ping -i 100000 pathfinder.mars

heh. bash-2.04 eh? change your damned string, to your hostname or something actually interesting.

Re:split laser and manipulating end points (1)

bbuda (168824) | more than 13 years ago | (#396310)

Here's my understanding of how this works: yes, we have been able to use such a technique to transfer information about a wave of light faster than the speed of light (look here) [slashdot.org] . However, this experiment required a specially prepared chamber; I'm not sure if such a thing could be done through the void of space. At lease not yet. All your Mars are belong to us.

this makes me feel awful (1)

mrWrong (175845) | more than 13 years ago | (#396312)

mars will probably get DSL before I do, too: they're getting a faster download rate and no one even lives there.

Don't forget the phone service (1)

ballpoint (192660) | more than 13 years ago | (#396313)

Why not re-use the existing technology and set up an Iridium or GlobalStar cluster around Mars ? In a next step a GSM network can be installed. While Mars has the disadvantage of not having preexisting tower structures, there are no inhabitants whining about the danger of ' radiation' yet. I bet future Mars dwellers will be more than happy to pay for cellular and long-distance charges.

Re:Sounds like a good idea, but.. (1)

crazney (194622) | more than 13 years ago | (#396314)

yer, i love it when it takes 8 minutes for my streaming video to pause, and another 8 minutes for it to start again :-)

Re:Been there done that (1)

irony nazi (197301) | more than 13 years ago | (#396315)

I think that Jeff Bezos has a patent on multiple Internets spread throughout solar system. I hope that NASA isn't infringing on Amazon.com's IP.

Unfortunate fear of Mars (1)

Cliffton Watermore (199498) | more than 13 years ago | (#396318)

It's great that more attention is being paid to Mars now, but the fact is that NASA could have already made Mars viable for at least semi-sustaining human life by now 20 years ago. It's a simple scientific process to convert CO2 (Carbon Dioxide) to Oxygen by removing the Carbon in a laboratory enviroment. Now, considering the mass and size of Mars, and the fact that the atmosphere is 95% CO2, it would have taken around 5 years to oxygenate the atmosphere. So if NASA had have got their act together in 1980, people could be living there by 2007, nevermind putting in internet links. No - don't get me wrong. I have the highest respect for NASA, but it seems that the American government is not giving them enough funds and is not allowing them to do half of what they should be allowed to do.

webserver on mars? (1)

mx90 (203711) | more than 13 years ago | (#396319)

Well now that they have webserver on a chip (http://kyllikki.fluff.org/hardware/wwwpic2/ [fluff.org] ), how about allowing student groups to send up a few of these on the next mission to mars? How about slashdot.mars (ok, more than a few chips).

Re:split laser and manipulating end points (1)

jfonseca (203760) | more than 13 years ago | (#396320)

hi, well i've heard of a certain hyperlight antenna that supposedly sends data faster than light. it is on the ibm site for strange patents if you care to search.

but the light phenomenon you just explained is a bit too sci-fi to me...anyway i dropped my physics course to program computers, so i guarantee you i don't know what i am talking about.

an engineer told me the antenna worked internally faster than light, but in the end the transmission from one point to another added up to something close but slower than light.

still einstein hasn't been proved wrong. if there's ever concrete proof of speeds higher than light a lot of what einstein did will have to be reviewed, possibly for being dead wrong in his basic assumptions!!! he based everything in a constant speed of light - the c of mc2.

i guess you know all this...just wanted to point out i'd seen such an antenna...

I like his honesty ... (1)

MRossland (216576) | more than 13 years ago | (#396322)

about how these projects might not translate into Earth based solutions. I think it is much better for NASA to sell the planets and the raw scientific discovery rather than promises that "if we do this on Mars, then it will solve all of Earth's problems." Too often I hear people say that they support the space program because of the possible benefit it can have on Earth. While a truck load of products and research has can out of the space program, I feel that we benefit much more from the knowledge and understanding that comes from learning about our universe rather than nifty new heat resistant tiles.

Electricity, Newton's Cradle and field effects (1)

jabber01 (225154) | more than 13 years ago | (#396325)

Isn't this how electricity works? When you put current into a wire, you are adding electrons on one end and removing them on the other, but it is not the same electrons.

Electricity is 'faster than light' in that, when you turn on a generator, electrons can flow throughout the circuit instantaneously, without 'filling up' the wires with charge.

This is the same as the Newton's Cradle executive toy where you drop one ball on one side and it's momentum bumps up a ball on the other side.

So the point stands, there is a significant delay in sending a signal between Earth and Mars. But, if the existing medium between the two can be manipulated, and the effect of that manipulation be observed and decoded, the communication delay might be overcome.

Are variances in magnetic or gravitational fields instantaneous?

The REAL jabber has the /. user id: 13196

More likely to be .mars.sol (1)

MarsOrBust (236830) | more than 13 years ago | (#396326)

If you want more technical data on the InterPlanetary Internet then check out the IPN section on SpaceRef [spaceref.com] . I might also point out that TLD will most likely be linked into .sol. ICANN which is now headed by Vint Cerf will not be creating the .mars TLD anytime soon. I have that on a very reliable source. You can look for the first test in space of the IPN this summer. As well the IPN will be used on the 2003 Mars twin rover mission.

Re:Good Work. (1)

Beowulf_Boy (239340) | more than 13 years ago | (#396327)

No, you UT with really cool map where your one the Space-Station over Mars. That would kick A$$

Re:Great. (1)

Beowulf_Boy (239340) | more than 13 years ago | (#396328)

Actually, I believe lag will be about 10-12 minutes, or their about. So you'll have no problem faxing your Mars office, but wouldn't want to talk to them. I know it takes an hour for a signal to get to Jupiter, I just don't remember how far Mars is from Jupiter.
If anyone wants a good interesting but short book on Mars, good "The snows of Olympus" Buy Arthur C. Clarke. IT has some really cool pictures done with a program for the amiga called Vistapro.

Why not .moon first? (1)

frleong (241095) | more than 13 years ago | (#396329)

Why don't they create something that is nearer and where ping times are still acceptable at our beloved moon first? At least, moon is still reachable and when the remote control stuff doesn't work, theoretically, they could still send a couple of people to fix things.

What we need is birth control... (1)

fmaxwell (249001) | more than 13 years ago | (#396330)

I heard some frightening numbers on population growth and the answer isn't more space, it's less breeding. India's population alone is growing by 300,000+ per week. Instead of paying Catholics under a "faith-based initiative" program, we should be arresting their missionaries as international terrorists for preaching against the use of birth control in third world countries.

Re:split laser and manipulating end points (1)

Arkleseizure (251525) | more than 13 years ago | (#396331)

Just starting to get the hang of quantum wierdness too. Does anyone know if it is feasible to use an entangled state for instantaneous communication?
I know that quantum teleportation can only work at the speed at which you can transfer normal information. In this case, you interact a particle with one of the entangled ones and then pass a couple of bits of information through a normal communications channel. These bits, along with the other entangled particle can be used to generate a particle whose state is the same as the original. However, here it is clear that in addition to the 2 bits of ordinary information (communicated conventionally) some kind of information is passing directly between the entangled particles, presumably instantaneously. Can this be used to communicate?
I guess using the simultaneous state-vector collapse of the 2 pairs of particles when one is observered couldn't really be used as a communications channel as the observervation would destroy the entanglement(?)

Can it have a top level country code now too? (1)

Zocalo (252965) | more than 13 years ago | (#396332)

I suppose the argument that you can't register the ".mars" TLD because there are no sovereign representatives of the state concerned may now be moot [slashdot.org] as well; so it really will be "ping astronaut@lander.mars"!

Of course, ICANN are probably going to try and claim that a 4 billion year old fossilized microbe doesn't count as a "sovereign representative".

Nitpickers!

Re:Great. (1)

BSOD Bitch (260492) | more than 13 years ago | (#396333)

Quake3 would be hell.

Internet 2 (1)

MacLover (303839) | more than 13 years ago | (#396334)

So what if the Matians got Internet,too??? If they even do have .Coms and IP addresses we'll have big problems connecting the 2 worlds because everything will allready be owned by the other side. Will they have to change to .co.mars or .com2 ???

Hold your breath (1)

Caid Raspa (304283) | more than 13 years ago | (#396335)

NASA could have already made Mars viable for at least semi-sustaining human life ... it would have taken around 5 years to oxygenate the atmosphere.

The air pressure on Martian surface is less than 1% of the normal Eath sea-level values. Normal human body has a temperature of 310 Kelvin, so a human in an "oxygenated Martian atmosphere" would boil to death before running out of oxygen.

Re:Hold your breath (1)

Bobo the Space Chimp (304349) | more than 13 years ago | (#396336)

People don't boil in outer space, much less in the atmosphere of Mars. Nor do they explode from pressure changes (excepting lung damage, perhaps, if you try to hold your breath in.)

Re:Guess what (1)

the_Brainz (308534) | more than 13 years ago | (#396338)

You doubt very correctly.

Re:1MBps? (1)

vidarh (309115) | more than 13 years ago | (#396339)

Latency isn't that critical for throughput. Latency may affect how long it is before you get a specific set of data, but not your ability to keep sending and receiving data at high speeds continously.

For applications that require frequent exchanges of data back and forth, achieving high throughput may not be feasible with that latency, but for applications that only care about pushing a high amount of data one way, and getting occasional confirmations of what arrived ok and what needs to be retransmitted, it should work fine.

Beowulf cluster of planets? (1)

freeweed (309734) | more than 13 years ago | (#396340)

With a latency measured in minutes, this sounds suspiciously like my master plan to make a cluster of 7 million Atari 2600's, with their 1Mhz cpu and 256 BYTES of ram!!!

Why Mars??? (1)

xkenny13 (309849) | more than 13 years ago | (#396341)

Why bother communicating with Mars??? I thought Venus was the one with all the chicks... :-)

Is nasa using compression? (1)

Jay-P (313566) | more than 13 years ago | (#396343)

I'm just curious, is NASA using using compression to receive that information faster.. I think some kind of built-in RAR compression for example they could Rar it, Zip it, Rar it, Zip it, Rar it, Zip it, they could develop that mechanism in their satellites or robots to bring down a 500kbyte image to say 15kbyte. Just curious if someone knows.

More info on howstuffworks.com (1)

lessgravity (314124) | more than 13 years ago | (#396344)

check out this article on how an interplanetary internet would work: http://www.howstuffworks.com/interplanetary-intern et.htm

Great. (1)

JesusFish (316074) | more than 13 years ago | (#396347)

So lag will now be minutes instead of seconds. As if it wasn't bad enough already.

That settels it!! (1)

jpetzold (319053) | more than 13 years ago | (#396351)

We need to develop sub-space comunication so we can quake with people on Mars in real time.

Re:Good Work. (1)

cappyg00k (320278) | more than 13 years ago | (#396352)

Quaking from Mars would own. And this time, someone complaining about packet loss due to solar flares would actually be a legitimate excuse.

Re:Sounds like a good idea, but.. (2)

Chexum (1498) | more than 13 years ago | (#396355)

.. I can't really think of a practical purpose for it, except for perhaps e-mail...

Yes, in the light of more than a few seconds turnaround (basically anything in space further away than the Moon), nothing but email would survive as a communication form. It is however, very suited for much larger delays too, I have some unanswered email in my inbox dating back a few years... (I mean to reply soon...).

OTOH, nothing prevents us to come up with something email like, but utilizing video technology.. Sending a new message is trivial, just press record, and at the end, stop it, the interesting bit comes when replying. I hope MS dies when we need this tech, or you'll see "Original message follows" at the end of your partner's video, and you can see your own again :)

Seriously, imagine a better way, you see your girlfriends face as she hears your message, she pauses, and tells the stories, and then unpauses to go on..

Of course, the personal communications are not the single form you need from Mars (and obviously, in the first years, we won't have any), but most of it can be reduced to a form of offline, spooled data transfer. UUCP anyone? It (or some flashback of it) is very easily suited for bulk, offline data transfer. You could just program the local machinery to transfer data to be sent to a central spool machine, which then sends it away to Earth (or Pluto, for that matter). It's not internet, really, but IP need not be thrown away; and locally (ie. on Mars), TCP/IP is just as efficient, and well-working as here for us.

For the real bulk transfer, something else would be needed than TCP, imagine that any missed packet can get reported only many minutes later, and you don't want to restart the connection then.. Add a bit forward error correction, and large buffering to cope with minutes (millions) of un-acked packets, and here we go.

Shall I work on this, or let your billions of tax dollars work on this for a few years to get this built? :)

split laser and manipulating end points (2)

Barbarian (9467) | more than 13 years ago | (#396356)

Okay, maybe this is totally out to lunch. But I've heard stuff like this before. Any idea if this is legit or not?

If you split a beam of polarized light, and then do something to one (i.e. rotate the polarization), supposedly you can detect it on the other one, and it's instantaneous (i.e. faster than light). So what if you split a powerful laser somewhere equidistant from Mars and the Earth (try finding a place like that!), and had stations on both ends...could you communicate faster than light in that fashion?

Or have I been mislead?

Re:Martian Chronicles happens now (2)

peter303 (12292) | more than 13 years ago | (#396357)

Even sadder is 2001:Odyssey.
Both are technically and economically possible,
but we lack the societal will.

Yes (2)

peter303 (12292) | more than 13 years ago | (#396358)

Nasa saved the Galileo Probe after its main
attenna failed using compression. The emergency
back up attenna has like one percent of the capacity of the main attenna or about the speed of Morse code.
Every couple months Galileo passes by one of
main moons and stores a dozen or two pictures
on the tape recorder. Then it transmits them
in compressed form over a day per image.
The Galileo computers were reprogrammed from
Earth to implement compression after attenna
failure.
Galileo acheived 70% of its objectives in the
main mission, and was extended several years.
The bottleneck to extension is not the resources
on Galileo but time on the Deep Space Network.
This is less of a problem due to the Mars probe
failures.

Martian Chronicles happens now (2)

peter303 (12292) | more than 13 years ago | (#396359)

When re-reading Ray Bradbury's seminal work
recently, I niced most of the dates were
between 1999 - 2006.

The University of Mars? (2)

PenguinX (18932) | more than 13 years ago | (#396361)

So if we will have a 1mbps line to Mars will we still need PAWS to be so flexible? Will I finally be able to send mp3's to the University of Mars? Personally I was hoping for sftp or scp - but all I've ever heard about is ftp to the UM.

[if you don't get it read linux/net/ipv4/tcp_timer.c]

Re:Unfortunate fear of Mars (2)

kramer (19951) | more than 13 years ago | (#396362)

What kind of crack are you smoking?

Yes it's a simple laboratory process to turn CO^2 to Oxygen, but there are several problems.

First the average atmospheric pressure on mars is about 5 milibars. That means the atmosphere is 1/200th as thick as earths. Even if *ALL* the CO2 were converted to O2, it would still be about 1/200th as thick. This of course ignores the fact that a pure oxygen atmosphere is a bad thing fire-safety wise.....

Second, it's cold as hell there. Average temperatures on Mars make Antarctica look like the Bahamas.

Third, mars is a PLANET it's going to take a hell of a lot of effort to make it habitable. It's not going to be done in 20 years, it likely won't be done within any one person's lifetime. The most optimistic estimates I've seen are 100-400 years assuming technologies not yet developed. Many estimates are in the greater than 1000 years range.

If you want to know some real facts instead of just spouting crap, try reading Robert Zubrin's "The Case For Mars [amazon.com] ".

It includes a whole chapter on terraforming mars. Plus chapters on the technologies needed before we can send anyone to Mars.

Re:Line 365 from net/ipv4/tcp_timer.c (2)

powerlord (28156) | more than 13 years ago | (#396363)

He just mentioned that they were going to translate it to an IP stack :)

Personally I vote for ICP/IP

(Interplanetary Control Protocol over IP)

or maybe TCP/IP/ICP :)

Re:Martian Chronicles happens now (2)

powerlord (28156) | more than 13 years ago | (#396364)

yes... but he had people landing there.

Kernel source throws doubt on these claims... (2)

mav[LAG] (31387) | more than 13 years ago | (#396366)

From net/ipv4/tcp_timer.c:
/* Increase the timeout each time we retransmit. Note that we do not increase the rtt estimate. rto is initialized from rtt, but increases here. Jacobson (SIGCOMM 88) suggests that doubling rto each time is the least we can get away with. In KA9Q, Karn uses this for the first few times, and then goes to quadratic. netBSD doubles, but only goes up to 64, and clamps at 1 to 64 sec afterwards. Note that 120 sec is defined in the protocol as the maximum possible RTT. I guess we'll have to use something other than TCP to talk to the University of Mars. PAWS allows us longer timeouts and large windows, so once implemented ftp to mars will work nicely. We will have to fix * the 120 second clamps though!*/

Re:Sounds like a good idea, but.. (2)

spudnic (32107) | more than 13 years ago | (#396367)

When you're stuck on a space station on mars for a year, porn is good no matter how long it takes to download. ;)

Re:Umm... (2)

wiredog (43288) | more than 13 years ago | (#396369)

Weel, that is pretty much the definition of 'internet'.

We can use something like this too! (2)

kahuna720 (56586) | more than 13 years ago | (#396370)

Interesting how they plan to translate all this to a standard IP stack, described in the article a bit vaguely as thus:

"We're working on developing a layered architecture that would allow us to move data from point to point without worrying about the fine details. That way, as new technologies come along, we'll be able to make changes to the underlying physical infrastructures without disturbing the protocols that are already in place. So we'll have a layering of how we flow information across some infrastructure that lets us evolve it in time and accommodate technology infusion without having to scrap our investment."

This technology could be of great use to those in rural and/or remote areas here on Earth, especially where habitat and conditions are most demanding (Lord knows, broadband is currently beyond their reach in most cases..).

Additionally, if they can really pull this off, it could be the next NASA "killer app" like Velcro/Teflon/Tang/etc., improving their profile in the public eye dramatically by developing new "space-age" technology with everyday usefulness. Nice!

_

Re:Unfortunate fear of Mars (2)

jacoplane (78110) | more than 13 years ago | (#396371)

Don't you think that before we actually decide to terraform this place, we should investigate it thoroughly first? Sure, we could try to head the place up by dumping a few nuclear reactors there, changing the atmosphere, but it would also mean that we could never investigate it in it's original form. And, with NASA saying they found life on Mars, that might just be worth doing no?

Re:OhmyGAWD!! Mars has been Slashdotted! (2)

Motor (104119) | more than 13 years ago | (#396372)

And what're his pings going to look like from almost 49 million miles away?

Probably a lot like any AOL user.

Re:Sounds like a good idea, but.. (2)

Richy_T (111409) | more than 13 years ago | (#396373)

It sounds nice, but I can't really think of a practical purpose for it, except for perhaps e-mail...

Or IRC. 8 minutes lag is nothing compared to what you can get on IRC.

Rich

Umm... (2)

DavidpFitz (136265) | more than 13 years ago | (#396376)

Umm... doesn't multiple interconnected internet's just equal 1 internet?

Re:split laser and manipulating end points (2)

nick255 (139962) | more than 13 years ago | (#396377)

AFAIK the method you suggested is still an area of research. It's all got to do with quantum entanglement. When a property of a quantum system is measured it is forced to take a fixed eigenstate of the measurement operator. If this quantum system has recently interacted with a different quantum system (effectivly making them one quantum system) when one of the particles is measured and forced to take a fixed value so is the other system. Experiments have been done (I think) to show that the fixing of states happens instantly, although generally it is thought this method can't be used to transmit information as to find out what information was transmitted you would need to know what reading the person making the first measurement got. Don't take my word on this though as I'm only starting to get the hang of the quantum world.

Ah-hah (2)

green pizza (159161) | more than 13 years ago | (#396378)

I knew it wouldn't be long before a cable modem comment was mentioned.

interesting though (2)

green pizza (159161) | more than 13 years ago | (#396379)

kinda makes you wonder that with such a long mission, would NASA allow its astronauts to bring along porn? (seriously)

tugging a rope (2)

green pizza (159161) | more than 13 years ago | (#396380)

It's easy for me to understand that particles themselves (in this case electromagnetic energy) cannot travel faster than the speed of light. Thus, the large amount of "lag" between Earth and Mars.

However, would it be possible to do something similar to the following poor example? If not, please explain.

1) String a rope between two points, one near Mars, one near Earth (yes, I realize the problems this would cause due to orbits and whatnot).

2) Rather than sending electromagnetic energy between the two points, simply "tug" on the rope. Rope only has to move a few millimeters rather than billions of miles.

Please note that I have never taken a physics class... and it shows.

other possibilities? (2)

green pizza (159161) | more than 13 years ago | (#396381)

Are there any other crazy concepts for transmitting data faster than the speed of light? Perhaps something along the lines of the "Rope Trick" [slashdot.org] I suggested a few threads back?

I'm amazed... (2)

green pizza (159161) | more than 13 years ago | (#396382)

...that more bandwidth-ignorant people aren't already wondering why Mars doesn't at least have a 2.0 Gbit/sec link since they themselves are able to get 4.5 Gbit/sec from their local cable company in Omaha, Nebraska.

Re:Sounds like a good idea, but.. (2)

CaptainAlbert (162776) | more than 13 years ago | (#396383)

Hang on, did I hear that right?

We can't think of a practical purpose for the ability to communicate arbitrary information between two different PLANETS with an 8-minute delay?

There are still lots of practical uses of first-class mail, which takes about a day to deliver non-arbitrary information 50 miles!

It's certainly a situation which terrestrial communications haven't had to face up to very much; even current satellite relays only give a delay of a few seconds. The increased latency means you have to use better FEC techniques rather than relying on an ARQ retransmission system, but the basic principles are still due to Shannon (RIP).

Most of the trouble faced by communications software and hardware stems from operating in a regime of limited bandwidth or continuously changing router loading, rather than high delays. But as the article points out, scientists have adressed these problems on previous space missions, and the techniques are firming up to make the whole thing more interoperable.

Now we just need to work out how to colonise the planet, before we completely destroy our own one :-\

Re:Sounds like a good idea, but.. (2)

Chops (168851) | more than 13 years ago | (#396384)

For our deep-space links, we're dealing with many issues that can cause the IP stack to break down, like a lot of latency, intermittent links and high bit-error rates because of very low signal strength. We can encounter latency approaching more than 30 minutes on the link from the orbiter back to Earth, for example. We borrow a lot of the concepts of Earth's Internet but come up with protocols that will work in this deep-space application.

D00D U CAN JUST USE UUCP
UUCP ROKS MY DAD HAS A DIAL UP 4 EMALE
/Q


.
/QUIT

up your ass (2)

oingoboingo (179159) | more than 13 years ago | (#396385)

i wonder what will happen as the human race expands into the outer reaches of the solar system. do you think any company will really want to be known as "the dot in .uranus?"

This will finally drum up interest in Mars mission (2)

tenzig_112 (213387) | more than 13 years ago | (#396387)

Before we had a decent Net connection, few Americans thought the idea of a manned Mars mission made a lot of sense. Who would want to be away from their pr0n for that long?

But the idea of trolling from Mars should sound intriguing enough to the average American that people might actually get interested in it again.

red sand beach party 2010 [ridiculopathy.com]

www.munich.de > traceroute www.stuttgart.de (2)

RedLaggedTeut (216304) | more than 13 years ago | (#396388)

www.munich.de> traceroute www.stuttgart.de
traceroute to www.stuttgart.de, 60 hops max, 40 byte packets
1 www.munich.de (111.111.111.111) 2 ms 1 ms 1 ms
2 munich.dtag.de (212.183.251.1) 2 ms 1 ms 1 ms
3 boned.dtag.de (212.183.1.1) 12 ms 11 ms 11 ms
4 HH-gw10.usa.net.dtag.de (212.183.3.1) 22 ms 21 ms 21 ms
5 nyc-gw13.usa.net.dtag.de (212.183.3.1) 342 ms 341 ms 341 ms
6 devil01.apdfw.com (204.181.126.82) 400 ms 321 ms 511 ms
7 madmax.ft-monroe.cmpu.net (204.181.110.10) 291 ms 160 ms 320 ms
8 cisco.2501-2.deepspace.net (204.181.110.1) 4261 ms 4280 ms 4291 ms
9 ftmadmax.net.mars (204.181.110.10) 4210 ms 4200 ms 4241 ms
10 23-189.orbital.nasa.gov (128.183.50.1) 8222 ms 8221 ms 8221 ms
11 rtr-cne-e.gsfc.nasa.gov (128.183.50.1) 8222 ms 8221 ms 8221 ms
12 rtr-wan1-cf.gsfc.nasa.gov (128.183.251.1) 8222 ms 8221 ms 8221 ms
13 rtr-internet-ef.gsfc.nasa.gov (192.43.240.36) 8226 ms 8224 ms 8224 ms
14 sl-mae-e-f0-0.sprintlink.net (192.41.177.241) 8227 ms 8325 ms 8318 ms
15 sl-bb5-dc-6-1-0.sprintlink.net (144.232.8.25) 8341 ms 8347 ms *
16 sl-bb3-dc-4-0-0-155M.sprintlink.net (144.232.0.6) 8329 ms * 8348 ms
17 144.232.8.113 (144.232.8.113) 8351 ms 8343 ms 8340 ms
18 sl-bb1-atl-4-0-0-155M.sprintlink.net (144.232.1.198) 8340 ms * 8361 ms
19 sl-bb5-fw-1-0-0.sprintlink.net (144.232.8.98) 8386 ms 8384 ms 8379 ms
20 sl-bb1-fw-4-0-0-155M.sprintlink.net (144.232.1.150) 8386 ms 8385 ms *
21 sl-gw13-fw-0-0.sprintlink.net (144.228.30.17) 8387 ms * *
22 sl-comp-3-0.sprintlink.net (144.228.137.14) 8391 ms 8390 ms *
23 sl-stuttgart-1-0.sprintlink.net (144.228.138.14) 8391 ms 8390 ms *
24 www.stuttgart.de (222.222.222.222) 8391 ms 9040 ms *

Trace complete

ping Mars.sol (2)

jabber01 (225154) | more than 13 years ago | (#396389)

Mars is alive

Well, I guess that answers THAT question.

The REAL jabber has the /. user id: 13196

Sounds like a good idea, but.. (2)

Karma Sink (229208) | more than 13 years ago | (#396390)

Mars is 4 light minutes away from the earth. Even if we had things working at light speed, there would be an eight minute delay between a request and a response... It sounds nice, but I can't really think of a practical purpose for it, except for perhaps e-mail...

Only one problem: NO ONE LIVES THERE!!!! (2)

fmaxwell (249001) | more than 13 years ago | (#396391)

This sounds like something being pushed by the DSL providers -- who only seem capable of providing broadband where it isn't needed.

Seriously though, the data rate of 1Mbps is pretty pathetic. I have a cable modem that is faster than that. I am writing communications firmware for a satellite that will be relaying data back to Earth at over 20 times that speed via X-band. If we want broadband, let's really get it rather than settling for something that will be saturated shortly after deployment.

MOL and Marslink (2)

fmaxwell (249001) | more than 13 years ago | (#396392)

Quick, someone trademark Mars Online, MOL, and Marslink.net.

And the first message from Mars will be... (3)

Alik (81811) | more than 13 years ago | (#396394)

d00d! w3 0wn j00! @ll y0r r0v3r R b3l0ng 2 us!1! PH34R 0UR M4D SK1LLZ!!!!

Re:Only one problem: NO ONE LIVES THERE!!!! (3)

Megane (129182) | more than 13 years ago | (#396396)

It's a lot easier to talk to a geosynchronous satellite a couple of miles up than it is to talk to another planet that's not only millions of miles away, but isn't even always visible from whatever side of Earth happens to be pointing in its general direction. Even with a worldwide network of tracking stations, sometimes Sol or Luna gets in the way.

Just imagine being on Mars and being unable to read /. for a whole week because Earth and Mars are on opposite sides of the sun. Will you be tough enough to survive it?

Re:split laser and manipulating end points (4)

Zachary Kessin (1372) | more than 13 years ago | (#396397)

No what you do is get a very long noodle, you put a Rabbi on one end and touch the other end with a bit of pork or shrimp, I believe Tryef is in fact faster than light. So now you have a faster than light signaling system.

How you streach a noodle from Earth to Mars is left as an exercize for the reader.

Isn't .mars a bit of an Ameriocentric name? (4)

Mozai (3547) | more than 13 years ago | (#396398)

*shudder* I apologize for the word "Ameriocentric."

When domain names were drawn up for nations, we used ISO 3166, which was agreed upon by people who don't only speak English. Germany isn't .ge, it's .de for Deutchland.

Granted, we don't know the Latin spelling of what Martians call their home planet (nevermind their native tounge), but I find it hard to believe that "Mars" is the only name for that particular moving star in the sky.

Italian, Spanish, Romanian: "Marte"
Czech: "Smrtonos"
Arabic (the language that many stars are named in) "Merrikh"
Hebrew: "Ma'adim"
Mandarin: "Huoxing"
Japaneese: "Kasei"

Most languages seem to agree on using an "M" sound to start the word. Perhaps we should use the .ma domain? or would that suggest that residents of Massachusetts, USA, are not of this Earth?

http://www.seds.org/nineplanets/nineplanets/days .h tml for further reading.

Re:Sounds like a good idea, but.. (4)

Jules Bean (27082) | more than 13 years ago | (#396399)

So why don't you read the article, then?

Of course, you're absolutely right about the latency. But latency doesn't adversely affect, for example, the transmission of pictures, geological data, or even streaming video.

Jules

hmmmmm (4)

Jailbrekr (73837) | more than 13 years ago | (#396400)

bash-2.04$ ping -i 100000 pathfinder.mars
PING pathfinder.mars (208.56.123.4): 56 data bytes
request timed out
request timed out
request timed out
64 bytes from 208.56.123.4: icmp_seq=3 ttl=245 time=86603.712 ms
request timed out
request timed out

Would be kinda cool to set up a quake2 server at mars, even thou the ping would suck.....

I'm skeptic about it (4)

darkwhite (139802) | more than 13 years ago | (#396401)

Ultimately, we could see a spaceborne Internet that could revolutionize how people work in outer space, just as the Internet is changing our more prosaic Earth-bound life.

I'm sorry, but having 4 or 5 probes on an extremely high-latency link, probably not directly connected to the Internet, does not qualify to be part of the Internet. It will be decades before anything beyond low earth orbit will attain enough connectivity to really become connected to the Internet.

Don't get me wrong, I'm fascinated by NASA's Deep Space Network and everything, but we're not there yet. Hell, even the combined bandwidth of all low earth orbit satellites is miniscule compared to ground links.

Line 365 from net/ipv4/tcp_timer.c (4)

OpCode42 (253084) | more than 13 years ago | (#396402)

* Increase the timeout each time we retransmit. Note that
* we do not increase the rtt estimate. rto is initialized
* from rtt, but increases here. Jacobson (SIGCOMM 88) suggests
* that doubling rto each time is the least we can get away with.
* In KA9Q, Karn uses this for the first few times, and then
* goes to quadratic. netBSD doubles, but only goes up to *64,
* and clamps at 1 to 64 sec afterwards. Note that 120 sec is
* defined in the protocol as the maximum possible RTT. I guess
* we'll have to use something other than TCP to talk to the
* University of Mars.

So maybe we're a while off, eh? ;-)

-----

Oh, that's just dandy... (4)

Talkischeap (306364) | more than 13 years ago | (#396403)

Somehow I don't see this as all so wonderful...

Mars is going to get broadband before I do out here in the stix, damn!

It's NOT fair I tell you...

Re:tugging a rope (5)

stevelinton (4044) | more than 13 years ago | (#396404)

This is actually quite an insightful question.

The problem is that when you tug on a rope what you actually do is send a "wave" of compression and stretching down the rope, and it takes time for the wave to reach the other end and be felt.
The same happens if you push on a rod.

The speed of this wave is determined by the stiffness and mass of the rope or rod. The stiffer and lighter, the faster it travels. So, you say, make your rod or rope stiff enough and light enough and it should travel faster than light!

In fact you can't do that. The stiffness of a rope or rod is determined by the strength of the forces between the atoms that make it up, which are determined by electromagnetic effects (same as light). The fact that these effects only transmit information between the atoms at the speed of light puts an absolute limit of how stiff a rope or rod you can make, and ensures that the waves always travel slower than light.

Ping time (5)

weave (48069) | more than 13 years ago | (#396405)

Chad Edwards, when asked about the possibility of online gaming to Mars, said that they were concerned about high ping times. Edwards did say that they are confident, however, that their ping times will be lower than those currently enjoyed by players on Blizzard's battle.net service.

Re:split laser and manipulating end points (5)

kievit (303920) | more than 13 years ago | (#396406)

You have probably read something somewhere about the EPR paradox and the Aspect experiments, which are key ingredients in discussions about the interpretation of quantum mechanics. This is a delicate subject, even many physicists will make errors when trying to explain it. I will also, I am sure, but I count someone will correct me (I actually hope somebody skilled in foundations of QM will comment on this, I am only an experimental nuclear physicist).

EPR (Einstein, Podolsky and Rosen) considered a correlated pair of particles with spin. E.g. when a neutral pion (spin zero) decays into two photons, the spins of the two photons must be opposite (conservation of angular momentum). Spin is always measured along a polarization axis, with only two possible answers, say + and -.

In the case where both spins are measured along the same axis you know what the measurement will read as soon as you know one of them, namely the opposite. If the two axes are under an angle, quantum mechanics gives a simple formula for the probability that the measurements will give opposite answers (cos^2 of half the angle between the axes, or so).

If you would assume that the actual direction of the polarization was already determined in the middle (when the pion decayed), then you can show that this probability distribution must have a certain property (the illustrious 'Bell inequality'), which is *not* fulfilled by the quantum mechanical prediction. Then Aspect actually tried it out (and it is a very difficult experiment) and lo & behold, QM was right and hence the 'actual spins' (which is a vague concept) are *not* determined in the middle but at the moment of the measurement, and hence the information about the *other* measurement travels faster than light, instantaneous even.

The sad point to note for your superluminal lasercommunication is that you cannot *influence* the information. It is Nature who decides the direction of the spins. So the answer to your question is 'No, in that fashion you cannot communicate faster than light'. Information can be superluminal, influence cannot. For communication you need to be able to influence the information.

With your measurement you can predict what the other would measure if the polarization axis there would be chosen (anti)parallel to yours. You cannot tell from your (measurements) the direction of the other polarization axis, which is what you were suggesting. If, for instance, one (the sender) would keep its polaxis constant and the other (the receiver) would do a series of measurements with the (wrong) idea that due to the correlation you should see an angular dependence; well then, pity, you would measure in any angle + and - equally often (with some random deviations). The QM correlation only tells you whether the other one will measure the same or the opposite, if you would *already*know* the other axis.

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