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French Elections Could Affect HADOPI, ACTA

timothy posted more than 2 years ago | from the strategic-surrender-in-order-sometimes dept.

Piracy 153

bs0d3 writes "From having a position in the development and support of ACTA, to implementation of HADOPI, to imposing an internet tax to pay for music; France has been at the forefront of anti-piracy legislation. This week, it has been announced that current President and anti-piracy advocate Nicolas Sarkozy is unlikely to win the next election. His leading opponent is a man named Francois Hollande. Hollande has in the past opposed both ACTA and HADOPI (France's 3 strikes law). Hollande believes that ACTA, 'originally intended to combat counterfeiting trade[,] was gradually diverted from its objective, in the utmost discretion and without any democratic process.' At the same time, Hollande is also strongly against piracy. 'Piracy has been costly,' Hollande said, 'but I do not think that law enforcement alone is the answer to the problem.' Will internet issues be of concern to the voters in France? It certainly is to the rest of us internet users."

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Too early to tell (4, Interesting)

Jedi Alec (258881) | more than 2 years ago | (#39765793)

Considering Sarkozy got only 1% less of the vote than Hollande in the first round, it's far too early to call it. All the folks that voted for other candidates will pick 1 of the 2 in the next round, and considering the massive amount of votes that went to Le Pen...we might very well be seeing more of Sarkozy.

Re:Too early to tell (5, Interesting)

rsborg (111459) | more than 2 years ago | (#39766113)

Considering Sarkozy got only 1% less of the vote than Hollande in the first round, it's far too early to call it. All the folks that voted for other candidates will pick 1 of the 2 in the next round, and considering the massive amount of votes that went to Le Pen...we might very well be seeing more of Sarkozy.

There are a lot bad signs for Sarkozy. For one, this is the first election in France's 5th republic where the sitting president didn't come out on top in the first-round popular vote [1]. Another is that Sarkozy has yielded his platform to the extreme right - this not only transfers power in the hands of Le Pen, but will piss off many of the non-extreme right wing voters. He has a very tough fight coming up, and I predict, barring any last-minute gimmicks/scandals, he'll lose it.

[1] http://www.vanguardngr.com/2012/04/hollande-beats-sarkozy-in-french-first-round-voting/ [vanguardngr.com]

Re:Too early to tell (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#39766929)

the merkins will step in to save the day for 'democracy' as they allways do. late of course after the socialists have allready won.

Re:Too early to tell (4, Informative)

cheesecake23 (1110663) | more than 2 years ago | (#39766165)

Considering Sarkozy got only 1% less of the vote than Hollande in the first round, it's far too early to call it. All the folks that voted for other candidates will pick 1 of the 2 in the next round, and considering the massive amount of votes that went to Le Pen...we might very well be seeing more of Sarkozy.

Maybe, but according to exit polls in round 1 [parismatch.com] , the 18% who voted for Le Pen are only leaning 48/31 for Sarkozy over Hollande, while the 11% who voted for Mélenchon are leaning 83/6 for Hollande over Sarkozy. The poll shows Hollande leading by 9 points, 54.5% vs 45.5%.

Re:Too early to tell (5, Insightful)

znrt (2424692) | more than 2 years ago | (#39766243)

Considering Sarkozy got only 1% less of the vote than Hollande in the first round, it's far too early to call it. All the folks that voted for other candidates will pick 1 of the 2 in the next round, and considering the massive amount of votes that went to Le Pen...we might very well be seeing more of Sarkozy.

true. besides, even if hollande got to power he would pretty soon change his mind on the subject, like any and every other european leader has done. it would just take a few phone calls, if at all necessary. the only difference would be that while sarko just barks, hollande would dish out some justifying bland rethoric. these matters just float high above politics.

that not to mention that nowadays any socialist party in europe could be as socialistic as, say, us democrats. with some exceptions in scandinavia, maybe. if real political change in europe does not come from a social revolution, don't expect it before the next generation of politicians pitches in. if at all.

Re:Too early to tell (4, Interesting)

Luckyo (1726890) | more than 2 years ago | (#39766413)

There is one difference though. To Sarkozy, piracy and copyright infringement is personal because of his wife. To Hollande, it's business as usual.

Re:Too early to tell (1)

phantomfive (622387) | more than 2 years ago | (#39766895)

. if real political change in europe does not come from a social revolution, don't expect it before the next generation of politicians pitches in. if at all.

I'm curious what sort of change you're expecting to see. Confiscation of property from the wealthy? Minor pension changes? Because I guarantee there will never be a social revolution based on copyright. 90% of the people don't care about copyright issues, and half of those that do are satisfied as long as they can pirate.

Re:Too early to tell (2)

Anonymous Brave Guy (457657) | more than 2 years ago | (#39767299)

Because I guarantee there will never be a social revolution based on copyright.

There will be if they actually start cutting off substantial numbers of people from the Internet, particularly if a significant proportion of those people didn't actually commit the crimes they are accused of but got punished extra-judicially anyway.

Re:Too early to tell (1)

phantomfive (622387) | more than 2 years ago | (#39767345)

True, that would be hilarious.

Right to be left.. (5, Interesting)

uhuru_meditation (2573595) | more than 2 years ago | (#39765829)

If only Germans would get rid of Merkel and Dutch of their freaky Wilders things in Europe would already look a lot different and imported ideas of "freedom" from USA including SOPA, CISPA would be laughed at and rejected with an ease. Soon...

Re:Right to be left.. (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#39765899)

yea and all Frenchmen smell bad, and all Brittan have bad teeth, and all Germans are shit eating psychopaths, do us all a favor and the next time your on one of your walks, just jump off a bridge

Re:Right to be left.. (4, Interesting)

Dekker3D (989692) | more than 2 years ago | (#39765903)

As a dutchman, I'm telling you that plenty of us would be happy to kick Wilders out of the country-... or better yet, launch him on a one-way trip to space if we can. But we can't seem to get him out of our politics democratically because a lot of christians vote for him out of fear of muslims.

Apparently, for some of us any muslim is worth losing all common sense over. I guess.. that's some bonus points to them muslim-folks?
Seriously though, this deserves a huge facepalm.

Re:Right to be left.. (1)

uhuru_meditation (2573595) | more than 2 years ago | (#39766119)

Well, there was this bold guy, Pim, prevented in time to enter the parliament and mess up The Netherlands...not that it was very democratic, but it was surely very effective.

Re:Right to be left.. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#39766147)

Hey now, you're just stating facts: murder is a very effective tool.

Re:Right to be left.. (1)

uhuru_meditation (2573595) | more than 2 years ago | (#39766207)

It wasn't murder. It was a "political anomaly correction".

Re:Right to be left.. (4, Interesting)

MtHuurne (602934) | more than 2 years ago | (#39767283)

Was it effective? I doubt Wilders would have become as popular as he is if Fortuyn were still around. At least Fortuyn was remarkably honest for a politician, while I get the impression that Wilders is playing one big popularity game. The problem is not Wilders himself, but that a large number of people vote for him.

Re:Right to be left.. (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#39766139)

As a dutchman, I'm telling you that plenty of us would be happy to kick Wilders out of the country

In other words, you disagree with the majority of your voters? You sound like a particularly bitter political person one who blames the majority of your countrymen's as being fearful idiots who simply vote for someone for one obviously bad reason. I somehow doubt that's the real truth behind it, as it comes off pretty much like American politics and how one political party endlessly describes the other, including the "they fear Muslims" line.

And regarding this topic, one would have to be ignorant if you think Francois Hollande would change coarse on Internet laws. It's an election campaign speech. What do we think he's going to say? Agreeing with the current president isn't going to differentiate him and gives no reason for someone to vote for him over the current guy.

His solution of "oh, police alone can't solve the problem" is a typical non-answer. Just like Sarkozy was elected on a wave of "this guy is different" (not unlike Obama) he proved to be more of the same (or worse according to some people).

I did enjoy riding to Chicago so my wife could vote at the French embassy though. I find their election processes interesting in comparison to the US. It's interesting to see so many choices to vote for, but it always ends up being a 2 party choice anyways. Except, you end up with Le Pen's father getting the second highest votes because the 8 other candidates split the votes to widely that you ended up with a choice of "Modern Nazi" or Jaque Chirac, who wins in a landslide because almost no one actually wants a neo-nazi for president.

Re:Right to be left.. (3, Insightful)

Thiez (1281866) | more than 2 years ago | (#39766173)

> In other words, you disagree with the majority of your voters?

The majority of voters did not vote for Wilders, so what's your point again?

Re:Right to be left.. (0, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#39766197)

as it comes off pretty much like American politics and how one political party endlessly describes the other, including the "they fear Muslims" line.

Yeah, why don't you visit the heavily Muslim districts of France sometime and see if you want that where _you_ live. Which districts? The ones where even the police are afraid to go. Muslims do not assimilate into the nations they move into. They don't go to France because they want to be French. They don't go to America because they want to be Americans. They go someplace and insist that everyone accommodate _their_ customs. They also outbreed the local population by a large margin. Soon several European countries are going to lose their ethnic and cultural identities and will resemble a Middle Eastern Arab nation.

There is nothing bigoted about wanting to retain one's own ethnic identity. Bigotry is when you want to retain your ethnicity but you don't want another group to have theirs. I want everyone to retain theirs. Muslims don't. Multiculturalism is most promoted by secular Jews who own most of the mainstream media but oddly enough they don't themselves practice it. That's American politics right there -- every foreign culture that you're nice enough to allow into your country is better than yours and more important than yours and more worthy of preservation than yours, because you're the oppressive white man even if you never oppressed anyone.

Muslims are just like the Chinese - they are in it for the long haul. They don't mind planning decades into the future. That is why we will probably lose the culture wars to both of those because they are more strategic.

Re:Right to be left.. (4, Insightful)

psiclops (1011105) | more than 2 years ago | (#39766453)

Funny, cause of all the muslims i know, none of them in this country (Australia) seem to have an issue with me eating non halal food, or not covering up everywhere, or well anything. I'm sure they exist, just like there exists white australians who go around beating up people of different cultures. i just tend to not associate with people like these.

Perhaps if you weren't so afraid of speaking to people of a different culture, you would have a different view.

assimilation is a slow process. people in one country who all come from another country/share a religion will tend to band together simply because they share something in common. as time passes (generally a couple of generations) there is more mingling between cultures.

i have never heard of these culture wars you speak of and i do not believe in their existence.

Re:Right to be left.. (0, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#39766495)

Perhaps if you weren't so afraid of speaking to people of a different culture, you would have a different view.

Yes, afraid. Fear. That is the only reason anyone would ever disagree with a calm enlightened person such as yourself. Why, if you are heterosexual and have no problem with gays but do not wish to see two gay men having sex, you must be a homophobe! Yes only fear could explain that. Just like if you have no real problem with Islam but you do not want your nation taken over by foreign people with a foreign culture and a foreign religion, why, that could ONLY ever possibly be because of fear. It certainly couldn't be that you like your culture the way it is, oh no. Fear. If you disagree with me you are fearful and irrational. Right?

You are obviously ignorant about the heavily Muslim parts of France. Read about it sometime before you decide to talk about it, you will come across as someone much better able to be taken seriously, to put it nicely. There are entire sections of cities where any non-Muslim who tries to walk down the street will be treated with violence and hostility. Even the fucking police are afraid to patrol those areas. There is something wrong with you if you welcome that with open arms. But hey if you like that sort of thing and think it's A-OK, please visit France and go to those areas. Sounds like you would be no great loss to the rest of us.

Re:Right to be left.. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#39767369)

Give it time. When they have the numbers, you will be assimilated.

Baroness Warsi in the UK (3, Insightful)

Kupfernigk (1190345) | more than 2 years ago | (#39768291)

We actually have a UK politician who goes around saying exactly that. She is a Muslim from the North of the UK, who goes around (literally - she tours the country) telling Muslim groups that they have to accept that the UK has a Christian heritage and that won't change, that they need to accept it, move away from tribal practices and assimilate as successfully as progressive Jews have done.

The amount of hatred she gets directed against her is impressive, But almost all of it is from white men, including members of her own political party. For every "backward" Muslim in the UK, I suspect we can produce at least 10 equally backward white Brits.

You would think that demonising the Muslims would take the pressure off the Jews, the previous candidates of people like the GP for planned world domination. But in their minds it's simple - white people of nominally Christian background should naturally rule the world, so anybody else is a threat. At least, unlike the USA, in this country you can be openly gay or an atheist and still get elected to political office.

Re:Baroness Warsi in the UK (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#39768447)

Because, ofc, we all know it's the CHRISTIANS that plan on taking over the world

Re:Right to be left.. (4, Informative)

Incadenza (560402) | more than 2 years ago | (#39766379)

As a dutchman, I'm telling you that plenty of us would be happy to kick Wilders out of the country

In other words, you disagree with the majority of your voters? You sound like a particularly bitter political person one who blames the majority of your countrymen's as being fearful idiots who simply vote for someone for one obviously bad reason.

You know there are countries that have more than two political parties? Where you can 'win' an election (with the most votes) because you are the largest minority?

In the last Dutch election Wilders got 24 of the 150 seats in the Dutch parliament, making his party the third largest party in Dutch parliament (behind the VVD - 31 seats - and the PvdA - 30 seats). Hardly a majority isn't it?

Re:Right to be left.. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#39766449)

I don't speak Dutch, so I can't say for certain that "plenty" and "majority" aren't synonymous in that language.
Perhaps you could enlighten us?

Re:Right to be left.. (4, Interesting)

interkin3tic (1469267) | more than 2 years ago | (#39767281)

In other words, you disagree with the majority of your voters?

I think in any democracy, from time to time, we all agree with Churchill when elections don't go the way we think they should: "It has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all the others that have been tried."

Re:Right to be left.. (1)

interkin3tic (1469267) | more than 2 years ago | (#39767273)

I vote that we start working on a chemical weapon which can be deployed over key electorate areas on election day which will temporarily prevent people from voting based on paranoia and irrational fears.

But THEY are probably expecting that...

Re:Right to be left.. (1)

Neil Boekend (1854906) | more than 2 years ago | (#39768277)

They are planning it.

Ecstasy (1)

Kupfernigk (1190345) | more than 2 years ago | (#39768295)

It already exists. Some research suggests that Ecstasy is a gateway drug to more socially liberal attitudes. Why do you think so many politicians are so afraid of it?

Re:Right to be left.. (1)

BenoitRen (998927) | more than 2 years ago | (#39768389)

Maybe if the other politicians wanted to talk about and deal with the issues that arise between muslims and other people. Like the homophobic muslims that give homosexuals shit in public. I'm not saying that what Wilders wants to do is right, but he wants to do something. That's why people vote for him.

Re:Right to be left.. (4, Informative)

PartyBoy!911 (611650) | more than 2 years ago | (#39765977)

Well Wilders has messed up the current coalition at least: http://www.rnw.nl/english/article/dutch-government-brink-collapse [www.rnw.nl] Geert Wilders has withdrawn his partyâ(TM)s support for the Dutch coalition government and has called for new elections. Prime Minister Mark Rutte says new elections are now very likely. But we don't know how many votes he'll get next round. Currently they are down 5 seats to 19 in parlemant in the poll's.

Re:Right to be left.. (2)

MtHuurne (602934) | more than 2 years ago | (#39767155)

As much as I dislike most of Wilders' ideas, his party did vote for network neutrality and against ratification of ACTA.

After this weekend's events, I don't think any other party is eager to having Wilders as an ally any time soon. So while he'll continue to create noise in the media, at least we can get a new government that is not held hostage by him.

Re:Right to be left.. (2, Insightful)

Neil Boekend (1854906) | more than 2 years ago | (#39768307)

He, most probably, voted for network netrality because he knew it wouldn't fly anyways and doing so would gain him popularity. He also proposed a closing of the borders for Polish workers, just because he couldn't get it done anyways (European law and all that. Internationally it wasn't a wise plan), in order to gain publicity.

Politics is a game to him.

I am glad our kabinet crashed. There is no conceivable way the next kabinet will be as unstable and insane as this one (Wilders wasn't really in the kabinet and managed to change that position into a position of power where he could controll a lot, insane as that is)

Re:Right to be left.. (1)

JaredOfEuropa (526365) | more than 2 years ago | (#39768109)

Soon? Hardly. Too many parties in the Netherlands are in favor of ACTA, or will support it out of political expediency. And that goes for a lot of similar issues. It's pretty sad that for many 'digital' rights, we have to turn to the left. Our Liberals (here it means something like very soft core libertarians; they are centre-right) never really got these issues, and they've gone from bad to worse in the last 2 years of governing.

Still, it's not enough to make me vote socialist ...

Police not enough? (0, Flamebait)

c0lo (1497653) | more than 2 years ago | (#39765865)

'Piracy has been costly,' Hollande said, 'but I do not think that law enforcement alone is the answer to the problem.'

If law enforcement is not enough, bring in the Inquisition... or Schutzstaffel.

Re:Police not enough? (3, Insightful)

Shoe Puppet (1557239) | more than 2 years ago | (#39765923)

Confusing France and Nazi Germany is just fucking dumb.

Re:Police not enough? (1)

SteveFoerster (136027) | more than 2 years ago | (#39766211)

Well... Marshal Pétain did it, and a lot of others besides.

Pétain (1)

Kupfernigk (1190345) | more than 2 years ago | (#39768343)

No he didn't. Learn some history. In WW1, Pétain alone of all the commanders was horrified by the loss of life and did his best to reduce the exposure of soldiers to trench warfare, even rotating much of the French army through Verdun so that nobody would have to spend too long at the Front. He made peace with Germany in WW2 because he did not want a repetition of the destruction. Pétain never supported the Nazis; he tried to minimise their impact. After the war he was vilified by the Resistance, which was understandable, but he seems fundamentally to have been a good man who did his best for France as he saw it. Unless you have taken the trouble to study WW1, especially Verdun, I don't think you should aim casual smears at Pétain.

Re:Police not enough? (1)

c0lo (1497653) | more than 2 years ago | (#39766275)

Confusing France and Nazi Germany is just fucking dumb.

You reckon? [phphosts.org]

You mean a group of organisations [wikipedia.org] which don't shy away of using lies to see the law passed is better in your eyes, eh? After all, SS was equally a "protection squad"... even if the subject of protection was not quite the interest of the part [wikipedia.org] of the German society that preferred democracy and freedom of expression... Besides, you know?, shit will happen [wikipedia.org] when the things are rushed [techdirt.com] by organisations showing little respect [zeropaid.com] for due process.

Re:Police not enough? (1)

MurukeshM (1901690) | more than 2 years ago | (#39766493)

Let's just conveniently ignore Spain, shall we, and invalidate any argument by calling in Godwin's Law?

Re:Police not enough? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#39767285)

Let's just conveniently ignore Spain, shall we, and invalidate any argument by calling in Godwin's Law?

The second part I agree with, for the first part consider that the inquisition was a Europe-wide phenomenon, and definitely affected France as well (cf. "Jean d'Arc").

Re:Police not enough? (1)

choubbi (1841914) | more than 2 years ago | (#39766067)

I believe he says that repressive measures in general are not the ultimate answer... At least I hope.

Re:Police not enough? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#39766123)

I believe he says that repressive measures in general are not the ultimate answer...
At least I hope.

What it means is this :

- Hadopi continues
- french government institutes taxes for internet companies. These revenues will be used to finance french culture (movies, books, etc...)
- update on the media tax, 10-20-30% increase maybe ?

So instead of fucking only the consumers they get to fuck the 2 ends of the spectrum.

The only way to mitigate the cultural-industrial complex is to vote pirate party.
Unfortunately they go strong only in germany. :(

Re:Police not enough? (2)

MrShaggy (683273) | more than 2 years ago | (#39766095)

"will you convert? No no'
'Will you confess? NOnoi'

Well then
BRING ON THE NUNS!!!

Re:Police not enough? (1)

gman003 (1693318) | more than 2 years ago | (#39766163)

<diabolical scare chord>
No-one expects the French Inquisition!

An election may have an effect on politics? (5, Funny)

zAPPzAPP (1207370) | more than 2 years ago | (#39765983)

What a bold idea.

Re:An election may have an effect on politics? (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#39766091)

Yeah, let's all Hope for a Change when the new guy comes in. Surely he will abolish all the old power structures in order to fulfill all of his campaign promises.

Re:An election may have an effect on politics? (1)

the eric conspiracy (20178) | more than 2 years ago | (#39766553)

Not bloody likely. He may try to implement some ideas, but as soon as he tries to issue debt the cold reality will be like a dog running full speed hitting the end of his leash.

Go Sarko (-1, Troll)

lucm (889690) | more than 2 years ago | (#39766133)

> At the same time, Hollande is also strongly against piracy

Hollande is strongly for or against whatever, as long as it will get him elected. The guy is 100% pure fluff.

Sarkozy on the other hand is as genuine as it gets, and he will always have my admiration for being able to render an islamic activist speechless during a television interview (those guys usually won't stop babbling).

Sarkozy is the guy that ordered the woman in charge of budget cuts to downsize her own team - that was awesome. He tried to open eyes in France to the danger of having insanely generous social programs (ask the Greeks), unfortunately this might cost him the presidency... many people prefer to dream and Hollande is pretty good at dreaming.

Re:Go Sarko (1)

znrt (2424692) | more than 2 years ago | (#39766329)

Sarkozy on the other hand is as genuine as it gets, and he will always have my admiration for being able to render an islamic activist speechless during a television interview (those guys usually won't stop babbling). Sarkozy is the guy that ordered the woman in charge of budget cuts to downsize her own team - that was awesome. He tried to open eyes in France to

as appalling as your admiration for this guy's virtues is, you have a point in that it is actually this kind of mindset what motivates most voters, and that this bullshit is what democracy turns out to be all about. very sad.

the danger of having insanely generous social programs (ask the Greeks)

so we should ask the greeks about their "insanely generous social programs"? funny guy.

Re:Go Sarko (0)

sribe (304414) | more than 2 years ago | (#39766343)

so we should ask the greeks about their "insanely generous social programs"? funny guy.

Yes, you should. They drove the country to the very brink of bankruptcy.

Re:Go Sarko (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#39766423)

Of course it had nothing to do with the Greek government not actually collecting any taxes.

Re:Go Sarko (4, Insightful)

znrt (2424692) | more than 2 years ago | (#39766439)

so we should ask the greeks about their "insanely generous social programs"? funny guy.

Yes, you should. They drove the country to the very brink of bankruptcy.

greece has never had any "social programs" worth to mention whatsoever. they just had massive state employment. but that they have had for decades without "driving to the very brink of bankruptcy". they are almost broke now, thanks to political corruption and financial speculation and incidentally germany and france had plenty to do with it, not to forget goldman sachs.

Re:Go Sarko (1)

phantomfive (622387) | more than 2 years ago | (#39766911)

and incidentally germany and france had plenty to do with it, not to forget goldman sachs.

You're blaming Germany and France? Really? Also, blaming Goldman Sachs is like blaming Visa for your high credit card debt. Sure, they are evil enablers, but it's your own stupid fault.

Re:Go Sarko (1)

iserlohn (49556) | more than 2 years ago | (#39767293)

Evil enablers - think about it this way - is a single evil doer more evil, or is a evil enable that encourages 100 people do evil, more evil?

Re:Go Sarko (1)

phantomfive (622387) | more than 2 years ago | (#39767347)

If you make a deal with the devil, who is the stupid one, you or the devil?

Re:Go Sarko (2)

Luckyo (1726890) | more than 2 years ago | (#39766443)

I think you're confusing "massive defrauding of governments on social programs" with "insanely generous social programs".

They have shit like islands with almost ten percent of people being registered as legally blind. It's simply widespread fraud that's become the "way of the land". It has little to nothing to do with social programs themselves and everything to do with massive corruption and self-centred cultural issues.

Re:Go Sarko (1)

the eric conspiracy (20178) | more than 2 years ago | (#39766545)

Not to the brink. Greece is actually bankrupt, having defaulted on it's debt.

Re:Go Sarko (1)

znrt (2424692) | more than 2 years ago | (#39766583)

Not to the brink. Greece is actually bankrupt, having defaulted on it's debt.

greece hasn't defaulted yet. second "rescue" plan avoided that for now.

it seems you guys really do not only read just the same shitty mainstream media, but don't even understand what's written there.

Re:Go Sarko (2)

phantomfive (622387) | more than 2 years ago | (#39766935)

greece hasn't defaulted yet. second "rescue" plan avoided that for now.

Did investors take a 'haircut'? Then it's a default, no matter what else you want to call it. They couldn't pay their bills and needed to restructure.

Re:Go Sarko (2)

TubeSteak (669689) | more than 2 years ago | (#39767815)

Did investors take a 'haircut'? Then it's a default, no matter what else you want to call it. They couldn't pay their bills and needed to restructure.

No.
A negotiated restructuring is not the same as a default.
No matter how you slice it or play at words, it isn't the same.

That said, what the Greeks did was a defacto orderly default.
But because they got everyone on board, they don't have to call it one.

Greece is the perfect example of:
"If someone owes you $10 bucks, they have a problem. If someone owes you $1,000,000,000 you have a problem."

Re:Go Sarko (1)

phantomfive (622387) | more than 2 years ago | (#39767913)

A negotiated restructuring is not the same as a default. No matter how you slice it or play at words, it isn't the same.

Either way, you can't (or are unwilling to) pay back your loans, and your creditor loses money. Details of what you want to call it are unimportant.

Re:Go Sarko (1)

Kjella (173770) | more than 2 years ago | (#39768461)

No.
A negotiated restructuring is not the same as a default.
No matter how you slice it or play at words, it isn't the same.

Greece first passed a law [financialriskstoday.com] lowering the trigger value for their collective action clause (CAC) from 95% to 66% in best Star Wars fashion: "I've altered our deal. Pray that I don't alter it further" then a few days later activated [wsj.com] their CAC to force the participation from 83.5% to 95.7% - the remaining 4.3% was in foreign jurisdiction where they couldn't do this money grab. The result of this is that all rating companies declared this as a default because:

As we have previously stated, we may view an issuer's unilateral change of the original terms and conditions of an obligation as a de facto restructuring and thus a default by Standard & Poor's published definition

In short, Greece did not reach a voluntary deal. They changed the deal without the consent of the debt holders. The credit default swaps (CDS) were triggered [wsj.com] . Nobody that matters (and hint: Greece doesn't matter) considers this anything but a default. In fact, they probably made it worse for themselves and any other country with national debt. Don't like the deal? Pass a law and make a new one...

Re:Go Sarko (3, Insightful)

Trepidity (597) | more than 2 years ago | (#39767083)

Greece's social programs are pretty pitiful. Scandinavia, now there is somewhere with generous social programs. Greece doesn't even have free universal healthcare, and its unemployment insurance is a joke compare to the norms in Scandinavia.

Re:Go Sarko (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#39767871)

And they also work more hours per year than people in the USA, the UK, France or Germany. But who cares about economical facts as long as one can go with sterotypes and urge us to look at Greece to justify anti-social, anti-taxes and anti-regulation programs?

Re:Go Sarko (4, Informative)

tofleplof (2214032) | more than 2 years ago | (#39766825)

> Sarkozy is the guy that ordered the woman in charge of budget cuts to downsize her own team He is also the one who increased the president's salary by 50 %. A month after he got elected. Nice, ain't it?

Re:Go Sarko (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#39767249)

islamic activists aren't used to having to debate. They're used to white people arguing about what kind of doormat to lay down in front of them as they move into our countries to replace us. Because opposing genocide of white people is racist.

French internal politics? (3, Interesting)

DNS-and-BIND (461968) | more than 2 years ago | (#39766157)

Huh? How'd this make the front page? French internal politics? And such a narrow, parochial viewpoint, too. "A man named Francois Hollande"? That's the best we can do to characterize the man? How about this snippet from The Wikipedia, the Source of all Knowledge: "On 16 October 2011, Hollande was nominated to be the Socialist and Left Radical Party candidate in the 2012 presidential election." Funny how his party affiliation is omitted from the summary. What, it's not relevant?

And not a word about how his #1 rival for the Socialist candidacy, Dominique Strauss-Kahn, was very conveniently removed from contention from the French race by being arrested in New York on the shocking charge of rape. Let's quote The Holy Wikipedia again: "On June 30, 2011, the New York Times reported that the case was on the "verge of collapse" because of problems with the credibility of the alleged victim, who had, according to sources within the NYPD, repeatedly lied to the police since making her first statement.[57] According to prosecutors, the accuser admitted that she lied to a grand jury about the events surrounding the alleged attack." Had this rape accusation not happened, DSK would be the nominee going against Sarkozy and not "a man named Francois Hollande."

Hey, I'm not saying socialism is bad. It's been a good influence on Western culture in general. Pretty much every item on Marx's Communist Manifesto has been put into law in all Western countries as well as the United Nations. I'm saying let's put the party affiliation right up there where everyone can see...instead of referring to Hollande purely by gender as "a man". Is there anything to be ashamed of?

I'm also questioning the relevance of some random country's internal politics for a Slashdot front page story, even couched in terms of internet freedoms. And the "from the strategic-surrender-in-order-sometimes dept." part of the story is just a cheap shot. America wouldn't even be an independent republic without help from the French. We'd just be a constitutional monarchy like Canada, with a foreigner as our Head of State. What the hell, Slashdot [tvtropes.org] ?

Re:French internal politics? (1)

uhuru_meditation (2573595) | more than 2 years ago | (#39766309)

Huh? How'd this make the front page? French internal politics?

When first apparatus for recording music came about SACEM - French equivalent of German GEMA or American RIAA or insert_relevant_copyright_agency_here was first to introduce everything, we in 21st century fight against on interwebs. So, of course that it is interesting how they swing, as they do influence radicalized, corrupt and fascistoid EU. Look at the turnout at their elections - more then 70%. What is turnout in USA? Like 20% or so...if. So, no lesson learned.

Re:French internal politics? (5, Insightful)

newcastlejon (1483695) | more than 2 years ago | (#39766471)

Huh? How'd this make the front page? French internal politics?

Well I'm not French either, but it does make a pleasant change from the US political stories that seem to inevitably descend into bleating about libertarians after about a dozen comments.

Re:French internal politics? (2)

phantomfive (622387) | more than 2 years ago | (#39767471)

Agreed. I'd like it if Slashdot had more stories from countries around the world. Politics moves so slowly (seriously, in the US we're still debating the same things we were in the 90s), that it shouldn't be hard to cover a good part of the world.

Re:French internal politics? (1)

reub2000 (705806) | more than 2 years ago | (#39766995)

We'd just be a constitutional monarchy like Canada, with a foreigner as our Head of State.

The governor-general, the person who actually wields the power of the monarchy is Canadian, and is head of state in name only. So instead of having dead presidents on our currency, we'd have the face of an old english lady. What's the issue?

I'm not French, but I don't eat Freedom Fries (2)

SuspectNumber3 (2623637) | more than 2 years ago | (#39767015)

They understand using nuclear power and do it well
SAECM is better than NTSC - tv standards
They were bright enough to go with the Chunnel, despite it taking longer than one election cycle
They do not support Donald Trump for President

They gave the USA the Statue of Liberty and were critical in the Revolutionary War

Maybe they can help in the fight with the RIAA

Re:French internal politics? (1)

iserlohn (49556) | more than 2 years ago | (#39767307)

There is nothing wrong about constitutional monarchy. The fact that a constitutional monarchy pretty much mandates that the head of state being a different person to head of government actually brings many benefits (and is also one of the main reason many republics follow this path, they just swapped the "crown" for a "president").

Re:French internal politics? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#39767937)

Just chiming in on DSK here. You forget, the guy was the head of the IMF. The "rape" thing happened before DSK was formally announced as the socialist candidate. If it was elections-motivated, the timing was premature, since it left enough time to the left to rebuild a campaign from the ground up with Hollande.

However, it did cost DSK the IMF.

Re:French internal politics? (5, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#39768021)

"Hollande was nominated to be the Socialist and Left Radical Party candidate in the 2012 presidential election."

You known, it is pretty funny to read this from a french point of view. The socialist party in France is considered as a moderate one. And I actually have no idea why the hell the english version of wikipedia says that he was nominated to be the left radical party candidate. It a guy called Mélenchon (and there are other candidates to his left). But I suppose that he is so far on the left that he overflows american standards...

Re:French internal politics? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#39768549)

In France, the left radical party (PRG - Parti Radical de Gauche), a very small entity, is not at all "radical" as it name imply, and *is* affiliated with the socialists (PS), with a common candidate for the elections. This is not to be confused with the "far-left" party of Jean-Luc Mélenchon (Front de Gauche), which is itself affiliated with the communist party. So Wikipedia is right here.

Re:French internal politics? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#39768433)

Huh? How'd this make the front page? French internal politics?

The story is about how there is a possibility that HADOPI might be revoked. How the hell did you find your way from that to having a foreigner as your head of state? You went off on a major tangent there.

Oh, wait. This is about Sarkozy being Hungarian?

Re:French internal politics? (2)

radio4fan (304271) | more than 2 years ago | (#39768485)

In any case, he's a man named François Hollande.

I guess timothy omitted the cedilla for fear that slashcode would mangle it.

not convicted (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#39766159)

Have a look at the enormous flip flop that francois did on decriminalization of cannabis. The guy has no principles. He's just another talking head...and a bad one at that! Besides, Sarkozy is going to eat him alive in debates. Don't hold your breathe.

Re:not convicted (1)

Luckyo (1726890) | more than 2 years ago | (#39766455)

Sarkozy has a tendency of burying himself in debates at least as much as eating his opponents alive. He has a sharp tongue, and it bites him back quite often.

Re:not convicted (3, Insightful)

Sique (173459) | more than 2 years ago | (#39766769)

There is nothing wrong with "flipflopping". One of the most successful chancellors of Germany is often quoted with "What do I care about my chitchat from yesterday?" [wikiquote.org] .

If new information changes the situation, if one gets convinced that the own stance was misguided, why not make up your mind and change your opinion? People unable to react if circumstances change and old concepts cede to work should not be the masters of our fate.

Re:not convicted (1)

damienl451 (841528) | more than 2 years ago | (#39768081)

You're making it sound as if these politicians have an epiphany and change their opinion for good reasons. What really happens is that they look at polls, realize that the position that they had been arguing for/against doesn't chime that well with the voters (for instance because, after primaries, they now have to appear to the median voter and "moderates"), so they shamelessly switch positions and now argue as vehemently the exact opposite of what they had been saying before.

When you have been on both sides of an issue and back and the guiding principle seems to be which way the wind blows, you're not someone who is good at adapting to new circumstances. You're just a cynical liar.

I still think CD sales tax for hollywood is weak (1)

GoodNewsJimDotCom (2244874) | more than 2 years ago | (#39766187)

CDs have been known to hold songs, so everyone who buys cds must be forced to pay tribute to Hollywood! This is so weak. I use CDs to backup my code, but I still have to pay off the RIAA/MPAA because they legislate.

Re:I still think CD sales tax for hollywood is wea (1)

AbrasiveCat (999190) | more than 2 years ago | (#39767067)

CDs have been known to hold songs, so everyone who buys cds must be forced to pay tribute to Hollywood! This is so weak. I use CDs to backup my code, but I still have to pay off the RIAA/MPAA because they legislate.

Hmm, you must be Canadian.

On the other hand since you have already paid tribute, I presume you can copy all the songs you want.

Something I don't understand here... (5, Insightful)

digitig (1056110) | more than 2 years ago | (#39766241)

What has what a politician says in opposition got to do with what they'll do if they get into power?

Re:Something I don't understand here... (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#39766331)

Those on the left are far more credible than those on the right. The left represents the workers, the right represents the plutocrats. I have to ask: what university did you go to where you did not learn this?

Re:Something I don't understand here... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#39766441)

O RLY? O^O

Re:Something I don't understand here... (0)

digitig (1056110) | more than 2 years ago | (#39766479)

Oh, I do hope that was meant to be funny!

Re:Something I don't understand here... (0)

turbidostato (878842) | more than 2 years ago | (#39766535)

"Those on the left are far more credible than those on the right"

Sadly no, they don't.

"The left represents the workers"

The European socialists *say* they represent the workers.

"the right represents the plutocrats"

So, you see? They both represent the same guys, but the right doesn't need to lie about it.

Re:Something I don't understand here... (1)

shentino (1139071) | more than 2 years ago | (#39766897)

Which isn't much of a problem on a local level because if they fuck up we can have a recall election and yank them out.

Jews... (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#39766319)

"current President and anti-piracy advocate Nicolas Sarkozy" = JEW.

Re:Jews... (2)

Sique (173459) | more than 2 years ago | (#39766781)

Actually, his father is hungarian, and his mother, while french, is of jewish-greek origin.

Won't matter who is elected. (4, Insightful)

owlnation (858981) | more than 2 years ago | (#39766421)

The reason for France being at the forefront of anti-piracy things is Vivendi SA. And it won't make the slightest bit of difference whom is elected president. Vivendi are still there, and still in the pockets of anyone they need to be.

what is Slashtard the new Politico? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#39766497)

WGAF?

misheard lyrics (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#39766713)

am I the only one who read 'french erections ...'

viva la France (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#39766805)

How long before RIAA /MPAA dig up naked pictures of Francois?

Hollande is unclear on those questions (5, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#39767837)

During this campaign, François Hollande sent many contradictory signals regarding Hadopi, the anti-piracy legislation. At the beginning of 2012, he said he would abrogate this law. Later he said he would just modify it. Finally he published a letter where he stood aside of the rights holder against pirates, and claimed he would "gather everyone around a table", a trick he used on many topics he wanted to evade. So, even if Hollande is elected (he probably will), no one knows whether he will actually change anything.

Now, on a sidenote, on why French internal policies may have their place on headlines:
* France and Germany are the most influent countries in Europe and a shift of their positions could change the European ones. And since Europe is the first economic power in the world and gathers 27 countries, international treaties and regulations are worthless without it. Here is why such a topic may be of importance.
* If USA's internal policies are on the headlines, why not other countries? Not all of the American policies reported on Slashdot matters for people outside of the USA (95% of the world, the rest of us).

So, yes, a shift in French position regarding the Internet regulation would matter and should be on Slashdot. This news, however, I don't think so.

Hollande : More taxes before Intenet freedom (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#39768061)

I'm French and, for us, entrepreneurs, Hollande is not the champion of Internet Freedom, only the champion of adding more and more civil servants payed by a never ending list of taxes (33% on profits, next 35% on dividends, then 50% on your revenues, then 1% on everything you own each year!). Hollande is the one that does not like "richmen" and will bend the City to his will (laugh in the audience at that point).

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