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Microsoft Backs Away From CISPA Support, Citing Privacy

Soulskill posted more than 2 years ago | from the seeing-which-way-the-wind-is-blowing dept.

Government 132

suraj.sun writes "CISPA, the hotly-contested cybersecurity bill making its way through Congress, has been supported by Microsoft since it was introduced. However, the company now tells CNET that any such legislation must 'honor the privacy and security promises we make to our customers,' while also 'protecting consumer privacy.' As you may recall, the U.S. House passed CISPA on Thursday. The Obama administration has threatened to veto the bill. Quoting CNET: 'That's a noticeable change — albeit not a complete reversal — from Microsoft's position when CISPA was introduced in November 2011. To be sure, Microsoft's initial reaction to CISPA came before many of the privacy concerns had been raised. An anti-CISPA coalition letter (PDF) wasn't sent out until April 16, and a petition that garnered nearly 800,000 signatures wasn't set up until April 5. What makes CISPA so controversial is a section saying that, "notwithstanding any other provision of law," companies may share information with Homeland Security, the IRS, the NSA, or other agencies. By including the word "notwithstanding," CISPA's drafters intended to make their legislation trump all existing federal and state laws, including ones dealing with wiretaps, educational records, medical privacy, and more.'"

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Microsoft has always been pro-privacy (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#39832325)

Microsofts business is to sell software, not collect your data and violate your privacy like Google does. This lining goes well along with Microsoft's past behavior and respect towards users privacy.

Re:Microsoft has always been pro-privacy (5, Insightful)

Penguinisto (415985) | more than 2 years ago | (#39832423)

Please - the only reason Microsoft is backing away from it now is because they were caught supporting it. Look for them to happily support the next anti-consumer bill to come down the pike if the bill benefits them... and just like this time, and SOPA before it, they'll quietly hope that this time, nobody notices.

Re:Microsoft has always been pro-privacy (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#39833365)

Yeah... they were "caught". Like how their PR department officially announced that they were initially in support of it. Wow.. what deception ! What a sneaky way to support something !

Google on the other hand is fully in support of this horrible bill. It gives them more power to snoop on their users. And they get complete immunity from lawsuits because they promise to share the data with the government.

Re:Microsoft has always been pro-privacy (5, Insightful)

betterunixthanunix (980855) | more than 2 years ago | (#39832485)

Microsofts business is to sell software

They also have a substantial and growing online services division, and they are still in a precarious position when it comes to antitrust laws. Microsoft does not want to endanger its relationship with the government -- a relationship that basically resulted in the punishment for their previous antitrust case being completely ignored. They also sell technology to law enforcement agencies that helps in the gathering of computer evidence.

A business built on privacy violations? No, nobody can accuse Microsoft of that, at least not without some real evidence to back it up. A friendly and valuable relationship with the government, that has allowed them to continue to dominate various markets? Absolutely, and that is why they supported CISPA -- it basically gave them a free pass to cultivate that relationship.

Re:Microsoft has always been pro-privacy (1)

Motard (1553251) | more than 2 years ago | (#39833513)

A Microsoft executive recently pointed out that they keep far less personal information than Google. So it seems that MS sees this as a handy hammer to smack Google with.

I don't think MS wants Google's business model (which is probably why they were looking to offload Bing to Facebook or another partner).

Re:Microsoft has always been pro-privacy (3, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#39832717)

I can't believe this comment hasn't been judged as either flame-bait or trolling. Even if Microsoft wasn't interested early on in collecting data, since they began focusing on the Web, they've made every effort to facilitate the efforts of their customers (not end users) to do so.

Aside from this, what is Bing! if not another attempt to pigeonhole every end user by their habits, preferences and communications.

Pro-privacy... give me a break.

Re:Microsoft has always been pro-privacy (1)

symbolset (646467) | more than 2 years ago | (#39833239)

Their complaint was that it was "not evil enough".

Re:Microsoft has always been pro-privacy (1)

VanessaE (970834) | more than 2 years ago | (#39833509)

So it's quasi-evil? It's the margarine of evil?

Re:Microsoft has always been pro-privacy (1)

Curunir_wolf (588405) | more than 2 years ago | (#39833775)

So it's quasi-evil? It's the margarine of evil?

You're a little behind. Margarine is now known to be full-on Pure Evil [tophealthrisks.com] .

Re:Microsoft has always been pro-privacy (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#39833919)

I kept waiting for the article to point out that omg margarine is just one molecule away from plastic!
Though it may have some truths, some of the arguing points read like the worst sort of propaganda (butter is 'more natural', margarine can't be digested, flies won't touch it, butter has been around longer, etc), so that it would be foolish to trust it.

a first time for everything. (1, Insightful)

bleedingsamurai (2539410) | more than 2 years ago | (#39832339)

This is a first for Microsoft, protecting users' privacy.

Re:a first time for everything. (0, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#39832355)

Microsoft != Google. They have always been good about making sure their services are opt-in and not selling everything to viagra spammers.

Re:a first time for everything. (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#39832377)

Exactly! Microsoft never been accused of anything of the sort.

Why pêople hate microsoft is because of they excessive pricing scheme, you pay for a computer with WINDOWS license, then buy a server WITH A WINDOWS license AND WTF DO YOU KNOW NEXT, you have to fucking poay for a licence to ALLOW the computer to connect to the server.

Re:a first time for everything. (5, Informative)

spire3661 (1038968) | more than 2 years ago | (#39832469)

Umm no. The geeks rose up about Microsoft back in the day because they tried to own the entirety of computing through a long campaign of malicious acts. Sure we hate paying licensing and the MS scheme is egregious, but thats not what evoked retribution.

Re:a first time for everything. (0, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#39832751)

Dude, don't forget your blood pressure medication

Microsoft and Law Enforcement Agencies (4, Informative)

betterunixthanunix (980855) | more than 2 years ago | (#39832417)

https://www.microsoft.com/industry/government/solutions/cofee/default.aspx [microsoft.com]

Note that this is exclusively for law enforcement -- law abiding citizens would presumably have difficult obtaining technical information or copies of this product (I doubt that criminals will have much trouble). The last line on that page is telling:

If it's vital to government, it's mission critical to Microsoft.

Re:Microsoft and Law Enforcement Agencies (2, Insightful)

DeathFromSomewhere (940915) | more than 2 years ago | (#39832585)

So you are going to point out some 1 line marketing snippet, take it completely out of context, and then extrapolate it to mean that Microsoft is selling private consumer data to various governments. Please elaborate because I feel like I'm missing something here.

Re:Microsoft and Law Enforcement Agencies (4, Insightful)

betterunixthanunix (980855) | more than 2 years ago | (#39832665)

Perhaps you missed the part about technology given only to law enforcement, which allows them to take forensic data from live systems -- technology that criminals will be able to study, but which is deliberately hidden from law abiding citizens. The point is not that Microsoft is actively handing data over, the point is that Microsoft is not going to stand up to law enforcement and say, "No, we are not voluntarily helping you." The opposite is true: Microsoft is giving away technology at no cost to help law enforcement gather data from computers.

Microsoft did show an iota of backbone when it came to the clipper chip, but times have changed. Now Microsoft wants to cultivate a friendly relationship with the government. Perhaps the OP was a little strong with calling this a "first" for Microsoft, but it is not exactly something that we should expect either.

Re:Microsoft and Law Enforcement Agencies (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#39832805)

I just read the link and saw the words "on the scene" multiple times. That means the police would already have a warrant.

  It sounds like this is just some USB stick with an autorun script that takes a dump of the memory. There might be more to it then that in fact I'm pretty sure there is; but the fact that you need physical access to the computer makes it a non issue as far as privacy is concerned for me.

Re:Microsoft and Law Enforcement Agencies (1)

blowdart (31458) | more than 2 years ago | (#39832861)

Of course Apple and Google [cnet.com] do the same things for their phone OSes. And then there's those god damn open source commies who want an authoritarian government - they must do, there are rather a lot of Linux based forensics tools [opensourceforensics.org] . Microsoft is giving away technology at no cost to help law enforcement gather data from computers? So is open source. Get over your bad self.

Re:Microsoft and Law Enforcement Agencies (3, Insightful)

Daniel Dvorkin (106857) | more than 2 years ago | (#39833065)

Microsoft is giving away technology at no cost to help law enforcement gather data from computers? So is open source. Get over your bad self.

OSS forensics tools are available to everyone, and provided by people who generally believe in giving away their code. COFFEE is available only to law enforcement, and provided by a company which generally makes money from selling closed-source, proprietary software. Please don't try to pretend that the two situations are even remotely comparable.

Re:a first time for everything. (2, Informative)

bleedingsamurai (2539410) | more than 2 years ago | (#39832457)

I want you to go home, turn off any thing on your network that might be sending broadcast traffic, fire up a computer running a freshly installed copy of a Windows that was legally obtained and theoretically shouldn't contain any rootkits or backdoors.

Then fire up a frame capture and watch all the odd traffic flowing from the box, even after you turned off things like automatic updates and netBIOS to ensure you aren't picking up legitimate services.

Re:a first time for everything. (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#39832527)

I don't give a shit if microsoft get information from my installation, it's accepted by the user in the EULA.

I just don't want microsoft to sell these informations, and youre scenario don't prove anything of the sort.

Re:a first time for everything. (2)

Artifakt (700173) | more than 2 years ago | (#39833093)

But how could anyone prove what you ask? You know where your info is while it's on your box. You don't know where it is once somebody else has a copy, by definition. How can anyone prove or disprove that something is or isn't being done by some other party who has surruptitiously gained a copy of the information without knowledge of the original owner? I can't prove what somebody who stole my car did with it afterwards, just as I can't prove what somebody who legally bought my car did with it afterwards.
              The question of how the property was obtained is still relevant. If Microsoft is sneaky about gathering the information, then it seems likelier that they are also using that information in various ways that don't respect my privacy. If Microsoft doesn't respect some parts of the social compact, then the odds increase that they don't repect others, and not serving as an agent of the police without abiding by the same rules as the real police are supposed to is one of those parts.
            I can't logically prove that Person X molests children, just because Person X has been found guilty of treason, bank robbery, beating his wife, and mopery with intent to gawk. Not being able to prove something, there, does it mean much at all in terms of what I should do?
 

Re:a first time for everything. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#39834117)

I can't logically prove that Person X molests children, just because Person X has been found guilty of treason, bank robbery, beating his wife, and mopery with intent to gawk. Not being able to prove something, there, does it mean much at all in terms of what I should do?

Yes, but nowadays you don't have to prove that someone molests children, its enough to simply insinuate that they do. And then God help you if you happen to be male. Because, of course, women NEVER molest kids, do they?

Re:a first time for everything. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#39832605)

Now get to the point where that network data contains private information being sold to who knows where. Before you reply, make sure you know what an argument from ignorance [wikipedia.org] is and why it's a fallacy. Because I'm pretty sure that's where you are going with this.

Re:a first time for everything. (2)

bleedingsamurai (2539410) | more than 2 years ago | (#39832719)

If you can't pin down every data stream spewing from a "pure" install of your operating system, can you be sure it doesn't have private information? A system that obfuscates it's operation is a system that doesn't protect end user privacy, just the privacy of anyone with a backdoor installed on it.

Heck, I can search the registry to see what websites you've visited, remotely if I wanted too, even after you clear your browser history and temporary data. Maybe Microsoft itself isn't violating your privacy but they sure make it an easy job for others.

Re:a first time for everything. (1)

Isaac Remuant (1891806) | more than 2 years ago | (#39832757)

I'm on a mobile device right now but can you point me on examples of such type of analysis that you'd consider credible?

Re:a first time for everything. (1)

Opportunist (166417) | more than 2 years ago | (#39832683)

Erh.... you might want to read this [securityspace.com] .

Re:a first time for everything. (2)

symbolset (646467) | more than 2 years ago | (#39833243)

So you've never used Hotmail then?

Re:a first time for everything. (1)

marcello_dl (667940) | more than 2 years ago | (#39832393)

Or a token move.

How much they care for privacy is seen in the way they implement their OS and apps. I don't judge them in that regard, BIT before you judge, try to see how other players in the field, esp. Debian, tackle the problem of broadcasting the OS, the updates, and get optional feedback (popcon).

Re:a first time for everything. (1)

satanclause (2626589) | more than 2 years ago | (#39832697)

This is a first for Microsoft, protecting users' security.

FTFY

Re:a first time for everything. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#39832867)

It makes sense once you realize that the government is the user, we are the product

Re:a first time for everything. (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#39832953)

I worked at Microsoft until recently, and although in general I don't have many good things to say about the company, I do think they care about privacy. In general at Microsoft they are very concerned about the letter of the law, and about public opinion. They don't necessarily care about these things out of idealism or very deep beliefs, but there is a great fear of overstepping legal bounds.

Re:a first time for everything. (1)

UltimaBuddy (2566017) | more than 2 years ago | (#39833185)

Even evil has standards.

BE GLAD OF IT THEN... apk (2)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#39833573)

I am, it's actually GOOD to see they have enough character to 1st support something, then to see that users DO NOT WANT IT, & to back clear away from it too.

* See subject-line, if that's what you really feel is a "1st" from them then...

APK

P.S.=> You've got to understand that BIG & POWERFUL as M$ is (& I am definitely a 'fanboy' of theirs + everyone around here knows that much), that YES, they too, have been "hassled" by government & know what THAT's about, & turning THE REPUBLICANS http://clerk.house.gov/evs/2012/roll192.xml [house.gov] this way as they have?

Admirable!

It also proves they don't just "stay the course" when the OBVIOUS MAJORITY OF US DO NOT WANT THIS CISPA/SOPA/ACTA BULLSHIT...

As especially when our own politicians don't write it, & BIG MONEY DOES & they just "champion it" @ Big Money's behest, like a good dog would... wait until taxes don't get paid anymore & the big companies refuse to foot the bill & keep offshoring jobs... then, the politician dogs WILL TURN ON THEIR "PUPPET STRING MASTERS", mark my words on it...

(Which that type of CRAP? Yes, it has been going on forever, but seems to be coming to a halt because people ARE BECOMING CONSCIOUS OF IT & SCRUTINIZING THE HELL OUT OF CRAP JUST LIKE THIS - God Bless those folks!)...

... apk

What is wrong with you americans? (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#39832365)

Seriously? What is wrong with you guys? How in the fuck did you even come up with a system where non related shit can be tacked on to a bill? Is it bullshit that got added on later or were your vaunted founding fathers slightly retarded?

Re:What is wrong with you americans? (5, Interesting)

bleedingsamurai (2539410) | more than 2 years ago | (#39832383)

A democracy only works when the public isn't mainly comprised of morons. I blame shitty public education.

Re:What is wrong with you americans? (4, Insightful)

betterunixthanunix (980855) | more than 2 years ago | (#39832465)

I blame the fact that most Americans have no idea why their rights are important, or what life would be like without those rights. We are already starting to get our feet wet with this, but people need to be tossed in head first before they really understand the issues. When people are being asked for their papers before being allowed to cross state lines, when their search histories are scrutinized whenever they try to spend money, when it becomes impossible to live without breaking laws and bribing cops, then people will understand -- but by then it will be too late anyway.

Re:What is wrong with you americans? (1)

bleedingsamurai (2539410) | more than 2 years ago | (#39832553)

But I feel this can still come back to poor public education.
I was only required to take one "Civics" class really didn't have anything coherent to say.
It stead of forcing us to memorize the Bill of Rights they should have actually explained what they did for citizens. We didn't even break down the Constitution and discuss what powers are given to the Federal government and are reserved for State governments. ect. ect.

Re:What is wrong with you americans? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#39833885)

So because you had a single class that didn't explore things that would help you out later in life, you think that all public education is bad?

And, if you think public education is so bad, perhaps you can offer a better alternative that is available to all children/students for the same cost?

No? That's what I thought. Public education is exactly like anything else - [garbage in] students allergic to learning and a culture that doesn't appreciate being smart, [garbage out] graduates that don't want to apply themselves to any worthwhile endeavors like a post-secondary education or cutting edge research to advance their own standing among their peers, contributing to keeping their nation safe and free, and pushing the boundaries of human knowledge.

Re:What is wrong with you americans? (2)

the eric conspiracy (20178) | more than 2 years ago | (#39832593)

The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time.

Re:What is wrong with you americans? (1)

Opportunist (166417) | more than 2 years ago | (#39832693)

The only problem I have with that is that it will be watered using the wrong fluid.

Re:What is wrong with you americans? (1)

bmo (77928) | more than 2 years ago | (#39832829)

The quote doesn't say *whose* blood.

--
BMO

Re:What is wrong with you americans? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#39833677)

It kinda does.

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson

Re:What is wrong with you americans? (1)

shutdown -p now (807394) | more than 2 years ago | (#39833881)

... with Brawndo. Cuz it's got electrolytes.

Re:What is wrong with you americans? (-1, Troll)

rrohbeck (944847) | more than 2 years ago | (#39832597)

As long as you have guns to defend yourself, what does it matter?

Re:What is wrong with you americans? (1)

alexgieg (948359) | more than 2 years ago | (#39832661)

I blame the fact that most Americans have no idea why their rights are important, or what life would be like without those rights. We are already starting to get our feet wet with this, but people need to be tossed in head first before they really understand the issues.

I remember a political text I read years ago in which the author was of the opinion that every democracy should experience a few years (or decades, as is wont to happen) of fascism to both fully appreciate the value of what's been lost as well as to learn what stupid mistakes to avoid next time around...

Re:What is wrong with you americans? (1)

ColdWetDog (752185) | more than 2 years ago | (#39832849)

I remember a political text I read years ago in which the author was of the opinion that every democracy should experience a few years (or decades, as is wont to happen) of fascism to both fully appreciate the value of what's been lost as well as to learn what stupid mistakes to avoid next time around...

Right. Because the US Civil war was such a wonderful experience and improved 'democracy' for all citizens.

Sorry, it's just a bit more complex than that. You just don't hit CTL-ALT-DELETE and reboot a society.

Re:What is wrong with you americans? (1)

BlueStrat (756137) | more than 2 years ago | (#39832917)

I blame the fact that most Americans have no idea why their rights are important, or what life would be like without those rights. We are already starting to get our feet wet with this, but people need to be tossed in head first before they really understand the issues.

I remember a political text I read years ago in which the author was of the opinion that every democracy should experience a few years (or decades, as is wont to happen) of fascism to both fully appreciate the value of what's been lost as well as to learn what stupid mistakes to avoid next time around...

No generation of people, once their freedom has been lost, has ever recovered that freedom during that generation. The only hope at that point is to pass to the next generation a love and desire for freedom such that they rise up to defeat those who prevent it's flourishing.

Strat

Re:What is wrong with you americans? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#39832749)

I think the biggest problem is that nobody agrees on what the problems and solutions are. Almost everyone agrees that there is a problem, but each of us has a different interpretation. Even here, where most are at least average intelligence, very few agree.

Some say the problem is the system, that it's corrupt from bottom to top. Some say the problem is the people, too engaged in bread and circuses to even realize that things around them are a crumbling. Some say the problem is that even if those people weren't distracted, they're too retarded to participate in political discourse anyway. Some say the problem is that the system isn't enough, some say the problem is that the system is too much. Some say the media is the problem. Some say that corporations are the problem. Some say that there's a shadow government pulling all the strings. Some say the banks are the problem. Some say the legal system is the problem. Some say politicians are the problem.

Each of these has some grain of truth to them. But the biggest problem is that if nobody agrees on what the problem is, no solution can be made. Diversity is actually more paralyzing than any of the forces above in this case. We're so far removed from the idealism that founded this country that it's questionable whether it's even possible to reconcile.

So what's wrong with Americans? Incidentally, the same thing that made us a potent global force. Diversity.

Re:What is wrong with you americans? (2, Interesting)

roman_mir (125474) | more than 2 years ago | (#39832801)

We are already starting to get our feet wet with this

- starting? The only obvious difference between what's been going on for about 100 years in USA now and what's been happening since 9/11 is that before the transgressions against individual rights only hit minorities (employers and investors mostly but also other individual property owners), while what's happening now is hitting the majority (everybody else).

The rights of individuals were been compromised in USA for a long time now and when I say that I include the right to pursuit of happiness, as in - get the fucking government out of people's way to do what they can as long as they are not hurting other individuals in the process and that's what State criminal courts and civil courts are for. Everything, from government backing unions, printing currency and income taxes to minimum wage to SS and Medicare to wars to regulating every aspect of property and ownership under the sun, all of this has been compromising the principles of individual freedom, it's just that the majority was in silent agreement with those transgressions. Well guess what, eventually they come after you as well.

Re:What is wrong with you americans? (1)

Dragonslicer (991472) | more than 2 years ago | (#39833539)

The only obvious difference between what's been going on for about 100 years in USA now and what's been happening since 9/11 is that before the transgressions against individual rights only hit minorities (employers and investors mostly but also other individual property owners)

Because when I look at the history of the United States, and I consider the minorities that have at various times had their individual rights trampled, business owners and venture capitalists are the first on my list.

Re:What is wrong with you americans? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#39833689)

I'm with you brother! Can you spare dime [cuny.edu] ? If you can I'll see if I can raise another 40 cents so I can call someone how might be able to explain the Unequal Protection [amazon.com] afforded artificially incorporated business entities who now hold far greater sway [wikipedia.org] over the U.S. so-called democratic republic than any feudal lord ever held over serfdom.

Since we don't teach European history very well, we may be doomed to reiterate it. Few people seem to remember that the Bill of Rights were the 1st 10 amendments to the Constitution which were the expressed limitations placed on the federal governmental power and authority or that they came out of legitimate concerns about the history of governmental abuse of power. Even fewer stop to realize that at the time, women, slaves and those that did not own 'property' weren't really considered citizen stakeholders.

Re:What is wrong with you americans? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#39833889)

Yep, employers and investors have been so hard done by in America.

Idiot.

Re:What is wrong with you americans? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#39832495)

A democracy only works when the public isn't mainly comprised of morons. I blame shitty public education.

you can't have shitty public education without shitty parents who see how shitty they are and still they refuse to homeschool.

Re:What is wrong with you americans? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#39832543)

Here at work we refuse a lot of "homeschooled" they are most of the time egocentric moron whos superior education lack the social part.

Re:What is wrong with you americans? (2)

bbecker23 (1917560) | more than 2 years ago | (#39832551)

Having met "homeschool parents" (I was homeschooled for a bit, growing up) I can honestly say that no matter how shitty the schools are, they are far and away better than most homeschoolers. It can be done well and with those people I have no complaint, but, in my experience, those parents are less concerned with quality education that with isolating children from "corrupting influences" or more thoroughly impressing religious doctrine in the guise of education.

Re:What is wrong with you americans? (1)

BakaHoushi (786009) | more than 2 years ago | (#39832919)

I'm not exactly fond of my memories in public school, but having met a number of homeschooled kids, I'm so very, very thankful I was not among them.

You hit it right on the head with the religious indoctrination. Most of these kids aren't taught by parents who, let's face it, are even LESS qualified than normal, public teachers. And they're not taught at home because public schools teach to the test, don't give all the resources and attention to students in trouble, or because of the lack of proper coverage of fields such as law (for at least a basic understanding of it).

It's because the science class covers the EVIL science of evolution. And because if there is, miraculously, a class on ethics and philosophy, it doesn't consist entirely of "God said this, therefore it is so."

I'm not trying to pick on anyone who considers themselves religious. You can believe in whatever deity or spirit or whatever as you please. But when you deny a child a standard-if-flawed education because it doesn't cater to YOUR beliefs (and let's face it, these people don't care that OTHER faiths aren't covered, just theirs), well, I don't quite have the words to express my horror here.

Re:What is wrong with you americans? (0)

BlueStrat (756137) | more than 2 years ago | (#39832991)

Having met "homeschool parents" (I was homeschooled for a bit, growing up) I can honestly say that no matter how shitty the schools are, they are far and away better than most homeschoolers.

Hey look!

I can wave my hands around on Slashdot and make unsubstantiated and broad generalizations based on nothing more than anecdotal evidence that may or may not even be true.

But hey, if it fits the political group-think...

Strat

Re:What is wrong with you americans? (3, Insightful)

bbecker23 (1917560) | more than 2 years ago | (#39833333)

I'm hardly hand-waving. Read the rest of my post (the part you didn't care to quote).

It can be done well and with those people I have no complaint, but, in my experience,

As a college educated individual in a STEM discipline, I'd feel perfectly confident with homeschooling in science or math courses. Have me try to teach a history class and the results would be comical at best. The idea that John Q. Public, with nothing more than a textbook for the class, can be as effective at education as someone with Masters (required in my state, YMMV) is indicative of the dismissive attitude we tend to take towards education.

Some notable stats: among homeschooling fathers, ~32% have "Some College/No Degree" or less. Mothers do slightly worse with ~33% having the same education level. If we include through BA/BS (which is unlikely to be in something relevant to teaching) the numbers are even more stark. At a time when we are demanding more of our teachers, are we also going to say that a few classes at the community college is sufficient to teach high school calculus?

Source [ed.gov]

Re:What is wrong with you americans? (1)

BlueStrat (756137) | more than 2 years ago | (#39833901)

As a college educated individual in a STEM discipline, I'd feel perfectly confident with homeschooling in science or math courses. Have me try to teach a history class and the results would be comical at best.

So, because you find it too difficult to do the work to put together a competent lesson plan in History, nobody else can?

he idea that John Q. Public, with nothing more than a textbook for the class,...

In what world is "John Q. Public" limited to only "a textbook for the class"? There are tons of sources for course material, lesson plans, etc etc in nearly every conceivable subject and at nearly every level, many if not most done by those with Masters and PhD's.

Some notable stats: among homeschooling fathers, ~32% have "Some College/No Degree" or less. Mothers do slightly worse with ~33% having the same education level. If we include through BA/BS (which is unlikely to be in something relevant to teaching) the numbers are even more stark. At a time when we are demanding more of our teachers, are we also going to say that a few classes at the community college is sufficient to teach high school calculus?

Source [ed.gov]

Never mind the stats you quote are from the Federal Dept. of Education, and with the government's track-record of "massaging" data and stats making those numbers not entirely trustworthy, what about the stats (graduation rates, literacy/math skills, etc etc) for what all the wonderful Masters and PhD's have accomplished for all our massive spending sunk into public education? Shouldn't we then have the best education results if we've got such brilliant public school educators, if the fact of the teachers having a Masters or PhD is the determining factor in how good the results are?

Nobody is saying that having specific education in a subject doesn't help someone who teaches, all other things being equal, but it's not necessary, not by a long shot.

Between the Dept. of Ed's "one size fits all" policies and mandates, the NEA and teacher's unions advocating only for better pay and benefits for teachers with politicians who are spending other people's money and will be out of office before the results catch them up, but none of them advocating for or really caring at all for the students, it's small wonder that a modest effort by reasonably-intelligent parents who have the motivation of actually loving the child and wanting the best for them routinely for the majority far exceeds the results of the average public school education...your personal experiences, political ideologies, contempt for most people's intelligence and ability, and biases notwithstanding.

Strat

Re:What is wrong with you americans? (1)

PPH (736903) | more than 2 years ago | (#39832421)

I'm not sure this is a case of unrelated crap being tacked onto a bill (not that this doesn't happen all too often). This is a bill that deals with information sharing between law enforcement and private businesses. It's scope may prove to be much wider that what its authors claim. But its more a matter of unintended consequences of the legislation rather than some extra language being slipped in.

Re:What is wrong with you americans? (5, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#39832455)

It happened because the public is too involved making sure their party gets elected, right or wrong, to give a fuck about what their party is actually doing. This kind of thinking has all the trappings of a high school football game. The sooner that people abandon their party the sooner we get back to being where we need to be. The current division in American trust is split along party lines and even when both "sides" agree they refuse to come to terms because they see it as taking on the banner of the enemy.
 
People planet wide will suffer for what has happened for decades to come.

Re:What is wrong with you americans? (1)

tommasorepetti (2485820) | more than 2 years ago | (#39832477)

yo anonymous coward, troll much?

Re:What is wrong with you americans? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#39832561)

It ain't a troll.

While that post was pretty flamebait-ish, the fact remains that there is a HUGE legal loophole that lets any fruitloop or someone with a lot of power to throw in unrelated laws to other laws before it gets signed off.
If done, it becomes law and can be enforced immediately.
It has been done before.
CISPA was amended and hurried in to a quick vote.

It sorta reminds me of that fruitloop admin on wikipedia who pushed so hard to get back at OldManMurray and done a quick vote in the deletion area and got it removed, and another I forgot the name of, all because his website made fun of him OVER A DECADE AGO. Man that was some pathetic nonsense.
Still, not as bad as CISPA people, they done pretty much the same thing here since the first attempts never worked out (just like that idiots first attempts to delete it for not being notable were)

It happens in the UK as well. In fact it even happened just there at Easter if I remember correct.

Re:What is wrong with you americans? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#39832769)

Nice one eh? As original troll, the dumbass responses are quite amusing. Duh uh what do i care we all got guns anyways? And meep meep if we just gave up our economic power to homeschool our precious children meep meep.

haha lol. Country of muppets lol

Re:What is wrong with you americans? (1)

shoehornjob (1632387) | more than 2 years ago | (#39833031)

Seriously? What is wrong with you guys? How in the fuck did you even come up with a system where non related shit can be tacked on to a bill? Is it bullshit that got added on later or were your vaunted founding fathers slightly retarded?

We don't care that our government has been stripping away our rights and privacy for years because we are too concerned with stupid shit that happened on tv last night. I could go on but you all know the story.

Re:What is wrong with you americans? (1)

shoehornjob (1632387) | more than 2 years ago | (#39833039)

Actually the founding fathers had it right because they had to fight for their liberty. Now we only fight when the president declares war without approval from Congress. Fucking bush should have been impeached for that shit. All Clinton did was get a blow job and put his cigar where it didn't belong. Bush got several thousand people killed and they still hate us in the middle east.

Re:What is wrong with you americans? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#39834145)

Seriously? What is wrong with you guys? How in the fuck did you even come up with a system where non related shit can be tacked on to a bill? Is it bullshit that got added on later or were your vaunted founding fathers slightly retarded?

Our vaunted founding fathers are DEAD. So who cares what they wanted? Right? Besides that was then, this is now. Them who has the gold rule. That's the golden rule.

Microsoft can capitalize on this. (5, Interesting)

tommasorepetti (2485820) | more than 2 years ago | (#39832387)

With corporate backers of CISPA including Facebook, there is room for tech giants to secure some quick PR gains in the tech community with this. I think many people found the Windows 8 developer/consumer preview underwhelming, if not annoying. Seriously, Windows without a Start menu? I'm starting to believe the Mayans about what's supposed to happen in December. What was more alarming about this Windows 8 business, is how closed Microsoft was to popular opinion. The Windows 7 RC generated massive contributions. (It actually did... I am not just citing the "Windows 7 wsa my idea" ad campaign.) It seems that Windows 8 was entirely Microsoft's idea. If they want to be numb to the complaints of their own fanbase and turn Windows 8 into the bastard child of a currently non-existent Windows tablet and a Windows 7 PC, that is cool... I run Linux anyway. I was only responding to the developer preview to help them out. I do not think political PR stunts like this can change the fact that Microsoft is turning into a corporation more and more out of touch with their own customer base. Seriously, try to explain to corporate America why a clusterfuck start screen of different apps helps productivity. Windows 8 may be the greatest giveaway to RHEL ever, and not even appealing to populist disgust with CISPA is going to change that.

Re:Microsoft can capitalize on this. (0)

Sique (173459) | more than 2 years ago | (#39832453)

I'm starting to believe the Mayans about what's supposed to happen in December.

Completely offtopic, but you actually wouldn't believe the Mayans, because no single Mayan ever claimed that the world would come to an end, if a Long Period ends. This is just made up by some guys in other countries wanting to make a quick buck by selling "old myths of the navite people" books which predict dire doom to everyone.
If anything, the Mayan Calendar Doom is just intellectual colonialism - stealing some cultural artefacts and reselling them out of context to others.

On the other hand, Microsoft plans to sell their Cloud Services to Europeans too, and if they want to do that they have to make sure that their services follow European Law, and that means that they can't at the same time follow CISPA. If anyone of their european customers ever notices that their data is copied from the Microsoft Cloud, be sure that a big shitstorm of legal action will arise and deplete Microsoft of some serious money as a compensation.

Re:Microsoft can capitalize on this. (1)

betterunixthanunix (980855) | more than 2 years ago | (#39832507)

On the other hand, Microsoft plans to sell their Cloud Services to Europeans too, and if they want to do that they have to make sure that their services follow European Law, and that means that they can't at the same time follow CISPA

They could just operate one data center in the USA and one in Europe, and serve both markets with the same software. In the early 90s, Microsoft was worried about Europeans not buying their products because the NSA was pushing for back doors; this time around, Microsoft only needs to separate their customers by region. They might not even need two data centers; just one, with a region column in each table that dictates which laws and privacy rights need to be respected.

Re:Microsoft can capitalize on this. (3, Insightful)

Sique (173459) | more than 2 years ago | (#39833791)

No. CISPA requires (in its current reincarnation), that a U.S. company allows access to all its servers on a request based on CISPA, may they be domestic or overseas.
As such, CISPA collides with european requirements.

Re:Microsoft can capitalize on this. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#39832609)

Right...so basically you're a concern troll and a Linux user who thinks that Win 8 basically sucks. And you were modded up to 3 why?

Re:Microsoft can capitalize on this. (1)

tommasorepetti (2485820) | more than 2 years ago | (#39832655)

No, I like Windows 7 and still have an unwrapped copy of XP in case the world ends. Perhaps I should have said I use Linux and Windows. And yes, I think you will find that many people here believe that Windows 8 "basically sucks".

Re:Microsoft can capitalize on this. (1)

ColdWetDog (752185) | more than 2 years ago | (#39832881)

still have an unwrapped copy of XP in case the world ends.

OK, I'll bite. I know a number of doomers / survivalists and they hoard all manner of odd things. But an unwrapped copy of XP?

Do Zombies really go apesehit over the buffer overflows? Will we need the unpatched security holes to traverse the now-radioactive Internet? Can you eat the packaging?

Inquiring minds want to know.

Re:Microsoft can capitalize on this. (1)

silentcoder (1241496) | more than 2 years ago | (#39833969)

>No, I like Windows 7 and still have an unwrapped copy of XP in case the world ends.

I don't see how the wrapping will help... there aren't many world-end scenarios where anybody will be enforcing copyright licenses anymore... well unless you take yours from the more extreme corporate-rule cyberpunk stories of the 80's - but those don't exactly count as "world ended" in my book, they are just "world radically changed for the worse".
Either way they didn't happen and probably won't. They were based on a premise of the governments disappearing (or at least becoming irrelevant) and corporations ruling the world - but that didn't happen, if only because the corporations found the government to be much too useful as a tool.

Re:Microsoft can capitalize on this. (1)

game kid (805301) | more than 2 years ago | (#39832639)

They can capitalize on this, if they try; they haven't tried yet. What they've said now isn't a reversal at all, just a clarification at best. They probably already think CESSPOOL^WCISPA "helps to tackle the real threat of cybercrime while protecting consumer privacy", or can be massaged a bit to do so--especially if it helps make them look tough on "piracy" of their software.

How does MS cap on this, to regain whatever goodwill they bled from their customers and not look like they'll happily whore themselves out to any anti-"piracy" bill (as long as they can arbitrarily pick who's an MS "pirate") or to any "social", "app", or "tablet" trend? Simples.

  • Firmly and fully reject CISPA, ideally through a statement written and read in a public video by the CEO....ok, maybe not ideally by the CEO [wikipedia.org] .
  • Remove the OS-level Facebook integration (FB supports CISPA, after all). Bonus points if they include an easy-to-use Facebook domain blocker. (It's not like FB was paying them to do that...right? Right?)
  • Announce that the released Windows 8 will be Metro-optional, and not have it on by default. (Forcing people to call tech support to figure out a dumb new interface Creates Jobs(tm) for all the wrong reasons.)
  • Make a binding promise they'll never pull or abet something like what happened to that nonprofit group in Russia with the licenses, especially as part of a government's campaign against free speech or political opponents.
  • Avoid doing silly patent shit, broadly defined.

the real sign that Mayans where is the cubs wining (1)

Joe_Dragon (2206452) | more than 2 years ago | (#39832775)

the real sign that Mayans where is the cubs wining but that does not look like it will happen this year.

But windows 8 is fast becoming windows ME 2. ME sucked so bad that people wanted 98se over it.

I do hope that some of the new under the hood stuff get's back ported or shows up in a Unofficial Service Pack like how the Unofficial Windows 98 SE Service Pack adds some of new stuff that was in windows ME.

Re:Microsoft can capitalize on this. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#39833887)

I was only responding to the developer preview to help them out.

Why the fuck would anybody want to do that? Micro$oft is not a very nice company in case you haven't noticed...

This is the same old pattern (4, Insightful)

olsmeister (1488789) | more than 2 years ago | (#39832407)

They will keep putting forward bill after bill, chipping away privacy rights a little at a time if necessary. Any setback is merely temporary for them. Time (and money) is on their side.

What someone should be doing is introducing legislation that enumerates, codifies, and protects specific rights and expectations of privacy that citizens have, and then work the anti-terrorist/copying/IP laws around that framework. (I know, we shouldn't need to do this, but it's our system apparently.) This is bass-ackwards.

Re:This is the same old pattern (5, Insightful)

betterunixthanunix (980855) | more than 2 years ago | (#39832525)

What someone should be doing is introducing legislation that enumerates, codifies, and protects specific rights and expectations of privacy that citizens have

You would have to amend the constitution for that. Here is how I would word such an amendment:

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

Of course, there is no way anyone would dare to include such language in our constitution, at a time when we are surrounded by enemies who are hell-bent on destroying our nation. We could be attacked at any time; how can we even think of codifying such a right in our constitution?

Re:This is the same old pattern (2, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#39832943)

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

For those of you who didn't get the reference, that is the 4th Amendment of the US Constitution, proposed in 1789, and enacted in 1791.

Re:This is the same old pattern (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#39833613)

Would people please stop pretending that ISPs are the same as their customers? Nothing that protects you or your stuff protects information held about you by some third party private entity. Pretending that this isn't "evil overreaching freedom destroying" legislation to restrict private entities from sharing data about you is foolish. Swallow the reality of the situation and admit that freedom is a balance, not an absolute of action.

Re:This is the same old pattern (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#39833869)

If it requires an amendment to your constitution you might as well give up all hope. A document like that is impossible for the american government to write in this day and age.

(Hint: If they tried to write it today, it would be much MUCH different.)

Re:This is the same old pattern (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#39833911)

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

(..."on the Internet" or "with a computer")

If the US Patent Office is any indication, our government has this strange ideology that meatspace isn't the same thing as virtual space.

Re:This is the same old pattern (1)

davester666 (731373) | more than 2 years ago | (#39832839)

Evidently, the gov't is incapable of properly crafting laws (or, more likely, intentionally leaving loopholes through which they can do anything they want).

http://it.slashdot.org/story/12/04/27/1529239/who-needs-cispa-fbi-has-a-non-profit-workaround [slashdot.org]

If it's this simple to 'get around' laws preventing the transfer of certain types information from business to government (by sending it through a third-party), or route internet traffic through Canada so the FBI can process everything (where they can't do it in the US). With phone calls going to IP, what prevents the FBI from doing EXACTLY the same thing with all phone calls (just route the packets to the nearest border, and all laws suddenly don't apply).

Ok If no one knows (3, Informative)

fermion (181285) | more than 2 years ago | (#39832481)

To be sure, Microsoft's initial reaction to CISPA came before many of the privacy concerns had been raised. An anti-CISPA coalition letter (PDF) wasn't sent out until April 16, and a petition that garnered nearly 800,000 signatures wasn't set up until April 5.

So in other words MS was perfectly willing to allow the US government access to all it's customers data and machines without a warrant or any kind of reasonable probable cause as long as it was on the down low. But when it is publicized, they decide it is not such a s good idea. This situation leads credence that MS might already supply customer data on demand to the US government [judiciaryreport.com] , so this is really SNAFU.

One Down (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#39832591)

How many to go?

Facebook suppots CISPA (-1, Troll)

xiando (770382) | more than 2 years ago | (#39832653)

other terrorist organizations who fully support this bill include IBM, Boeing, AT&T, Oracle, Symantec, Verizon and Lockheed Martin. I wrote a blogpost about the corporatoins being CISPA ages ago [livelyblog.com] .

Re:Facebook suppots CISPA (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#39832727)

do you even know what terrorism even is? or do you just use scary words to get sheeple to your jackass blog? btw nice porn ad right in the middle of your article

Re:Facebook suppots CISPA (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#39833269)

Fuck you, troll. Symantec is a terrorist group? Whom have they murdered, Motherfucker?

Too little, too late (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#39832755)

and of course, much like politicians, they need someone else to point out that the results are decidedly contrary to their customers' (or voters') interests.

I think... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#39832819)

"notwithstanding any other provision of law,"

Find the person that wrote that part in the bill and shoot them as a trator!

End of story...

Superceding all other laws (4, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#39833071)

This bill supercedes the US constitution. Its a blank cheque to the content industries. For Americans wanting anything left of their civil liberties, they should fight this. Americans send missiles, guns, ships, and bombs to other countries to protect their interests. Why is no one sending these materials to the content industries that have effectively enslaved them? The content industries can commit capital crimes (murder, slavery, torture, anything they like) because of this bill. They crossed the line. Its a disgrace to all those who fought in any war in the US. The gutless legislators who supported this sold the farm. They don't deserve citizenship. The US can no longer be called a democracy, because it isn't.

Re:Superceding all other laws (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#39833633)

The constitution doesn't protect your from third parties talking to the government. How about understanding the issue instead of defending what you imagine the constitution is [theonion.com] ?

Corporation != Voter (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#39833441)

Last I checked a corporation couldn't vote, so I am sick to death of "them" supporting and even writing Bills and donating money to politicians. So until a corporation can actually go to prison for it's misdeeds (like bribing public officials), they should stay the hell out of politics.

Trust tech stories lately? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#39833579)

Does anyone else think it was one of the riders? One was attached to the bill that while proclaims to "protect privacy" actually expands CISPA even FURTHER than what was actually introduced. Jeez.

See #6...

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