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Database and IP Records Tie Election Fraud To Canada's Ruling Conservatives

timothy posted more than 2 years ago | from the ties-to-known-terrorists dept.

Canada 257

choongiri writes "Canada's election fraud scandal continues to unfold. Elections Canada just matched the IP address used to set up thousands of voter suppression robocalls to one used by a Conservative Party operative, and a comparison of call records found a perfect match between the illegal calls, and records of non-supporters in the Conservative Party's CIMS voter tracking database, as well as evidence access logs may have been tampered with. Meanwhile, legal challenges to election results are underway in seven ridings, and an online petition calling for an independent public inquiry into the crisis has amassed over 44,000 signatures. The Conservative Party still maintains their innocence, calling it a baseless smear campaign."

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257 comments

Oh yeah! (-1, Troll)

chekkerness (2430014) | more than 2 years ago | (#39902509)

I'm a buttnude extremist! Welcome me with open arms, slashdot! Together, we shall return to gamemakerdom!

Re:Oh yeah! (-1, Troll)

BootysnapChristAlive (2629837) | more than 2 years ago | (#39902565)

That cannot be! Such power...! I've never seen such high magnitudes of ferocity being exerted from a single cheek before...!

I shall return to Gamemakerdom right this minuteness.

Re:Oh yeah! (-1, Flamebait)

The Mighty Buzzard (878441) | more than 2 years ago | (#39902633)

Sorry, unless you're a hot chick you'll have to move along. We're already over our quota of males with extremist views sitting at their computers.

Baseless? (5, Insightful)

neokushan (932374) | more than 2 years ago | (#39902515)

Sounds like there's a lot of evidence to the contrary. At some point, it just stops being a coincidence.

Slogan! (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#39902599)

Sounds like a slogan for FOX "Fraudulent and Conservative".

Re:Baseless? (4, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#39902607)

Yes, but when you repeat something enough, and suppress alternative voices, it becomes true in the minds of the masses.

I don't know if mass media in Canada are under the total control of the far right as in the U.S., Australia, and England, but I bet they have a strong hand at least. In the US, one of the major networks is owned by one of the major arms manufacturers, GE who also forced their employees to sit through right-wing propaganda videos narrated by Ronald Reagan.

The same things have happened in several elections in the US, all Republicans (although the Democratic party is pretty much corrupt right-wing corporatist too). No consequences. It is so bad that there are even laws being passed to suppress votes of folks not likely to support an extremist right-wing ticket. Same thing too, smoking gun evidence, a hand wave from the accused, and all is forgotten.

Re:Baseless? (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#39903259)

are under the total control of the far right as in the U.S.

There are maybe three "far" right media outlets in the US, of any consequence. Not coincidentally, that's why they're so big.

Unless, of course, you're so far left you think the MSNBC, CNN, NYT, etc. are all "far right". Which is ridiculous.

Re:Baseless? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#39903547)

Yeah, you can try to shift the fulcrum to the right like that, but you won't end up with a balanced democracy. CNN, MSNBC, and the NYT are certainly right-of-center, as is the political perspective of many citizens whose interest in politics is directed by infotainment.

Re:Baseless? (3, Interesting)

Jah-Wren Ryel (80510) | more than 2 years ago | (#39903853)

In the US, one of the major networks is owned by one of the major arms manufacturers, GE who also forced their employees to sit through right-wing propaganda videos narrated by Ronald Reagan.

GE recently sold NBC to Comcast. That's probably even worse for the country as a whole though.

Re:Baseless? (-1, Troll)

aurispector (530273) | more than 2 years ago | (#39903933)

I don't know what you're smoking, but he mass media in the US is heavily slanted toward the left and the democratic party once you exclude fox news.

You're either deliberately spreading misinformation or terminally deluded.

Re: (4, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#39902777)

I am glad Canada is able to confront their voting manipulation, unlike Russia and the USA.

Re:Baseless? (4, Insightful)

geekmux (1040042) | more than 2 years ago | (#39902783)

Sounds like there's a lot of evidence to the contrary. At some point, it just stops being a coincidence.

We passed the point of coincidence and delved deep into blatant corruption in the US years ago. Doesn't surprise me that it has flowed outside of our borders. After all, we don't punish corruption. We reward it.

The problem is not discovering what is wrong. The real problem is finding you have no control to do anything about it anymore.

Re:Baseless? (5, Insightful)

msobkow (48369) | more than 2 years ago | (#39903263)

That's my biggest worry. That at the end of it, even with evidence pointing specifically to the Conservatives, that they'll get away with some wrist-slap fine and letting go a couple of people to be sacrificed to the court wolves.

But I can tell you this: The Harper government will not let go of power without fighting through every possible appeal in the courts that they can, even if this investigation doesn't take longer than their term of office. Mindless political party animal that it is, it's equivalent to the survival instinct is the instinct to seek power. Power is the food of the political animal, money is just the handler's proffered carrots.

There have to be more severe penalties for this kind of blatant interference with the government and electoral processes. In light of the Conservatives previous conviction for funding fraud which is what led to an election in the first place, I posit that the Conservatives should be stripped not only of office, but of their federal party status, officially and permanently disbanded.

We neither need nor want the Canadian Reform Alliance Party under any banner or name.

Re:Baseless? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#39903919)

Doesn't it make more sense to run a speedy emergency court session to review the evidence, if possible fraud is likely run new elections, and later lock up those directly involved in ordering the fraud? Then penalise the party financially for the cost of running a new election. If the cost is not practical (unavoidable or otherwise would cause disbanding of the party) then start looking at the roster for the party and fine any new party which is made up of 50% or more of the old.

Re:Baseless? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#39903269)

Honestly, at first glance, it smells like a cracked-wifi smear job. (Which may or may not mean I'm paranoid...)

I mean, what kinda fucking amateur would you have to be to pull that sort of operation from your home, instead of taking a laptop in your car and parking near some public WiFi access point? Then I think about all the dumb people I know, and suddenly the simple election "fraud" seems more likely (scare quotes because wouldn't it be great if both parties were to do this, and all the morons who'll believe anything a pretexter on the phone says were to get disenfranchised?), but it is still within the realm of possibility at this point.

Re:Baseless? (2)

Gonoff (88518) | more than 2 years ago | (#39903393)

I take it, that is their explanation to the court, If that isn't deeemed to be a valid explanation to the courts for people being done over by their corporate friends (RIAA etc), why should the courts accept it here?

H---er (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#39903749)

Two words: Weimar Republic

It's Canada (5, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#39902527)

As long as they did it in French, too, everything should be okay.

Re:It's Canada (1)

bidule (173941) | more than 2 years ago | (#39903301)

As long as they did it in French, too, everything should be okay.

You know how good them ex-Refomer are at French, they couldn't come up with a better translation than "vote NPD!"

Whatever happened in Ohio? (3, Insightful)

wisebabo (638845) | more than 2 years ago | (#39902557)

I'm surprised to see this kinda thing happening to our neighbors to the north. Compared to the cesspool that is American politics, I thought Canadian politics were squeaky clean. That's why I've always thought it would be a good place to run to (as James Cameron has evidently decided) in case the far right kooks took over.

Speaking of which, what ever happened to the investigations into Diebold and the voting machines in Ohio (and maybe more states)? Wasn't there enough evidence to start a criminal investigation? Or did it just fizzle because nobody cared?

Where's the outrage?

Re:Whatever happened in Ohio? (4, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#39902581)

It's because the same bastards that control US politics have shifted up into Canada as they have almost completely looted the US.

Now it's our turn.

Re:Whatever happened in Ohio? (4, Informative)

choongiri (840652) | more than 2 years ago | (#39902615)

There's growing evidence that Canada's Conservatives learned how to do this kind of fraud south of the border - e.g. a growing tangled web of links between them and US firms used by the republicans... http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/politics/article/1140344--conservative-mps-used-top-republican-firm-during-may-election [thestar.com]

Re:Whatever happened in Ohio? (2)

Sir_Sri (199544) | more than 2 years ago | (#39902929)

That's not really a shock though. Political campaigners only have work once every 2 years in the US, in off years and even off months they go to other english speaking countries and work with ideologically similar parties, and it goes back and forth.

Re:Whatever happened in Ohio? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#39903951)

As someone that's lived in chicagoland his whole life, I can honestly say there's absolutely nothing party-specific about fraud in politics.

Canada is just as corrupt - or even more so (5, Interesting)

Barbara, not Barbie (721478) | more than 2 years ago | (#39902691)

We have the second-largest province by population basically run by the Mafia, and the RCMP wanting to keep the evidence away from an official inquiry [www.cbc.ca] .

While we have students rioting in the streets because the government refuses to sit down and talk, we fine out the Education Minister took Mafia money [theglobeandmail.com] .

The mob skims 5% off the top of all large construction projects, decides who will be "allowed" to bid, and how the contracts will be divied up. This has been going on for at least 40 years.

And of course, this is just the tip of the iceberg.

Re:Canada is just as corrupt - or even more so (1)

Prune (557140) | more than 2 years ago | (#39903579)

You mean the students of Quebec rioting due to minor tuition increase when they already have, by far, the lowest tuition in the country?

Re:Whatever happened in Ohio? (3, Informative)

ohnocitizen (1951674) | more than 2 years ago | (#39902807)

It fizzled. In the meantime, record voter suppression laws have been successfully passed by the far right kooks in a number of states: http://www.aclu.org/maps/2011-voting-rights-under-attack-state-legislatures [aclu.org]

2012 will host a bunch of important and close elections, and an even greater portion of the American public won't even be allowed into the polls. Other methods of voter suppression will happen on top of that insidious base.

Re:Whatever happened in Ohio? (3, Insightful)

turbidostato (878842) | more than 2 years ago | (#39902871)

"It fizzled. In the meantime, record voter suppression laws have been successfully passed by the far right kooks in a number of states"

I'm not an expert on internal USA matters, so I won't doubt you are in the truth.

But certainly not because of the provided evidence... which I took the time to read and that basically ends up to: "nine states won't allow to cast votes to badly or un-identified persons". I happen to think that's a good thing.

Re:Whatever happened in Ohio? (-1, Flamebait)

Rockoon (1252108) | more than 2 years ago | (#39902967)

Isnt the fact that his citation complete crap enough evidence to lead you to doubt if what he is saying is true? In other words... whats wrong with you? We know whats wrong with him... but you?

Re:Whatever happened in Ohio? (3, Informative)

MightyYar (622222) | more than 2 years ago | (#39903059)

But certainly not because of the provided evidence... which I took the time to read and that basically ends up to: "nine states won't allow to cast votes to badly or un-identified persons". I happen to think that's a good thing.

The problem with political discourse in the US is that people always have to be on a team and can't think objectively like you just did. The result is that we have the most ridiculous arguments. In this case, we have some small amount of voter fraud... dead people voting, vote buying, etc. An obvious solution is to do a better job with voter identity. Of course, any time you make voting requirements more stringent, you disenfranchise people. And as it happens, the people who have the most trouble with voting requirements are the poor.

Now, reasonable people who don't associate with a team could sit down and talk about where to draw the line such that you have a suitable balance between voter fraud and disenfranchisement. Add partisan politics, and it just becomes a "you hate the poor", "you have a vested interest in voter fraud" argument.

In PA, I think it is a pretty reasonable law - you must show photo ID to vote. If you do not have an ID you can still cast a provisional ballot which will get counted when you bring proof of ID. If you cannot afford a government ID, you can sign an affidavit stating that you are too poor to afford one at any motor vehicle center and they will give you an ID for free. Now, this still has a greater effect on the poor than on the rich - but it's not a terrible balance IMHO. If anything, the failure has been to spend money getting the word out.

Re:Whatever happened in Ohio? (2)

forand (530402) | more than 2 years ago | (#39903819)

So it is reasonable to force citizens to pay for a government issued ID to vote? I was under the impression that, as a citizen I had the right to vote and be free from unwarranted search by my government. Requiring me to obtain a government issued ID to express my opinion in a democracy is something that must either be encoded in the constitution or not allowed. Requiring government issued ID without requiring it at birth means you will disenfranchise legitimate voters who, until some law that they can now no longer vote out the representative who passed it made that impossible.

I have no issue with federally issued government ID that is given at birth and somehow actually tied the the individual. However I do not think here is any reasonable way of implementing such an ID and voter fraud (illegitimate voters casting votes) is NOT a problem in the US as many others in this thread have noted.

The only objective that requiring a government issued ID in the US accomplishes is disenfranchising the poor, the young, and the old.

Re:Whatever happened in Ohio? (4, Insightful)

Jah-Wren Ryel (80510) | more than 2 years ago | (#39903907)

In this case, we have some small amount of voter fraud... dead people voting, vote buying, etc. An obvious solution is to do a better job with voter identity.

In this case we have such a small amount of voter fraud [nytimes.com] that it is significantly less than the margin of error in the counting process. Given that basic fact, any argument for tightening up access to voting must be seen as disinegenuous.

Re:Whatever happened in Ohio? (5, Insightful)

ohnocitizen (1951674) | more than 2 years ago | (#39903147)

If you don't understand how requiring picture id suppresses voters who have other forms of id, then yeah, you don't get it. Voter Fraud in the US is a myth (http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/10/opinion/the-myth-of-voter-fraud.html). What we are left with is populations of people (students, the poor) who typically vote Democrat, and have trouble getting through the hoops Republicans enjoy throwing in their place. So yes, these laws are indeed an assault on voting rights.

Re:Whatever happened in Ohio? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#39903175)

But certainly not because of the provided evidence... which I took the time to read and that basically ends up to: "nine states won't allow to cast votes to badly or un-identified persons". I happen to think that's a good thing.

Except blacks and Latinos (who tend to vote, on average, for Democrats) are the ones that tend to have "bad" ID papers. Many don't have things like driver licenses (never mind passports).

I'm all for IDing voters, but if you look at the fine print for a lot of the laws passed, it's basically targeting particular demographics (which is uncool IMHO).

Re:Whatever happened in Ohio? (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#39902993)

2012 will host a bunch of important and close elections, and an even greater portion of the American public won't even be allowed into the polls. Other methods of voter suppression will happen on top of that insidious base.

I love how liberals have some how managed to turn "preventing voter fraud" into "voter suppression." I suppose at the most pedantic level, it's true. By preventing people from fraudulently voting, you are suppressing their vote.

Oh no, you might be required to show a picture ID to vote! Check in your wallet. See that state-issued card with your picture on it? The one you need to drive and buy alcohol? Congratulations! You can vote!

Oh no, you cry, I might not have a driver's license. Except I do because almost everyone does, but theoretically I might not. Well, have no fear! Any valid ID is OK! And every state offers a non-driver's license photo ID.

Whenever I hear people complain about "voter suppressing," all I hear is "if we're not allowed to vote as dead people, we might not win elections!"

Re:Whatever happened in Ohio? (4, Insightful)

SpeZek (970136) | more than 2 years ago | (#39903249)

Oh no, you might be required to show a picture ID to vote! Check in your wallet. See that state-issued card with your picture on it? The one you need to drive and buy alcohol? Congratulations! You can vote!

Shit, is it behind my bus pass or my food credits card?

Oh no, you cry, I might not have a driver's license. Except I do because almost everyone does, but theoretically I might not. Well, have no fear! Any valid ID is OK! And every state offers a non-driver's license photo ID.

Oh, shit, you mean the state-issued photo ID that costs money (that some folks can't afford, living paycheck to paycheck) and requires one to take the entire day off work (again, that some folks can't afford) to get on a weekday?

Check your privilege.

Re:Whatever happened in Ohio? (0, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#39903437)

The person you just described:

  I have a paycheck to paycheck job that I take the bus to get to. I use food stamps. I do not have the time nor the 10 to 20 usd to pay for a legal ID to vote but I've managed to get food stamps, a job, cash my paychecks, a bank account(?), get utilities for my place of residence and a bus pass without any sort of id whatsoever.

Your argument...no water does it hold.

Re:Whatever happened in Ohio? (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#39903319)

2012 will host a bunch of important and close elections, and an even greater portion of the American public won't even be allowed into the polls. Other methods of voter suppression will happen on top of that insidious base.

I love how liberals have some how managed to turn "preventing voter fraud" into "voter suppression." I suppose at the most pedantic level, it's true. By preventing people from fraudulently voting, you are suppressing their vote.

Oh no, you might be required to show a picture ID to vote! Check in your wallet. See that state-issued card with your picture on it? The one you need to drive and buy alcohol? Congratulations! You can vote!

Oh no, you cry, I might not have a driver's license. Except I do because almost everyone does, but theoretically I might not. Well, have no fear! Any valid ID is OK! And every state offers a non-driver's license photo ID.

Whenever I hear people complain about "voter suppressing," all I hear is "if we're not allowed to vote as dead people, we might not win elections!"

A drivers license is something unnecessary in near any US City, and is a privilege and expense, which would hit low wage and minorities harder than suburbans who you can assume by right of passage get their license. In defense of your argument state issued ID cards are accessible and in some states even free. But it does not change the idea of forcing people go jump through hoops to be allowed to vote, and when considered in context with many laws written during and before the civil-rights movement which where directly aimed at voter suppression of minorities. I would have to contend the argument against these laws deserves some serious credence.

Re:Whatever happened in Ohio? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#39902909)

The main difference is that Canadians, as in this situation, are (only) somewhat more willing to stand up to corruption and seek to correct it.

Re:Whatever happened in Ohio? (1)

quantaman (517394) | more than 2 years ago | (#39902911)

Actually since you mention it I regularly hear about these kinds of shenanigans or worse during US elections, though it never makes a real splash. I'm actually relieved that the same stuff up here is still able to draw outrage.

Re:Whatever happened in Ohio? (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#39902971)

Canada's politics have been for a very long time. The earliest incident I can clearly recall would be Ad-Scam, where the liberals managed to steal 1/4 $Billion (yes, B-billion) from Canadians. The reason you don't think it happens is because Canadians don't see it as a big deal--the same liberal party with the same leaders, and many of the same members involved in the scam were voted in multiple times since then.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sponsorship_scandal

As for a simple voting/power scandal, you can go way back for that. In 1926 the Liberal party abused the Governor General to get into power.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King-Byng_Affair

There's plenty of conservative scandals--I'm only listing Liberal scandals because it seems the posters above have all the Conservative ones covered already.

Re:Whatever happened in Ohio? (1)

dkleinsc (563838) | more than 2 years ago | (#39903169)

Or did it just fizzle because nobody cared?

No, the prosecutors who made sure the investigation fizzled absolutely cared - they cared that they and their buddies didn't get caught breaking the law.

Well, isn't that interesting. (3, Insightful)

Daniel Dvorkin (106857) | more than 2 years ago | (#39902573)

The Conservatives engage in massive election fraud, while their co-ideologues south of the border, the Republicans, make political hay with completely baseless complaints of widespread voter fraud. If I were a suspicious, conspiracy-minded sort, I might think there was some sort of connection. "Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain." But surely this kind of thing is just a coincidence ... right?

Re:Well, isn't that interesting. (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#39902729)

The Conservatives have very often hired Republican strategist and doublespeak experts(they actually identify themselves as that). They tend to share the same scruples.

Re:Well, isn't that interesting. (1)

chispito (1870390) | more than 2 years ago | (#39902767)

Stop trying to score political points off this. You should maintain a healthy skepticism of ALL politicians and those who cling to them.

Re:Well, isn't that interesting. (2)

MightyYar (622222) | more than 2 years ago | (#39903077)

That wouldn't help his team.

Re:Well, isn't that interesting. (5, Insightful)

Daniel Dvorkin (106857) | more than 2 years ago | (#39903337)

You should maintain a healthy skepticism of ALL politicians and those who cling to them.

Indeed. And part of that healthy skepticism is recognizing that while all political parties are inherently brutal and corrupt, they are not equally so; some are, in fact, markedly worse than others. The "oh, forget about it, they're all the same" attitude that a lot of people take is intellectual laziness which, if enough people adopt it, paves the road to power for real monsters.

Re:Well, isn't that interesting. (1)

MightyMartian (840721) | more than 2 years ago | (#39903927)

The robocalling scandal certainly takes it to another level, but dirty tricks, even if just defacing opposing candidates' election signs, has gone on for a long time. I worked for a fellow who was a campaign manager and he had stories to tell about harassing phone calls, letting air out of tires, send small squads of hecklers to shout down other candidates at election events. Yes, these are lesser evils than deliberately trying to fool voters directly, but you can see a continuum here. We have a bunch of pumped up people who, for whatever psychological reason, view their candidate or party's success as the most important thing in the world, and thus enter the realm where the ends justify the means.

Quite frankly, I think any card-carrying party member should probably have their head examined. I consider extreme partisanship to be something of a mental disorder. You can kind of forgive it in the young, because if they weren't worshiping at the feet of the party leader, they'd probably be worshiping at the feet of Marilyn Manson or some football superstar. But it's the middle aged guys that get me. You would think that at some point along the road they would have become wise to the fact that parties are fundamentally corrupt creatures, dens of inequity and sin, machines of special interests masquerading as electoral beacons.

Re:Well, isn't that interesting. (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#39903583)

Before you go blaming 'the other' team consider this. I have lived in the state of NC. I have seen democrats doing the *exact same thing*. I have seen robocalls, gerymandering, fillabusters, etc etc etc. Then turn around and make it legal (after all they make the laws).

This sort of *SHIT* is par for the course. Do not put up with from any party (even your own), I dont.

Also you are falling for a standard divide and conquer method the media has been using for years to drum up ratings. 'Those dirty xyz group look at what they did now'. Do not let them do it to you.

Thousands? (-1, Troll)

Mashiki (184564) | more than 2 years ago | (#39902575)

The last report from EC stated that there might be a few hundred. Especially since the majority of the claims of the robocalls showed to be either non-provable, or outright fabrications. Well, I guess if Soros can fund groups in the US to have people call in with claims of false voter supression. He can in Canada too, and that's happened as well.

Re:Thousands? (2)

Em Adespoton (792954) | more than 2 years ago | (#39902645)

"comparison of call records found a perfect match between the illegal calls, and records of non-supporters in the Conservative Party's CIMS voter tracking database, as well as evidence access logs may have been tampered with"

While I think the robocall scandal itself may be a bit overblown, the digging into it is finding a surprising number of facts that don't line up with a clean election campaign. So if you take the "false claims of supression" line, please come up with a reason that someone with access to the CP's CMS would call all those people to get them to call in. Since the logs have been tampered with, it's possible that someone hacked in, grabbed the data and attempted to frame them, but that seems even more of an unfounded conspiracy theory than the CPs intentionally conducting election fraud in the first place.

In any case, there's enough evidence pointing to wrongdoing on someone's part -- now they just have to figure out who was responsible, and what their intent was -- and who was behind them.

Yes, thousands. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#39902689)

There are a few hundred investigations that are ongoing (250 across 200 ridings). According to the evidence gathered so far, there were thousands of calls made with a complaint rate of about 1%. Elections Canada received thousands of letters expressing concern about vote fraud, but many of them did not claim that they were personally defrauded.

Re:Thousands? (4, Informative)

choongiri (840652) | more than 2 years ago | (#39902705)

Yes, thousands. In Guelph alone, there were at least 7,670 - EC knows this from records they were able to subpoena from RackNine - http://www.montrealgazette.com/news/Fraudulent+robocalls+absolutely+outrageous+Mayrand/6383004/story.html [montrealgazette.com] - those same records matched the CPC's CIMS database exactly. Now that's just the ones that "pierre poutine" set up - it's looking increasingly likely he was a rogue, but there was an underlying and much more pervasive and carefully executed national strategy - http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/story/2012/04/24/pol-election-calls-poll.html [www.cbc.ca] - If pierre poutine hadn't gone and blown it by going overboard, we might never have found out.

Re:Thousands? (2)

Barbara, not Barbie (721478) | more than 2 years ago | (#39902709)

Most of the claims can't be proven - who goes around recording every phone call they get? It was just luck that someone got it on tape.

For every call that was proven to date, there were probably plenty more that were either forgotten about at the time, missed, ignored, or acted upon and the people figured "why report it - it won't change anything with this gang of crooks."

Re:Thousands? (1)

MightyMartian (840721) | more than 2 years ago | (#39902747)

Could you provide a link to said report because the last official word on the extent of the robocalls said dozens of tidings were involved and what you're saying would mean Elections Canada just repudiated everything it had said for months.

The IP address in question... (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#39902587)

http://i.imgur.com/v5ck3.jpg

99.225.28.34

Resident of Guelph here, and absolutely in tears about Pierre of "Pierre's Poutine" being linked to the scandal. /Didn't get robocalled

Conservatives of the World, Unite! (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#39902623)

Well, at least we know that conversatives everywhere employ the same methods...

Re:Conservatives of the World, Unite! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#39902843)

And they get together to share the methods, in a UNION no less!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Democrat_Union [wikipedia.org]

How about that! (4, Insightful)

WindBourne (631190) | more than 2 years ago | (#39902663)

Canada's conservatives are becoming a lot more like American republicans. Now, they simply need to share information to see how to cheat at it better.

Re:How about that! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#39902671)

You're just upset because the Democrats have to bribe actually people to do the voting, with union payoffs, cigarettes, food, etc. It's much less efficient that way.

Re:How about that! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#39903071)

Yeah, the Democrats have to deliver. The Republicans can pretend to promise!

Re:How about that! (1)

Bill Dimm (463823) | more than 2 years ago | (#39903183)

...have to bribe actually people to do the voting, with union payoffs, cigarettes, food, etc.

So inefficient. In Philly they literally just hand out cash for votes [wikipedia.org]

Re:How about that! (1)

rogueippacket (1977626) | more than 2 years ago | (#39903095)

I'm not so certain anymore - the Conservative Party has been slowly drifting to centre. If you need proof, go and check out the Wild Rose party of Alberta. They make the Conservative Party (provincial and federal) look like the demigods of democracy and fair-play. The frightening bit is 30% of the province wanted to elect them, almost out of nowhere. The mast majority of the province actually voted Conservative just to keep them out.

Re:How about that! (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#39903239)

the Conservative Party has been slowly drifting to centre. If you need proof, go and check out the Wild Rose party of Alberta

Firstly, the Conservative Party of Alberta is not the same as the Conservative Party of Canada. In Canada, provincial political parties have not been affiliated with federal parties in any way (other than name) for at least forty years.

Secondly, that in Alberta, the most politically conservative of any Canadian province or territory, there is a relatively new political party (the Wild Rose Party) that is even more conservative/right wing than the ruling Alberta Conservative party, is not proof of any kind that the federal Conservative party (or any other provincial Conservative party) is becoming more centrist.

In fact, now that Harper has a majority government, the federal Conservative party is showing itself to be even more right wing than previously.

fall guy. (1, Redundant)

Dzimas (547818) | more than 2 years ago | (#39902675)

The national party will simply claim that the robocalls were the work of a rogue campaign employee in a single riding who misused the organization's confidential database. One guy is going to get hung out to dry and they'll let time cloud the collective memory.

Re:fall guy. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#39902711)

They already did this months ago, to a volunteer working in the same Guelph riding who tried to physically take the poll box from a voting station. He's behind it all, I tells ya!

Liberals are somehow purer than the Virgin Mary (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#39902727)

As if the party that promises all the goodies NEVER engage in similar behavior because they have human nature on their side (easier to be lazy and collect than to be ambitious and EARN, WORK, SAVE, INVEST, CREATE, TAKE RISK, etc.)

--

See those plaques on the wall? Those entitle me to a living by picking YOUR pockets via the rubric of GOVERNMENT!

Re:Liberals are somehow purer than the Virgin Mary (4, Insightful)

ATMAvatar (648864) | more than 2 years ago | (#39902881)

Perhaps, but I've yet to see news of such a conspiracy from the liberal side. It is healthy to treat both sides with a fair amount of skepticism, but don't let the news of one side openly committing fraud turn into a belief that the other is automatically guilty of the same.

Innocent until proven guilty, and all that.

Re:Liberals are somehow purer than the Virgin Mary (0)

Rockoon (1252108) | more than 2 years ago | (#39903099)

Where [foxnews.com] have [iowntheworld.com] you [naplesnews.com] been? [thegatewaypundit.com] Fucking [post-gazette.com] mars? [usbacklash.org]

I found those in about 5 seconds with google. Thats 100% first page results. WHAT THE FUCK DUDE? Completely fucking blind much? We've got in there convictions, tens of thousands of out-of-state residents voting, and so on? What the fuck?

Re:Liberals are somehow purer than the Virgin Mary (3, Insightful)

History's Coming To (1059484) | more than 2 years ago | (#39902919)

Right-wingers tend to exhibit much stronger religious fervour than moderates or left wingers. And as "doing gods work" trumps national laws they're more likely to break them. It's much the same situation as pre-reformation Europe, national leaders are treating the laws of their country as secondary to whatever they think god is telling them to do. Which means we're due another reformation, like it or not, and a whole bunch more religion based violence and suppression. Woop-de-doo.

Re:Liberals are somehow purer than the Virgin Mary (1)

SnEptUne (1264814) | more than 2 years ago | (#39903669)

I think they are just really good at pretending to be relgious to earn votes. They claimed to be Christian, but acts contrary to Jesus' teaching.

Re:Liberals are somehow purer than the Virgin Mary (1)

History's Coming To (1059484) | more than 2 years ago | (#39903797)

Agreed, but which is more scary?

"I'm doing this because god told me to"
"I'm doing this because I feel like it, but if I say god told me to do it you're all cool with that?"

Re:Liberals are somehow purer than the Virgin Mary (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#39902989)

What are you talking about? The more left wing you are, the harder you have to work: you work for everyone rather than yourself, and you do not accept making a living from investing capital or renting out land.

The whole point in capitalism is that you reduce your workload by only having to think of yourself and by finding ways of making money "work" for you. I'm not judging whether that's good or bad, but it's a darn sight more lazy than socialism.

Suppress Away (-1, Troll)

johnwerneken (74428) | more than 2 years ago | (#39902735)

Its not fraud to call a dumbie and convince them not to vote. I suppose if one claims to be the Elections Office that's another matter. But dumbies shouldn't vote anyway - especially considering that they mostly vote fore their ecofreak leff loonie peers in intelligence. Hoorah for Canada's Conservatives!

Re:Suppress Away (4, Informative)

Cruciform (42896) | more than 2 years ago | (#39902829)

Maybe you should pay attention before commenting.
The calls notified voters that the polling stations had moved. This led to people missing the opportunity to vote because the actual stations were closed by the time the deception was discovered.

Re:Suppress Away (1)

Fwipp (1473271) | more than 2 years ago | (#39903065)

+1 Informative, because people seem to be unaware of this.

Re:Suppress Away (4, Informative)

MightyMartian (840721) | more than 2 years ago | (#39903163)

Some of these calls apparently claimed they were from Elections Canada, and the law is not written that the only way this is illegal is if you pose as an Elections Canada representative, but any attempt to prevent a voter from exercising their right is illegal.

typical (1)

Titan1080 (1328519) | more than 2 years ago | (#39902755)

'The Conservative Party still maintains their innocence...' One thing repubs are great at, denying ironclad evidence.

So? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#39902799)

Breaking news: Politicians are lying sacks of shit! Film at Eleven!!!!111111111111111eleventyone

Slip of the tongue (2)

bidule (173941) | more than 2 years ago | (#39902845)

Considering how often our PM said we were getting an erection, I'm not surprised we got the shaft.

Meanwhile at the Globe and Mail (4, Insightful)

rueger (210566) | more than 2 years ago | (#39902847)

Watch as the "mainstream media" twists itself into knots trying to avoid stating what everyone knows: The Tories broke the law, and arguably stole at a least a couple of seats. And given the penchant for micromanaging there's no way the Prime Minister didn't know about it.

Re:Meanwhile at the Globe and Mail (0)

gagol (583737) | more than 2 years ago | (#39902935)

Instightful +1, too bad I have no points left.

What's even worse (4, Insightful)

Hentes (2461350) | more than 2 years ago | (#39902857)

What really surprised me is that the conservatives don't even try to hide that they are compiling a database of their supporters and rejecters. This goes against the very idea of secret ballot voting, and in most civilised countries is at least theoretically illegal.

Re:What's even worse (1)

MightyMartian (840721) | more than 2 years ago | (#39903181)

Actually most political parties in the Western world compile voter lists, and since, curiously enough, all these laws out there banning telemarketing explicitly give political parties an out, they've nicely made sure it isn't illegal.

Profiling voters is an extraordinarily important aspect of modern political campaigning at the ground level.

Re:What's even worse (1)

Hentes (2461350) | more than 2 years ago | (#39903705)

Voter lists and supporter databases are two different things. Yes, political parties can legally use voter lists for telemarketing/snailmail spamming, but that's fundamentally different from making a list of friends and enemies.

"Want to get a job in the public sector? Sorry, our database shows that you didn't support the currently ruling party last election."

Re:What's even worse (1)

MightyMartian (840721) | more than 2 years ago | (#39903789)

Is it? It strikes me that if you have a list of voter affiliations, then you automatically have a list that could be regarded by those who suffer from the partisanship disease as a list of friends and enemies.

I'm not saying CIMS, or any such database (and most political parties with any resources in most democratic countries have them), is compiled for the purpose of identifying your enemies. It has uses such as projecting electoral results, finding the demographics in question to determine how to tailor the message, in some cases being able to tell what voters not to bother with at all, and so on. There are lots of what one might consider legitimate uses for such lists, but at the end of the day, if you are sufficiently bloody minded, that list can be turned on its head and used, as the cliche goes, for evil.

This is why I pretty much refuse to answer any question on my political leanings to strangers on the phone; whether they be pollsters or political parties (and honestly, with this sort of conduct going on, I can well imagine that campaign workers and hired called centers are likely being hired to impersonate pollsters as well). How I will vote is no one's business; not a political party's, not a pollsters, not even my wife's.

Re:What's even worse (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#39903291)

Well, flame me to a crisp, but here's why -- the conservative ideology is elitist. By that I mean they see democracy as damage to route around. Democracy and voters are held in contempt, seen as something that needs to be managed. It's an ends justifies the means philosophy. Democracy is a game to be played with sharp dealing, not a crucial institution to be defended.

That's in no way to say all leftish politicians are inherently honest, or that all politically conservative people are inherently against democracy. It's a generalization that is useful for understanding some basic and strong underlying currents, and like all generalizations it's about as delicate as oven mitts in use.

But that's why the Canadian Conservatives and their supporters would pull that shit without even realizing they should at least /act/ embarrassed about it until far too late.

Re:What's even worse (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#39903955)

Actually, that is allowed. But let them try. The possibility of something nefarious is one of the reasons I've never told any party representative they can "count on my support". Maybe they can guess what party I might vote for, but judging by the fact that all three main party candidates usually show up at my door around election time, I don't think they know.

Are you a man or a sheep? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#39902927)

Are robocalls mind control vectors? No. You are free to evaluate the information and make your own choice. It's no different than TV advertising, and probably much less effective.

Does Anybody Remember... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#39902939)

when the conservative party had a minority gov. and got a vote of non-confidence...

Make the penalties REALLY severe (4, Insightful)

wisebabo (638845) | more than 2 years ago | (#39902953)

I'd like to think that the solution to this sort of thing (voting fraud) could be effectively combatted by making the penalties really severe, like a multi-decade stay in prison. I feel that the consequences are serious enough, after all the BASIC premise of our DEMOCRACY is at stake; one person one vote. I mean how many nations do we despise, condemn or even sanction for not allowing this basic right regardless of how much it has been perverted or corrupted by practices like buying votes or dirty politics. Even when "the people" make stupid mistakes REPEATEDLY (Bush 2000, 2004), we allow them that right.

So denying that right should be treated very very seriously. If, in fact, the criminal act was carried out by a single or few individuals then fine, a long prison term should discourage others. Otherwise, in the best of worlds, a plea bargain will be made in which they'll finger the real perpetrators; the big fish who are doing this systematically and on a large scale. THEY should be prosecuted and sent to prison for a long long time.

Unfortunately the reason why I said "in the best of worlds" is because some of these individuals may be motivated by a higher calling (and not just by the reward of public office or money). If they truly believe that what they are doing serves some sort of meta-physical goal, their beliefs may cause them to act without fear of earthly punishments. Suicide bombers, to take an extreme example, are unlikely to be dissuaded by even the death penalty. This is just another way in which extremism destroys what most people would call civilization and would return us to the pious but desperately impoverished middle ages.

Re:Make the penalties REALLY severe (1)

Green Salad (705185) | more than 2 years ago | (#39903097)

Please mod parent up!

Re:Make the penalties REALLY severe (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#39903101)

Does not work.

If you make the penalties severe, the only thing that will happen that courts will be hesitant to enforce the statute.

(I know it's an anti-theme to Americans, but then the USA is itself turning into a police state itself, one example is the Austrian law making all kinds of Nazism related stuff illegal. For 5 decades the law was utterly severe, by local standards, somewhere between armed robbery and murder when it comes to the penalty. For 5 decades it was practically dead law. Then the penalties was lowered, and voila, the Austrian right started collecting rap sheets and jail vacations.)

What experience shows that you can only control "bad behavior" if you make the "behavior" in acceptable to the general public.

Vote fraud is probably illegal already. A Crown Attorney that would be motivated by a public outcry would certainly be able to find something to stick to the perps. One can argue that better laws might make that easier and better, but no matter what the law says, if the Crown Attorney kills the case it's irrelevant. (See certain cases where law enforcement or the D.A. decide not to press charges, it really does not matter if what you did is illegal.)

Re:Make the penalties REALLY severe (2)

MightyMartian (840721) | more than 2 years ago | (#39903881)

In this regard, I think what will happen is that Elections Canada will get broader investigative and prosecutorial powers. The opposition parties are clamoring for it, and as it becomes clearer that CIMS was accessed specifically for the purpose of interfering with the election, the Conservatives will feel forced to bend in that direction. I have to wonder if, somewhere in a dark dark room at each of the opposition parties' HQs, there isn't some committee of strategists groaning that giving EC this much power will cost them all in the long run.

Re:Make the penalties REALLY severe (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#39903325)

Oddly, Bush actually got less votes than Gore in 2000, he just managed to get more electoral votes

Although he received 543,895 fewer individual votes than Gore nationwide, Bush won the election, receiving 271 electoral votes to Gore's 266.[82]

82. ^ "2000 Official General Election Presidential Results" [fec.gov] . Federal Election Commission. December 2001. Retrieved September 1, 2008.

- scraped from Wikipedia [wikipedia.org]

Conservatives more or less the same everywhere. (2)

gestalt_n_pepper (991155) | more than 2 years ago | (#39903241)

Fairness and truth don't matter. Like all sociopaths, they feel above the rules. All that matters is winning. Florida in 2000. Canada. It's all the same.

Heh Heh Heh (1)

SeaFox (739806) | more than 2 years ago | (#39903343)

Now what? Trying to claim that IP addresses are not enough evidence to identify someone will only help the people being targeting by the recording/movie industry for file sharing.

Assad regime claims innocence too (1)

kawabago (551139) | more than 2 years ago | (#39903659)

I think I'd believe the Syrians first.

FFS! (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#39903953)

Can we just get rid of the government already? Everything problem it "solves" just gets worse. All these problems would be solved by the market, absent government intervention.

Yeah, I know allot of us have political Stockholm Syndrome and want to believe the government is necessary and takes care of us, but it's time to get over it! We have to end this madness! You can't have an institution of sanctioned violence and not expect it to be tyrannical.

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