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OS X Won't Be Fully Functional On March 24th

timothy posted more than 13 years ago | from the caveat-emptor dept.

Apple 262

mduell writes: "Just saw this over on MSNBC. It looks like Apple rushed OS X to meet the deadline, and that many key features (like DVD playing and burning) won't be functional when it ships on the 24th of this month. Also, there won't be a big splashy introduction, perhaps one in the summer when Puma (OS X 1.1) comes out." Which is not to say that Mac owners can't watch DVDs -- if they are dual-booting, at least. The article gets into a few other gripes as well, but none sounds earthshaking to me.

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Wait a second... this sounds like another beta! (1)

zoomba (227393) | more than 13 years ago | (#386427)

Hrrm, let's look at this here... unsupported hardware that's become industry standard, numerous bugs and errors that can cause system hangs or freezes, those bugs are acknowledged by Apple, and they're saying that they really want people to just wait a few months for the real thing to come out.

This sounds EXACTLY like a beta test, except they're charging money for it AGAIN, and will most likely charge for the OS X 1.0 to 1.1 upgrade. Good marketing plan guys, release a product you know doesn't fully work and then charge your most devout followers twice over for it. Apple needs to reexamine it's approach to its users, this is like a slap in the face.


Now I'm off to the store to get some food before that damn nor'easter hits and ruins my spring break

Re:Forget DVD Support.... (1)

call -151 (230520) | more than 13 years ago | (#386430)

Printing support in the beta was great for Postscript and networked printers, but for "commodity" inkjets it was very weak, and since Apple was putting the burden on Epson, etc. to write their own drivers, it didn't happen and doesn't seem real likely to happen quickly, particularly for older inkjets. What is the incentive on the printer manufacturer's part? They'd rather sell a new printer instead of write a driver for a printer they sold 3 years ago for $100.

Not for me. (1)

TomatoMan (93630) | more than 13 years ago | (#386431)

I'm waiting for OSX as fanatically as anybody, but here's why I can't use OSX on a daily basis:

- I can't print
- I can't use my external USB drives, USB scanner, or SCSI CD-RW
- My 3rd-party mouse is barely functional.

Yes, I love running emacs in term windows and so on, but I need access to my devices. On the other hand, my spankin' new TiBook is just a toy for playing Diablo on until I get Darwin, so I NEED OSX. Lack of DVD support sucks, because that was going to be the coup-de-grace killersexycool thing I showed off to my Windows-weenie friends (and brother). I didn't want to have two partitions, I wanted to go all-out OSX. Looks like I can't until summer. :(


Re:Apple wishing it had purchased BE! (1)

Knobby (71829) | more than 13 years ago | (#386434)

With Jobs at the helm? I doubt it!

Re:The slashdot consensus on Apple (1)

rakslice (90330) | more than 13 years ago | (#386437)

"slashdot consensus". Time to switch drugs, my man. =)

Re:They never learn (1)

chrischow (133164) | more than 13 years ago | (#386438)

they not pushing it out the door early, the OS is done, whats late is stuff like the DVD player s/w. which sounds like an app to me. its like saying Microsoft release Windows X early because Office Y is not ready.

Re:Not What You Think (1)

chrischow (133164) | more than 13 years ago | (#386440)

maybe he, like the majority of mac users, doesn't have DVD drive in his mac?

Re:Forget DVD Support.... (2)

stripes (3681) | more than 13 years ago | (#386441)

Apple was putting the burden on Epson, etc. to write their own drivers, it didn't happen and doesn't seem real likely to happen quickly, particularly for older inkjets.

OH! Well, yeah. I guess if there is no OSX driver they should rasterise the PDF stuff on their own (the existing Preview app can turn PDF into TIFF files -- which it can screw up about as badly as ghostscript) and hand it off to the print driver in Classic....

Re:Copland (1)

chrischow (133164) | more than 13 years ago | (#386442)

i thought OSX PB has colorsync already?

DVD Drives Not Elemental to the Experience (2)

MoNickels (1700) | more than 13 years ago | (#386445)

Hey, I've got a DVD drive on my PowerBook, too, and I appreciate everyone's "I want it all now" stance, but only to the point of reasonableness. A DVD drive is not a fundamental part of the computing experience, included or not, advertised or not. If you bought a $5000 computer (or even $2000) primarily because it plays DVDs, then you're a pretty sad case. It's an extra. I use the CD-ROM capabilities far more, and that works find under OS X.

And while appreciate, too, the frustrations of having to boot into OS 9, I'd like to toss out a gentle reminder that you don't have to upgrade right away. Wait a little. Let the cutting edge be dulled by others who will suffer for you, fill the message boards with their complaints and their bug reports and their whining, let them influence the next version with their wishes and their demands. You can wait until Mac OS X.II or X.IV or whatever and then get exactly what you want.

Your Mac OS 9.x doesn't die and disappear the day Mac OS X is released.

Why is it that some people who are willing enough to exist on the frontline of technology are unwilling to bear the small penalties of being there first?

This was inevitable... (1)

Have Blue (616) | more than 13 years ago | (#386446)

Despite all the hype and the progress, OS X is a 1.0 release. I personally will buy OS X 1.0, because I'm not really affected by any of the issues (no DVD drive, desktop Mac, etc).

But yes, I will dual-boot :)

Re:Not What You Think (2)

Danger Boy (15233) | more than 13 years ago | (#386448)

Every Mac I own has a DVD player. I've watched one DVD on a computer a year ago when my stereo was on the fritz. No big deal to me really. Unless of course the intent is to never offer support, which is something I haven't heard anywhere.

It would be nice to see it by the end of May though since I've got to fly to San Hose for WWDC and the plain flight is boring without the PowerBook and in flight movies.

OTOH It's funny to see major news outlets like MSNBC and CNet, etc... spewing more rumor and supposition than

Re:MSNBC (2)

wfberg (24378) | more than 13 years ago | (#386450)

Microsoft not only owns a stake in MSNBC, but also in.. Apple..
Maybe Apple is deliberately throwing the game, then?
Maybe not though..

They never learn (4)

ruebarb (114845) | more than 13 years ago | (#386451)

It's the same thing with every software development group rushing to meet a deadline - rush the product out the door, leave a few bugs in it, and pray the patience of your consumers doesn't give out before your programmers do

I expected better of Apple, though. This isn't Windows, after all, this is a company that has prided itself on stability, innovation, and creativity. To just push this out the door when prudence demands a few more weeks is just an attempt to boost stock value...too bad

Re:No DVD playback? - probable technical reason (5)

victim (30647) | more than 13 years ago | (#386452)

Got to the article too late to contribute, so I'll say it here.

The DVD license prevents Apple from making a DVD player to allows the DVD frames to be captured off the screen. Previous DVD players from Apple break things like `screen snapshot' to prevent this.

This makes a DVD player more complicated. Not only do you have to play a DVD, but you have to prevent a bunch of other unrelated features from working. Just the sort of cross functional integration that is difficult to perform during rapid development.

DVDs + Aqua (5)

DzugZug (52149) | more than 13 years ago | (#386453)

You can watch DVDs on Livid while running an Aqua Enlightenment theme although you will probably get sued six ways from Sunday.


toaster13 (36774) | more than 13 years ago | (#386455)

Good! Time for another group to experience shitty DVD support!

Nothing Uncommon/No big suprise (2)

LinuxOnHal (315199) | more than 13 years ago | (#386456)

Something that we all need to keep in mind, is that there's nothing uncommon about this. At the risk of getting flammed, this is something that M$ does, Apple has a tradition, and the Linux/Open Source community does this as well. Take a look at the 2.4 kernel and you'll see that there are things that did not quite make the deadline for the first release, but did however get included in future releases, I can think of several right off the top of my head, namely ReiserFS. I am by no means an Apple/Macintosh fan, but before the bashing begins, this should be something to keep in mind.

Re:This was inevitable... (1)

dr4ma (131729) | more than 13 years ago | (#386458)

I know its a long shot, but maybe classic 9 could use DVD software? I'm not much of a mac person but have become a big fan of the hardware.

DVD play back on a Mac on Linux (1)

divec (48748) | more than 13 years ago | (#386528)

Can you play DVDs on Mac Linux yet? That'd be a good piece of PR.

Another Artical (1)

skerner (207918) | more than 13 years ago | (#386530)

is here: l Can anyone name any large peice of software (as in more than 10 people working on it) that has come out within 6 months of it's target reliece date fully functional?


Have Blue (616) | more than 13 years ago | (#386533)

However, said other group has the option to boot back to a more primitive OS, although one that can play DVDs.

Hey, wait a minute... ;)

No DVD playback? (5)

JoeShmoe (90109) | more than 13 years ago | (#386534)

Geez, you'd think someone at Apple had seen the css-auth/decss code floating around, wouldn't you?

[/tongue in cheek]

- JoeShmoe

Linux (1)

NeMon'ess (160583) | more than 13 years ago | (#386537)

Too little too late...Or that would be true if MS wasn't so damn slow on their own to actually improve Windows. The only OS to be improving at a decent clip is Linux, may it kick both companies' asses and spur some innnovation on their part.

Re:This was inevitable... (1)

Jucius Maximus (229128) | more than 13 years ago | (#386540)

Does this mean that we'll see an OS X OSR 1 with DVD playing, OSR 2 with DVD burning, etc?

And all this time I thought that Micros~1 was following in Apple's footsteps!

O'Toole's Commentary on Murphy's Law:

Can run linux (1)

Zo0ok (209803) | more than 13 years ago | (#386543)

Shouldnt it be Mac OS X.1? That would make more sense.

If Apple delays their release even more chanses are I have got MOL and OMS running in Debain... they might lose a customer here... Hurry!

And the big deal is? (2)

BeerSlurpy (185482) | more than 13 years ago | (#386545)

I thought that DVD writing on the new MACs was crippled anyway, at least to the point that it didnt have access to certain CSS related regions of the disk. I heard, from elsewhere on slashdot, no less, that Apple had bent over backwards to get DVD Consortium support for dvd writing and authoring. I personally dont trust Apple's claims about the functionality of the new DVD features. All the important details are misssing, and it smells to me mostly of marketing hype.

Even if I completely trusted Apple not to mess up OS/X and the new macs, I would still be very leery of being an early adopter of a rushed product. Would you run out and buy a new computer from Compaq or Gateway with the latest beta build of Windows ME on it, in addition to never-before-seen hardware features?


Re:This was inevitable... (1)

pubpib (322120) | more than 13 years ago | (#386555)

Yes, we must give MS credit for the idea of updating software. Truly a fine example of the innovation we have come to expect.

Glitch vs Missing Feature... (1)

Incongruity (70416) | more than 13 years ago | (#386567)

From the article:
The initial 1.0 release -- code-named Cheetah -- that will be sold to consumers on March 24 will include most major features, but sources said users are likely to encounter a range of glitches. Apple's OS development team has deferred many of these nagging issues to the Puma release, scheduled to be installed on the summer's crop of new Mac hardware at July's Macworld Expo in New York. Topping the list of missing features, Cheetah will lack any support for DVD playback or authoring....

So which is it, a glitch or a choice on the part of Apple execs to rush the product out without features? In my-never-to-be-humble-opinion, a feature that has been left out is NOT a glitch, it may well be a flaw but a glitch is a different thing. New OS releases/updates always (at least in the case of MS and Apple) have bugs, which can be called glitches...but to call features intentionally left out of the release glitches confuses two seperate issues, as I see it.

Re:And the big deal is? (1)

mandelbaum (71505) | more than 13 years ago | (#386572)


you can do about 60 minutes.


Re:Another Artical (1)

zerocool^ (112121) | more than 13 years ago | (#386575)

Diakatana came out on time, and with all the expected updates and cutting edge graphics, along with excellent gameplay.


insert clever line here


redragon (161901) | more than 13 years ago | (#386576)

I'm not saying it isn't the case, they may very well be correct, but I think it needs to be said:

Consider the source...MSNBC.

As I said, might be totally valid, however one must also consider that MS probably has a bonus for every article bashing a competative OS.


Re: DVD support (1)

SpitefulBen (201793) | more than 13 years ago | (#386578)

I don't know why the lack of Apple DVD support is so awful. In all Windows releases, MS doesn't provide a DVD player. You have to buy one separetly. Apple will provide one in the future, and that's better than what MS provides. However, as a computer manufacturer Apple should be including a DVD player. But! Apple isn't shipping OS X on new computer on the 24th! By Summer or whenever they release computers with OS X standard, there almost certainly will be DVD support. What's the big deal?

Trust this kind of news to come from (1)

Miska (45422) | more than 13 years ago | (#386581)


Re:They never learn (1)

pubpib (322120) | more than 13 years ago | (#386587)

Apple has prided itself on stability?

Not in this reality.

Not What You Think (5)

MoNickels (1700) | more than 13 years ago | (#386591)

A. Dual-booting has always been an expected obligation until new versions of all the traditional Mac software are ported specifically OS X. Nobody but hack journalists are surprised. Most savvy Mac users consider this a real boon, as a kind of long-term protection measure for expensive software and years of skill investment. It eases the transition into the new Unix world.

B. As of the latest build, sleep functions on PowerBooks work perfectly, with two-second wake-up times. That's right: two seconds.

C. DVD playing is hardly a "key feature." DVD burning was *never* a key feature, nor was CD-RW. Until only recently this was always a third-party software opportunity.

D. That certain extra features will not be included is not a secret. Apple's been saying this for weeks: employees with real names and titles--not "sources"-- have been going on the record to point this out. Always interesting how much crappy information sounds like a real scoop if you conveniently can't dig up other places where Apple reps have gone on the record. Too easy just to accept the PR department's "no comment" without, say, reading stories on the exact same subject written elsewhere.

E. This article is a re-hash of an article that was on ZDNet and CNET last week. Notice the key bias words: inability, glitches, frustrate, annoying, frustrating, "not be able", "limit... usefulness", aggravation, lack. That's just in the headlines and first paragraph. Suspiciously like Linux reporting, eh?

Re:Nothing Uncommon/No big suprise (1)

pubpib (322120) | more than 13 years ago | (#386593)

Of course I'm not paying $130 for Linux.

And kernel 2.4 has *more* features than originally planned for.

The beta is good enough (3)

Temporal (96070) | more than 13 years ago | (#386595)

I am posting this from OSX beta. As far as I am concerned, what I have here is a fully functional (and beautiful!) operating system. I would use it full time if there were a few more apps available for it, but the OS itself does everything I need it to do. If the 1.0 release that lands on my doorstep on the 25th is as good as this or better, I will be happy. So, I don't see what the problem is...

BTW, my current main OS is Debian Linux w/KDE2.1.


xine on powerpc linux (3)

tobyjaffey (132850) | more than 13 years ago | (#386597)

Apparently xine [] now runs on PowerPC linux systems. The latest CVS version seems to have PowerPC targets, but only having X86 machines, I can't test it out. Grab the CVS with,
export t:/cvsroot/xine
cvs login
cvs -z3 co -P xine

I know that for X86 systems, I'm getting pretty much perfect (as far as I can tell) playback. It's better than WinDVD/PowerDVD anyway.

Mac OS X 1.1? (5)

logiceight (187269) | more than 13 years ago | (#386602)

Shouldn't it be Mac OS X.I?

Re:MSNBC (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 13 years ago | (#386603)

Hear, hear!!! I work with Unix, Linux, MS (coz I have to) and the Mac and let me tell you - MS OSs are by far the buggiest in the extreme. I have had the Mac OS X beta and NEVER did I ever see a core dump with casual use. And we all know that NOBODY can claim that for any 1.0 release, much less M$. You can see from the article too that the authors took extra pains to bash at every opportunity, actually repeating themselves over and over....

Re:MSNBC (1)

job0 (134689) | more than 13 years ago | (#386607)

Why does it need to be said? Why would msnbc agree to become a mouthpiece for MS and write blatantly untrue articles. They would soon lose credibility and end up in court.

Re:Prepare for crash dive (1)

BeerSlurpy (185482) | more than 13 years ago | (#386608)

Mod this gentleman up. This post is "Insightful."

Re: DVD support (1)

pubpib (322120) | more than 13 years ago | (#386609)

The big deal is that apple is falling way behind, and they nead to do everything they can to impress. Seeing that they are a "media OS," the lack of DVD support is not encouraging.

Re:MSNBC (1)

Dr. Weasel (33293) | more than 13 years ago | (#386611)

Err. No.
Microsoft doesn't controll the content. At least some of their writers (Brock Meeks for one) even have a clause in their contract freeing the reporter from the contract if they encounter any evidence of a Microsoft bias.

I remember when MSNBC first came on the air, they had a computer show called the Site. It was the only computer oriented TV show I ever liked. It was constantly critical of Microsoft products. Macs were generaly shown in a positive light. Although Cliff Stole got a bit obnoxious after a few episodes...

Re:Prepare for crash dive (1)

cehardin (163989) | more than 13 years ago | (#386612)

Well, all tech stocks seem to be in the tanks.
As for processor speed, the new G4s run at 733MHz, not 500MHz.
What alternative architectures are hurting Apple, PCI, AGP, USB, FireWire, PCMCIA, IDE?

As for Apple opening up their hardware, i don't know, maybe, it won't happen though.

As for their software, OS X is quite open, you even have GNUstep which is striving for Mac OS X compatibility.

Surviving "Mission Impossible" Projects (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 13 years ago | (#386613)

My advice for Apple developers is to get a copy of Death March: The Complete Software Developer's Guide to Surviving "Mission Impossible" Projects []

This is an excellent book for developers working on projects gone wrong. It looks like this Apple project will continue to be a very bumpy ride. Author Ed Yourdon puts it this way:

Death march projects are becoming increasingly common in the software industry. The symptoms are obvious: The project schedule, budget, and staff are about half of what is necessary for completion. The planned feature set is unrealistic. People are working 14 hours a day, six or seven days a week, and stress is taking its toll. The project has a high risk of failure, yet management is either blind to the situation or has no alternative. Why do these irrational projects happen, and what, other than pure idiocy, leads people to get involved in them?
Much of this description is eerily similar to Apple's OS X project. Almost a foreboding of things to come.

Re:Prepare for crash dive (1)

active8or (98950) | more than 13 years ago | (#386614)

It is not stuck on 500 MHz, and is not lagging that much behind. We now run at 733MHz, and faster prosessors are to be expected more frequently from Apple now.

GeForce 3 is not to be forgotten, and the G4 has some trix up the sleeve. The main attraction tho' is thill the operating system of the Mac. Take a look at: []

- Knut S.

Only missing one thing (1)

Soong (7225) | more than 13 years ago | (#386617)

Drivers. As I write this from MacOS X Public Beta on my iBook, I wish I had a driver for my wireless ethernet card, and I wish I had a driver for my fire wire camera. I wish ATI would port their TV watching app so that I can watch TV under MacOS X on my G4 desktop with XClaim VR 128.

DVD? I hardly ever do that. A reboot will be tolerable.

Re:Prepare for crash dive (2)

Snocone (158524) | more than 13 years ago | (#386618)

Processor speed is stuck at 500 MHz

ahem. []

Hell, iMacs are 600 MHz these days.

Not a bad troll otherwise, but getting the obvious stuff wrong is a pretty clear tipoff...

Re:And the big deal is? (4)

-Harlequin- (169395) | more than 13 years ago | (#386620)

Fuck off troll.

I don't think it's trolling to note Apple's crippling of the first consumer DVD writer. It might not be entirely on topic, but I think it is VERY important that this kind of crippleware shit doesn't become acceptable practise in the industry. And the first step to preventing acceptance of hardware designed to erode civil rights is having people know what the glossy brochures won't tell you.
The cripples are going beyond what is necessary for "piracy prevention". The drive in question is designed to prevent its owners and users from doing things they have every right to do - legally and morally - but which would not be in the interests of major content owners.

I'm starting to fear the day when court-confirmed consumer rights of timeshifting, fair use, etc, mean nothing because the devices on the market are designed to restrict such activities when not in the interests of content owners. This drive is by no means the first step taken on this road, but as the first consumer DVD writer, it is an important step, and any true Apple fan should be nervous (if not utterly disgusted) that Apple has decided that its user's artistic and creative freedoms are less important than wooing MPAA members and the like.

Sure, movies on my computer are nice, but the reason I buy computers is to create, and I don't like the smell of a future where my own creations are deemed pirated by my own hardware.

(Which brings with it a whiff of conspiracy theory: if you're the MPAA and want to maintain your captive buyers (rather than have to compete with free (or low cost) home-grown broadband-distributed content 5 years from now, a bit like M$ now having to compete with Linux), then having consumer gear automatically deem amature productions as "pirated" and so impede their reproduction might be killing two birds with one stone. It doesn't exactly seem all that accidental...)

The hardware is open (1)

pubpib (322120) | more than 13 years ago | (#386622)

The specs for Apple hardware is open. How do you think Linux manages to run on modern Macs - they conform to that CHRP spec.

Any company can go build a CHRP machine. IBM even tried to encourage it a few years ago. I don't think you'll find Apple licensing their OS to anyone for clones, but that doesn't bother me that much.

Forget DVD Support.... (2)

MrDalliard (130400) | more than 13 years ago | (#386623)

...I'd just like to be able to print! The Beta had no real support at all....

Printing support seems to be really sorely lacking. I've not heard HP say anything (yet) about releasing carbonised or X native drivers, so it looks like that dual boot is going to be very well used.

Chance are that I'll install it and not touch it much until sufficient support comes my way.


Completely different (1)

Craig Davison (37723) | more than 13 years ago | (#386624)

OS X is more like Debian 3.0 than it is like kernel 2.4. People need to stop thinking of "new kernel" as "new stable platform". The distribution is the platform.

That said, I won't expect anything major will be intentionally left out of Debian 3.0, FreeBSD 6.0 or OpenBSD 3.0. The release sins of Microsoft and Apple do not apply to open source distributions.

Re:Not What You Think (1)

PCM2 (4486) | more than 13 years ago | (#386625)

Dual-booting has always been an expected obligation until new versions of all the traditional Mac software are ported specifically OS X.

Actually, I thought Apple's Classic environment was supposed to take care of this problem.

OK, OK. For someone who's actually used the Classic environment, I realize this comment may come off as somewhat facetious.

Well, blow me down. (2)

PCM2 (4486) | more than 13 years ago | (#386627)

Did anybody really expect that, beginning March 24, 2001, every Mac user would be using Mac OS X?

Come on, now. This OS won't go mainstream for another year, at least.

Re:Can run linux (1)

Cryptnotic (154382) | more than 13 years ago | (#386629)

Actually, I think it would need to be called OS X.I.


Re:Not What You Think (1)

Glonk (103787) | more than 13 years ago | (#386630)

C. DVD playing is hardly a "key feature." DVD burning was *never* a key feature, nor was CD-RW. Until only recently this was always a third-party software opportunity.
DVD playing became a key feature since Apple began rolling out the marketing on the superdrive on the new G4s, which reads and writes DVDs. Granted, not many people would use this. It's not very fun to watch DVDs while sitting at your computer desk (yes, TV-out is an option, but still...bleagh -- and data DVDs aren't too common yet :P). The DVD burning speed is probably something atrocious like 0.25x.

Apple made DVD playing and writing a major selling point for its computers, so not having this in the initial release is a bit of a kick in the pants.

Re:Another Artical (1)

The_Messenger (110966) | more than 13 years ago | (#386632)

Yes, and Romero really did make me suck it down.


Re:Solaris will take over a lot of the desktop mar (1)

The_Messenger (110966) | more than 13 years ago | (#386633)

LO-fucking-L... great troll.


Sure, leave out the important stuff (2)

Craig Davison (37723) | more than 13 years ago | (#386634)

From the article:

Among the other problems with the March release, sources said, is that it won't take full advantage of multiprocessing systems or new video accelerators, such as Nvidia's recently announced GeForce 3 or ATI's Radeon.

Limited support for MP, and broken graphics acceleration for the Radeon, which is over a year old now.

Hmm... Wasn't MP identified as a critically important feature a few months ago when The Pentium and Athlon doubled the clock speed of the fastest G4? Weren't Mac users overjoyed that their favourite tools were no longer going to require application-level support to run on more than one processor?

And can you imagine the new UI without video acceleration? Can you imagine doing realtime 3D at all without video acceleration?

Re:Prepare for crash dive (1)

PCM2 (4486) | more than 13 years ago | (#386638)

There are legions of corporations and individuals who have been disrespected by Apple--from the BeOS community to the Apple clone industry, all of whom comprise a form
The BeOS community is a formidable enemy? Come on. If Jean-Louis Gassee was so indispensible to the future of computing, Apple wouldn't have canned his ass to begin with.

Power Comuting is a formidable enemy? The people whose primary contributions to the Mac hardware platform were unsupported OEM CD-ROM drives, PS/2 keyboards, and the standard VGA port? (Okay, I'll give you the last one -- but Apple even ships those, now.)

Open up its hardware specs and software so that where now exists little more than a corporate cult, there might exist a vibrant autonomous industry of developers, hackers, and hardware vendors.
I hear this argument a lot. I don't get it. Why would opening up Apple's platform lead to more support? The world already has Linux. Linux is much more mature on Intel hardware than on the Mac/PowerPC. Why would having a mature, open source OS that ran on Mac hardware make people want to concentrate their efforts on the Mac instead of Intel? Even if Apple made the Mac ROMs public domain, why would that inspire people to use them instead of the Intel platform, which currently has a larger installed base than any other form of PC hardware? Especially if you're talking about the consumer market (Apple's primary targer) ... it doesn't make any sense.

The only reason Power Computing met with any success at all in the Mac clone market was because they sensed there was demand for lower-cost hardware that ran this closed source OS. Take away the closed source OS, and the need for the "clone" hardware goes away too.

The only reason for an open source Mac OS is because you don't think Apple's hardware is being used well enough. Take away Apple's hardware, and the need for the OS disappears as well.

What Apple is doing now with OS X is continuing to do what it does best -- try to provide the consumer with an all-inclusive computing platform. You buy Apple's hardware, you get Apple's OS. It's a packaged product. Just because it isn't currently well-suited for tinkering, doesn't mean it should be.

Re:Can run linux (1)

FunkyChild (99051) | more than 13 years ago | (#386639)

I call it "Mac OH-SEX" :)

News at 11 (1)

31: (144084) | more than 13 years ago | (#386640)

A microsoft based web publication disses the next major Mac OS.

Oh, and that OS is based on unix. Huh... so a unix based system that's easy to use isn't liked by ms press... that is surprising.

I'm not ashamed. It's the computer age, nerds are in.
They're still in, aren't they?

Open Source (1)

Morth (322218) | more than 13 years ago | (#386641)

Well not quite a reply but I wanted to point out that much of Mac OS X, including the kernel, is Open Source. It actually runs on x86 (though there's no binary distribution yet). The only thing that's not open is the GUI and most of the programs that use it.

There's actually nothing stopping a 3rd party to make the kernel run on their hardware and then letting people buy Mac OS X to install the GUI over it. Nothing except that they have to use PPC and give their patches to Apple that is.


Re:This was inevitable... (1)

robbieduncan (87240) | more than 13 years ago | (#386642)

I'm afraid not. Apple's DVD software makes direct hardware calls and is not supported by clasic. Need to reboot to a real OS9 environment for it to run. :(

Re:Can run linux (1)

robbieduncan (87240) | more than 13 years ago | (#386643)

It's Mac OS 10 1.0 Then Mac OS 10 1.1 Stupid, but thats what they want to call it.

Re:Prepare for crash dive (1)

Xenex (97062) | more than 13 years ago | (#386644)

If Jean-Louis Gassee was so indispensible to the future of computing, Apple wouldn't have canned his ass to begin with.

Most Mac Evangelists would consider Steve Jobs to be indispensible to Apple's future. Apple NEVER canned his ass to begin with, did they?

Apple has never been a company to be able to pick which people will be good for computers (and Apple themselves) in the future. Gassée still around in the computer industry, and BeIA is just starting to take off. Pity the OS had to be put so far back on the backburner. (And I have to defend Jean-Louis, I use a quote of his in my sig to show that my posts are an opinion ;)

I'd own a Mac now if they still ran BeOS (I use 3 OS's: Windows, BeOS, and Linux. I'd happily replace Windows with OS X). However, Apple killed BeOS off on their platform. People will argue that Apple can't port OS X to Intel because they are a hardware company. If Apple are primarily a hardware company, why did they fear, and thus kill off, an operating system on their platform? If Apple make their money off hardware, wouldn't another OS attract people to their platform? I guess Apple want it both ways - total control of the hardware and the software, even though if they'd loosened up on the software side and just allowed BeOS to merly EXIST, their Macintosh sales would have been at least one unit higher - I'd be using a Mac right now.

But Apple don't want me to buy a Mac, because they don't want me running BeOS.

Re:MSNBC (1)

ebyrob (165903) | more than 13 years ago | (#386645)

Naa... they aren't biased. Their reporting merely exhibits the same skill and knowledge M$ uses when crafting their $oftware.

The $oftware doesn't care. It'll crash anyways.

Re: DVD support (1)

Teun (17872) | more than 13 years ago | (#386646)

Windows Media Player WILL play DVD's, it's crude but works.

this could be worse than you think... (5)

The_Messenger (110966) | more than 13 years ago | (#386647)

First: is this true? I mean, MSNBC isn't my first stop for Apple-related news, but you'd think they'd be more credible than sites like MacOS Rumours and

If it's true, then normally I'd be inclined to say that there is no such thing as "bad publicity", and minor complaints such as these might even make more average users aware of OS X.

But, because this is an Apple product, things are different. Lack of DVD support may not sound like a big deal to the few Linux users and hoards of Linux-wannabes on Slashdot, but to the Mac-crowd, it is a big fucking deal. The only thing they've ever had to be proud of is excellent multimedia, and Apple will take a lot of heat if OS X ships without DVD. This may also turn away a lot of Windows users who are thinking of trying it out... I know a Windows (and sometimes Unix) user at the office who is really psyched about getting a Titanium G4 Powerbook when OS X is released, but I'd bet money that if he hears OS X can't play DVDs, he'll put off buying it. (And why shouldn't he? The wide-screen DVD player functionality is one of the most-hyped cool things about the Titanium G4 Powerbook.) I'd also bet money that if he puts-off buying it, he'll end up losing the excitement and he'll never buy it.

Some of you also seem to think that very few Mac users are even interested in using OS X so soon. Not so. I know several Mac users, and knowing their clannish nature and love of "shiny things", they'll all want to be the first on their block to have the latest MacOS. Something missing as basic as DVD support will be a huge turn-off. They'll think, "Hey, I guess everyone was right about how archaic Unix is after all! Apple let us down and backed a shitty technology." Once the press hears that even die-hard Mac zombies are unimpressed, there will be even less Windows users interested in taking it for a spin.

If Apple is smart (and I'm not holding my breath), they will not release OS X until it's really done. DVD support can't wait for the first service pack.

Personally, I'm a Sun guy. (And my Blade 100 will be joining the LAN next week, baby!) But... OS X really had me hoping that the Holy Grail (Unix with a pretty face) had finally arrived. I'll admit it; the hardware is dead sexy, and if they had software to match, I'd order a G4 Cube tomorrow. I think it'd be a crying shame if Apple started following Microsoft's practice of releasing software that needs a year's worth of service packs to be usable.


Re:Forget DVD Support.... (2)

DrXym (126579) | more than 13 years ago | (#386648)

They should just licence Ghostscript or use the GPL version and be done with it.

It's MSnbc... what d'ya expect? (1)

curious.corn (167387) | more than 13 years ago | (#386649)

Ho ho, this piece is just an amusing example of FUD. I wouldn't expect anything else from M$... I simply can't help remembering the innocuous glitches win2000 suffered @ it's launch (and still does) The most amusing were: certain M$ mouses would wreck so much havoc to the point that the only solution was to REPEAT installation and not to attach the HW ever again. Same story for some NIC cards... but it probably was old outdated hadrware; pity it used to work before w200 (;-)) took posession of the machine. It's just a shame that M$ discontinued NT support now you'll have to FSCK your whole LAN... but that's just a minor glitch... DVD playback works great so when your office grinds to a halt you can watch the latest MPAA pill while waiting for the M$ drone to come (and tell you you have to upgrade everything down to the power cord ;-))

Re:DVDs + Aqua (2)

Voltage_Gate (69001) | more than 13 years ago | (#386650)

And don't forget, you can always watch DVDs even without a player. Most people don't appreciate the beauty of small shiney objects. But you can see your reflection on the playing side, and I always find that really excititng.

Copland (2)

green pizza (159161) | more than 13 years ago | (#386651)

I love my PowerBook and all, but this has got me kinda edgy. DVD is a pretty big thing and I can understand why the press is reporting this. What I want to know is how many seemingly little things wont make it in this first release. Something like ColorSync may be of little use to a home user, but graphic artists depend on it. How much else will be missing from the initial release? I'm sure DVD support isn't the only thing.

In a related note, I still can't help but think about Copland. At first it was most likely going to support even my IIfx (68030 @ 40 MHz). Then it was going to require a PowerMac. Then it was canceled. Rhapsody/OS X was announced and would probably require a PPC 603 or 604 Mac. Now it's going to require a G3.

BTW, I know that Copland != Rhapsody/OS X, but did ya know that Copland, even with debug code, used less than 8 MB RAM in the DR0 release?

Re:Completely different (1)

core10k (196263) | more than 13 years ago | (#386652)

Do you mean like the sin of releasing an operating system worth using?

I find it funny (1)

Liquid-Gecka (319494) | more than 13 years ago | (#386653)

that MSNBC, 'a Microsoft-NBC joint venture' would be reporting problems with OSX with such flare. "early users will find a list of glitches that range from annoying to frustrating" and "Other gaps, ..., also will limit the new OS' usefulness to certain users", and thats just in the first paragraph)

Re:Nothing Uncommon/No big suprise (2)

grammar nazi (197303) | more than 13 years ago | (#386654)

Just some friendly grammar help from the friendly grammar nazi:

1. New software that has been announced or marketed but has not been produced.
2. Products announced far in advance of any release (which may or may not actually take place). The term came from Atari users and was later used by Infoworld to Microsoft's continuous lying about Microsoft Windows.
3. Products announced far in advance of any release (which may or may not actually take place). See also brochureware.

Planned but non-existent product like vaporware, but with the added implication that marketing is actively selling and promoting it (they've printed brochures). Brochureware is often deployed as a strategic weapon; the idea is to con customers into not committing to an existing product of the competition's. It is a safe bet that when a brochureware product finally becomes real, it will be more expensive than and inferior to the alternatives that had been available for years.

1.A decrease, decline, or relaxation, as of effort or energy.
2.A disappointment: The cancellation of the game was a real letdown.
3.The descent made by an aircraft in order to land.

Hype, slang
.Excessive publicity and the ensuing commotion: the hype surrounding the murder trial.
2.Exaggerated or extravagant claims made especially in advertising or promotional material: "It is pure hype, a gigantic PR job" (Saturday Review).
3.An advertising or promotional ploy: "Some restaurant owners in town are cooking up a $75,000 hype to promote New York as `Restaurant City, U.S.A.'" (New York).
4.Something deliberately misleading; a deception: " [He] says that there isn't any energy crisis at all, that it's all a hype, to maintain outrageous profits for the oil companies" (Joel Oppenheimer).

lust (to describe my feeling for a Ti Powerbook running OS X):
To have an intense or obsessive desire, especially one that is sexual.

I'm as dissappointeed at the ballyhoo as anybody, because I am waiting for OS X to come out and then I'm going to buy a Ti PowerBook. After 4 years away from the Mac OS, I was finally going to switch back..

Think they'll charge for the update? (1)

Cloud K (125581) | more than 13 years ago | (#386655)

There doesn't seem to be much missing. A little bit of DVD stuff, a few other small bits. In theory, they should do a free update when they've properly finished it :) But being a long-suffering Windows user I wouldn't expect that. Microsoft would re-package the "full" version, call it Second Edition and charge $70 for the upgrade. Is this the kind of thing Apple would do, or would they make it free?

Re:Prepare for crash dive (2)

i, Mac (1975) | more than 13 years ago | (#386656)

No, Apple did not kill off BeOS for their platform. BeOS killed off their OS for the Macintosh platform.

Oddly enough, this dropping of support came just a short while after a big investment by Intel.

The LinuxPPC guys have had NO problem keeping up with the Motorola chips and the Apple motherboards. Why should Be? Why, for that matter, couldn't they just look at how LinuxPPC handles all that stuff and reimplement for themselves?

Be perpetuates this little lie on and on, but make no mistake, JLG decided to go wholly Intel. Apple may not have been very cooperative with him, but he made the decision.

So Xenex, why don't you ask JLG why he doesn't want to run BeOS on the Mac platform? Why don't you ask JLG why they can't/won't keep up with Apple equipment when LinuxPPC and some BSD teams HAVE NO PROBLEM?

But let go of the idea that Apple killed BeOS on Macs. Apple didn't.

Re:Sure, leave out the important stuff (5)

DrWiggy (143807) | more than 13 years ago | (#386657)

SMP is not as important as you think, because there aren't very many multi-processor systems available right now. In fact, it's almost impossible to get one. By the summer, the machines will be more commonly available, and THEN it gets important as to what the OS does with it. At the moment with 9.1, SMP just isn't going to work. With OS X, it'll work, just not as well as they know they can make it.

The video support stuff is troll. I'm running OS X right now besides me on an original first-generation iBook. It has no fancy card, no fancy drivers, just straight out of the box Public Beta code. The interface runs just fine. I'm not using it to try and get 32645256 fps so it's just fine. Seeing as there probably won't be any real major game releases until later in the Spring/early Summer, the accelerated video is not as important as you think it is.

At the end of the day, Apple has seen the light (for they have found the Love of Unix). They have also made a realisation that MS hasn't - at the consumer level, all the gizmos and tweeks don't matter, because they aren't competeing with MS or Linux, or anybody else in that market. Jobs has already stated Apple's biggest competitor from here on in is Sony. Go figure. Plus, they're not going to do what MS did with various OS releases and pretend everything is fine only to let users and OEMs realise it isn't.

People are seeing this as them releasing an "unfinished" OS, but I really have to say - when was the last time you saw a finished OS? Would people get really upset if Linus turned around one day and said "OK, we're going to go to kernel 3.0 within the year and it's going to have 'X', 'Y' and 'Z' in it" and then a few weeks before launch he turns around and says "look, Z is a bit screwed right now, and we really want to get X and Y working properly first"? What if X and Y were going to completely redefine Linux, the computing market as a whole, and take everybody off into a new direction, and Z was support for a particular grpahics card?

All of this seems to me like overplaying the lack of some features that don't need to be there right now in a poor FUD campaign. Pity. Undermines the integrity of people like MSNBC (as if I ever believed they had any integrity).

It worked for Jobs at macworld (1)

discovercomics (246851) | more than 13 years ago | (#386658)

Didn't Steve demo dvd functionality when he showed of the OS at Macworld? Maybe they just need to get the version of OSX that was running on his machine.

Re:Not What You Think (2)

stripes (3681) | more than 13 years ago | (#386659)

A. Dual-booting has always been an expected obligation until new versions of all the traditional Mac software are ported specifically OS X. Nobody but hack journalists are surprised. Most savvy Mac users consider this a real boon, as a kind of long-term protection measure for expensive software and years of skill investment. It eases the transition into the new Unix world.

No. Some applications starting up clasic under OSX for you, and running there is expected. Having to reboot into OS9 is not expected, and IMHO not acceptable. MacDraw 0.8 for the 68000 runs in the compatability box for crying out loud, why can't the DVD player at least do as well as software Apple wrote over 15 years ago for a diffrent CPU!

B. As of the latest build, sleep functions on PowerBooks work perfectly, with two-second wake-up times. That's right: two seconds.

Seems to be faster then that. Normally faster then I can open the lid enough to see the screen. They might be playing a trick and repainting a saved screen beofre getting the apps live though.

C. DVD playing is hardly a "key feature." DVD burning was *never* a key feature, nor was CD-RW. Until only recently this was always a third-party software opportunity.

It is when Apple targets the video market (makers of comercials, and movies). Plus I payed Apple to get a DVD player on a portable, I expect them to make it work. Even if it has to run in the compatibility box.

I'll give you D and E though.

Old news. (3)

sordid (322222) | more than 13 years ago | (#386660)

This news is over a week old. Firstly it came from .. then moved onto cnet (which is actually the article M$NBC used). I'm not supprised MSNBC would run this on behalf of M$'s request. After all, I'm sure that M$ aren't happy that Apple claim OSX to be the most advanced operating system in the world, amoungst other reasons. From a critical analysis point of view, the article is poor and only highlights weaknesses in the product (if they are even weaknesses comparitively) and does not give a rounded opinion of any strengths. Such articles can in all probability be dismissed as biased. The operating system can only be really judged on its success once it has been released.

Re:Not What You Think (3)

Syberghost (10557) | more than 13 years ago | (#386661)

C. DVD playing is hardly a "key feature."

On any model with a DVD drive it certainly is. I'm curious as to your reasoning behind this statement.


Re:Sure, leave out the important stuff (2)

stripes (3681) | more than 13 years ago | (#386662)

SMP is not as important as you think, because there aren't very many multi-processor systems available right now. In fact, it's almost impossible to get one. By the summer, the machines will be more commonly available, and THEN it gets important as to what the OS does with it. At the moment with 9.1, SMP just isn't going to work. With OS X, it'll work, just not as well as they know they can make it.

Lots of high end PhotoShop users have multiprocessor systems. I think most are 3rd party (sort of supported by Apple through a really unfriendly API -- one of the few not available in Carbon).

It is also really really odd that a MACH kernel won't multitask, that was one of the key research areas for MACH. I wonder if they mean there is no fine-grained SMP (i.e. not much better then a "one big lock kernel") -- if so it is way better then OS9's multi-CPU support (one CPU is limited to a tiny handful of kernel calls *ever*, and that is user visable, threads are bound to CPUs, and any CPU other then the primary one can baiscally only send messages to threads on the other CPUs to ask them to do OS calls).

Re:Forget DVD Support.... (2)

stripes (3681) | more than 13 years ago | (#386663)

...I'd just like to be able to print! The Beta had no real support at all....

Eh? I've been using all the printers at work just great. Granted they are all PostScript LPRNG printers, but it was super-trivial to set them up.

Apple wishing it had purchased BE! (1)

dolbywan_kenobi (168484) | more than 13 years ago | (#386664)

No matter how much I hate being an armchair businessman... I think Apple wishes it had purchased BE instead of going with NeXT.

Re:Well, blow me down. (2)

stripes (3681) | more than 13 years ago | (#386665)

Did anybody really expect that, beginning March 24, 2001, every Mac user would be using Mac OS X?

Of corse not. Not without most of their applications running naitave (outside of the Clasic box). I did expect everything the devlopers needed to do ports to be there. That the apps could be rolled out on that release (or minor patches thereof), and users could move when their apps got moved.

I didn't expect Apple to still be dicking with the UI in January. I didn't expect major peripherals to be unsupported. In short I didn't expect Apple to blow the release date a 5th (or so) time. I guess I'm pretty dumb.

The slashdot consensus on Apple (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 13 years ago | (#386666)

Apple investors should liquidate the company, OpenSource(tm) OSX, and take back every piece of hardware ever sold and replace it for free with an overclocked AMD Athlon with Linux running Debian, a copy of Quake 3, and napster.

How DARE they not give me something for free.

Or maybe is the MPAA? (1)

Midnight Thunder (17205) | more than 13 years ago | (#386671)

Maybe Apple does have the DVD software ready, but the MPAA has now decided that there is even better way to fustrate people - don't license to anybody Unix based.

Who watches DVDs on a computer anyway. (1)

oncee (216065) | more than 13 years ago | (#386673)

I own an iMacDVD and I never watch DVD's on it anyway. I've been using OSX since it's release and it rocks. The biggest problem new users will have is getting use to the new interface. I look foward to OSX 1.0.

Re:Forget DVD Support.... (1)

Knobby (71829) | more than 13 years ago | (#386675)

There is roughly 120MB of printer drivers included in the later betas. This includes printer drivers for USB printers from HP, Canon, and Epson. There are also a couple folders for PPDs and PPD plugins, which are currently empty. Don't worry about printing, that will definitely be ready to go..

Re:this could be worse than you think... (2)

stripes (3681) | more than 13 years ago | (#386676)

Damm, I really hoped was a real site.

OS X really had me hoping that the Holy Grail (Unix with a pretty face) had finally arrived. I'll admit it; the hardware is dead sexy, and if they had software to match, I'd order a G4 Cube tomorrow.

Yeah, I'm a long time Unix guy also. I got a G3 PowerBook and OSX PB. I'm pretty damm happy with it for a beta. It is missing DVD support, and iMovie seems not to work right. I can live with that (it makes a rocking wireless web and ssh and mail client -- the internal 802.11 and antenna rocks). As a Unix head the missing features are only an irratation. A pretty big one. But I still like the G3 beter then the Viao 505JS I had before.

Slashdot contributes to FUD (1)

firewort (180062) | more than 13 years ago | (#386679)

Guys, you actually BOUGHT the M$NBC article?
They're only re-writing the reviews at focusing on negatives. Hmmm, now *whyever* would they do that?

*Fear: DVD and many other features lacking.

*Uncertainty: Users won't want to live without these features and will either suffer reboots or not use it.

*Doubt: NO ONE will use Mac Os X (pronouced 'ten.')and it will become a big failure the day it's announced. As a result, Apple will give up making computers once and for all, and resort to manufacturing Dalmation School Supplies and Translucent/Transparent Cube Office Supplies, the first of which shall be a kleenex box. Note, that the Office Supplies will be returned by users who don't want mold lines in their kleenex boxes.

Spreading FUD on the basis of Web sites using internal builds not ready for public consumption is ridiculous. I'm not surprised in the least to see M$NBC and ZdNET do it, because I can't consider them news sources of good repute.

<sarcasm> Oh, wait, I'm at slashdot, the goat-worthy news site!</sarcasm>

It's great to post positive news about emerging technology, and it's fine to post negatives about emerging technology, but posting FUD using information on INTERNAL BUILDS is wrong. It's not journalism, it's sensationalism.

Thanks, Slashdot Editors!

A host is a host from coast to coast, but no one uses a host that's close

Re:this could be worse than you think... (2)

the eric conspiracy (20178) | more than 13 years ago | (#386680)

DVD support can't wait for the first service pack.

I would much rather have MacOS X now and wait for DVD functionality. I have to deploy this thing, and want to do a lot of testing first. And if it's like the DVD functionality in the current Mac OS it isn't that good anyway.

Also, Apple doesn't do service packs. They issue updates to various packages between OS updates.


F**k DVD (1)

LennyDotCom (26658) | more than 13 years ago | (#386682)

you seem to be missing one minor detail.
Not all macs have DVD accually I'd say MOST don't.
Mine does but I never even watched a DVD on it.
(I did use it to load SuSE on virtual PC )
I think Apple is doin the right thing releasing it now


Re:Only missing one thing (1)

robbieduncan (87240) | more than 13 years ago | (#386684)

What wireless card are you using on an iBook. I am writing this from an iBook on Airport runing OSX PB. There is a comonally known xml driver file you can put into your system to enable Airport. :)

Incorrect facts WAS Re:Prepare for crash dive (2)

firewort (180062) | more than 13 years ago | (#386685)

Processors are stuck at 733mhz, not 500...
considering the recent leap to 733, I'd have to say that processor speeds are not stuck at all.
Behind your Intel-driven expectations, perhaps, but not stuck.

You only concern yourself with Motorola's processor woes, ignoring the fact that IBM is taking over Apple's processor supply, in iBook, North American iMac, and later this year (don't ask me how I know, I can't tell you), the PowerMac and PowerBook.

Your reasonable suggestion isn't really that reasonable- you just want everything to open up, regardless of the impact.

IBM has opened up several valuable ideas, developed and contributed to open-source and free software technologies, and yet they don't open up *everything.*

Your argument is flawed and to see your incorrect statement of facts moderated at Informative only reveals the lack of your knowledge and the lack of the Moderator's knowledge on the subject.

A host is a host from coast to coast, but no one uses a host that's close

Gee (1)

SpanishInquisition (127269) | more than 13 years ago | (#386686)

It's interesting to see how fast they can come up with a new hardware design concept but how long is it for them to realese a decent OS. Maybe software is not a thing for them.
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